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Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox [message #410742 is a reply to message #410728] Sun, 05 September 2021 20:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: SixOverFive

On 9/5/21 9:50 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Sun, 5 Sep 2021 09:38:56 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
> <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 05/09/2021 06:40, SixOverFive wrote:
>>> Often, laziness was the Mother
>>>   Of All Invention - "This SUCKS ... how can I make
>>>   it easier/better ?".
>>
>> Which was pretty much Linus' attitude, and the rest, is history.

I think Linus was also too broke to buy UNIX :-)

So, BUILD YOUR OWN.

>
> Works for me. The two that go with it are that "it is easier to gain
> forgiveness than permission" and "initiative is when you did something
> you weren't supposed to do and it turned out good".
>
> Much of my work is boring and annoying. When I get annoyed I automate
> whatever is annoying me.

The only way to stay sane. Often the automation work
is MUCH more interesting than whatever project you're
automating :-)
Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox [message #410748 is a reply to message #410735] Sun, 05 September 2021 21:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Robin Vowels is currently offline  Robin Vowels
Messages: 426
Registered: July 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 2:36:49 AM UTC+10, David W. Hodgins wrote:
> On Sun, 05 Sep 2021 04:47:51 -0400, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> COBOL was and is a damned good language for commercial programming: It
>> enforces a discipline on coding and can be used on machines with
>> extremely low RAM. It is extremely *efficient* in execution (though
>> massively wordy in source code) What it didn't have back them was a
>> database language to run under it. I particularly liked an idea which I
>> believe it originated - and that is a formal way of specifying the data
>> structures - tables and fields - in advance. When building SQL style
>> applications this is massively useful even in a small project coded by
>> a single person
>> Again, FORTRAN is a fully functional efficient compiled procedural
>> language. There is no need to 'improve' it.
> Then there was PL/1, which was basically a combination of Fortran and Cobol.
..
without the verbosity of COBOL and without the achronistic codes of FORTRAN.
..
PL/I also took some ideas from ALGOL -- block structure and free format source.
..
Real improvements came with generic functions and whole array operations.
Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox [message #410750 is a reply to message #410742] Sun, 05 September 2021 22:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Sun, 5 Sep 2021 20:18:08 -0400, SixOverFive <hae274c.net> wrote:

> On 9/5/21 9:50 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Sun, 5 Sep 2021 09:38:56 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
>> <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On 05/09/2021 06:40, SixOverFive wrote:
>>>> Often, laziness was the Mother
>>>>   Of All Invention - "This SUCKS ... how can I make
>>>>   it easier/better ?".
>>>
>>> Which was pretty much Linus' attitude, and the rest, is history.
>
> I think Linus was also too broke to buy UNIX :-)
>
> So, BUILD YOUR OWN.

I understand it started out making some improvements on Minix, and he
improved right into a full blown Unix workalike.

>> Works for me. The two that go with it are that "it is easier to gain
>> forgiveness than permission" and "initiative is when you did something
>> you weren't supposed to do and it turned out good".
>>
>> Much of my work is boring and annoying. When I get annoyed I automate
>> whatever is annoying me.
>
> The only way to stay sane. Often the automation work
> is MUCH more interesting than whatever project you're
> automating :-)
Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox [message #410752 is a reply to message #410735] Sun, 05 September 2021 23:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: SixOverFive

On 9/5/21 12:05 PM, David W. Hodgins wrote:
> On Sun, 05 Sep 2021 04:47:51 -0400, The Natural Philosopher
> <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> COBOL was and is a damned good language for commercial programming: It
>> enforces a discipline on coding and can be used on machines with
>> extremely low RAM. It is extremely *efficient* in execution (though
>> massively wordy in source code) What it didn't have back them was  a
>> database language to run under it. I particularly liked an idea which I
>> believe it originated - and that is a formal way of specifying the data
>> structures - tables and fields - in advance. When building SQL style
>> applications this is massively useful even in a small project coded  by
>> a single person
>
>> Again, FORTRAN is a fully functional efficient compiled procedural
>> language. There is no need to 'improve' it.
>
> Then there was PL/1, which was basically a combination of Fortran and
> Cobol.
>
> Regards, Dave Hodgins
>


Found an DR-PL/I compiler image that'll run in
a DosBox or VirtualBox DOS environment. No MANUAL
though. There was no such thing as a "standard
implementation" back then (and hardly NOW) so
you need an DR-PL/I manual to effectively use
DR-PL/I.

PL/I always seemed to be a bit of a "kitchen sink"
language - you could spot bits of several, even BASIC,
in there. There were several viable approaches to
every task ... which ain't terrible.

Anyway, except for the wordiness and a few annoying quirks,
COBOL really is a perfectly viable language for commercial
programming. It does what you need to be done. Certainly
not "visual" though, however I really don't like Object
Oriented (still always write basically K&R 'C') so I don't
miss THAT in COBOL.

FORTRAN likewise is a perfectly good "sci/math oriented"
language. STILL widely used, often because SO many great
and powerful code snippets were writ back in the 60s and
nobody wants to take the time to RE-write them in anything
else.
Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox [message #410753 is a reply to message #410732] Sun, 05 September 2021 23:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: SixOverFive

On 9/5/21 12:22 PM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
> On Sun, 5 Sep 2021 01:40:06 -0400, SixOverFive <hae274c.net> wrote:
>>
>> On 9/3/21 2:11 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>
>>> Some professors are like that. I remember helping an undergrad find
>>> the keypunch (I was a computer science grad student and I didn't even
>>> know the school _had_ a keypunch or card reader until that came up).
>>> Seems he was taking a programming course from somebody in the
>>> chemistry department and that idiot insisted that his students use
>>> cards because that's what they'd be working with in the real world. I
>>> ended up having to go dig up an operator.
>>
>>
>> PART of the problem is that the computer world was
>> evolving SO fast back then. What was State Of The
>> Art one year was Obsolete Crap the next.
>
> I think that is only true until the mid 80s. From 1971 to around 1984 the
> address/data bus size of a (microprocessor based) CPU doubled several
> times to 32-Bit. Since around 2000 mainstream hardware is stuck at
> 64-bit.
>
> Today it's more RAM, faster CPU, more RAM, faster CPU... - how
> boring. That should only change once Quantum-Computing becomes
> mainstream.


