| Learning European languages [message #404726] |
Mon, 25 January 2021 23:15  |
Niklas Karlsson
Messages: 265
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2021-01-26, Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>
>> I would think English is a much harder language than German because of
>> its quixotic spelling and pronunciation.
>
> I guess you're wrong here.
>
> Anyone here not a native English speaker, who learned English and German,
> can tell what was harder to learn?
I've definitely managed to learn English much more thoroughly than
German, but I don't think it's a fair comparison. English is ubiquitous,
as Peter touched upon.
I started using computers at an early age, and while translated software
existed even back then, you couldn't really rely on it existing, so
English was a vital skill. Later I started reading books in English as
well, and of course, Sweden doesn't dub anything intended for an
audience old enough to read.
Basically I got about the maximum amount of immersion possible without
living in an English-speaking country.
I could of course have immersed myself in German literature and whatnot
as well, but could never quite work up the motivation. What was
available in English generally interested me more, and I was already up
to speed on that language.
>> I (sort of) learned German for a number of reasons. One of them is that
>> it’s the most widely-spoken language. I’d love to learn Gaelic, among
>> others, but I think 1-1/2 languages are about my limit.
>
> German most widely spoken? I assume that is either Chinese (well they
> have different flavors), Hindu (they also have) or Spanish. Almost all
> countries of South America (Brazil might be one of the few exceptions)
> have Spanish as official language.
I took it to mean most widely spoken in Europe.
Niklas
--
Hungarian Notation is the tactical nuclear weapon of source code obfuscation
techniques.
-- Roedy Green
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| Re: Learning European languages [message #404727 is a reply to message #404726] |
Mon, 25 January 2021 23:32  |
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Originally posted by: J. Clarke
On 26 Jan 2021 04:15:57 GMT, Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> wrote:
> On 2021-01-26, Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>>
>>> I would think English is a much harder language than German because of
>>> its quixotic spelling and pronunciation.
>>
>> I guess you're wrong here.
>>
>> Anyone here not a native English speaker, who learned English and German,
>> can tell what was harder to learn?
>
> I've definitely managed to learn English much more thoroughly than
> German, but I don't think it's a fair comparison. English is ubiquitous,
> as Peter touched upon.
>
> I started using computers at an early age, and while translated software
> existed even back then, you couldn't really rely on it existing, so
> English was a vital skill. Later I started reading books in English as
> well, and of course, Sweden doesn't dub anything intended for an
> audience old enough to read.
>
> Basically I got about the maximum amount of immersion possible without
> living in an English-speaking country.
>
> I could of course have immersed myself in German literature and whatnot
> as well, but could never quite work up the motivation. What was
> available in English generally interested me more, and I was already up
> to speed on that language.
>
>>> I (sort of) learned German for a number of reasons. One of them is that
>>> it’s the most widely-spoken language. I’d love to learn Gaelic, among
>>> others, but I think 1-1/2 languages are about my limit.
>>
>> German most widely spoken? I assume that is either Chinese (well they
>> have different flavors), Hindu (they also have) or Spanish. Almost all
>> countries of South America (Brazil might be one of the few exceptions)
>> have Spanish as official language.
>
> I took it to mean most widely spoken in Europe.
I'm told that India has many languages--only about 40% of the
population are native speakers of Hindi. The most spoken language in
the world is English, narrowly edging out Mandarin, with Hindi third
and Spanish fourth. OTOH, Mandarin has the largest number of native
speakers, followed by Spanish, English, and Hindi in that order.
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| Re: Learning European languages [message #404738 is a reply to message #404726] |
Tue, 26 January 2021 05:59 |
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Originally posted by: Stefan Möding
Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> writes:
> When I got my Amiga 500 in 1989 it had a German manual, but the
> translation for "bit planes" (if it even was translated; can't remember)
> was still confusing.
At university one of the operating system lecture books was a German
translation; I think it might have been "Operating System Principles" by Per
Brinch Hansen.
