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Re: New HD [message #33863 is a reply to message #33857] Sat, 19 January 2013 19:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Rod Speed is currently offline  Rod Speed
Messages: 3507
Registered: January 2012
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"Walter Bushell" <proto@panix.com> wrote in message
news:proto-D72F14.19222119012013@news.panix.com...
> In article <alv8a6FptcgU1@mid.individual.net>,

> Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> wrote:

>

>> in 586698 20130119 091018 Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> wrote:

>>> On Fri, 2013-01-18, jmfbahciv wrote:

>>>> Ibmekon wrote:

>>> ....

>>>> > Only in recent years have I begun to be impressed by modern

>>>> > computers.

>>>>

>>>> The hardware is OK; the OSes still need a lot of work. OSes should be

>>>> seen and not heard unless asked.

>>>>

>>>> Every single one still needs to be wrestled with on a minutely basis.

>>>

>>> It's not OSes, but software in general. My hardware may be 100 or

>>> 1000 times larger/faster/better now compare to 1993, but my software

>>> isn't.

>>

>> The faster the CPUs, the cheaper the RAM gets, the sloppier the

>> programmers.

>> Making a program fit in 4KB really concentrated the mind!

>

> Not to mention getting perhaps one or two turn arounds a day. One desk

> checked *well*. Nowadays, you can't produce at the rate you are

> expected to if you do. Submit and recompile and get your sintax[1] err

> errors in seconds.


Yes.

> This produces a more diffuse and confused state of mind


Bullshit it does.

> which is much less pleasant


Even sillier.

> and also more logical errors, methinks.


Even sillier.
Re: New HD [message #33874 is a reply to message #33861] Sun, 20 January 2013 02:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shmuel (Seymour J.) M is currently offline  Shmuel (Seymour J.) M
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In <proto-7570BA.19400819012013@news.panix.com>, on 01/19/2013
at 07:40 PM, Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> said:

> In article <87ip6skcyc.fsf@nudel.nodomain.nowhere>,

> Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:


>> OTOH, I worked once, in 1993, beside a student about to graduate from

>> a university (and presumably respectable) computer science program.

>> He didn't understand that when a system such a Unix was doing several

>> things "at the same time", it was in fact doing only one CPU instruction

>> from a single program at any point in time. Just didn't get it.


> Well depends on how you look at it. I was asked wether DMA access to

> the CPU stopped the CPU or took place simultaneously. Being a

> question from my boss in a class, I replied "Both". The boss laughed

> and asked, "How can it be both?" I of course replied that the DMA

> access stole cycles from the CPU so the CPU instructions ran

> slower.


The correct answer is "It depends." Also, there may be no *the* CPU;
there might be more than one.

On some machines there are multiple paths to memory and even multiple
memory modules running asynchronously to each other. On such machines,
DMA access could potentially have no impact on performance. Similarly,
the existence and design of a cache may affect the answer.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT <http://patriot.net/~shmuel>

Unsolicited bulk E-mail subject to legal action. I reserve the
right to publicly post or ridicule any abusive E-mail. Reply to
domain Patriot dot net user shmuel+news to contact me. Do not
reply to spamtrap@library.lspace.org
Re: New HD [message #33875 is a reply to message #33798] Sun, 20 January 2013 02:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shmuel (Seymour J.) M is currently offline  Shmuel (Seymour J.) M
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In <50FAA334.9214FBE8@bytecraft.com>, on 01/19/2013
at 08:44 AM, Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> said:

> Hardware is still sold, a lot of the software developed in the

> last twenty years has been developed in the atmosphere of software

> should be *free*. There is little incentive for innovative software

> development.


There's been plenty of free innovative mainframe software. For that
matter, there are free PC compilers and interpreters for a number of
languages, some quite innovative.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT <http://patriot.net/~shmuel>

Unsolicited bulk E-mail subject to legal action. I reserve the
right to publicly post or ridicule any abusive E-mail. Reply to
domain Patriot dot net user shmuel+news to contact me. Do not
reply to spamtrap@library.lspace.org
Re: New HD [message #33876 is a reply to message #33788] Sun, 20 January 2013 02:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shmuel (Seymour J.) M is currently offline  Shmuel (Seymour J.) M
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In <slrnkfkp9i.ah7.grahn+nntp@frailea.sa.invalid>, on 01/19/2013
at 09:19 AM, Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> said:

> I think there is, but I think there's also something wrong with his

> MIME encoding. slrn actually complains with an error message:


> "Expected closing '>' character in the address"


What is in the full raw From header field?

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT <http://patriot.net/~shmuel>

Unsolicited bulk E-mail subject to legal action. I reserve the
right to publicly post or ridicule any abusive E-mail. Reply to
domain Patriot dot net user shmuel+news to contact me. Do not
reply to spamtrap@library.lspace.org
Re: New HD [message #33877 is a reply to message #33876] Sun, 20 January 2013 03:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Stan Barr is currently offline  Stan Barr
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On Sun, 20 Jan 2013 02:07:56 -0500, Shmuel Metz
<spamtrap@library.lspace.org.invalid> wrote:
> In <slrnkfkp9i.ah7.grahn+nntp@frailea.sa.invalid>, on 01/19/2013

> at 09:19 AM, Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> said:

>

>> I think there is, but I think there's also something wrong with his

>> MIME encoding. slrn actually complains with an error message:

>

>> "Expected closing '>' character in the address"

>

> What is in the full raw From header field?

>


I think the problem is the ^N^N in the address. Ctrl-N is the ASCII
code for Shift-Out which indicates that the following characters are
not part of the standard set until a Shift-In (Ctrl-O) is encountered.
I think this will cause slrn to see the end-of-address angle bracket
as an alien character and ignore its function, leading to the above
error message. Edit out the Ctrl-Ns and see if the problem goes away.