IF ... lots of promises but Real World units are few,
weak and VERY quirky. PRICE is gawdawful too. QM
may wind up being a flash in the pan due to all the
little issues. The Spooks will probably keep a few
units for codebreaking, but that'll be about it.

Anyway, depending on the era, I'll absolve the Prof.
It was literally punch-cards/tape one month in the
high holy Computer Room and a bunch of serial terminals
in the library building the next. Minor issue - NOBODY
knew how to USE them. No instructions, no manuals. We
kinda hacked around and got some BASIC programs going,
but that was about it. This was, I think, 1979.
Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox [message #410754 is a reply to message #410753] Mon, 06 September 2021 00:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Sun, 5 Sep 2021 23:14:32 -0400, SixOverFive <hae274c.net> wrote:

> On 9/5/21 12:22 PM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>> On Sun, 5 Sep 2021 01:40:06 -0400, SixOverFive <hae274c.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 9/3/21 2:11 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>
>>>> Some professors are like that. I remember helping an undergrad find
>>>> the keypunch (I was a computer science grad student and I didn't even
>>>> know the school _had_ a keypunch or card reader until that came up).
>>>> Seems he was taking a programming course from somebody in the
>>>> chemistry department and that idiot insisted that his students use
>>>> cards because that's what they'd be working with in the real world. I
>>>> ended up having to go dig up an operator.
>>>
>>>
>>> PART of the problem is that the computer world was
>>> evolving SO fast back then. What was State Of The
>>> Art one year was Obsolete Crap the next.
>>
>> I think that is only true until the mid 80s. From 1971 to around 1984 the
>> address/data bus size of a (microprocessor based) CPU doubled several
>> times to 32-Bit. Since around 2000 mainstream hardware is stuck at
>> 64-bit.
>>
>> Today it's more RAM, faster CPU, more RAM, faster CPU... - how
>> boring. That should only change once Quantum-Computing becomes
>> mainstream.
>
>
> IF ... lots of promises but Real World units are few,
> weak and VERY quirky. PRICE is gawdawful too. QM
> may wind up being a flash in the pan due to all the
> little issues. The Spooks will probably keep a few
> units for codebreaking, but that'll be about it.
>
> Anyway, depending on the era, I'll absolve the Prof.
> It was literally punch-cards/tape one month in the
> high holy Computer Room and a bunch of serial terminals
> in the library building the next. Minor issue - NOBODY
> knew how to USE them. No instructions, no manuals. We
> kinda hacked around and got some BASIC programs going,
> but that was about it. This was, I think, 1979.

The school had had 3270s as long as any current students could
remember. And the VAX had had CRTs long enough for there to be asong
about them on campus sufficiently well known that a sophomore
journalism major knew it.
>
>
Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox [message #410758 is a reply to message #410735] Mon, 06 September 2021 03:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
The Natural Philosoph is currently offline  The Natural Philosoph
Messages: 238
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 05/09/2021 17:05, David W. Hodgins wrote:
> On Sun, 05 Sep 2021 04:47:51 -0400, The Natural Philosopher
> <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> COBOL was and is a damned good language for commercial programming: It
>> enforces a discipline on coding and can be used on machines with
>> extremely low RAM. It is extremely *efficient* in execution (though
>> massively wordy in source code) What it didn't have back them was  a
>> database language to run under it. I particularly liked an idea which I
>> believe it originated - and that is a formal way of specifying the data
>> structures - tables and fields - in advance. When building SQL style
>> applications this is massively useful even in a small project coded  by
>> a single person
>
>> Again, FORTRAN is a fully functional efficient compiled procedural
>> language. There is no need to 'improve' it.
>
> Then there was PL/1, which was basically a combination of Fortran and
> Cobol.
>
which turned out to be less handy.

ALGOL was also there, and IIRC that morphed into B, BCPL and then C..

> Regards, Dave Hodgins
>


--
I would rather have questions that cannot be answered...
....than to have answers that cannot be questioned

Richard Feynman
Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox [message #410759 is a reply to message #410750] Mon, 06 September 2021 03:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Sun, 05 Sep 2021 22:38:57 -0400
J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 5 Sep 2021 20:18:08 -0400, SixOverFive <hae274c.net> wrote:
>
>> On 9/5/21 9:50 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> On Sun, 5 Sep 2021 09:38:56 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
>>> <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 05/09/2021 06:40, SixOverFive wrote:
>>>> > Often, laziness was the Mother
>>>> >   Of All Invention - "This SUCKS ... how can I make
>>>> >   it easier/better ?".
>>>>
>>>> Which was pretty much Linus' attitude, and the rest, is history.
>>
>> I think Linus was also too broke to buy UNIX :-)
>>
>> So, BUILD YOUR OWN.
>
> I understand it started out making some improvements on Minix, and he
> improved right into a full blown Unix workalike.

