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Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer [message #411149] Wed, 22 September 2021 15:57 Go to next message
Andreas Kohlbach is currently offline  Andreas Kohlbach
Messages: 1415
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 09:13:12 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
> On 22/09/2021 06.11, SevenOverSix wrote:
>>
>>   You could LOOK, but not TOUCH the mini-mainframes. Only
>>   the Holy Elite were allowed in the Computer Room. You
>>   could offer your sacrifice of punch-cards in the room
>>   next door of course ............
>
> Oh, we had our lab time on the terminals.
>
> However, the machine got so busy with all the students compiling and
> testing their Pascal assignments (specially in the last weeks), that the
> editor would take seconds to respond to a keypress. So we counted: five
> lines down, then 12 letters right, then three deletes, then replace
> "tye" with "the", then wait :-D
>
> It was then that I decided I needed my own computer and asked my father
> to get me one. An Amstrad PC 1512, the student association had an
> agreement with a vendor. A bit weird vendor... it was not a computer
> shop, but a warehouse of some industrial thing... There no home PC
> computer vendors by that time, they were starting.

That was Spain at that time?

Similar in Germany. Dedicated computer shop chains only showed up later
in the 1980s and had their boom in the 1990s. Then most died.

Then you had general department stores which added home computers by the
early 1980s. Then you had hypermarkets (like Walmart or Carrefour today)
where you (in my case at least) only found products by Commodore. There I
got my C64 (1984) and Amiga 500 (1989) from.

[...]

>>   Need to find a compatible tape cassette unit now. Junk
>>   store ? COULD cheat and record to a modern PC audio
>>   capture, but it's just not the same somehow  :-)
>
> Might not work (a capture). Just a guess. If you do try, make sure to
> not use mp3. Now that I think, I would try the experiment, to find out.

There was a short lived [1] UK computer show "4 Computer Buffs"
<https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1178499/> I never heard of before. They
sent program data via audio the audience record. When I found the show on
Youtube I tested that (extracted the audio at that position) and ran the
resulting WAV in an emulator fir that particular machine on my PC. It my
amazement it worked.

X'Post + F'up alt.folklore.computers

[1] So unknown the IMDB page has only little information and a Wikipedia
page not even exists.
--
Andreas
Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer [message #411151 is a reply to message #411149] Wed, 22 September 2021 18:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Carlos E. R.

On 22/09/2021 21.57, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 09:13:12 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>
>> On 22/09/2021 06.11, SevenOverSix wrote:
>>>
>>>   You could LOOK, but not TOUCH the mini-mainframes. Only
>>>   the Holy Elite were allowed in the Computer Room. You
>>>   could offer your sacrifice of punch-cards in the room
>>>   next door of course ............
>>
>> Oh, we had our lab time on the terminals.
>>
>> However, the machine got so busy with all the students compiling and
>> testing their Pascal assignments (specially in the last weeks), that the
>> editor would take seconds to respond to a keypress. So we counted: five
>> lines down, then 12 letters right, then three deletes, then replace
>> "tye" with "the", then wait :-D
>>
>> It was then that I decided I needed my own computer and asked my father
>> to get me one. An Amstrad PC 1512, the student association had an
>> agreement with a vendor. A bit weird vendor... it was not a computer
>> shop, but a warehouse of some industrial thing... There no home PC
>> computer vendors by that time, they were starting.
>
> That was Spain at that time?

More or less, dates are confusing. Well, the dates when the Amstrad
started selling is known, must be on wikipedia.

>
> Similar in Germany. Dedicated computer shop chains only showed up later
> in the 1980s and had their boom in the 1990s. Then most died.
>
> Then you had general department stores which added home computers by the
> early 1980s.

Yes indeed.

And electronic component shops that besides oscilloscopes could sell you
a computer. Ah, HAM stuff shops, too.

> Then you had hypermarkets (like Walmart or Carrefour today)
> where you (in my case at least) only found products by Commodore. There I
> got my C64 (1984) and Amiga 500 (1989) from.

:-D

>
> [...]
>
>>>   Need to find a compatible tape cassette unit now. Junk
>>>   store ? COULD cheat and record to a modern PC audio
>>>   capture, but it's just not the same somehow  :-)
>>
>> Might not work (a capture). Just a guess. If you do try, make sure to
>> not use mp3. Now that I think, I would try the experiment, to find out.
>
> There was a short lived [1] UK computer show "4 Computer Buffs"
> <https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1178499/> I never heard of before. They
> sent program data via audio the audience record. When I found the show on
> Youtube I tested that (extracted the audio at that position) and ran the
> resulting WAV in an emulator fir that particular machine on my PC. It my
> amazement it worked.


Wow.

> X'Post + F'up alt.folklore.computers

I don't have that one subscribed here, so I will keep comp.os.linux.misc.

>
> [1] So unknown the IMDB page has only little information and a Wikipedia
> page not even exists.
>


--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.
Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer [message #411162 is a reply to message #411151] Thu, 23 September 2021 05:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Harry Vaderchi is currently offline  Harry Vaderchi
Messages: 606
Registered: July 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 00:59:46 +0200
"Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

> On 22/09/2021 21.57, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
[]

>>
>> There was a short lived [1] UK computer show "4 Computer Buffs"
>> <https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1178499/> I never heard of before.
>> They sent program data via audio the audience record. When I found

I recall that happening; but wasn't it a BBC (Acorn) thing?

My googlfu is weak.

>> the show on Youtube I tested that (extracted the audio at that
>> position) and ran the resulting WAV in an emulator fir that
>> particular machine on my PC. It my amazement it worked.
>
>
> Wow.
>
>> X'Post + F'up alt.folklore.computers
>
> I don't have that one subscribed here, so I will keep
> comp.os.linux.misc.
>
Do it! Lot's of tales of yesteryear.

