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What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work? [message #410715] Sun, 05 September 2021 05:55 Go to next message
faux_dameron is currently offline  faux_dameron
Messages: 31
Registered: May 2020
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Member
I know this is an odd question, so let me explain what I'm thinking.

First of all, what is "real work"? Let's say that you're a Linux/Unix/BSD
system administrator who spends 90% of his day on the command line. What is
the oldest computer that he could get by with to do his job?

For example: Could you rig up a serial connection from a modern PC to a C64
to get a command prompt on the C64 to use as the interface for the command
line? Sure, it would demote the C64 to a "dumb terminal" but could it work?

These are the kinds of things that I would like to hear about on this group.

Jason
Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work? [message #410721 is a reply to message #410715] Sun, 05 September 2021 06:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: gareth evans

On 05/09/2021 10:55, Jason Evans wrote:
> I know this is an odd question, so let me explain what I'm thinking.
>
> First of all, what is "real work"? Let's say that you're a Linux/Unix/BSD
> system administrator who spends 90% of his day on the command line. What is
> the oldest computer that he could get by with to do his job?
>
> For example: Could you rig up a serial connection from a modern PC to a C64
> to get a command prompt on the C64 to use as the interface for the command
> line? Sure, it would demote the C64 to a "dumb terminal" but could it work?
>
> These are the kinds of things that I would like to hear about on this group.

Well, by jerking the slide from the middle of your slide rule, you could
use it to move the pebbles of your abacus.
Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work? [message #410734 is a reply to message #410715] Sun, 05 September 2021 12:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Grant Taylor

On 9/5/21 3:55 AM, Jason Evans wrote:
> First of all, what is "real work"? Let's say that you're a
> Linux/Unix/BSD system administrator who spends 90% of his day on the
> command line. What is the oldest computer that he could get by with
> to do his job?

The problem is the remaining 10%. (I'm re-using your numbers.)

IMM/RSA/iLO/LOM/iDRAC/etc consoles that are inherently GUI which are
invaluable when recovering systems during outages.

Don't forget that email clients /almost/ *need* to be GUI to display
more than simple text ~> attachments. -- We can't forget the venerable
Power Point slides that we need to look at before the next meeting.

I would be remiss if I didn't mention video chat, especially with work
from home that is quite common for the last ~18 months. Not to mention
conference rooms for geographically disperse team meetings.

I don't know about you, but I would have a problem justifying my
employment if I didn't participate in that 10%. And I'm quite sure that
CLI /only/ is not sufficient to do so.

I leave you with ...

Link - Terminal forever | CommitStrip
- https://www.commitstrip.com/en/2016/12/22/terminal-forever/



--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work? [message #410751 is a reply to message #410715] Sun, 05 September 2021 22:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Michael Trew

On 9/5/2021 5:55 AM, Jason Evans wrote:
> I know this is an odd question, so let me explain what I'm thinking.
>
> First of all, what is "real work"? Let's say that you're a Linux/Unix/BSD
> system administrator who spends 90% of his day on the command line. What is
> the oldest computer that he could get by with to do his job?
>
> For example: Could you rig up a serial connection from a modern PC to a C64
> to get a command prompt on the C64 to use as the interface for the command
> line? Sure, it would demote the C64 to a "dumb terminal" but could it work?
>
> These are the kinds of things that I would like to hear about on this group.
>
> Jason


I have an IBM Datamaster/System 23 in my basement that is functional
with its original dot matrix printer. I'd have to imagine it can still
do some basic functions like some kind of word processing. I have boxes
and boxes of 8" floppies as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_System/23_Datamaster
Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work? [message #410755 is a reply to message #410751] Mon, 06 September 2021 00:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Sun, 05 Sep 2021 22:54:18 -0400, Michael Trew
<michael.trew@att.net> wrote:

> On 9/5/2021 5:55 AM, Jason Evans wrote:
>> I know this is an odd question, so let me explain what I'm thinking.
>>
>> First of all, what is "real work"? Let's say that you're a Linux/Unix/BSD
>> system administrator who spends 90% of his day on the command line. What is
>> the oldest computer that he could get by with to do his job?
>>
>> For example: Could you rig up a serial connection from a modern PC to a C64
>> to get a command prompt on the C64 to use as the interface for the command
>> line? Sure, it would demote the C64 to a "dumb terminal" but could it work?
>>
>> These are the kinds of things that I would like to hear about on this group.
>>
>> Jason
>
>
> I have an IBM Datamaster/System 23 in my basement that is functional
> with its original dot matrix printer. I'd have to imagine it can still
> do some basic functions like some kind of word processing. I have boxes
> and boxes of 8" floppies as well.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_System/23_Datamaster

You can run Unix from a teletype. Not something anyone in their right
mind wants to do these days but you can do it.

The real work in this case is running the Unix system and you already
have a computer if you do that.
Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work? [message #410756 is a reply to message #410755] Mon, 06 September 2021 02:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
faux_dameron is currently offline  faux_dameron
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Registered: May 2020
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On Mon, 06 Sep 2021 00:06:43 -0400, J. Clarke wrote:

> You can run Unix from a teletype. Not something anyone in their right
> mind wants to do these days but you can do it.

