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turbo-digest digest, Volume 08, Issue 330 [message #4509] Fri, 27 July 2012 01:15
Anonymous
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Originally posted by:
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In this issue:
	Re: The ultimate game request of the homebrewers
	Re: the ultimate game request of the homebrewers
	Re: the ultimate game request of the homebrewers
	Implode et all
	Re: The ultimate game request of the homebrewers
	Re: The ultimate request of the homebrewers
	Re: The ultimate request of the homebrewers
	Re: The ultimate request of international copyright laws.

=======================================================================
From: zeograd@zeograd.com
Date: Thu Nov 28 02:23:28 EST 2002
Subject: Re: The ultimate game request of the homebrewers


Hi all

duo16@mindspring.com wrote:
 >  I hope I don't get the axe for this but the resources of this List are really
 >  missing out on making something we all want.  Dave Shadoff and others have
 >  been translating Turbo games and Mindrec has what I consider a label and some
 >  (perhaps limited) means of getting a game made.  I think it's time to combine
 >  the two and start releasing english versions  of PC Engine games.  I 
mean what > is everyone afraid of?  TTI is long gone and if you call Hudson in Seattle or
 >  NEC and mention the Turbo Grafx 16 they'll just say "what's that?".

This is tempting but the matter is that when money will be involved, Nec 
and Hudson are very likely to recover their memories. Maybe not for the 
amount of money they could grab from there, but for the principle. I 
don't think they'd like to create a precedent of the like : "Anyone can 
make money using very old, but still copyrighted materials"

 >   There's
 >  no reason at all to fear any copyright lawsuit from Japan.  In all realism
 >  here, this is what we want the most.  Who in the Turbo world doesn't want to
 >  play ManjiMaru, Dead of the Brain, Legend of Xanadu, Kabukiden, Emerald
 >  Dragon, and Xak in English? Implode quality packaging would be nice too.  If
 >  anyone doubts that these would make money, think again...How many of us have
 >  spent craploads of money for RPGs which we can barely read (if at all)?   I
 >  just recently spent $80 for Record of Lodoss War I & II.  

We have to notice that those which are keeping japanese games for future 
reselling will be really bothered if amateurs can bring english versions 
at lower prices (excepted if developpers have to pay for licences or such)

 >      This List has Japanese speakers/ readers, programmers, and so on. 
 >  Copyrights be damned.  Start with easy roms and make some fairly easy money. 
 >  THEN get into more complex titles and even original titles.  If Mindrec went
 >  through with this and did a Hudson game and say some jerk wanted to report it
 >  to Hudson/ Konami of Japan.  Do you really think they'd listen?  
Hell, Working > Designs got away with reprinting titles long after their license expired.  

hmm, maybe real fans got a morale. That's why they don't start anything 
without being sure it's totally lelgal.

 >       Just think about it, please?  Imagine Land of Y's, Cosmic Fantasy IV
 >  (oooohhhhh double disc set), Macross SLG, Gulliver Boy and others on 
CDs (even > with hucard sound, so what) playing on your US TG-16 in English!  THIS is the
 >  untapped side of the US Duo and the way for Mindrec and others to get the
 >  funds together for bigger original projects.  Will anyone second this?

Seeing the result of Implode front to the expectations, it is legitim to 
wonder how much of such a game could be sold, and to which price. Even 
if it would certainly be at a lower price than the original one (since 
it's easier to find) there would be a large amount of work for all guys 
behind it. If 200 are sold, and 8 people were working on it and the 
marging is $16 per cd, and the costs are maybe 20$ - 25$ for a clean cd 
and such. It would be $400 per person for months of work and up to 
45$-50$ per cd shipped. Does it sound reasonable ?

Zeograd



-----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: duo16@mindspring.com
Date: Thu Nov 28 03:01:01 EST 2002
Subject: Re: the ultimate game request of the homebrewers


Zeograd wrote:
 
 > This is tempting but the matter is that when >money will be involved, Nec 
 > and Hudson are very likely to recover their >memories. Maybe not for the 
 > amount of money they could grab from there, but >for the principle. I 
 > don't think they'd like to create a precedent of >the like : "Anyone can 
 > make money using very old, but still copyrighted >materials"

     If we were in Japan, this might MIGHT be a remote consideration.  But
Hudson is a shadow of what it once was and the NEC that brought out the TG16
is a different company.  You can see it on ROM sites for example.  While
Nintendo, Sony, and others actively pursue clearing out ROM sites, the Turbo
ROMS are generally untouched.  No one is trying to take them down.
 