--
Cheers,
Stan Barr plan.b .at. dsl .dot. pipex .dot. com

The future was never like this!
Re: New HD [message #33878 is a reply to message #33854] Sun, 20 January 2013 03:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Stan Barr is currently offline  Stan Barr
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On 19 Jan 2013 23:22:04 GMT, Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> wrote:
> On Sat, 2013-01-19, Stan Barr wrote:

> ...

>> I like Gnome2 because you can make it somewhat oldschool Mac-like.

>> Someone on the Gnome2 team was obviously a Mac user.

>

> Most likely the same guy who decided OK/Cancel dialogues should say

> [Cancel] [OK] rather than [OK] [Cancel]. Very annoying for (as far as

> I can tell) users of pretty much anything but a Mac.


Historical note:
Legend has it that the original Mac prompt said [cancel] [doit] and users
read doit as dolt and took offence :-)

--
Cheers,
Stan Barr plan.b .at. dsl .dot. pipex .dot. com

The future was never like this!
Re: New HD [message #33883 is a reply to message #33862] Sun, 20 January 2013 04:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Juancho is currently offline  Juancho
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Rod Speed wrote:
> Juancho <juancho@notarealaddress.org> wrote

>

>> Rod Speed wrote

>

>

>>> Oh bullshit.

>

>

>> Hi, Rod!

>

>

> Wota stunning line in rational argument you have there, child.


Tasty bait, ain't it?
Re: New HD [message #33884 is a reply to message #33877] Sun, 20 January 2013 04:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Stan Barr is currently offline  Stan Barr
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On 20 Jan 2013 08:50:47 GMT, Stan Barr <plan.b@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Jan 2013 02:07:56 -0500, Shmuel Metz

> <spamtrap@library.lspace.org.invalid> wrote:

>> In <slrnkfkp9i.ah7.grahn+nntp@frailea.sa.invalid>, on 01/19/2013

>> at 09:19 AM, Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> said:

>>

>>> I think there is, but I think there's also something wrong with his

>>> MIME encoding. slrn actually complains with an error message:

>>

>>> "Expected closing '>' character in the address"

>>

>> What is in the full raw From header field?

>>

>

> I think the problem is the ^N^N in the address. Ctrl-N is the ASCII

> code for Shift-Out which indicates that the following characters are

> not part of the standard set until a Shift-In (Ctrl-O) is encountered.

> I think this will cause slrn to see the end-of-address angle bracket

> as an alien character and ignore its function, leading to the above

> error message. Edit out the Ctrl-Ns and see if the problem goes away.

>


Just tried it by editing the cached message and it does indeed solve
the problem.

--
Cheers,
Stan Barr plan.b .at. dsl .dot. pipex .dot. com

The future was never like this!
Re: New HD [message #33885 is a reply to message #33878] Sun, 20 January 2013 05:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hda is currently offline  hda
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On 20 Jan 2013 08:50:47 GMT, Stan Barr <plan.b@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:

> On 19 Jan 2013 23:22:04 GMT, Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> wrote:

>> On Sat, 2013-01-19, Stan Barr wrote:

>> ...

>>> I like Gnome2 because you can make it somewhat oldschool Mac-like.

>>> Someone on the Gnome2 team was obviously a Mac user.

>>

>> Most likely the same guy who decided OK/Cancel dialogues should say

>> [Cancel] [OK] rather than [OK] [Cancel]. Very annoying for (as far as

>> I can tell) users of pretty much anything but a Mac.

>

> Historical note:

> Legend has it that the original Mac prompt said [cancel] [doit] and users

> read doit as dolt and took offence :-)


Il doit: don-key !, Ola Kala ?
Re: New HD [message #33889 is a reply to message #33874] Sun, 20 January 2013 08:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Walter Bushell is currently offline  Walter Bushell
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In article <50fb9bad$3$fuzhry+tra$mr2ice@news.patriot.net>,
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spamtrap@library.lspace.org.invalid>
wrote:

> In <proto-7570BA.19400819012013@news.panix.com>, on 01/19/2013

> at 07:40 PM, Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> said:

>

>> In article <87ip6skcyc.fsf@nudel.nodomain.nowhere>,

>> Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:

>

>>> OTOH, I worked once, in 1993, beside a student about to graduate from

>>> a university (and presumably respectable) computer science program.

>>> He didn't understand that when a system such a Unix was doing several

>>> things "at the same time", it was in fact doing only one CPU instruction

>>> from a single program at any point in time. Just didn't get it.

>

>> Well depends on how you look at it. I was asked wether DMA access to

>> the CPU stopped the CPU or took place simultaneously. Being a

>> question from my boss in a class, I replied "Both". The boss laughed

>> and asked, "How can it be both?" I of course replied that the DMA

>> access stole cycles from the CPU so the CPU instructions ran

>> slower.

>

> The correct answer is "It depends." Also, there may be no *the* CPU;

> there might be more than one.

>

> On some machines there are multiple paths to memory and even multiple

> memory modules running asynchronously to each other. On such machines,

> DMA access could potentially have no impact on performance. Similarly,

> the existence and design of a cache may affect the answer.


Well we were talking about a specific machine at the time.

--
This space unintentionally left blank.
Re: New HD [message #33890 is a reply to message #33875] Sun, 20 January 2013 08:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Walter Banks is currently offline  Walter Banks
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Registered: July 2012
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Senior Member
"Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz" wrote:

> In <50FAA334.9214FBE8@bytecraft.com>, on 01/19/2013

> at 08:44 AM, Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> said:

>

>> Hardware is still sold, a lot of the software developed in the

>> last twenty years has been developed in the atmosphere of software

>> should be *free*. There is little incentive for innovative software

>> development.

