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Top or bottom posting; does it really matter? [message #411300] Sun, 26 September 2021 15:51 Go to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: gareth evans

In groups.io, a similar facility to usenet, top posting predominates.

But both fora are plagued by over-quoting so anyone following a
thread sees the same tedious repetition ad nauseam.

For me, if I open any article and all I can see is quoted
material disappearing off the bottom of he page, then I
skip over it.
Re: Top or bottom posting; does it really matter? [message #411301 is a reply to message #411300] Sun, 26 September 2021 16:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Grant Taylor

On 9/26/21 1:51 PM, gareth evans wrote:
> Top or bottom posting; does it really matter?

Yes, netiquette still matters.

Netiquette is independent of online medium.



--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
Re: Top or bottom posting; does it really matter? [message #411302 is a reply to message #411300] Sun, 26 September 2021 16:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
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On Sun, 26 Sep 2021 20:51:37 +0100
gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:

> In groups.io, a similar facility to usenet, top posting predominates.

It is common politeness, when joining a group, to adopt the
conventions of that group, it is a joy when those conventions are also
sensible and a minor burden when they are not.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Top or bottom posting; does it really matter? [message #411303 is a reply to message #411302] Mon, 27 September 2021 00:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike Spencer is currently offline  Mike Spencer
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Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:

> On Sun, 26 Sep 2021 20:51:37 +0100
> gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> In groups.io, a similar facility to usenet, top posting predominates.
>
> It is common politeness, when joining a group, to adopt the
> conventions of that group, it is a joy when those conventions are also
> sensible and a minor burden when they are not.

Just so. I occasionally top-post when a previous post may be needed
for reference but my own contribution is essentially stand-alone and
not in the nature of conversation. This appears to be common in
business email where I find it workable and correct -- at worst a
"minor burden".

Most Usenet posts are more or less in the nature of conversation so
top-posting is a stumbling block as is massive quoting -- failure to
trim -- when responding to some small element of a previous post.


--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
Re: Top or bottom posting; does it really matter? [message #411305 is a reply to message #411303] Mon, 27 September 2021 01:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Grant Taylor

On 9/26/21 10:41 PM, Mike Spencer wrote:
> I occasionally top-post when a previous post may be needed
> for reference but my own contribution is essentially stand-alone
> and not in the nature of conversation. This appears to be common
> in business email where I find it workable and correct -- at worst a
> "minor burden".

Why would you ever reply to a message / thread with something that's
stand-alone as opposed to starting a new thread?

Your logic makes sense. But I don't understand why you would be in the
situation you describe.



--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
Re: Top or bottom posting; does it really matter? [message #411306 is a reply to message #411305] Mon, 27 September 2021 03:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Quadibloc is currently offline  Quadibloc
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On Sunday, September 26, 2021 at 11:54:19 PM UTC-6, Grant Taylor wrote:
> On 9/26/21 10:41 PM, Mike Spencer wrote:
>> I occasionally top-post when a previous post may be needed
>> for reference but my own contribution is essentially stand-alone
>> and not in the nature of conversation. This appears to be common
>> in business email where I find it workable and correct -- at worst a
>> "minor burden".
> Why would you ever reply to a message / thread with something that's
> stand-alone as opposed to starting a new thread?
>
> Your logic makes sense. But I don't understand why you would be in the
> situation you describe.

I agree with his logic. I could see the situation emerging where the
quoted post is being used as reference material rather than one
directly replying to it.

John Savard
Re: Top or bottom posting; does it really matter? [message #411307 is a reply to message #411301] Mon, 27 September 2021 04:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: gareth evans

Netiquette is not etiquette.

Perhaps those who take offence so easily over
such a trivial matter were the prototype
woke generation?

Wherever the new material is placed, whether at the
top or the bottom (or both, in this case) you get
to read it and assimilate its intelligence, so
why have an emotional reaction in addition?

On 26/09/2021 21:20, Grant Taylor wrote:
> On 9/26/21 1:51 PM, gareth evans wrote:
>> Top or bottom posting; does it really matter?
>
> Yes, netiquette still matters.
>
> Netiquette is independent of online medium.

Netiquette is not etiquette.

Perhaps those who take offence so easily over
such a trivial matter were the prototype
woke generation?

Wherever the new material is placed, whether at the
top or the bottom (or both, in this case) you get
to read it and assimilate its intelligence, so
why have an emotional reaction in addition?
Re: Top or bottom posting; does it really matter? [message #411308 is a reply to message #411302] Mon, 27 September 2021 05:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: gareth evans

But are conventions determined by historical
personages some of whom are long dead, or do
the later contributors also have a say in what is a convention?



On 26/09/2021 21:44, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Sep 2021 20:51:37 +0100
> gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> In groups.io, a similar facility to usenet, top posting predominates.
>
> It is common politeness, when joining a group, to adopt the
> conventions of that group, it is a joy when those conventions are also
> sensible and a minor burden when they are not.
>

But are conventions determined by historical
personages some of whom are long dead, or do
the later contributors also have a say in what is a convention?
Re: Top or bottom posting; does it really matter? [message #411309 is a reply to message #411308] Mon, 27 September 2021 06:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
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On Mon, 27 Sep 2021 10:00:40 +0100
gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On 26/09/2021 21:44, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>> On Sun, 26 Sep 2021 20:51:37 +0100
>> gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> In groups.io, a similar facility to usenet, top posting predominates.
>>
>> It is common politeness, when joining a group, to adopt the
>> conventions of that group, it is a joy when those conventions are also
>> sensible and a minor burden when they are not.
>>
>
> But are conventions determined by historical
> personages some of whom are long dead, or do
> the later contributors also have a say in what is a convention?

