| WinVice High Density 1.6MB support? [message #142609] |
Wed, 28 June 2006 21:55  |
Jack Tseng
Messages: 84
Registered: November 2012
Karma: 0
|
Member |
|
|
I see the different drives on the list in WinVice. I am wondering if the two
drives, CMD FD 2000 and 4000 drive emulations are added in WinVice. If so,
WinVice uses a real floppy drive directly instead of using image file?
thanks!
Jack!
|
|
|
|
| Re: WinVice High Density 1.6MB support? [message #142610 is a reply to message #142609] |
Thu, 29 June 2006 02:51  |
Spiro Trikaliotis
Messages: 380
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Hello,
Jack Tseng <tseng4@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I see the different drives on the list in WinVice. I am wondering if
> the two drives, CMD FD 2000 and 4000 drive emulations are added in
> WinVice. If so, WinVice uses a real floppy drive directly instead of
> using image file?
Note that even the 1581 cannot use the disc directly at the moment,
although this would be possible with OmniFlop or similar tools.
But: Do you have any GOOD technical descriptions of these two, so that
one could estimate how much work it could be to add these two drives? I
hope they are very similar to a 1581, which might make this much easier.
Note: I did not say I will do it, only that I might have a look at it!
Regards,
Spiro.
--
Spiro R. Trikaliotis http://opencbm.sf.net/
http://www.trikaliotis.net/ http://www.viceteam.org/
|
|
|
|
| Re: WinVice High Density 1.6MB support? [message #142611 is a reply to message #142610] |
Fri, 30 June 2006 08:04 |
MagerValp
Messages: 847
Registered: April 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
>>>> > "ST" == Spiro Trikaliotis <news-200605@trikaliotis.net> writes:
ST> But: Do you have any GOOD technical descriptions of these two, so
ST> that one could estimate how much work it could be to add these two
ST> drives? I hope they are very similar to a 1581, which might make
ST> this much easier.
I've always assumed that they are more or less identical to the 1581 -
ram, rom, CIA, and WD177x-compatible controller. I'll see if I can dig
up a hires photo of the controller and a rom image (as long as Maurice
doesn't mind - you read this newsgroup don't you? :).
--
___ . . . . . + . . o
_|___|_ + . + . + . Per Olofsson, arkadspelare
o-o . . . o + MagerValp@cling.gu.se
- + + . http://www.cling.gu.se/~cl3polof/
|
|
|
|
| Re: WinVice High Density 1.6MB support? [message #142612 is a reply to message #142611] |
Fri, 30 June 2006 20:26 |
Excalibur
Messages: 86
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Member |
|
|
MagerValp wrote:
>>>> >> "ST" == Spiro Trikaliotis <news-200605@trikaliotis.net> writes:
>
> ST> But: Do you have any GOOD technical descriptions of these two, so
> ST> that one could estimate how much work it could be to add these two
> ST> drives? I hope they are very similar to a 1581, which might make
> ST> this much easier.
That would really be cool to have an FD-4000 emulated in WinVice.
Hopefully there'll be no objections.
Excalibur's Stone BBS
DMBBS HeadQuarters
bbs.excalibursstone.com 6400
Running DMBBS v5
|
|
|
|
| Re: WinVice High Density 1.6MB support? [message #142613 is a reply to message #142611] |
Sat, 01 July 2006 01:38 |
Wolfgang Moser
Messages: 632
Registered: July 2003
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Hello Per,
MagerValp schrieb:
>>>> >> "ST" == Spiro Trikaliotis <news-200605@trikaliotis.net> writes:
>
> ST> But: Do you have any GOOD technical descriptions of these two, so
> ST> that one could estimate how much work it could be to add these two
> ST> drives? I hope they are very similar to a 1581, which might make
> ST> this much easier.
>
> I've always assumed that they are more or less identical to the 1581 -
> ram, rom, CIA, and WD177x-compatible controller. I'll see if I can dig
> up a hires photo of the controller and a rom image (as long as Maurice
> doesn't mind - you read this newsgroup don't you? :).
if you see it that abstract, yes, there is not much
difference. In fact, the differences are bigger than
I myself always believed. Thanks to a nice guy, who
provided pics of his device some months ago (you
know who you are), we all can see the following:
http://d81.de/shared/cmdfd2000_bottom.JPG
http://d81.de/shared/cmdfd2000_top.JPG
* There is a typical IBM-PC oriented floppy disc
controller used on it, a µPD765 compatible one.
