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Pataliro [message #28490] Wed, 12 December 2012 15:51 Go to next message
Kenneth M. Lin is currently offline  Kenneth M. Lin
Messages: 229
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Has anyone ever read this? I don't think it's ever been published in
English but it's the longest-running shojo manga (since 1978) and still
going strong.

I remember reading this when I was little but totally didn't get the gay
theme because I was so young. The story takes place mostly in Europe and I
frankly couldn't determine the characters' gender because of strange names
and the way they were drawn.

It's serialized in magazine aimed for junior-high girls but it's choke full
of gay antic and I wonder why it's so accepted. It's definitely the
precursor to the modern yaoi/boys love mangas that are popular among mature
women in their 20s and 30s but I still don't get it. The sad thing is that
the gay aspect is completely unnecessary and it's as the author put it in
there for his own pleasure.
Re: Pataliro [message #28491 is a reply to message #28490] Wed, 12 December 2012 17:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kenneth M. Lin is currently offline  Kenneth M. Lin
Messages: 229
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
http://www.patalliro.com/comics/index.html

This one is pure gay stuff, at least according to the title:

http://www.patalliro.com/comics/index.html

"Kenneth M. Lin" wrote in message
news:M9ednX_W-bTvc1XNnZ2dnUVZ5qednZ2d@giganews.com...

Has anyone ever read this? I don't think it's ever been published in
English but it's the longest-running shojo manga (since 1978) and still
going strong.

I remember reading this when I was little but totally didn't get the gay
theme because I was so young. The story takes place mostly in Europe and I
frankly couldn't determine the characters' gender because of strange names
and the way they were drawn.

It's serialized in magazine aimed for junior-high girls but it's choke full
of gay antic and I wonder why it's so accepted. It's definitely the
precursor to the modern yaoi/boys love mangas that are popular among mature
women in their 20s and 30s but I still don't get it. The sad thing is that
the gay aspect is completely unnecessary and it's as the author put it in
there for his own pleasure.
Re: Pataliro [message #28519 is a reply to message #28491] Wed, 12 December 2012 19:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sellers is currently offline  sellers
Messages: 1143
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 12/12/2012 02:38 PM, Kenneth M. Lin wrote:
> http://www.patalliro.com/comics/index.html

>

> This one is pure gay stuff, at least according to the title:

>

> http://www.patalliro.com/comics/index.html

>

> "Kenneth M. Lin" wrote in message

> news:M9ednX_W-bTvc1XNnZ2dnUVZ5qednZ2d@giganews.com...

>

> Has anyone ever read this? I don't think it's ever been published in

> English but it's the longest-running shojo manga (since 1978) and still

> going strong.

>

> I remember reading this when I was little but totally didn't get the gay

> theme because I was so young. The story takes place mostly in Europe and I

> frankly couldn't determine the characters' gender because of strange names

> and the way they were drawn.

>

> It's serialized in magazine aimed for junior-high girls but it's choke full

> of gay antic and I wonder why it's so accepted. It's definitely the

> precursor to the modern yaoi/boys love mangas that are popular among mature

> women in their 20s and 30s but I still don't get it. The sad thing is that

> the gay aspect is completely unnecessary and it's as the author put it in

> there for his own pleasure.



A bit of Patalliro! is on stoptazmo.com. As for it being gay I think
it looks more like cute according to the Japanese standards.

And mangafox has some of it too. A lot more. Quoting from
their description the following.
PATALLIRO! Manga
パタリロ!; Patalliro; Patariro!
Released: Author & Artist Genre(s):
1979 Maya Mineo Action, Comedy, Mystery, Shoujo, Shounen Ai

Patalliro is the story of the young boy king, Patalliro, and his many
misadventures as he avoids being assassinated by various beautiful boys
with the help of his bodyguard, Major Jack Bancoran, of England's
Information Bureau.
Later they're joined by the hot-blooded Maraich, and a beautiful jealous
and hateful relationship blossoms between him and Bancoran.

*The scanlation group skipped chapter 4 because it had nothing to do
with the main storyline.
**There are no missing chapters. "Patalliro. Stardust Project" goes
instead of chapters 13-14.

So MangaFox is very open about the intended group for the
manga and the type of manga and it does not consider this story to
be yaoi or other sort of gay leaning comic. It is a Shounen Ai
story or about beautiful boys(& men?) which is some of its Shojo
appeal I am sure. It is also action, comedy and mystery which
would give it a wide audience.

I would have to know more about you and what you consider
"gay" to say any more about this comic but I doubt it has much
to do with modern yaoi or boys love comics whether professional
publications or dojinshi.

bliss
Re: Pataliro [message #28520 is a reply to message #28519] Wed, 12 December 2012 20:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sellers is currently offline  sellers
Messages: 1143
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 12/12/2012 04:42 PM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
> On 12/12/2012 02:38 PM, Kenneth M. Lin wrote:

>> http://www.patalliro.com/comics/index.html

>>

>> This one is pure gay stuff, at least according to the title:

>>

>> http://www.patalliro.com/comics/index.html

>>

>> "Kenneth M. Lin" wrote in message

>> news:M9ednX_W-bTvc1XNnZ2dnUVZ5qednZ2d@giganews.com...

>>

>> Has anyone ever read this? I don't think it's ever been published in

>> English but it's the longest-running shojo manga (since 1978) and still

>> going strong.