Linux via ham radio RTTY would be stupid and awesome, lol.
Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work? [message #410761 is a reply to message #410756] Mon, 06 September 2021 04:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4468
Registered: January 2012
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Senior Member
On Mon, 6 Sep 2021 06:30:46 -0000 (UTC)
Jason Evans <jsevans@mailfence.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 06 Sep 2021 00:06:43 -0400, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> You can run Unix from a teletype. Not something anyone in their right
>> mind wants to do these days but you can do it.
>
> Linux via ham radio RTTY would be stupid and awesome, lol.

Erm KA9Q was originally TCP/IP over souped up RTTY (aka packet
radio) was it not. OK it was not Linux (that was still in the future) but
it did come with email, usenet, ftp and a multi-tasking kernel to run them
under messy dos - I never saw the CP/M version but 64K is awfully tight for
TCP/IP.

It was awesome and far from stupid.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work? [message #410762 is a reply to message #410761] Mon, 06 September 2021 06:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: gareth evans

On 06/09/2021 09:14, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Mon, 6 Sep 2021 06:30:46 -0000 (UTC)
> Jason Evans <jsevans@mailfence.com> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 06 Sep 2021 00:06:43 -0400, J. Clarke wrote:
>>
>>> You can run Unix from a teletype. Not something anyone in their right
>>> mind wants to do these days but you can do it.
>>
>> Linux via ham radio RTTY would be stupid and awesome, lol.
>
> Erm KA9Q was originally TCP/IP over souped up RTTY (aka packet
> radio) was it not. OK it was not Linux (that was still in the future) but
> it did come with email, usenet, ftp and a multi-tasking kernel to run them
> under messy dos - I never saw the CP/M version but 64K is awfully tight for
> TCP/IP.
>
> It was awesome and far from stupid.
>

One needs to be careful about terminology.

RTTY in Ham Radio terms means ITA No2, 5-unit start-stop stuff with
the awkward Figure Shift and Letter Shift keys.

Packet Radio was something else, I know not what, but certainly
8-bit character transmissions.

Gareth G4SDW
Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work? [message #410763 is a reply to message #410762] Mon, 06 September 2021 07:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
faux_dameron is currently offline  faux_dameron
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Registered: May 2020
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Member
On Mon, 6 Sep 2021 11:55:48 +0100, gareth evans wrote:

>>>> You can run Unix from a teletype. Not something anyone in their
>
> RTTY in Ham Radio terms means ITA No2, 5-unit start-stop stuff with the
> awkward Figure Shift and Letter Shift keys.
>
> Packet Radio was something else, I know not what, but certainly 8-bit
> character transmissions.
>
> Gareth G4SDW

When J Clarke mentioned teletype, I immediately thought of radioteletype
i.e. RTTY and that's why I mentioned it.

Jason KI4GMX
Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work? [message #410764 is a reply to message #410761] Mon, 06 September 2021 07:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
faux_dameron is currently offline  faux_dameron
Messages: 31
Registered: May 2020
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On Mon, 6 Sep 2021 09:14:41 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

> Erm KA9Q was originally TCP/IP over souped up RTTY (aka packet
> radio) was it not. OK it was not Linux (that was still in the future)
> but it did come with email, usenet, ftp and a multi-tasking kernel to
> run them under messy dos - I never saw the CP/M version but 64K is
> awfully tight for TCP/IP.
>
> It was awesome and far from stupid.

I meanth "stupid" only in the amount of time and effort it would take to
use an old radioteletype machine as an interface with as a linux console.
It does sound very awesome, though!
Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work? [message #410771 is a reply to message #410756] Mon, 06 September 2021 13:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Grant Taylor

On 9/6/21 12:30 AM, Jason Evans wrote:
> Linux via ham radio RTTY would be stupid and awesome, lol.

It's not ham radio RTTY, but it is darned close.

Link - Curious Marc tweets from a TTY.
- https://twitter.com/curious_marc/status/1253216773370867717



--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work? [message #410772 is a reply to message #410761] Mon, 06 September 2021 13:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Grant Taylor

On 9/6/21 2:14 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> Erm KA9Q was originally TCP/IP over souped up RTTY (aka packet radio)
> was it not. OK it was not Linux (that was still in the future) but
> it did come with email, usenet, ftp and a multi-tasking kernel to
> run them under messy dos - I never saw the CP/M version but 64K is
> awfully tight for TCP/IP.

Was it Usenet (UUCP / NNTP) or FTP proper? Or was it other non-standard
services that provided similar function to the proper services?

Many BBSs, both radio and non-radio, of the time provided similar
functionality without using /Internet/ standard protocols for doing so.

> It was awesome and far from stupid.

~chuckle~



--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work? [message #410774 is a reply to message #410751] Mon, 06 September 2021 13:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
Messages: 7970
Registered: December 2011
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Senior Member
Michael Trew <michael.trew@att.net> wrote:
> On 9/5/2021 5:55 AM, Jason Evans wrote:
>> I know this is an odd question, so let me explain what I'm thinking.
>>
>> First of all, what is "real work"? Let's say that you're a Linux/Unix/BSD
>> system administrator who spends 90% of his day on the command line. What is
>> the oldest computer that he could get by with to do his job?
>>
>> For example: Could you rig up a serial connection from a modern PC to a C64
>> to get a command prompt on the C64 to use as the interface for the command
>> line? Sure, it would demote the C64 to a "dumb terminal" but could it work?
>>
>> These are the kinds of things that I would like to hear about on this group.
>>
>> Jason
>
>
> I have an IBM Datamaster/System 23 in my basement that is functional
> with its original dot matrix printer. I'd have to imagine it can still
> do some basic functions like some kind of word processing. I have boxes
> and boxes of 8" floppies as well.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_System/23_Datamaster
>

This is kind of a bizarre question. Any computer could be used for ‘real
work” today. They did their thing years ago, and could still do,the same
kinds of things today: statistics, engineering calculations, payroll,
inventory, etc. I was going to say the IBM 1130, but just realized all
could. Obviously no internet, and things like graphics and relational
databases that require gobs of memory would be out.

