Originally posted by: utzoo!decvax!ucbvax!sf-lovers
Posted: Fri Dec 10 11:25:12 1982
Received: Sat Dec 11 04:18:09 1982
>From SFL@SRI-CSL Fri Dec 10 11:10:18 1982
Reply-To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 9 Dec 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 101
Themes - time travel
Misc - pronouncing Leibowitz, beginning SF
Cons - Chicago convention
T.V. - favorite Star Trek episodes
Movies - SW/TESB/ROTJ's Other + Tolkien
Date: 8 December 1982 20:14-EST (Wednesday)
From: Paul Fuqua
Subject: Comments on Reality and Time Travel
Comments on two subjects, not on the combination.
Date: Sunday, 28 November 1982 15:35-PST
From: Jonathan Alan Solomon
To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-MC
Re: The Other [rebuttal]
The Force binds the universe together. Every physical
object, living or not, has a mapping into some universal
array. Ideas are merely conceptions of something not yet
explained in this universal array. If you decide that
the world is made up of Protons, Neutrons, and
Electrons, and there is no strong opposition
(counter-example) to that theory, then it holds. Every
mind in the universe begins to accept this theory as
fact. Once the theory is proven beyond reasonable doubt,
it becomes part of our interpretation of reality.
I know this passage appeared quite a while ago, but I only just
discovered Bboards and mailing lists.
Reality as only the perceptions of the observer is quite a popular
theme in writing of several genres, but only once have I seen a story
actually *built* on the theme. The story is "The New Reality," a
novella by Charles L. Harness, published in 1953 and reissued in
1969. The basic situation involves a future (1960s!) International
Censorship Board, charged with the task of preventing changes in the
current reality. The investigator A. Prentiss Rogers, under the
orders of E, is studying the activities of a Professor Luce. Luce, it
turns out, has developed a device with which he expects to reach the
base reality by destroying the present one, through forcing a single
photon to reflect off a prism set at *precisely* 45 degrees. The
photon will be unable to "decide," and slow down, blowing away the
present reality. There is a lot of information presented, in an
authentic-sounding manner, about past realities differing from the
present. For example, no people until the early Greeks noticed that
ships disappeared over the horizon, so the world was flat until then.
Or, the elements that Mendeleev predicted to fill the holes in the
periodic table did not exist until believed-in. The ending is
somewhat disappointing: the base reality is some sort of garden, the
A. in Prentiss's name stands for Adam, E is Eve, and Luce is a snake.
The reissue contains also "The Rose," a longer and, to me, more
interesting novel (Art vs Science), "The Chessplayers," about a
chess-playing rat named Zeno, and an introduction by (what, him
again?) Michael Moorcock.
The most logical time-travel story I read was a short-short whose
basic premise was that when one rides in a time machine (a la H G
Wells), it's not the machine that moves through time, but its
Date: 8 Dec 1982 1750-PST
From: Mike Leavitt
is how it is spelled on the book title I've got.
Date: 7 Dec 82 9:33:16-PST (Tue)
From: harpo!zeppo!whuxk!houxm!ihnp4!ihldt!tmh at Ucb-C70
Subject: re: pronouncing Leibowitz
Although I don't usually flame (and this ain't much of a flame anyway)
the reason given for the pronunciation of Leibowitz struck me as so
outlandish I felt I had to reply. For one thing Yiddish is Old German
and was the language the German Jews fleeing to the East took with
them in the Middle Ages/Reforemation. I also believe that Lieb is
pronounced Leeb in modern German as well (but not speaking German I am
not sure of this). I think English is the language causing confusion
not Yiddish or German. After all to quote G. B. Shaw you can justify
spelling the word fish as ghothi (or somenthing close to this) in
English. The only person qualified to answer the way the name of the
is pronounced is the author (vis a vis Byron's Don Juan (pronounced
Jou-an not Huan) just to get back at those snotty know-it-alls who
spoke Spainish and kept correcting him).