The earliest story of the origin I read (sometime before 1.0) was
that he started with a clever idea for a more efficient context switch,
developed it under Minix and built out from there picking up fellow
travellers along the way to help round it out into enough of a unix kernel
clone to run GNU tools. The first working code was said to be two
processes one printing As the other Bs.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox [message #410760 is a reply to message #410737] Mon, 06 September 2021 04:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
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Senior Member
On Sun, 05 Sep 2021 17:29:32 -0400
J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:

> And the end result is that for single-threaded code, a ten year old
> machine is pretty much as good as a new one. Sad part is that the "IT
> Professionals" don't know that and think that replacing a 3 year old
> machine with a new one is still going to bring about a big performance
> improvement.

Works fine when the application is a kubernetes administered
swarm of docker images running on virtual machines connected by virtual
networks and using data on big SANs running NVMe over fabric with only
hypervisors running directly on the hardware.

That kind of architecture just loves running on lots and lots and
lots of cores that don't need to be too fruity as long as the concurrency is
good.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox [message #410766 is a reply to message #410758] Mon, 06 September 2021 11:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: David W. Hodgins

On Mon, 06 Sep 2021 03:50:59 -0400, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 05/09/2021 17:05, David W. Hodgins wrote:
>> On Sun, 05 Sep 2021 04:47:51 -0400, The Natural Philosopher
>> <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> COBOL was and is a damned good language for commercial programming: It
>>> enforces a discipline on coding and can be used on machines with
>>> extremely low RAM. It is extremely *efficient* in execution (though
>>> massively wordy in source code) What it didn't have back them was a
>>> database language to run under it. I particularly liked an idea which I
>>> believe it originated - and that is a formal way of specifying the data
>>> structures - tables and fields - in advance. When building SQL style
>>> applications this is massively useful even in a small project coded by
>>> a single person
>>
>>> Again, FORTRAN is a fully functional efficient compiled procedural
>>> language. There is no need to 'improve' it.
>>
>> Then there was PL/1, which was basically a combination of Fortran and
>> Cobol.
>>
> which turned out to be less handy.

Depends on the task. PL/1 supported 15 dimensional arrays. I don't remember if
Fortran did, but even if it did, PL/1 allowing better variable names to be
used allowing it to still be understandable. If a variable name exceeded 30
characters it took the first and last 15 characters. As long as that was unique,
it worked. COBOL was a max of 3 dimensions and a max of 30 character variable
names.

> ALGOL was also there, and IIRC that morphed into B, BCPL and then C..

I never used ALGOL, B, or BCPL, and only did a tiny bit of work in C.

Regards, Dave Hodgins


--
Change dwhodgins@nomail.afraid.org to davidwhodgins@teksavvy.com for
email replies.
Re: OT : Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox [message #410769 is a reply to message #410724] Mon, 06 September 2021 13:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: maus

On 2021-09-05, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 05/09/2021 11:38, gareth evans wrote:
>> On 05/09/2021 11:31, gareth evans wrote:
>>>
>>> AIUI, you failed your Computer Science PhD assessment if you used,
>>> "very" instead of, "highly".
>>
>> Sorry, an afterthought ... I thought that to get a PhD you had to
>> either invent something or else discover something previously
>> unfathomable but the plague of PhDs awarded these days do not
>> seem to be accompanied by widespread increases of knowledge
>> or developments in technology.
>>
>>
> No, you just have to write some impenetrable gobbledygook and get a chum
> to peer review it.
>
>
> "The influence of Patriarchal Modality on the development of unconscious
> homophobia in the Victorian institution' etc etc
>
>
> Clever people strive to make difficult stuff easy to understand.
> Not so clever people strive to make simple stuff more complicated so
> only they can understand it, and thus preserve their status and their
> careers
>
> As a wonderful example of prime communist blatherskite Eric Hobsbawn is
> the go-to idiot
>
As one who left school early, I sorta educated my self via Hogsbawm

>
> “The test of a progressive policy is not private but public, not just
> rising income and consumption for individuals, but widening the
> opportunities and what Amartya Sen calls the 'capabilities' of all
> through collective action. But that means, it must mean, public
> non-profit initiative, even if only in redistributing private
> accumulation. Public decisions aimed at collective social improvement
> from which all human lives should gain. That is the basis of progressive
> policy—not maximising economic growth and personal incomes. Nowhere will
> this be more important than in tackling the greatest problem facing us
> this century, the environmental crisis. Whatever ideological logo we
> choose for it, it will mean a major shift away from the free market and
> towards public action, a bigger shift than the British government has
> yet envisaged. And, given the acuteness of the economic crisis, probably
> a fairly rapid shift. Time is not on our side.”
>
>
> ― Eric Hobsbawm
>
> Contrast Scruton
>
>
> “When, in the works of Lacan, Deleuze and Althusser, the nonsense
> machine began to crank out its impenetrable sentences, of which nothing
> could be understood except that they all had “capitalism” as their
> target, it looked as though Nothing had at last found its voice.”
> ― Roger Scruton, Thinkers Of The New Left
>
> “The greatest task on the right, therefore, is to rescue the language of
> politics: to put within our grasp what has been forcibly removed from it
> by jargon.”
> ― Roger Scruton, Fools, Frauds and Firebrands: Thinkers of the New Left
> :
>
Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox [message #410780 is a reply to message #410758] Mon, 06 September 2021 15:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Rich Alderson is currently offline  Rich Alderson
Messages: 489
Registered: August 2012
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Senior Member
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:

> ALGOL was also there, and IIRC that morphed into B, BCPL and then C..

Order of invention was CPL, BCPL, B, and C.

There were jokes in the 1980s nad 1990s about the proper name for the next
language in the sequence: D, or P?

