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| Re: Hard Drives [message #253937 is a reply to message #253915] |
Mon, 02 June 2014 11:45   |
Bruce Johnson
Messages: 319
Registered: August 2012
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On Jun 2, 2014, at 4:05 AM, Alex Sciortino <zeosrule@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello! Today I made an interesting observation and was wondering if anybody else has had the same experience. Today the 6mo old HDD in my MBP failed, but I have the original 320gb in a PM G5 and even an original 13gb HDD in a iMac G3 still running with out issues. I have had quite a few HDDs that were newish fail in the past few years. Thanks!
It's a consequence of the bottom falling out of HDD prices, and the staggeringly high rate of HDD size increase, I expect.
Engineering corners are being cut to keep prices low, and hardware is pushed to the limit to do things like put 1TB on one drive platter.
I'd wager that 320GB one has two platters, and that 13 GB one may even have 4. This means larger, more mechanically rugged read heads, and beefier mechanicals to move all that mass around.
The controllers will have more discrete, physically larger components. More mass == more thermal mass to deal with heat and power.
In the days when you could charge $400 for a HDD, QC could be much more thorough than when you can charge < $100.
--
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs
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| Re: Hard Drives [message #253957 is a reply to message #253937] |
Mon, 02 June 2014 13:02 |
peterhaas
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> It's a consequence of the bottom falling out of HDD prices, and the
> staggeringly high rate of HDD size increase, I expect.
AND, dropping the size (thickness) from 12.5mm (although a few of those
are still around) to 9.5mm, or less.
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| Re: Hard Drives [message #253958 is a reply to message #253957] |
Mon, 02 June 2014 13:34 |
Bruce Johnson
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On Jun 2, 2014, at 10:02 AM, peterhaas@cruzio.com wrote:
>>
>> It's a consequence of the bottom falling out of HDD prices, and the
>> staggeringly high rate of HDD size increase, I expect.
>
> AND, dropping the size (thickness) from 12.5mm (although a few of those
> are still around) to 9.5mm, or less.
This is directly related to reducing the number of platters and the thickness of platters as well. In the end it's futile race, because solid state drives are also plummeting in price and leaping up in size, and since they're only limited by solid state fabrication techniques, they'll be a lot more reliable...when was the last time you had RAM go bad?
--
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs
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| Re: Hard Drives [message #253974 is a reply to message #253958] |
Mon, 02 June 2014 15:23 |
Nesta Nesta
Messages: 11
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On 14-06-02 11:34 AM, Bruce Johnson wrote:
> This is directly related to reducing the number of platters and the thickness of platters as well. In the end it's futile race, because solid state drives are also plummeting in price and leaping up in size, and since they're only limited by solid state fabrication techniques, they'll be a lot more reliable...when was the last time you had RAM go bad?
This is all very good discussion. Wonderful information here. Thanks a
lot guys! Perhaps we could move it along more to the point of practical
information, if folks could pitch in with specs to look for when buying
modern hard drives. Most people simply go for size these days, but as
Bruce and others have pointed, that could indeed be the curse. So, what
tech specs must one keep in mind, folks?
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| Re: Hard Drives [message #253975 is a reply to message #253974] |
Mon, 02 June 2014 15:42 |
Alex Sciortino
Messages: 32
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On Jun 2, 2014 12:23 PM, "Nestamicky" <nestamicky@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 14-06-02 11:34 AM, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>>
>> This is all very good discussion. Wonderful information here. Thanks a
lot guys! Perhaps we could move it along more to the point of practical
information, if folks could pitch in with specs to look for when buying
modern hard drives. Most people simply go for size these days, but as Bruce
and others have pointed, that could indeed be the curse. So, what tech
specs must one keep in mind, folks?
>
That is a good point. What should we look for to ensure we get a reliable
HDD
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| Re: Hard Drives [message #253976 is a reply to message #253974] |
Mon, 02 June 2014 15:53 |
Bruce Johnson
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On Jun 2, 2014, at 12:23 PM, Nestamicky <nestamicky@gmail.com> wrote:
> Most people simply go for size these days, but as Bruce and others have pointed, that could indeed be the curse. So, what tech specs must one keep in mind, folks?
Sadly, for the majority of the models under discussion here the answer is 'See if you can find a 7200 rpm drive'. These systems are cursed with obsolete technology.
IDE-based SSD's are tiny and hugely expensive, 7200 RPM drives are getting scarce, particularly for laptops, but even in 3.5" models.
You can put good, fast SSD's in a G5 tower, and for a boot volume this probably make sense, since you can keep the older, slower drives for data.
