| Re: What Makes an Architecture Bizarre? [message #98533 is a reply to message #98414] |
Sun, 21 July 2013 04:43   |
![GreyMaus[1] is currently offline](theme/default/images/offline.png "GreyMaus[1] is currently offline")
GreyMaus[1]
Messages: 1140
Registered: February 2013
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On 2013-07-20, harry <hsf@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>
> "greymausg" <maus@mail.com> wrote in message
> news:slrnkul983.3ss.maus@gmaus.org...
>> On 2013-07-20, Peter Flass <Peter_Flass@Yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> On 7/19/2013 11:09 PM, 127 wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Most of them never will move to the 3rd world. It's just not possible
>>>> for the absolute vast bulk of the service sector that is where most of
>>>> the jobs are now.
>>>
>>> So we buy all our stuff from China and get jobs sweeping each others'
>>> offices?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Dean Swift proposed a society where everyone lived by taking in others
>> washing, we are getting close to that here now.
>
> No, you are doing much more than that, particularly
> with education, medical services, roads and the like.
>
Which are basically taking in others washing, i.e, service
industries.
--
maus
.
.
....
|
|
|
|
| Re: What Makes an Architecture Bizarre? [message #98534 is a reply to message #98417] |
Sun, 21 July 2013 04:43 |
GreyMaus[1]
Messages: 1140
Registered: February 2013
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On 2013-07-20, Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On 20/07/2013 21:36, harry wrote:
>>
>>
>> "Andrew Swallow" <am.swallow@btinternet.com> wrote in message
>> news:lpGdnbkFMpLEVHfMnZ2dnUVZ8uydnZ2d@bt.com...
>>> On 20/07/2013 16:59, Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote:
>>>> Morten Reistad <first@last.name> writes:
>>>> > There is also a quite intense level of competition
>>>> > between jurisdictions when it comes to corporate tax
>>>> > rates. The EU are converging on ca 20%, with even
>>>> > Sweden at 22% in the latest budget.
>>>>
>>>> OECD unveils plan to end 'golden era' of tax avoidance; David Cameron
>>>> has called on the world's leaders to get behind a global crackdown on
>>>> tax avoidance and "break down the walls of corporate secrecy"
>>>> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/consumert ips/tax/10190406/OECD-unveils-plan-to-end-golden-era-of-tax- avoidance.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> He will find that manufacturing occurs in China. China buys its raw
>>> materials directly, mostly from the third world.
>>
>> No, mostly from the first world like Australia.
>>
>> No money for western
>>> governments there. The rest of the world will discover that western
>>> government are bankrupt.
>>>
>>> Andrew Swallow
>>
>
> Australia is the exception. Australia is mined by Australians. Most of
> the raw materials are coming from mines in Africa manned by ex-pat Chinese.
^managed^
some of that mining is incredibly primitive.
>
> Andrew Swallow
--
maus
.
.
....
|
|
|
|
| Re: What Makes a Tax System Bizarre? [message #98535 is a reply to message #98415] |
Sun, 21 July 2013 04:36 |
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On 20 Jul 13 14:45:12 -0800
"Charlie Gibbs" <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> In article <PM0004E1F0DA63F228@aca21a5f.ipt.aol.com>, See.above@aol.com
>>> Nope, because few kids are interested in programming.
>>
>> Programming is like knowing how to drive. It's whre you
>> are coming from and where you are going which is the interesting
>> part. If today's kids never see what's involved with real
>> programming, they' aren't going to know that it exists.
>
> And they don't care. All they want is a chauffeur to take them
> where they want to go.
Even the ones that do make it into programming tend to get caught
by "design patterns" and "class libraries" which gets them as far as route
planning without learning to drive.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
|
|
|
|
| Re: What Makes an Architecture Bizarre? [message #98536 is a reply to message #98242] |
Sun, 21 July 2013 07:27 |
Walter Bushell
Messages: 1834
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
In article <ksdt2v$srh$2@dont-email.me>,
Peter Flass <Peter_Flass@Yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 7/19/2013 11:27 AM, jmfbahciv wrote:
>>
>> I have no social circle. you are it.
>
> You're in big trouble then. Maybe we all are.
Everybody say their own Kyrie Eleison. (The Vatican Rag is optional.)
--
Gambling with Other People's Money is the meth of the fiscal industry.
me -- in the spirit of Karl and Groucho Marx
|
|
|
|
| Re: What Makes an Architecture Bizarre? [message #98549 is a reply to message #98492] |
Sun, 21 July 2013 08:45 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On 7/21/2013 1:33 AM, Walter Banks wrote:
>
>
> harry wrote:
>
>> "Andrew Swallow" <am.swallow@btinternet.com> wrote in message
>> news:qZqdnfRcaPovhXbMnZ2dnUVZ7q-dnZ2d@bt.com...
>>> On 20/07/2013 21:36, harry wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Andrew Swallow" <am.swallow@btinternet.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:lpGdnbkFMpLEVHfMnZ2dnUVZ8uydnZ2d@bt.com...
>>>> > On 20/07/2013 16:59, Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote:
>>>> >> Morten Reistad <first@last.name> writes:
>>>> >>> There is also a quite intense level of competition
>>>> >>> between jurisdictions when it comes to corporate tax
>>>> >>> rates. The EU are converging on ca 20%, with even
>>>> >>> Sweden at 22% in the latest budget.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> OECD unveils plan to end 'golden era' of tax avoidance; David Cameron
>>>> >> has called on the world's leaders to get behind a global crackdown on
>>>> >> tax avoidance and "break down the walls of corporate secrecy"
>>>> >> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/consumert ips/tax/10190406/OECD-unveils-plan-to-end-golden-era-of-tax- avoidance.html
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> > He will find that manufacturing occurs in China. China buys its raw
>>>> > materials directly, mostly from the third world.
>>>>
>>>> No, mostly from the first world like Australia.
>>>>
>>>> No money for western
>>>> > governments there. The rest of the world will discover that western
>>>> > government are bankrupt.
>>>> >
>>>> > Andrew Swallow
>>>>
>>>
>>> Australia is the exception.
>>
>> No, not when measured by the where
>> China gets most of its raw materials from.
>>
>>> Australia is mined by Australians.
>>
>> It is mostly mined by companies
>> with a majority foreign ownership.
>>
>> Most of
>>> the raw materials are coming from mines in Africa
>>
>> Which is only a tiny subset of the raw materials China imports.
>>
>>> manned by ex-pat Chinese.
>>
>> That isn't right either. There is certainly some chinese management
>> but the bulk of those actually doing the mining are not chinese.
>>
>> And China gets a lot of its raw materials from the 2nd
>> world like Brazil and other parts of South America too.
>>
>
> My fourth example for the Contrairian AI assignment
> morph into a sockpuppet and be instantly recognizable
> even without the swearing
>
How many does that make now? I think about six, but I've filtered he
most obnoxious ones.
--
Pete
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: What Makes Social Insurance Not Bizarre? [message #98552 is a reply to message #98457] |
Sun, 21 July 2013 10:03 |
John Levine
Messages: 1405
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
>> No, you don't. You can collect on someone else's contributions.
>> That's one of the main problems with SS. There iisn't a 1::1
>> contributor::receiver ratio.
>
> That's as much a result of the legal requirement to put the money into
> low interest bonds as it is a result of the original startup
> imbalance.
No, as explained before, that's because SS is social insurance, not a
defined contribution pension.
As far as those low interest bonds, do you really want the Social
Security Administration picking which stocks in which to invest $2.5
trillion?
By the way, the SSA confirms that as of the end of 2012, the SSA trust
fund is still growing, not shrinking:
http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/ProgData/tsOps.html
--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. http://jl.ly
|
|
|
|
| Re: What Makes an Architecture Bizarre? [message #98553 is a reply to message #97883] |
Sun, 21 July 2013 10:06 |
Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> writes:
> I have no social circle. you are it.
