Message-ID: <4049@decwrl.UUCP>
Date: Tue, 30-Oct-84 09:38:43 EST
Article-I.D.: decwrl.4049
Posted: Tue Oct 30 09:38:43 1984
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I disagree completely with proper!mikevp.  



Harlan Ellison writes about the human condition, which, as much
as some of us might like to believe, isn't a 100% warm, cuddly
and soft place.  If one can't feel sympathy and the pain behind
the characters in the "Paingod" collection, the frustration in
the "Gentleman Junkie..." collection, and the revenge, and 
hatred, and indifference in other stories of his, then I daresay
that you lack the glimmer of "humanness" that you claim to seek.

I'm told that in person, Mr. Ellison is not the most congenial
of people in the world.  So be it.  I judge a person by his
deeds and works, not by his social graces.

His stories are not often optomistic, but they are practically
guaranteed to make you *think*, and maybe reconsider part of the
world around you.  And maybe it just might help you share a 
lonely, depressed evening.

And maybe even survive one.

Writing Harlan Ellison of as "morbid" is doing him a great injustice.


tim lasko  {decvax, allegra, ihnp4, et. al.}!decvax!dec-rhea!dec-regina!lasko
DEC, Maynard, Mass.

Tue 30-Oct-1984 01:24 (Maynard Time)

Message-ID: <1808@sdcc6.UUCP>
Date: Thu, 1-Nov-84 11:46:16 EST
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Posted: Thu Nov  1 11:46:16 1984
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>from the terminal of Tim Lasko
> His stories are not often optomistic, but they are practically
> guaranteed to make you *think*, and maybe reconsider part of the
> world around you.  And maybe it just might help you share a 
> lonely, depressed evening.
> And maybe even survive one.
Ellison's stories are depressing.  They make you think.  They need to be
taken in small doses.  I would not 'share' such an evening with Ellison
unless I had something a bit more cheerful to relieve the depression he
added to it.  It is much more enlightening and fun to read his
commentary on just about anything.  His acerbic wit makes his prose on
any subject enjoyable to read even if it pisses you off.  It makes you
think as well. So I agree with Tim's last statement.
> 
> Writing Harlan Ellison of(f) as "morbid" is doing him a great injustice.


John Testa
UCSD Chemistry
sdcsvax!sdcc6!ix241         

Message-ID: <1609@proper.UUCP>
Date: Thu, 1-Nov-84 02:49:27 EST
Article-I.D.: proper.1609
Posted: Thu Nov  1 02:49:27 1984
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Reply-To: mikevp@proper.UUCP (mikevp)
Organization: Proper UNIX, San Leandro, CA
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In article <> lasko@regina.DEC writes:
>
>I disagree completely with proper!mikevp.  
>
>Harlan Ellison writes about the human condition, which, as much
>as some of us might like to believe, isn't a 100% warm, cuddly
>and soft place. ... 
>
>Writing Harlan Ellison of as "morbid" is doing him a great injustice.
>
Well, everyone to their own tastes.  I have read only two stories
by Ellison that I liked: "Repent, Harlequin...", and "Pennies off
a Dead Man's Eyes".  I thought "Pennies..." was outstanding.  Hoever, 
everything else I have read of his, is ugly, depressing, and, yes,
morbid.  "I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream" is fairly typical.

The human condition isn't a 100% evil, nasty, sadistic horror, either.

Message-ID: <984@druri.UUCP>
Date: Fri, 2-Nov-84 10:58:21 EST
Article-I.D.: druri.984
Posted: Fri Nov  2 10:58:21 1984
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Organization: AT&T Information Systems Laboratories, Denver
Lines: 35


Well, I for one agree with the previous. If I read one more Harlan-Ellison-
I'm-SO-depressed-and-nobody-likes-me-so-I'm-going-to-blow-up-the-whole-world
story, I'm going to be ill. The guy has *no* understanding of the word
"subtlety". His idea of compassion is maudlin sentimentality and shameless
pandering to the popular swings of fandom. And all this "Final Dangerous
Visions" crap - so he's got a writer's block, eh? On an *anthology*? Give
me a break! He's a hack, just like all the others, it's just that he's a
young hack who made it early enough so nobody wants to call him a hack,
and now all the sf types who try to hold up an example of science fiction's
literary legitimacy use *Harlan Ellison* as their shining example and give
everyone who reads serious novels a good laugh. What a joke - the guy's
been living in Hollywood too long, he finally believes all the nice things
everybody says about him because they wouldn't know great writing if it
came up and bit 'em.