>

> There's been plenty of free innovative mainframe software. For that

> matter, there are free PC compilers and interpreters for a number of

> languages, some quite innovative.


The bulk of of the PC compilers are based on 30+ year old
technology. In the PC world language design and implementation
has been essentially stalled for several years.

IDE's have been the biggest innovation in language tools
for PC's.

There has been quite a bit of innovation in interpreters.

w..
Re: New HD [message #33891 is a reply to message #33806] Sun, 20 January 2013 08:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Ibmekon

On 19 Jan 2013 14:42:50 GMT, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:

> Jorgen Grahn wrote:

>> On Fri, 2013-01-18, jmfbahciv wrote:

>>> Ibmekon wrote:

>> ...

>>>> Only in recent years have I begun to be impressed by modern computers.

>>>

>>> The hardware is OK; the OSes still need a lot of work. OSes should be

>>> seen and not heard unless asked.

>>>

>>> Every single one still needs to be wrestled with on a minutely basis.

>>

>> It's not OSes, but software in general. My hardware may be 100 or

>> 1000 times larger/faster/better now compare to 1993, but my software

>> isn't.

>

> It's the OS which influences the apps programmers. If they have never

> seen nor experienced a good OS, they won't know how software should

> behave.

>

> /BAH


At your DEC, was there any separation between the scope OS and the
applications ?

Carl Goldsworthy
Re: New HD [message #33892 is a reply to message #33806] Sun, 20 January 2013 08:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Ibmekon

On 19 Jan 2013 14:42:50 GMT, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:

> Jorgen Grahn wrote:

>> On Fri, 2013-01-18, jmfbahciv wrote:

>>> Ibmekon wrote:

>> ...

>>>> Only in recent years have I begun to be impressed by modern computers.

>>>

>>> The hardware is OK; the OSes still need a lot of work. OSes should be

>>> seen and not heard unless asked.

>>>

>>> Every single one still needs to be wrestled with on a minutely basis.

>>

>> It's not OSes, but software in general. My hardware may be 100 or

>> 1000 times larger/faster/better now compare to 1993, but my software

>> isn't.

>

> It's the OS which influences the apps programmers. If they have never

> seen nor experienced a good OS, they won't know how software should

> behave.

>

> /BAH


At DEC, was there any intentional separation between the scope of the
functions of the OS and the applications ?

Carl Goldsworthy
Re: New HD [message #33893 is a reply to message #33806] Sun, 20 January 2013 08:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Ibmekon

On 19 Jan 2013 14:42:50 GMT, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:

> Jorgen Grahn wrote:

>> On Fri, 2013-01-18, jmfbahciv wrote:

>>> Ibmekon wrote:

>> ...

>>>> Only in recent years have I begun to be impressed by modern computers.

>>>

>>> The hardware is OK; the OSes still need a lot of work. OSes should be

>>> seen and not heard unless asked.

>>>

>>> Every single one still needs to be wrestled with on a minutely basis.

>>

>> It's not OSes, but software in general. My hardware may be 100 or

>> 1000 times larger/faster/better now compare to 1993, but my software

>> isn't.

>

> It's the OS which influences the apps programmers. If they have never

> seen nor experienced a good OS, they won't know how software should

> behave.

>

> /BAH
Re: New HD [message #33898 is a reply to message #33883] Sun, 20 January 2013 10:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Rod Speed is currently offline  Rod Speed
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"Juancho" <juancho@notarealaddress.org> wrote in message
news:kdgbsf$a6i$1@dont-email.me...
> Rod Speed wrote:

>> Juancho <juancho@notarealaddress.org> wrote

>>

>>> Rod Speed wrote

>>

>>

>>>> Oh bullshit.

>>

>>

>>> Hi, Rod!

>>

>>

>> Wota stunning line in rational argument you have there, child.

>

> Tasty bait, ain't it?


Any 2 year old could leave that for dead, child.
Re: New HD [message #33900 is a reply to message #33891] Sun, 20 January 2013 10:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jmfbahciv is currently offline  jmfbahciv
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Senior Member
Ibmekon wrote:
> On 19 Jan 2013 14:42:50 GMT, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:

>

>> Jorgen Grahn wrote:

>>> On Fri, 2013-01-18, jmfbahciv wrote:

>>>> Ibmekon wrote:

>>> ...

>>>> > Only in recent years have I begun to be impressed by modern computers.

>>>>

>>>> The hardware is OK; the OSes still need a lot of work. OSes should be

>>>> seen and not heard unless asked.

>>>>

>>>> Every single one still needs to be wrestled with on a minutely basis.

>>>

>>> It's not OSes, but software in general. My hardware may be 100 or

>>> 1000 times larger/faster/better now compare to 1993, but my software

>>> isn't.

>>

>> It's the OS which influences the apps programmers. If they have never

>> seen nor experienced a good OS, they won't know how software should

>> behave.

>>

>> /BAH

>

> At your DEC, was there any separation between the scope OS and the

> applications ?


I don't understand the question.

With TOPS-20, a user could hit $ or ? depending on what kind of
help s/he wanted. In alll other cases, the OS stayed out of the
way and allowed the user to whatever s/he wanted, including
obeying commands and arranging resources so that access was
immediate and scheduling devices and software resources was
alsmost invisible.

AFter the PDP-10 OS programmers moved in the VMS groups, VMS
started to do similar things.

Apps were able to use system calls, which were very well defined,
if they needed any data or actions from the monitor. Apps were
not allowed to place their trendils in the EXEC portions of the
monitor. Monitors executed as much of their code in behalf
of the user and not in exec mode.

