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Re: What Makes a Tax System Bizarre? [message #97102 is a reply to message #97006] Wed, 17 July 2013 15:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Rod Speed is currently offline  Rod Speed
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jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote
> Walter Banks wrote

>> Walter Bushell wrote


>>> It's not a Ponzi scheme it's a tontine. But is really a welfare

>>> program. The real problem is that if people did save for retirement,

>>> it would crash the economy and lead to a concentration of wealth in

>>> the elderly, if the economy could survive the saving.


>> Is there some reason that SS was not fully funded from contributions?


> Yes. Over the years, the program has morphed

> from a retirement program to a welfare program.


It always was a welfare program. It was never
intended to be the only income in retirement,
it was only ever meant to be a social safetynet.

> There are many ways for working people to receive SS moneies.


Nothing else is even possible, and they paid money into the scheme anyway.
Re: What Makes a Tax System Bizarre? [message #97103 is a reply to message #97005] Wed, 17 July 2013 15:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Rod Speed is currently offline  Rod Speed
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"jmfbahciv" <See.above@aol.com> wrote in message
news:PM0004E1B467AF4887@ac812019.ipt.aol.com...
> Walter Banks wrote:

>>

>>

>> jmfbahciv wrote:

>>

>>> John Levine wrote:

>>>> >The majority of the person under 50 I know don't believe SS will be

>>>> >there for them. Perhaps they will make SS means tested first and then

>>>> >with many people figuring they won't get it, gradually drop the

>>>> >benefits. Some of the brightest minds are working on the problem of

>>>> >SS.

>>>>

>>>> That's really sad, and tells us how successful the right wing

>>>> disinformation machine is.

>>>

>>> Are you kidding? When I was 25, I didn't expect to collect SS. It was

>>> having trouble that far back.

>>>

>>>>

>>>> The reality is that the gap between SS expenditure and SS revenue is

>>>> not large. If we took the income cap off the SS tax to make it less

>>>> regressive, that would be enough to fund SS forever. Even with no

>>>> changes, it will be decades before there's any shortfall at all.

>>>

>>> And people won't be able to collect until they're 85.

>>>

>>>>

>>>> Medicare is a financial black hole, but it's the same black hole as

>>>> the whole US medical non-system, and Medicare has much lower overhead

>>>> than any private insurance company.

>>>>

>>>

>>> Wait until after next year. The black hole will implode.

>>

>> I would be willing to take a small wager that it will not as soon

>> as the accounting is in for costs related to the currently

>> un-insured being covered.

>

> There will be more uninsured when employers drop the benefit (it's

> still a benefit, not a right).


Even sillier. Its just another bare faced Limbaugh lie mindlessly respewed.
Re: What Makes an Architecture Bizarre? [message #97104 is a reply to message #97011] Wed, 17 July 2013 15:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Rod Speed is currently offline  Rod Speed
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Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> wrote
> jmfbahciv wrote


>> Anytime somebody starts to demand that unearned income be taxed

>> at the same level as the high income bracket, or higher as some

>> suggestions here implied, I get very, very worried becuase these people

>> are intelligent and have spent a lifetime doing analytical thinking.


> Why shouldn't unearned income be taxed as income?


> Earned income is limited to what can be

> earned in 2000 hours of labour a year,


No.

> unearned income is when income goes exponential.


No.

> (Losses in unearned income are linear

> and earnings are a power function)


No.

> there is a lot of incentive to make a living that way.


There are real disincentives too, like the fact that
its nothing like are reliable as 'earned' income.
Re: What Makes a Tax System Bizarre? [message #97105 is a reply to message #97019] Wed, 17 July 2013 16:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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"Stephen Sprunk" <stephen@sprunk.org> wrote in message
news:ks6ckt$aqf$1@dont-email.me...
> On 16-Jul-13 13:39, 127 wrote:

>> "Stephen Sprunk" <stephen@sprunk.org> wrote in message

>> news:ks3k9m$at6$1@dont-email.me...

>>> On 16-Jul-13 08:50, Andrew Swallow wrote:

>>>> On 16/07/2013 13:49, Peter Flass wrote:

>>>> > I used to listen to the women at work talk about how much

>>>> > child-care cost. For a middle-income woman it was marginally

>>>> > worthwhile to work. For someone with lower income, they'd

>>>> > basically be working for nothing until the kids go in school,

>>>> > and then they'd still have to do something about after school.

>>>>

>>>> Yes. The cost of a woman is frequently equal to the cost of a

>>>> woman. For a woman with young children to work per pay has to be

>>>> more than (the nannies wages + tax + expenses such as a bed

>>>> room).

>>>

>>> Don't forget that working means she also loses thousands of dollars

>>> per month in welfare benefits, greatly increasing the income she

>>> needs just to break even. Most young women don't have the

>>> education or experience to get jobs that pay enough to get over

>>> that threshold, so they stay home with their kids instead.

>>

>> Most young women do in fact work, even when they have kids.

>

> Editing glitch; the above should read "most young single mothers".


OK, but those are basically the ones who get pregnant while they
are still in school, let alone in higher education, so it is hardly very
surprising that the jobs they can get don’t pay very well at all.

>>> A friend of mine recently had a kid, and the day care prices she

>>> was finding were ~$1k/mo for an infant. How is a single mother

>>> working a minimum-wage job (making less than $1k/mo after taxes)

>>> supposed to pay for that--on top of the housing, food, health care,

>>> diapers, etc.?

>>

>> Most of them aren't single mothers.

>

> Look at the stats; single mothers are now the norm,


Only in a technical sense of not bothering to get married
before having the first child. Not in a practical sense of
there being no money coming in from the father of the child.

> for a variety of reasons.


Mostly because many don’t bother with marriage anymore,
particularly with those who do have the first kid while still in school.

>>> If neo-cons really want to stop abortions, they need to change the

>>> depressing economics of being a single mother--or agree to provide

>>> young, low-income women with free birth control, which is far

>>> cheaper for the govt than the alternative anyway.

>>

>> The problem is that many of the single mothers choose to have the

>> kids and are essentially volunteering for welfare, so free birth

>> control would make no difference with them.

>

> There's one serious problem with your theory: 1.5 million women per year

> choose abortion. That shows they _don't_ want to have a kid, despite

> the supposedly wonderful life of a welfare queen.


I never said anything about any wonderful life. They just decide
that being a single mother on welfare is better than the worst of
the unskilled work. Those that choose to have an abortion are
clearly those who do not volunteer for welfare, but clearly when
there are so many single mothers on welfare, plenty do choose
that instead of an abortion.

> So why did they get pregnant in the first place?


Because they like to fuck.

> Because birth control is simply too expensive

> for someone without health insurance.


Condoms don’t cost much. Even birth control
costs a lot less than cigarettes or coffee.

> S

>

> --

> Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein

> CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the

> K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking
Re: What Makes an Unemployment Myth Bizarre? [message #97151 is a reply to message #97088] Wed, 17 July 2013 16:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Stephen Sprunk is currently offline  Stephen Sprunk
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On 17-Jul-13 12:46, John Levine wrote:
>> The question I have for you, though, is why those laid-off workers

>> don't take one of the millions of open jobs? Because they don't

>> have the _right_ skills.

>

> This is the structural argument for unemployment. While there may

> have been times and places when it was true, it is most certainly

> not true now.


IMHO, it's the explanation that best matches what I've been seeing ever
since the tech bubble burst; the other theories I hear/read just don't
seem to fit as well.

> If it were true, in some skill areas you'd see tight markets with

> employers bidding up salaries, and in other areas you wouldn't. Look

> around and tell me where you see those salaries bid up.


That didn't happen during the tech bubble; instead of salaries going up,
many companies hired unqualified people just to fill chairs, which kept
salaries stable or even forced them _down_. So, I'm not putting much
faith in that argument.