 > We have to notice that those which are keeping >japanese games for future 
 > reselling will be really bothered if amateurs >can bring english versions 
 > at lower prices (excepted if developpers have to >pay for licences or such)
 
     Again, highly unlikely.  If Japanese developers have proven anything,
it's a tremendous lack of interest in the US market (unless they are about to
launch a game).  I highly doubt that TelNet, Red, Rivelhill and other PCE
developers have hawks who scour the net looking for what I am proposing.  They
were never in touch with this market to begin with.  You may as well try to
resell colecovision games (you might get more of a response).  Man, you make
it sound as though I'm proposing a huge corporate manuever or something. 
There is nothing bigtime about any of this.   

 
 > hmm, maybe real fans got a morale. That's why >they don't start anything 
 > without being sure it's totally lelgal.

   look, i'm not some pirate or anything.  i am as die hard a fan as anyone
here but i'm not going to balk at doing something really cool either.  don't
give me your righteous arguments on legality.  some might say that charging
$15 (or whatever it is) for the Magic Engine Emulator may not be legal. 
Others may say that manufacturing and selling and buying Kisdos and other
converters isn't exactly legal but I don't remember too much whining over
that- and kisdos wound up going (from TZD) from $35 to $65+.  These weren't
legit in the least but they were great projects by fans and for fans and
NEC/HUDSON didn't do a single thing about it either because they didn't know
or they didn't care.   need i remind you that the closest surviving relatives
of TTI wound up being TZD.  they're as official as it got over the last ten
years (thank GOD for them too) and they are now planning on bringing in new
converters from australia.
 

 
 > Seeing the result of Implode front to the >expectations, it is legitim to 
 > wonder how much of such a game could be sold, >and to which price. Even 
 > if it would certainly be at a lower price than >the original one (since 
 > it's easier to find) there would be a large >amount of work for all guys 
 > behind it. If 200 are sold, and 8 people were >working on it and the 
 > marging is $16 per cd, and the costs are maybe >20 $ - 25$ for a clean cd 
 > and such. It would be $400 per person for months >of work and up to 
 > 45$-50$ per cd shipped. Does it sound >reasonable ?
 
     first of all, think back to Mindrec's statement.  it said something like
'all proceeds will go to future projects'.  i'll happily volunteer my services
and ask only that my name is put in the credits of the game.  no one is doing
this to become a millionaire.  it's a fun way to create excitement.  i'd be
willing to bet that a translated & packaged PCE engine game would easily turn
a profit (as i'm sure Implode is close to doing [250 copies at $20= $5,000...i
hope the game didn't cost much more than that).  so, let's ask the list:
      Hey List, think of a PC Engine game that you'd like to play in English
with English instructions.  (I'll say, as an example, Y's IV: The Dawn of
Y's)...would you pay $40 to have a US version of this game?  I'd pay $50.

 george

 > Zeograd
 



-----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: endymion@inviolate.com
Date: Thu Nov 28 03:09:40 EST 2002
Subject: Re: the ultimate game request of the homebrewers


I say do what the international copyright laws say to do: ask the 
copyright owner for the use. ;)

I don't personally believe that Falcom would allow it. I don't really 
think any other would allow it, either. Yeah, TelNet isn't making money 
on Valis so why would they care if you translate Valis 4 to English? 
Well probably because they AREN'T MAKING ANY MONEY on hardly anything, 
surely not the way they were ten years ago. Please note that the caps I 
inserted there were to make a point, not because I'm peeved or 
anything, and I am bringing this up because of the way you responded to 
Zeograd, who I believe was only trying to point out how you cannot say 
anything about how another person or entity may wish to legally and 
financially protect their property without asking. said person or 
entity. I think he's as hip to a good idea as you or I, but if it isn't 
public domain then we cannot presume exemption from culpability or even 
escape from notice.