But at least he's got company - John Varley, George R. Martin, Barry B.
Longyear, Anne McCaffrey (oh, those dragons are just *so* cute!). Mean-
while, mainstream fiction has Martin Cruz Smith, Mark Halprin, geez -
even Rosemary Rogers writes better than they do! Wake up! Neat ideas
and far-off worlds and fantastic expostions don't make up for bad
characterization, weak plots, and no character development, no matter
*how* many tribbles you strew around.

If it wasn't for Gene Wolfe and Orson Scott Card holding up a mirror to
the rest of their peers, the level would be even worse than it was in
the alleged "Golden Age". These two are all that stands between sf
and mediocre garbage, though you might include the new-improved Robert
Silverberg if you were being charitable.

Davis Tucker
AT&T Information Systems
Denver, CO

P.S. - Stephen R. Donaldson is a hack, too.

Message-ID: <4106@decwrl.UUCP>
Date: Sat, 3-Nov-84 02:08:38 EST
Article-I.D.: decwrl.4106
Posted: Sat Nov  3 02:08:38 1984
Date-Received: Sat, 3-Nov-84 22:26:21 EST
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"nasty, evil, sadistic horror?"

Nonsense.  Ellison's stories admittedly deal with the darker effects of our
actions ("Croatoan"), our inner demons ("In Fear of K"), our inner apathies
and fears ("The Whimper of Whipped Dogs", but he also talks about
how we have brought things upon ourselves ("Repent Harlequin..." and "I Have
No Mouth..." are cautionary tales).  But he can also speak of triumph
("Wanted in Surgery", "Life Hutch"), and sometimes he can even be funny.

But since even Yahweh would have spared Sodom and Gomorrah, had Lot been
able to find one worthy person, even Ellison should not be consigned to
morbidity and sadism.  Here are five of his stories that I guarantee
not to be depressing:

    "Mom" - Strange Wine  
    "From A to Z, In the Chocolate Alphabet"  -  Strange Wine
    "How's the Night Life on Cassida?"  -  Shatterday
    "Working With the Little People"  -  Strange Wine
    "Deeper than the Darkness"  -  Paingod and other Delusions

I also highly recommend The Glass Teat/The Other Glass Teat for biting,
hilarious, and thought-provoking commentary about 1968 through 1971.  And,
if you can't take full doses of Ellison, try his Partners in Wonder
collection of collaborations.

tim lasko {decvax,ihnp4,allegra,et.al.}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-regina!lasko

Message-ID: <1449@hcrvax.UUCP>
Date: Sat, 3-Nov-84 14:59:10 EST
Article-I.D.: hcrvax.1449
Posted: Sat Nov  3 14:59:10 1984
Date-Received: Sun, 4-Nov-84 06:14:41 EST
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Organization: Human Computing Resources, Toronto
Lines: 6

[Out vile jelly!]

Amen!  (as i stare into my glass teat!)
-- 
I'm a man!  I'm not a horse!		Paul Bonneau
					{decvax|utzoo|watmath}!hcr!hcrvax

Message-ID: <3062@mit-eddie.UUCP>
Date: Sun, 4-Nov-84 22:22:41 EST
Article-I.D.: mit-eddi.3062
Posted: Sun Nov  4 22:22:41 1984
Date-Received: Tue, 6-Nov-84 04:59:17 EST
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Organization: MIT, Cambridge, MA
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I've seen him speak twice in the last few years, and he is an 
incredibly dynamic speaker.  I also had the rare 'treat' of eating
dinner with him the last time he was here.  Well, let's just say
this: having met him in person and spent time in a social situation,
I'd be more content to continue reading his stuff than I would to
be counted among his close personal friends.  Oh, well.  I was a bit
disappointed, but that's life.  I still find his writing to be the
stuff that has what it takes.