> Other than in a few odd places like the North Dakota oil patch,

> which is a geographic issue rather than a skills issue, and the

> bogus non-market for overpaid CEOs, the job market stinks across the

> board and nobody is offering higher wages than they did a few years

> ago.


I get calls from desperate headhunters every week. They're offering
good money for good jobs, but ones I'm overqualified for and/or am not
interested in. I'm quite happy where I am anyway.

What bothers me is that everyone is getting the same calls--and turning
them down for the same reasons. Ten years ago, I would have taken any
of these jobs in a heartbeat. Five years ago, I would have at least
sent a résumé. Today? I'm just not interested. The problem is that I
don't get any calls for a _better_ job, which means people below me
aren't getting a call for _my_ job, etc. We're all locked in place.

> In reality, our problem is lack of demand. Employers aren't

> offering jobs at living wages, because they don't see the demand to

> sell what more employees would produce.


Well, unskilled workers face a real problem because the market value of
their work is below minimum wage (and certainly below a living wage) due
to competition from cheaper unskilled workers overseas. That doesn't
explain the situation with skilled work, though, where wages _are_ good
and there's simply nobody qualified available.

S

--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking
Re: What Makes an Architecture Bizarre? [message #97153 is a reply to message #96999] Wed, 17 July 2013 17:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
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On 7/17/2013 9:16 AM, jmfbahciv wrote:
>

> Why is profit such a swear word?

>


Everyone likes to see a company produce something useful that people
want to buy, sell a lot of them, and make a fair profit. Most of those
things are not part of current business practices. They're all weasels
these days. They fire people and move stuff overseas, play games to
avoid paying taxes, try to cheat everyone in sight, and usually don't do
anything useful in the first place.

--
Pete
Re: What Makes a Tax System Bizarre? [message #97154 is a reply to message #97015] Wed, 17 July 2013 17:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
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On 7/17/2013 10:23 AM, Stephen Sprunk wrote:
> On 16-Jul-13 14:01, Dan Espen wrote:

>> Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> writes:

>>> Ditto for many other industries. The tech industry in particular

>>> has been having problems for decades, hence the H-1B visa program.

>>> Even that can only provide a few hundred thousand skilled workers

>>> per year, though, and that is but a drop in the bucket compared to

>>> the demand that our pitiful educational system is leaving

>>> completely unmet.

>>

>> Every off shore worker I've seen hired ...

>

> What I said above was about US-based workers; offshoring is another

> matter entirely.

>

>> was as a result of a native worker being fired, and not fired for

>> cause.

>

> "Fired" means terminated for cause. What you're referring to are

> layoffs, which is when jobs are eliminated.

>


A layoff is supposedly a temporary situation, and the workers are
expected to be recalled when business picks up.


--
Pete
Re: What Makes a Tax System Bizarre? [message #97156 is a reply to message #97019] Wed, 17 July 2013 17:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
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On 7/17/2013 11:24 AM, Stephen Sprunk wrote:
>

> There's one serious problem with your theory: 1.5 million women per year

> choose abortion. That shows they _don't_ want to have a kid, despite

> the supposedly wonderful life of a welfare queen. So why did they get

> pregnant in the first place? Because birth control is simply too

> expensive for someone without health insurance.

>


Abstinence is free.


--
Pete
Re: What Makes an Architecture Bizarre? [message #97157 is a reply to message #97021] Wed, 17 July 2013 17:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
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On 7/17/2013 11:35 AM, Stephen Sprunk wrote:
> On 16-Jul-13 06:55, Peter Flass wrote:

>> On 7/15/2013 7:57 AM, Walter Banks wrote:

>>> Tax and government polies could easily change wealth distribution

>>> significantly with changes in those area's.

>>>

>>> The latter may very well make Obamacare ineffective and

>>> certainly inefficient compared to many other countries but

>>> it will make many companies very rich.

>>

>> I just read an interesting analogy. Most people have two good kidneys

>> and really only need one. while some people have kidney problems that

>> harm their quality of life and significantly shorten their lifespans.

>> Maybe the government needs a policy to redistribute kidneys from the

>> healthy people to the sick?

>

> That analogy fails on so many levels, I don't even know where to start.

>

> Also, you may not be aware, but the govt _already_ runs programs to

> redistribute kidneys (and other organs) from people who no longer need them.

>

> S

>


But the donation is voluntary.

--
Pete
Re: What Makes an Architecture Bizarre? [message #97158 is a reply to message #97086] Wed, 17 July 2013 17:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
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On 7/17/2013 1:18 PM, Stephen Sprunk wrote:
>

> The Affordable Care Act as passed and signed into law _reduced_ the

> federal deficit. Even its staunchest opponents--the very ones whose

> propaganda you're parroting below--have admitted that.


Was estimated to reduce the federal deficit. We'll see.


--
Pete
Re: What Makes an Architecture Bizarre? [message #97159 is a reply to message #97003] Wed, 17 July 2013 17:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andrew Swallow is currently offline  Andrew Swallow
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On 17/07/2013 14:17, jmfbahciv wrote:
{snip}

> I'm trying to think about the consequences when governments destroy

> this training infrastructure. The USSR would have lost that knowledge

> with the imposition of Communism. It seems like the royalty in Europe

> are being taxed out of business but I'm not sure about that. The

> training can't be started at college level; it has to be a mindset

> which is learned when very young.


The USSR never had that mind set. It imported its business class from
Britain and Germany. Its mind set was that of a peasant who worked on
the aristocrat's land and paid rent. The Communists tried running
factories as aristocratic estates. This shows why successful medieval
towns were run by the guilds rather than aristocrats.

Andrew Swallow
Re: What Makes an Architecture Bizarre? [message #97160 is a reply to message #97014] Wed, 17 July 2013 17:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andrew Swallow is currently offline  Andrew Swallow
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On 17/07/2013 15:20, Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote:
>

> Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> writes:

>> Why shouldn't unearned income be taxed as income?

>>

>> Earned income is limited to what can be earned in 2000

>> hours of labour a year, unearned income is when income

>> goes exponential. (Losses in unearned income are linear

>> and earnings are a power function) there is a lot of incentive

>> to make a living that way.

>

> there was some articles on how hedge funds lobbied congress to get their

> income reclassified to unearned ... it is bizarre the difference in

> rates between earned/unearned ... but also opportunities for graft &

> corruption about the things that can get reclassified as unearned (as

> periodically noted the whole issue of graft&corruption around the tax code

> is significant factor in congress being considered the most corrupt

> institution on earth).

>

> slightly related is the article from the early 80s calling for 100%

> unearned profit tax on the US auto industries ... supposedly the import

> quotas was to reduce competition allowing us industry to significant

> raise prices and to use the big jump in profits to remake the

> industries. however they just pocketed the money and continued business

> as usual.

>

> 1990, nearly a decade later, the industry had the C4 task force

> ... looking at total remake ... they were planning on heavily leveraging

> technology for the remake so invited representatives from technology

> companies to participate. they could accurately describe the compeititon

> and what they needed to do ... but again they just continued business as

> normal.

>

> two decades later ... they are still business as usual and require

> additional gov. bailouts ... and claims are that even after the bailouts

> ... they continue business as usual. the auto industry has effectively

> been on the gov. dole for over three decades. most recently they also

> managed to skim off much of the industry retirement funds and dump the

> obligation on the federal gov (something that has been going on in a

> number of other industries)

>


Watch them drop electric cars as soon as the government handouts finish.

Andrew Swallow
Re: What Makes an Architecture Bizarre? [message #97161 is a reply to message #97153] Wed, 17 July 2013 18:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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"Peter Flass" <Peter_Flass@Yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ks70o7$7oc$1@dont-email.me...
> On 7/17/2013 9:16 AM, jmfbahciv wrote:

>>

>> Why is profit such a swear word?