--
Pete
Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work? [message #410781 is a reply to message #410772] Mon, 06 September 2021 15:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4468
Registered: January 2012
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Senior Member
On Mon, 6 Sep 2021 11:44:57 -0600
Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> wrote:

> On 9/6/21 2:14 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>> Erm KA9Q was originally TCP/IP over souped up RTTY (aka packet radio)
>> was it not. OK it was not Linux (that was still in the future) but
>> it did come with email, usenet, ftp and a multi-tasking kernel to
>> run them under messy dos - I never saw the CP/M version but 64K is
>> awfully tight for TCP/IP.
>
> Was it Usenet (UUCP / NNTP) or FTP proper? Or was it other non-standard
> services that provided similar function to the proper services?

It was the real thing, there was a pretty good TCP/IP stack in there
and a multi-tasking kernel, the applications were pluggable at build time
but most settled on a variant of Elm for email backed by an SMTP server,
Tin for USENET (NNRP) and I forget where the usual ftp client originated.
When Demon Internet first started offering dial up connections with a
static IP address KA9Q was the standard offering for messy dos.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work? [message #410783 is a reply to message #410781] Mon, 06 September 2021 16:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: snipeco.2

Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

> On Mon, 6 Sep 2021 11:44:57 -0600
> Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> wrote:
>
>> On 9/6/21 2:14 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>> Erm KA9Q was originally TCP/IP over souped up RTTY (aka packet radio)
>>> was it not. OK it was not Linux (that was still in the future) but
>>> it did come with email, usenet, ftp and a multi-tasking kernel to
>>> run them under messy dos - I never saw the CP/M version but 64K is
>>> awfully tight for TCP/IP.
>>
>> Was it Usenet (UUCP / NNTP) or FTP proper? Or was it other non-standard
>> services that provided similar function to the proper services?
>
> It was the real thing, there was a pretty good TCP/IP stack in there
> and a multi-tasking kernel, the applications were pluggable at build time
> but most settled on a variant of Elm for email backed by an SMTP server,
> Tin for USENET (NNRP) and I forget where the usual ftp client originated.
> When Demon Internet first started offering dial up connections with a
> static IP address KA9Q was the standard offering for messy dos.

It worked very well; I began by using KA9Q too, in 1994 with Demon.

--
^Ï^ <https://youtu.be/_kqytf31a8E>

My pet rock Gordon just is.
Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work? [message #410785 is a reply to message #410781] Mon, 06 September 2021 16:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Grant Taylor

On 9/6/21 1:07 PM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> It was the real thing, there was a pretty good TCP/IP stack in there
> and a multi-tasking kernel, the applications were pluggable at build
> time but most settled on a variant of Elm for email backed by an
> SMTP server, Tin for USENET (NNRP) and I forget where the usual ftp
> client originated. When Demon Internet first started offering dial
> up connections with a static IP address KA9Q was the standard offering
> for messy dos.

Interesting.

Thank you for confirming.

TIL :-)



--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work? [message #410791 is a reply to message #410715] Sun, 05 September 2021 23:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: John Goerzen

On 2021-09-05, Jason Evans <jsevans@mailfence.com> wrote:
> First of all, what is "real work"? Let's say that you're a Linux/Unix/BSD
> system administrator who spends 90% of his day on the command line. What is

.... that fits...

> the oldest computer that he could get by with to do his job?

So I'm going to be "that guy" that says "it depends on what you mean by
computer."

So I have a DEC vt510 that I do still use. It has a serial connection to a
Raspberry Pi, from which I can ssh wherever. I actually enjoy using it as a
"focus mode" break. It was sold as an ANSI terminal. Is it a computer? Well,
it has an 8080 in it IIRC. I do actually use it for doing work on my job from
time to time too.

I also have a Linux box, more modern, that is a Micro PC I used to do backups.
It doesn't permit ssh or such for security reasons. My only way into it is via
serial console or local console. So the vt510 can hook up to that and it is
then doing actual work too. I also have older terminals.

What about older general-purpose machines? I've seen plenty of DOS still
kicking around. Various industrial machinery still uses DOS machines as
controllers or programmers. A lot of time they are running on more modern
hardware, but also a lot of time they wouldn't NEED to be; that's just what is
out there. So that takes us back firmly into the 80s.

The DEC PDP-10 was introduced in 1966 and was famously used by CompuServe up
until at least 2007, 41 years later.