~Alek



-----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: capt692@cox.net
Date: Thu Nov 28 03:51:47 EST 2002
Subject: Implode et all


Anyone keeping track of Implode high scores? My little brother hit 63,453
this evening. That's the best I've seen so far.
Also, on the subject of english hacking Turbo games. Isn't someone outt here
working on Ys IV and Xak 3? And what was that I heard a while back about an
English hack for Ys eternal? BTW, MAG Fest 2 has been slated for September
2003 in Williamsburg, VA. Anyone interested should check out teh website
www.magfest.org . I won't have as much involvement next year as I am
currently trying to get into Grad School, but I might be around. We'll see.
Joe


--- Turbo List Information ---------------------------------------------
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-----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: chmi0013@umn.edu
Date: Thu Nov 28 12:12:57 EST 2002
Subject: Re: The ultimate game request of the homebrewers


 > Copyrights be damned. If Mindrec went
 > through with this and did a Hudson game and say some jerk wanted to report it
 > to Hudson/ Konami of Japan.  Do you really think they'd listen

Someone should really figure out a way to get the rights and do it 
legally. If the companies really care so little about their old titles, 
they should be willing enough to give the translation rights to a 
little homebrew company who just wants to make some old greats playable 
to the English-speaking  audience.


--- Turbo List Information ---------------------------------------------
The Turbo List Home Page has the most inclusive lists of cheats for PCE
and TG games anywhere on the web.  http://joyce.eng.yale.edu/~bt/turbo
 --> cheats for all the details.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: duo16@mindspring.com
Date: Thu Nov 28 12:35:42 EST 2002
Subject: Re: The ultimate request of the homebrewers


    I am really surprised how many people are worried about NEC/ HUDSON and
others coming from Japan to squash such a project.  I know from many years of
knowing some of you people that you have the Secret of Mana 3 English
translation, that you have bought kisdos, that you have paid for Magic Engine
and I don't remember anyone being so worried about because it wasn't on the up
and up.  I wouldn't be opposed to anyone asking permission to have these games
translated but I'm sure we'll probably be ignored.  Japanese ddevelopers only
talk to legitimate publishers.  Those who have read about how difficult for it
was for Victor Ireland to get an audience know what I mean.  If not ignored,
then  money will become as issue because they'll certainly want money for it.
     Anyway, I didn't mean to flame anyone as that has never been what I have
been about.  I do remain heavily skeptical of the legal eagle approach from
people whom I know have things themselves which might not have been approved
by NEC of Japan (if they knew about them).  I'm also willing to bet that many
people would secretly pursue a translated Y's IV if it were released. I'd
still like to hear more feedback.  Anyway, Happy Thankgiving all.


--- Turbo List Information --------------------------------------------
Have questions about the Turbo systems?  Need a list of resources?
Then check out the Turbo Compendium -- your resource guide to turbo
information, http://www.runet.edu/~cguirrer/turbo1.html or issue the
command "get turbo.compendium" to the turbo list server (sans quotes)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Wedgerog1@aol.com
Date: Thu Nov 28 14:01:44 EST 2002
Subject: Re: The ultimate request of the homebrewers


Was it not some bigshot at Hudson who said about a year ago that he was okay 
with emulation of old titles because he's happy that people are still 
interested in those old games?  Or am I mixing it up with another company?  
If translations are something being considered, I'd go ahead and try to 
contact these companies.  They might give permission.  Who knows!  

As for Falcom, I know there's a specific part of their website for licensing 
out their games.  Maybe someone should check that out and contact them?

-Joe R.



-----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: endymion@inviolate.com
Date: Thu Nov 28 15:00:19 EST 2002
Subject: Re: The ultimate request of international copyright laws.



I'm not "worried" about what's on the up and up.
Magic Engine is on the up and up. David Michel programmed it. No sweat.
Kisado is on the up and up. David Shadoff created the thing.
Secret of Mana 3 English translation, is even on the up and up! It is 
not being sold.
If you were asking about just translating a game and then doing so, 
then no big deal! It's on the up and up.

All of that is completely within your or anyone's ability without 
problems. And the golden rule of copyright law that always works is 
just to ask. It is usually not so difficult to get in touch with the 
person or entities who own the material, anyway. And this is all 
because you're talking about distributing the thing for money, even the 
money involved in creating a CD with the translation. There's no 
assurance to the copyright owner that you aren't deciding to put in a 
couple of bucks to compensate for your pain and suffering of learning 
how to program the English into the code, learning Japanese translation 
because that Kanji can be pretty damn difficult, or what have you.

If you want to know the "right" way to do what you are thinking about, 
or more right than you're proposing anyway, visit 
http://www.darkcityproductions and ask the webmaster about his Ys 
remixed music.

~Alek

p.s. Wedge, it was a game designer, I think the guy who created 
Bomberman, he said he was delighted that people were still interested 
in playing his games even after all this time. Maybe that's free 
licence and public defence for doing a Bomberman modification 
publically? ;)



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