A huge part of MS' bugs is their corporate folklore of allowing
this to happen. Cutler had a battle early on to prevent any
random app from placing tendrils in the monitor (you call it
kernel) but lost that battle. This was unfortunate.

/BAH
Re: New HD [message #33901 is a reply to message #33890] Sun, 20 January 2013 10:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dan Espen is currently offline  Dan Espen
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Senior Member
Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> writes:

> "Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz" wrote:

>

>> In <50FAA334.9214FBE8@bytecraft.com>, on 01/19/2013

>> at 08:44 AM, Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> said:

>>

>>> Hardware is still sold, a lot of the software developed in the

>>> last twenty years has been developed in the atmosphere of software

>>> should be *free*. There is little incentive for innovative software

>>> development.

>>

>> There's been plenty of free innovative mainframe software. For that

>> matter, there are free PC compilers and interpreters for a number of

>> languages, some quite innovative.

>

> The bulk of of the PC compilers are based on 30+ year old

> technology. In the PC world language design and implementation

> has been essentially stalled for several years.


Any evidence to back up your assertion?

I don't follow GCC all that closely, but it seems to me there are
new versions and release numbers and talk of forks. Must be something
going on there.

--
Dan Espen
Re: New HD [message #33903 is a reply to message #33839] Sun, 20 January 2013 11:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
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On 1/19/2013 5:48 PM, Charles Richmond wrote:
> <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote in message

> news:10398dcb-d9e4-4304-a58f-74fc1070ac2c@a15g2000vbf.googlegroups.com...

> On Jan 18, 8:36 am, Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com> wrote:

>

>>> When I got my first 40 meg drive I thought I had infinite storage and

>>> I did for the available media of the time. No music, except perhaps

>>> midi and certainly no video, hell the confuser B&W not even grayscale.

>>

>> Photos collectively do take up a lot of room.

>

> Yes, photos take up a lot of room... but silicon is cheaper than silver.

> The old-style paper for printing pictures... as well as the negatives...

> used metalic silver. Flash memories do *not* require such quantities of

> silver.

>



OTOH, many photos 150 years old or so are still in file condition. Will
the computer stuff still be readable? {old nit returns)



--
Pete
Re: New HD [message #33904 is a reply to message #33855] Sun, 20 January 2013 11:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
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Senior Member
On 1/19/2013 6:24 PM, Canbear wrote:
>

> I recently found a freeware DOS CD Player written entirely in

> assembly. I appreciate those people who can code in low-level

> languages. It makes knowing how the computer architecture utilizes

> instructions so much clearer.


Many of us old-times learned much of what we know of 360 assembler by
reading the HASP source.

--
Pete
Re: New HD [message #33905 is a reply to message #33858] Sun, 20 January 2013 11:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
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On 1/19/2013 7:27 PM, Walter Bushell wrote:
>

> I used Foxbase+ Mac and it was a great product for the time. When I

> heard that Microsoft was taking it over I knew the jig was probably

> up.


Micro$oft is the CA of small computers.

--
Pete
Re: New HD [message #33906 is a reply to message #33860] Sun, 20 January 2013 11:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
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On 1/19/2013 7:34 PM, Walter Bushell wrote:
> In article <kdf7mn$7g4$1@dont-email.me>,

> "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> wrote:

>>

>> Walter, what you need is a new *camera* for your camera... :-)

>>

>

> The thought has occurred to me, but the current camera has a nice

> feature set for my needs and I have enough New Englander in me to "Use

> it up, wear it out; make it do or do without".


I've got a few things around the house I'm just praying die. I agree
with you, I can't stand to throw out something that still works.


--
Pete
Re: New HD [message #33907 is a reply to message #33874] Sun, 20 January 2013 11:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
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On 1/20/2013 2:24 AM, Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz wrote:
> In <proto-7570BA.19400819012013@news.panix.com>, on 01/19/2013

> at 07:40 PM, Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> said:

>

>> In article <87ip6skcyc.fsf@nudel.nodomain.nowhere>,

>> Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:

>

>>> OTOH, I worked once, in 1993, beside a student about to graduate from

>>> a university (and presumably respectable) computer science program.

>>> He didn't understand that when a system such a Unix was doing several

>>> things "at the same time", it was in fact doing only one CPU instruction

>>> from a single program at any point in time. Just didn't get it.

>

>> Well depends on how you look at it. I was asked wether DMA access to

>> the CPU stopped the CPU or took place simultaneously. Being a

>> question from my boss in a class, I replied "Both". The boss laughed

>> and asked, "How can it be both?" I of course replied that the DMA

>> access stole cycles from the CPU so the CPU instructions ran

>> slower.

>

> The correct answer is "It depends."


Isn't that the correct answer to everything ;-) I suppose it depends.


--
Pete
Re: New HD [message #33908 is a reply to message #33903] Sun, 20 January 2013 12:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
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On Sun, 20 Jan 2013 11:36:43 -0500
Peter Flass <Peter_Flass@Yahoo.com> wrote:

> OTOH, many photos 150 years old or so are still in file condition. Will

> the computer stuff still be readable? {old nit returns)


It will - provided it's been copied onto more up to date media as
it becomes available and before the old media is unreadable.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: New HD [message #33909 is a reply to message #33890] Sun, 20 January 2013 13:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
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On Sun, 20 Jan 2013 08:37:42 -0500
Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> wrote:

> The bulk of of the PC compilers are based on 30+ year old

> technology. In the PC world language design and implementation

> has been essentially stalled for several years.


Hmm - not convinced, although I think a lot of the improvements in
things like gcc have been in the area of improving optimisation onto modern
processors.

> IDE's have been the biggest innovation in language tools

> for PC's.


I have noticed aspect weaving becoming quite commonplace in the
Java world these days, I recall reading about it as a research topic some
years back. Also in the Java world the rise of annotations and autowiring
is an interesting development - I'm not sure I like all of it, but it's
interesting.