Date: 8 Dec 82 10:00:55-PST (Wed)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rocheste!heliotis at Ucb-C70
Subject: My origins into SF
This should also go to net.jokes! The first SF book I read as a kid
was "The Gilead Bomb". I stayed up late into the night to finish
it--it was the first time I had read an entire book in one shot. My
intellectual peak came a few years later when I read Asimov's
Foundation Trilogy (which is now a 'Quadragy'). Does everyone know
about the "YES" song about it? Things went downhill after I joined
the SF Book Club, and never sent in the little cards saying I did
*NOT* want the selection-of-the-month. My parents ended up with a
pile of bills, and I ended up with a shelf full of unread books.
By the way, I read "HARLIE" recently, on a recommendation. I thought
it had very few redeeming aspects. If anyone disagrees, I'd love to
hear some opinions.
Date: 8 Dec 82 11:01:49-PST (Wed)
From: npois!houxm!ihnp4!ihima!dhp at Ucb-C70
Subject: Chicago SF Convention
Announcing, a Science Fiction Convention:
WindyCon IX (a holiday relaxicon)
December 10-12 1982
$15 at the door
Guests of Honor: Location:
Frederik Pohl, Hyatt Lincolnwood
Jack Williamson 4500 West Touhy
Lincolnwood IL (312) 677-5400
WindyCon is normally a full-spectrum regional convention. However,
since Chicago (and more importantly Chicago convention fandom) have
just finished hosting the World Science Fiction Convention this year,
we decided to try to decompress by throwing a big weekend party.
Programming (sic) is minimal, no films, but oh, those all-night
An Art Show will allow artists to show off their best, and you can bid
on the pieces at the Saturday night auction. The Huckster Room
contains book and sf curiosity sellers, for your enlightenment and
By car: Take either the Tri-State Tollway (I-294) or the Edens
Expressway (I-94) to Touhy Avenue, and go east. The Hyatt Lincolnwood
is a large purple building on the north (left) side of the street,
about a mile east of the Edens.
By public transport: Take the Howard-Jackson Park/Englewood transit
line to Howard Street. From there take either the Route 290 or 291
NORTRAN bus (note - last bus leaves Howard Street at 10:30 p.m.) In
addition, the hotel is arranging a shuttle service to the Howard
Street Station (sorry, but I have no schedule on that. Call the hotel
Come and enjoy a relaxing weekend with us crazies!
Analysts International Corp .
at BTL (Indian Hill) IL
...!ihps3!ihima!dhp (312) 979-4416
Date: 6 Dec 82 12:13:51-PST (Mon)
From: decvax!utzoo!watmath!rtris at Ucb-C70
Subject: Best ST
Doesn't anybody out there like Amok Time? It's among my favourites.
Date: 8 Dec 1982 2240-EST
From: Mike First
Subject: City on the Edge of Forever
I agree with those who claimed that "City..." was the best ST episode.
The connection with Harlan Ellison is not quite what one would expect
from the title credits. A number of years ago, Tom Snyder (on his
now-defunct Tomorrow Show) had a segment on "Trekkies". He started
the segement out with DeForrest Kelley and Jimmy Doohan as guests, and
actually made them looke pretty stupid if I remember correctly (if you
ever have had the honor to hear them speak ot a convention, you won't
be very suprised). Well anyway, in the second half of the episode, he
had on Harlan Ellison, who proceeded to claim that ST was crap, that
Roddenberry totally altered his script (I believe he even tried to
have his name taken off the credits) and that Trekkies were total
fools! Given Ellison's personality (and egged on by Snyder) it was
not an shocking event. Needless to say, the sharp tongued Ellison did
take McCoy and Scotty by surprise and they were rather dumbfounded,
kind of mumbling afterward and looking ridiculous (Ellison made some
comment about how funny it was that these two actors continue to cater
to the Trekkies and that neither has done anything since). I wish I
had a VTR for this one! (also I would have loved to have seen the
original script-- I still think this "ruined-for-television" version
Date: 8 Dec 82 7:46:59-PST (Wed)
From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rocheste!FtG at Ucb-C70
Subject: SW/ESB Q&As
Last words (?) on Other/etc.-
It appears that the main reason that Leia is ignored/discounted as
being even a serious candidate for the Other is because she's a SHE
(gasp). SF has always been known to be the last refuge of MCPs, so
what can you expect?
Re: "Goodness" of exit of BF's ship.
Yes, it is tinged in positive/emotional colors and sound, and it
indeed is "in honor" of someone on that ship, but we already know
there is a good guy aboard. Think about-
(Stumped, here's a hint- his initials are H.S.)