>>
>> [1] So unknown the IMDB page has only little information and a
>> Wikipedia page not even exists.
>>



> --
> Cheers,
> Carlos E.R.


--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.
Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer [message #411163 is a reply to message #411162] Thu, 23 September 2021 06:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Carlos E. R.

On 23/09/2021 11.14, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 00:59:46 +0200
> "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 22/09/2021 21.57, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
> []
>
>>>
>>> There was a short lived [1] UK computer show "4 Computer Buffs"
>>> <https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1178499/> I never heard of before.
>>> They sent program data via audio the audience record. When I found
>
> I recall that happening; but wasn't it a BBC (Acorn) thing?
>
> My googlfu is weak.
>
>>> the show on Youtube I tested that (extracted the audio at that
>>> position) and ran the resulting WAV in an emulator fir that
>>> particular machine on my PC. It my amazement it worked.
>>
>>
>> Wow.
>>
>>> X'Post + F'up alt.folklore.computers
>>
>> I don't have that one subscribed here, so I will keep
>> comp.os.linux.misc.
>>
> Do it! Lot's of tales of yesteryear.

I have it at home, but not in my laptop, which is ancient and already
too loaded. I may try.

As a general rule, I don't like moving a thread from one group to
another, as people can be left out. Adding another group is ok.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.
Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer [message #411167 is a reply to message #411151] Thu, 23 September 2021 10:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
Messages: 7970
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> On 22/09/2021 21.57, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>> On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 09:13:12 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>>
>>> On 22/09/2021 06.11, SevenOverSix wrote:
>>>>
>>>>   You could LOOK, but not TOUCH the mini-mainframes. Only
>>>>   the Holy Elite were allowed in the Computer Room. You
>>>>   could offer your sacrifice of punch-cards in the room
>>>>   next door of course ............
>>>
>>> Oh, we had our lab time on the terminals.
>>>
>>> However, the machine got so busy with all the students compiling and
>>> testing their Pascal assignments (specially in the last weeks), that the
>>> editor would take seconds to respond to a keypress. So we counted: five
>>> lines down, then 12 letters right, then three deletes, then replace
>>> "tye" with "the", then wait :-D
>>>
>>> It was then that I decided I needed my own computer and asked my father
>>> to get me one. An Amstrad PC 1512, the student association had an
>>> agreement with a vendor. A bit weird vendor... it was not a computer
>>> shop, but a warehouse of some industrial thing... There no home PC
>>> computer vendors by that time, they were starting.
>>
>> That was Spain at that time?
>
> More or less, dates are confusing. Well, the dates when the Amstrad
> started selling is known, must be on wikipedia.
>
>>
>> Similar in Germany. Dedicated computer shop chains only showed up later
>> in the 1980s and had their boom in the 1990s. Then most died.
>>
>> Then you had general department stores which added home computers by the
>> early 1980s.
>
> Yes indeed.
>
> And electronic component shops that besides oscilloscopes could sell you
> a computer. Ah, HAM stuff shops, too.
>
>> Then you had hypermarkets (like Walmart or Carrefour today)
>> where you (in my case at least) only found products by Commodore. There I
>> got my C64 (1984) and Amiga 500 (1989) from.
>
> :-D
>
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>>>   Need to find a compatible tape cassette unit now. Junk
>>>>   store ? COULD cheat and record to a modern PC audio
>>>>   capture, but it's just not the same somehow  :-)
>>>
>>> Might not work (a capture). Just a guess. If you do try, make sure to
>>> not use mp3. Now that I think, I would try the experiment, to find out.
>>
>> There was a short lived [1] UK computer show "4 Computer Buffs"
>> <https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1178499/> I never heard of before. They
>> sent program data via audio the audience record. When I found the show on
>> Youtube I tested that (extracted the audio at that position) and ran the
>> resulting WAV in an emulator fir that particular machine on my PC. It my
>> amazement it worked.
>
>
> Wow.

Systems that saved programs on cassette used an audio format. Due to the
sloppiness of the media, I think the recording format had to be pretty
robust.
>
>> X'Post + F'up alt.folklore.computers
>
> I don't have that one subscribed here, so I will keep comp.os.linux.misc.
>
>>
>> [1] So unknown the IMDB page has only little information and a Wikipedia
>> page not even exists.
>>
>
>



--
Pete
Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer [message #411170 is a reply to message #411167] Thu, 23 September 2021 11:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Rich

In comp.os.linux.misc Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>> On 22/09/2021 21.57, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>>> On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 09:13:12 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>>> Might not work (a capture). Just a guess. If you do try, make
>>>> sure to not use mp3. Now that I think, I would try the
>>>> experiment, to find out.
>>>
>>> There was a short lived [1] UK computer show "4 Computer Buffs"
>>> <https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1178499/> I never heard of before.
>>> They sent program data via audio the audience record. When I found
>>> the show on Youtube I tested that (extracted the audio at that
>>> position) and ran the resulting WAV in an emulator fir that
>>> particular machine on my PC. It my amazement it worked.
>>
>>
>> Wow.
>
> Systems that saved programs on cassette used an audio format. Due to
> the sloppiness of the media, I think the recording format had to be
> pretty robust.

At least in the case of the Atari 400/800 cassette format it was a very
simple format:

Format details are here: https://www.atariarchives.org/dere/chaptC.php

132 byte records, two start bytes for 'speed detection', a control
byte, 128 data bytes, and a single checksum byte (and the checksum is
just a simple endaround carry sum of the 131 other bytes in the record).

The physical byte encoding on the tape was frequency shift keying, with
5327 Hz for a mark and 3995 Hz for a space.