Here's an article from 2008 about how Seattle still uses DEC VAXes (released
1977):
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/education/dinosaur -computer-stalls-seattle-schools-plans/

Here's an article from just last year about how Kansas is still using a
mainframe from 1977 to manage unemployment claims:
https://www.kctv5.com/coronavirus/kansas-department-of-labor -mainframe-is-from-1977/article_40459370-7ac4-11ea-b4db-df52 9463a7d4.html

No word on what precise type of mainframe that is.
https://www.dol.ks.gov/documents/20121/85583/KDOL+Modernizat ion+Timeline.pdf/d186de09-851b-d996-d235-ad6fb9286fcb?versio n=1.0&t=1620335465573
gives a clue that it may be some sort of IBM something.
https://governor.kansas.gov/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Ginth erTaxCouncilKDOT.pdf
hints that it may be an IBM System 370/Model 145.

> For example: Could you rig up a serial connection from a modern PC to a C64
> to get a command prompt on the C64 to use as the interface for the command
> line? Sure, it would demote the C64 to a "dumb terminal" but could it work?

The display resolution may be tricky, but an old IBM PC certainly would.

- John
Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work? [message #410793 is a reply to message #410774] Mon, 06 September 2021 23:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Robin Vowels is currently offline  Robin Vowels
Messages: 381
Registered: July 2012
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Senior Member
On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 3:56:11 AM UTC+10, Peter Flass wrote:
> Michael Trew <michae...@att.net> wrote:
>> On 9/5/2021 5:55 AM, Jason Evans wrote:
>>> I know this is an odd question, so let me explain what I'm thinking.
>>>
>>> First of all, what is "real work"? Let's say that you're a Linux/Unix/BSD
>>> system administrator who spends 90% of his day on the command line. What is
>>> the oldest computer that he could get by with to do his job?
>>>
>>> For example: Could you rig up a serial connection from a modern PC to a C64
>>> to get a command prompt on the C64 to use as the interface for the command
>>> line? Sure, it would demote the C64 to a "dumb terminal" but could it work?
>>>
>>> These are the kinds of things that I would like to hear about on this group.
>>>
>>> Jason
>>
>>
>> I have an IBM Datamaster/System 23 in my basement that is functional
>> with its original dot matrix printer. I'd have to imagine it can still
>> do some basic functions like some kind of word processing. I have boxes
>> and boxes of 8" floppies as well.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_System/23_Datamaster
>>
> This is kind of a bizarre question. Any computer could be used for ‘real
> work” today. They did their thing years ago, and could still do,the same
> kinds of things today: statistics, engineering calculations, payroll,
> inventory, etc. I was going to say the IBM 1130, but just realized all
> could. Obviously no internet, and things like graphics and relational
> databases that require gobs of memory would be out.

Early computers had "gobs of memory" via endless numbers of
punch cards, endless lengths of paper tape and/or magnetic tape.
Some even had graphics. Yesterday I came across a subroutine for
DEUCE, written in 1955, that rotated the display by 90 degrees.
On that same computer was an animated version of a mouse
finding its way around a maze; also of "hickory dickory dock"
with sound effects; and noughts and crosses [tic-tac-toe].
Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work? [message #410795 is a reply to message #410791] Tue, 07 September 2021 01:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Mon, 6 Sep 2021 03:39:29 -0000 (UTC), John Goerzen
<jgoerzen@complete.org> wrote:

> On 2021-09-05, Jason Evans <jsevans@mailfence.com> wrote:
>> First of all, what is "real work"? Let's say that you're a Linux/Unix/BSD
>> system administrator who spends 90% of his day on the command line. What is
>
> ... that fits...
>
>> the oldest computer that he could get by with to do his job?
>
> So I'm going to be "that guy" that says "it depends on what you mean by
> computer."
>
> So I have a DEC vt510 that I do still use. It has a serial connection to a
> Raspberry Pi, from which I can ssh wherever. I actually enjoy using it as a
> "focus mode" break. It was sold as an ANSI terminal. Is it a computer? Well,
> it has an 8080 in it IIRC. I do actually use it for doing work on my job from
> time to time too.
>
> I also have a Linux box, more modern, that is a Micro PC I used to do backups.
> It doesn't permit ssh or such for security reasons. My only way into it is via
> serial console or local console. So the vt510 can hook up to that and it is
> then doing actual work too. I also have older terminals.
>
> What about older general-purpose machines? I've seen plenty of DOS still
> kicking around. Various industrial machinery still uses DOS machines as
> controllers or programmers. A lot of time they are running on more modern
> hardware, but also a lot of time they wouldn't NEED to be; that's just what is
> out there. So that takes us back firmly into the 80s.
>
> The DEC PDP-10 was introduced in 1966 and was famously used by CompuServe up
> until at least 2007, 41 years later.
>
> Here's an article from 2008 about how Seattle still uses DEC VAXes (released
> 1977):
> https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/education/dinosaur -computer-stalls-seattle-schools-plans/
>
> Here's an article from just last year about how Kansas is still using a
> mainframe from 1977 to manage unemployment claims:
> https://www.kctv5.com/coronavirus/kansas-department-of-labor -mainframe-is-from-1977/article_40459370-7ac4-11ea-b4db-df52 9463a7d4.html
>
> No word on what precise type of mainframe that is.
> https://www.dol.ks.gov/documents/20121/85583/KDOL+Modernizat ion+Timeline.pdf/d186de09-851b-d996-d235-ad6fb9286fcb?versio n=1.0&t=1620335465573
> gives a clue that it may be some sort of IBM something.
> https://governor.kansas.gov/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Ginth erTaxCouncilKDOT.pdf
> hints that it may be an IBM System 370/Model 145.