>>

>

> Everyone likes to see a company produce something useful that people want

> to buy, sell a lot of them, and make a fair profit.


Not everyone does, particularly with the worst of the left/hippies.

Most of those
> things are not part of current business practices. They're all weasels

> these days. They fire people and move stuff overseas, play games to avoid

> paying taxes, try to cheat everyone in sight, and usually don't do

> anything useful in the first place.


That is not correct with all of Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Apple, Samsung,
Intel, AMD etc.
Re: What Makes a Tax System Bizarre? [message #97162 is a reply to message #96483] Tue, 16 July 2013 08:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shmuel (Seymour J.) M is currently offline  Shmuel (Seymour J.) M
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In <grp9u81bve9217lu3bv1icdl6h16d0gbov@4ax.com>, on 07/16/2013
at 07:52 AM, Ibmekon said:

> When you work you get paid by the hour


Not if you're exempt, or your employer claims that you are.

--
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Re: What Makes a Tax System Bizarre? [message #97163 is a reply to message #96438] Tue, 16 July 2013 08:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shmuel (Seymour J.) M is currently offline  Shmuel (Seymour J.) M
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In <Mq0G09.9sr@kithrup.com>, on 07/16/2013
at 03:50 AM, mrs@kithrup.com (Mike Stump) said:

> Instead, consider this, what is the gain, if you have 1 kilogram

> of gold, and next year, you have 1 kilogram of gold. Ask a

> physicist. The will invariably say 0. Now, if you ask your tax

> accountant, they will explain to you, that you have to cut off a

> portion of the gold and give it to the government.


ITYM ask *your* tax accountant. Ask mine and he'll explain that the
gain or loss has no tax ramifications unless and untill I sell or take
a writeoff.

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Re: What Makes a Tax System Bizarre? [message #97165 is a reply to message #96387] Tue, 16 July 2013 08:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shmuel (Seymour J.) M is currently offline  Shmuel (Seymour J.) M
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In <proto-FFD2D5.19573115072013@70-1-84-166.pools.spcsdns.net>, on
07/15/2013
at 07:57 PM, Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> said:

> In article <dbe8u8dnngdlj6v70mi3ugm1r4nlhprqku@4ax.com>, Ibmekon

> wrote:


>> Thanks, that gave me a much needed laugh.

>>

>> There was no disclaimer that "no lawyers were harmed or killed during

>> the making of this film" - we can only hope so.


> Why? I have a little list.


Apparently, so did the audience at Jurassic Park. Or is that just an
UL?

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Re: What Makes a Tax System Bizarre? [message #97166 is a reply to message #97156] Wed, 17 July 2013 18:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andrew Swallow is currently offline  Andrew Swallow
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On 17/07/2013 22:23, Peter Flass wrote:
> On 7/17/2013 11:24 AM, Stephen Sprunk wrote:

>>

>> There's one serious problem with your theory: 1.5 million women per year

>> choose abortion. That shows they _don't_ want to have a kid, despite

>> the supposedly wonderful life of a welfare queen. So why did they get

>> pregnant in the first place? Because birth control is simply too

>> expensive for someone without health insurance.

>>

>

> Abstinence is free.

>

>

But boring.

Andrew Swallow
Re: What Makes a Tax System Bizarre? [message #97167 is a reply to message #97023] Wed, 17 July 2013 18:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andrew Swallow is currently offline  Andrew Swallow
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On 17/07/2013 16:57, Stephen Sprunk wrote:
> On 17-Jul-13 09:44, Dan Espen wrote:

{snip}

>> But the jobs weren't eliminated, just moved.

>

> Technically, the job was eliminated, and a different job was created in

> another location. Employers use that loophole all the time.


The overseas manufacturing company is normally a different firm. Asian
companies have a very different set of owners.

Andrew Swallow
Re: What Makes an Architecture Bizarre? [message #97168 is a reply to message #97024] Wed, 17 July 2013 18:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andrew Swallow is currently offline  Andrew Swallow
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On 17/07/2013 17:13, greymausg wrote:
> On 2013-07-16, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:

>> Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote:

>>> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> writes:

>> Right. It's not a real work tax break.

>>>

>>> in other cases there are references to shoebox corporations ...

>>> corporations setting up home office ... in a tax location done by

>>> somebody that specializes in the activity ... each corporation little

>>> more than a shoebox on a wall with hundreds (or thousands) of other

>>> shoebox corporations.

>>

>> It's done all over. Instead of whinging those countries' politicians

>> should start doing their jobs.

>>

>> /BAH

>

> Wouldn't happen without the connivence of the US government.

> One of the Channel Islands was recently reported to have 30

> company directorships per head of adult population.

>


The US Government does not control the Channel Islands. Nor does it
control manufacturing out side of the USA. It can control the name on
the box the goods come in.

Andrew Swallow
Re: What Makes a Tax System Bizarre? [message #97169 is a reply to message #97166] Wed, 17 July 2013 18:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dan Espen is currently offline  Dan Espen
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Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> writes:

> On 17/07/2013 22:23, Peter Flass wrote:

>> On 7/17/2013 11:24 AM, Stephen Sprunk wrote:

>>>

>>> There's one serious problem with your theory: 1.5 million women per year

>>> choose abortion. That shows they _don't_ want to have a kid, despite

>>> the supposedly wonderful life of a welfare queen. So why did they get

>>> pregnant in the first place? Because birth control is simply too

>>> expensive for someone without health insurance.

>>

>> Abstinence is free.

>>

> But boring.


I'd say in most people, also extremely unlikely.

In some, I'd go as far as to say impossible.
There's a reason child molesters go to prison over and over.

--
Dan Espen
Re: What Makes a Tax System Bizarre? [message #97170 is a reply to message #96679] Wed, 17 July 2013 18:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shmuel (Seymour J.) M is currently offline  Shmuel (Seymour J.) M
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In <ks41pn$p4i$1@dont-email.me>, on 07/16/2013
at 01:07 PM, Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> said:

> Ditto for many other industries. The tech industry in particular has

> been having problems for decades, hence the H-1B visa program.


The Tech industry has been using the H1B visas to drive down wages;
the "shortage" is fiction.

> We have enough job openings _today_ to eliminate the unemployment

> problem overnight--if those workers had the right skills.


In some industries, the unemployed have better skills then the workers
brought in with H1B visas. The real issue is salaries, and even though
the law requires paying prevailing wages, there is no real
enforcement.

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Re: What Makes a Tax System Bizarre? [message #97171 is a reply to message #97165] Wed, 17 July 2013 18:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Walter Bushell is currently offline  Walter Bushell
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In article <51e53d8c$9$fuzhry+tra$mr2ice@news.patriot.net>,
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spamtrap@library.lspace.org.invalid>
wrote:

> In <proto-FFD2D5.19573115072013@70-1-84-166.pools.spcsdns.net>, on

> 07/15/2013

> at 07:57 PM, Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> said:

>

>> In article <dbe8u8dnngdlj6v70mi3ugm1r4nlhprqku@4ax.com>, Ibmekon

>> wrote:

>

>>> Thanks, that gave me a much needed laugh.

>>>

>>> There was no disclaimer that "no lawyers were harmed or killed during

>>> the making of this film" - we can only hope so.

>

>> Why? I have a little list.

>

> Apparently, so did the audience at Jurassic Park. Or is that just an

> UL?


"UL"?

--
Gambling with Other People's Money is the meth of the fiscal industry.
me -- in the spirit of Karl and Groucho Marx
Re: What Makes a Tax System Bizarre? [message #97172 is a reply to message #97154] Wed, 17 July 2013 18:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Stephen Sprunk is currently offline  Stephen Sprunk
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On 17-Jul-13 16:16, Peter Flass wrote:
> On 7/17/2013 10:23 AM, Stephen Sprunk wrote:

>> On 16-Jul-13 14:01, Dan Espen wrote:

>>> was as a result of a native worker being fired, and not fired

>>> for cause.