Making sure you have a good, current backup is probably the very best strategy; this makes it much less of an issue when a drive dies.
But basically, the best possible speed-up strategy for a G3-G5 system is to move to an Intel Mac :-/
There you have a host of solutions: for instance a modern Mini with an SSD is like a different critter than the stock ones with their dog-slow 5400 RPM HDD's. Boot times go to seconds, from minutes, and Disk IO can finally keep up with the CPU and network IO, especially if they're on a gigabit network.
Also these drives are vastly cheaper:
< http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=20-721-108&a mp;nm_mc=EMC-GD051914&cm_mmc=EMC-GD051914-_-index-_-Item -_-20-721-108> These were on sale for $104 a couple weeks ago. (get on their email list you can sometimes score awesome deals).
--
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs
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| Re: Hard Drives [message #254015 is a reply to message #253974] |
Mon, 02 June 2014 20:11 |
Dale Hoffman
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When I purchase a new drive I look for those designated "enterprise grade".
They're the ones with 5 year warranties.
On Jun 2, 2014, at 3:23 PM, Nestamicky <nestamicky@gmail.com> wrote:
> This is all very good discussion. Wonderful information here. Thanks a lot guys! Perhaps we could move it along more to the point of practical information, if folks could pitch in with specs to look for when buying modern hard drives. Most people simply go for size these days, but as Bruce and others have pointed, that could indeed be the curse. So, what tech specs must one keep in mind, folks?
>
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| Re: Hard Drives [message #254017 is a reply to message #254015] |
Mon, 02 June 2014 21:03 |
peterhaas
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> When I purchase a new drive I look for those designated "enterprise
> grade". They're the ones with 5 year warranties.
Used to be everything had a 5 year warranty.
Then the consumer/prosumer drives drives were reduced to 3 years.
Now the consumer/prosumer drives are reduced to 2 years.
The enterprise drives remain at 5 years, which is good.
Seagate has relegated Barracuda to consumer/prosumer and has introduced
new enterprise drives.
Seagate's 2.5" offerings (Momentus, for example) are still the best in my
book, which is somewhat strange as Seagate didn't come out with a 2.5"
offering until years after IBM (now Hitachi) and Toshiba, and, later, WD.
Historically, IBM's SCSI 2.5" drives (500 and 1000 megabyte capacity) were
originally intended for a UC-Berkeley-inspired RAID product, with the
drives physically mounted on a blade-type controller card.
Product never got off the ground, but IBM had already purchased Mylex
(remember them ?) which was supposed to design the cards, with IBM
supposed to make the packaging and firmware.
IBM had already confirmed the concept of commodity drives in a
"Count-Key-Data" array product, the 9345, using its own 5.25" SCSI drives,
and the 2.5" version was logically a "die shrink" concept applied to the
9345.
IBM is still largely "Count-Key-Data", a concept which never seems to die.
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| Re: Hard Drives [message #254033 is a reply to message #254017] |
Tue, 03 June 2014 00:14 |
Barney Guzzo
Messages: 7
Registered: October 2012
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I have a few Seagate 7200 3.5" ATA drives still running from 2001. They are 13 years old and have been transferred to different G4's but the drives are perfect. They all came with the 5 year warranty. Various Macbook and iBook drives I have had failures. So far my Macbook Pro late 2011 with a Toshiba drive seems to be very good. So what to look for in a drive these days? There does not seem to be any concrete data on what to buy for extended reliability. SSD seems to be more reliable but prices are still a little high. Samsung and Intel lead with the lowest failure rates of SSD's. HDD Brands have been sold or merged with other companies. Search around and you will get a hundred views on reliability and many ideas on warranty issues. Seems like all you can really do is make good backup's and even replace your backup drives every so often.
On Jun 2, 2014, at 9:03 PM, peterhaas@cruzio.com wrote:
>
>> When I purchase a new drive I look for those designated "enterprise
>> grade". They're the ones with 5 year warranties.
>
> Used to be everything had a 5 year warranty.
>
> Then the consumer/prosumer drives drives were reduced to 3 years.
>
> Now the consumer/prosumer drives are reduced to 2 years.
>
> The enterprise drives remain at 5 years, which is good.
>
> Seagate has relegated Barracuda to consumer/prosumer and has introduced
> new enterprise drives.
>
> Seagate's 2.5" offerings (Momentus, for example) are still the best in my
> book, which is somewhat strange as Seagate didn't come out with a 2.5"
> offering until years after IBM (now Hitachi) and Toshiba, and, later, WD.