IDEs are a PITA. For complex bits of software I like to do
development and testing in VMs to keep projects isolated from each other so
as not to accidentally mess up the dependency handling (and so that I can
feel confident that my local testing is valid) - IDEs IME do not handle
this well, they are for the most part set up to do everything on the local
box with the GUI.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: New HD [message #33921 is a reply to message #33859] Sun, 20 January 2013 13:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
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In article <proto-23DDEF.19290919012013@news.panix.com>, proto@panix.com
(Walter Bushell) writes:

> In article <hqblf8pacej02i360jh5qjqh0b5ukpsbpl@4ax.com>,

> JimP. <pongbill127@cableone.net> wrote:

>

>> On Sat, 19 Jan 2013 13:12:31 +0000, Ibmekon wrote:

>>

>>> I read more about the Fox Software company. They said they regarded

>>> programming as an engineering activity - not an art form.

>>> They introduced Mac style windowing in their product under DOS.

>>>

>>> When a new version was released they challenged users to find any

>>> bug whatsoever. I never did.

>>>

>>> In 1992 Microsoft took them over - pity they did not adopt their

>>> attitude.

>>

>> Microsoft's ignorance isn't anyone's bliss.

>

> In the apparent opinion of the M$ management it was to the advantage

> of M$ advantage.


This seemingly paradoxical behaviour comes clear when you realize
that Microsoft's goal is not to write quality software. It is to
make money. History tells us that these two goals are not necessarily
in alignment; there's more money to be made writing cheap shit.

--
/~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
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Re: New HD [message #33922 is a reply to message #33890] Sun, 20 January 2013 13:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
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In article <50FBF326.9B3A2D93@bytecraft.com>, walter@bytecraft.com
(Walter Banks) writes:

> IDE's have been the biggest innovation in language tools

> for PC's.


That's a matter of opinion. I'd take a good text editor of
my own choosing and a symbolic debugger any day.

--
/~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!
Re: New HD [message #33923 is a reply to message #33842] Sun, 20 January 2013 13:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
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In article <kdf8m8$cub$1@dont-email.me>, numerist@aquaporin4.com
(Charles Richmond) writes:

> "Charlie Gibbs" <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote in message

> news:945.802T2719T8376240@kltpzyxm.invalid...

>

>> In article <slrnkfkonp.ah7.grahn+nntp@frailea.sa.invalid>,

>> grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se (Jorgen Grahn) writes:

>>

>>> On Fri, 2013-01-18, jmfbahciv wrote:

>>>

>>>> Ibmekon wrote:

>>> ...

>>>> > Only in recent years have I begun to be impressed by modern

>>>> > computers.

>>>>

>>>> The hardware is OK; the OSes still need a lot of work. OSes

>>>> should be seen and not heard unless asked.

>>>>

>>>> Every single one still needs to be wrestled with on a minutely

>>>> basis.

>>>

>>> It's not OSes, but software in general. My hardware may be 100 or

>>> 1000 times larger/faster/better now compare to 1993, but my software

>>> isn't.

>>

>> Your software might not be faster or better, but it _is_ larger.

>> What the heck, two out of three ain't bad.

>

> Charlie... only *one* out of three has improved. The *size* has

> increased. One out of three *is* pretty bad....


Oops. I was focusing on the fact that software wasn't really
"better", and missed the fact that it isn't faster either.
LIke harware, though, it's definitely larger. OK, 1 for 3.

But this is all irrelevant in the eyes of a company like Microsoft.
The one relevant question is: "Does it make money?" And there,
alas, the answer is a resounding "yes".

--
/~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!
Re: New HD [message #33924 is a reply to message #33908] Sun, 20 January 2013 13:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joe Makowiec is currently offline  Joe Makowiec
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Member
On 20 Jan 2013 in alt.folklore.computers, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

> On Sun, 20 Jan 2013 11:36:43 -0500

> Peter Flass <Peter_Flass@Yahoo.com> wrote:

>

>> OTOH, many photos 150 years old or so are still in file condition.

>> Will the computer stuff still be readable? {old nit returns)

>

> It will - provided it's been copied onto more up to date media as

> it becomes available and before the old media is unreadable.


It's not just the media, it's the file format. You're making the
assumption that, in the future, there will still be software capable of
reading the format. Word processing files are notorious examples of
this. Even if they've been moved from 8 inch floppies to 5.25 inch
floppies to 3.5 inch floppies to a HDD to whatever assorted solid state
media, on many of them, the best one can hope to do is extract the text
by judicious application of, say, GNU 'strings' (assuming that they're
ASCII and not EBCDIC). Image files aren't so fortunate. Bitmapped files
may be translatable if they're recognized. But for compressed files, the
notional future viewer will have to recognize the compression as well as
the image.

--
Joe Makowiec
http://makowiec.org/
Email: http://makowiec.org/contact/?Joe
Usenet Improvement Project: http://twovoyagers.com/improve-usenet.org/
Re: New HD [message #33925 is a reply to message #33671] Sun, 20 January 2013 14:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charles Richmond is currently offline  Charles Richmond
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Registered: December 2011
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"jmfbahciv" <See.above@aol.com> wrote in message
news:PM0004D391374CBAF0@aca2fcab.ipt.aol.com...
> Patrick Scheible wrote:

>> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> writes:

>>

>>> philo wrote:

>>>> It seems like only yesterday when I upgraded the hard drive in my P-1

>>>> from 850 megs to 2 gigs.

>>>>

>>>> I recall how nervous I was handling a drive so large. The first time I

>>>> used it...I felt like I was walking around inside a *huge* cavern.