>>

>> I remember reading this when I was little but totally didn't get the gay

>> theme because I was so young. The story takes place mostly in Europe

>> and I

>> frankly couldn't determine the characters' gender because of strange

>> names

>> and the way they were drawn.

>>

>> It's serialized in magazine aimed for junior-high girls but it's choke

>> full

>> of gay antic and I wonder why it's so accepted. It's definitely the

>> precursor to the modern yaoi/boys love mangas that are popular among

>> mature

>> women in their 20s and 30s but I still don't get it. The sad thing is

>> that

>> the gay aspect is completely unnecessary and it's as the author put it in

>> there for his own pleasure.

>

>

> A bit of Patalliro! is on stoptazmo.com. As for it being gay I think it

> looks more like cute according to the Japanese standards.

>

> And mangafox has some of it too. A lot more. Quoting from

> their description the following.

> PATALLIRO! Manga

> パタリロ!; Patalliro; Patariro!

> Released: Author & Artist Genre(s):

> 1979 Maya Mineo Action, Comedy, Mystery, Shoujo, Shounen Ai

>

> Patalliro is the story of the young boy king, Patalliro, and his many

> misadventures as he avoids being assassinated by various beautiful boys

> with the help of his bodyguard, Major Jack Bancoran, of England's

> Information Bureau.

> Later they're joined by the hot-blooded Maraich, and a beautiful jealous

> and hateful relationship blossoms between him and Bancoran.

>

> *The scanlation group skipped chapter 4 because it had nothing to do

> with the main storyline.

> **There are no missing chapters. "Patalliro. Stardust Project" goes

> instead of chapters 13-14.

>

> So MangaFox is very open about the intended group for the

> manga and the type of manga and it does not consider this story to

> be yaoi or other sort of gay leaning comic. It is a Shounen Ai

> story or about beautiful boys(& men?) which is some of its Shojo

> appeal I am sure. It is also action, comedy and mystery which

> would give it a wide audience.

>

> I would have to know more about you and what you consider

> "gay" to say any more about this comic but I doubt it has much

> to do with modern yaoi or boys love comics whether professional

> publications or dojinshi.

>

> bliss

>

>


Well checking up on Maya Mineo I discovered a lot more
information and apparently there is a lot of gay or bisexual
behavior. As to why it would be tolerated, it presents a
particular view of male gay people in line with societal
stereotypes. Maraich is a male and yet somehow inexplicably
manages to get pregnant twice in the course of the very long
series and produce children. So it suits the Japanese who
have long made gay people into clownish figures for their
amusement. You can see the same sort of stereotyping in
Eroica which I found too offensive to read very much of.
As for my reference to the clown stereotype the
second English volume of Wandering Son aka Housou Mousou
contains a preface or epilogue describing this matter.

bliss
Re: Pataliro [message #28521 is a reply to message #28519] Wed, 12 December 2012 21:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kenneth M. Lin is currently offline  Kenneth M. Lin
Messages: 229
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
"Bobbie Sellers" wrote in message news:kab89u$ok$1@dont-email.me...

On 12/12/2012 02:38 PM, Kenneth M. Lin wrote:
> http://www.patalliro.com/comics/index.html

>

> This one is pure gay stuff, at least according to the title:

>

> http://www.patalliro.com/comics/index.html

>

> "Kenneth M. Lin" wrote in message

> news:M9ednX_W-bTvc1XNnZ2dnUVZ5qednZ2d@giganews.com...

>

> Has anyone ever read this? I don't think it's ever been published in

> English but it's the longest-running shojo manga (since 1978) and still

> going strong.

>

> I remember reading this when I was little but totally didn't get the gay

> theme because I was so young. The story takes place mostly in Europe and I

> frankly couldn't determine the characters' gender because of strange names

> and the way they were drawn.

>

> It's serialized in magazine aimed for junior-high girls but it's choke

> full

> of gay antic and I wonder why it's so accepted. It's definitely the

> precursor to the modern yaoi/boys love mangas that are popular among

> mature

> women in their 20s and 30s but I still don't get it. The sad thing is that

> the gay aspect is completely unnecessary and it's as the author put it in

> there for his own pleasure.



A bit of Patalliro! is on stoptazmo.com. As for it being gay I think
it looks more like cute according to the Japanese standards.

And mangafox has some of it too. A lot more. Quoting from
their description the following.
PATALLIRO! Manga
パタリロ!; Patalliro; Patariro!
Released: Author & Artist Genre(s):
1979 Maya Mineo Action, Comedy, Mystery, Shoujo, Shounen Ai

Patalliro is the story of the young boy king, Patalliro, and his many
misadventures as he avoids being assassinated by various beautiful boys
with the help of his bodyguard, Major Jack Bancoran, of England's
Information Bureau.
Later they're joined by the hot-blooded Maraich, and a beautiful jealous
and hateful relationship blossoms between him and Bancoran.

*The scanlation group skipped chapter 4 because it had nothing to do
with the main storyline.
**There are no missing chapters. "Patalliro. Stardust Project" goes
instead of chapters 13-14.

So MangaFox is very open about the intended group for the
manga and the type of manga and it does not consider this story to
be yaoi or other sort of gay leaning comic. It is a Shounen Ai
story or about beautiful boys(& men?) which is some of its Shojo
appeal I am sure. It is also action, comedy and mystery which
would give it a wide audience.