It used a translation for every technical term: "What's a 'Keller'? Ah, he's
talking about a stack...". Very difficult to understand if you're used to the
English terms.
Also the German localized error messages in early AIX were not helpful...
--
Stefan
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| Re: Learning European languages [message #404741 is a reply to message #404727] |
Tue, 26 January 2021 07:58 |
Gerard Schildberger
Messages: 163
Registered: September 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Monday, January 25, 2021 at 10:32:24 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:
> On 26 Jan 2021 04:15:57 GMT, Niklas Karlsson wrote:
>
>> On 2021-01-26, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>>>
>>>> I would think English is a much harder language than German because of
>>>> its quixotic spelling and pronunciation.
>>>
>>> I guess you're wrong here.
>>>
>>> Anyone here not a native English speaker, who learned English and German,
>>> can tell what was harder to learn?
>>
>> I've definitely managed to learn English much more thoroughly than
>> German, but I don't think it's a fair comparison. English is ubiquitous,
>> as Peter touched upon.
>>
>> I started using computers at an early age, and while translated software
>> existed even back then, you couldn't really rely on it existing, so
>> English was a vital skill. Later I started reading books in English as
>> well, and of course, Sweden doesn't dub anything intended for an
>> audience old enough to read.
>>
>> Basically I got about the maximum amount of immersion possible without
>> living in an English-speaking country.
>>
>> I could of course have immersed myself in German literature and whatnot
>> as well, but could never quite work up the motivation. What was
>> available in English generally interested me more, and I was already up
>> to speed on that language.
>>
>>>> I (sort of) learned German for a number of reasons. One of them is that
>>>> it’s the most widely-spoken language. I’d love to learn Gaelic, among
>>>> others, but I think 1-1/2 languages are about my limit.
>>>
>>> German most widely spoken? I assume that is either Chinese (well they
>>> have different flavors), Hindu (they also have) or Spanish. Almost all
>>> countries of South America (Brazil might be one of the few exceptions)
>>> have Spanish as official language.
>>
>> I took it to mean most widely spoken in Europe.
> I'm told that India has many languages--only about 40% of the
> population are native speakers of Hindi. The most spoken language in
> the world is English, narrowly edging out Mandarin, with Hindi third
> and Spanish fourth. OTOH, Mandarin has the largest number of native
> speakers, followed by Spanish, English, and Hindi in that order.
I bought a book back around 1988 or so, it dealt with (among other things)
the spread of languages and dialects. At that time, there were more
people in China learning English than there were English speakers in
all other countries. _________________________________ Gerard Schildberger
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| Re: Learning European languages [message #404744 is a reply to message #404741] |
Tue, 26 January 2021 08:18 |
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Tue, 26 Jan 2021 04:58:21 -0800 (PST)
Gerard Schildberger <gerard46@rrt.net> wrote:
> I bought a book back around 1988 or so, it dealt with (among other things)
> the spread of languages and dialects. At that time, there were more
> people in China learning English than there were English speakers
> in all other countries.
I saw that fact mentioned on an advert (for HSBC IIRC) in theifrow
a few years back.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
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| Re: Learning European languages [message #404745 is a reply to message #404726] |
Tue, 26 January 2021 08:56 |
Niklas Karlsson
Messages: 265
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2021-01-26, Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>
> I also learned French at school. But after 1988 never practiced so I'm
> not really able to communicate in French.
That's pretty much the case with me and German. I took it for six years
at school but otherwise barely used it. I can sort of follow the gist of
some German texts, but that's about it.
Niklas
--
For a time, I wrote data analysis code in C on VMS. I drank a lot of
tequila during that time.
-- Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes in asr
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| Re: Learning European languages [message #404746 is a reply to message #404738] |
Tue, 26 January 2021 08:58 |
Niklas Karlsson
Messages: 265
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2021-01-26, Stefan Möding <Jan2021.5.kill-9@spamgourmet.com> wrote:
>
> At university one of the operating system lecture books was a German
> translation; I think it might have been "Operating System Principles" by Per
> Brinch Hansen.