>
> Historically, IBM's SCSI 2.5" drives (500 and 1000 megabyte capacity) were
> originally intended for a UC-Berkeley-inspired RAID product, with the
> drives physically mounted on a blade-type controller card.
>
> Product never got off the ground, but IBM had already purchased Mylex
> (remember them ?) which was supposed to design the cards, with IBM
> supposed to make the packaging and firmware.
>
> IBM had already confirmed the concept of commodity drives in a
> "Count-Key-Data" array product, the 9345, using its own 5.25" SCSI drives,
> and the 2.5" version was logically a "die shrink" concept applied to the
> 9345.
>
> IBM is still largely "Count-Key-Data", a concept which never seems to die.
>
>
>
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| Re: Hard Drives [message #254034 is a reply to message #254015] |
Tue, 03 June 2014 00:40 |
Listmister
Messages: 2
Registered: June 2014
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Junior Member |
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On Jun 2, 2014, at 8:11 PM, Dale Hoffman <dhoff@margnat.com> wrote:
> When I purchase a new drive I look for those designated "enterprise grade".
> They're the ones with 5 year warranties.
>
> On Jun 2, 2014, at 3:23 PM, Nestamicky <nestamicky@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> This is all very good discussion. Wonderful information here. Thanks a lot guys! Perhaps we could move it along more to the point of practical information, if folks could pitch in with specs to look for when buying modern hard drives. Most people simply go for size these days, but as Bruce and others have pointed, that could indeed be the curse. So, what tech specs must one keep in mind, folks?
>>
>
>
> --
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| Re: Hard Drives [message #254058 is a reply to message #253976] |
Tue, 03 June 2014 10:32 |
Nesta Nesta
Messages: 11
Registered: March 2013
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On 14-06-02 1:53 PM, Bruce Johnson wrote:
> Sadly, for the majority of the models under discussion here the answer is 'See if you can find a 7200 rpm drive'. These systems are cursed with obsolete technology.
>
> IDE-based SSD's are tiny and hugely expensive, 7200 RPM drives are getting scarce, particularly for laptops, but even in 3.5" models.
>
> You can put good, fast SSD's in a G5 tower, and for a boot volume this probably make sense, since you can keep the older, slower drives for data.
Does this mean that I can put one of those in a Pismo?
>
> Making sure you have a good, current backup is probably the very best strategy; this makes it much less of an issue when a drive dies.
Until there's a crash, most people, including myself don't take this
very seriously. If I knew what better, in fact, I will stop this e-mail
right here and go back up things that I know if an HD crash, I myself,
just might crash. Strong statement and said like that may make me start
on that this weekend and keep at it.
>
> But basically, the best possible speed-up strategy for a G3-G5 system is to move to an Intel Mac :-/
Bruce, I know this is a poke at me, because I'm the dinosaurs in this
group. So, moving into the new age: I'm accepting offers for a very
cheap intel machine; laptop or mac mini.
>
> There you have a host of solutions: for instance a modern Mini with an SSD is like a different critter than the stock ones with their dog-slow 5400 RPM HDD's. Boot times go to seconds, from minutes, and Disk IO can finally keep up with the CPU and network IO, especially if they're on a gigabit network.
>
> Also these drives are vastly cheaper:
> < http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=20-721-108&a mp;nm_mc=EMC-GD051914&cm_mmc=EMC-GD051914-_-index-_-Item -_-20-721-108> These were on sale for $104 a couple weeks ago. (get on their email list you can sometimes score awesome deals).
You know, I used to be on their mailing list, I guess I did not pay much
attention to their mail, by clicking on their links, and so they bumped
me off. I will try and get back on.
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| Re: Hard Drives [message #254059 is a reply to message #254033] |
Tue, 03 June 2014 10:57 |
Nesta Nesta
Messages: 11
Registered: March 2013
Karma: 0
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Junior Member |
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On 14-06-02 10:14 PM, Baldassare Guzzo wrote:
> Seems like all you can really do is make good backup's and even
> replace your backup drives every so often.
This reminds me of a post I made in a Linux forum a few years back. I
asked why Ubuntu continue to release newer version of their linux, when
in release, after release, after release SAMBA remains unsolved. I
pointed out that each release will produce a version of SAMBA that is
far from intuitive and that sharing is now an essential, just like a web
browser, on any computer today. The mods simply deleted the post. It was
too true to reckon with.
What does that have to do with reliable HDs? Essentially the same: the
size keeps growing, the speed the same, and the cost, depending whom
you're speaking with, dropping. But here we see that as those progress
continue, the drives are becoming less reliable. And to make matters
worse, the manufacturers, knowing the load of crap they're selling
nowadays, have reduced, as Peter pointed out, systematically, the number
of years they will stand behind their own load of crap. But who would
want to stand behind a box load of crap for longer than they legally should?