>>

>> "Fired" means terminated for cause. What you're referring to are

>> layoffs, which is when jobs are eliminated.

>

> A layoff is supposedly a temporary situation, and the workers are

> expected to be recalled when business picks up.


While technically a layoff, that's usually referred to as a "shutdown".
Calling it a "layoff" (or various euphemisms, e.g. downsizing) implies
that the job won't return; if it does, they're required to recall the
workers, but that can be easily evaded by pretending the new job is
different from the old job, e.g. by using a different title.

S

--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking
Re: What Makes a Tax System Bizarre? [message #97173 is a reply to message #97162] Wed, 17 July 2013 18:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Walter Bushell is currently offline  Walter Bushell
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In article <51e54139$12$fuzhry+tra$mr2ice@news.patriot.net>,
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spamtrap@library.lspace.org.invalid>
wrote:

> In <grp9u81bve9217lu3bv1icdl6h16d0gbov@4ax.com>, on 07/16/2013

> at 07:52 AM, Ibmekon said:

>

>> When you work you get paid by the hour

>

> Not if you're exempt, or your employer claims that you are.


I suppose that determination by the employer is challengeable.

--
Gambling with Other People's Money is the meth of the fiscal industry.
me -- in the spirit of Karl and Groucho Marx
Re: What Makes a Tax System Bizarre? [message #97174 is a reply to message #97090] Wed, 17 July 2013 18:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Walter Bushell is currently offline  Walter Bushell
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In article <ks6ldh$tbj$1@dont-email.me>,
Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> wrote:

> If all you know is COBOL or FORTRAN but all the job openings are for

> Java or Ruby, then yes.


Bah Humbug! If you can program, you can do it in any language. It may
take some time to get up to speed, but that is not a reason to import
Jai Random programmer from India to work under serf conditions. (If he
loses the job, he (or she) goes back to India a real whip over the
programmer's head.

--
Gambling with Other People's Money is the meth of the fiscal industry.
me -- in the spirit of Karl and Groucho Marx
Re: What Makes a Tax System Bizarre? [message #97175 is a reply to message #97156] Wed, 17 July 2013 18:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Stephen Sprunk is currently offline  Stephen Sprunk
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On 17-Jul-13 16:23, Peter Flass wrote:
> On 7/17/2013 11:24 AM, Stephen Sprunk wrote:

>> There's one serious problem with your theory: 1.5 million women per

>> year choose abortion. That shows they _don't_ want to have a kid,

>> despite the supposedly wonderful life of a welfare queen. So why

>> did they get pregnant in the first place? Because birth control is

>> simply too expensive for someone without health insurance.

>

> Abstinence is free.


And, in practice, it doesn't actually work.

Sadly, my state mandated the oxymoronic "abstinence-only sex education",
and within a few years our teen pregnancy rate went from the middle of
the pack to the highest in the country. Gov. Perry declared the program
a "success", which makes me wonder what his goal really was--or if he's
so stupid that he doesn't realize being #1 is a bad thing in this case.

S

--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking
Re: What Makes an Architecture Bizarre? [message #97176 is a reply to message #97024] Wed, 17 July 2013 18:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anne &amp; Lynn Wheel is currently offline  Anne &amp; Lynn Wheel
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greymausg <maus@mail.com> writes:
> Wouldn't happen without the connivence of the US government.

> One of the Channel Islands was recently reported to have 30

> company directorships per head of adult population.


long detailed discussion about as British empire was breaking up after
ww2 ... certain locals wanting to stay under british protection ... and
cooperated with the city of london setting up tax havens. major center
was the city of london but various things went on in these other
jurisdictions "Treasure Islands: Uncovering the Damage of Offshore
Banking and Tax Havens" pg71/loc1477-79:

The City’s nine thousand–odd human residents have one vote each in
municipal elections here. But businesses in the City vote too, as if
they were human, with thirty-two thousand corporate votes. 25 In effect,
Goldman Sachs, the Bank of China, Moscow Narodny Bank, and KPMG can vote
in a hugely important British election.

.... snip ...

US gov. has significant influence ... but US cooperating was in the
interest of numerous wallstreet & cooperate entities. Even various
states are now playing ... setting up financial secrecy laws so
criminals can use the jurisdiction to hide funds (the crimes are
typically happening elsewhere, but the tax haven jurisdictions are
complicit in helping hide the illegal gains).

A Small Victory in the War on Corruption; This week's G8 Summit brought
some small but crucial successes in the effort to cut down on illicit
financial flows.
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/06/21/a_small_vic tory_in_the_war_on_corruption

as i've previously mentioned there was recently huge dump of tax haven
documents
http://www.icij.org/offshore

.... appears to be forcing various govs. to take positions
publicly ... but it isn't clear that anything actually changes.
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013i.html#54 How do you feel about the fact that India has more employees than US?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013i.html#65 The Real Snowden Question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013i.html#81 What Makes a Tax System Bizarre?


then there are the "too-big-to-fail" ... also acquiring the labels
"too-big-to-prosecute" and "too-big-to-jail" ... getting passes on money
laundering for drug cartels and terrorists:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010m.html#24 Little-Noted, Prepaid Rules Would Cover Non-Banks As Wells As Banks
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011.html#84 The Imaginot Line
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011f.html#52 Are Americans serious about dealing with money laundering and the drug cartels?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011f.html#55 Are Americans serious about dealing with money laundering and the drug cartels?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011h.html#41 Delinquent Homeowners to Get Mortgage Aid from Government
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011k.html#22 Slouching toward Weimar
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011k.html#44 New Scandal at DoJ as Illegal Guitars End Up In Hands of Mexican Drug Lords
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011k.html#53 50th anniversary of BASIC, COBOL?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011k.html#60 50th anniversary of BASIC, COBOL?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011m.html#14 computer bootlaces
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011n.html#49 The men who crashed the world
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011n.html#79 The men who crashed the world
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011o.html#28 Confidence in banking: the EU500 supernote, or, we're all money launderers now
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011p.html#96 Republicans Propose Bill to Treat Mexican Drug Cartels as 'Terrorist Insurgency'
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012c.html#31 US real-estate has lost $7T in value
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012e.html#35 The Dallas Fed Is Calling For The Immediate Breakup Of Large Banks
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012e.html#37 The $30 billion Social Security hack
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012f.html#88 Defense acquisitions are broken and no one cares
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012g.html#9 JPM LOSES $2 BILLION USD!
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012j.html#25 This Is The Wall Street Scandal Of All Scandals
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012k.html#37 If all of the American earned dollars hidden in off shore accounts were uncovered and taxed do you think we would be able to close the deficit gap?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012k.html#75 What's the bigger risk, retiring too soon, or too late?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012m.html#30 General Mills computer
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012p.html#24 OCC Confirms that Big Banks are Badly Managed, Lack Adequate Risk Management Controls
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012p.html#30 Search Google, 1960:s-style
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012p.html#48 Search Google, 1960:s-style
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012p.html#62 Search Google, 1960:s-style
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012p.html#64 IBM Is Changing The Terms Of Its Retirement Plan, Which Is Frustrating Some Employees
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013.html#4 HSBC's Settlement Leaves Us In A Scary Place
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013.html#34 How Bankers Help Drug Traffickers and Terrorists
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013b.html#48 How to Cut Megabanks Down to Size
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013b.html#49 Bankers Who Made Millions In Housing Boom Misled Investors: Study
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013c.html#61 How to Cut Megabanks Down to Size
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013d.html#6 Live-Blogging Senate Hearing Tomorrow, When J.P. Morgan Chase Will Be Torn a New One
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013d.html#42 What Makes an Architecture Bizarre?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013d.html#76 IBM Spent A Million Dollars Renovating And Staffing Its Former CEO's Office
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013d.html#94 What Makes an Architecture Bizarre?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013e.html#86 What Makes a thread about the European debt crisis Bizarre?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013f.html#6 What Makes an Architecture Bizarre?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013f.html#11 Secrecy for Sale: Inside the Global Offshore Money Maze
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013h.html#46 OT: "Highway Patrol" back on TV
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013h.html#55 OT: "Highway Patrol" back on TV
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013h.html#56 OT: "Highway Patrol" back on TV

--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970
Re: What Makes a Tax System Bizarre? [message #97177 is a reply to message #97174] Wed, 17 July 2013 19:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Stephen Sprunk is currently offline  Stephen Sprunk
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On 17-Jul-13 17:39, Walter Bushell wrote:
> In article <ks6ldh$tbj$1@dont-email.me>,

> Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> wrote:

>> If all you know is COBOL or FORTRAN but all the job openings are for

>> Java or Ruby, then yes.