>
> It used a translation for every technical term: "What's a 'Keller'? Ah, he's
> talking about a stack...". Very difficult to understand if you're used to the
> English terms.
>
> Also the German localized error messages in early AIX were not helpful...
Certainly my experience is that IT people loathe translated software
(assuming the original was English, that is), and translated
documentation even moreso. It wouldn't surprise me if this is the case
everywhere on the planet.
Niklas
--
"Some people think that noise abatement should be a higher priority for ATC. I
say safety is noise abatement. You have no idea how much noise it makes to have
a 737 fall out of the sky after an accident." -- anon. air traffic controller
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| Re: Learning European languages [message #404747 is a reply to message #404746] |
Tue, 26 January 2021 09:10 |
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Originally posted by: Stefan Möding
Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> writes:
> Certainly my experience is that IT people loathe translated software
> (assuming the original was English, that is), and translated
> documentation even moreso. It wouldn't surprise me if this is the case
> everywhere on the planet.
Maybe it is twofold. Beginners may love to use the localized version because
it's easier for them. Later on they learn that posting English error messages
on UseNet/IRC/DiscussionBoard or even Google has a higher chance of getting
help.
--
Stefan
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| Re: Learning European languages [message #404757 is a reply to message #404726] |
Tue, 26 January 2021 14:06 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> wrote:
> On 2021-01-26, Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>>
>>> I would think English is a much harder language than German because of
>>> its quixotic spelling and pronunciation.
>>
>> I guess you're wrong here.
>>
>> Anyone here not a native English speaker, who learned English and German,
>> can tell what was harder to learn?
>
> I've definitely managed to learn English much more thoroughly than
> German, but I don't think it's a fair comparison. English is ubiquitous,
> as Peter touched upon.
>
> I started using computers at an early age, and while translated software
> existed even back then, you couldn't really rely on it existing, so
> English was a vital skill. Later I started reading books in English as
> well, and of course, Sweden doesn't dub anything intended for an
> audience old enough to read.
>
> Basically I got about the maximum amount of immersion possible without
> living in an English-speaking country.
>
> I could of course have immersed myself in German literature and whatnot
> as well, but could never quite work up the motivation. What was
> available in English generally interested me more, and I was already up
> to speed on that language.
>
>>> I (sort of) learned German for a number of reasons. One of them is that
>>> it’s the most widely-spoken language. I’d love to learn Gaelic, among
>>> others, but I think 1-1/2 languages are about my limit.
>>
>> German most widely spoken? I assume that is either Chinese (well they
>> have different flavors), Hindu (they also have) or Spanish. Almost all
>> countries of South America (Brazil might be one of the few exceptions)
>> have Spanish as official language.
>
> I took it to mean most widely spoken in Europe.
>
> Niklas
Yes. Sorry, I wasn’t clear.
--
Pete
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| Re: Learning European languages [message #404758 is a reply to message #404727] |
Tue, 26 January 2021 14:06 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 26 Jan 2021 04:15:57 GMT, Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> wrote:
>
>> On 2021-01-26, Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I would think English is a much harder language than German because of
>>>> its quixotic spelling and pronunciation.
>>>
>>> I guess you're wrong here.
>>>
>>> Anyone here not a native English speaker, who learned English and German,
>>> can tell what was harder to learn?
>>
>> I've definitely managed to learn English much more thoroughly than
>> German, but I don't think it's a fair comparison. English is ubiquitous,
>> as Peter touched upon.
>>
>> I started using computers at an early age, and while translated software
>> existed even back then, you couldn't really rely on it existing, so
>> English was a vital skill. Later I started reading books in English as
>> well, and of course, Sweden doesn't dub anything intended for an
>> audience old enough to read.
>>
>> Basically I got about the maximum amount of immersion possible without
>> living in an English-speaking country.