>>>>

>>>> Today the new 3TB drive arrived for my spare machine...

>>>> no big deal, it's already half-obsolete, larger ones are available.

>>>

>>> <grin> At least you were able to experience some awe and humility.

>>

>> Nothing like hard disc drive sizes to make me feel old.

>>

>> Remember the 40 megabyte drives.... the size of dishwashers.

>

> I remember the 20K ones (DECism) and how wonderful they were

> because I could edit any file with TECO cutting my work time

> by 100% or more. A lot of my work (1620 and cards) just disappeared

> so I got to do more interesting stuff.

>


BAH makes a very good point here. Besides the size of a hard disk, one must
remember the ease of use the hard disk provided. Editing files from disk
and then saving them was very fast, especially compared to working with mag
tape, or cards, or paper tape. And even the fairly small hard disks provided
a great speed of work advantage. Completed work could be "backed up" onto
mag tape.
--

numerist at aquaporin4 dot com
Re: New HD [message #33926 is a reply to message #33771] Sun, 20 January 2013 14:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charles Richmond is currently offline  Charles Richmond
Messages: 2754
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<hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote in message
news:2c922168-4cb6-4f85-a5ad-b55b3631b5db@w18g2000vbe.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 18, 3:01 am, Canbear <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:

>> Back in the day, 1980s or even the 1990s, if you even suggested such a

>> future, they would say you watch too much Star Trek.

>> But here it is.

>

> The kicker is these things are cheap, sold next to candy bars at the

> drugstore. I might have envisioned something like them some years

> ago, but restricted to major computer labs and such.


I think most here got the "oh wow!" feeling many times... when technology
exceeded our expectations. I remember a decade or so ago, I was amazed that
the local discount store sold small 16 megabyte expansion cards... for video
games!!! It was "for storing extra saved games"... and I was dismayed that
useful technology was being put to such a trivial use.

>

> Heck, I was happy when I first got a PC and could run GW-BASIC and do

> the stuff I did (and more) without paying for a Teletype and computer

> service.


I feared that when I got out of the university, I would lose access to
machines that could compile HLL's like PL/I, Pascal, or FORTRAN. (I did
*not* yet use C back then.) Of course, at a place of employment, I would
have such access... but I was interested in programming my own personal
projects. Or access to machines that could run "powerful" languages like
SNOBOL4 or APL. With the progress of the technology, that fear was
unfounded. Now my new fear is... that *everything* I know will become
obsolete and useless in a pragmatic sense.

--

numerist at aquaporin4 dot com
Re: New HD [message #33927 is a reply to message #33877] Sun, 20 January 2013 12:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shmuel (Seymour J.) M is currently offline  Shmuel (Seymour J.) M
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Registered: July 2012
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Senior Member
In <slrnkfn99a.28r.plan.b@ID-309335.user.uni-berlin.de>, on 01/20/2013
at 08:50 AM, Stan Barr <plan.b@dsl.pipex.com> said:

> I think the problem is the ^N^N in the address.


Which was not included in the attribution line )-:

RFC 5322 allows SO, but it is designated as obsolete. Neither RFC 5322
nor RFC 5536 makes SO or SI delimiters. I'd suggest submitting a bug
report. I'd also suggest not using obsolete control characters in
header fields, even if the slrn bug gets fixed.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT <http://patriot.net/~shmuel>

Unsolicited bulk E-mail subject to legal action. I reserve the
right to publicly post or ridicule any abusive E-mail. Reply to
domain Patriot dot net user shmuel+news to contact me. Do not
reply to spamtrap@library.lspace.org
Re: New HD [message #33928 is a reply to message #33774] Sun, 20 January 2013 14:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charles Richmond is currently offline  Charles Richmond
Messages: 2754
Registered: December 2011
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"Canbear" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:0s2kf8971p5tvd0tfb6govsd97hco56uhr@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 18 Jan 2013 17:57:50 -0800 (PST), hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:

>

>> Heck, I was happy when I first got a PC and could run GW-BASIC and do

>> the stuff I did (and more) without paying for a Teletype and computer

>> service.

>

> But also aren't you glad you were there to watch it all evolve?

>


Yes, I am glad I got to see things evolve. But in a way, it's like watching
a train wreck: it is somewhat interesting... unless you are *on* the
train!!! Evolving technology has buried a lot of things that the old
timers held dear...

> When I used to be on Compuserve, it was all text. But even then, the

> stuff you could do was cool - at least I thought so. In your face

> advertising was practically non-existent. But it was the BBSes that

> were the best places to find cool stuff. It was a BBS where I

> downloaded my very first graphic - quite exhilarating actually. I

> can't remember the exact format, but it was a vector image - that much

> I know.


Canbear, it *was* cool!!! It is *still* cool!!! People are so addicted to
"instant gratification" and getting results almost *before* doing
anything... that people have trouble appreciating the things we did 15, 20,
30, or 40 years ago. We were amazed that computers could do things that
were otherwise undo-able back then. Such things are taken for granted
now... axioms instead of theorems. We were computing things that average
folks today just do *not* want to compute. We lived at a different level in
the tech hierarchy. The things we computed... support that level of the
hierarchy, but people today live at a different level.

> I guess the best way to describe Compuserve and Genie (which a

> co-worker of mine subscribed), et al, is like Telnet.

>

> Which is another thing. There used to be TONS of Telnet directories in

> the early days of the internet. Now they are all gone for the most

> part. Gopher is still going strong for those faithful of the protocol.

> I still quite like Gopherspace and still visit Floodgap often to see

> new Gopher sites that emerge.

>


I miss Archie and all the Archie databases that used to be kept mostly at
different universities. These were *great* for finding a particular file on
the internet. Now I'm pretty much stuck with whatever Google will do for
me. All the specialized file search tools seem to be gone.