(Note that at least one object-oriented C successor named D was created.)

--
Rich Alderson news@alderson.users.panix.com
Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
--Galen
Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox [message #410784 is a reply to message #410753] Mon, 06 September 2021 16:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andreas Kohlbach is currently offline  Andreas Kohlbach
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Senior Member
On Sun, 5 Sep 2021 23:14:32 -0400, SixOverFive <hae274c.net> wrote:
>
>> Today it's more RAM, faster CPU, more RAM, faster CPU... - how
>> boring. That should only change once Quantum-Computing becomes
>> mainstream.
>
>
> IF ... lots of promises but Real World units are few,
> weak and VERY quirky. PRICE is gawdawful too. QM
> may wind up being a flash in the pan due to all the
> little issues. The Spooks will probably keep a few
> units for codebreaking, but that'll be about it.

Is you real name Thomas J. Watson by chance? ;-)

He worked as CEO at IBM and said 1943 "I think there is a world market
for maybe five computers". ;-)

Today some tech companies have them to let customers using them in the
cloud. Again back to the late 70s and before, when people used cloud
computing *ahem* time sharing, because no ordinary user was able to
purchase a mainframe. In a decade or two the phone in your pocket (or may be
transplanted in brains by then) runs on a Quantum-Computer.
--
Andreas
Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox [message #410786 is a reply to message #410784] Mon, 06 September 2021 17:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: maus

On 2021-09-06, Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 5 Sep 2021 23:14:32 -0400, SixOverFive <hae274c.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Today it's more RAM, faster CPU, more RAM, faster CPU... - how
>>> boring. That should only change once Quantum-Computing becomes
>>> mainstream.
>>
>>
>> IF ... lots of promises but Real World units are few,
>> weak and VERY quirky. PRICE is gawdawful too. QM
>> may wind up being a flash in the pan due to all the
>> little issues. The Spooks will probably keep a few
>> units for codebreaking, but that'll be about it.
>
> Is you real name Thomas J. Watson by chance? ;-)
>
> He worked as CEO at IBM and said 1943 "I think there is a world market
> for maybe five computers". ;-)
>
> Today some tech companies have them to let customers using them in the
> cloud. Again back to the late 70s and before, when people used cloud
> computing *ahem* time sharing, because no ordinary user was able to
> purchase a mainframe. In a decade or two the phone in your pocket (or may be
> transplanted in brains by then) runs on a Quantum-Computer.
>
I believe the head of the bank of england oce remarked, `Why Phones?..
We have lots of messangers'.
Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox [message #410814 is a reply to message #410703] Tue, 07 September 2021 16:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
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Senior Member
On 2021-09-03, Kurt Weiske <kurt.weiske@realitycheckbbs.org.remove-x4i-this>
wrote:

> I had a high school teacher insist we spend a day writing punch card decks
> on an old system he'd brought in. He said "trust me, one day this will make
> sense..."
>
> So, I get to say I started out on punch cards. :)

My first job in the Real World was in a shop that had a machine
with 16K of RAM and no disks or tapes - only cards. At least
we had three card readers so we didn't need a collator to merge
input decks - or a sorter to separate them again afterwards.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | They don't understand Microsoft
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | has stolen their car and parked
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | a taxi in their driveway.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Mayayana
Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox [message #410816 is a reply to message #410716] Tue, 07 September 2021 16:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
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On 2021-09-05, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

> On Sun, 5 Sep 2021 09:38:56 +0100
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 05/09/2021 06:40, SixOverFive wrote:
>>
>>> Often, laziness was the Mother
>>>   Of All Invention - "This SUCKS ... how can I make
>>>   it easier/better ?".
>>
>> Which was pretty much Linus' attitude, and the rest, is history
>
> More like Stallman's and before that a certain group at Berkeley
> and before that a handful of people at Bell and before that ...
>
> It's giant's shoulders all the way down, all stacked up like a
> circus pyramid.

With Bill Gates hacking away at the bottom...

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | They don't understand Microsoft
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | has stolen their car and parked
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | a taxi in their driveway.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Mayayana
Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox [message #410817 is a reply to message #410737] Tue, 07 September 2021 16:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
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On 2021-09-05, J Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:

> And the end result is that for single-threaded code, a ten year old
> machine is pretty much as good as a new one. Sad part is that the "IT
> Professionals" don't know that and think that replacing a 3 year old
> machine with a new one is still going to bring about a big performance
> improvement.

These are the people who partition that huge new hard drive into tiny
chunks and wonder why the system falls over when they generate big files.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | They don't understand Microsoft
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | has stolen their car and parked
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | a taxi in their driveway.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Mayayana
Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox [message #410819 is a reply to message #410752] Tue, 07 September 2021 16:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
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On 2021-09-06, SixOverFive <hae274c.net> wrote:

> FORTRAN likewise is a perfectly good "sci/math oriented"
> language. STILL widely used, often because SO many great
> and powerful code snippets were writ back in the 60s and
> nobody wants to take the time to RE-write them in anything
> else.

As Stan Kelly-Bootle said in _The Devil's DP Dictionary_,

Yet FORTRAN gallops on, transportable as syphilis,
fired by a bottomless pit of working subprograms.

BTW has anyone else noticed that Newsguy has died?