>

> Bah Humbug! If you can program, you can do it in any language.


While it may be true you can write FORTRAN in any language, that's not
necessarily a good thing.

Knowing one programming language certainly makes it easier to learn
another, but they're still distinct skills.

> It may take some time to get up to speed,


As mentioned earlier in the thread, employers today are not willing to
invest in training employees--at least those who are free to jump ship
and go work for a competitor. Feel free to apply again when you have
the skills we need. Of course, where you are supposed to _get_ those
skills, especially if you're unemployed, is an open question.

> ... but that is not a reason to import Jai Random programmer from

> India to work under serf conditions. (If he loses the job, he (or

> she) goes back to India a real whip over the programmer's head.


OTOH, they can apply for an immigrant visa (with the help of their
sponsor's Legal dept, which helps immensely) the day they arrive, and
they get the benefits of being here--rather than waiting overseas--for
the several years it takes for the application to work its way through
the system. The only real restriction is that they can't change
employers, but all the ones I've seen were working for big companies
with good benefits and market pay, which is not exactly a bad deal.

Also, it's their choice; it's not like they're being rounded up and put
on ships to the New World against their will...

S

--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking
Re: What Makes a Tax System Bizarre? [message #97178 is a reply to message #97175] Wed, 17 July 2013 19:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Walter Bushell is currently offline  Walter Bushell
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Senior Member
In article <ks76id$c5e$1@dont-email.me>,
Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> wrote:

> On 17-Jul-13 16:23, Peter Flass wrote:

>> On 7/17/2013 11:24 AM, Stephen Sprunk wrote:

>>> There's one serious problem with your theory: 1.5 million women per

>>> year choose abortion. That shows they _don't_ want to have a kid,

>>> despite the supposedly wonderful life of a welfare queen. So why

>>> did they get pregnant in the first place? Because birth control is

>>> simply too expensive for someone without health insurance.

>>

>> Abstinence is free.

>

> And, in practice, it doesn't actually work.

>

> Sadly, my state mandated the oxymoronic "abstinence-only sex education",

> and within a few years our teen pregnancy rate went from the middle of

> the pack to the highest in the country. Gov. Perry declared the program

> a "success", which makes me wonder what his goal really was--or if he's

> so stupid that he doesn't realize being #1 is a bad thing in this case.

>

> S


Being #1 can mean urine big trouble.

--
Gambling with Other People's Money is the meth of the fiscal industry.
me -- in the spirit of Karl and Groucho Marx
Re: What Makes a Tax System Bizarre? [message #97222 is a reply to message #97105] Wed, 17 July 2013 20:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Stephen Sprunk is currently offline  Stephen Sprunk
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On 17-Jul-13 15:02, 127 wrote:
> "Stephen Sprunk" <stephen@sprunk.org> wrote in message

> news:ks6ckt$aqf$1@dont-email.me...

>> On 16-Jul-13 13:39, 127 wrote:

>>> "Stephen Sprunk" <stephen@sprunk.org> wrote in message

>>> news:ks3k9m$at6$1@dont-email.me...

>>>> Don't forget that working means she also loses thousands of

>>>> dollars per month in welfare benefits, greatly increasing the

>>>> income she needs just to break even. Most young women don't

>>>> have the education or experience to get jobs that pay enough to

>>>> get over that threshold, so they stay home with their kids

>>>> instead.

>>>

>>> Most young women do in fact work, even when they have kids.

>>

>> Editing glitch; the above should read "most young single mothers".

>

> OK, but those are basically the ones who get pregnant while they are

> still in school, let alone in higher education, so it is hardly very

> surprising that the jobs they can get don’t pay very well at all.


.... or in their late teens or early to mid-20s. They tend to come from
low-income families, usually due to having a single parent themselves,
and that means they'll probably have little income and no benefits,
which is why they weren't on birth control. Of course, once they have a
kid, they're pretty much locked into that life--and create the next
generation of single mothers. It's a vicious cycle.

>>>> A friend of mine recently had a kid, and the day care prices

>>>> she was finding were ~$1k/mo for an infant. How is a single

>>>> mother working a minimum-wage job (making less than $1k/mo

>>>> after taxes) supposed to pay for that--on top of the housing,

>>>> food, health care, diapers, etc.?

>>>

>>> Most of them aren't single mothers.

>>

>> Look at the stats; single mothers are now the norm,

>

> Only in a technical sense of not bothering to get married before

> having the first child. Not in a practical sense of there being no

> money coming in from the father of the child.


Child support does not a dual-parent household make, and depending on
the father, that income may be little to nothing. He's likely to be a
low-paid worker himself or get incarcerated for some bullshit drug
charge and therefore have no wages to garnish at all.

>> for a variety of reasons.

>

> Mostly because many don’t bother with marriage anymore, particularly

> with those who do have the first kid while still in school.


If the downward trend continues, in another decade or two the _only_
people getting married will be the gays. Most straights under 30, of
both sexes, think the entire concept is stupid and antiquated--and they
may not be wrong. It was a bronze-age solution to problems that are now
solved more effectively by other mechanisms.

>>>> If neo-cons really want to stop abortions, they need to change

>>>> the depressing economics of being a single mother--or agree to

>>>> provide young, low-income women with free birth control, which

>>>> is far cheaper for the govt than the alternative anyway.

>>>

>>> The problem is that many of the single mothers choose to have

>>> the kids and are essentially volunteering for welfare, so free

>>> birth control would make no difference with them.

>>

>> There's one serious problem with your theory: 1.5 million women per

>> year choose abortion. That shows they _don't_ want to have a kid,

>> despite the supposedly wonderful life of a welfare queen.

>

> I never said anything about any wonderful life. They just decide that

> being a single mother on welfare is better than the worst of the

> unskilled work.


.... or they've been brainwashed with moral objections to abortion, or
they simply can't afford one, or they don't have a realistic idea of how
difficult it is to be a single mom, etc.

I've known many over the years, and most of them _tried_ to work after
having a kid but quickly discovered the Welfare Trap.

>> So why did they get pregnant in the first place?

>

> Because they like to fuck.


So do most humans, but only the low-income ones tend to have unwanted
pregnancies. There's a reason for that:

>> Because birth control is simply too expensive for someone without

>> health insurance.

>

> Condoms don’t cost much.


But they're not very effective in practice, over the long run; you only
need to mess up once, and most users mess up frequently.

> Even birth control costs a lot less than cigarettes or coffee.


Look up the full cost, i.e. including exams every six months and not
just the copays after your health insurance picks up most of the tab,
then try to figure out how you're going to cover that on top of food,
housing, clothing, transportation, utilities, etc. when you're only
making minimum wage. Ain't gonna happen--and so they get pregnant.

Ironically, _after_ they have a kid, the govt is willing to give them
free birth control. But not before, when it would save the government
literally trillions of dollars.