--

numerist at aquaporin4 dot com
Re: New HD [message #33929 is a reply to message #33838] Sun, 20 January 2013 14:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charles Richmond is currently offline  Charles Richmond
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"Mike Spencer" <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote in message
news:87ip6skcyc.fsf@nudel.nodomain.nowhere...
>

> Canbear <nospam@nospam.com> writes:

>

>> On Fri, 18 Jan 2013 17:57:50 -0800 (PST), hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:

>>

>>> Heck, I was happy when I first got a PC and could run GW-BASIC and do

>>> the stuff I did (and more) without paying for a Teletype and computer

>>> service.

>>

>> But also aren't you glad you were there to watch it all evolve?

>

> I wrote a ca. 100-line program in Fortran in '63, then didn't touch a

> computer for over 20 years.

>


Boy!!! You must have been shocked at how far things had come in "only 20
years"!!!

> I'm particularly glad that I got my first computer when I did: An

> Osborne I in '87 when the typical user had a Mac or DOS/Win-2.0.

> I made a hand-raised copper curry pan and swapped it even for the O1,

> printer & software.

>

> In order to do anything interesting, I had to learn Z80/8080 assembler

> and C. Starting only a bit later, with a less obsolete 80x86, I might

> never have spent those many hours on such low-level stuff but, as I

> did, I now have a much better grasp that I might have of what's really

> happening inside my Linux boxen.


ISTM that it's always good to have a grasp of what is *really* going on at
the lower levels.

>

> OTOH, I worked once, in 1993, beside a student about to graduate from

> a university (and presumably respectable) computer science program.

> He didn't understand that when a system such a Unix was doing several

> things "at the same time", it was in fact doing only one CPU instruction

> from a single program at any point in time. Just didn't get it.

>

> Huh.


Yes, properly put, the programs ran "concurrently" rather than
"simultaneously". In the older days, all programs shared the same CPU.
Now, with multiple "cores" of CPU's and multiple execution units inside
*one* CPU... several instructions *can* be done simultaneously.

What the current crop of computer science students *think* is going on
inside the computer... is most likely far removed from reality.

--

numerist at aquaporin4 dot com
Re: New HD [message #33930 is a reply to message #33901] Sun, 20 January 2013 14:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Walter Banks is currently offline  Walter Banks
Messages: 1000
Registered: July 2012
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Senior Member
Dan Espen wrote:

> Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> writes:

>

>> "Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz" wrote:

>>

>>> In <50FAA334.9214FBE8@bytecraft.com>, on 01/19/2013

>>> at 08:44 AM, Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> said:

>>>

>>>> Hardware is still sold, a lot of the software developed in the

>>>> last twenty years has been developed in the atmosphere of software

>>>> should be *free*. There is little incentive for innovative software

>>>> development.

>>>

>>> There's been plenty of free innovative mainframe software. For that

>>> matter, there are free PC compilers and interpreters for a number of

>>> languages, some quite innovative.

>>

>> The bulk of of the PC compilers are based on 30+ year old

>> technology. In the PC world language design and implementation

>> has been essentially stalled for several years.

>

> Any evidence to back up your assertion?

>

> I don't follow GCC all that closely, but it seems to me there are

> new versions and release numbers and talk of forks. Must be something

>


There are lots of new GCC releases but the fundamental design
has not changed. The design holes that were in GCC more than
a decade ago remain.They still don't participate in language standards
there overall code generation has only minimally improved in the
last 15 years. LLVM has for the most part not really changed
the fundamental issues in GCC although as a project it is better
managed.

Harsh words maybe but there is a lot of room for the addition of
new technology but it will require major redesign and perhaps a
million new lines of code.

w..
Re: New HD [message #33932 is a reply to message #33904] Sun, 20 January 2013 14:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charles Richmond is currently offline  Charles Richmond
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"Peter Flass" <Peter_Flass@Yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:kdh6is$roo$2@dont-email.me...
> On 1/19/2013 6:24 PM, Canbear wrote:

>>

>> I recently found a freeware DOS CD Player written entirely in

>> assembly. I appreciate those people who can code in low-level

>> languages. It makes knowing how the computer architecture utilizes

>> instructions so much clearer.

>

> Many of us old-times learned much of what we know of 360 assembler by

> reading the HASP source.

>


I learned IBM 370 assembler in a college class using the second edition of
the Struble book. That book kept saying "the bits fell off the end into the
bit bucket". This "bit bucket" terminology was unfamiliar to me, and it was
a while before I understood what the "bit bucket" was. :-) After all, with
all the arcane things I was learning about how the computer worked... the
"bit bucket" might be just another of those things.

This was my first exposure to assembly language. Before I had done only
FORTRAN (II and IV) and BASIC.

--

numerist at aquaporin4 dot com
Re: New HD [message #33933 is a reply to message #33922] Sun, 20 January 2013 14:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Walter Banks is currently offline  Walter Banks
Messages: 1000
Registered: July 2012
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Senior Member
Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> In article <50FBF326.9B3A2D93@bytecraft.com>, walter@bytecraft.com

> (Walter Banks) writes:

>

>> IDE's have been the biggest innovation in language tools

>> for PC's.

>

> That's a matter of opinion. I'd take a good text editor of

> my own choosing and a symbolic debugger any day.


I have mixed opinions on IDE's despite my comment. As a tools
provider I am increasingly seeing embedded programmers modifying
reference designs and turning them into applications. For those
folks IDE technology manages the project for them. That is
the innovation part of IDE's that has evolved quite nicely.