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | They don't understand Microsoft
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | has stolen their car and parked
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | a taxi in their driveway.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Mayayana
Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox [message #410820 is a reply to message #410819] Tue, 07 September 2021 16:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dan Espen is currently offline  Dan Espen
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Registered: January 2012
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Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:

> On 2021-09-06, SixOverFive <hae274c.net> wrote:
>
>> FORTRAN likewise is a perfectly good "sci/math oriented"
>> language. STILL widely used, often because SO many great
>> and powerful code snippets were writ back in the 60s and
>> nobody wants to take the time to RE-write them in anything
>> else.
>
> As Stan Kelly-Bootle said in _The Devil's DP Dictionary_,
>
> Yet FORTRAN gallops on, transportable as syphilis,
> fired by a bottomless pit of working subprograms.
>
> BTW has anyone else noticed that Newsguy has died?

https://www.reddit.com/r/usenet/comments/ph9lde/newsguycom_w hats_happening/

Bankrupt.

--
Dan Espen
Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox [message #410823 is a reply to message #410816] Tue, 07 September 2021 17:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
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On Tue, 07 Sep 2021 20:12:50 GMT
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

> On 2021-09-05, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 5 Sep 2021 09:38:56 +0100
>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On 05/09/2021 06:40, SixOverFive wrote:
>>>
>>>> Often, laziness was the Mother
>>>>   Of All Invention - "This SUCKS ... how can I make
>>>>   it easier/better ?".
>>>
>>> Which was pretty much Linus' attitude, and the rest, is history
>>
>> More like Stallman's and before that a certain group at Berkeley
>> and before that a handful of people at Bell and before that ...
>>
>> It's giant's shoulders all the way down, all stacked up like a
>> circus pyramid.
>
> With Bill Gates hacking away at the bottom...

Somewhere in the middle with Ken Dodd's tickling stick I think.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox [message #410825 is a reply to message #410820] Tue, 07 September 2021 18:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Tue, 07 Sep 2021 16:27:36 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>
>> On 2021-09-06, SixOverFive <hae274c.net> wrote:
>>
>>> FORTRAN likewise is a perfectly good "sci/math oriented"
>>> language. STILL widely used, often because SO many great
>>> and powerful code snippets were writ back in the 60s and
>>> nobody wants to take the time to RE-write them in anything
>>> else.
>>
>> As Stan Kelly-Bootle said in _The Devil's DP Dictionary_,
>>
>> Yet FORTRAN gallops on, transportable as syphilis,
>> fired by a bottomless pit of working subprograms.
>>
>> BTW has anyone else noticed that Newsguy has died?
>
> https://www.reddit.com/r/usenet/comments/ph9lde/newsguycom_w hats_happening/
>
> Bankrupt.

Shame, but they brought it on themselves. Too many outages--I finally
changed over to Forteinc. One of the things that annoyed me about
Newsguy was the periodic shutdowns when the moved their servers to a
new location--remind me of the kids who move to a different apartment
every time the lease is up.
Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox [message #410830 is a reply to message #410825] Tue, 07 September 2021 20:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
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Senior Member
On 2021-09-07, J Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 07 Sep 2021 16:27:36 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>>
>>> BTW has anyone else noticed that Newsguy has died?
>>
>> https://www.reddit.com/r/usenet/comments/ph9lde/newsguycom_w hats_happening/
>>
>> Bankrupt.
>
> Shame, but they brought it on themselves. Too many outages--I finally
> changed over to Forteinc. One of the things that annoyed me about
> Newsguy was the periodic shutdowns when the moved their servers to a
> new location--remind me of the kids who move to a different apartment
> every time the lease is up.

Too bad. I've been with them a long time, and never noticed too many
outages. I dug through my stuff and in the configuration for Pan
(which I used to use to download from the binaries groups but haven't
used for several years) I found the login information for Astraweb.
Fortunately, that site and my account on it are still alive - so I'm back.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | They don't understand Microsoft
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | has stolen their car and parked
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | a taxi in their driveway.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Mayayana
Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox [message #410845 is a reply to message #410784] Wed, 08 September 2021 16:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Rich Alderson is currently offline  Rich Alderson
Messages: 489
Registered: August 2012
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Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> writes:

> Is you real name Thomas J. Watson by chance? ;-)

> He worked as CEO at IBM and said 1943 "I think there is a world market
> for maybe five computers". ;-)

No, $DEITY DAMN IT, he did NOT!

That entire meme is a misrepresentation of what he actually said in IBM's
annual report to stockholders in 1952. In his report, he stated that he
accompanied a presentation of the brand new IBM 701 computer to 20 scientific
laboratories; the expected sales from this dog-and-pony show was about 5
systems. He was happy to report that there were orders for *19* of them.

The report can be found on the Web. Look it up for yourself; I don't have the
time.

But please, PLEASE, PLLLEEEAASSSSSSE, stop spreading this stupid lie.

--
Rich Alderson news@alderson.users.panix.com
Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
--Galen
Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox [message #410851 is a reply to message #410714] Wed, 08 September 2021 22:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Jerry Peters