S

--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking
Re: What Makes a Tax System Bizarre? [message #97224 is a reply to message #96597] Tue, 16 July 2013 13:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shmuel (Seymour J.) M is currently offline  Shmuel (Seymour J.) M
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In <proto-1D55E7.10074816072013@70-1-84-166.pools.spcsdns.net>, on
07/16/2013
at 10:07 AM, Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> said:

> The problem is we can't provide the best medical care for everyone

> and as more expensive and esoteric treatments are discovered the

> situation is getting worse.


Then why can other countries provide better health care at less cost?
The problem is the parasites, starting with the insurance companies.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT <http://patriot.net/~shmuel>

Unsolicited bulk E-mail subject to legal action. I reserve the
right to publicly post or ridicule any abusive E-mail. Reply to
domain Patriot dot net user shmuel+news to contact me. Do not
reply to spamtrap@library.lspace.org
Re: What Makes a Tax System Bizarre? [message #97225 is a reply to message #97222] Wed, 17 July 2013 22:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
127 is currently offline  127
Messages: 41
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Member
"Stephen Sprunk" <stephen@sprunk.org> wrote in message
news:ks7bdm$935$1@dont-email.me...
> On 17-Jul-13 15:02, 127 wrote:

>> "Stephen Sprunk" <stephen@sprunk.org> wrote in message

>> news:ks6ckt$aqf$1@dont-email.me...

>>> On 16-Jul-13 13:39, 127 wrote:

>>>> "Stephen Sprunk" <stephen@sprunk.org> wrote in message

>>>> news:ks3k9m$at6$1@dont-email.me...

>>>> > Don't forget that working means she also loses thousands of

>>>> > dollars per month in welfare benefits, greatly increasing the

>>>> > income she needs just to break even. Most young women don't

>>>> > have the education or experience to get jobs that pay enough to

>>>> > get over that threshold, so they stay home with their kids

>>>> > instead.

>>>>

>>>> Most young women do in fact work, even when they have kids.

>>>

>>> Editing glitch; the above should read "most young single mothers".

>>

>> OK, but those are basically the ones who get pregnant while they are

>> still in school, let alone in higher education, so it is hardly very

>> surprising that the jobs they can get don’t pay very well at all.

>

> ... or in their late teens or early to mid-20s. They tend to come from

> low-income families, usually due to having a single parent themselves,

> and that means they'll probably have little income and no benefits,

> which is why they weren't on birth control. Of course, once they have a

> kid, they're pretty much locked into that life--and create the next

> generation of single mothers. It's a vicious cycle.

>

>>>> > A friend of mine recently had a kid, and the day care prices

>>>> > she was finding were ~$1k/mo for an infant. How is a single

>>>> > mother working a minimum-wage job (making less than $1k/mo

>>>> > after taxes) supposed to pay for that--on top of the housing,

>>>> > food, health care, diapers, etc.?

>>>>

>>>> Most of them aren't single mothers.

>>>

>>> Look at the stats; single mothers are now the norm,

>>

>> Only in a technical sense of not bothering to get married before

>> having the first child. Not in a practical sense of there being no

>> money coming in from the father of the child.

>

> Child support does not a dual-parent household make, and depending on

> the father, that income may be little to nothing. He's likely to be a

> low-paid worker himself or get incarcerated for some bullshit drug

> charge and therefore have no wages to garnish at all.

>

>>> for a variety of reasons.

>>

>> Mostly because many don’t bother with marriage anymore, particularly

>> with those who do have the first kid while still in school.

>

> If the downward trend continues, in another decade or two the _only_

> people getting married will be the gays. Most straights under 30, of

> both sexes, think the entire concept is stupid and antiquated--and they

> may not be wrong. It was a bronze-age solution to problems that are now

> solved more effectively by other mechanisms.

>

>>>> > If neo-cons really want to stop abortions, they need to change

>>>> > the depressing economics of being a single mother--or agree to

>>>> > provide young, low-income women with free birth control, which

>>>> > is far cheaper for the govt than the alternative anyway.

>>>>

>>>> The problem is that many of the single mothers choose to have

>>>> the kids and are essentially volunteering for welfare, so free

>>>> birth control would make no difference with them.

>>>

>>> There's one serious problem with your theory: 1.5 million women per

>>> year choose abortion. That shows they _don't_ want to have a kid,

>>> despite the supposedly wonderful life of a welfare queen.

>>

>> I never said anything about any wonderful life. They just decide that

>> being a single mother on welfare is better than the worst of the

>> unskilled work.


> ... or they've been brainwashed with moral objections

> to abortion, or they simply can't afford one,


Doesn’t cost much to get an abortion using RU86 etc.

or they don't have a realistic idea of how
> difficult it is to be a single mom, etc.


Sure, but that’s just as true of those that aren't single mothers too.

> I've known many over the years, and most of them _tried_ to work after

> having a kid but quickly discovered the Welfare Trap.

>

>>> So why did they get pregnant in the first place?

>>

>> Because they like to fuck.

>

> So do most humans, but only the low-income ones tend to have unwanted

> pregnancies. There's a reason for that:


Yes, few kids that age bother with birth control until they end up pregnant.

>>> Because birth control is simply too expensive for someone without

>>> health insurance.

>>

>> Condoms don’t cost much.


> But they're not very effective in practice, over the long run; you only

> need to mess up once, and most users mess up frequently.


They aren't the only cheap contraceptive.

>> Even birth control costs a lot less than cigarettes or coffee.


> Look up the full cost, i.e. including exams every six months


You don’t need an exam every 6 months.

and not
> just the copays after your health insurance picks up most of the tab,

> then try to figure out how you're going to cover that on top of food,

> housing, clothing, transportation, utilities, etc. when you're only

> making minimum wage. Ain't gonna happen--


It does for plenty of them.

> and so they get pregnant.


They get pregnant for other reasons entirely, mostly
because they are essentially volunteering for welfare or
are too stupid to do anything to avoid getting pregnant.

> Ironically, _after_ they have a kid, the govt is willing to give them

> free birth control. But not before, when it would save the government

> literally trillions of dollars.


I doubt many of those who do end up pregnant
would bother to use it even if it was free.

The evidence that most won't is the huge numbers
that have more than just the one child when birth
control is free after the first one shows up.

> S

>

> --

> Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein

> CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the

> K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking
Re: What Makes an Architecture Bizarre? [message #97288 is a reply to message #96085] Wed, 17 July 2013 11:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Morten Reistad is currently offline  Morten Reistad
Messages: 2108
Registered: December 2011
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Senior Member
In article <51E38421.1070508@SPAM.comp-arch.net>,
Andy (Super) Glew <andy@SPAM.comp-arch.net> wrote:
> On 7/14/2013 12:45 PM, jklam wrote:

>> That doesn't work with the US income tax system because the amount you

>> pay in US income tax is not dependant on where your primary residence is.

>>

>> What matters is if you are a US citizen for tax purposes or not.]

>

> So have the income and hold the income producing property in an offshore

> company that you control.

>

> Leave the money offshore, for offshore expenses.


Indeed. The idea of incorporating offshore is what secures the
tax base. Even I have an offshore pension fund. I will be taxed
to death if I use it as a non-pensioner, but can take income from
it when I retire. And if I retire in some low-tax jurisdiction
it will be taxed at that low rate.

> Only pay US tax on it when you actually need to spend the money for

> personal purposes.


Then you either take it as wages or as dividends from the
other company. Or you pay invoices from a US company.

-- mrr
Re: What Makes a Tax System Bizarre? [message #97289 is a reply to message #95958] Wed, 17 July 2013 10:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Morten Reistad is currently offline  Morten Reistad
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Senior Member
in article <kruurf$tvh$1@dont-email.me>,
Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> wrote:
> On 14-Jul-13 14:21, John Levine wrote:

>>>> So for capital gains, would you tax the total sale price, with

>>>> no deduction for the basis?