>>
>> I could of course have immersed myself in German literature and whatnot
>> as well, but could never quite work up the motivation. What was
>> available in English generally interested me more, and I was already up
>> to speed on that language.
>>
>>>> I (sort of) learned German for a number of reasons. One of them is that
>>>> it’s the most widely-spoken language. I’d love to learn Gaelic, among
>>>> others, but I think 1-1/2 languages are about my limit.
>>>
>>> German most widely spoken? I assume that is either Chinese (well they
>>> have different flavors), Hindu (they also have) or Spanish. Almost all
>>> countries of South America (Brazil might be one of the few exceptions)
>>> have Spanish as official language.
>>
>> I took it to mean most widely spoken in Europe.
>
> I'm told that India has many languages--only about 40% of the
> population are native speakers of Hindi. The most spoken language in
> the world is English, narrowly edging out Mandarin, with Hindi third
> and Spanish fourth. OTOH, Mandarin has the largest number of native
> speakers, followed by Spanish, English, and Hindi in that order.
>
I seem to recall that India wanted to eliminate English as an official
language in favor of Hindi only, but they got so much blowback from non
native-Hindi speakers that they backed down. English is seen as a neutral
language that doesn’t favor any particular ethnic group.
--
Pete
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| Re: Learning European languages [message #404777 is a reply to message #404726] |
Tue, 26 January 2021 17:23 |
Jorgen Grahn
Messages: 606
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Tue, 2021-01-26, Niklas Karlsson wrote:
....
> I could of course have immersed myself in German literature and whatnot
> as well, but could never quite work up the motivation. What was
> available in English generally interested me more, and I was already up
> to speed on that language.
Two things I have always wanted to read in German:
- Werner Rauh's "Beitrag zur kennits der peruanischer Kakteenvegetation"
- anything by Ernst Jünger not translated to Swedish (I try to avoid
translations to English; I don't know the translation conventions there)
But I learned French in school, not well enough to read Proust
(especially since we have an excellent translation of his work).
/Jorgen
--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
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| Re: Learning European languages [message #404783 is a reply to message #404747] |
Tue, 26 January 2021 18:07 |
Mike Spencer
Messages: 997
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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=?utf-8?Q?Stefan_M=C3=B6ding?= <Jan2021.5.kill-9@spamgourmet.com> writes:
> Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> writes:
>
>> Certainly my experience is that IT people loathe translated software
>> (assuming the original was English, that is), and translated
>> documentation even moreso. It wouldn't surprise me if this is the case
>> everywhere on the planet.
>
> Maybe it is twofold. Beginners may love to use the localized
> version because it's easier for them. Later on they learn that
> posting English error messages on UseNet/IRC/DiscussionBoard or even
> Google has a higher chance of getting help.
Years ago, there was a sys admin in Niu Gini who posted to
news.admin.net-abuse.email in Tok Pisin. Never posted in English so
it remained a mystery what h{is,er} English skills might have been.
--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
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| Re: Learning European languages [message #404798 is a reply to message #404738] |
Tue, 26 January 2021 22:59 |
Andreas Kohlbach
Messages: 1456
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Tue, 26 Jan 2021 11:59:29 +0100, Stefan Möding wrote:
>
> Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> writes:
>
>> When I got my Amiga 500 in 1989 it had a German manual, but the
>> translation for "bit planes" (if it even was translated; can't remember)
>> was still confusing.
>
> At university one of the operating system lecture books was a German
> translation; I think it might have been "Operating System Principles" by Per
> Brinch Hansen.
>
> It used a translation for every technical term: "What's a 'Keller'? Ah, he's
> talking about a stack...". Very difficult to understand if you're used to the
> English terms.
I think until the 90s Germans were like French are still today, clinging
on their language. Suppose today Germans broadly accept English terms in
the IT.