In comp.os.linux.misc The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 05/09/2021 07:14, SixOverFive wrote:
>> On 9/3/21 8:18 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> On Fri, 3 Sep 2021 13:59:26 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>>> > On Fri, 03 Sep 2021 14:11:42 -0400
>>>> > J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> and that idiot insisted that his students use
>>>> >> cards because that's what they'd be working with in the real world.
>>>> >
>>>> >     Reminds me of the A level computer science course I wished I hadn't
>>>> > taken - the year before it had been all about machine architecture,
>>>> > assembly language programming, data structures and algorithms, fun
>>>> > stuff.
>>>> > But I wasn't allowed to take it that year (because I was taking my O
>>>> > levels) I had to wait and take it the following year and so the
>>>> > course I
>>>> > got to take was COBOL, systems analysis and data validation and not
>>>> > what I
>>>> > had been looking forward to at all. But it was "what we'd be working
>>>> > with
>>>> > in the real world" or so I was told when I moaned about the change.
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> COBOL programmers are still in demand, apparently.
>>>
>>> They are.  Unfortunately these days to get a job you have to move to
>>> India and be willing to work for an Indian wage.  It's a _good_ Indian
>>> wage mind you, I understand you can live comfortably on it, but it's
>>> below US minimum.
>>
>>   Know a guy who got a job fairly recently at a govt
>>   op ... one requirement was that he learn COBOL because
>>   they'd heavily invested in *perfect* COBOL apps way
>>   back in the day and would not, could not afford to,
>>   have them re-written in anything else. Important
>>   customized stuff like payrolls, scheduling ...
>>
>>   COBOL was a wonder-language back in the day, perfect for
>>   all kinds of biz apps and (sort of) self-documenting
>>   because of the quasi-natural-language code. Its "PIC"
>>   statement was great, could do everything printf() can
>>   do, help you out with format conversions and forms.
>>   It was assumed you were using TTY terminals and serial
>>   ASCII printers. There ARE a couple of COBOL development
>>   tools for Linux ... one, I think, will even set up
>>   tinted columns for the older, more anal, COBOL versions
>>   where you had to put certain codes in EXACTLY the
>>   right columns. DID make the compilers simpler ...
>>
>
>
> COBOL was and is a damned good language for commercial programming: It
> enforces a discipline on coding and can be used on machines with
> extremely low RAM. It is extremely *efficient* in execution (though

ROTFL, certainly *not* the IBM compilers. I had a habit of looking at
the generated code -- it was *horrible*. It was so bad that a company
called Capex wrote an optimizer for it. It greatly improved the
efficiency of the programs.

Jerry
Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox [message #410980 is a reply to message #410760] Wed, 15 September 2021 13:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Harry Vaderchi is currently offline  Harry Vaderchi
Messages: 719
Registered: July 2012
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Senior Member
On Mon, 6 Sep 2021 09:04:26 +0100
Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

> On Sun, 05 Sep 2021 17:29:32 -0400
> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> And the end result is that for single-threaded code, a ten year old
>> machine is pretty much as good as a new one. Sad part is that the
>> "IT Professionals" don't know that and think that replacing a 3
>> year old machine with a new one is still going to bring about a big
>> performance improvement.
>
> Works fine when the application is a kubernetes administered
> swarm of docker images running on virtual machines connected by
> virtual networks and using data on big SANs running NVMe over fabric
> with only hypervisors running directly on the hardware.
>
> That kind of architecture just loves running on lots and lots
> and lots of cores that don't need to be too fruity as long as the
> concurrency is good.
>
I'm so out of it I only recognise 'SAN' and 'virtual machine'

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.
Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox [message #410987 is a reply to message #410714] Thu, 16 September 2021 08:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Quadibloc is currently offline  Quadibloc
Messages: 4399
Registered: June 2012
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On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 2:47:53 AM UTC-6, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> Hence 'object oriented' rubbish and 'operator overloading' - sheesh the
> worst idea EVER. Making a expresssion symbol dependent on the context in
> which its being used.

In FORTRAN, + - * and / work with INTEGER, REAL, DOUBLE PRECISION, and
COMPLEX variables equally well.

So operator overloading is not a bad idea - if it is used properly, instead of abused.

John Savard
Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox [message #410988 is a reply to message #410727] Thu, 16 September 2021 08:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Quadibloc is currently offline  Quadibloc
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Registered: June 2012
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Senior Member
On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 7:44:34 AM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:

> And the real problem is that the people in India are taking their good
> wage and buying stuff in India, not in the US, and they can't afford
> US made so they are buying local or Chinese.

> And management doesn't see what's wrong with this.

That's not a problem for management. If they choose to
purchase other than the least expensive labor as an input
into their products, they will be destroyed by the competition.

If you want to prevent the free-market system from working
as intended, you need to enlist the aid of the government
in interfering with it, through things like tariff legislation.

John Savard
Re: real programmers, was HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox [message #410989 is a reply to message #410739] Thu, 16 September 2021 08:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Quadibloc is currently offline  Quadibloc
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On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 4:16:55 PM UTC-6, John Levine wrote:
> According to Dennis Boone <d...@ihatespam.msu.edu>:

>> Hah. You can write bad code in any language, and CObOL gives you
>> plenty of rope. ALTER clause anyone?

> No worse than the Fortran assigned GOTO. Sensible programmers stopped using them
> as soon as there were other ways to write subroutines, like about 1962.

Actually, the ALTER mechanism in COBOL is much, much worse than the assigned
GOTO in FORTRAN, since there is no evidence in COBOL at the site of the GOTO
being altered that an alteration has taken place.

That is a language construct tailor-made for malfeasance.

John Savard
Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox [message #410990 is a reply to message #410766] Thu, 16 September 2021 08:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Quadibloc is currently offline  Quadibloc
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On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 9:17:09 AM UTC-6, David W. Hodgins wrote:

> Depends on the task. PL/1 supported 15 dimensional arrays. I don't remember if
> Fortran did,

Some dialects of FORTRAN IV only went up to seven-dimensional arrays. This
may have had something to do with the fact that the IBM 7094 had seven
index registers.

John Savard
Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox [message #411003 is a reply to message #410987] Thu, 16 September 2021 13:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Thu, 16 Sep 2021 05:37:55 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
<jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

> On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 2:47:53 AM UTC-6, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> Hence 'object oriented' rubbish and 'operator overloading' - sheesh the
>> worst idea EVER. Making a expresssion symbol dependent on the context in
>> which its being used.
>
> In FORTRAN, + - * and / work with INTEGER, REAL, DOUBLE PRECISION, and
> COMPLEX variables equally well.
>
> So operator overloading is not a bad idea - if it is used properly, instead of abused.