I would have to know more about you and what you consider
"gay" to say any more about this comic but I doubt it has much
to do with modern yaoi or boys love comics whether professional
publications or dojinshi.

bliss


When I was little and reading my sister's manga, I totally couldn't make any
sense out of what was going on with Maraich and Bancoran. (Bancoran himself
appears to be a parody of Golgo 13. Sort of.) It was not immediately
obvious that Maraich was a boy because of all the male characters have long
hair.

And once I moved to America, I was taught to think of gays as disgusting so
I honestly don't know what to make of Japanese's fascination with gay men.
They are definitely more tolerant because in kabuki theater boys are raised
to play female roles and femine men are quite common in their media. In
contrast, in America gay men are portrayed as "bears" or "leathermen" and
not at all ladylike.

I am just curious as to what a twelve-year-old Japanese girl is supposed to
feel about the gay theme.

I am also currently reading Hen by the creator of Gantz. It also stars
effeminate boy and another boy who (I think) is in love with him. I found
it utterly boring by the sheer ambiguity.
Re: Pataliro [message #28522 is a reply to message #28521] Wed, 12 December 2012 22:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sellers is currently offline  sellers
Messages: 1143
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 12/12/2012 06:18 PM, Kenneth M. Lin wrote:
>

>

> "Bobbie Sellers" wrote in message news:kab89u$ok$1@dont-email.me...

>

> On 12/12/2012 02:38 PM, Kenneth M. Lin wrote:

>> http://www.patalliro.com/comics/index.html

>>

>> This one is pure gay stuff, at least according to the title:

>>

>> http://www.patalliro.com/comics/index.html

>>

>> "Kenneth M. Lin" wrote in message

>> news:M9ednX_W-bTvc1XNnZ2dnUVZ5qednZ2d@giganews.com...

>>

>> Has anyone ever read this? I don't think it's ever been published in

>> English but it's the longest-running shojo manga (since 1978) and still

>> going strong.

>>

>> I remember reading this when I was little but totally didn't get the gay

>> theme because I was so young. The story takes place mostly in Europe

>> and I

>> frankly couldn't determine the characters' gender because of strange

>> names

>> and the way they were drawn.

>>

>> It's serialized in magazine aimed for junior-high girls but it's choke

>> full

>> of gay antic and I wonder why it's so accepted. It's definitely the

>> precursor to the modern yaoi/boys love mangas that are popular among

>> mature

>> women in their 20s and 30s but I still don't get it. The sad thing is

>> that

>> the gay aspect is completely unnecessary and it's as the author put it in

>> there for his own pleasure.

>

>

> A bit of Patalliro! is on stoptazmo.com. As for it being gay I think

> it looks more like cute according to the Japanese standards.

>

> And mangafox has some of it too. A lot more. Quoting from

> their description the following.

> PATALLIRO! Manga

> パタリロ!; Patalliro; Patariro!

> Released: Author & Artist Genre(s):

> 1979 Maya Mineo Action, Comedy, Mystery, Shoujo, Shounen Ai

>

> Patalliro is the story of the young boy king, Patalliro, and his many

> misadventures as he avoids being assassinated by various beautiful boys

> with the help of his bodyguard, Major Jack Bancoran, of England's

> Information Bureau.

> Later they're joined by the hot-blooded Maraich, and a beautiful jealous

> and hateful relationship blossoms between him and Bancoran.

>

> *The scanlation group skipped chapter 4 because it had nothing to do

> with the main storyline.

> **There are no missing chapters. "Patalliro. Stardust Project" goes

> instead of chapters 13-14.

>

> So MangaFox is very open about the intended group for the

> manga and the type of manga and it does not consider this story to

> be yaoi or other sort of gay leaning comic. It is a Shounen Ai

> story or about beautiful boys(& men?) which is some of its Shojo

> appeal I am sure. It is also action, comedy and mystery which

> would give it a wide audience.

>

> I would have to know more about you and what you consider

> "gay" to say any more about this comic but I doubt it has much

> to do with modern yaoi or boys love comics whether professional

> publications or dojinshi.

>

> bliss

>

>

> When I was little and reading my sister's manga, I totally couldn't make

> any sense out of what was going on with Maraich and Bancoran. (Bancoran

> himself appears to be a parody of Golgo 13. Sort of.) It was not

> immediately obvious that Maraich was a boy because of all the male

> characters have long hair.


Well before 1979 when the series appeared long hair on men
who were not musician was more widely accepted. With the addition of
"cute" you explain the cosmetic appearance of the bishounen characters.
And why should a small child be able to make sense of shojo manga?
But the series Patalliro! is strictly for amusement and making sense
of it destroys the humor.

>

> And once I moved to America, I was taught to think of gays as disgusting

> so I honestly don't know what to make of Japanese's fascination with gay

> men. They are definitely more tolerant because in kabuki theater boys

> are raised to play female roles and femine men are quite common in their

> media. In contrast, in America gay men are portrayed as "bears" or

> "leathermen" and not at all ladylike.


Portrayal is one thing and reality is another. The Japanese
love beautiful boys and girls and men who have been trained to portray
such. This may be due to the idea common among some Japanese that
they are not themselves attractive.

In the USA prejudice against gay men especially was very strong
and remains so in many less enlightened communities. This helps the
non-gay feel better about themselves as they have someone to look down
upon. But the facts are that gay men and women too are very involved
for many years in cultural activities and many esteemed artists and
artistes are gay. There is a cultural pendulum effect in which societal
attitudes swing back and forth over the decades.