From the article...
>I also highly recommend The Glass Teat/The Other Glass Teat for biting,
Sorry, but the fact that this line ended at the point it did really got
to me....
-- 
Randwulf  (Randy Haskins);  Path= genrad!mit-eddie!rh

Message-ID: <1612@proper.UUCP>
Date: Sat, 3-Nov-84 14:54:40 EST
Article-I.D.: proper.1612
Posted: Sat Nov  3 14:54:40 1984
Date-Received: Tue, 6-Nov-84 07:37:13 EST
References: <4049@decwrl.UUCP> <>
Reply-To: mikevp@proper.UUCP (mikevp)
Organization: Proper UNIX, San Leandro, CA
Lines: 13

In article <> ix241@sdcc6.UUCP (ix241) writes:
>It is much more enlightening and fun to read his (Ellison's)
>commentary on just about anything.  His acerbic wit makes his prose on
>any subject enjoyable to read even if it pisses you off.  It makes you
>think as well. 

I certainly agree with that.  My comments were strictly aimed at Ellison's
fiction.  A friend gave me a copy of a book of his short stories, saying
"Here's his least depressing stuff" (She really liked Ellison), and they
were as morbid as the rest of his stuff that I dislike.  However, I did
enjoy his introductions to the stories, and I have liked his nonfiction,
such as his articles about his misadventures in TV land.

Message-ID: <4144@decwrl.UUCP>
Date: Tue, 6-Nov-84 15:43:46 EST
Article-I.D.: decwrl.4144
Posted: Tue Nov  6 15:43:46 1984
Date-Received: Thu, 8-Nov-84 04:06:39 EST
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Lines: 52

Davis Tucker  ==  >
> He's a hack, just like all the others, it's just that he's a
> young hack who made it early enough so nobody wants to call him a hack, ...

"Young"?  Well, maybe "young at heart"? 

> What a joke - the guy's been living in Hollywood too long, ...

"Hollywood"?  Actually, it's Sherman Oaks.

> But at least he's got company - John Varley, George R. Martin, Barry B.
> Longyear, Anne McCaffrey ... 
> Neat ideas and far-off worlds and fantastic expostions don't make up for bad
> characterization, weak plots, and no character development, no matter *how*
> many tribbles you strew around. 

"Tribbles"?  As far as I know, David Gerrold is the only one who's written
about tribbles, and his name's not in that list up there.  Perhaps you have the
wrong Star Trek episode in mind.

> If I read one more Harlan-Ellison-I'm-SO-depressed-and-nobody-likes-me-so-
> I'm-going-to-blow-up-the-whole-world story, I'm going to be ill. 

Gee, I've read all the Harlan Ellison books I could lay my eyes on, and I've
never come across one of these stories.  Anybody have any references?

> And all this "Final Dangerous Visions" crap - so he's got a writer's block,
> eh? On an *anthology*? Give me a break! 

Whatever the reasons for the delay are, are we to assume that you, David, have
experience in producing anthologies?  Or have you at least seen anthologies
such as DV and ADV which do involve an amount of writing on the part of the
editor?

> ...he finally believes all the nice things everybody says about him ... 

> The guy has *no* understanding of the word "subtlety". His idea of compassion
> is maudlin sentimentality and shameless pandering to the popular swings of
> fandom. 

Weird.  The usual line is that people say nasty things about Harlan Ellison
(usually in fun, though).  But of all the nasty things I've heard "maudlin
sentimentality" and "pandering" were never among them.

+     +     +     ++     +     +     ++     +     +     ++     +     +     +
Did I miss something?  Was that letter supposed to be a joke, or what?

L S Chabot
UUCP:	...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot
ARPA:	...chabot%amber.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
USFail:    DEC, MR03-1/K20, 2 Iron Way, Marlborough, MA  01752
shadow:	[ISSN 0018-9162 v17 #10 p7, bottom vt100, col3, next to next to last]

Message-ID: <1142@orca.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 7-Nov-84 13:04:24 EST
Article-I.D.: orca.1142
Posted: Wed Nov  7 13:04:24 1984
Date-Received: Thu, 8-Nov-84 08:25:58 EST
References: <4106@decwrl.UUCP>
Organization: Tektronix, Wilsonville OR
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Re: Harlan Ellison stories guaranteed not to depress you.

Don't forget "I'm Looking For Kadak," to be found in Jack Dann's
"Wandering Stars" collection. Kadak has to be the funniest Jewish
extraterrestrial ever conceived.