In APL they work if one argument is scalar and the other an array. In
Python they also work if the left argument is a string.
Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox [message #411004 is a reply to message #410988] Thu, 16 September 2021 13:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Thu, 16 Sep 2021 05:43:17 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
<jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

> On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 7:44:34 AM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> And the real problem is that the people in India are taking their good
>> wage and buying stuff in India, not in the US, and they can't afford
>> US made so they are buying local or Chinese.
>
>> And management doesn't see what's wrong with this.
>
> That's not a problem for management.

Well, yes, it is.

> If they choose to
> purchase other than the least expensive labor as an input
> into their products, they will be destroyed by the competition.

You mean like Henry Ford was?

> If you want to prevent the free-market system from working
> as intended, you need to enlist the aid of the government
> in interfering with it, through things like tariff legislation.

You mean like it helped Henry Ford?
Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox [message #411009 is a reply to message #411003] Thu, 16 September 2021 16:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Thomas Koenig

J Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> schrieb:
> On Thu, 16 Sep 2021 05:37:55 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
> <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>> On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 2:47:53 AM UTC-6, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>>> Hence 'object oriented' rubbish and 'operator overloading' - sheesh the
>>> worst idea EVER. Making a expresssion symbol dependent on the context in
>>> which its being used.
>>
>> In FORTRAN, + - * and / work with INTEGER, REAL, DOUBLE PRECISION, and
>> COMPLEX variables equally well.
>>
>> So operator overloading is not a bad idea - if it is used properly, instead of abused.
>
> In APL they work if one argument is scalar and the other an array.

Same in Fortran (but not in FORTRAN).
Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox [message #411011 is a reply to message #410987] Thu, 16 September 2021 17:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Robin Vowels is currently offline  Robin Vowels
Messages: 426
Registered: July 2012
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Senior Member
On Thursday, September 16, 2021 at 10:37:57 PM UTC+10, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 2:47:53 AM UTC-6, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> Hence 'object oriented' rubbish and 'operator overloading' - sheesh the
>> worst idea EVER. Making a expresssion symbol dependent on the context in
>> which its being used.
>
> In FORTRAN, + - * and / work with INTEGER, REAL, DOUBLE PRECISION, and
> COMPLEX variables equally well.

You mean equally badly.
Things overflow in integer arithmetic, without warning.
What about integer complex numbers?

> So operator overloading is not a bad idea - if it is used properly, instead of abused.

And anyway, that isn't operator overloading.
Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox [message #411012 is a reply to message #411003] Thu, 16 September 2021 17:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Robin Vowels is currently offline  Robin Vowels
Messages: 426
Registered: July 2012
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Senior Member
On Friday, September 17, 2021 at 3:50:42 AM UTC+10, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Sep 2021 05:37:55 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
> <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>> On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 2:47:53 AM UTC-6, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>>> Hence 'object oriented' rubbish and 'operator overloading' - sheesh the
>>> worst idea EVER. Making a expresssion symbol dependent on the context in
>>> which its being used.
>>
>> In FORTRAN, + - * and / work with INTEGER, REAL, DOUBLE PRECISION, and
>> COMPLEX variables equally well.
>>
>> So operator overloading is not a bad idea - if it is used properly, instead of abused.
..
> In APL they work if one argument is scalar and the other an array.
..
PL/I has been doing that since 1966.
Fortran has been doing that since 1991.
..
> In Python they also work if the left argument is a string.

It can be done in PL/I also.
Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox [message #411014 is a reply to message #411011] Thu, 16 September 2021 17:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
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On Thu, 16 Sep 2021 14:05:25 -0700 (PDT)
Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thursday, September 16, 2021 at 10:37:57 PM UTC+10, Quadibloc wrote:
>> On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 2:47:53 AM UTC-6, The Natural
>> Philosopher wrote:
>>
>>> Hence 'object oriented' rubbish and 'operator overloading' - sheesh
>>> the worst idea EVER. Making a expresssion symbol dependent on the
>>> context in which its being used.
>>
>> In FORTRAN, + - * and / work with INTEGER, REAL, DOUBLE PRECISION, and
>> COMPLEX variables equally well.
>> So operator overloading is not a bad idea - if it is used properly,
>> instead of abused.
>
> And anyway, that isn't operator overloading.