The origins of conventions are generally obscured by time, even when
everyone involved is present they can be difficult to pin down, whatever
documentation may remain is usually only a thin remnant of the original
discussions and thinking. Once established they tend to have enormous
inertia by virtue of group acceptance and tend only to change if pretty much
everyone finds them irksome.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Top or bottom posting; does it really matter? [message #411313 is a reply to message #411307] Mon, 27 September 2021 11:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
D.J. is currently offline  D.J.
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On Mon, 27 Sep 2021 09:58:58 +0100, gareth evans
<headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Netiquette is not etiquette.
>

In a way, yes it is. But then again, I always felt Emily Post was a
bit off in her head.
Re: Top or bottom posting; does it really matter? [message #411314 is a reply to message #411303] Mon, 27 September 2021 13:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Arne Luft is currently offline  Arne Luft
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On 2021-09-27 00:41, Mike Spencer wrote (in part):
> Most Usenet posts are more or less in the nature of conversation so
> top-posting is a stumbling block as is massive quoting -- failure to
> trim -- when responding to some small element of a previous post.

Indeed, trying to follow a conversation with top-posting inserted in
bottom-posting (not to mention responses that do not clearly dilineate
previous posts) can give me headaches.

N.
Re: Top or bottom posting; does it really matter? [message #411317 is a reply to message #411307] Mon, 27 September 2021 15:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
John Levine is currently offline  John Levine
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I always attributed it to having too much free time, e.g.:

https://xkcd.com/386/


According to gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com>:
> Netiquette is not etiquette.
>
> Perhaps those who take offence so easily over
> such a trivial matter were the prototype
> woke generation?
--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
Re: Top or bottom posting; does it really matter? [message #411318 is a reply to message #411300] Mon, 27 September 2021 16:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: gareth evans

I don't object to being in the killfiles of small-minded
Usenet wokes.


On 27/09/2021 20:35, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Sep 2021 20:51:37 +0100, gareth evans wrote:
>>
>> In groups.io, a similar facility to usenet, top posting predominates.
>
> Probably in comp.* or alt.*. If you top post in de.* (you also need to
> write in German for that) they roast you. Not just politely replying like
> here. If you don't comply by day 3 or 4 you'll end up in about
> everybody's killfile.

I don't object to being in the killfiles of small-minded
Usenet wokes.
Re: Top or bottom posting; does it really matter? [message #411320 is a reply to message #411318] Mon, 27 September 2021 19:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
D.J. is currently offline  D.J.
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On Mon, 27 Sep 2021 21:34:36 +0100, gareth evans
<headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I don't object to being in the killfiles of small-minded
> Usenet wokes.
>
>
> On 27/09/2021 20:35, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>> On Sun, 26 Sep 2021 20:51:37 +0100, gareth evans wrote:
>>>
>>> In groups.io, a similar facility to usenet, top posting predominates.
>>
>> Probably in comp.* or alt.*. If you top post in de.* (you also need to
>> write in German for that) they roast you. Not just politely replying like
>> here. If you don't comply by day 3 or 4 you'll end up in about
>> everybody's killfile.
>
> I don't object to being in the killfiles of small-minded
> Usenet wokes.

Woke basically means your head isn't inserted into your buttocks.
Re: Top or bottom posting; does it really matter? [message #411321 is a reply to message #411305] Mon, 27 September 2021 19:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike Spencer is currently offline  Mike Spencer
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Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> writes:

> On 9/26/21 10:41 PM, Mike Spencer wrote:
>
>> I occasionally top-post when a previous post may be needed
>> for reference but my own contribution is essentially stand-alone
>> and not in the nature of conversation. This appears to be common
>> in business email where I find it workable and correct -- at worst a
>> "minor burden".
>
> Why would you ever reply to a message / thread with something that's
> stand-alone as opposed to starting a new thread?
>
> Your logic makes sense. But I don't understand why you would be in the
> situation you describe.

Off the top of my head, without trying to get deep or analytical...

"That reminds me of a story..."

Connected, probably on-topic but not sequential.

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
Re: Top or bottom posting; does it really matter? [message #411322 is a reply to message #411309] Mon, 27 September 2021 20:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike Spencer is currently offline  Mike Spencer
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Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:

> On Mon, 27 Sep 2021 10:00:40 +0100
> gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> But are conventions determined by historical
>> personages some of whom are long dead, or do
>> the later contributors also have a say in what is a convention?
>
> The origins of conventions are generally obscured by time, even when
> everyone involved is present they can be difficult to pin down, whatever
> documentation may remain is usually only a thin remnant of the original
> discussions and thinking. Once established they tend to have enormous
> inertia by virtue of group acceptance and tend only to change if pretty much
> everyone finds them irksome.