Ariel (So why am I talking to a butterfly?) Shattan
..!tektronix!orca!ariels

Message-ID: <1840@nsc.UUCP>
Date: Thu, 8-Nov-84 02:14:27 EST
Article-I.D.: nsc.1840
Posted: Thu Nov  8 02:14:27 1984
Date-Received: Fri, 9-Nov-84 08:31:00 EST
References: <4049@decwrl.UUCP> <>
Reply-To: chuqui@nsc.UUCP (Zonker T. Chuqui)
Organization: The Warlocks Cave, Western Annex
Lines: 57
Keywords: potshots
Summary: 

In article <984@druri.UUCP> isiw@druri.UUCP writes:
>If I read one more Harlan-Ellison-
>I'm-SO-depressed-and-nobody-likes-me-so-I'm-going-to-blow-up-the-whole-world
>story, I'm going to be ill. The guy has *no* understanding of the word
>"subtlety". His idea of compassion is maudlin sentimentality and shameless
>pandering to the popular swings of fandom. 
Hmm... I've never seen anyone accuse Harlan of being subtle. He isn't, and
doesn't want to be. Maudlin sentimentality? shameless pandering? Are you
sure you don't have one of those wonderfully high quality Star Trek novels
in your hand? Harlan has been notoriously uneven for years-- at his worst
he comes across as self-indulgent and immature but at his best he is one of
the best writers in America. Period. His is not an easy form of literature
to read because it makes you think and it forces you to consider the
unpleasant aspects of life. He isn't a light read, but then neither are
writers such as Kafka, Dante, Cervantes and most of the other classic
writers. Of all of the SF that I feel will survive the test of time,
harlan's stuff is a good contender, along with Gene Wolfe's New Sun stuff
and Bradbury. These authors will be around long after the Clarkes and
Asimovs of the world are out of print because they aren't just good SF,
they are good works of literature. That doesn't make them easy things to
read, or enjoyable, but they are compelling and technically excellant. 

>And all this "Final Dangerous
>Visions" crap - so he's got a writer's block, eh? On an *anthology*? Give
>me a break! He's a hack, just like all the others, it's just that he's a
You obviously have never seriously tried to write. I could make a snide
comment about the chances of your success by the quality of your posting,
but I'll be nice and refrain. Anthologies are a LOT of work. Harlan's
writers block also had a physiological base (there was an article in Locus
a few issues back on this-- I can detail it if neccessary) that made it
impossible for him to work at all. One thing Harlan has NEVER been is a
hack. Just ask all of those castrated editors who tried to modify his work
when he didn't agree with their changes. Hacks care about money, harlan
cares about words...

>But at least he's got company - John Varley, George R. Martin, Barry B.
>Longyear, Anne McCaffrey (oh, those dragons are just *so* cute!).
Oooh, lets just take a potshot at ALL of SF while we're at it. Jump on
Issac, jump on Arthur, you forgot Terry Carr and R. A. MacAvoy, too.

>Mean-
>while, mainstream fiction has Martin Cruz Smith, Mark Halprin, geez -
>even Rosemary Rogers writes better than they do! Wake up! Neat ideas
>and far-off worlds and fantastic expostions don't make up for bad
>characterization, weak plots, and no character development, no matter
>*how* many tribbles you strew around.
There are at least as many BAD authors in 'mainstream' as there are in any
genre. Perhaps more. You can put the best SF authors and worst mainstream
people together and get just as biased a discussion in the other direction.
It sounds to my like you simply have a bias against SF.

chuq
-- 
From the Department of Bistromatics:                   Chuq Von Rospach
{cbosgd,decwrl,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui  nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA

  I'd know those eyes from a million years away....

Message-ID: <989@druri.UUCP>
Date: Thu, 8-Nov-84 11:48:52 EST
Article-I.D.: druri.989
Posted: Thu Nov  8 11:48:52 1984
Date-Received: Sat, 10-Nov-84 07:10:03 EST
References: <4049@decwrl.UUCP> <>, <1840@nsc.UUCP>
Organization: AT&T Information Systems Laboratories, Denver
Lines: 37
Keywords: potshots


 Well, well, well, chuq... 

You should have your reader's license suspended for reading while indoctrinated
if you can even utter Ellison's name in the same *day* as Kafka, Dante, and
Cervantes! Just because he's written some good stuff (I do agree with you
there - he's come through a few times, but...) does not qualify him as an
artist, nor does it qualify his work as literature. Ask any English teacher.