I'd be very surprised if it actually was. When did IBM end
maintenance on those?

>> For example: Could you rig up a serial connection from a modern PC to a C64
>> to get a command prompt on the C64 to use as the interface for the command
>> line? Sure, it would demote the C64 to a "dumb terminal" but could it work?
>
> The display resolution may be tricky, but an old IBM PC certainly would.
>
> - John
Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work? [message #410806 is a reply to message #410791] Tue, 07 September 2021 11:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
scott is currently offline  scott
Messages: 3944
Registered: February 2012
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Senior Member
John Goerzen <jgoerzen@complete.org> writes:
> On 2021-09-05, Jason Evans <jsevans@mailfence.com> wrote:
>> First of all, what is "real work"? Let's say that you're a Linux/Unix/BSD
>> system administrator who spends 90% of his day on the command line. What is

>
> The DEC PDP-10 was introduced in 1966 and was famously used by CompuServe up
> until at least 2007, 41 years later.
>
> Here's an article from 2008 about how Seattle still uses DEC VAXes (released
> 1977):
> https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/education/dinosaur -computer-stalls-seattle-schools-plans/
>
> Here's an article from just last year about how Kansas is still using a
> mainframe from 1977 to manage unemployment claims:
> https://www.kctv5.com/coronavirus/kansas-department-of-labor -mainframe-is-from-1977/article_40459370-7ac4-11ea-b4db-df52 9463a7d4.html

Burroughs medium systems, introduced in 1965, were still running the city of
Santa Ana until 2010 (that system was donated to the Living Computer Museum
who ran it for a couple of years thereafter.

I've a Burroughs/Unisys T27 block-mode terminal hooked up to a medium systems simulator that
still runs today.
Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work? [message #410807 is a reply to message #410715] Tue, 07 September 2021 11:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Michael Trew

On 9/6/2021 4:11 PM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
> On Sun, 05 Sep 2021 22:54:18 -0400, Michael Trew wrote:
>>
>> On 9/5/2021 5:55 AM, Jason Evans wrote:
>>> I know this is an odd question, so let me explain what I'm thinking.
>>>
>>> First of all, what is "real work"? Let's say that you're a Linux/Unix/BSD
>>> system administrator who spends 90% of his day on the command line. What is
>>> the oldest computer that he could get by with to do his job?
>>>
>>> For example: Could you rig up a serial connection from a modern PC to a C64
>>> to get a command prompt on the C64 to use as the interface for the command
>>> line? Sure, it would demote the C64 to a "dumb terminal" but could it work?
>>>
>>> These are the kinds of things that I would like to hear about on this group.
>>>
>>> Jason
>>
>>
>> I have an IBM Datamaster/System 23 in my basement that is functional
>> with its original dot matrix printer. I'd have to imagine it can
>> still do some basic functions like some kind of word processing. I
>> have boxes and boxes of 8" floppies as well.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_System/23_Datamaster
>
> Read about this long ago. Is considered by many to be the "first
> PC". Reminds me on the Apple Lisa which went the right direction but was
> too expensive. So the little less capable but more successful McIntosh
> was released.

I have most all of the manuals as well. It was used as a database in a
radio station in the early 80's. I never actually sat down and figured
out how it works, but it does boot when you flip the switch; numbers
come up on the green screen.
Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work? [message #410808 is a reply to message #410807] Tue, 07 September 2021 12:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: drb

> I have most all of the manuals as well. It was used as a database in a
> radio station in the early 80's. I never actually sat down and figured
> out how it works, but it does boot when you flip the switch; numbers
> come up on the green screen.

User programming is done in BASIC. It's a curious implementation, with
a lot of fairly powerful stuff for business applications, statement
labels, some sort-of cursor editing of statements. Most IBM supplied
utilities are not in BASIC; I think it may have been possible for some
ecosystem developers to get the tooling to do assembler or maybe
compiled development.

There were two types of base machine: the all-in-one type, and a floor
standing one with separate screen and keyboard. Peripherals included
several printers, a twinax-based network for interconnecting stations,
and a hard disk unit that could be shared across the network. 8085
processor, paged address space so that the machine can (and does) have
well over 64k of RAM, and quite a bit of ROM too.

IBM sold various software for them, including a menu-driven application
development system that wrote BASIC applications. There was at least
a small third party ecosystem.

De
Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work? [message #410833 is a reply to message #410795] Tue, 07 September 2021 09:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: John Goerzen

On 2021-09-07, J Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>> https://governor.kansas.gov/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Ginth erTaxCouncilKDOT.pdf
>> hints that it may be an IBM System 370/Model 145.
>
> I'd be very surprised if it actually was. When did IBM end
> maintenance on those?

I have no more information, other than that link claims "The Kansas UI System
runs on a Mainframe that was installed in 1977."

Is it possible the hardware was upgraded to something that can emulate the
370/145, and that difference was lost on a non-technical author? Sure.

I have known other places to run mainframes an absurdly long time. I've seen it
in universities and, of course, there's the famous CompuServe PDP-10 story -
though presumably they had more technical know-how to keep their PDP-10s alive.
You are right; it does seem farfetched.

.... so I did some more digging, and found
https://ldh.la.gov/assets/medicaid/mmis/docs/IVVRProcurement Library/Section3RelevantCorporateExperienceCorporateFinancia lCondition.doc
which claims that the "legacy UI system applications run on the Kansas
Department of Administration's OBM OS/390 mainframe."