I speak from experience.
You complain about your health and being easily tired too.
Forums can provide a feeling of human contact,
but you need to get out more and most
important you need to exercise.
If you can walk around your block, do so, every day.
If you can't do that much, at least go outside.
Talk to however is out there.
You might consider keeping your crazy politics to yourself until you're
sure your dealing with a like minded person.
I don't like your crazy politics, but I still wish you well.
--
Dan Espen
|
|
|
|
| Re: What Makes a Tax System Bizarre? [message #98555 is a reply to message #98535] |
Sun, 21 July 2013 10:36 |
jmfbahciv
Messages: 6173
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On 20 Jul 13 14:45:12 -0800
> "Charlie Gibbs" <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>
>> In article <PM0004E1F0DA63F228@aca21a5f.ipt.aol.com>, See.above@aol.com
>
>>>> Nope, because few kids are interested in programming.
>>>
>>> Programming is like knowing how to drive. It's whre you
>>> are coming from and where you are going which is the interesting
>>> part. If today's kids never see what's involved with real
>>> programming, they' aren't going to know that it exists.
>>
>> And they don't care. All they want is a chauffeur to take them
>> where they want to go.
>
> Even the ones that do make it into programming tend to get caught
> by "design patterns" and "class libraries" which gets them as far as route
> planning without learning to drive.
>
Then the computer biz had better start to figure out how to
capture the interest of those who like to tinker and fix things.
/BAH
|
|
|
|
| Re: What Makes a Tax System Bizarre? [message #98557 is a reply to message #98360] |
Sun, 21 July 2013 10:36 |
jmfbahciv
Messages: 6173
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Stephen Sprunk wrote:
> On 20-Jul-13 12:07, Andrew Swallow wrote:
>> On 20/07/2013 14:45, jmfbahciv wrote: {snip}
>>> It's the absence of training which is the big problem. Instead the
>>> rabids want to control who fucks and when they fuck and how many
>>> kids they are to produce.
>>
>> They want to do the fun bits. Fun for the person giving the orders
>> that is. So they are not interested in doing the work part of the
>> teaching.
>
> ... nor do they accept any responsibility for the predictable results of
> what they order others to teach (or not teach).
Well, here is where some of that illogic comes in. Those predictable
results "prove" that they are right and use the stats as a feedback
mechanism to push their idiocies harder. They are winning. The
nastiest always do win.
/BAH
|
|
|
|
| Re: What Makes a Tax System Bizarre? [message #98558 is a reply to message #98359] |
Sun, 21 July 2013 10:36 |
jmfbahciv
Messages: 6173
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Stephen Sprunk wrote:
> On 20-Jul-13 08:45, jmfbahciv wrote:
>> Stephen Sprunk wrote:
>>> On 18-Jul-13 09:31, jmfbahciv wrote:
>>>> The males sure don't [use condoms]. There's myths out there
>>>> which say that using condoms doesn't give full satisfaction.
>>>
>>> It ain't a myth. I assume you're female?
>>
>> Yup.
>
> You are unqualified to comment on that specific matter.
I did say "myth". ;-)
>
>> Do female condoms also not give the same sensations?
>
> I don't know; I've never used one or even seen one, nor do I know how
> to. I was referring to male condoms, which is what people usually mean
> when they don't specify.
I was just curious. I've never known anyone who used them.
>
>>>> so birth control is usually left up to the female.
>>>
>>> RISUG, when it finally gets approved, will be the first real option
>>> to change that. Whether it actually does, though, remains to be
>>> seen, especially now that so many states have banned telling kids
>>> the truth about birth control (and STDs).
>>
>> It's the absence of training which is the big problem.
>
> Not entirely; even back in the brief period when truthful sex ed was not
> just allowed but actually mandatory, there was still some level of teen
> pregnancy because many teens simply didn't have access to (or couldn't
> afford) it, even if they knew about it and wanted it.
The training reference had to do with the action, not the printed
instructions.
>
>> Instead the rabids want to control who fucks and when they fuck
>> and how many kids they are to produce.
>
> You imply you don't agree with the neocons out one side of your mouth,
I never have.
> but you spout their propaganda out the other side.
No. I'm against spending more than what is taken in. I'm against
governments telling everyone what to do from cradle to grave.
I'm against politicians telling me how to spend my money or
taking my money instead of telling me how to spend it. The
neocons around here think they have a right to spend my money
and have access to all my assets. That's communism.
I believe that each individual should support him/herself,
make his/her own decisions, and live with the consequences of those
actions.
Now if that's neocon, then rabid Right are called the wrong name.
/BAH
|
|
|
|
| Re: What Makes an Architecture Bizarre? [message #98559 is a reply to message #98325] |
Sun, 21 July 2013 10:36 |
jmfbahciv
Messages: 6173
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Stephen Sprunk wrote:
> On 20-Jul-13 08:46, jmfbahciv wrote:
>> Stephen Sprunk wrote:
>>> On 19-Jul-13 10:27, jmfbahciv wrote:
>>>> Stephen Sprunk wrote:
>>>> > Not necessarily; you can sock away a lot of money in 401k/403b
>>>> > and IRA accounts. SS benefits are generally pitiful, though.
>>>>
>>>> But the amount you can extract each year without paying taxes is
>>>> small. You can't even extract the interest/dividends the fund
>>>> pays.
>>>
>>> Right; above ~$20k in "earned" income, including 401k/403b and IRA
>>> distributions, you're going to be paying income taxes. I don't
>>> recall if those distributions are also subject to FICA taxes.
>>
>> So far they're not but somebody in this thread suggested it. I
>> object to that one too.
>
> I don't object to it, as long as the rich have to pay the same taxes.
>
>>> The rich, in contrast, get _their_ retirement* savings taxed at the
>>> much lower rates for "unearned" income.
>>
>> So what? They've already paid taxes on the earned income which
>> bought the stocks, bonds and bills which produce unearned income.
>
> In most cases, they inherited their wealth and sat on their asses for
> their entire life, watching the unearned income compound itself--at a
> far lower tax rate than people who actually created that wealth.
If they use the money to promote more industry, the money is not
idle.
The people who create wealth are not those people who clip
coupons for a living. The ones who clip doupons are the ones
who fund the businesses which will expand into more kinds
of businesses.
/BAH
|
|
|
|
| Re: What Makes an Architecture Bizarre? [message #98562 is a reply to message #98375] |
Sun, 21 July 2013 10:36 |
jmfbahciv
Messages: 6173
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Stephen Sprunk wrote:
> On 20-Jul-13 13:24, Dan Espen wrote:
>> Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> writes:
>>> On 19-Jul-13 10:27, jmfbahciv wrote:
>>>> My taxes are going to double beause the rates for unearned
>>>> income have doubled.
>>>
>>> Cite?
>>
>> She has to be talking about dividends, but as usual...
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualified_dividend
>>
>> ... From 2003 to 2007, qualified dividends were taxed at 15% or 5%
>> depending on the individual's ordinary income tax bracket, and from
>> 2008 to 2012, the tax rate on qualified dividends was reduced to 0%
>> for taxpayers in the 10% and 15% ordinary income tax brackets, and
>> starting in 2013 the rates on qualified dividends are 0%, 15% and
>> 20%. The 20% rate is for taxpayers in the 39.6% tax bracket.
>
> That text only made sense to me after I looked at the table below, which
> shows that the only change in 2013 is that, for those in the reinstated
> 39.6% bracket for ordinary income, the tax rate for qualified dividends
> goes from 15% to 20%, which is hardly "doubled".
Sigh! Now look at the first line of the Table on the other
page. Note the 10%.
/BAH
|
|
|
|
| Re: What Makes an Architecture Bizarre? [message #98563 is a reply to message #98357] |
Sun, 21 July 2013 10:36 |
jmfbahciv
Messages: 6173
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Stephen Sprunk wrote:
> On 19-Jul-13 10:27, jmfbahciv wrote:
>> Stephen Sprunk wrote:
>>> On 16-Jul-13 07:21, jmfbahciv wrote:
>>>> Buffet is nuts.