Most of the gay people I know and have known have been
well off with good jobs and since HIV many have equally attractive
partners. Since I was a nurse in my working life I lost a lot of
friends and acquaintances in the epidemic of the 1980s & 1990s.
They look feminine and masculine just like the rest of the society
according to their tastes and inclinations.

>

> I am just curious as to what a twelve-year-old Japanese girl is supposed

> to feel about the gay theme.


Well she is being told by classical influences that woman are
not equal to men. If she is a fujoshi she fantasizes that the involved
characters in shounen fiction are having relationships which are not
depicted and writes dojin stories about them. Check Fujoshi Rumi
aka "Otaku-Type Delusion Girl" and you will have a better idea of how
they regard the material. In some people it apparently amounts to
a consuming obsession and they pick up on male friendships around them
and amplify the affection they witness into yaoi fantasies. But
while all(?) Japanese school girls may read manga, only a few are
otaku and of that few only some are fujoshi. So I would imagine
that most Japanese readers simply laugh at the antics of the
clownish characters and enjoy them for the sake of the humor.



>

> I am also currently reading Hen by the creator of Gantz. It also stars

> effeminate boy and another boy who (I think) is in love with him. I

> found it utterly boring by the sheer ambiguity.



I will have to look at Hen again which may not be the same Hen
you are talking about as the one I have looked at seems to feature
a girl with extravagantly large mammary appendages. Well I didn't want
to get deep into Hen but which chapter did the boys show up in?
When I was young in the depths of time, boys looked at pin-ups which
are the erotic(hentai) equivalent of the soft core stuff which is
behind Hen and (from the cover of) Gantz. They even painted
in WW II pin-up girls on the noses of bombers and some other aircraft.

But I found the Hen I read for some time to be rather boring
and the longer I read it the less attractive I found the main characters.

bliss
Re: Pataliro [message #28590 is a reply to message #28522] Thu, 13 December 2012 13:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kenneth M. Lin is currently offline  Kenneth M. Lin
Messages: 229
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
"Bobbie Sellers" wrote in message news:kabjpd$lpc$1@dont-email.me...

On 12/12/2012 06:18 PM, Kenneth M. Lin wrote:
>

>

> "Bobbie Sellers" wrote in message news:kab89u$ok$1@dont-email.me...

>

> On 12/12/2012 02:38 PM, Kenneth M. Lin wrote:

>> http://www.patalliro.com/comics/index.html

>>

>> This one is pure gay stuff, at least according to the title:

>>

>> http://www.patalliro.com/comics/index.html

>>

>> "Kenneth M. Lin" wrote in message

>> news:M9ednX_W-bTvc1XNnZ2dnUVZ5qednZ2d@giganews.com...

>>

>> Has anyone ever read this? I don't think it's ever been published in

>> English but it's the longest-running shojo manga (since 1978) and still

>> going strong.

>>

>> I remember reading this when I was little but totally didn't get the gay

>> theme because I was so young. The story takes place mostly in Europe

>> and I

>> frankly couldn't determine the characters' gender because of strange

>> names

>> and the way they were drawn.

>>

>> It's serialized in magazine aimed for junior-high girls but it's choke

>> full

>> of gay antic and I wonder why it's so accepted. It's definitely the

>> precursor to the modern yaoi/boys love mangas that are popular among

>> mature

>> women in their 20s and 30s but I still don't get it. The sad thing is

>> that

>> the gay aspect is completely unnecessary and it's as the author put it in

>> there for his own pleasure.

>

>

> A bit of Patalliro! is on stoptazmo.com. As for it being gay I think

> it looks more like cute according to the Japanese standards.

>

> And mangafox has some of it too. A lot more. Quoting from

> their description the following.

> PATALLIRO! Manga

> パタリロ!; Patalliro; Patariro!

> Released: Author & Artist Genre(s):

> 1979 Maya Mineo Action, Comedy, Mystery, Shoujo, Shounen Ai

>

> Patalliro is the story of the young boy king, Patalliro, and his many

> misadventures as he avoids being assassinated by various beautiful boys

> with the help of his bodyguard, Major Jack Bancoran, of England's

> Information Bureau.

> Later they're joined by the hot-blooded Maraich, and a beautiful jealous

> and hateful relationship blossoms between him and Bancoran.

>

> *The scanlation group skipped chapter 4 because it had nothing to do

> with the main storyline.

> **There are no missing chapters. "Patalliro. Stardust Project" goes

> instead of chapters 13-14.

>

> So MangaFox is very open about the intended group for the

> manga and the type of manga and it does not consider this story to

> be yaoi or other sort of gay leaning comic. It is a Shounen Ai

> story or about beautiful boys(& men?) which is some of its Shojo

> appeal I am sure. It is also action, comedy and mystery which

> would give it a wide audience.

>

> I would have to know more about you and what you consider

> "gay" to say any more about this comic but I doubt it has much

> to do with modern yaoi or boys love comics whether professional

> publications or dojinshi.

>

> bliss

>

>

> When I was little and reading my sister's manga, I totally couldn't make

> any sense out of what was going on with Maraich and Bancoran. (Bancoran

> himself appears to be a parody of Golgo 13. Sort of.) It was not

> immediately obvious that Maraich was a boy because of all the male

> characters have long hair.


Well before 1979 when the series appeared long hair on men
who were not musician was more widely accepted. With the addition of
"cute" you explain the cosmetic appearance of the bishounen characters.
And why should a small child be able to make sense of shojo manga?
But the series Patalliro! is strictly for amusement and making sense
of it destroys the humor.