>>>

>>> That's just silly. A capital gain (i.e. income to be taxed) is

>>> defined as the difference between the sale price and the cost

>>> basis; there is no "deduction" involved.

>>

>> Well, OK, is it the nominal cost basis or inflation adjusted cost

>> basis? If you buy something for $1000 and sell it decades later for

>> $1500, but in the meantime prices have doubled, is that a gain or a

>> loss?

>

> AFAIK, our tax code has never considered the effects of inflation on an

> asset's cost basis, nor does GAAP or IFRS.


The Brits tried, in the 1970s. Google for "Sandiland committee".

Some of the recommendations made it into the tax code very
briefly just to be reversed a year later by Mrs Thatcher.

Frankly, I am all with Mrs T on that one. We don't want to go
down that route. If inflation makes us need correction multipliers
then you establish a new baseline based on inflation. And then
inflation will attack that new baseline. There were even clear
indications that this happened during the last year of the Callaghan
government.

It is a death spiral. We don't need to go there.

Now, there are the usual 2% "technology deflation" that affects
about 60% of our goods, and the 1% "luxury inflation" that affects
the 15% or so of the consumer basket that is "luxury" oriented.

This will twist prices during long runs. A Rolls Royce will cost
a _lot_ more now than in the 1960s, well beyond normal inflation.
And a radio will sell for a _lot_ less.

>> This isn't a silly question, inflation is a large part of the

>> rationale for lower capital gains rates.

>

> If so, then why is the long-term capital gains rate the same whether

> you've held the asset for 366 days or 50 years? How is inflation

> magically so much worse between the 364th and 366th days (yet not worse

> at all between the 366th day and 100th+ year) to justify dropping the

> tax rate by up to 24.6 percentage points?


Government decrees. You don't want to understand them.

>>>> For businesses, would you tax total revenue, with no deduction

>>>> for wages or expenses?

>>>

>>> Business income is defined as the difference between revenues and

>>> expenses; again, there is no "deduction" involved.

>>

>> Well, OK. Do you do cash or accrual accounting?

>

> IIRC, cash-based accounting is mandatory if your revenues are under

> $1M/yr, and accrual-based accounting is mandatory if your revenues are

> over $10M/yr. In between, you can use either.


That is by US law. Other jurisdictions differ, sometimes a lot.

>> Do you depreciate capital assets or just expense everything when

>> it's purchased, even if it'll last for 20 years?

>

> That's dictated by whether you're using cash- or accrual-based accounting.

>

>> If a company does business in multiple jurisdictions, how do you

>> allocate the revenue and expenses?

>

> That's an interesting point that _no_ reforms I've seen proposed would

> address.

>

> Then again, when companies (e.g. GE) can make billions of dollars in

> profits per year and pay _no_ income taxes, does it really matter?


The "loophole closing" initiatives that originally started in the US,
pointing at tax havens offshore is coming back, pointing at several
(many) US states and municipalities.

-- mrr
Re: What Makes a Tax System Bizarre? [message #97334 is a reply to message #96679] Thu, 18 July 2013 05:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Ibmekon

On Tue, 16 Jul 2013 13:07:25 -0500, Stephen Sprunk
<stephen@sprunk.org> wrote:

> On 16-Jul-13 11:27, Dan Espen wrote:

>> Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> writes:

>>> On 16-Jul-13 09:27, Dan Espen wrote:

>>>> We have people out of work and no shortage of medical supplies.

>>>> Why can't we provide medical care?

>>>

>>> For the same reason the rest of the 6 million vacant jobs are

>>> going unfilled: lack of skilled workers.

>>>

>>> Why? Because our educational system is designed solely to prepare

>>> students for college, even though only ~30% of students actually

>>> graduate from college--and most of those with useless liberal-arts

>>> degrees. There is little interest, from educators or politicians,

>>> in vocational training that will actually prepare students for the

>>> workforce by providing them with marketable skills.

>>

>> Those issues are valid, but I think over-stated.

>>

>> Above, the problem was identified as expense, not lack of training.

>

> The jobs are open and waiting for qualified applicants. Hospitals and

> doctors' offices have no problem paying nurses and medical assistants,

> for instance; that will increase the amount they can bill to health

> insurance companies faster than it increases costs. They just can't

> find enough skilled people to hire!

>

> Ditto for many other industries. The tech industry in particular has

> been having problems for decades, hence the H-1B visa program. Even

> that can only provide a few hundred thousand skilled workers per year,

> though, and that is but a drop in the bucket compared to the demand that

> our pitiful educational system is leaving completely unmet.

>

> We have enough job openings _today_ to eliminate the unemployment

> problem overnight--if those workers had the right skills.

>

> S


An interesting scenario played out locally on the Shannon Inustrial
Estate in Ireland in the last decades.

An support IT company called Sykes has had a variable size workforce,
sometimes running into hundreds - and finally closed earlier this
year.

Their business plan of late was to get a multi year contract for
supporting a software product - the final one was with Sony.
They would advertise, employ and train as needed - but offering no job
security beyond that of the original contract.
So no overheads of pensions, health care etc.

Multiple human language skills were involved for multinational
support.
So this company company at one time might be claiming unfilled
vacancies for a new contract - the next day laying people off as an
existing contract expired and was not renewed.

For what its worth - I remember visiting their offices concerning IRMA
3270 emulator script language, must be 20 years ago.


Carl Goldsworthy

"Bring down inflation Uncle Ben!"

Then close your eyes and tap your heels together three times. And
think to yourself, 'There's no inflation at home'.

So Dorothy clicks her heels together three times and repeats the magic
phrase that takes her home: "There's no inflation at home...There's no
inflation at home..."
Re: What Makes a Tax System Bizarre? [message #97377 is a reply to message #97166] Thu, 18 July 2013 07:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 7/17/2013 6:04 PM, Andrew Swallow wrote:
> On 17/07/2013 22:23, Peter Flass wrote:

>> On 7/17/2013 11:24 AM, Stephen Sprunk wrote:

>>>

>>> There's one serious problem with your theory: 1.5 million women per year

>>> choose abortion. That shows they _don't_ want to have a kid, despite

>>> the supposedly wonderful life of a welfare queen. So why did they get

>>> pregnant in the first place? Because birth control is simply too

>>> expensive for someone without health insurance.

>>>

>>

>> Abstinence is free.

>>

>>

> But boring.


I have heard rumors that there are many things besides Gin Rummy that
boys and girls can do for fun that have little chance of resulting in
pregnancy.


--
Pete
Re: What Makes a Tax System Bizarre? [message #97378 is a reply to message #97172] Thu, 18 July 2013 07:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
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Senior Member
On 7/17/2013 6:31 PM, Stephen Sprunk wrote:
> On 17-Jul-13 16:16, Peter Flass wrote:

>> On 7/17/2013 10:23 AM, Stephen Sprunk wrote:

>>> On 16-Jul-13 14:01, Dan Espen wrote:

>>>> was as a result of a native worker being fired, and not fired

>>>> for cause.

>>>

>>> "Fired" means terminated for cause. What you're referring to are

>>> layoffs, which is when jobs are eliminated.

>>

>> A layoff is supposedly a temporary situation, and the workers are

>> expected to be recalled when business picks up.

>

> While technically a layoff, that's usually referred to as a "shutdown".

> Calling it a "layoff" (or various euphemisms, e.g. downsizing) implies

> that the job won't return; if it does, they're required to recall the

> workers, but that can be easily evaded by pretending the new job is

> different from the old job, e.g. by using a different title.

>


We had that in one local government recently. They wanted to get rid of
someone, so they abolished her job and then later created a new hob with
a new title but similar duties.