>>>
>>> This is where we fundamentally disagree. He is quite possibly the
>>> savviest investor of our era, which requires an understanding of
>>> economics and finance that is undoubtedly better than ours. So,
>>> when he publicly takes a position on something (which is rare) that
>>> is against his own self-interest (even rarer), that is worth paying
>>> attention to.
>>
>> I did pay attention; he's nuts.
>
> Would that I had his particular affliction, because it seems to be quite
> lucrative.
He can afford to say silly things like that.
>
>>>> You are again lumpiing unearned income with earned income.
>>>
>>> Whether income is "earned" or "unearned" is often a matter of how
>>> you do the accounting--and the current tax code provides enormous
>>> incentive to classify as much as possible as "unearned" to get a
>>> lower tax rate.
>>>
>>> I fundamentally disagree with the notion that unearned income
>>> should be taxed at a lower rate than earned income. If anything,
>>> it should be taxed at a _higher_ rate, but for now I'd settle for
>>> the same rate.
>>
>> It is going to be the same rate as of this year.
>
> Really? I can't believe a change that significant made it through
> Congress at all, much less without the media mentioning it once.
Congress passed new tax laws on December 31, 2012. It affected
2012 and later years' taxes. It took the IRS two months to get
the instructions and forms for 2012 straightened out becuase of
the changes in that law for 2012. It took them until the end
of March, 2013 to get the estimated tax forms and instructions
out becuase of the changes in that law. qualified dividends
tax break goes away is the big one affecting me (that I know
about--I'm expecting more surprises when I have to do the
real forms).
>
>> I strongly disagree with you on this point.
>
> It's a free country; you have the right to be wrong.
ROTFL. So do you.
>
>> My taxes are going to double beause the rates for unearned income
>> have doubled.
>
> Cite?
Qualified dividends. I'll be paying 20% instead of the 10%. I
haven't gone through the "new" stuff for capital gains.
/BAH
|
|
|
|
| Re: What Makes a Tax System Bizarre? [message #98564 is a reply to message #98367] |
Sun, 21 July 2013 10:36 |
jmfbahciv
Messages: 6173
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Rod Speed wrote:
> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote
>> Rod Speed wrote
>>> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote
>>>> Patrick Scheible wrote
>>>> > jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote
>
>>>> >> There is "free" and then there is using it. For the
>>>> >> pill you have to remember to take it every day at the
>>>> >> same time; it's effectiveness (used to be) 95% or so.
>>>> >> That's all based on the little fact that there are no
>>>> >> irregular menstration prolbems. You have to pay tons of
>>>> >> money to get and use the pill. Condoms require
>>>> >> cooperation from the male, which is not common,
>>>> >> although the AIDS thing may have helped there.
>
>>>> > There's Norplant and similar hormone-based birth
>>>> > control that only requires a shot quarterly or yearly.
>
>>>> I'll bet the cost is equivalent to taking the pill.
>
>>> You've just lost that bet. There's a reason its used in the 3rd world.
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norplant#Use_in_the_developing_ world
>
>> I thought we were talking about US females.
>
> Yes, but that 3rd world result proves that it is much cheaper than the pill.
>
The reason other countries acan buy cheap is because the USians have to pay
high prices.
/BAH
|
|
|
|
| Re: What Makes an Architecture Bizarre? [message #98567 is a reply to message #98383] |
Sun, 21 July 2013 10:36 |
jmfbahciv
Messages: 6173
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Dan Espen wrote:
> Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> writes:
>
>> On 20-Jul-13 13:24, Dan Espen wrote:
>>> Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> writes:
>>>> On 19-Jul-13 10:27, jmfbahciv wrote:
>>>> > My taxes are going to double beause the rates for unearned
>>>> > income have doubled.
>>>>
>>>> Cite?
>>>
>>> She has to be talking about dividends, but as usual...
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualified_dividend
>>>
>>> ... From 2003 to 2007, qualified dividends were taxed at 15% or 5%
>>> depending on the individual's ordinary income tax bracket, and from
>>> 2008 to 2012, the tax rate on qualified dividends was reduced to 0%
>>> for taxpayers in the 10% and 15% ordinary income tax brackets, and
>>> starting in 2013 the rates on qualified dividends are 0%, 15% and
>>> 20%. The 20% rate is for taxpayers in the 39.6% tax bracket.
>>
>> That text only made sense to me after I looked at the table below, which
>> shows that the only change in 2013 is that, for those in the reinstated
>> 39.6% bracket for ordinary income, the tax rate for qualified dividends
>> goes from 15% to 20%, which is hardly "doubled".
>
> Well, then BAH will remain clueless because she won't look at any links.
> She is, of course, not in the 39.6 bracket, so no change.
Ande you are full of shit. I've already done my estimated taxes for 2013.
>
> Too bad, I'm collecting a bunch of dividends myself, but would fully
> support dividends being treated as ordinary income.
You may volunteer to pay it; I'm not.
/BAH
|
|
|
|
| Re: What Makes a Tax System Bizarre? [message #98568 is a reply to message #98415] |
Sun, 21 July 2013 10:36 |
jmfbahciv
Messages: 6173
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> In article <PM0004E1F0DA63F228@aca21a5f.ipt.aol.com>, See.above@aol.com
> (jmfbahciv) writes:
>
>> Rod Speed wrote:
>>
>>> "jmfbahciv" <See.above@aol.com> wrote in message
>>> news:PM0004E1DDC06BDA39@ac810898.ipt.aol.com...
>>>
>>>> I said it once and I'll state it again with stronger lanugage.
>>>> Every kid should have a copy of DEC's _Introduction to
>>>> Programming_.
>>>
>>> Nope, because few kids are interested in programming.
>>
>> Programming is like knowing how to drive. It's whre you
>> are coming from and where you are going which is the interesting
>> part. If today's kids never see what's involved with real
>> programming, they' aren't going to know that it exists.
>
> And they don't care. All they want is a chauffeur to take them
> where they want to go.
That may be true for a majority. Mark Crispin said he was finding
lots of kids who had that curiosity itch and reveled in getting
underneath the GUIhoods.
/BAH
|
|
|
|
| Re: What Makes a Tax System Bizarre? [message #98569 is a reply to message #98319] |
Sun, 21 July 2013 10:36 |
jmfbahciv
Messages: 6173
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Morten Reistad wrote:
> In article <PM0004E1C894AD8BCC@ac81348a.ipt.aol.com>,
> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>> Stephen Sprunk wrote:
>>> On 16-Jul-13 14:01, Dan Espen wrote:
>>>> Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> writes:
>>>> > Ditto for many other industries. The tech industry in particular
>>>> > has been having problems for decades, hence the H-1B visa program.
>>>> > Even that can only provide a few hundred thousand skilled workers
>>>> > per year, though, and that is but a drop in the bucket compared to
>>>> > the demand that our pitiful educational system is leaving
>>>> > completely unmet.
>>>>
>>>> Every off shore worker I've seen hired ...
>>>
>>> What I said above was about US-based workers; offshoring is another
>>> matter entirely.
>>>
>>>> was as a result of a native worker being fired, and not fired for
>>>> cause.
>>>
>>> "Fired" means terminated for cause. What you're referring to are
>>> layoffs, which is when jobs are eliminated.
>>
>> CBS radio news reported a list of skills which are missing. IIRC,
>> IT work was 4th or 5th on the list. Somehow I can't believe that
>> one.
>
> I can. The US is exporting IT jobs everywhere. I have at least half a
> dozen friends & aquaintances working for US IT companies that came
> to them, here in ex$pen$ive scandinavia; all of them seemingly out
> of desperation for finding manpower.
It's such easy work. I don't see how there could be dearth of
people who can do the work. I'm NOT arguing--I'm simply that
surprised.