Circa 1972, I visited the celebrated Dauphinee Block Shop in
Lunenburg, NS. Three-storey frame building with flat-belt-driven
machinery that made the whole building vibrate.

In the cellar they had a blacksmith shop and that day the smith
was making hooks for attachment to fairly large tackle blocks. He had
several dozen half done and was making the eye by splitting the end of
the iron stock, wrapping the split ends around a mandrel and
forge-welding them shut.

I asked why he was doing it that way as I would have punched or
slot-punched a hole and opened it to desired size, stronger and less
error prone.

"It's stronger that way" was his answer. As I was a young novice
smith and he was a middle-aged career smith, I didn't argue but I
didn't get it.

It was years later, looking at a buoy bell clapper salvaged from
Boston Harbor, that it dawned on me. When Dauphinee's was
established, wrought iron was the article of trade used for anything
"iron". Wrought iron has a grain resembling wood grain. Its
structure is anisotropic. You never [1] make a wrought iron structural
element with a hole under tension near the end of a bar for the same
reason that you don't do that with a 1" pine or oak board; it stresses
the area around the hole in its weakest direction.

Modern "iron" is more properly called "mild steel" and, unlike wrought
iron, it is for practical purposes isotropic.

Dauphinee's had been making tackle since before Bessemer and open
hearth replaced wrought iron with mild steel as the standard article
of commerce. They'd settled, correctly, on the way to make a tension
eye at the end of an iron rod circa 1850 and had been passing that
wisdom on for 120 years.

[1] Never say never. The reason the buoy bell clapper [2] caught my
eye was that it was so corroded that I could plainly see the grain
of the wrought iron from which it was forged. The smith had in
fact punched the eye near the end of the stock but had then forge
welded a strip of iron across the end where it might tear out with
the grain of the strip at right angles to that of the clapper and
thus orthogonal to the direction of tension.

[2] Harold Edgerton collection, MIT.

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
Re: Top or bottom posting; does it really matter? [message #411325 is a reply to message #411320] Mon, 27 September 2021 21:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Mon, 27 Sep 2021 18:24:08 -0500, D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Mon, 27 Sep 2021 21:34:36 +0100, gareth evans
> <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> I don't object to being in the killfiles of small-minded
>> Usenet wokes.
>>
>>
>> On 27/09/2021 20:35, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>>> On Sun, 26 Sep 2021 20:51:37 +0100, gareth evans wrote:
>>>>
>>>> In groups.io, a similar facility to usenet, top posting predominates.
>>>
>>> Probably in comp.* or alt.*. If you top post in de.* (you also need to
>>> write in German for that) they roast you. Not just politely replying like
>>> here. If you don't comply by day 3 or 4 you'll end up in about
>>> everybody's killfile.
>>
>> I don't object to being in the killfiles of small-minded
>> Usenet wokes.
>
> Woke basically means your head isn't inserted into your buttocks.

This is true, woke means that your buttocks have descended around your
head.
Re: Top or bottom posting; does it really matter? [message #411327 is a reply to message #411321] Tue, 28 September 2021 02:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Grant Taylor

On 9/27/21 5:25 PM, Mike Spencer wrote:
> Off the top of my head, without trying to get deep or analytical...
>
> "That reminds me of a story..."
>
> Connected, probably on-topic but not sequential.

As someone who makes extensive use of threading -- as in I will link and
unlink threads -- I have always tried to keep threaded replies as part
of the same conversation.

I've occasionally drafted new messages ~> new threads with very similar
subjects and starting a new topic. E.g.

--8<--
Subject: format=flowed

On 9/27/21 5:25 PM, Mike Spencer wrote:
> Connected, probably on-topic but not sequential.

Speaking of top or bottom posting, what do you think about format=flowed
vs fixed width?
-->8--

I don't know if this speaks to Quadibloc's comment about "reference" or
not. Reference seems like something specific and distinctly different
than simply "speaking of <topic>, who's run into <problem> with <topic>?
type thing.



--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
Re: Top or bottom posting; does it really matter? [message #411328 is a reply to message #411321] Tue, 28 September 2021 02:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charles Richmond is currently offline  Charles Richmond
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On 9/27/2021 6:25 PM, Mike Spencer wrote:
> Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> writes:
>
>> On 9/26/21 10:41 PM, Mike Spencer wrote:
>>
>>> I occasionally top-post when a previous post may be needed
>>> for reference but my own contribution is essentially stand-alone
>>> and not in the nature of conversation. This appears to be common
>>> in business email where I find it workable and correct -- at worst a
>>> "minor burden".
>>
>> Why would you ever reply to a message / thread with something that's
>> stand-alone as opposed to starting a new thread?
>>
>> Your logic makes sense. But I don't understand why you would be in the
>> situation you describe.
>
> Off the top of my head, without trying to get deep or analytical...
>
> "That reminds me of a story..."
>
> Connected, probably on-topic but not sequential.
>

The name of this group contains the word:

*folklore*

"That reminds me of a story..." seems an adequate reason for topic drift
in this group.