* 32K ROM I believe and 32K RAM, probably not all
pages used
* 6502 CPU, CMOS variant
* 6522, CMOS variant
(hopefully I don't get sued by Maurice? Please don't)
And the contributor especially explained to me,
that CMDs manual states that they worked around the
VIA shift register bug, so that this device in fact
is able to handle fast serial burst protocol with
that 6522. Maybe, because it is a _SC_ variant, or
because they used the FlipFlop fix against Phi2
for more see (section 5.1 on page 8):
http://www.6502.org/documents/datasheets/synertek/synertek_s y6522.pdf
or refer to comments from Garth Wilson (currently out of service):
http://www.6502.org/users/garth/projects.php?project=1&s chematic=11
http://www.6502.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=40&highlight=w d65c22s&sid=1b6df141e8909b4e07790e40fe9adf84
All in all, with some additional work, support for
the CMD series of devices should be doable in VICE.
Who _does_ that additional work? ;-)
Womo
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: WinVice High Density 1.6MB support? [message #142615 is a reply to message #142614] |
Sat, 01 July 2006 03:03 |
Wolfgang Moser
Messages: 632
Registered: July 2003
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Hello Groepaz,
Groepaz schrieb:
> Wolfgang Moser wrote:
>
>> (hopefully I don't get sued by Maurice? Please don't)
>
> why could anyone sue you for posting some pictures? *shrug*
hmmm, layout are considered as artwork in general and
therefore copyrightable creative work. It's similar to
make a plain copy of a page of a book and make it
publically available.... I can only hope that I have
got the implicite approval to show the FD2000 board ;-)
> unless the device is patented (which i doubt) you could even happily clone
> the whole thing, and noone could do anything about it. (ofcourse, you
> couldnt call it fd2000, that would be a trademark problem - maybe, if its
> even registered.)
Cloning is another story. As long as we don't need to
clone the ROM and as long as we don't clone the PCB
layout, we in fact could built a FD2000 compatible
device.
Maybe with the help of Mika's DCN-2692? Although this
would be very difficult to build a clone on top of
a 6502/6526/WD1772/'256/'010, a lot of routines would
have to be rewritten to compensate.
As always, the VHDL way seems to be more suitable and
may be an option, when __tested__ 65xx cores become
available with Peter's C-One implementation.
Womo
|
|
|
|
| Re: WinVice High Density 1.6MB support? [message #142616 is a reply to message #142613] |
Sat, 01 July 2006 06:36 |
MagerValp
Messages: 847
Registered: April 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
>>>> > "WM" == Wolfgang Moser <wnhp@d81.de.invalid> writes:
WM> * There is a typical IBM-PC oriented floppy disc
WM> controller used on it, a µPD765 compatible one.
The DP8473 datasheet can be found here:
http://www.ortodoxism.ro/datasheets/nationalsemiconductor/DS 009384.PDF
WM> * 32K ROM I believe and 32K RAM, probably not all
WM> pages used
WM> * 6502 CPU, CMOS variant
WM> * 6522, CMOS variant
WM> (hopefully I don't get sued by Maurice? Please don't)
I'm sure Maurice wouldn't mind seeing FD support in VICE. His
permission to include the FD ROM would be needed anyway - if he
doesn't want that, I'm sure he'll let us know.
WM> All in all, with some additional work, support for the CMD series
WM> of devices should be doable in VICE.
The FDC is only only "new" part - the rest is already in VICE.
WM> Who _does_ that additional work? ;-)
Does anyone know how much of the 8473/765 you would have to implement?
I only browsed through the datasheet quickly, but I'm guessing that
only a small subset needs to be emulated.