/BAH
|
|
|
|
| Re: What Makes a Tax System Bizarre? [message #98570 is a reply to message #98416] |
Sun, 21 July 2013 10:36 |
jmfbahciv
Messages: 6173
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> In article <ksch5o$iua$1@dont-email.me>, numerist@aquaporin4.com
> (Charles Richmond) writes:
>
>> "Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz" <spamtrap@library.lspace.org.invalid> wrote
>> in message news:51e98462$5$fuzhry+tra$mr2ice@news.patriot.net...
>>
>>> In <87bo5y8riu.fsf@cluon.com>, on 07/19/2013
>>> at 11:04 AM, Lawrence Statton <lawrence@cluon.com> said:
>>>
>>>> My first exposure to that was in differential calculus -- this shit
>>>> is so EASY! What kind of brain-damaged MORON are you that this isn't
>>>> immediately obvious??! My second exposure was integral calclus.
>>>> This shit is so HARD! What kind of brain-damaged MORON am I that
>>>> this isn't immediately obvious??!
>>>
>>> It also depends on what you're learning from. As a kid I read
>>> "Calculus for the Practical Man" and it didn't seem to make sense.
>>> A teacher gave me a copy of Thomas, which actually gave proper
>>> definitions instead of dumbed down hand waving, and everything was
>>> clear.
>>
>> Yeah, I heartily concur on this! I have found many "dumbed-down"
>> treatments to be much more difficult for the very reason you cited:
>> they don't tell you everything you need to really understand things.
>> To much of the unwashed masses, a "smaller book" means the subject
>> is "less complicated". That's just marketing to reduce the
>> information content and make the book smaller or the print larger.
>> I want the facts plus more examples.
>
> If I were ever to try studying math again, I pray that the textbooks
> I read don't follow the pattern that seemed to be standard back in my
> university days: a couple of pages of trivial introductory material
> followed by the magic phrase: "From this it is obvious that..." -
> at which point the book jumps into the next galaxy.
>
<GRIN> I have the book _Conceptual Mathematics_, Lawvere and Schanuel
is on my list of things I have to study.
/BAH
|
|
|
|
| Re: What Makes an Architecture Bizarre? [message #98571 is a reply to message #98320] |
Sun, 21 July 2013 10:36 |
jmfbahciv
Messages: 6173
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Morten Reistad wrote:
> In article <PM0004E1CA0DE6058B@ac81348a.ipt.aol.com>,
> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>> Walter Banks wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> jmfbahciv wrote:
>>>
>>>> Anytime somebody starts to demand that unearned income be taxed at the
>>>> same level as the high income bracket, or higher as some suggestions
>>>> here implied, I get very, very worried becuase these people are
>>>> intelligent and have spent a lifetime doing analytical thinking.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Why shouldn't unearned income be taxed as income?
>>
>> Among other things, it's already been taxed at least twice
>> at the higher rates of earned income.
>
> You keep focusing on the individual tax rates.
Because that's the "solutions" being presented for "getting
the rich". All of those suggestions aimed at getting more
money for the government out of the top 1% bracket will never
affect the 1% but will be implemented for the middle class.
That's how Congress works.
> These are
> only a minor part of the taxes for the 1%. They keep their
> wealth in corporations, and take out a pretty high part of
> their consomption through corporate channels, as expenses
> for perfectly legitimate business endeavours. Like yacht
> races, formula 1 events etc.
>
> These corporations are localised in states with decent
> business climates. Like Delaware, Nevada, Ireland, Cyprus etc.
> This is not "just" about the tax rate, it is about the
> whole business climate. Different corporations go for
> different jurisdictions.
>
>>> Earned income is limited to what can be earned in 2000
>>> hours of labour a year, unearned income is when income
>>> goes exponential. (Losses in unearned income are linear
>>> and earnings are a power function) there is a lot of incentive
>>> to make a living that way.
>>
>> I don't understand what you mean. Unearned income, IME,
>> is dividends from owning stock shares and interest from
>> bank accounts and owning bonds (including t-bills, etc.).
>
> The really rich will never take out a wage/salary; or
> only do so as a diversion for the taxman. The real bills
> are invoiced, from some company.
I understand that. that's why Buffet's tax rate is lower
than his secretary's. These people have been arguing with
me that Busffet is right and I'm wrong. Buffet does
everything he can to avoid paying taxes; he's supposed to.
But making that statement was either irresponsible or nuts.
I don't think he's irresponsible becuase his stock price
would plummet.
>
>> If you want to start a philosophical discussion about
>> why unearned income tax rates should be less than earned
>> income tax rates, I'd be happy to participate.
>>
>> The current tax rates are trying to herd people to save
>> more money via stocks, bonds, and government paper.
>> Do you really want to stop that?
>
> There is also a quite intense level of competition
> between jurisdictions when it comes to corporate tax
> rates. The EU are converging on ca 20%, with even
> Sweden at 22% in the latest budget.
Is 20% a good number? I don't know enough about
business/economics to judge.
/BAH
|
|
|
|
| Re: What Makes a Tax System Bizarre? [message #98582 is a reply to message #97885] |
Sun, 21 July 2013 11:47 |
Anne & Lynn Wheel
Messages: 3156
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> writes:
> can't anybody say "ENRON" anymore????
>
> and now the "ENRON" comment: Chase, Once Considered "The Good Bank,"
> Is About to Pay Another Massive Settlement
> http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/chase-on ce-considered-the-good-bank-is-about-to-pay-another-massive- settlement-20130718
>
> from above:
>
> Chase is about to pay yet another ginormous settlement for cheating
> and stealing from the public. According to the Wall Street Journal,
> the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission (FERC) will fine Chase "close
> to $1 billion" for manipulating energy prices in Enron-esque fashion
> in Michigan and California
>
> ... snip ...
recent references ENRON-like commodity manipulation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013j.html#6 Barclays, Traders Fined $487.9 Million by U.S. Regulator
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013j.html#14 Barclays, Traders Fined $487.9 Million by U.S. Regulator
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013j.html#15 What Makes a Tax System Bizarre?
other posts mentioning ENRON
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#enron
recent post wallstreet seems to be predisposed to fraud and crime:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013j.html#20 What Makes a Tax System Bizarre?
Fed Reviews Rule on Big Banks' Commodity Trades After Complaints
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-07-20/fed-reviews-rule-on -big-banks-commodity-trades-after-complaints.html
above references Federal Reserve giving too-big-to-fail approval to
speculate in (aka "manipulate") commodities ... plays role in the recent
ENRON-like manipulations by too-big-to-fail
A Shuffle of Aluminum, but to Banks, Pure Gold
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/21/business/a-shuffle-of-alum inum-but-to-banks-pure-gold.html?emc=eta1&_r=0
How Goldman Made $5 Billion By Manipulating Aluminum Inventories (and
Copper is Up Next)
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2013/07/how-goldman-made-5-bi llion-by-manipulating-aluminum-inventories-and-copper-is-up- next.html
Goldman's Alleged Aluminum Scam
http://www.businessinsider.com/goldmans-alleged-aluminum-sca m-2013-7
past posts mentioning too-big-to-fail, too-big-to-prosecute,
too-big-to-jail
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#too-big-to-fail
"Vampire Squid" had chapter on "19 secret letters" giving approval for
commodity speculation ... including resulting in the huge spike in oil
over $100 the summer of 2008. misc. past posts mentioning vampire squid:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010h.html#27 In the News: SEC storms the 'Castle'
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010o.html#59 They always think we don't understand
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010p.html#6 What banking is. (Essential for predicting the end of finance as we know it.)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010p.html#7 What banking is. (Essential for predicting the end of finance as we know it.)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011.html#53 What do you think about fraud prevention in the governments?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011.html#55 America's Defense Meltdown
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011b.html#59 Productivity And Bubbles
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011d.html#21 The first personal computer (PC)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011f.html#90 CFTC Limits on Commodity Speculation May Wait Until Early 2012
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011g.html#17 Hey all you Old Geeks (and younger ones too), with gas heading towards $6.00/gal, remote support, satellite offices and home office will become more cost effective
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011j.html#40 Advice from Richard P. Feynman
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011k.html#46 Sand in Machine Makes a Stable Market
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011k.html#76 FIA shocked and outraged after Senator leaks oil trading data
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011k.html#89 The Grand Message in the Conceptual Spiral
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011l.html#21 HOLLOW STATES and a CRISIS OF CAPITALISM
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011m.html#18 computer bootlaces
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011o.html#47 Civilization, doomed?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011o.html#61 Civilization, doomed?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011p.html#130 vampires in financial infrastructure
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011p.html#144 Fingerspitzengefühl
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012b.html#19 "Buffett Tax" and truth in numbers
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012b.html#84 A Conversation with Peter Thiel
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012d.html#61 Why Republicans Aren't Mentioning the Real Cause of Rising Prices at the Gas Pump
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012e.html#57 speculation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012f.html#77 Vampire Squid
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012g.html#7 Adult Supervision
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012g.html#79 Monopoly/ Cartons of Punch Cards
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012i.html#1 Monopoly/ Cartons of Punch Cards
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012i.html#92 Naked emperors, holy cows and Libor
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012m.html#42 General Mills computer
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012n.html#1 STOP PRESS! An Auditor has been brought to task for a failed bank!