I know little of IBM's mainframe lineup, but
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_System/390 claims that the System/390 has some
level of compatibility with the S/370.

- John
Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work? [message #410834 is a reply to message #410833] Wed, 08 September 2021 00:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Tue, 7 Sep 2021 13:06:16 -0000 (UTC), John Goerzen
<jgoerzen@complete.org> wrote:

> On 2021-09-07, J Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> https://governor.kansas.gov/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Ginth erTaxCouncilKDOT.pdf
>>> hints that it may be an IBM System 370/Model 145.
>>
>> I'd be very surprised if it actually was. When did IBM end
>> maintenance on those?
>
> I have no more information, other than that link claims "The Kansas UI System
> runs on a Mainframe that was installed in 1977."
>
> Is it possible the hardware was upgraded to something that can emulate the
> 370/145, and that difference was lost on a non-technical author? Sure.

A brand new Z can emulate the 370/145. So can my Raspberry Pi if I
don't expect any performance.

> I have known other places to run mainframes an absurdly long time. I've seen it
> in universities and, of course, there's the famous CompuServe PDP-10 story -
> though presumably they had more technical know-how to keep their PDP-10s alive.
> You are right; it does seem farfetched.
>
> ... so I did some more digging, and found
> https://ldh.la.gov/assets/medicaid/mmis/docs/IVVRProcurement Library/Section3RelevantCorporateExperienceCorporateFinancia lCondition.doc
> which claims that the "legacy UI system applications run on the Kansas
> Department of Administration's OBM OS/390 mainframe."
>
> I know little of IBM's mainframe lineup, but
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_System/390 claims that the System/390 has some
> level of compatibility with the S/370.

From the 360 on, application-level backwards compatibility has been
maintained. I occasionally encounter code today that has dated
comments from the '70s. The OS is tuned for the specific hardware and
new features are provided, but application programmers don't generally
deal with that.

We just transferred our entire system to new hardware, was done over a
weekend. That's a system that manages a Fortune 100 financial
services company.

A common misconception among people who don't work with mainframes is
that the mainframe you have today is the same as the one that was
installed in the mid '60s. They don't understand that the modern
mainframe is just that, with numerous cores, vast quantities of RAM,
and very high clock speeds that can be sustained under any workload.
Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work? [message #410839 is a reply to message #410834] Wed, 08 September 2021 03:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4468
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Wed, 08 Sep 2021 00:00:04 -0400
J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:

> We just transferred our entire system to new hardware, was done over a
> weekend. That's a system that manages a Fortune 100 financial
> services company.

In some circles they just throw new hardware into the racks and tell
the virtual swarm coordinator that runs their systems where to find the new
hardware or tell the coordinator to stop using an obsolete machine so they
can pull it. The systems never notice.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work? [message #410844 is a reply to message #410833] Wed, 08 September 2021 14:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
Messages: 7970
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
John Goerzen <jgoerzen@complete.org> wrote:
> On 2021-09-07, J Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> https://governor.kansas.gov/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Ginth erTaxCouncilKDOT.pdf
>>> hints that it may be an IBM System 370/Model 145.
>>
>> I'd be very surprised if it actually was. When did IBM end
>> maintenance on those?
>
> I have no more information, other than that link claims "The Kansas UI System
> runs on a Mainframe that was installed in 1977."
>
> Is it possible the hardware was upgraded to something that can emulate the
> 370/145, and that difference was lost on a non-technical author? Sure.
>
> I have known other places to run mainframes an absurdly long time. I've seen it
> in universities and, of course, there's the famous CompuServe PDP-10 story -
> though presumably they had more technical know-how to keep their PDP-10s alive.
> You are right; it does seem farfetched.
>
> ... so I did some more digging, and found
> https://ldh.la.gov/assets/medicaid/mmis/docs/IVVRProcurement Library/Section3RelevantCorporateExperienceCorporateFinancia lCondition.doc
> which claims that the "legacy UI system applications run on the Kansas
> Department of Administration's OBM OS/390 mainframe."
>
> I know little of IBM's mainframe lineup, but
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_System/390 claims that the System/390 has some
> level of compatibility with the S/370.
>
> - John
>

You can still run programs compiled on a 360 on the latest “z” box.

--
Pete
Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work? [message #410848 is a reply to message #410844] Wed, 08 September 2021 18:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: John Goerzen

On 2021-09-08, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> You can still run programs compiled on a 360 on the latest “z” box.

I gotta say - that's darn impressive. I'm not aware of anything else that
maintains compatibility that long; am I missing anything?
Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work? [message #410849 is a reply to message #410848] Wed, 08 September 2021 20:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dan Espen is currently offline  Dan Espen
Messages: 3749
Registered: January 2012
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Senior Member
John Goerzen <jgoerzen@complete.org> writes:

> On 2021-09-08, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> You can still run programs compiled on a 360 on the latest “z” box.
>
> I gotta say - that's darn impressive. I'm not aware of anything else that
> maintains compatibility that long; am I missing anything?

Nope. S/360 in it's various flavors is the only survivor of that era.

Before then, IBM kept introducing new incompatible models each one
programmed in it's assembly language. The promise of S/360 was that
you would never again have to throw out your massive investment in
software.