--

Charles Richmond

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Re: Top or bottom posting; does it really matter? [message #411329 is a reply to message #411308] Tue, 28 September 2021 02:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charles Richmond is currently offline  Charles Richmond
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> On 26/09/2021 21:44, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>> On Sun, 26 Sep 2021 20:51:37 +0100
>> gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> In groups.io, a similar facility to usenet, top posting predominates.
>>
>>     It is common politeness, when joining a group, to adopt the
>> conventions of that group, it is a joy when those conventions are also
>> sensible and a minor burden when they are not.
>>
>
> But are conventions determined by historical
> personages some of whom are long dead, or do
> the later contributors also have a say in what is a convention?
>
Historically (and probably now), the members of a group decide who
should be allowed to post. Each person's newsreader software allowed a
list of addresses to be maintained... and would automatically discard
messages from that address. If the majority of members of a group had
your address on their "discard" list, effectively you were kept out.

(There is a name for that "discard" list... but I can not remember it
now...)

Some "official" groups (not "alt.*" groups) are moderated by an "admin",
and you have to be officially admitted to the group by that admin.


--

Charles Richmond

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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Re: Top or bottom posting; does it really matter? [message #411332 is a reply to message #411307] Tue, 28 September 2021 09:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
usenet is currently offline  usenet
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On Mon, 27 Sep 2021 09:58:58 +0100, gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Netiquette is not etiquette.

It certainly is. It is a branch of etiquette that deals specifically with
online communications.

> Perhaps those who take offence so easily over
> such a trivial matter were the prototype
> woke generation?

I dispute your assertion; it is not trivial.


> Wherever the new material is placed, whether at the
> top or the bottom (or both, in this case) you get
> to read it and assimilate its intelligence, so
> why have an emotional reaction in addition?

Layout matters, viz:

https://keepmeme.com/meme/you-matter-dont-give-up-or-you-don t-matter-give-up


Every so often some pedant comes along and advances the argument that some part
of estabilished etiquette, for example, shop clerks asking "how are you" or
wishing you a nice day -- to say nothing of "please" and "thank you" -- are
superfluous and unnecessary because they convey no information and are just some
outdated, arbitrary convention, and thus can be discarded. They ignore that,
among other things, these phrases actually provide useful functions: they can
reveal intentions, set expectations, and generally establish a framework for
successful transactions between strangers. You might think of them as verbal
lubricant, or liken them to a computer protocol that allows two hetrogeneous
computers to exchange data. Be it place settings, wedding invitations, or some
other etiquette matter, the same tired arguments regarding their irrelevance
are made periodically, and same valid refutations are made in return.

And so it is with netiquette, and most frequently, the top/bottom posting issue.
That horse is long dead, beaten into a grease spot, and even the bones are
turning to dust. The overwhelming consensus is that bottom posting and
judicious trimming of long posts is the proper course. Exceptions are rare,
and continued top posting marks one as a newbie or a self-declared iconoclast
who thinks they are championing reason, freedom, or some other abstraction.
But they are just ignorant, or being selfish and childish. They tilt at
windmills in their mind.
Re: Top or bottom posting; does it really matter? [message #411336 is a reply to message #411325] Tue, 28 September 2021 09:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
usenet is currently offline  usenet
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On Mon, 27 Sep 2021 21:45:47 -0400, J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Sep 2021 18:24:08 -0500, D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> On 27/09/2021 20:35, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 26 Sep 2021 20:51:37 +0100, gareth evans wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > In groups.io, a similar facility to usenet, top posting predominates.
>>>>
>>>> Probably in comp.* or alt.*. If you top post in de.* (you also need to
>>>> write in German for that) they roast you. Not just politely replying like
>>>> here. If you don't comply by day 3 or 4 you'll end up in about
>>>> everybody's killfile.
>>>
>>> I don't object to being in the killfiles of small-minded
>>> Usenet wokes.
>>
>> Woke basically means your head isn't inserted into your buttocks.
>
> This is true, woke means that your buttocks have descended around your
> head.

Unfortunately, the term "woke" is being smeared by conservatives, and there's
not clear clear consensus on what it means to liberals. That being said, what's
wrong with treating people of different sexual orientations, or racial and
cultural backgrounds, with the basic respect due any human being? What's wrong
with addressing people in the manner they wish to be addressed? What's wrong
with being upset at humor made at the expense of people in some minority, or
that perpetuates negative stereotypes? What's wrong with condeming statements
that belittle or denigrate others?

It seems to me that not all, but most of the people complaining about "wokeness"
are upset at being called out for acting like an asshole.
Re: Top or bottom posting; does it really matter? [message #411339 is a reply to message #411320] Tue, 28 September 2021 12:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
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D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Sep 2021 21:34:36 +0100, gareth evans
> <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> I don't object to being in the killfiles of small-minded
>> Usenet wokes.
>>
>>
>> On 27/09/2021 20:35, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>>> On Sun, 26 Sep 2021 20:51:37 +0100, gareth evans wrote:
>>>>
>>>> In groups.io, a similar facility to usenet, top posting predominates.
>>>
>>> Probably in comp.* or alt.*. If you top post in de.* (you also need to
>>> write in German for that) they roast you. Not just politely replying like
>>> here. If you don't comply by day 3 or 4 you'll end up in about
>>> everybody's killfile.
>>
>> I don't object to being in the killfiles of small-minded
>> Usenet wokes.
>
> Woke basically means your head isn't inserted into your buttocks.
>

Or more likely the opposite.