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012n.html#20 General Mills computer
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013.html#15 Search Google, 1960:s-style
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013b.html#41 Adair Turner: A New Debt-Free Money Advocate
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013f.html#34 What Makes an Architecture Bizarre?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013h.html#30 'Big four' accountants 'use knowledge of Treasury to help rich avoid tax'
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013h.html#37 "Highway Patrol" back on TV
--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970
|
|
|
|
| Re: What Makes a Tax System Bizarre? [message #98583 is a reply to message #98555] |
Sun, 21 July 2013 11:45 |
cb
Messages: 300
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
In article <PM0004E205D317F77A@aca36f6b.ipt.aol.com>,
jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
> Then the computer biz had better start to figure out how to
> capture the interest of those who like to tinker and fix things.
People who like to tinker and fix this can do that in various ways that
relate to computers.
The popularity of 3D printers and other things around them is one such: it
lets people create or recreate actual physical things in a reasonably
straightforward fashion and with an investment, both financial and in
terms of time or skills that have to be learned, that is within reasonable
limits. It also makes it possible for someone to create designs that can
be shared with someone elsewhere in the world who can then print
themselves a copy of that design - making it possible to share not just
software, but hardware.
Related to this is a matching increase in wanting to design things
(physical things), which includes 3D modeling both in more 'artistic' ways
using software like Blender where 3D geometry is manipulated using a GUI,
or in a more 'programmatic' fashion using things like OpenSCAD where 3D
geometry is created using constructive solid geometry. This can be either
in the context of wanting to use 3D printers to achieve unrelated objects,
or to make different, improved, 3D printers.
Similarly related are things like the Arduino and other easy-to-use
embedded platforms: these, and related embedded controllers and such, are
used in things like those 3D printers that can be built at home -
precisely because Arduino and its relatives are easily accessible, easy to
program, easy to interface with the 'real world' sich as LEDs, servos,
stepper motors, various kinds of sensors, etc - to make things move,
light, react to their environment, and so on.
But as usual: most people don't particularly care, and shouldn't have to.
For those who want to tinker, there are lots of ways where modern GUIs and
such not only don't get in the way but are actually helpful.
> /BAH
// Christian
|
|
|
|
| Re: What Makes a Tax System Bizarre? [message #98585 is a reply to message #98558] |
Sun, 21 July 2013 12:46 |
Walter Banks
Messages: 1000
Registered: July 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
jmfbahciv wrote:
> No. I'm against spending more than what is taken in. I'm against
> governments telling everyone what to do from cradle to grave.
> I'm against politicians telling me how to spend my money or
> taking my money instead of telling me how to spend it. The
> neocons around here think they have a right to spend my money
> and have access to all my assets. That's communism.
>
> I believe that each individual should support him/herself,
> make his/her own decisions, and live with the consequences of those
> actions.
Sounds more to me a libertarian
How do you resolve the cases where your freedoms interact with
someone else who is exercising the same freedoms?
w..
|
|
|
|
| Re: What Makes an Unemployment Myth Bizarre? [message #98587 is a reply to message #98532] |
Sun, 21 July 2013 09:19 |
Shmuel (Seymour J.) M
Messages: 3286
Registered: July 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
In <slrnkun582.3r5.maus@gmaus.org>, on 07/21/2013
at 08:43 AM, greymausg <maus@mail.com> said:
> This usage stirs a memory, where does it come from?
Various editors on IBM platforms, e.g., ISPF/PDF EDIT, use two quoted
strings rather than[1] the /to/from/ common in the *ix and PC worlds.
[1] Or in addition to, e.g., TSO EDIT
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT <http://patriot.net/~shmuel>
Unsolicited bulk E-mail subject to legal action. I reserve the
right to publicly post or ridicule any abusive E-mail. Reply to
domain Patriot dot net user shmuel+news to contact me. Do not
reply to spamtrap@library.lspace.org
|
|
|
|
| Re: What Makes a Tax System Bizarre? [message #98596 is a reply to message #98558] |
Sun, 21 July 2013 17:36 |
Stephen Sprunk
Messages: 2166
Registered: March 2013
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On 21-Jul-13 09:36, jmfbahciv wrote:
> Stephen Sprunk wrote:
>> On 20-Jul-13 08:45, jmfbahciv wrote:
>>> Stephen Sprunk wrote:
>>>> On 18-Jul-13 09:31, jmfbahciv wrote:
>>>> > The males sure don't [use condoms]. There's myths out there
>>>> > which say that using condoms doesn't give full satisfaction.
>>>>
>>>> It ain't a myth. I assume you're female?
>>>
>>> Yup.
>>
>> You are unqualified to comment on that specific matter.
>
> I did say "myth". ;-)
"Myth" implies that the statement isn't true, whereas I (and any other
guy who's used them) can tell you that it certainly is.
>>> It's the absence of [condom] training which is the big problem.
>>
>> Not entirely; even back in the brief period when truthful sex ed
>> was not just allowed but actually mandatory, there was still some
>> level of teen pregnancy because many teens simply didn't have
>> access to (or couldn't afford) it, even if they knew about it and
>> wanted it.
>
> The training reference had to do with the action, not the printed
> instructions.
I went through HS during the period that truthful sex ed was required,
and we were graded on our ability to put condoms on bananas.
>>> Instead the rabids want to control who fucks and when they fuck
>>> and how many kids they are to produce.
>>
>> You imply you don't agree with the neocons out one side of your
>> mouth,
>
> I never have.
>
>> but you spout their propaganda out the other side.
>
> No. I'm against spending more than what is taken in.
You're also against taking in enough money to pay for spending, and that
hypocrisy is straight out of the neocon playbook, as written by Grover
Nordquist.
> The neocons around here think they have a right to spend my money
> and have access to all my assets. That's communism.
Neocons are right-wing Republicans and particularly the Tea Party, and
that's whose propaganda you're spouting. Heck, even your complaints
against them are straight out of their own speeches.
S
--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking
|
|
|
|
| Re: What Makes an Tax System Bizarre? [message #98597 is a reply to message #98563] |
Sun, 21 July 2013 17:36 |
Stephen Sprunk
Messages: 2166
Registered: March 2013
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On 21-Jul-13 09:36, jmfbahciv wrote:
> Stephen Sprunk wrote:
>> On 19-Jul-13 10:27, jmfbahciv wrote:
>>> Stephen Sprunk wrote:
>>>> I fundamentally disagree with the notion that unearned income
>>>> should be taxed at a lower rate than earned income. If
>>>> anything, it should be taxed at a _higher_ rate, but for now
>>>> I'd settle for the same rate.