--
Pete
Re: What Makes a Tax System Bizarre? [message #97379 is a reply to message #97020] Thu, 18 July 2013 08:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anne &amp; Lynn Wheel is currently offline  Anne &amp; Lynn Wheel
Messages: 3156
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> writes:
> note that after Bernanke had been giving free trillions to the

> too-big-to-fail for awhile ... he came out and said that he had

> anticipated that they would turn around and loan it to mainstreet

> ... but they weren't ... they were just buying treasuries and pocketing

> the money ... and Bernanke claimed he had no way to force the

> too-big-to-fail to loan money to mainstreet ... but that didn't stop him

> from giving out the free money.


re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013j.html#0 What Makes a Tax System Bizarre?

Savers And The 'Real' $10.8 Trillion Cost Of ZIRP
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-07-17/savers-and-real-108 -trillion-cost-zirp

The good news behind the bottom 85% of close-to-retiree status Baby
Boomers that participate in the "markets" via sub $50,000 retirement
money is that at some point, the voters might actually get smart and get
mad at how much money has been siphoned from them. Consult the chart
below to see a historical relationship between total savings and amount
of interest income earned on the savings.

.... snip ...

this is separate from various industries spinning off least profitable
operations and loading them with all the retirement obligations ... so
the top 1% can skim off the rest. this especially shows up in the
various private equitity deals ... where private equitity loads the
spin-offs with all sorts of debt ... they can even "flip" a company for
less than they paid ... and still walk away with enormous profits
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013i.html#54 How do you feel about the fact that India has more employees than US?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013i.html#81 What Makes a Tax System Bizarre?

also one of the issues in race to the bottom with minimum wages ... the
line about making the workers more competitive on the global market is
obfuscation and misdirection ... the implied message of more competitive
pay scale ... is that the companies are more competitive ... which is
invalidated when the companies are making the same amount of revenue (if
lower worker pay was part of making the company more competitive, it
should translate into overall corporate price competitive) ... however
numbers show that the savings paid to the bottom tier is winding up in
the pockets of the 1% ... part of the accelerating inequality
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013j.html#2 What Makes a Tax System Bizarre?

--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970
Re: What Makes an Architecture Bizarre? [message #97380 is a reply to message #97014] Thu, 18 July 2013 09:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Walter Banks is currently offline  Walter Banks
Messages: 1000
Registered: July 2012
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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
&nbsp;
<p>Anne &amp; Lynn Wheeler wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>Walter Banks &lt;walter@bytecraft.com> writes:
<br>> The US big three auto companies no longer have the
<br>> clout they once had to ask for government protection.
<br>> Toyota and Honda and other offshore companies
<br>> have had a long presence in North America and have
<br>> moved from simple assembly plants to comprehensive
<br>> organizations. The projectionist policies that you
<br>> mentioned in the 1980's is responsible for these companies
<br>> from doing the unexpected by moving here and bringing
<br>> with them engineering, manufacturing and QA
<br>> technologies. The big three at the time took a long time
<br>> to realize that the real competition was not offshore
<br>> manufactured products but offshore engineering and
<br>> management styles operating here,
<p>. . .
<p>the foreign competition, when faced with import quotas realized that
<br>they could sell that many high end cars (rather than the low-end cars
<br>that they had been selling) ... with much higher margins. To adapt,
they
<br>completely redid the auto industry process cutting the development
<br>process to 3-4yrs (from idea to cars rolling off the lines). The import
<br>quotas significantly reduced the competition allowing for much greater
<br>profit ... however the foreign competition moving from low-end product
<br>to high-end product ... also significantly reduced downward price
<br>pressure ... further allowing for price increases and increased profits.
<p><a href="http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#hsdt">. . .</a>
<p>One some of the visits, some of the electronic companies couldn't help
<br>but brag about what they were doing in conjunction with their auto
<br>companies and various parts of the technology. They would also show-off
<br>some of the electronic consumer goods ... they were in the process
of
<br>moving to 90day product cycle .... in some cases elapsed time to
<br>schedule container shipments and delivery to the US could take half
of a
<br>product life cycle.
<p>I could get things like surface mount technology with automated
<br>assemblies as matter of course. Surface mount assembly lines looked
<br>almost like chips were being spray painted onto circuit boards.
<p>In the US at the time, there was one operation that sort of simulated
<br>surface mount technology ...&nbsp; and they were doing it by taking
standard
<br>chips and cutting the connectors off flush with the bottom of the chip
<br>surface.</blockquote>

<p><br>The automotive industry I believe benefited alot from the early
<br>80's shift in US policies. The initial benefit came from moving
<br>assembly foreign plants to the US and Canada. It provided both
<br>employment and up close competition as a wakeup call to the
<br>US big three. The first plants I visited in the 80's in the detroit
<br>area were pretty rough, things like issue the assembly line with
<br>rubber hammers to force body panels into place.
<p>The new plants brought new opportunities for the North American
<br>supply chain. The suppliers discovered a couple things, the first
<br>was QA and incoming inspection of parts. A new name
<br>(Deming) became familiar as part of the manufacturing process.
<br>There was now real information on fit and finish and the big
<br>three needed to understand that good fit and finish sold cars
<br>and lowered production and maintenance costs.
<p>My ahh-ha moment came at a VCR assembly plant in Japan.
<br>I had been at a bunch of assembly plants in the US and
<br>Japan in the previous months. A few days earlier I had been
<br>to a computer games plant in upstate New York. They at
<br>the time had a warehoused about 7 months production.
<br>The VCR plant was small maybe 4000 square feet, at the
<br>end of the building was three loading docks and color coded
<br>lines on the floor so that forklift trucks could operate without
<br>interference depending if a specific truck was being off loaded
<br>or loaded. A truck would arrive with parts and wait for a load.
<p>At one point in the conversation with the plant manager I
<br>asked how much warehousing the plant had. His answer
<br>was my ahh-ha moment. His answer was 43 to 45 minutes.
<br>Well organized *Just in time* solved many problems.
<p>w..
<br>&nbsp;</html>
Re: What Makes an Architecture Bizarre? [message #97381 is a reply to message #97380] Thu, 18 July 2013 10:02 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Anne &amp; Lynn Wheel is currently offline  Anne &amp; Lynn Wheel
Messages: 3156
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> writes:
> The new plants brought new opportunities for the North American

> supply chain. The suppliers discovered a couple things, the first

> was QA and incoming inspection of parts. A new name

> (Deming) became familiar as part of the manufacturing process.

> There was now real information on fit and finish and the big

> three needed to understand that good fit and finish sold cars

> and lowered production and maintenance costs.


re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013j.html#1 What Makes an Architecture Bizarre?

Toyota doing Lean manufacturing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lean_manufacturing"
Toyota product system
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Production_System

re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010e.html#47 z9 / z10 instruction speed(s)

mentions Toyota agile/adaptable ... as well as doing it faster
than the competition ... very much Boyd's OODA loop
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop

as I've periodically mentioned, I sponsored Boyd's briefings
at IBM ... some past posts and various Boyd URLs around the web
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subboyd.html

discussion of Deming PDCA and Boyd OODA
http://matthewemay.com/mind-of-the-warrior-got-ooda/

References Taichi Ohno and Toyota Production System as example of OODA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=R bb48uUOkqQ

I've periodically pontificated preferring OODA to PDCA in part, because
PDCA seems to pander more to MBAs ... who've been blamed for a lot of
what is wrong in US corporate culture. also OODA has more stress
on speed/rate of the OODA cycle; misc. past posts mentioning PDCA
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011e.html#90 PDCA vs. OODA
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011e.html#92 PDCA vs. OODA
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011i.html#27 PDCA vs. OODA
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011i.html#34 PDCA vs. OODA
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011n.html#86 PDCA vs. OODA

--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970
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