--
Pete
Re: Top or bottom posting; does it really matter? [message #411340 is a reply to message #411336] Tue, 28 September 2021 13:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
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On Tue, 28 Sep 2021 13:12:17 GMT
usenet@only.tnx (Questor) wrote:

> Unfortunately, the term "woke" is being smeared by conservatives, and
> there's not clear clear consensus on what it means to liberals. That
> being said, what's wrong with treating people of different sexual
> orientations, or racial and cultural backgrounds, with the basic respect
> due any human being? What's wrong with addressing people in the manner
> they wish to be addressed? What's wrong with being upset at humor made
> at the expense of people in some minority, or that perpetuates negative
> stereotypes? What's wrong with condeming statements that belittle or
> denigrate others?

Nothing is wrong with any of that IMHO - my father would have
disagreed with me on several points.

> It seems to me that not all, but most of the people complaining about
> "wokeness" are upset at being called out for acting like an asshole.

I think it is the "holier than thou" attitude of many users of the
term rather than the principles themselves. As a child of the sixties I do
find it perplexing the extent to which youngsters today seem to think
they invented tolerance but hey the old beatniks probably thought similar
things about us.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Top or bottom posting; does it really matter? [message #411341 is a reply to message #411340] Tue, 28 September 2021 14:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
scott is currently offline  scott
Messages: 3946
Registered: February 2012
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Senior Member
Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
> On Tue, 28 Sep 2021 13:12:17 GMT
> usenet@only.tnx (Questor) wrote:
>
>> Unfortunately, the term "woke" is being smeared by conservatives, and
>> there's not clear clear consensus on what it means to liberals. That
>> being said, what's wrong with treating people of different sexual
>> orientations, or racial and cultural backgrounds, with the basic respect
>> due any human being? What's wrong with addressing people in the manner
>> they wish to be addressed? What's wrong with being upset at humor made
>> at the expense of people in some minority, or that perpetuates negative
>> stereotypes? What's wrong with condeming statements that belittle or
>> denigrate others?
>
> Nothing is wrong with any of that IMHO - my father would have
> disagreed with me on several points.
>
>> It seems to me that not all, but most of the people complaining about
>> "wokeness" are upset at being called out for acting like an asshole.
>
> I think it is the "holier than thou" attitude of many users of the
> term rather than the principles themselves. As a child of the sixties I do
> find it perplexing the extent to which youngsters today seem to think
> they invented tolerance but hey the old beatniks probably thought similar
> things about us.

The _only_ people I've _ever_ heard (or seen in print) using the
term 'woke' have been conservatives using it to denigrate liberals;

I've never seen it used by someone who is supposedly 'woke'.
Re: Top or bottom posting; does it really matter? [message #411342 is a reply to message #411336] Tue, 28 September 2021 15:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5052
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 2021-09-28, Questor <usenet@only.tnx> wrote:

> On Mon, 27 Sep 2021 21:45:47 -0400, J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 27 Sep 2021 18:24:08 -0500, D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Woke basically means your head isn't inserted into your buttocks.
>>
>> This is true, woke means that your buttocks have descended around your
>> head.

:-)

> Unfortunately, the term "woke" is being smeared by conservatives,
> and there's not clear clear consensus on what it means to liberals.

To me, a lot of it looks like a resurgence of the Political Correctness
nonsense of the late '80s. Call it PC 2.0. The basic idea is the same:
make yourself seem righteous by putting down others for some perceived
offence, which may or may not have basis in fact. Since the original PC
craze, the term "virtue signaling" has been invented to describe this.

> That being said, what's wrong with treating people of different
> sexual orientations, or racial and cultural backgrounds, with the
> basic respect due any human being?

Nothing at all. At least as long as we can continue to distinguish
between these characteristics and a political stance.

> What's wrong with addressing people in the manner they wish to be
> addressed?

Generally nothing, Your Majesty. But we shouldn't have to twist
the language out of shape to do so.

> What's wrong with being upset at humor made at the expense of people
> in some minority, or that perpetuates negative stereotypes?

Generally nothing, but people are a little too thin-skinned these days.

> What's wrong with condeming statements that belittle or denigrate
> others?

Nothing unless they deserve it. I'm not going to start praising
corrupt politicians because it might hurt their delicate feelings.

> It seems to me that not all, but most of the people complaining about
> "wokeness" are upset at being called out for acting like an asshole.

The rest are complaining about being attacked unduly harshly for
saying things which were not intended to hurt or offend. A part
of "wokeness" seems to include changing the standards too fast
for anyone else to keep up with, and choosing the most malicious
interpretation of anything others say.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_Snowflake

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Life is perverse.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | It can be beautiful -
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | but it won't.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Lily Tomlin
Re: Top or bottom posting; does it really matter? [message #411344 is a reply to message #411341] Tue, 28 September 2021 15:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4477
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Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Tue, 28 Sep 2021 18:16:18 GMT
scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:

> I've never seen it used by someone who is supposedly 'woke'.