>>>
>>> It is going to be the same rate as of this year.
>>
>> Really? I can't believe a change that significant made it through
>> Congress at all, much less without the media mentioning it once.
>
> Congress passed new tax laws on December 31, 2012. It affected 2012
> and later years' taxes. It took the IRS two months to get the
> instructions and forms for 2012 straightened out becuase of the
> changes in that law for 2012. It took them until the end of March,
> 2013 to get the estimated tax forms and instructions out becuase of
> the changes in that law. qualified dividends tax break goes away is
> the big one affecting me (that I know about--I'm expecting more
> surprises when I have to do the real forms).
You still haven't done your 2012 taxes yet?
Even so, the only change to qualified dividends is that those in the top
bracket now pay 20% instead of 15%.
>>> My taxes are going to double beause the rates for unearned
>>> income have doubled.
>>
>> Cite?
>
> Qualified dividends. I'll be paying 20% instead of the 10%. I
> haven't gone through the "new" stuff for capital gains.
There has never been a 10% tax rate on qualified dividends, and the new
20% tax rate for those only applies if your ordinary income puts you in
the reinstated 39.6% bracket--in which case you would have been paying
15%, not 10%, on the same qualified dividend income last year.
S
--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking
|
|
|
|
| Re: What Makes an Tax System Bizarre? [message #98599 is a reply to message #98562] |
Sun, 21 July 2013 17:36 |
Stephen Sprunk
Messages: 2166
Registered: March 2013
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On 21-Jul-13 09:36, jmfbahciv wrote:
> Stephen Sprunk wrote:
>> On 20-Jul-13 13:24, Dan Espen wrote:
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualified_dividend
>>>
>>> ... From 2003 to 2007, qualified dividends were taxed at 15% or
>>> 5% depending on the individual's ordinary income tax bracket, and
>>> from 2008 to 2012, the tax rate on qualified dividends was
>>> reduced to 0% for taxpayers in the 10% and 15% ordinary income
>>> tax brackets, and starting in 2013 the rates on qualified
>>> dividends are 0%, 15% and 20%. The 20% rate is for taxpayers in
>>> the 39.6% tax bracket.
>>
>> That text only made sense to me after I looked at the table below,
>> which shows that the only change in 2013 is that, for those in the
>> reinstated 39.6% bracket for ordinary income, the tax rate for
>> qualified dividends goes from 15% to 20%, which is hardly
>> "doubled".
>
> Sigh! Now look at the first line of the Table on the other page.
> Note the 10%.
What table on what other page?
S
--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking
|
|
|
|
| Re: What Makes a Tax System Bizarre? [message #98601 is a reply to message #97175] |
Sun, 21 July 2013 17:59 |
jgh
Messages: 3
Registered: July 2013
Karma: 0
|
Junior Member |
|
|
> Peter Flass wrote:
>>> why did they get pregnant in the first place? Because birth control
>>> is simply too expensive for someone without health insurance.
£1 for a pack of three condoms too expensive?
JGH
|
|
|
|
| Re: What Makes a Tax System Bizarre? [message #98602 is a reply to message #97222] |
Sun, 21 July 2013 18:07 |
jgh
Messages: 3
Registered: July 2013
Karma: 0
|
Junior Member |
|
|
Stephen Sprunk wrote:
>> Condoms don’t cost much.
> But they're not very effective in practice, over the long run;
What "long run" would that be? I used condoms 100% effectively for
over a decade, so "long run" must be longer than that.
JGH
|
|
|
|
| Re: What Makes an Architecture Bizarre? [message #98603 is a reply to message #98563] |
Sun, 21 July 2013 18:20 |
Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> writes:
> Stephen Sprunk wrote:
>> On 19-Jul-13 10:27, jmfbahciv wrote:
>>> Stephen Sprunk wrote:
>>>> On 16-Jul-13 07:21, jmfbahciv wrote:
>>>> > Buffet is nuts.
>>>>
>>>> This is where we fundamentally disagree. He is quite possibly the
>>>> savviest investor of our era, which requires an understanding of
>>>> economics and finance that is undoubtedly better than ours. So,
>>>> when he publicly takes a position on something (which is rare) that
>>>> is against his own self-interest (even rarer), that is worth paying
>>>> attention to.
>>>
>>> I did pay attention; he's nuts.
>>
>> Would that I had his particular affliction, because it seems to be quite
>> lucrative.
>
> He can afford to say silly things like that.
>
>>
>>>> > You are again lumpiing unearned income with earned income.
>>>>
>>>> Whether income is "earned" or "unearned" is often a matter of how
>>>> you do the accounting--and the current tax code provides enormous
>>>> incentive to classify as much as possible as "unearned" to get a
>>>> lower tax rate.
>>>>
>>>> I fundamentally disagree with the notion that unearned income
>>>> should be taxed at a lower rate than earned income. If anything,
>>>> it should be taxed at a _higher_ rate, but for now I'd settle for
>>>> the same rate.
>>>
>>> It is going to be the same rate as of this year.
>>
>> Really? I can't believe a change that significant made it through
>> Congress at all, much less without the media mentioning it once.
>
> Congress passed new tax laws on December 31, 2012. It affected
> 2012 and later years' taxes. It took the IRS two months to get
> the instructions and forms for 2012 straightened out becuase of
> the changes in that law for 2012. It took them until the end
> of March, 2013 to get the estimated tax forms and instructions
> out becuase of the changes in that law. qualified dividends
> tax break goes away is the big one affecting me (that I know
> about--I'm expecting more surprises when I have to do the
> real forms).
>
>>
>>> I strongly disagree with you on this point.
>>
>> It's a free country; you have the right to be wrong.
>
> ROTFL. So do you.
>
>>
>>> My taxes are going to double beause the rates for unearned income
>>> have doubled.
>>
>> Cite?
>
> Qualified dividends. I'll be paying 20% instead of the 10%. I
> haven't gone through the "new" stuff for capital gains.
Since you did not look at the Wikipedia article, as I so bravely
predicted, here it is:
2003–2007 2008–2012 2013 +
Tax Rate Ord Div Qual Div Ord Div Qual Div Ord Div Qual Div
10% 10% 5% 10% 0% 10% 0%
15% 15% 5% 15% 0% 15% 0%
25% 25% 15% 25% 15% 25% 15%
28% 28% 15% 28% 15% 28% 15%
33% 33% 15% 33% 15% 33% 15%
35% 35% 15% 35% 15% 35% 15%
39.6% N/A N/A N/A N/A 39.6% 20%
Look at the year headings, you want to compare 2008-2012 to 2013+.
Then look at the Qual Div column. (That's qualified dividends.)
Now notice that only one bracket has gone up, a new bracket for
very high earners and their increase is from 15% to 20%.
You can only be paying the 20% rate if you are in the 39.6% tax
bracket. We all know you are not in that bracket.
So, the bottom line is that your tax rate has not changed one iota.
Now, show us some personal integrity and post here this exact sentence:
"Thank you President Obama."
--
Dan Espen
|
|
|
|
| Re: What Makes an Architecture Bizarre? [message #98604 is a reply to message #98562] |
Sun, 21 July 2013 18:22 |
Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> writes:
> Stephen Sprunk wrote:
>> On 20-Jul-13 13:24, Dan Espen wrote:
>>> Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> writes:
>>>> On 19-Jul-13 10:27, jmfbahciv wrote:
>>>> > My taxes are going to double beause the rates for unearned
>>>> > income have doubled.
>>>>
>>>> Cite?
>>>
>>> She has to be talking about dividends, but as usual...
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualified_dividend
>>>
>>> ... From 2003 to 2007, qualified dividends were taxed at 15% or 5%
>>> depending on the individual's ordinary income tax bracket, and from
>>> 2008 to 2012, the tax rate on qualified dividends was reduced to 0%
>>> for taxpayers in the 10% and 15% ordinary income tax brackets, and
>>> starting in 2013 the rates on qualified dividends are 0%, 15% and
>>> 20%. The 20% rate is for taxpayers in the 39.6% tax bracket.