BTW, even hacks don't like their work changed (just like hackers don't like
their code changed...) - even Alan Dean Foster barks a few times, I would
think. But just because Ellison has garnered a rep as being *the* enfant
terrible of the genre is no reason to assume that the words he defends are
any good. "The squeaky wheel gets the grease" - that's all it means.

Anthologies I have had experience with, as well as working on a large 
newspaper. Ellison has no excuse for 10 years of "writer's block" on
what could be at most 40 pages which don't require much creativity, just
background information and a little fanfare by way of introduction (i'm
not going to mention his penchant for self-indulgent forewords in the
previous DV-ADV... let's just say those forewords are so odious they
could gag a maggot on a meat wagon).

You're probably right about mainstream fiction and *its* hacks. I bow
to that one - mainly, I read magazines like "Easyrider", "Hustler",
"Gung-Ho!", "Reader's Digest", "Ebony", "Tiger Beat", "Mad", "Parade",
"People", "Us", and "National Enquirer". So I'm not so up-to-snuff.

And as far as Gene Wolfe goes, I agree with you double on that one.
He's so far above the rest of his peers... I just hope the quality
of his literature inspires others in the genre to get out of their
ruts and try to rise above their sometimes painfully obvious levels
of incompetence. It's about time.

Davis Tucker
AT&T Information Systems
Denver, CO

Message-ID: <457@uwmacc.UUCP>
Date: Tue, 13-Nov-84 14:03:50 EST
Article-I.D.: uwmacc.457
Posted: Tue Nov 13 14:03:50 1984
Date-Received: Thu, 15-Nov-84 01:32:35 EST
References: <4049@decwrl.UUCP>
Organization: UWisconsin-Madison Academic Comp Center
Lines: 63

> 
> Harlan Ellison writes about the human condition, which, as much
> as some of us might like to believe, isn't a 100% warm, cuddly
> and soft place.  If one can't feel sympathy and the pain behind
> the characters in the "Paingod" collection, the frustration in
> the "Gentleman Junkie..." collection, and the revenge, and 
> hatred, and indifference in other stories of his, then I daresay
> that you lack the glimmer of "humanness" that you claim to seek.
> 
> 
> Writing Harlan Ellison of as "morbid" is doing him a great injustice.
> 
> 
> tim lasko  {decvax, allegra, ihnp4, et. al.}!decvax!dec-rhea!dec-regina!lasko
> DEC, Maynard, Mass.
>

I used to swallow up material from Ellison as fast as he could 
produce it. (Well, OK, slight exageration there...at any rate, I
read him a lot.) I used to like him quite a bit, and I still
agree with his viewpoints to some extent. Also, his socio/political
(non-fiction) writings, as in "The Glass Teat", are wonderful. He
is about as close to being Hunter Thompson as one can be
without being Hunter Thompson...

...(yup, here it comes)...HOWEVER....

   I have come to the conclusion that the man writes himself into
a trap. In his strive for "telling it like it is," he's forgotten
almost entirely about the other side of humanity...the side of
us that hopes, dreams and strives (whether we fail or not, some of
us DO strive).. he's become obsessed with sitting and brooding about
how rotten we all are. In all things, especially writing, we should
try and keep and open mind.

Tim Lasko also wrote that he does not base his opinion of people
on their "social graces." (Forgive me, Tim, if I am misquoting you...
and corrct me if I am taking you out of context.)
That, however, is a large window into someone's personality, and what
is writing if not a reflection of the person doing the writing?
Don't get me wrong, Ellison is a very elloquent, brilliant writer...
he is also, unfortunately, vearing toward manic depression about
humanity...
   ...ah, I can hear him calling me a "pinko, twit bastard" right
now...so be it...

   One final word about Ellison that has bothered me for a 
long time...he seems to be quite a poor sport. I have a 
copy of a letter from him when StarTrek was about to be taken
off the air...saying that StarTrek is the best thing since slice
bread....after some disagreements with Roddenberry over his
"City On the Edge of Forever" script, and, more recently, in the
refusal in accepting his script for the ST movies, Ellison suddenly
began attaching labels on StarTrek like "pablum for the mind."

StarTrek is only one example of many from his past track record...
...just something to think about when you evaluate the man...

                     --- Rob DeMillo
                         MACC
                         ...seismo!uwvax!demillo@uwmacc