I have, but not for quite some time.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Top or bottom posting; does it really matter? [message #411347 is a reply to message #411336] Tue, 28 September 2021 17:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
D.J. is currently offline  D.J.
Messages: 591
Registered: January 2012
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Senior Member
On Tue, 28 Sep 2021 13:12:17 GMT, usenet@only.tnx (Questor) wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Sep 2021 21:45:47 -0400, J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 27 Sep 2021 18:24:08 -0500, D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>> <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> On 27/09/2021 20:35, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>>>> > On Sun, 26 Sep 2021 20:51:37 +0100, gareth evans wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> In groups.io, a similar facility to usenet, top posting predominates.
>>>> >
>>>> > Probably in comp.* or alt.*. If you top post in de.* (you also need to
>>>> > write in German for that) they roast you. Not just politely replying like
>>>> > here. If you don't comply by day 3 or 4 you'll end up in about
>>>> > everybody's killfile.
>>>>
>>>> I don't object to being in the killfiles of small-minded
>>>> Usenet wokes.
>>>
>>> Woke basically means your head isn't inserted into your buttocks.
>>
>> This is true, woke means that your buttocks have descended around your
>> head.
>
> Unfortunately, the term "woke" is being smeared by conservatives, and there's
> not clear clear consensus on what it means to liberals. That being said, what's
> wrong with treating people of different sexual orientations, or racial and
> cultural backgrounds, with the basic respect due any human being? What's wrong
> with addressing people in the manner they wish to be addressed? What's wrong
> with being upset at humor made at the expense of people in some minority, or
> that perpetuates negative stereotypes? What's wrong with condeming statements
> that belittle or denigrate others?
>
> It seems to me that not all, but most of the people complaining about "wokeness"
> are upset at being called out for acting like an asshole.

I fully agree.
Re: Top or bottom posting; does it really matter? [message #411348 is a reply to message #411342] Tue, 28 September 2021 17:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
D.J. is currently offline  D.J.
Messages: 591
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Tue, 28 Sep 2021 19:03:56 GMT, Charlie Gibbs
<cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> On 2021-09-28, Questor <usenet@only.tnx> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 27 Sep 2021 21:45:47 -0400, J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 27 Sep 2021 18:24:08 -0500, D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Woke basically means your head isn't inserted into your buttocks.
>>>
>>> This is true, woke means that your buttocks have descended around your
>>> head.
>
> :-)
>
>> Unfortunately, the term "woke" is being smeared by conservatives,
>> and there's not clear clear consensus on what it means to liberals.
>
> To me, a lot of it looks like a resurgence of the Political Correctness
> nonsense of the late '80s. Call it PC 2.0. The basic idea is the same:
> make yourself seem righteous by putting down others for some perceived
> offence, which may or may not have basis in fact. Since the original PC
> craze, the term "virtue signaling" has been invented to describe this.
>
>> That being said, what's wrong with treating people of different
>> sexual orientations, or racial and cultural backgrounds, with the
>> basic respect due any human being?
>
> Nothing at all. At least as long as we can continue to distinguish
> between these characteristics and a political stance.
>
>> What's wrong with addressing people in the manner they wish to be
>> addressed?
>
> Generally nothing, Your Majesty. But we shouldn't have to twist
> the language out of shape to do so.
>
>> What's wrong with being upset at humor made at the expense of people
>> in some minority, or that perpetuates negative stereotypes?
>
> Generally nothing, but people are a little too thin-skinned these days.

Fascinating. I'm rather sure all of us have heard 'too thin skinned'
for decades, not just this century.

>> What's wrong with condeming statements that belittle or denigrate
>> others?
>
> Nothing unless they deserve it. I'm not going to start praising
> corrupt politicians because it might hurt their delicate feelings.
>
>> It seems to me that not all, but most of the people complaining about
>> "wokeness" are upset at being called out for acting like an asshole.
>
> The rest are complaining about being attacked unduly harshly for
> saying things which were not intended to hurt or offend. A part
> of "wokeness" seems to include changing the standards too fast
> for anyone else to keep up with, and choosing the most malicious
> interpretation of anything others say.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_Snowflake

Conservatives call people snwflakes when they get upset at being
called out for various things like racism and being a trump follower.
I've called people a racist, since I was a teenager, back in the
1960s, before hippiedom.
Re: Top or bottom posting; does it really matter? [message #411349 is a reply to message #411339] Tue, 28 September 2021 17:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
D.J. is currently offline  D.J.
Messages: 591
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Tue, 28 Sep 2021 09:36:48 -0700, Peter Flass
<peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 27 Sep 2021 21:34:36 +0100, gareth evans
>> <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> I don't object to being in the killfiles of small-minded
>>> Usenet wokes.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 27/09/2021 20:35, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 26 Sep 2021 20:51:37 +0100, gareth evans wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > In groups.io, a similar facility to usenet, top posting predominates.
>>>>
>>>> Probably in comp.* or alt.*. If you top post in de.* (you also need to
>>>> write in German for that) they roast you. Not just politely replying like
>>>> here. If you don't comply by day 3 or 4 you'll end up in about
>>>> everybody's killfile.
>>>
>>> I don't object to being in the killfiles of small-minded
>>> Usenet wokes.
>>
>> Woke basically means your head isn't inserted into your buttocks.
>>
>
> Or more likely the opposite.