So it at least it had a simple checksum, but the packet format was
hardly "robust". Workable, but memory of those days was that the
cassette was quite flakey as a data storage format, sometimes it
worked, sometimes it did not. And when it did not rereading things all
over again sometimes magically had them work.
Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer [message #411175 is a reply to message #411170] Thu, 23 September 2021 14:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5047
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 2021-09-23, Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:

> In comp.os.linux.misc Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On 22/09/2021 21.57, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 09:13:12 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > Might not work (a capture). Just a guess. If you do try,
>>>> > make sure to not use mp3. Now that I think, I would try the
>>>> > experiment, to find out.
>>>>
>>>> There was a short lived [1] UK computer show "4 Computer Buffs"
>>>> <https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1178499/> I never heard of before.
>>>> They sent program data via audio the audience record. When I found
>>>> the show on Youtube I tested that (extracted the audio at that
>>>> position) and ran the resulting WAV in an emulator fir that
>>>> particular machine on my PC. It my amazement it worked.
>>>
>>> Wow.
>>
>> Systems that saved programs on cassette used an audio format. Due to
>> the sloppiness of the media, I think the recording format had to be
>> pretty robust.
>
> At least in the case of the Atari 400/800 cassette format it was a very
> simple format:
>
> Format details are here: https://www.atariarchives.org/dere/chaptC.php
>
> 132 byte records, two start bytes for 'speed detection', a control
> byte, 128 data bytes, and a single checksum byte (and the checksum is
> just a simple endaround carry sum of the 131 other bytes in the record).
>
> The physical byte encoding on the tape was frequency shift keying, with
> 5327 Hz for a mark and 3995 Hz for a space.
>
> So it at least it had a simple checksum, but the packet format was
> hardly "robust". Workable, but memory of those days was that the
> cassette was quite flakey as a data storage format, sometimes it
> worked, sometimes it did not. And when it did not rereading things all
> over again sometimes magically had them work.

Ah yes, I remember the good old days with my IMSAI. I didn't have
cassette decks, but I had a couple of reel-to-reel decks, so I broke
into their motor circuits and built a control box that would use the
cassette motor control circuits to activate relays to switch 110-volt
motor power on and off.

I didn't have a real cassette interface in the beginning, but I did
have a Bell 202 modem (1200 bps async) that I picked up somewhere.
I recorded its output to tape and played it back in - it worked well
enough, although when I finally scraped up the bucks for a CUTS board
it was more reliable (but not much faster).

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Life is perverse.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | It can be beautiful -
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | but it won't.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Lily Tomlin
Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer [message #411179 is a reply to message #411175] Thu, 23 September 2021 15:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
Messages: 7970
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> On 2021-09-23, Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:
>
>> In comp.os.linux.misc Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 22/09/2021 21.57, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 09:13:12 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> Might not work (a capture). Just a guess. If you do try,
>>>> >> make sure to not use mp3. Now that I think, I would try the
>>>> >> experiment, to find out.
>>>> >
>>>> > There was a short lived [1] UK computer show "4 Computer Buffs"
>>>> > <https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1178499/> I never heard of before.
>>>> > They sent program data via audio the audience record. When I found
>>>> > the show on Youtube I tested that (extracted the audio at that
>>>> > position) and ran the resulting WAV in an emulator fir that
>>>> > particular machine on my PC. It my amazement it worked.
>>>>
>>>> Wow.
>>>
>>> Systems that saved programs on cassette used an audio format. Due to
>>> the sloppiness of the media, I think the recording format had to be
>>> pretty robust.
>>
>> At least in the case of the Atari 400/800 cassette format it was a very
>> simple format:
>>
>> Format details are here: https://www.atariarchives.org/dere/chaptC.php
>>
>> 132 byte records, two start bytes for 'speed detection', a control
>> byte, 128 data bytes, and a single checksum byte (and the checksum is
>> just a simple endaround carry sum of the 131 other bytes in the record).
>>
>> The physical byte encoding on the tape was frequency shift keying, with
>> 5327 Hz for a mark and 3995 Hz for a space.
>>
>> So it at least it had a simple checksum, but the packet format was
>> hardly "robust". Workable, but memory of those days was that the
>> cassette was quite flakey as a data storage format, sometimes it
>> worked, sometimes it did not. And when it did not rereading things all
>> over again sometimes magically had them work.
>
> Ah yes, I remember the good old days with my IMSAI. I didn't have
> cassette decks, but I had a couple of reel-to-reel decks, so I broke
> into their motor circuits and built a control box that would use the
> cassette motor control circuits to activate relays to switch 110-volt
> motor power on and off.

I was astonished when I got my first home computer with a cassette drive
that it didn’t do this!

>
> I didn't have a real cassette interface in the beginning, but I did
> have a Bell 202 modem (1200 bps async) that I picked up somewhere.
> I recorded its output to tape and played it back in - it worked well
> enough, although when I finally scraped up the bucks for a CUTS board
> it was more reliable (but not much faster).
>



--
Pete
Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer [message #411184 is a reply to message #411179] Thu, 23 September 2021 18:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Carlos E. R.

On 23/09/2021 21.55, Peter Flass wrote:
> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2021-09-23, Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> In comp.os.linux.misc Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > On 22/09/2021 21.57, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 09:13:12 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> Might not work (a capture). Just a guess. If you do try,
>>>> >>> make sure to not use mp3. Now that I think, I would try the
>>>> >>> experiment, to find out.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> There was a short lived [1] UK computer show "4 Computer Buffs"
>>>> >> <https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1178499/> I never heard of before.
>>>> >> They sent program data via audio the audience record. When I found
>>>> >> the show on Youtube I tested that (extracted the audio at that
>>>> >> position) and ran the resulting WAV in an emulator fir that
>>>> >> particular machine on my PC. It my amazement it worked.
>>>> >
>>>> > Wow.
>>>>
>>>> Systems that saved programs on cassette used an audio format. Due to
>>>> the sloppiness of the media, I think the recording format had to be
>>>> pretty robust.
>>>
>>> At least in the case of the Atari 400/800 cassette format it was a very
>>> simple format:
>>>
>>> Format details are here: https://www.atariarchives.org/dere/chaptC.php
>>>
>>> 132 byte records, two start bytes for 'speed detection', a control
>>> byte, 128 data bytes, and a single checksum byte (and the checksum is
>>> just a simple endaround carry sum of the 131 other bytes in the record).
>>>
>>> The physical byte encoding on the tape was frequency shift keying, with
>>> 5327 Hz for a mark and 3995 Hz for a space.
>>>
>>> So it at least it had a simple checksum, but the packet format was
>>> hardly "robust". Workable, but memory of those days was that the
>>> cassette was quite flakey as a data storage format, sometimes it
>>> worked, sometimes it did not. And when it did not rereading things all
>>> over again sometimes magically had them work.
>>
>> Ah yes, I remember the good old days with my IMSAI. I didn't have
>> cassette decks, but I had a couple of reel-to-reel decks, so I broke
>> into their motor circuits and built a control box that would use the
>> cassette motor control circuits to activate relays to switch 110-volt
>> motor power on and off.
>
> I was astonished when I got my first home computer with a cassette drive
> that it didn’t do this!