>

> And once I moved to America, I was taught to think of gays as disgusting

> so I honestly don't know what to make of Japanese's fascination with gay

> men. They are definitely more tolerant because in kabuki theater boys

> are raised to play female roles and femine men are quite common in their

> media. In contrast, in America gay men are portrayed as "bears" or

> "leathermen" and not at all ladylike.


Portrayal is one thing and reality is another. The Japanese
love beautiful boys and girls and men who have been trained to portray
such. This may be due to the idea common among some Japanese that
they are not themselves attractive.

In the USA prejudice against gay men especially was very strong
and remains so in many less enlightened communities. This helps the
non-gay feel better about themselves as they have someone to look down
upon. But the facts are that gay men and women too are very involved
for many years in cultural activities and many esteemed artists and
artistes are gay. There is a cultural pendulum effect in which societal
attitudes swing back and forth over the decades.

Most of the gay people I know and have known have been
well off with good jobs and since HIV many have equally attractive
partners. Since I was a nurse in my working life I lost a lot of
friends and acquaintances in the epidemic of the 1980s & 1990s.
They look feminine and masculine just like the rest of the society
according to their tastes and inclinations.

>

> I am just curious as to what a twelve-year-old Japanese girl is supposed

> to feel about the gay theme.


Well she is being told by classical influences that woman are
not equal to men. If she is a fujoshi she fantasizes that the involved
characters in shounen fiction are having relationships which are not
depicted and writes dojin stories about them. Check Fujoshi Rumi
aka "Otaku-Type Delusion Girl" and you will have a better idea of how
they regard the material. In some people it apparently amounts to
a consuming obsession and they pick up on male friendships around them
and amplify the affection they witness into yaoi fantasies. But
while all(?) Japanese school girls may read manga, only a few are
otaku and of that few only some are fujoshi. So I would imagine
that most Japanese readers simply laugh at the antics of the
clownish characters and enjoy them for the sake of the humor.



>

> I am also currently reading Hen by the creator of Gantz. It also stars

> effeminate boy and another boy who (I think) is in love with him. I

> found it utterly boring by the sheer ambiguity.



I will have to look at Hen again which may not be the same Hen
you are talking about as the one I have looked at seems to feature
a girl with extravagantly large mammary appendages. Well I didn't want
to get deep into Hen but which chapter did the boys show up in?
When I was young in the depths of time, boys looked at pin-ups which
are the erotic(hentai) equivalent of the soft core stuff which is
behind Hen and (from the cover of) Gantz. They even painted
in WW II pin-up girls on the noses of bombers and some other aircraft.

But I found the Hen I read for some time to be rather boring
and the longer I read it the less attractive I found the main characters.

bliss


In Hen, Satou-kun is the effeminate one and Suzuki-kun is the tall boy that
is attracted to him. It's probably the author's early work and not very
coherent or interesting. First of all, they and other characters keep
calling these two "fags" but from I have read so far, I am not sure if that
is the case.

His current work, Gantz is somewhat more interesting in a science-fiction
way but it's also just really drawn out and a "mission" often lasts an
entire volume and I have no ideas where he's going with the whole thing. So
in a sense it's entertaining in an episodic manner but it doesn't feel as
it's progressing toward something.

I wonder what the whole reason behind Japanese manga artists drawing
Japanese people as more "Caucacian" in appearance. In some books I have
read, they'd without hesitation draw other Asians as slanted eyes but keep
themselves looking pretty with big eyes and different hair colors. It
started with Tezuka but it says a lot about how much Japanese have
embraced/envied European culture starting in Meiji era (so as not to become
a colony like China, Vietnam, Cambodia, and other neighbors and started
their own empire.)
Re: Pataliro [message #28680 is a reply to message #28590] Thu, 13 December 2012 18:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sellers is currently offline  sellers
Messages: 1143
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 12/13/2012 10:23 AM, Kenneth M. Lin wrote:
>

>

> "Bobbie Sellers" wrote in message news:kabjpd$lpc$1@dont-email.me...

>

snip
>

>

> In Hen, Satou-kun is the effeminate one and Suzuki-kun is the tall boy that

> is attracted to him. It's probably the author's early work and not very

> coherent or interesting. First of all, they and other characters keep

> calling these two "fags" but from I have read so far, I am not sure if that

> is the case.


I never got to that point,
>

> His current work, Gantz is somewhat more interesting in a science-fiction

> way but it's also just really drawn out and a "mission" often lasts an

> entire volume and I have no ideas where he's going with the whole thing. So

> in a sense it's entertaining in an episodic manner but it doesn't feel as

> it's progressing toward something.


Well don't take the idea of progression toward a definable end point as
important. Take a look at US comics like Superman which keeps
finding ways to continue with no true end to adventures or villians
in sight. Same goes for Batman and most of the superheroes in costume
genre.
>

> I wonder what the whole reason behind Japanese manga artists drawing

> Japanese people as more "Caucacian" in appearance. In some books I have

> read, they'd without hesitation draw other Asians as slanted eyes but keep

> themselves looking pretty with big eyes and different hair colors. It

> started with Tezuka but it says a lot about how much Japanese have

> embraced/envied European culture starting in Meiji era (so as not to become

> a colony like China, Vietnam, Cambodia, and other neighbors and started

> their own empire.)