Funny thing many Germans (including me) might have even missed was the
presentation of the Amiga 1986 in Frankfurt. At the beginning a dude from
Commodore described the new machine and its features. It was so boring
that many people fell asleep. :-)
And although "Computer-Maus" (German for "computer mouse") should have
been know by many people in Germany working with computers in 1986 (well
I knew it back then), the guy said "Rollkugeleingabegerät", which could
be translated into "rolling ball input device". Not kidding, the video
exists on Youtube.
> Also the German localized error messages in early AIX were not helpful...
What was this message?
--
Andreas
Organization: https://news-commentaries.blogspot.com/
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| Re: Learning European languages [message #404804 is a reply to message #404798] |
Wed, 27 January 2021 01:44 |
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Originally posted by: Stefan Möding
Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> writes:
> I think until the 90s Germans were like French are still today, clinging
> on their language. Suppose today Germans broadly accept English terms in
> the IT.
I grew up in Germany near the Dutch and Belgian borders. In the 80's that
increased the number of available TV stations from 3 (German) channels to 7 or
8. Ca. 1983 there was a French computer magazine on the Belgian television:
not one familiar word (ordinateur => computer, octet => byte).
>> Also the German localized error messages in early AIX were not helpful...
> What was this message?
It wasn't a single message. Every error message was translated. Years later
a coworker always cited "Pfeife gebrochen" for "broken pipe" (which I'm quite
sure wasn't a real error message in any German translation).
--
Stefan
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| Re: Learning European languages [message #404824 is a reply to message #404726] |
Wed, 27 January 2021 11:58 |
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Originally posted by: JimP
On Tue, 26 Jan 2021 23:15:13 -0500, Andreas Kohlbach
<ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
> On 26 Jan 2021 22:23:43 GMT, Jorgen Grahn wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, 2021-01-26, Niklas Karlsson wrote:
>> ...
>>> I could of course have immersed myself in German literature and whatnot
>>> as well, but could never quite work up the motivation. What was
>>> available in English generally interested me more, and I was already up
>>> to speed on that language.
>>
>> Two things I have always wanted to read in German:
>>
>> - Werner Rauh's "Beitrag zur kennits der peruanischer Kakteenvegetation"
> ^^^^^^^ Kenntniss
>
> Really? That translates to something like
>
> Werner Rauhs "Article about the acknowledgment (or his knowledge?) of
> the cactus vegetation".
>
> Sounds like a very dry topic even Germans might have problems to digest,
> unless they deal with cactusses (cannot figure out the English plural).
cacti is the plural. Plurals in English are incredibly a pain, and I'm
a native American English speaker.
--
Jim
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| Re: Learning European languages [message #404826 is a reply to message #404824] |
Wed, 27 January 2021 12:17 |
Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> writes:
> On Tue, 26 Jan 2021 23:15:13 -0500, Andreas Kohlbach
> <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>> On 26 Jan 2021 22:23:43 GMT, Jorgen Grahn wrote:
>>>
>>> On Tue, 2021-01-26, Niklas Karlsson wrote:
>>> ...
>>>> I could of course have immersed myself in German literature and whatnot
>>>> as well, but could never quite work up the motivation. What was
>>>> available in English generally interested me more, and I was already up
>>>> to speed on that language.
>>>
>>> Two things I have always wanted to read in German:
>>>
>>> - Werner Rauh's "Beitrag zur kennits der peruanischer Kakteenvegetation"
>> ^^^^^^^ Kenntniss
>>
>> Really? That translates to something like
>>
>> Werner Rauhs "Article about the acknowledgment (or his knowledge?) of
>> the cactus vegetation".
>>
>> Sounds like a very dry topic even Germans might have problems to digest,
>> unless they deal with cactusses (cannot figure out the English plural).
>
> cacti is the plural. Plurals in English are incredibly a pain, and I'm
> a native American English speaker.
Well, you can always say mouses and catuses without fear of being
mis-understood.