Personally I use a familiar text editor and our own debug tools.

w..
Re: New HD [message #33934 is a reply to message #33906] Sun, 20 January 2013 15:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charles Richmond is currently offline  Charles Richmond
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"Peter Flass" <Peter_Flass@Yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:kdh6pf$roo$4@dont-email.me...
> On 1/19/2013 7:34 PM, Walter Bushell wrote:

>> In article <kdf7mn$7g4$1@dont-email.me>,

>> "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> wrote:

>>>

>>> Walter, what you need is a new *camera* for your camera... :-)

>>>

>>

>> The thought has occurred to me, but the current camera has a nice

>> feature set for my needs and I have enough New Englander in me to "Use

>> it up, wear it out; make it do or do without".

>

> I've got a few things around the house I'm just praying die. I agree with

> you, I can't stand to throw out something that still works.

>


For different values of "work". If what you have will *not* do the jobs you
want to do... stepping up to a newer item *might* be useful. That's *not*
to say that I would throw away the old one!!! You might find that the old
one can do things that the new one can *not*.

The thing is... we tend to drift away from the old one, when we acquire a
new one. I do *not* have the time or space in my life to keep all my old
computer hardware up and running at all times. I remember someone used to
have a separate building from his house... where he had electric power and
room to set up his older systems. One would *need* that in order to keep
the older stuff running.

--

numerist at aquaporin4 dot com
Re: New HD [message #33935 is a reply to message #33923] Sun, 20 January 2013 15:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charles Richmond is currently offline  Charles Richmond
Messages: 2754
Registered: December 2011
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Senior Member
"Charlie Gibbs" <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote in message
news:1679.803T935T6234320@kltpzyxm.invalid...
> In article <kdf8m8$cub$1@dont-email.me>, numerist@aquaporin4.com

> (Charles Richmond) writes:

>

>> "Charlie Gibbs" <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote in message

>> news:945.802T2719T8376240@kltpzyxm.invalid...

>>>

>>> [snip...] [snip...]

>>> [snip...]

>>>

>>> Your software might not be faster or better, but it _is_ larger.

>>> What the heck, two out of three ain't bad.

>>

>> Charlie... only *one* out of three has improved. The *size* has

>> increased. One out of three *is* pretty bad....

>

> Oops. I was focusing on the fact that software wasn't really

> "better", and missed the fact that it isn't faster either.

> LIke harware, though, it's definitely larger. OK, 1 for 3.

>

> But this is all irrelevant in the eyes of a company like Microsoft.

> The one relevant question is: "Does it make money?" And there,

> alas, the answer is a resounding "yes".

>


You are "mighty right" Charlie!!! Mi$uck is only concerned with "Does it
make money?". Certainly, there are many debase and wicked ways to make
money. Destroying the quality of modern life through destroying any vestage
of quality in the software... is only one way to make money. But it's the
way that Mi$uck knows best!!!

--

numerist at aquaporin4 dot com
Re: New HD [message #33936 is a reply to message #33909] Sun, 20 January 2013 15:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Walter Banks is currently offline  Walter Banks
Messages: 1000
Registered: July 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

> On Sun, 20 Jan 2013 08:37:42 -0500

> Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> wrote:

>

>> The bulk of of the PC compilers are based on 30+ year old

>> technology. In the PC world language design and implementation

>> has been essentially stalled for several years.

>

> Hmm - not convinced, although I think a lot of the improvements in

> things like gcc have been in the area of improving optimisation onto modern

> processors.


They have also missed some fundamental modern optimization
needs as well. GCC does not do strategy passes, adhere to processor
family member specific code generation constraints and still does badly
when generating code for non orthogonal ISA's.

>> IDE's have been the biggest innovation in language tools

>> for PC's.

>

> I have noticed aspect weaving becoming quite commonplace in the

> Java world these days, I recall reading about it as a research topic some

> years back. Also in the Java world the rise of annotations and autowiring

> is an interesting development - I'm not sure I like all of it, but it's

> interesting.


I was thinking of this when someone made a comment about PL/1 and
Watfor compiler auto error correcting.

> IDEs are a PITA. For complex bits of software I like to do

> development and testing in VMs to keep projects isolated from each other so

> as not to accidentally mess up the dependency handling (and so that I can

> feel confident that my local testing is valid) - IDEs IME do not handle

> this well, they are for the most part set up to do everything on the local

> box with the GUI.


I suspect that most here probably don't use IDE's. My comment was
on innovation. In that area they do reasonably well at managing projects.
that start out as reference designs that get turned into applications.

w..
Re: New HD [message #33937 is a reply to message #33878] Sun, 20 January 2013 15:07 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Charles Richmond is currently offline  Charles Richmond
Messages: 2754
Registered: December 2011
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Senior Member
"Stan Barr" <plan.b@dsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:slrnkfn8u2.28r.plan.b@ID-309335.user.uni-berlin.de...
> On 19 Jan 2013 23:22:04 GMT, Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se>

> wrote:

>> On Sat, 2013-01-19, Stan Barr wrote:

>> ...

>>> I like Gnome2 because you can make it somewhat oldschool Mac-like.

>>> Someone on the Gnome2 team was obviously a Mac user.

>>

>> Most likely the same guy who decided OK/Cancel dialogues should say

>> [Cancel] [OK] rather than [OK] [Cancel]. Very annoying for (as far as

>> I can tell) users of pretty much anything but a Mac.

>

> Historical note:

> Legend has it that the original Mac prompt said [cancel] [doit] and users

> read doit as dolt and took offence :-)

>


Sounds like an "Urban legend", Stan. It is true that the nine-one-one
emergency number in the US was once calle nine-eleven. The 9-1-1 was the
preferred way to say it... because the dumb folk wasted time looking for the
11 key on the phone!!! :-) Stupidity is inifinite.

--

numerist at aquaporin4 dot com
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