Ok first of all Japanese manga artist tend to draw all the
good characters in the big-eyed style that they found in the American
comics that were popular before WW II in Japan. Anyone with tiny eyes
is presumed to be less than good. Hair colors are meant to distinguish
between characters. And embracing European knowledge was essential to
escaping the primitive technology they had during the Tokugawa
shogunate. I mean they had no powerful weapons to compare with the
Europeans and Americans. After the US Civil War the weapons were
even more advanced. And the Europeans could scarcely go a generation
without a conflict breaking out and this advanced military science
and technology.
The Japanese government was originally an Empire of Japan.
That is the powerful moved the emperors and empresses out of
communication with the rest of society. In addition the tax exemptions
granted to religious establishments and some nobles ruined the tax
base of the nation. This impoverished the central government
In 1174 or so the Warrior class (Samurai) took control because they
were capable of doing so. First they had battles between the Taira and
the Genji who were families that derived from the Imperial bloodline but
had been given family names and separated from the Imperial court to
take up useful tasks(as the Emperor understood it) in
society including being warriors and the leaders of warriors.
After about the year 1000 these were the people who
pushed the aboriginal people to the North and finally onto
Hokkaido, the northernmost island.
Anyway the Taira first did the Genji down then the
Genji aka Minamoto struck back with a vengeance and suppressed
all of the main Taira clan. Then the leader of the Genji
usually known as Minamoto Yoritomo managed to set up a government
in Kamakura and was awarded the title of Shogun by the Emperor
(who had very little choice). The interesting thing is that
Yoritomo did not want to be in Kyoto because the Imperial
Court's focus on artistic pursuits had weakened the Taira.
After a lot of fighting over who would take power
in the 1600s the Tokugawa emerged as the indisputable rulers
and brought the rest of the local (samurai) lords to heel.
In the 1800s the rest of the world was very curious
about Japan and trade was expanding so the Black Ships of the
USA pushed themselves on Japan by force majeur. This caused
incredible upset to Japanese society. Taking advantage of this
the plutocrats of former samurai lords overthrew the Tokugawa
and raised the young Emperor (called Meji after death) to be the
figurehead of their modernizing nation. And they treated the
common people very badly during this period.
So for about 700 years the nation was an Empire
only in name but a military dictatorship in practice.
Now the oligarchy of the plutocrats who were the
true rulers began to create a colonial empire. Following
Meji the Emperor was very weak so Hirohito his brother?
was made his regent. The Japanese were not taken too
seriously by the European colonial empires and despite
Japan having beaten certain groups during WW I refused
to let Japan take possession of land held by Germans
and the like. This caused the Japanese to grant more
power to the military and to the industrial combines
that lead to WW II. After the restoration of Imperial
rule, the rulers had suppressed Buddhism as an imported
religion and elevated Shinto to a State religion which
taught that the Japanese were a semi-divine race and
the Emperor was the Sun Goddess direct descendant
and so empowered by her to rule the Earth. In addition
the military was taught a particularly brutal version
of bushido the codified rules the Samurai had lived by.
And you have to read a lot of manga to
cover all the ways the Japanese have portrayed themselves
in art. You might look at the work of Yoshino Tatsumi
especially the biographical "a Drifting Life" about
the development of the author as a manga artist,
He has lots of other work that depicts Japan
after wW II in a raw and brutal style. But if you
want a good story find Ashita no Joe aka Tomorrow's
Joe and look at the depiction therein. This is on
Stoptazmo.com and may be in other places and it is
a grim tale of a driven boxer.

Pretty tired now and I have errands yet to
run.
bliss
Re: Pataliro [message #28681 is a reply to message #28680] Thu, 13 December 2012 19:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kenneth M. Lin is currently offline  Kenneth M. Lin
Messages: 229
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
"Bobbie Sellers" wrote in message news:kadn3m$cbh$1@dont-email.me...

On 12/13/2012 10:23 AM, Kenneth M. Lin wrote:
>

>

> "Bobbie Sellers" wrote in message news:kabjpd$lpc$1@dont-email.me...

>

snip
>

>

> In Hen, Satou-kun is the effeminate one and Suzuki-kun is the tall boy

> that

> is attracted to him. It's probably the author's early work and not very

> coherent or interesting. First of all, they and other characters keep

> calling these two "fags" but from I have read so far, I am not sure if

> that

> is the case.


I never got to that point,
>

> His current work, Gantz is somewhat more interesting in a science-fiction

> way but it's also just really drawn out and a "mission" often lasts an

> entire volume and I have no ideas where he's going with the whole thing.

> So

> in a sense it's entertaining in an episodic manner but it doesn't feel as

> it's progressing toward something.


Well don't take the idea of progression toward a definable end point as
important. Take a look at US comics like Superman which keeps
finding ways to continue with no true end to adventures or villians
in sight. Same goes for Batman and most of the superheroes in costume
genre.
>

> I wonder what the whole reason behind Japanese manga artists drawing

> Japanese people as more "Caucacian" in appearance. In some books I have

> read, they'd without hesitation draw other Asians as slanted eyes but keep

> themselves looking pretty with big eyes and different hair colors. It

> started with Tezuka but it says a lot about how much Japanese have

> embraced/envied European culture starting in Meiji era (so as not to

> become

> a colony like China, Vietnam, Cambodia, and other neighbors and started

> their own empire.)