Yes it is, as soon as the code required for the operation depends
on the data types on either side of the operator it's overloaded. It's just
done at the compiler level and not made extensible by the programmer in
FORTRAN. Making it extensible by the programmer does of course open up all
sorts of possibilities for abuse - but it is nonetheless useful when used
appropriately to aid code clarity. For example if I happen to be writing
code that deals with vectors a lot it would be useful to be able to add
them and multiply them by scalars without wordy function calls obscuring
the logic.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox [message #411016 is a reply to message #411014] Thu, 16 September 2021 18:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Robin Vowels is currently offline  Robin Vowels
Messages: 426
Registered: July 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Friday, September 17, 2021 at 8:00:03 AM UTC+10, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Sep 2021 14:05:25 -0700 (PDT)
> Robin Vowels <robin....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thursday, September 16, 2021 at 10:37:57 PM UTC+10, Quadibloc wrote:
>>> On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 2:47:53 AM UTC-6, The Natural
>>> Philosopher wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hence 'object oriented' rubbish and 'operator overloading' - sheesh
>>>> the worst idea EVER. Making a expresssion symbol dependent on the
>>>> context in which its being used.
>>>
>>> In FORTRAN, + - * and / work with INTEGER, REAL, DOUBLE PRECISION, and
>>> COMPLEX variables equally well.
>>> So operator overloading is not a bad idea - if it is used properly,
>>> instead of abused.
>>
>> And anyway, that isn't operator overloading.
..
> Yes it is, as soon as the code required for the operation depends
> on the data types on either side of the operator it's overloaded.
..
I disagree.
..
> It's just
> done at the compiler level and not made extensible by the programmer in
> FORTRAN. Making it extensible by the programmer does of course open up all
> sorts of possibilities for abuse - but it is nonetheless useful when used
> appropriately to aid code clarity. For example if I happen to be writing
> code that deals with vectors a lot it would be useful to be able to add
> them and multiply them by scalars without wordy function calls obscuring
> the logic.
..
That's been done routinely in PL/I since 1966, and in Fortran since 1990.
Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox [message #411024 is a reply to message #411014] Thu, 16 September 2021 21:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
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Senior Member
Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Sep 2021 14:05:25 -0700 (PDT)
> Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thursday, September 16, 2021 at 10:37:57 PM UTC+10, Quadibloc wrote:
>>> On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 2:47:53 AM UTC-6, The Natural
>>> Philosopher wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hence 'object oriented' rubbish and 'operator overloading' - sheesh
>>>> the worst idea EVER. Making a expresssion symbol dependent on the
>>>> context in which its being used.
>>>
>>> In FORTRAN, + - * and / work with INTEGER, REAL, DOUBLE PRECISION, and
>>> COMPLEX variables equally well.
>>> So operator overloading is not a bad idea - if it is used properly,
>>> instead of abused.
>>
>> And anyway, that isn't operator overloading.
>
> Yes it is, as soon as the code required for the operation depends
> on the data types on either side of the operator it's overloaded. It's just
> done at the compiler level and not made extensible by the programmer in
> FORTRAN. Making it extensible by the programmer does of course open up all
> sorts of possibilities for abuse - but it is nonetheless useful when used
> appropriately to aid code clarity. For example if I happen to be writing
> code that deals with vectors a lot it would be useful to be able to add
> them and multiply them by scalars without wordy function calls obscuring
> the logic.
>

You could always use PL/I. (or APL, I suppose)

--
Pete
Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox [message #411025 is a reply to message #411024] Thu, 16 September 2021 22:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Thu, 16 Sep 2021 18:57:34 -0700, Peter Flass
<peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2021 14:05:25 -0700 (PDT)
>> Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thursday, September 16, 2021 at 10:37:57 PM UTC+10, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>> On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 2:47:53 AM UTC-6, The Natural
>>>> Philosopher wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > Hence 'object oriented' rubbish and 'operator overloading' - sheesh
>>>> > the worst idea EVER. Making a expresssion symbol dependent on the
>>>> > context in which its being used.
>>>>
>>>> In FORTRAN, + - * and / work with INTEGER, REAL, DOUBLE PRECISION, and
>>>> COMPLEX variables equally well.
>>>> So operator overloading is not a bad idea - if it is used properly,
>>>> instead of abused.
>>>
>>> And anyway, that isn't operator overloading.
>>
>> Yes it is, as soon as the code required for the operation depends
>> on the data types on either side of the operator it's overloaded. It's just
>> done at the compiler level and not made extensible by the programmer in
>> FORTRAN. Making it extensible by the programmer does of course open up all
>> sorts of possibilities for abuse - but it is nonetheless useful when used
>> appropriately to aid code clarity. For example if I happen to be writing
>> code that deals with vectors a lot it would be useful to be able to add
>> them and multiply them by scalars without wordy function calls obscuring
>> the logic.
>>
>
> You could always use PL/I. (or APL, I suppose)

Numpy, which overloads the standard Python operators to give
functionality close to that of APL.
Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox [message #411028 is a reply to message #411024] Fri, 17 September 2021 02:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
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Senior Member
On Thu, 16 Sep 2021 18:57:34 -0700
Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>> On Thu, 16 Sep 2021 14:05:25 -0700 (PDT)
>> Yes it is, as soon as the code required for the operation
>> depends on the data types on either side of the operator it's
>> overloaded. It's just done at the compiler level and not made
>> extensible by the programmer in FORTRAN. Making it extensible by the
>> programmer does of course open up all sorts of possibilities for abuse
>> - but it is nonetheless useful when used appropriately to aid code
>> clarity. For example if I happen to be writing code that deals with
>> vectors a lot it would be useful to be able to add them and multiply
>> them by scalars without wordy function calls obscuring the logic.
>>
>
> You could always use PL/I. (or APL, I suppose)

I could, perhaps depending on policies, but vectors were
just an example of something not supported by the language where using
operators makes sense, there are many others and no language supports them
all unless it allows programmer defined operator overloading.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: real programmers, was HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox [message #411069 is a reply to message #410989] Sat, 18 September 2021 05:19 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Thomas Koenig

Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> schrieb:
> On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 4:16:55 PM UTC-6, John Levine wrote:
>> According to Dennis Boone <d...@ihatespam.msu.edu>:
>
>>> Hah. You can write bad code in any language, and CObOL gives you
>>> plenty of rope. ALTER clause anyone?
>
>> No worse than the Fortran assigned GOTO. Sensible programmers stopped using them
>> as soon as there were other ways to write subroutines, like about 1962.
>
> Actually, the ALTER mechanism in COBOL is much, much worse than the assigned
> GOTO in FORTRAN, since there is no evidence in COBOL at the site of the GOTO
> being altered that an alteration has taken place.

AT (used for debugging purposes in early FORTRAN) actually implemented
come-from.
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