Object code will still run.

--
Dan Espen
Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work? [message #410850 is a reply to message #410849] Wed, 08 September 2021 21:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
John Levine is currently offline  John Levine
Messages: 1297
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
According to Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>:
> John Goerzen <jgoerzen@complete.org> writes:
>
>> On 2021-09-08, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> You can still run programs compiled on a 360 on the latest “z” box.
>>
>> I gotta say - that's darn impressive. I'm not aware of anything else that
>> maintains compatibility that long; am I missing anything?
>
> Nope. S/360 in it's various flavors is the only survivor of that era.

I thought the Unisys Clearpath machines still run Unival 1100 code from the 1960s.

--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work? [message #410852 is a reply to message #410850] Wed, 08 September 2021 22:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Thu, 9 Sep 2021 01:59:49 -0000 (UTC), John Levine <johnl@taugh.com>
wrote:

> According to Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>:
>> John Goerzen <jgoerzen@complete.org> writes:
>>
>>> On 2021-09-08, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> You can still run programs compiled on a 360 on the latest “z” box.
>>>
>>> I gotta say - that's darn impressive. I'm not aware of anything else that
>>> maintains compatibility that long; am I missing anything?
>>
>> Nope. S/360 in it's various flavors is the only survivor of that era.
>
> I thought the Unisys Clearpath machines still run Unival 1100 code from the 1960s.

Unisys Clearpath is an emulator running on Intel. IBM implements the
Z in purpose-made hardware.
Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work? [message #410853 is a reply to message #410852] Thu, 09 September 2021 01:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Grant Taylor

On 9/8/21 8:24 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> Unisys Clearpath is an emulator running on Intel. IBM implements
> the Z in purpose-made hardware.

IBM implements it in microcode. Which is as much software as it is
hardware.



--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work? [message #410855 is a reply to message #410853] Thu, 09 September 2021 01:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Wed, 8 Sep 2021 23:14:42 -0600, Grant Taylor
<gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> wrote:

> On 9/8/21 8:24 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> Unisys Clearpath is an emulator running on Intel. IBM implements
>> the Z in purpose-made hardware.
>
> IBM implements it in microcode. Which is as much software as it is
> hardware.

They did once. Do they still when they have from a 360 architecture
viewpoint vast quantities of silicon real estate to play with?
Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work? [message #410857 is a reply to message #410834] Thu, 09 September 2021 09:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Thomas Koenig

J Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> schrieb:
> On Tue, 7 Sep 2021 13:06:16 -0000 (UTC), John Goerzen
> <jgoerzen@complete.org> wrote:
>
>> On 2021-09-07, J Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> https://governor.kansas.gov/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Ginth erTaxCouncilKDOT.pdf
>>>> hints that it may be an IBM System 370/Model 145.
>>>
>>> I'd be very surprised if it actually was. When did IBM end
>>> maintenance on those?
>>
>> I have no more information, other than that link claims "The Kansas UI System
>> runs on a Mainframe that was installed in 1977."
>>
>> Is it possible the hardware was upgraded to something that can emulate the
>> 370/145, and that difference was lost on a non-technical author? Sure.
>
> A brand new Z can emulate the 370/145. So can my Raspberry Pi if I
> don't expect any performance.

Surely, a higher performance than the original? Bitsavers claims that

"The Model 145 has a variable-length CPU cycle time. Cycle times of
202.5, 247.5, 292.5, and 315 nanoseconds are implemented. The time
required for the CPU to perform operations is made up of combinations of
these cycles. The CPU fetches instructions from processor storage a
doubleword at a time, while data accesses, both fetches and stores, are
made on a word basis. Eight instruction bytes or four data bytes can be
fetched by the CPU in 540 nanoseconds."

Variable-length CPU cycle time sounds strange, but the clock ran at
somewhere between 3.2 and 5 MZh. Not sure what sort of Pi you
have, but even a 700 MHz ARMv6 should be able to run rings around
that old machine in emulation with a factor of more than 100 in
CPU cycle time.
Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work? [message #410861 is a reply to message #410855] Thu, 09 September 2021 13:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Grant Taylor

On 9/8/21 11:59 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> They did once. Do they still when they have from a 360 architecture
> viewpoint vast quantities of silicon real estate to play with?

Absolutely.

If anything they do even more in microcode now than they used to.

The microcode has somewhat become an abstraction layer. The processor
underneath can do whatever it wants and rely on the microcode to be the
abstraction boundary.

There have been multiple episodes of the Terminal Talk podcast talk
about microcode, milicode, and other very low level codes that fall into
the more broad category of firmware.



--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work? [message #410862 is a reply to message #410849] Thu, 09 September 2021 14:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
scott is currently offline  scott
Messages: 3944
Registered: February 2012
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Senior Member
Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:
> John Goerzen <jgoerzen@complete.org> writes:
>
>> On 2021-09-08, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> You can still run programs compiled on a 360 on the latest “z” box.
>>
>> I gotta say - that's darn impressive. I'm not aware of anything else that
>> maintains compatibility that long; am I missing anything?
>
> Nope. S/360 in it's various flavors is the only survivor of that era.