--
___ . . . . . + . . o
_|___|_ + . + . + . Per Olofsson, arkadspelare
o-o . . . o + MagerValp@cling.gu.se
- + + . http://www.cling.gu.se/~cl3polof/
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: WinVice High Density 1.6MB support? [message #142618 is a reply to message #142617] |
Tue, 04 July 2006 16:03 |
MagerValp
Messages: 847
Registered: April 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
>>>> > "ST" == Spiro Trikaliotis <news-200605@trikaliotis.net> writes:
ST> As others have stated, this is not the case.
Well, more or *less* identical ;) But yeah, a 765 compatible FDC seems
like the biggest hurdle.
ST> Note: From what I understand, the "official" VICE will not support
ST> other drives as long as their ROMs cannot be included in the VICE
ST> distribution.
That still works for me. I don't mind compiling from the sources
myself to get a version of VICE that I can use to test a debug drive
code for CMD drives.
ST> As Maurice had objections helping with a JiffyDOS problem before,
ST> I doubt he will allow including the FD ROMs into VICE.
Support for FD drives might be a little less sensitive than support
for 1541/71/81 JiffyDOS though...
--
___ . . . . . + . . o
_|___|_ + . + . + . Per Olofsson, arkadspelare
o-o . . . o + MagerValp@cling.gu.se
- + + . http://www.cling.gu.se/~cl3polof/
|
|
|
|
| Re: WinVice High Density 1.6MB support? [message #142619 is a reply to message #142618] |
Tue, 04 July 2006 16:47 |
Wolfgang Moser
Messages: 632
Registered: July 2003
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Hello Per,
MagerValp schrieb:
>>>> >> "ST" == Spiro Trikaliotis <news-200605@trikaliotis.net> writes:
>
> ST> Note: From what I understand, the "official" VICE will not support
> ST> other drives as long as their ROMs cannot be included in the VICE
> ST> distribution.
>
> That still works for me. I don't mind compiling from the sources
> myself to get a version of VICE that I can use to test a debug drive
> code for CMD drives.
Albeit, for a start, virtual drive *.d2m image based
support would be a bigger improvement to the current
VICE state than the improvement from that to FD2000
TDE, don't you think.
Which programs actually would _need_ true drive
emulation (TDE)? Doc Bacardi's Dreamload comes to my
mind, what else?
> ST> As Maurice had objections helping with a JiffyDOS problem before,
> ST> I doubt he will allow including the FD ROMs into VICE.
>
> Support for FD drives might be a little less sensitive than support
> for 1541/71/81 JiffyDOS though...
I doubt that, really... _If_ Maurice would allow to
distribute the FD2000 ROM image file, he would take
down the only barrier that some else prevents from
selling FD2000 clone drives.
I _would_ not see (not tested) any difficulties in
doing a clean clone of the hardware. "Clean" means
to do such a clone without copying the PCB layout.
If Maurice would not mind that someone else _could_
start producing cheap (?) FD2000 clones, he might
want to allow ROM redistribution.
Womo
|
|
|
|
| Re: WinVice High Density 1.6MB support? [message #142620 is a reply to message #142619] |
Wed, 05 July 2006 04:23 |
MagerValp
Messages: 847
Registered: April 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
>>>> > "WM" == Wolfgang Moser <wnhp@d81.de.invalid> writes:
WM> Albeit, for a start, virtual drive *.d2m image based support would
WM> be a bigger improvement to the current VICE state than the
WM> improvement from that to FD2000 TDE, don't you think.
I dunno, that would be an awful lot of work for a half-assed solution.
You would need to add support for d2m partitions and native
subdirectories, etc.
WM> Which programs actually would _need_ true drive emulation (TDE)?
WM> Doc Bacardi's Dreamload comes to my mind, what else?
My IRQ-loaders :)
WM> I doubt that, really... _If_ Maurice would allow to distribute the
WM> FD2000 ROM image file, he would take down the only barrier that
WM> some else prevents from selling FD2000 clone drives.
He wouldn't have to let the whole world redistribute it, just the VICE
team.
--
___ . . . . . + . . o
_|___|_ + . + . + . Per Olofsson, arkadspelare
o-o . . . o + MagerValp@cling.gu.se
- + + . http://www.cling.gu.se/~cl3polof/
|
|
|
|
| Re: WinVice High Density 1.6MB support? [message #142621 is a reply to message #142620] |
Wed, 05 July 2006 07:09 |
Wolfgang Moser
Messages: 632
Registered: July 2003
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
MagerValp schrieb:
>>>> >> "WM" == Wolfgang Moser <wnhp@d81.de.invalid> writes:
>
> WM> Which programs actually would _need_ true drive emulation (TDE)?