--
Dan Espen
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| Re: Learning European languages [message #404830 is a reply to message #404727] |
Wed, 27 January 2021 12:55 |
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Originally posted by: Vir Campestris
On 26/01/2021 04:32, J. Clarke wrote:
>
> I'm told that India has many languages--only about 40% of the
> population are native speakers of Hindi. The most spoken language in
> the world is English, narrowly edging out Mandarin, with Hindi third
> and Spanish fourth. OTOH, Mandarin has the largest number of native
> speakers, followed by Spanish, English, and Hindi in that order.
>
The thing about English is that it's quite easy to be understood. You
can do many things to it, and still the understanding had can be...
OTOH it's been the language of the dominant economic power in the world
for several hundred years. That was the British Empire, now of course
it's the US.
(And BTW it's quadrilingual. Lingua is from the Latin, so you use the
Latin prefix. See also tetrahedron, where both parts come from the Greek.)
Andy
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| Re: Learning European languages [message #404832 is a reply to message #404824] |
Wed, 27 January 2021 13:21 |
Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2021-01-27, JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Jan 2021 23:15:13 -0500, Andreas Kohlbach
> <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>
>> On 26 Jan 2021 22:23:43 GMT, Jorgen Grahn wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 2021-01-26, Niklas Karlsson wrote:
>>> ...
>>>> I could of course have immersed myself in German literature and whatnot
>>>> as well, but could never quite work up the motivation. What was
>>>> available in English generally interested me more, and I was already up
>>>> to speed on that language.
>>>
>>> Two things I have always wanted to read in German:
>>>
>>> - Werner Rauh's "Beitrag zur kennits der peruanischer Kakteenvegetation"
>> ^^^^^^^ Kenntniss
>>
>> Really? That translates to something like
>>
>> Werner Rauhs "Article about the acknowledgment (or his knowledge?) of
>> the cactus vegetation".
>>
>> Sounds like a very dry topic even Germans might have problems to digest,
>> unless they deal with cactusses (cannot figure out the English plural).
>
> cacti is the plural. Plurals in English are incredibly a pain, and I'm
> a native American English speaker.
Singulars and plurals
Are so different, bless my soul
Has it ever occurred to you
That the plural of half is whole?
A bunch of tooth is teeth
A group of foot is feet
And two canaries make a pair
They call it a parakeet.
-- Allan Sherman
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | "Some of you may die,
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | but it's a sacrifice
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | I'm willing to make."
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Lord Farquaad (Shrek)
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| Re: Learning European languages [message #404863 is a reply to message #404726] |
Thu, 28 January 2021 04:20 |
Niklas Karlsson
Messages: 265
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2021-01-28, Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>
> The reason was that the GDR adopted the SÉCAM system like much of the
> Eastern Block. Of course France always had SÉCAM, they needed to be
> different from the rest of Western Europe. ;-)
Supposedly, American engineers having to produce devices compatible with
that standard expanded it to:
System Essentially Contrary to the American Method
Niklas
--
When I first encountered Unix in 1974, my first reaction was "The guys
who wrote this system probably can't type."
-- Alfred Falk
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| Re: Learning European languages [message #404866 is a reply to message #404863] |
Thu, 28 January 2021 05:27 |
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 28 Jan 2021 09:20:46 GMT
Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> wrote:
> On 2021-01-28, Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>>
>> The reason was that the GDR adopted the SÉCAM system like much of the
>> Eastern Block. Of course France always had SÉCAM, they needed to be
>> different from the rest of Western Europe. ;-)
>
> Supposedly, American engineers having to produce devices compatible with
> that standard expanded it to:
>
> System Essentially Contrary to the American Method
In the UK it was common to expand the US system as:
Never Twice the Same Colour
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
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| Re: Learning European languages [message #404867 is a reply to message #404863] |
Thu, 28 January 2021 06:31 |
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Originally posted by: gareth evans
On 28/01/2021 09:20, Niklas Karlsson wrote:
> On 2021-01-28, Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>>
>> The reason was that the GDR adopted the SÉCAM system like much of the
>> Eastern Block. Of course France always had SÉCAM, they needed to be
>> different from the rest of Western Europe. ;-)
>
> Supposedly, American engineers having to produce devices compatible with
> that standard expanded it to:
>
> System Essentially Contrary to the American Method
Ah yes! And NTSC was ...