So, why can't the manufacturers, as I urged the folks at ubuntu to do;
stop, fix basic fundamental problems and then ask for the money they
belief that has cost them? I predict, pretty soon, we will see an
increase, as was the case way back when, the growth of the niche
industry with guys in white coats standing in prestine environments,
they call labs, asking you to send your HDs in, and for a cool $2,000,
will try and recover your details...but no real promises. And I know
some may say the process will fix itself...that there will be a tonne of
bad higher capacity HDs before we see more reliable drives. I won't hold
my breadth. Much like sugar, see "Fed Up," our appetite for more HD size
is insatiable and like the food industry, the manufacturers know this. I
still remember when a 20GB will cost you a fortune. Now folks won't even
take them for free. I giggled when my neighbour, a fan for chasing the
highway of techonoly, complained bitterly about how he can't find an ATA
drive for "resonable" price. I gave him a 60GB for free.
Anyway, I'm not condemning your statement, just commenting on the very
obvious. There has to be an alternative than the waste and distress
we're telling ourselves is the solution to this racket. Why for example,
do manufacturers still offer five years warranty on so-called enterprise
HDs, and a year or two for "prosumers" as Peter tells us?
Yes, I'm upset...there you have it!
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| Re: Hard Drives [message #254060 is a reply to message #253976] |
Tue, 03 June 2014 10:57 |
Jeff Walther
Messages: 134
Registered: August 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Monday, June 2, 2014 2:53:18 PM UTC-5, joh...@pharmacy.arizona.edu wrote:
>
>
> On Jun 2, 2014, at 12:23 PM, Nestamicky <nesta...@gmail.com <javascript:>>
> wrote:
>
>> Most people simply go for size these days, but as Bruce and others have
> pointed, that could indeed be the curse. So, what tech specs must one keep
> in mind, folks?
>
> Sadly, for the majority of the models under discussion here the answer is
> ‘See if you can find a 7200 rpm drive’. These systems are cursed with
> obsolete technology.
>
> IDE-based SSD’s are tiny and hugely expensive, 7200 RPM drives are getting
> scarce, particularly for laptops, but even in 3.5” models.
>
> Adapter based solutions are very affordable and the way to go these days.
The simplest is to just get an IDE to SATA converter. They're cheap and
reliable and I have not read any complaints about performance. If one
wants to go directly to an SSD, something like this can be useful:
< eshop.sintech.cn/mini-pcie-msata-ssd-to-44pin-ide-adapter-as -25ide-hdd-p-626.html >
Sintech Electronics PA6008B
However, you'd need a 40 pin desktop to 44 pin laptop (3.5" IDE to 2.5"
IDE) adapter as well.
I've seen the 240 GB MSATA SSDs almost as low as the 2.5" SATA SSD (~$105)
form factor.
For iPods and notebooks that use 1.8" ZIF/IDE hard drives, there's a ZIF
1.8" to MSATA SSD adapter.
However, if one needs to get from SCSI to SATA or IDE, the choices are not
good. The SCSI to PATA/SATA adapters jumped in price a few years ago from
~$30 to $150+.
Jeff Walther
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| Re: Hard Drives [message #254061 is a reply to message #254059] |
Tue, 03 June 2014 11:14 |
Bruce Johnson
Messages: 319
Registered: August 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Jun 3, 2014, at 7:57 AM, Nestamicky <nestamicky@gmail.com> wrote:
> Why for example, do manufacturers still offer five years warranty on so-called enterprise HDs, and a year or two for "prosumers" as Peter tells us?
Because they charge 2-4X for those drives. Remember the cardinal rule of engineering:
"Fast, Good, Cheap. Choose any two."
Also, the Ubuntu folks don't write or maintain Samba. The people to complain to would be Samba.org
You REALLY don't want companies to go off and write their own SMB stacks. We had the misfortune of buying a cheap SAN (Nexenta - based) just as Apple released 10.7 (with, yes, their completely re-written SMB stack. At least it adheres to standards, unlike Nexenta's rewritten version of Samba..to the point that for three months Macs were unable to connect to our servers if they were running 10.7. Even now, Macs cannot connect to this system via DFS.)
Thankfully we just replaced the old one with a new one (that cost a LOT more money...remember 'Good, Fast, Cheap') that actually works as expected.
And I have become vastly more aware and versed in Apple's AD command-line tools than I ever wanted to be...
--
Bruce Johnson
"Wherever you go, there you are." B. Banzai, PhD
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