Time to start a new discussion-
Question: Who's in charge here? The SW movies so far seem to be
extremely vague about the leadership of the rebels/Alliance. Why? Who
is in charge, where are they, what is their future role in a
post-empire government? Princess Leia appears to be the highest
ranking royalty, assuming the Alliance is organized along those lines.
Luke is said to be in charge of the rebel forces on Hoth though,
despite the fact he is merely "Commander" while there is Leia and a
general around. (Apparently even in the SW universe, no on ehas
figured out that separation of services is a bad idea, the empire also
suffers from the same problem.) If we knew who the true leaders of
the rebels are, we could figure out whjo comes out ahead in RotJ.
Date: 8 Dec 1982 0323-EST
From: Greg Skinner
Subject: SW <--> Tolkien
Actually, the Emperor <--> Morgoth, since Morgoth is at the
top of the list of enemies.
In addition, we don't know who the Emperor really *is* yet --
according to the SW book his former name was Senator Palpatine. This
leads me to believe that the Emperor is some "other" sort of character
who, like Vader, chose the dark side.
Date: 8 Dec 1982 02:36:50-EST
From: csin!alex at CCA-UNIX
Subject: No, there is another.
To me it is interesting that Vader told Luke to release his anger,
"Only your hatred (anger?) can destroy me." This is of course the
opposite of what Yoda and Obi-wan have said ("Mind what you have
learned -- save you it can"). When Luke started getting emotional was
when he started losing control of the Force -- here we see that the
Dark side is controlled by strong negative emotions, whereas the good
side is almost a Zen-like trance. Is it possible that Vader's
disclosure that he was Luke's father was what helped Luke in the end?
Recall that at that time Luke was beaten and injured, and hanging on
for his life at the end of the ... thing. Luke did not accept the
implication of Vader's disclosure, however, and looked down and
allowed himself to fall. The way it looked to me, he had regained
some calm and control when he did that.
Later on the Falcon, when Vader mind-speaks to him, his reaction is
not to Vader -- he hears Vader but does not respond, either negatively
or positively to Vader. Instead, he wonders why Ben didn't tell him.
Clearly he accepts the fact that Vader is his father at that point.
But he does not accept any implications of that fact.
NOW FOR A SPOILER.
At ChiCon, some of the information we gleaned from the LucasFilm
people (who, me? I was sitting in the fourth row....) indicated that
there will be only two planetfalls (Dagobah and Tatooine), and that no
new major characters were being introduced. Also, all loose ends will
be tied up. Some of this is inferred, some is from statements made by
the LucasFilm rep. (I can't remember if it was Gary Kurtz or someone
P.S. Would someone who was there please mail me? I want to check my
memory on something.
Date: Tue Dec 7 13:25:39 1982
Subject: The Other
Interesting suggestion that OB1, Darth, the Emperor and Boba Fett
might be clones of one another. I seem to recall that Darth was much
taller than OB1. Did OB1 then have a stunted childhood ? Just how
did all these clones get distributed around all over the place. What
kind of childhood did they have?
University of Waterloo
Date: 8 Dec 82 12:02:26-PST (Wed)
From: hplabs!hp-pcd!everett (Everett Kaser) at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: Stardates and ROTJ - (nf)
hp-pcd!everett Dec 8 08:37:00 1982
From: Everett Kaser
Revenge of the Jedai does *not* take place before Star Wars. It
follows directly after The Empire Strikes Back (both in the order it
was produced and in the chronological order of the story).
The Star Wars epic as it is supposed to be conceived of by George
Lucas is this: It consists of nine parts (movies) broken up into three
trilogies; Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back, and Revenge of the
Jedai are the middle three movies, or the second trilogy. The first
trilogy is suppose to be about the fall of the original republic, the
second about the fight of the republics remnant (the rebels) against
the empire, and the third about the rebirth of the republic (or
something along those lines; if I'm grossly wrong, I'm sure I'll hear
RotJ will tell the story of Han Solo recovering his mobility ('loosing
his cool', so to speak?), Luke facing off with Darth Vader, etc. etc.
Therefore, if Obi whatever is again corporeal, it's because he's
regained his physical being, not because the movie takes place
'before' Star Wars.
End of SF-LOVERS Digest