Never The Same Colour
.... because of phasing errors, resolved by ...
Phase Alternated Line (PAL)
AKA ...
Peace At Last!
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| Re: Learning European languages [message #404872 is a reply to message #404869] |
Thu, 28 January 2021 10:26 |
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Originally posted by: gareth evans
On 28/01/2021 13:42, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 11:06:30 +0100, Stefan Möding
> <Jan2021.5.kill-9@spamgourmet.com> wrote:
>
>> Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> writes:
>>
>>> Supposedly, American engineers having to produce devices compatible with
>>> that standard expanded it to:
>>
>>> System Essentially Contrary to the American Method
>>
>> Yep, it's NTSC on the other side of the Atlantic:
>>
>> Never The Same Color
>
> It's not either of those anywhere anymore. (viewing on 4K TV)
>
Is the whole World now on MPEG2 coming via DVB?
What a waste of time to have learnt by heart the
colour sub-carriers, 4.4296875 for NTSC an
4.43361875 for PAL!
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| Re: Learning European languages [message #404884 is a reply to message #404872] |
Thu, 28 January 2021 13:47 |
Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2021-01-28, gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 28/01/2021 13:42, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 11:06:30 +0100, Stefan Möding
>> <Jan2021.5.kill-9@spamgourmet.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> writes:
>>>
>>>> Supposedly, American engineers having to produce devices compatible with
>>>> that standard expanded it to:
>>>
>>>> System Essentially Contrary to the American Method
>>>
>>> Yep, it's NTSC on the other side of the Atlantic:
>>>
>>> Never The Same Color
>>
>> It's not either of those anywhere anymore. (viewing on 4K TV)
>
> Is the whole World now on MPEG2 coming via DVB?
>
> What a waste of time to have learnt by heart the
> colour sub-carriers, 4.4296875 for NTSC an
> 4.43361875 for PAL!
Waitaminit, what about 3.579545?
(North American Amigas were clocked at exactly twice that frequency.)
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | "Some of you may die,
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | but it's a sacrifice
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | I'm willing to make."
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Lord Farquaad (Shrek)
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| Re: Learning European languages [message #404886 is a reply to message #404884] |
Thu, 28 January 2021 13:54 |
lawrence
Messages: 105
Registered: July 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
> On 2021-01-28, gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> On 28/01/2021 13:42, J. Clarke wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 11:06:30 +0100, Stefan Möding
>>> <Jan2021.5.kill-9@spamgourmet.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> writes:
>>>>
>>>> > Supposedly, American engineers having to produce devices compatible with
>>>> > that standard expanded it to:
>>>>
>>>> > System Essentially Contrary to the American Method
>>>>
>>>> Yep, it's NTSC on the other side of the Atlantic:
>>>>
>>>> Never The Same Color
>>>
>>> It's not either of those anywhere anymore. (viewing on 4K TV)
>>
>> Is the whole World now on MPEG2 coming via DVB?
>>
>> What a waste of time to have learnt by heart the
>> colour sub-carriers, 4.4296875 for NTSC an
>> 4.43361875 for PAL!
>
> Waitaminit, what about 3.579545?
> (North American Amigas were clocked at exactly twice that frequency.)
You can always count on someone to take the bait when a troll crawls out
of the killfile and purposefully posts misinformation.