> WM> Doc Bacardi's Dreamload comes to my mind, what else?
>
> My IRQ-loaders :)
Ah yes, pretty the same? I did not know your ones.
> WM> I doubt that, really... _If_ Maurice would allow to distribute the
> WM> FD2000 ROM image file, he would take down the only barrier that
> WM> some else prevents from selling FD2000 clone drives.
>
> He wouldn't have to let the whole world redistribute it, just the VICE
> team.
If we assume that Maurice would allow the VICE
team to redistribute the FD2000 ROM under a
special (proprietary ?) license, I do see a
lot of licensing discussions pop up about if
such a license would be compatible to the GPL
of the rest of the source code of the whole
VICE project and so on... Maybe there is no
such conflict since the ROMs are loaded on
runtime and are user selectable by
configuration and further are definetly not
_linked_ into the binary, not statically nor
dynamically. But who knows, when all the
lawyers around here "pop up" telling us "nice
stories".
Womo
|
|
|
|
| Re: WinVice High Density 1.6MB support? [message #142622 is a reply to message #142621] |
Wed, 05 July 2006 09:28 |
MagerValp
Messages: 847
Registered: April 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
>>>> > "WM" == Wolfgang Moser <wnhp@d81.de.invalid> writes:
WM> Ah yes, pretty the same?
I started with the code in Lasse's rants, and worked from there.
WM> I did not know your ones.
Nothing's been released yet, it's all still in beta. Speaking of
which, I should bug my testers and see what, if anything, needs
fixing...
WM> If we assume that Maurice would allow the VICE team to
WM> redistribute the FD2000 ROM under a special (proprietary ?)
WM> license, I do see a lot of licensing discussions pop up about if
WM> such a license would be compatible to the GPL of the rest of the
WM> source code of the whole VICE project and so on...
But VICE already redistributes the C= roms, and they are not free.
Getting explicit permission from a known copyright holder would be an
improvement, if anything :)
--
___ . . . . . + . . o
_|___|_ + . + . + . Per Olofsson, arkadspelare
o-o . . . o + MagerValp@cling.gu.se
- + + . http://www.cling.gu.se/~cl3polof/
|
|
|
|
| Re: WinVice High Density 1.6MB support? [message #142624 is a reply to message #142622] |
Wed, 05 July 2006 12:04 |
Anders Carlsson
Messages: 776
Registered: July 2003
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
MagerValp <MagerValp@cling.gu.se> writes:
> WM> If we assume that Maurice would allow the VICE team to
> WM> redistribute the FD2000 ROM under a special (proprietary ?)
> WM> license, I do see a lot of licensing discussions pop up about if
> WM> such a license would be compatible to the GPL of the rest of the
> WM> source code of the whole VICE project and so on...
>
> But VICE already redistributes the C= roms, and they are not free.
Exactly what I was going to write. It is similar to how a few
software houses have granted certain sites (or host on their own)
download of their old titles, while it still would be illegal to
distribute them on other ftp sites or filesharing networks.
However many people unfortunately can not see the difference;
"if it is for free at one place, it must be for free everywhere". :(
Compare to when Cliff Lawson at Amstrad granted Speccy (and CPC)
emulators a license to include ROMs. After he left, Amstrad may
have changed their policy so newer emulators could not legally
include the same files older emulators do. Maybe it could be said
to be an unfair advantage for the established emulators (just like
if Maurice would grant inclusion of FD/JD/whatever ROMs with VICE,
but no other C64 emulators).
Besides, what is the commercial market for making 3.5" floppy drives
for 8-bit Commodores today? Those who have the skills and resources
probably would already have developed their own boards, ROMs and so
on. Even with the FD ROM available, it takes quite a bit of work to
manufacture cloned disk drives. There is a 1581 DIY substitute since
a few years, that someone could've expanded on and sell commercially.
--
Anders Carlsson
|
|
|
|
Members
Search
Help
Register
Login
Home