I have a foggy memory that it used the switch on/off wires of the
microphone, which in some/all tape machines stopped the motor.

That would be the Sinclair Spectrum if any, but can't vouch for it.


--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.
Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer [message #411201 is a reply to message #411184] Fri, 24 September 2021 07:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Harry Vaderchi is currently offline  Harry Vaderchi
Messages: 606
Registered: July 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Fri, 24 Sep 2021 00:21:01 +0200
"Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

> On 23/09/2021 21.55, Peter Flass wrote:
>> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 2021-09-23, Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In comp.os.linux.misc Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> On 22/09/2021 21.57, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 09:13:12 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> Might not work (a capture). Just a guess. If you do try,
>>>> >>>> make sure to not use mp3. Now that I think, I would try the
>>>> >>>> experiment, to find out.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> There was a short lived [1] UK computer show "4 Computer
>>>> >>> Buffs" <https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1178499/> I never heard
>>>> >>> of before. They sent program data via audio the audience
>>>> >>> record. When I found the show on Youtube I tested that
>>>> >>> (extracted the audio at that position) and ran the resulting
>>>> >>> WAV in an emulator fir that particular machine on my PC. It
>>>> >>> my amazement it worked.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Wow.
>>>> >
>>>> > Systems that saved programs on cassette used an audio format.
>>>> > Due to the sloppiness of the media, I think the recording format
>>>> > had to be pretty robust.
>>>>
>>>> At least in the case of the Atari 400/800 cassette format it was
>>>> a very simple format:
>>>>
>>>> Format details are here:
>>>> https://www.atariarchives.org/dere/chaptC.php
>>>>
>>>> 132 byte records, two start bytes for 'speed detection', a
>>>> control byte, 128 data bytes, and a single checksum byte (and the
>>>> checksum is just a simple endaround carry sum of the 131 other
>>>> bytes in the record).
>>>>
>>>> The physical byte encoding on the tape was frequency shift
>>>> keying, with 5327 Hz for a mark and 3995 Hz for a space.
>>>>
>>>> So it at least it had a simple checksum, but the packet format
>>>> was hardly "robust". Workable, but memory of those days was that
>>>> the cassette was quite flakey as a data storage format, sometimes
>>>> it worked, sometimes it did not. And when it did not rereading
>>>> things all over again sometimes magically had them work.
>>>
>>> Ah yes, I remember the good old days with my IMSAI. I didn't have
>>> cassette decks, but I had a couple of reel-to-reel decks, so I
>>> broke into their motor circuits and built a control box that would
>>> use the cassette motor control circuits to activate relays to
>>> switch 110-volt motor power on and off.
>>
>> I was astonished when I got my first home computer with a cassette
>> drive that it didn’t do this!
>
> I have a foggy memory that it used the switch on/off wires of the
> microphone, which in some/all tape machines stopped the motor.
>
> That would be the Sinclair Spectrum if any, but can't vouch for it.

Drifting; the Amstrad early version (z80 based) CPC464 had a builtin cassette recorder.

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.
Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer [message #411202 is a reply to message #411201] Fri, 24 September 2021 07:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Branimir Maksimovic

I had CPC6128 2x64kb and FLOPPY! z80 CPU alright and CP/M OS.
Worked in bakershop in England to save money ti buy it.
Learned to program on z80.

--
7-77-777
\|/
---
/|\

On 2021-09-24, Kerr-Mudd, John <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Sep 2021 00:21:01 +0200
> "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 23/09/2021 21.55, Peter Flass wrote:
>>> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On 2021-09-23, Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > In comp.os.linux.misc Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> On 22/09/2021 21.57, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 09:13:12 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>> Might not work (a capture). Just a guess. If you do try,
>>>> >>>>> make sure to not use mp3. Now that I think, I would try the
>>>> >>>>> experiment, to find out.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> There was a short lived [1] UK computer show "4 Computer
>>>> >>>> Buffs" <https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1178499/> I never heard
>>>> >>>> of before. They sent program data via audio the audience
>>>> >>>> record. When I found the show on Youtube I tested that
>>>> >>>> (extracted the audio at that position) and ran the resulting
>>>> >>>> WAV in an emulator fir that particular machine on my PC. It
>>>> >>>> my amazement it worked.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Wow.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Systems that saved programs on cassette used an audio format.
>>>> >> Due to the sloppiness of the media, I think the recording format
>>>> >> had to be pretty robust.
>>>> >
>>>> > At least in the case of the Atari 400/800 cassette format it was
>>>> > a very simple format:
>>>> >
>>>> > Format details are here:
>>>> > https://www.atariarchives.org/dere/chaptC.php
>>>> >
>>>> > 132 byte records, two start bytes for 'speed detection', a
>>>> > control byte, 128 data bytes, and a single checksum byte (and the
>>>> > checksum is just a simple endaround carry sum of the 131 other
>>>> > bytes in the record).
>>>> >
>>>> > The physical byte encoding on the tape was frequency shift
>>>> > keying, with 5327 Hz for a mark and 3995 Hz for a space.
>>>> >
>>>> > So it at least it had a simple checksum, but the packet format
>>>> > was hardly "robust". Workable, but memory of those days was that
>>>> > the cassette was quite flakey as a data storage format, sometimes
>>>> > it worked, sometimes it did not. And when it did not rereading
>>>> > things all over again sometimes magically had them work.
>>>>
>>>> Ah yes, I remember the good old days with my IMSAI. I didn't have
>>>> cassette decks, but I had a couple of reel-to-reel decks, so I
>>>> broke into their motor circuits and built a control box that would
>>>> use the cassette motor control circuits to activate relays to
>>>> switch 110-volt motor power on and off.
>>>
>>> I was astonished when I got my first home computer with a cassette
>>> drive that it didn’t do this!
>>
>> I have a foggy memory that it used the switch on/off wires of the
>> microphone, which in some/all tape machines stopped the motor.
>>
>> That would be the Sinclair Spectrum if any, but can't vouch for it.
>
> Drifting; the Amstrad early version (z80 based) CPC464 had a builtin cassette recorder.
>