And I disagree with your claim.
Re: Top or bottom posting; does it really matter? [message #411350 is a reply to message #411341] Tue, 28 September 2021 19:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Quadibloc is currently offline  Quadibloc
Messages: 4290
Registered: June 2012
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Senior Member
On Tuesday, September 28, 2021 at 12:16:20 PM UTC-6, Scott Lurndal wrote:

> The _only_ people I've _ever_ heard (or seen in print) using the
> term 'woke' have been conservatives using it to denigrate liberals;

I've seen the term "woke" used by people on the liberal side.

What that term means to them when they use it is: someone who
is genuinely conscious of the lived experiences of disadvantaged
groups (particularly African-Americans) and of their perception of
those experiences.

So, if you're "woke", then you "get it" - in rather longer-established
slang.

Thus, one can be liberal without being "woke", and then one may be
liable to be well-meaning but still make mistakes that can be seen
as patronizing, or fail to grasp why certain issues are considered to
be serious matters.

So there are black Americans who feel that the more white
Americans become "woke", and the sooner it happens, the better.

John Savard
Re: Top or bottom posting; does it really matter? [message #411351 is a reply to message #411336] Tue, 28 September 2021 19:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Quadibloc is currently offline  Quadibloc
Messages: 4290
Registered: June 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Tuesday, September 28, 2021 at 7:11:08 AM UTC-6, Questor wrote:

> Unfortunately, the term "woke" is being smeared by conservatives,

True enough.

> and there's
> not clear clear consensus on what it means to liberals.

I don't think that's the problem.

At least wherever I have seen that term used, it had a meaning that was
clear and consistent enough that you could put it in a dictionary.

Someone is "woke" when his understanding of the situation of a
disadvantaged group is genuine. When he sees what they're really
living with, rather than seeing it through the distorting lens of his
own experiences and assumptions. When he sees how they
percieve their situation.

But that doesn't eliminate all ambiguity about who is "woke".

To illustrate why, let's take another term: "feminist". This one does
potentially have multiple meanings, as it can also refer to forms of
female supremacism. But its basic meaning is simply: a feminist is
one who believes that women are fully human beings, fully equal
to men in rights and dignity.

Now, a man could be a feminist by that definition, and yet also believe
that abortion is homicide. There's no contradiction between believing
that adult women are people, and that babies are people too, even when
they're not born yet.

But such a man would hardly be *acknowledged* as a feminist by
most of those we think of as feminists, would he?

Similarly, a man could indeed be knowledgeable as well as empathetic to
the plight of black Americans, to the extent that he would qualify as
"woke", and yet have doubts about Black Lives Matter due to other
concerns: he could recognize the difficulties of the situations police officers
often find themselves in.

Again, such a one might _be_ woke without being likely to be *acknowledged*
as woke.

John Savard
Re: Top or bottom posting; does it really matter? [message #411352 is a reply to message #411351] Tue, 28 September 2021 20:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Tue, 28 Sep 2021 16:55:19 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
<jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

> On Tuesday, September 28, 2021 at 7:11:08 AM UTC-6, Questor wrote:
>
>> Unfortunately, the term "woke" is being smeared by conservatives,
>
> True enough.
>
>> and there's
>> not clear clear consensus on what it means to liberals.
>
> I don't think that's the problem.
>
> At least wherever I have seen that term used, it had a meaning that was
> clear and consistent enough that you could put it in a dictionary.
>
> Someone is "woke" when his understanding of the situation of a
> disadvantaged group is genuine. When he sees what they're really
> living with, rather than seeing it through the distorting lens of his
> own experiences and assumptions. When he sees how they
> percieve their situation.
>
> But that doesn't eliminate all ambiguity about who is "woke".
>
> To illustrate why, let's take another term: "feminist". This one does
> potentially have multiple meanings, as it can also refer to forms of
> female supremacism. But its basic meaning is simply: a feminist is
> one who believes that women are fully human beings, fully equal
> to men in rights and dignity.
>
> Now, a man could be a feminist by that definition, and yet also believe
> that abortion is homicide. There's no contradiction between believing
> that adult women are people, and that babies are people too, even when
> they're not born yet.
>
> But such a man would hardly be *acknowledged* as a feminist by
> most of those we think of as feminists, would he?
>
> Similarly, a man could indeed be knowledgeable as well as empathetic to
> the plight of black Americans, to the extent that he would qualify as
> "woke", and yet have doubts about Black Lives Matter due to other
> concerns: he could recognize the difficulties of the situations police officers
> often find themselves in.
>
> Again, such a one might _be_ woke without being likely to be *acknowledged*
> as woke.

It's one of those words like "hip" that denote that someone is
accepted as a member of an "in-group". This person is "woke" because
he or she speaks a certain cant, that person isn't because they don't
buy the cant.
Re: Top or bottom posting; does it really matter? [message #411354 is a reply to message #411307] Tue, 28 September 2021 21:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Branimir Maksimovic

On 2021-09-27, gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Netiquette is not etiquette.
>
> Perhaps those who take offence so easily over
> such a trivial matter were the prototype
> woke generation?
>
> Wherever the new material is placed, whether at the
> top or the bottom (or both, in this case) you get
> to read it and assimilate its intelligence, so
> why have an emotional reaction in addition?
>

You are being ENLIGHTENED! I BOW to YOU!