Ok first of all Japanese manga artist tend to draw all the
good characters in the big-eyed style that they found in the American
comics that were popular before WW II in Japan. Anyone with tiny eyes
is presumed to be less than good. Hair colors are meant to distinguish
between characters. And embracing European knowledge was essential to
escaping the primitive technology they had during the Tokugawa
shogunate. I mean they had no powerful weapons to compare with the
Europeans and Americans. After the US Civil War the weapons were
even more advanced. And the Europeans could scarcely go a generation
without a conflict breaking out and this advanced military science
and technology.
The Japanese government was originally an Empire of Japan.
That is the powerful moved the emperors and empresses out of
communication with the rest of society. In addition the tax exemptions
granted to religious establishments and some nobles ruined the tax
base of the nation. This impoverished the central government
In 1174 or so the Warrior class (Samurai) took control because they
were capable of doing so. First they had battles between the Taira and
the Genji who were families that derived from the Imperial bloodline but
had been given family names and separated from the Imperial court to
take up useful tasks(as the Emperor understood it) in
society including being warriors and the leaders of warriors.
After about the year 1000 these were the people who
pushed the aboriginal people to the North and finally onto
Hokkaido, the northernmost island.
Anyway the Taira first did the Genji down then the
Genji aka Minamoto struck back with a vengeance and suppressed
all of the main Taira clan. Then the leader of the Genji
usually known as Minamoto Yoritomo managed to set up a government
in Kamakura and was awarded the title of Shogun by the Emperor
(who had very little choice). The interesting thing is that
Yoritomo did not want to be in Kyoto because the Imperial
Court's focus on artistic pursuits had weakened the Taira.
After a lot of fighting over who would take power
in the 1600s the Tokugawa emerged as the indisputable rulers
and brought the rest of the local (samurai) lords to heel.
In the 1800s the rest of the world was very curious
about Japan and trade was expanding so the Black Ships of the
USA pushed themselves on Japan by force majeur. This caused
incredible upset to Japanese society. Taking advantage of this
the plutocrats of former samurai lords overthrew the Tokugawa
and raised the young Emperor (called Meji after death) to be the
figurehead of their modernizing nation. And they treated the
common people very badly during this period.
So for about 700 years the nation was an Empire
only in name but a military dictatorship in practice.
Now the oligarchy of the plutocrats who were the
true rulers began to create a colonial empire. Following
Meji the Emperor was very weak so Hirohito his brother?
was made his regent. The Japanese were not taken too
seriously by the European colonial empires and despite
Japan having beaten certain groups during WW I refused
to let Japan take possession of land held by Germans
and the like. This caused the Japanese to grant more
power to the military and to the industrial combines
that lead to WW II. After the restoration of Imperial
rule, the rulers had suppressed Buddhism as an imported
religion and elevated Shinto to a State religion which
taught that the Japanese were a semi-divine race and
the Emperor was the Sun Goddess direct descendant
and so empowered by her to rule the Earth. In addition
the military was taught a particularly brutal version
of bushido the codified rules the Samurai had lived by.
And you have to read a lot of manga to
cover all the ways the Japanese have portrayed themselves
in art. You might look at the work of Yoshino Tatsumi
especially the biographical "a Drifting Life" about
the development of the author as a manga artist,
He has lots of other work that depicts Japan
after wW II in a raw and brutal style. But if you
want a good story find Ashita no Joe aka Tomorrow's
Joe and look at the depiction therein. This is on
Stoptazmo.com and may be in other places and it is
a grim tale of a driven boxer.

Pretty tired now and I have errands yet to
run.
bliss

Now that you are talking about feudal time, have you ever read Azumi by
Koyama Yu? It's about a mixed-race girl who was raised to be an assassin
around the time Tokugawa Iyeyasu gained control of entire Japan. With
estimated 200,000 former samurais out of work now that the conflicts are
over and roaning around as ronins or bandits, it probably wasn't a fun time
to be the peasants. This manga was very graphic and didn't shy away from
depicting how terrible things used to be for those who didn't carry a sword.

Yeah, American comics are in perpetual "status quo" where everything reverts
back to original premise. DC just relaunched their entire line less than
two years ago and it was 1985 when they merged all of their multiverses into
one. What's surprising is that neither DC nor Marvel were able to come up
with new viable characters after the so-called Silver Age and must recycle
same company-owned characters years after years.

In contrast, a manga series is often a work of single individual. The
aforementioned Pataliro has been around since 1978. Many such works began
when the authors were in their early 20s and you literally get to see how
they evolve and mature as storytellers. Considering that most series are
published on a weekly basis (approx. 80 pages a month), it's truly
remarkable that they could stick it out for so long.
Re: Pataliro [message #28909 is a reply to message #28681] Sat, 15 December 2012 19:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sellers is currently offline  sellers
Messages: 1143
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 12/13/2012 04:24 PM, Kenneth M. Lin wrote:
>

>

snip of my stumbling verbiage.
>

> Now that you are talking about feudal time, have you ever read Azumi by

> Koyama Yu? It's about a mixed-race girl who was raised to be an assassin

> around the time Tokugawa Iyeyasu gained control of entire Japan. With

> estimated 200,000 former samurais out of work now that the conflicts are

> over and roaning around as ronins or bandits, it probably wasn't a fun

> time to be the peasants. This manga was very graphic and didn't shy away

> from depicting how terrible things used to be for those who didn't carry

> a sword.


I have not read Azumi but have you read Satsuma Gishiden
A brutal tale of the samurai of the outside province which is sent
to do manual labor in flood control by the Tokugawa. Real historical
horror story. Only got 3 volumes in English unfortunately.
Then there is Yagyu Ninja Scrolls which is again a horror
story and somewhat historical.
There is a tale too of Ieyasu Tokugawa's private ninjas but
it became and excuse to show the great unifier unifying with wives
and mistresses. And never forget the big long story of the Shogun's
disgraced executioner who wanders the roads of Japan hiring out
to do vengeance on the oppressors.