Actually, that's not precisely true. The Burroughs B5500 still lives on
as the Unisys Clearpath systems, and still supports object files from
the 1960s.
Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work? [message #410863 is a reply to message #410862] Thu, 09 September 2021 15:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
Messages: 7970
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:
>> John Goerzen <jgoerzen@complete.org> writes:
>>
>>> On 2021-09-08, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> You can still run programs compiled on a 360 on the latest “z” box.
>>>
>>> I gotta say - that's darn impressive. I'm not aware of anything else that
>>> maintains compatibility that long; am I missing anything?
>>
>> Nope. S/360 in it's various flavors is the only survivor of that era.
>
> Actually, that's not precisely true. The Burroughs B5500 still lives on
> as the Unisys Clearpath systems, and still supports object files from
> the 1960s.
>

? I thought that the 5500’s successor systems weren’t object-compatible
with it. I don’t know about the degree of compatibility between the 6000s,
7000s, and 8000s. Id be happy to be corrected.

--
Pete
Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work? [message #410864 is a reply to message #410862] Thu, 09 September 2021 15:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dan Espen is currently offline  Dan Espen
Messages: 3749
Registered: January 2012
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Senior Member
scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:

> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:
>> John Goerzen <jgoerzen@complete.org> writes:
>>
>>> On 2021-09-08, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> You can still run programs compiled on a 360 on the latest z box.
>>>
>>> I gotta say - that's darn impressive. I'm not aware of anything else that
>>> maintains compatibility that long; am I missing anything?
>>
>> Nope. S/360 in it's various flavors is the only survivor of that era.
>
> Actually, that's not precisely true. The Burroughs B5500 still lives on
> as the Unisys Clearpath systems, and still supports object files from
> the 1960s.

hmm, I actually have been in contact with some of those systems but had
no idea they went back as far as 64.

--
Dan Espen
Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work? [message #410865 is a reply to message #410863] Thu, 09 September 2021 17:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
scott is currently offline  scott
Messages: 3944
Registered: February 2012
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Senior Member
Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
> Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:
>>> John Goerzen <jgoerzen@complete.org> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 2021-09-08, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> > You can still run programs compiled on a 360 on the latest “z” box.
>>>>
>>>> I gotta say - that's darn impressive. I'm not aware of anything else that
>>>> maintains compatibility that long; am I missing anything?
>>>
>>> Nope. S/360 in it's various flavors is the only survivor of that era.
>>
>> Actually, that's not precisely true. The Burroughs B5500 still lives on
>> as the Unisys Clearpath systems, and still supports object files from
>> the 1960s.
>>
>
> ? I thought that the 5500’s successor systems weren’t object-compatible
> with it. I don’t know about the degree of compatibility between the 6000s,
> 7000s, and 8000s. Id be happy to be corrected.

There was a step change between the B5500 and the B6500; after than they
were binary compatible (e-mode in the early 1980s added support for larger
memory, but still ran old codefiles).
Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work? [message #410866 is a reply to message #410864] Thu, 09 September 2021 17:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
scott is currently offline  scott
Messages: 3944
Registered: February 2012
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Senior Member
Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:
> scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:
>
>> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:
>>> John Goerzen <jgoerzen@complete.org> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 2021-09-08, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> > You can still run programs compiled on a 360 on the latest z box.
>>>>
>>>> I gotta say - that's darn impressive. I'm not aware of anything else that
>>>> maintains compatibility that long; am I missing anything?
>>>
>>> Nope. S/360 in it's various flavors is the only survivor of that era.
>>
>> Actually, that's not precisely true. The Burroughs B5500 still lives on
>> as the Unisys Clearpath systems, and still supports object files from
>> the 1960s.
>
> hmm, I actually have been in contact with some of those systems but had
> no idea they went back as far as 64.

Here's a video from 1968 on the B6500. I worked at that plant in Pasadena
in the 1980s.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNBtjEBYFPk

The family really started with the B5000

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3q5n1mR9iM

which was quickly superceded by the B5500:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KswWJ6zvBUs
Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work? [message #410868 is a reply to message #410865] Thu, 09 September 2021 21:02 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Dan Espen is currently offline  Dan Espen
Messages: 3749
Registered: January 2012
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Senior Member
scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:

> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>> Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>>> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> John Goerzen <jgoerzen@complete.org> writes:
>>>>
>>>> > On 2021-09-08, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> >> You can still run programs compiled on a 360 on the latest “z†box.
>>>> >
>>>> > I gotta say - that's darn impressive. I'm not aware of anything else that
>>>> > maintains compatibility that long; am I missing anything?
>>>>
>>>> Nope. S/360 in it's various flavors is the only survivor of that era.
>>>
>>> Actually, that's not precisely true. The Burroughs B5500 still lives on
>>> as the Unisys Clearpath systems, and still supports object files from
>>> the 1960s.
>>>
>>
>> ? I thought that the 5500’s successor systems weren’t object-compatible
>> with it. I don’t know about the degree of compatibility between the 6000s,
>> 7000s, and 8000s. Id be happy to be corrected.
>
> There was a step change between the B5500 and the B6500; after than they
> were binary compatible (e-mode in the early 1980s added support for larger
> memory, but still ran old codefiles).

I see a date of 1969 for the B6500.
That gives the title back to S/360.

I had to support a project moving Unisys code to z-Arch.
We had persistent performance issues, the mainframe just couldn't deal
with loading lots of small programs while the app was running.
I see Unisys is naturally reentrant. That probably had a lot to do with
the problems we were having.

--
Dan Espen
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