--
Evil Sinner!
Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer [message #411205 is a reply to message #411202] Fri, 24 September 2021 08:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Harry Vaderchi is currently offline  Harry Vaderchi
Messages: 606
Registered: July 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Fri, 24 Sep 2021 11:47:53 GMT
Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@gmail.com> wrote:

> I had CPC6128 2x64kb and FLOPPY! z80 CPU alright and CP/M OS.
> Worked in bakershop in England to save money ti buy it.
> Learned to program on z80.
>
> --
> 7-77-777
> \|/
> ---
> /|\
>
Please adopt usenet convention and post your reply text at the bottom, there's a good chap. And some judicious snipping would help too. (Yup I didn't do it last time, mea culpa).



> On 2021-09-24, Kerr-Mudd, John <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote:
>> On Fri, 24 Sep 2021 00:21:01 +0200
[]
>>
>> Drifting; the Amstrad early version (z80 based) CPC464 had a
>> builtin cassette recorder.
>>
>
>
> --
> Evil Sinner!


--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.
Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer [message #411206 is a reply to message #411205] Fri, 24 September 2021 09:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Branimir Maksimovic

Ok, I'll do that when you learn how to format text properly.
Top posting is what emphaises is on, and, if lot of text, they
will not even read what is written.
YES, CPC464 was very popular, and breaking SPEEDLOCK protections
as excercize :P
--
7-77-777
\|/
/|\

On 2021-09-24, Kerr-Mudd, John <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Sep 2021 11:47:53 GMT Branimir Maksimovic
> <branimir.maksimovic@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I had CPC6128 2x64kb and FLOPPY! z80 CPU alright and CP/M OS. Worked in
>> bakershop in England to save money ti buy it. Learned to program on z80.
>>
>> -- 7-77-777 \|/ --- /|\
>>
> Please adopt usenet convention and post your reply text at the bottom,
> there's a good chap. And some judicious snipping would help too. (Yup I
> didn't do it last time, mea culpa).
>
>
>
>> On 2021-09-24, Kerr-Mudd, John <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 24 Sep 2021 00:21:01 +0200
> []
>>>
>>> Drifting; the Amstrad early version (z80 based) CPC464 had a builtin
>>> cassette recorder.
>>>
>>
>>
>> -- Evil Sinner!
>
>


--
Evil Sinner!
Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer [message #411207 is a reply to message #411206] Fri, 24 September 2021 11:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Andrea Croci

Same here. I so much hate having to scroll down to read what I want to
read, that could be just there for me to see.

On 24.09.21 15:05, Branimir Maksimovic wrote:
> Ok, I'll do that when you learn how to format text properly.
> Top posting is what emphaises is on, and, if lot of text, they
> will not even read what is written.
> YES, CPC464 was very popular, and breaking SPEEDLOCK protections
> as excercize :P
> --
> 7-77-777
> \|/
> /|\
>
> On 2021-09-24, Kerr-Mudd, John <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote:
>> On Fri, 24 Sep 2021 11:47:53 GMT Branimir Maksimovic
>> <branimir.maksimovic@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I had CPC6128 2x64kb and FLOPPY! z80 CPU alright and CP/M OS. Worked in
>>> bakershop in England to save money ti buy it. Learned to program on z80.
>>>
>>> -- 7-77-777 \|/ --- /|\
>>>
>> Please adopt usenet convention and post your reply text at the bottom,
>> there's a good chap. And some judicious snipping would help too. (Yup I
>> didn't do it last time, mea culpa).
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 2021-09-24, Kerr-Mudd, John <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 24 Sep 2021 00:21:01 +0200
>> []
>>>>
>>>> Drifting; the Amstrad early version (z80 based) CPC464 had a builtin
>>>> cassette recorder.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -- Evil Sinner!
>>
>>
>
>
Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer [message #411209 is a reply to message #411206] Fri, 24 September 2021 13:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5047
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 2021-09-24, Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@gmail.com> wrote:

> Ok, I'll do that when you learn how to format text properly.

Or when you learn to spell "OK" properly... :-)

> Top posting is what emphaises is on, and, if lot of text, they
> will not even read what is written.

That only happens when people don't trim quoted text appropriately.

If you can't be bothered taking the time to make your message
easy to read, I can't be bothered taking the time to decipher it.

Just because Outlook[1] vict^H^H^H^Husers succumb to its pressure to
top-post doesn't make it a Good Thing.

[1] Properly pronounced "Look out!"