>>
>> That text only made sense to me after I looked at the table below, which
>> shows that the only change in 2013 is that, for those in the reinstated
>> 39.6% bracket for ordinary income, the tax rate for qualified dividends
>> goes from 15% to 20%, which is hardly "doubled".
>
> Sigh! Now look at the first line of the Table on the other
> page. Note the 10%.
The 10% number is a tax bracket and an ordinary dividend rate.
NEVER a qualified dividend rate.
--
Dan Espen
|
|
|
|
| Re: What Makes an Tax System Bizarre? [message #98605 is a reply to message #98599] |
Sun, 21 July 2013 18:24 |
Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> writes:
> On 21-Jul-13 09:36, jmfbahciv wrote:
>> Stephen Sprunk wrote:
>>> On 20-Jul-13 13:24, Dan Espen wrote:
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualified_dividend
>>>>
>>>> ... From 2003 to 2007, qualified dividends were taxed at 15% or
>>>> 5% depending on the individual's ordinary income tax bracket, and
>>>> from 2008 to 2012, the tax rate on qualified dividends was
>>>> reduced to 0% for taxpayers in the 10% and 15% ordinary income
>>>> tax brackets, and starting in 2013 the rates on qualified
>>>> dividends are 0%, 15% and 20%. The 20% rate is for taxpayers in
>>>> the 39.6% tax bracket.
>>>
>>> That text only made sense to me after I looked at the table below,
>>> which shows that the only change in 2013 is that, for those in the
>>> reinstated 39.6% bracket for ordinary income, the tax rate for
>>> qualified dividends goes from 15% to 20%, which is hardly
>>> "doubled".
>>
>> Sigh! Now look at the first line of the Table on the other page.
>> Note the 10%.
>
> What table on what other page?
Look at the link above.
Someone is having trouble reading charts.
--
Dan Espen
|
|
|
|
| Re: What Makes an Architecture Bizarre? [message #98606 is a reply to message #98533] |
Sun, 21 July 2013 18:38 |
harry
Messages: 143
Registered: May 2013
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
"greymausg" <maus@mail.com> wrote in message
news:slrnkun4t9.3r5.maus@gmaus.org...
> On 2013-07-20, harry <hsf@nospam.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> "greymausg" <maus@mail.com> wrote in message
>> news:slrnkul983.3ss.maus@gmaus.org...
>>> On 2013-07-20, Peter Flass <Peter_Flass@Yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> On 7/19/2013 11:09 PM, 127 wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Most of them never will move to the 3rd world. It's just not possible
>>>> > for the absolute vast bulk of the service sector that is where most of
>>>> > the jobs are now.
>>>>
>>>> So we buy all our stuff from China and get jobs sweeping each others'
>>>> offices?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Dean Swift proposed a society where everyone lived by taking in others
>>> washing, we are getting close to that here now.
>>
>> No, you are doing much more than that, particularly
>> with education, medical services, roads and the like.
>>
>
> Which are basically taking in others washing,
No.
i.e, service
> industries.
Service industries like the police, medical services, infrastructure
are about a lot more than taking in other's washing.
|
|
|
|
| Re: What Makes a Tax System Bizarre? [message #98607 is a reply to message #98555] |
Sun, 21 July 2013 18:41 |
Rod Speed
Messages: 3507
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
"jmfbahciv" <See.above@aol.com> wrote in message
news:PM0004E205D317F77A@aca36f6b.ipt.aol.com...
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>> On 20 Jul 13 14:45:12 -0800
>> "Charlie Gibbs" <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> In article <PM0004E1F0DA63F228@aca21a5f.ipt.aol.com>, See.above@aol.com
>>
>>>> > Nope, because few kids are interested in programming.
>>>>
>>>> Programming is like knowing how to drive. It's whre you
>>>> are coming from and where you are going which is the interesting
>>>> part. If today's kids never see what's involved with real
>>>> programming, they' aren't going to know that it exists.
>>>
>>> And they don't care. All they want is a chauffeur to take them
>>> where they want to go.
>>
>> Even the ones that do make it into programming tend to get caught
>> by "design patterns" and "class libraries" which gets them as far as
>> route
>> planning without learning to drive.
>>
>
> Then the computer biz had better start to figure out how to
> capture the interest of those who like to tinker and fix things.
Nope, its always managed to do that fine.
|
|
|
|
| Re: What Makes a Tax System Bizarre? [message #98609 is a reply to message #98557] |
Sun, 21 July 2013 18:45 |
Rod Speed
Messages: 3507
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
"jmfbahciv" <See.above@aol.com> wrote in message
news:PM0004E205E4E362CB@aca36f6b.ipt.aol.com...
> Stephen Sprunk wrote:
>> On 20-Jul-13 12:07, Andrew Swallow wrote:
>>> On 20/07/2013 14:45, jmfbahciv wrote: {snip}
>>>> It's the absence of training which is the big problem. Instead the
>>>> rabids want to control who fucks and when they fuck and how many
>>>> kids they are to produce.
>>>
>>> They want to do the fun bits. Fun for the person giving the orders
>>> that is. So they are not interested in doing the work part of the
>>> teaching.
>>
>> ... nor do they accept any responsibility for the predictable results of
>> what they order others to teach (or not teach).
>
> Well, here is where some of that illogic comes in. Those predictable
> results "prove" that they are right and use the stats as a feedback
> mechanism to push their idiocies harder. They are winning.
Like hell they are with kids fucking when they want to.
> The nastiest always do win.
Bullshit.
|
|
|
|
| Re: What Makes an Architecture Bizarre? [message #98611 is a reply to message #98559] |
Sun, 21 July 2013 18:52 |
Rod Speed
Messages: 3507
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
"jmfbahciv" <See.above@aol.com> wrote in message
news:PM0004E20662431A5F@aca36f6b.ipt.aol.com...
> Stephen Sprunk wrote:
>> On 20-Jul-13 08:46, jmfbahciv wrote:
>>> Stephen Sprunk wrote:
>>>> On 19-Jul-13 10:27, jmfbahciv wrote:
>>>> > Stephen Sprunk wrote:
>>>> >> Not necessarily; you can sock away a lot of money in 401k/403b
>>>> >> and IRA accounts. SS benefits are generally pitiful, though.
>>>> >
>>>> > But the amount you can extract each year without paying taxes is
>>>> > small. You can't even extract the interest/dividends the fund
>>>> > pays.
>>>>
>>>> Right; above ~$20k in "earned" income, including 401k/403b and IRA
>>>> distributions, you're going to be paying income taxes. I don't
>>>> recall if those distributions are also subject to FICA taxes.
>>>
>>> So far they're not but somebody in this thread suggested it. I
>>> object to that one too.
>>
>> I don't object to it, as long as the rich have to pay the same taxes.
>>
>>>> The rich, in contrast, get _their_ retirement* savings taxed at the
>>>> much lower rates for "unearned" income.
>>>
>>> So what? They've already paid taxes on the earned income which
>>> bought the stocks, bonds and bills which produce unearned income.
>>
>> In most cases, they inherited their wealth and sat on their asses for
>> their entire life, watching the unearned income compound itself--at a
>> far lower tax rate than people who actually created that wealth.
> If they use the money to promote more industry,
They hardly ever do.
> the money is not idle.
And when they buy artwork etc it is, particularly
when it’s the stuff produced by those long dead.
> The people who create wealth are not those
> people who clip coupons for a living.
And it is hardly ever those who inherited their wealth either.
> The ones who clip doupons are the ones who fund the
> businesses which will expand into more kinds of businesses.