>

> Yeah, American comics are in perpetual "status quo" where everything

> reverts back to original premise. DC just relaunched their entire line

> less than two years ago and it was 1985 when they merged all of their

> multiverses into one. What's surprising is that neither DC nor Marvel

> were able to come up with new viable characters after the so-called

> Silver Age and must recycle same company-owned characters years after

> years.


This is sort of like the time in the stories of the world under
the hill as in the story of Thomas the Rhymer who spends a year with
the faery queen and returns much later to find his family dead and
himself mourned for many years.
But the money men in the USA took control of the classic
comic characters long ago and they refuse to let the cash cow die.

>

> In contrast, a manga series is often a work of single individual. The

> aforementioned Pataliro has been around since 1978. Many such works

> began when the authors were in their early 20s and you literally get to

> see how they evolve and mature as storytellers. Considering that most

> series are published on a weekly basis (approx. 80 pages a month), it's

> truly remarkable that they could stick it out for so long.


Well I feel that the best are really the monthly manga which don't
suffer from the tight deadlines. I see lots of former weekly
series that run to chapters of 10 pages or so. They seldom get much
done in a 10 page chapter.

People like Rumiko Takahashi do their best work in the shorter
series and short stories as found in the anthology. But their
creativity is enough that they can spin out a much longer tale once
the audience is assured.

Well enjoy your reading. I am waiting on the next scanalation
of Genshiken to be released and it will be only about 28 pages.

Now I have to get my laundry from the washer in the basement.

So later Kenneth.

bliss
Re: Pataliro [message #29035 is a reply to message #28909] Sun, 16 December 2012 21:45 Go to previous message
Kenneth M. Lin is currently offline  Kenneth M. Lin
Messages: 229
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
"Bobbie Sellers" wrote in message news:kaj4kj$kr$1@dont-email.me...

On 12/13/2012 04:24 PM, Kenneth M. Lin wrote:
>

>

snip of my stumbling verbiage.
>

> Now that you are talking about feudal time, have you ever read Azumi by

> Koyama Yu? It's about a mixed-race girl who was raised to be an assassin

> around the time Tokugawa Iyeyasu gained control of entire Japan. With

> estimated 200,000 former samurais out of work now that the conflicts are

> over and roaning around as ronins or bandits, it probably wasn't a fun

> time to be the peasants. This manga was very graphic and didn't shy away

> from depicting how terrible things used to be for those who didn't carry

> a sword.


I have not read Azumi but have you read Satsuma Gishiden
A brutal tale of the samurai of the outside province which is sent
to do manual labor in flood control by the Tokugawa. Real historical
horror story. Only got 3 volumes in English unfortunately.
Then there is Yagyu Ninja Scrolls which is again a horror
story and somewhat historical.
There is a tale too of Ieyasu Tokugawa's private ninjas but
it became and excuse to show the great unifier unifying with wives
and mistresses. And never forget the big long story of the Shogun's
disgraced executioner who wanders the roads of Japan hiring out
to do vengeance on the oppressors.

>

> Yeah, American comics are in perpetual "status quo" where everything

> reverts back to original premise. DC just relaunched their entire line

> less than two years ago and it was 1985 when they merged all of their

> multiverses into one. What's surprising is that neither DC nor Marvel

> were able to come up with new viable characters after the so-called

> Silver Age and must recycle same company-owned characters years after

> years.


This is sort of like the time in the stories of the world under
the hill as in the story of Thomas the Rhymer who spends a year with
the faery queen and returns much later to find his family dead and
himself mourned for many years.
But the money men in the USA took control of the classic
comic characters long ago and they refuse to let the cash cow die.

>

> In contrast, a manga series is often a work of single individual. The

> aforementioned Pataliro has been around since 1978. Many such works

> began when the authors were in their early 20s and you literally get to

> see how they evolve and mature as storytellers. Considering that most

> series are published on a weekly basis (approx. 80 pages a month), it's

> truly remarkable that they could stick it out for so long.


Well I feel that the best are really the monthly manga which don't
suffer from the tight deadlines. I see lots of former weekly
series that run to chapters of 10 pages or so. They seldom get much
done in a 10 page chapter.

People like Rumiko Takahashi do their best work in the shorter
series and short stories as found in the anthology. But their
creativity is enough that they can spin out a much longer tale once
the audience is assured.

Well enjoy your reading. I am waiting on the next scanalation
of Genshiken to be released and it will be only about 28 pages.

Now I have to get my laundry from the washer in the basement.

So later Kenneth.

bliss

Saturday Kinokuniya SF held their annual back-issue magazine sale and I
managed to pick up some random manga magazines for two dollars each. You
wouldn't believe how much ten of those things weighs as they are the size of
phone books. On top of that it was raining. The picking were slim and I
didn't find any mainstream magazines with titles that begin with "Shonen"
but I grabbed enough to keep me entertained for the remainder of the year.
Thanks to weak dollar, I seldom shop at Kinokuniya and must resort to
finding used books.

Nowaday there are seldom any manga artist that can hold down more than one
weekly serial and many often take hiatus. Still, there are quite a few
titles that surpassed 100 volumes and still going strong. If it's a weekly
serial, it'd take at least twenty years to get that far.
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