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | A: It messes up the flow of the thread.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Q: Why is top-posting bad?
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | A: Top-posting.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Q: What is an impediment to readability?
Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer [message #411211 is a reply to message #411209] Fri, 24 September 2021 14:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4468
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Fri, 24 Sep 2021 17:16:55 GMT
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

> Just because Outlook[1] vict^H^H^H^Husers succumb to its pressure to
> top-post doesn't make it a Good Thing.

At work (the environment Outlook was designed for) top posting
above a full quote is exactly the right thing to do. This is because there
is no list and so the entire thread has to be in every message so that if
someone else is added to the discussion they get the entire context. It
just means that when one of these monsters lands in the inbox you have to
start reading from the bottom, but at least by the time you get to the top
you know what they're on about.

> [1] Properly pronounced "Look out!"

or "Out House".

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer [message #411214 is a reply to message #411211] Fri, 24 September 2021 16:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5047
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 2021-09-24, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

> On Fri, 24 Sep 2021 17:16:55 GMT
> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Just because Outlook[1] vict^H^H^H^Husers succumb to its pressure to
>> top-post doesn't make it a Good Thing.
>
> At work (the environment Outlook was designed for) top posting
> above a full quote is exactly the right thing to do. This is because there
> is no list and so the entire thread has to be in every message so that if
> someone else is added to the discussion they get the entire context. It
> just means that when one of these monsters lands in the inbox you have to
> start reading from the bottom, but at least by the time you get to the top
> you know what they're on about.
>
>> [1] Properly pronounced "Look out!"
>
> or "Out House".

My analogy to this is a memo that gets sent around the office.
When you receive it, you photocopy the whole thing, staple your
reply to the top, and pass it on. Each time it comes back to you
you have another copy of the whole damned thing, growing thicker
every time. And all of those copies would be filling up everyone's
filing cabinets. Worst of all, trying to read such a monstrosity
from the beginning (i.e. bottom up) is a nightmare. If books were
printed that way, they would start with the last chapter, followed
by the second-to-last one, all the way down to the first chapter,
which appears at the end. Reading such a book in order would be a
supreme pain in the ass.

I realize that this habit has gotten so ingrained that it'll
probably never be eradicated. But I don't have to like it.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Life is perverse.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | It can be beautiful -
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | but it won't.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Lily Tomlin
Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer [message #411216 is a reply to message #411211] Fri, 24 September 2021 17:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
scott is currently offline  scott
Messages: 3944
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
> On Fri, 24 Sep 2021 17:16:55 GMT
> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Just because Outlook[1] vict^H^H^H^Husers succumb to its pressure to
>> top-post doesn't make it a Good Thing.
>
> At work (the environment Outlook was designed for) top posting
> above a full quote is exactly the right thing to do. This is because there
> is no list and so the entire thread has to be in every message so that if
> someone else is added to the discussion they get the entire context. It
> just means that when one of these monsters lands in the inbox you have to
> start reading from the bottom, but at least by the time you get to the top
> you know what they're on about.
>

Easily resolved if outlook would simply position the cursor at the
point of the new reply rather than at the start of the message when
reading new messages.
Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer [message #411217 is a reply to message #411211] Fri, 24 September 2021 17:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Jeff Gaines

On 24/09/2021 in message
<20210924190832.0e313ded01553756081c757e@eircom.net> Ahem A Rivet's Shot
wrote:

> At work (the environment Outlook was designed for) top posting
> above a full quote is exactly the right thing to do.

That's email, not Usenet posts. When you had to have some technical
knowledge to use a computer nobody top posted - email or Usenet - in fact
you would get chucked off mailing lists for top posting. It's only since
the hoi polloi started using email that top posting has been prevalent.

Some languages read left to right, some right to left, but they are all
read top to bottom.

--
Jeff Gaines Wiltshire UK
Those are my principles – and if you don’t like them, well, I have others.
(Groucho Marx)
Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer [message #411218 is a reply to message #411206] Fri, 24 September 2021 18:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Rich

In comp.os.linux.misc Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ok, I'll do that when you learn how to format text properly.
> Top posting is what emphaises is on, and, if lot of text, they
> will not even read what is written.

A: Because it reverses the normal top to bottom temporal order of
English language text.

Q: Why should one not top post?
Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer [message #411225 is a reply to message #411207] Fri, 24 September 2021 20:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Branimir Maksimovic

Ana He even didn't notice THAT I AM NOT TOP POSTING,
rateher put text on WHAT I AM REPLYING UNDER '--',
SIGNATURE :P

--
7-77-777
\|/
---
/|\d

On 2021-09-24, Andrea Croci <andrea.croci@gmx.de> wrote:
> Same here. I so much hate having to scroll down to read what I want to
> read, that could be just there for me to see.
>
> On 24.09.21 15:05, Branimir Maksimovic wrote:
>> Ok, I'll do that when you learn how to format text properly.
>> Top posting is what emphaises is on, and, if lot of text, they
>> will not even read what is written.
>> YES, CPC464 was very popular, and breaking SPEEDLOCK protections
>> as excercize :P
>> --
>> 7-77-777
>> \|/
>> /|\
>>
>> On 2021-09-24, Kerr-Mudd, John <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 24 Sep 2021 11:47:53 GMT Branimir Maksimovic
>>> <branimir.maksimovic@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I had CPC6128 2x64kb and FLOPPY! z80 CPU alright and CP/M OS. Worked in
>>>> bakershop in England to save money ti buy it. Learned to program on z80.
>>>>
>>>> -- 7-77-777 \|/ --- /|\
>>>>
>>> Please adopt usenet convention and post your reply text at the bottom,
>>> there's a good chap. And some judicious snipping would help too. (Yup I
>>> didn't do it last time, mea culpa).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 2021-09-24, Kerr-Mudd, John <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote:
>>>> > On Fri, 24 Sep 2021 00:21:01 +0200
>>> []
>>>> >
>>>> > Drifting; the Amstrad early version (z80 based) CPC464 had a builtin
>>>> > cassette recorder.
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -- Evil Sinner!
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>