Its much more often the ones that choose to participate in IPOs that do
that.
|
|
|
|
| Re: What Makes a Tax System Bizarre? [message #98612 is a reply to message #98558] |
Sun, 21 July 2013 18:56 |
Rod Speed
Messages: 3507
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
"jmfbahciv" <See.above@aol.com> wrote in message
news:PM0004E20600F3E668@aca36f6b.ipt.aol.com...
> Stephen Sprunk wrote:
>> On 20-Jul-13 08:45, jmfbahciv wrote:
>>> Stephen Sprunk wrote:
>>>> On 18-Jul-13 09:31, jmfbahciv wrote:
>>>> > The males sure don't [use condoms]. There's myths out there
>>>> > which say that using condoms doesn't give full satisfaction.
>>>>
>>>> It ain't a myth. I assume you're female?
>>>
>>> Yup.
>>
>> You are unqualified to comment on that specific matter.
>
> I did say "myth". ;-)
>
>>
>>> Do female condoms also not give the same sensations?
>>
>> I don't know; I've never used one or even seen one, nor do I know how
>> to. I was referring to male condoms, which is what people usually mean
>> when they don't specify.
>
>
> I was just curious. I've never known anyone who used them.
>
>>
>>>> > so birth control is usually left up to the female.
>>>>
>>>> RISUG, when it finally gets approved, will be the first real option
>>>> to change that. Whether it actually does, though, remains to be
>>>> seen, especially now that so many states have banned telling kids
>>>> the truth about birth control (and STDs).
>>>
>>> It's the absence of training which is the big problem.
>>
>> Not entirely; even back in the brief period when truthful sex ed was not
>> just allowed but actually mandatory, there was still some level of teen
>> pregnancy because many teens simply didn't have access to (or couldn't
>> afford) it, even if they knew about it and wanted it.
>
> The training reference had to do with the action, not the printed
> instructions.
>
>
>>
>>> Instead the rabids want to control who fucks and when they fuck
>>> and how many kids they are to produce.
>>
>> You imply you don't agree with the neocons out one side of your mouth,
>
> I never have.
>
>> but you spout their propaganda out the other side.
>
> No. I'm against spending more than what is taken in. I'm against
> governments telling everyone what to do from cradle to grave.
> I'm against politicians telling me how to spend my money or
> taking my money instead of telling me how to spend it. The
> neocons around here think they have a right to spend my money
> and have access to all my assets. That's communism.
Nope, taxation. Have fun proposing how else to raise what
the voters have decided they want government to do.
> I believe that each individual should support him/herself, make
> his/her own decisions, and live with the consequences of those
> actions.
But chose to use the government services that were paid
for by taxation, most obviously with your school education
and use of librarys instead of buying all those books yourself.
> Now if that's neocon, then rabid Right are called the wrong name.
|
|
|
|
| Re: What Makes an Architecture Bizarre? [message #98613 is a reply to message #98571] |
Sun, 21 July 2013 19:05 |
Rod Speed
Messages: 3507
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
"jmfbahciv" <See.above@aol.com> wrote in message
news:PM0004E20679355DE4@aca36f6b.ipt.aol.com...
> Morten Reistad wrote:
>> In article <PM0004E1CA0DE6058B@ac81348a.ipt.aol.com>,
>> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>> Walter Banks wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> jmfbahciv wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > Anytime somebody starts to demand that unearned income be taxed at the
>>>> > same level as the high income bracket, or higher as some suggestions
>>>> > here implied, I get very, very worried becuase these people are
>>>> > intelligent and have spent a lifetime doing analytical thinking.
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> Why shouldn't unearned income be taxed as income?
>>>
>>> Among other things, it's already been taxed at least twice
>>> at the higher rates of earned income.
>>
>> You keep focusing on the individual tax rates.
> Because that's the "solutions" being presented for "getting
> the rich". All of those suggestions aimed at getting more
> money for the government out of the top 1% bracket will never
> affect the 1% but will be implemented for the middle class.
That is a bare faced lie with the proposal to increase the tax
rate for those earning over a particular income level that few
of the middle class get.
> That's how Congress works.
Another bare faced Limbaugh lie mindlessly respouted.
>> These are
>> only a minor part of the taxes for the 1%. They keep their
>> wealth in corporations, and take out a pretty high part of
>> their consomption through corporate channels, as expenses
>> for perfectly legitimate business endeavours. Like yacht
>> races, formula 1 events etc.
>>
>> These corporations are localised in states with decent
>> business climates. Like Delaware, Nevada, Ireland, Cyprus etc.
>> This is not "just" about the tax rate, it is about the
>> whole business climate. Different corporations go for
>> different jurisdictions.
>>
>>>> Earned income is limited to what can be earned in 2000
>>>> hours of labour a year, unearned income is when income
>>>> goes exponential. (Losses in unearned income are linear
>>>> and earnings are a power function) there is a lot of incentive
>>>> to make a living that way.
>>>
>>> I don't understand what you mean. Unearned income, IME,
>>> is dividends from owning stock shares and interest from
>>> bank accounts and owning bonds (including t-bills, etc.).
>>
>> The really rich will never take out a wage/salary; or
>> only do so as a diversion for the taxman. The real bills
>> are invoiced, from some company.
> I understand that. that's why Buffet's tax rate is lower
> than his secretary's. These people have been arguing
> with me that Busffet is right and I'm wrong.
No they have not.
> Buffet does everything he can to avoid paying taxes;
No he does not.
> he's supposed to. But making that
> statement was either irresponsible or nuts.
Its neither. Just accurate.
> I don't think he's irresponsible becuase
> his stock price would plummet.
Even sillier. His stock price has nothing to
do with what he says about political issues.
>>> If you want to start a philosophical discussion about
>>> why unearned income tax rates should be less than earned
>>> income tax rates, I'd be happy to participate.
>>>
>>> The current tax rates are trying to herd people to save
>>> more money via stocks, bonds, and government paper.
>>> Do you really want to stop that?
>>
>> There is also a quite intense level of competition
>> between jurisdictions when it comes to corporate tax
>> rates. The EU are converging on ca 20%, with even
>> Sweden at 22% in the latest budget.
> Is 20% a good number?
That’s very arguable.
The big problem with a rate that low is that it encourages
those who can do that to make it appear that what income
they do have is corporate income and not personal income,
particularly in places where the highest marginal personal
income tax rates are much higher than that like in the EU.
> I don't know enough about business/economics to judge.
There is no magical 'good' number.
|
|
|
|
| Re: What Makes a Tax System Bizarre? [message #98619 is a reply to message #98564] |
Sun, 21 July 2013 19:07 |
Rod Speed
Messages: 3507
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
"jmfbahciv" <See.above@aol.com> wrote in message
news:PM0004E2061D4C63B8@aca36f6b.ipt.aol.com...
> Rod Speed wrote:
>> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote
>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote
>>>> > Patrick Scheible wrote
>>>> >> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote
>>
>>>> >>> There is "free" and then there is using it. For the
>>>> >>> pill you have to remember to take it every day at the
>>>> >>> same time; it's effectiveness (used to be) 95% or so.
>>>> >>> That's all based on the little fact that there are no
>>>> >>> irregular menstration prolbems. You have to pay tons of
>>>> >>> money to get and use the pill. Condoms require
>>>> >>> cooperation from the male, which is not common,
>>>> >>> although the AIDS thing may have helped there.
>>
>>>> >> There's Norplant and similar hormone-based birth
>>>> >> control that only requires a shot quarterly or yearly.
>>
>>>> > I'll bet the cost is equivalent to taking the pill.
>>
>>>> You've just lost that bet. There's a reason its used in the 3rd world.
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norplant#Use_in_the_developing_ world
>>
>>> I thought we were talking about US females.
>>
>> Yes, but that 3rd world result proves that it is much cheaper than the
>> pill.
> The reason other countries acan buy cheap is because the USians have to
> pay
> high prices.
That is another bare faced lie with stuff like that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Members
Search
Help
Register
Login
Home