--

7-77-777
Evil Sinner!
Re: Top or bottom posting; does it really matter? [message #411356 is a reply to message #411300] Tue, 28 September 2021 21:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Branimir Maksimovic

On 2021-09-27, Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Sep 2021 20:51:37 +0100, gareth evans wrote:
>>
>> In groups.io, a similar facility to usenet, top posting predominates.
>
> Probably in comp.* or alt.*. If you top post in de.* (you also need to
> write in German for that) they roast you. Not just politely replying like
> here. If you don't comply by day 3 or 4 you'll end up in about
> everybody's killfile.

That is when you don't want critic and someone to DISCREDIT you :P

>


--

7-77-777
Evil Sinner!
Re: Top or bottom posting; does it really matter? [message #411357 is a reply to message #411318] Tue, 28 September 2021 21:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Branimir Maksimovic

On 2021-09-27, gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I don't object to being in the killfiles of small-minded
> Usenet wokes.
>
>
> I don't object to being in the killfiles of small-minded
> Usenet wokes.
>

I bow to ENLIGHTENED ones ALWAYS :P
( I am ANTITROLL, like ANTiCHRIST :P)


--

7-77-777
Evil Sinner!
Re: Top or bottom posting; does it really matter? [message #411358 is a reply to message #411329] Tue, 28 September 2021 21:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Branimir Maksimovic

On 2021-09-28, Charles Richmond <codescott@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
>
> Some "official" groups (not "alt.*" groups) are moderated by an "admin",
> and you have to be officially admitted to the group by that admin.
>

Well, but moderation can be esilly bypassed by forging
approval header :P
>

--

7-77-777
Evil Sinner!
Re: Top or bottom posting; does it really matter? [message #411374 is a reply to message #411332] Wed, 29 September 2021 12:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charles Richmond is currently offline  Charles Richmond
Messages: 2667
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 9/28/2021 8:09 AM, Questor wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Sep 2021 09:58:58 +0100, gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Netiquette is not etiquette.
>
> It certainly is. It is a branch of etiquette that deals specifically with
> online communications.
>

[... quoted material omitted ...]

> Layout matters, viz:
>
> https://keepmeme.com/meme/you-matter-dont-give-up-or-you-don t-matter-give-up
>
>
> Every so often some pedant comes along and advances the argument that some part
> of estabilished etiquette, for example, shop clerks asking "how are you" or
> wishing you a nice day -- to say nothing of "please" and "thank you" -- are
> superfluous and unnecessary because they convey no information and are just some
> outdated, arbitrary convention, and thus can be discarded. They ignore that,
> among other things, these phrases actually provide useful functions: they can
> reveal intentions, set expectations, and generally establish a framework for
> successful transactions between strangers. You might think of them as verbal
> lubricant, or liken them to a computer protocol that allows two hetrogeneous
> computers to exchange data. Be it place settings, wedding invitations, or some
> other etiquette matter, the same tired arguments regarding their irrelevance
> are made periodically, and same valid refutations are made in return.
>
> And so it is with netiquette, and most frequently, the top/bottom posting issue.
> That horse is long dead, beaten into a grease spot, and even the bones are
> turning to dust. The overwhelming consensus is that bottom posting and
> judicious trimming of long posts is the proper course. Exceptions are rare,
> and continued top posting marks one as a newbie or a self-declared iconoclast
> who thinks they are championing reason, freedom, or some other abstraction.
> But they are just ignorant, or being selfish and childish. They tilt at
> windmills in their mind.
>

Is there an RFC somewhere that discusses all this???



--

Charles Richmond

--
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Re: Top or bottom posting; does it really matter? [message #411376 is a reply to message #411350] Wed, 29 September 2021 13:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charles Richmond is currently offline  Charles Richmond
Messages: 2667
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 9/28/2021 6:39 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 28, 2021 at 12:16:20 PM UTC-6, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>
>> The _only_ people I've _ever_ heard (or seen in print) using the
>> term 'woke' have been conservatives using it to denigrate liberals;
>
> I've seen the term "woke" used by people on the liberal side.
>
> What that term means to them when they use it is: someone who
> is genuinely conscious of the lived experiences of disadvantaged
> groups (particularly African-Americans) and of their perception of
> those experiences.
>
> So, if you're "woke", then you "get it" - in rather longer-established
> slang.
>
> Thus, one can be liberal without being "woke", and then one may be
> liable to be well-meaning but still make mistakes that can be seen
> as patronizing, or fail to grasp why certain issues are considered to
> be serious matters.
>
> So there are black Americans who feel that the more white
> Americans become "woke", and the sooner it happens, the better.
>

Has anyone considered putting on their fire-proof suits and moving this
thread to "alt.flamewar"??? :-) Some of this is starting to singe my
computer screen! ;-)

Of course if folks want to continue this "discussion" here, that's good
too. At least these posts beat having *no* one posting to
alt.computers.folklore. :-) I hope...


--

Charles Richmond

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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Re: Top or bottom posting; does it really matter? [message #411386 is a reply to message #411374] Wed, 29 September 2021 15:42 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: gareth evans

On 29/09/2021 17:54, Charles Richmond wrote:
> Is

A Request For Comment (RFC) is just that and not a ruling.

> there an RFC somewhere that discusses all this???
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