--
Evil Sinner!
Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer [message #411227 is a reply to message #411209] Fri, 24 September 2021 20:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Branimir Maksimovic

OK, I am learning, bit NOT TOP POSTING, NOTE '--' SIGNATURE :P

--
7-77-777
\|/
---
/|\

On 2021-09-24, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> On 2021-09-24, Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Ok, I'll do that when you learn how to format text properly.
>
> Or when you learn to spell "OK" properly... :-)
>
>> Top posting is what emphaises is on, and, if lot of text, they
>> will not even read what is written.
>
> That only happens when people don't trim quoted text appropriately.
>
> If you can't be bothered taking the time to make your message
> easy to read, I can't be bothered taking the time to decipher it.
>
> Just because Outlook[1] vict^H^H^H^Husers succumb to its pressure to
> top-post doesn't make it a Good Thing.
>
> [1] Properly pronounced "Look out!"
>


--
Evil Sinner!
Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer [message #411230 is a reply to message #411216] Fri, 24 September 2021 20:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Branimir Maksimovic

> On 2021-09-24, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote: Ahem A Rivet's Shot
> <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
<...>
>
> Easily resolved if outlook would simply position the cursor at the point of
> the new reply rather than at the start of the message when reading new
> messages.
It is easy in VIM, just gq}, you have formated text and cursor position, BOTH.

--
7-77-777
\|/
---
/|\


--
Evil Sinner!
Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer [message #411231 is a reply to message #411217] Fri, 24 September 2021 20:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Branimir Maksimovic

On 2021-09-24, Jeff Gaines <jgaines_newsid@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

<...>
>
> Some languages read left to right, some right to left, but they are all read
> top to bottom.
>
Sure, but to make people *THINK* on WHAT YOU ARE REPLYING is MORE IMPORTANT.

--
7-77-777
\|/
---
/|\

--
Evil Sinner!
Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer [message #411232 is a reply to message #411218] Fri, 24 September 2021 20:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Branimir Maksimovic

On 2021-09-24, Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:
<...>
> A: Because it reverses the normal top to bottom temporal order of English
> language text.
>
> Q: Why should one not top post?
>
>
Because you break automatism and MAKE people AWARE of TEXT, because they
HAVE TO READ ALL in order to FIGURE OUT what you are replying.

--
7-77-777
\|/
---
/|\

--
Evil Sinner!
Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer [message #411236 is a reply to message #411225] Fri, 24 September 2021 21:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Aragorn is currently offline  Aragorn
Messages: 10
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Junior Member
On 25.09.2021 at 00:07, Branimir Maksimovic scribbled:

> Ana He even didn't notice THAT I AM NOT TOP POSTING,
> rateher put text on WHAT I AM REPLYING UNDER '--',
> SIGNATURE :P

1. Your signature delimiter is broken. It should be
"dash dash space", not "dash dash".

2. The signature should be no longer than four lines.

--
With respect,
= Aragorn =
Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer [message #411238 is a reply to message #411217] Fri, 24 September 2021 22:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4468
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 24 Sep 2021 21:05:57 GMT
"Jeff Gaines" <jgaines_newsid@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> On 24/09/2021 in message
> <20210924190832.0e313ded01553756081c757e@eircom.net> Ahem A Rivet's Shot
> wrote:
>
>> At work (the environment Outlook was designed for) top posting
>> above a full quote is exactly the right thing to do.
>
> That's email, not Usenet posts. When you had to have some technical

Correct, more to the point it is direct email not mailing list
email.

> knowledge to use a computer nobody top posted - email or Usenet - in fact

Mailing list or USENET correct. My point was that Outlook is not
designed for mailing lists or USENET it is designed for direct email in a
corporate setting where top posting and full quotes are appropriate in
complete contrast to USENET and mailing lists where they are not.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer [message #411239 is a reply to message #411216] Fri, 24 September 2021 22:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4468
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Fri, 24 Sep 2021 21:02:38 GMT
scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:

> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:

> Easily resolved if outlook would simply position the cursor at the
> point of the new reply rather than at the start of the message when
> reading new messages.

You have missed the point - in this context you want the replies to
be at the top and you want a complete copy of the entire thread. Interleaved
replies and snipping in that context is completely wrong it destroys
essential information.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer [message #411240 is a reply to message #411236] Fri, 24 September 2021 23:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Branimir Maksimovic

Corrected.

--
7-77-777
\|/
---
/|\
On 2021-09-25, Aragorn <thorongil@telenet.be> wrote:
> On 25.09.2021 at 00:07, Branimir Maksimovic scribbled:
>
>> Ana He even didn't notice THAT I AM NOT TOP POSTING,
>> rateher put text on WHAT I AM REPLYING UNDER '--',
>> SIGNATURE :P
>
> 1. Your signature delimiter is broken. It should be
> "dash dash space", not "dash dash".
>
> 2. The signature should be no longer than four lines.
>


--
Evil Sinner!
Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer [message #411241 is a reply to message #411236] Fri, 24 September 2021 23:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Branimir Maksimovic

Why just four lines?

--
7-77-777
\|/
---
/|\
On 2021-09-25, Aragorn <thorongil@telenet.be> wrote:
> On 25.09.2021 at 00:07, Branimir Maksimovic scribbled:
>
>> Ana He even didn't notice THAT I AM NOT TOP POSTING,
>> rateher put text on WHAT I AM REPLYING UNDER '--',
>> SIGNATURE :P
>
> 1. Your signature delimiter is broken. It should be
> "dash dash space", not "dash dash".
>
> 2. The signature should be no longer than four lines.
>


--
Evil Sinner!
Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer [message #411242 is a reply to message #411240] Sat, 25 September 2021 00:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Aragorn is currently offline  Aragorn
Messages: 10
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Junior Member
On 25.09.2021 at 03:51, Branimir Maksimovic scribbled:

> Corrected.

Not really. Your "signature" contains more than four lines, and your
message body contains no reference whatsoever as to what you are
replying to.

Most people on Usenet are subscribed to more than one newsgroup. Your
style of quoting makes that into a nightmare every time they stumble
upon your posts.

Usenet netiquette and convention stipulate that you would sbip the
irrelevant quoted content from your replies and that you write your own
replies underneath the remaining paragraphs in an interleaved fashion.

Any deviation from that standard makes the Usenet experience only
harder for everyone else, and needlessly so, because it really doesn't
cost any effort to do it right.

--
With respect,
= Aragorn =
Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer [message #411243 is a reply to message #411241] Sat, 25 September 2021 00:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Aragorn is currently offline  Aragorn
Messages: 10
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Junior Member
On 25.09.2021 at 03:52, Branimir Maksimovic scribbled:

> Why just four lines?

Netiquette. It's supposed to be a signature, not the Encyclopedia
Britanica.


--
With respect,
= Aragorn =
Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer [message #411244 is a reply to message #411243] Sat, 25 September 2021 01:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Sat, 25 Sep 2021 06:35:19 +0200, Aragorn <thorongil@telenet.be>
wrote:

> On 25.09.2021 at 03:52, Branimir Maksimovic scribbled:
>
>> Why just four lines?
>
> Netiquette. It's supposed to be a signature, not the Encyclopedia
> Britanica.

Geez, just plonk the twit.
Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer [message #411249 is a reply to message #411239] Sat, 25 September 2021 04:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Arne Luft is currently offline  Arne Luft
Messages: 301
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
> scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:

>> Easily resolved if outlook would simply position the cursor at the
>> point of the new reply rather than at the start of the message when
>> reading new messages.
>
> You have missed the point - in this context you want the replies to be
> at the top and you want a complete copy of the entire thread.

Anyone added to the discussion late has to read all the context
backwards. Speaking as someone is quite often added to discussions half
way through, that’s the opposite of what I want.

> Interleaved replies and snipping in that context is completely wrong
> it destroys essential information.

Interleaving and putting the new material at the top aren’t the only
options.

--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/
Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer [message #411250 is a reply to message #411232] Sat, 25 September 2021 05:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Stéphane CARPENTIER

Le 25-09-2021, Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@gmail.com> a écrit :
> On 2021-09-24, Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:
> <...>
>> A: Because it reverses the normal top to bottom temporal order of English
>> language text.
>>
>> Q: Why should one not top post?
>>
>>
> Because you break automatism and MAKE people AWARE of TEXT, because they
> HAVE TO READ ALL in order to FIGURE OUT what you are replying.

That's the purpose of removing everything out of context. Because usenet
is an asynchronous media, when you read the answer a week after, it can
be good to have a little context. It avoid the need to chose between
reading again the all message and reading nothing of it.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io
Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer [message #411252 is a reply to message #411242] Sat, 25 September 2021 07:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Branimir Maksimovic

On 2021-09-25, Aragorn <thorongil@telenet.be> wrote:
> On 25.09.2021 at 03:51, Branimir Maksimovic scribbled:
>
>> Corrected.
>
> Not really. Your "signature" contains more than four lines, and your
> message body contains no reference whatsoever as to what you are
> replying to.
>

Ok, I AM BACK TO SANITY.

--
7-77-777
Evil Sinner!
Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer [message #411253 is a reply to message #411243] Sat, 25 September 2021 07:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Branimir Maksimovic

On 2021-09-25, Aragorn <thorongil@telenet.be> wrote:
> On 25.09.2021 at 03:52, Branimir Maksimovic scribbled:
>
>> Why just four lines?
>
> Netiquette. It's supposed to be a signature, not the Encyclopedia
> Britanica.
>
>
understood. Will just quote on what i am replying...

--
7-77-777
Evil Sinner!
Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer [message #411255 is a reply to message #411250] Sat, 25 September 2021 07:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Branimir Maksimovic

On 2021-09-25, Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> wrote:
>>> Q: Why should one not top post?
>>>
>>>
>> Because you break automatism and MAKE people AWARE of TEXT, because they
>> HAVE TO READ ALL in order to FIGURE OUT what you are replying.
>
> That's the purpose of removing everything out of context. Because usenet
> is an asynchronous media, when you read the answer a week after, it can
> be good to have a little context. It avoid the need to chose between
> reading again the all message and reading nothing of it.
>
OK. LEARNED.

--
7-77-777
Evil Sinner!
Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer [message #411256 is a reply to message #411244] Sat, 25 September 2021 07:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Branimir Maksimovic

On 2021-09-25, J Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Sep 2021 06:35:19 +0200, Aragorn <thorongil@telenet.be>
> wrote:
>
>> On 25.09.2021 at 03:52, Branimir Maksimovic scribbled:
>>
>>> Why just four lines?
>>
>> Netiquette. It's supposed to be a signature, not the Encyclopedia
>> Britanica.
>
> Geez, just plonk the twit.
Score file or kill file or filter is for weak minded, ones that could
not stand what is written :P
Just don't reply and relax, it's much better exercize :P
--
7-77-777
Evil Sinner!
Re: Obit - Sir Clive Sinclair, Computing Pioneer [message #411259 is a reply to message #411231] Sat, 25 September 2021 09:44 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Stéphane CARPENTIER

Le 25-09-2021, Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@gmail.com> a écrit :
> On 2021-09-24, Jeff Gaines <jgaines_newsid@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> <...>
>>
>> Some languages read left to right, some right to left, but they are all read
>> top to bottom.
>>
> Sure, but to make people *THINK* on WHAT YOU ARE REPLYING is MORE IMPORTANT.

Yes, when I read a message, if if see I need a little bit context, I'll
read the short quotation above. I'll never read the long message bellow
and I'll consider the message as useless.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io
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