The world thanks you for giving the idiot more exposure :-P
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| Re: Learning European languages [message #404893 is a reply to message #404884] |
Thu, 28 January 2021 15:04 |
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Originally posted by: gareth evans
On 28/01/2021 18:47, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2021-01-28, gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> On 28/01/2021 13:42, J. Clarke wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 11:06:30 +0100, Stefan Möding
>>> <Jan2021.5.kill-9@spamgourmet.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> writes:
>>>>
>>>> > Supposedly, American engineers having to produce devices compatible with
>>>> > that standard expanded it to:
>>>>
>>>> > System Essentially Contrary to the American Method
>>>>
>>>> Yep, it's NTSC on the other side of the Atlantic:
>>>>
>>>> Never The Same Color
>>>
>>> It's not either of those anywhere anymore. (viewing on 4K TV)
>>
>> Is the whole World now on MPEG2 coming via DVB?
>>
>> What a waste of time to have learnt by heart the
>> colour sub-carriers, 4.4296875 for NTSC an
>> 4.43361875 for PAL!
>
> Waitaminit, what about 3.579545?
> (North American Amigas were clocked at exactly twice that frequency.)
>
Oops! Yes! In USA, but in Brit was considered for 525 line NTSC
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| Re: Learning European languages [message #404894 is a reply to message #404886] |
Thu, 28 January 2021 15:06 |
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Originally posted by: gareth evans
On 28/01/2021 18:54, lawrence wrote:
> You can always count on someone to take the bait when a troll crawls out
> of the killfile and purposefully posts misinformation.
>
> The world thanks you for giving the idiot more exposure :-P
>
I don't know who you are, but there is no call for such gratuitous
rudeness.
Grow up, Sonny!
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| Re: Learning European languages [message #404897 is a reply to message #404777] |
Thu, 28 January 2021 15:13 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> wrote:
> On Tue, 2021-01-26, Niklas Karlsson wrote:
> ...
>> I could of course have immersed myself in German literature and whatnot
>> as well, but could never quite work up the motivation. What was
>> available in English generally interested me more, and I was already up
>> to speed on that language.
>
> Two things I have always wanted to read in German:
>
> - Werner Rauh's "Beitrag zur kennits der peruanischer Kakteenvegetation"
> - anything by Ernst Jünger not translated to Swedish (I try to avoid
> translations to English; I don't know the translation conventions there)
Eclectic choices!
--
Pete
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| Re: Learning European languages [message #404899 is a reply to message #404726] |
Thu, 28 January 2021 15:13 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
> On 26 Jan 2021 22:23:43 GMT, Jorgen Grahn wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, 2021-01-26, Niklas Karlsson wrote:
>> ...
>>> I could of course have immersed myself in German literature and whatnot
>>> as well, but could never quite work up the motivation. What was
>>> available in English generally interested me more, and I was already up
>>> to speed on that language.
>>
>> Two things I have always wanted to read in German:
>>
>> - Werner Rauh's "Beitrag zur kennits der peruanischer Kakteenvegetation"
> ^^^^^^^ Kenntniss
>
> Really? That translates to something like
>
> Werner Rauhs "Article about the acknowledgment (or his knowledge?) of
> the cactus vegetation".
Maybe “Report.”
>
> Sounds like a very dry topic even Germans might have problems to digest,
> unless they deal with cactusses (cannot figure out the English plural).
Cacti, although English is gradually losing special forms, so cactuses
works too. Likewise “dived” instead of “dove”, “pleaded” instead of “pled”,
etc. Datum as the singular of data is pretty much dead. I’m a language
prig, so it drives me crazy.
>
> I see it's from 1958. Amazon seems to have it for around 80€ as book or
> 36€ as E-book.
--
Pete
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| Re: Learning European languages [message #404906 is a reply to message #404899] |
Thu, 28 January 2021 16:03 |
Rich Alderson
Messages: 489
Registered: August 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
> Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>> On 26 Jan 2021 22:23:43 GMT, Jorgen Grahn wrote:
>>>
>>> On Tue, 2021-01-26, Niklas Karlsson wrote:
>>> ...
>>>> I could of course have immersed myself in German literature and whatnot
>>>> as well, but could never quite work up the motivation. What was
>>>> available in English generally interested me more, and I was already up
>>>> to speed on that language.
>>> Two things I have always wanted to read in German:
>>> - Werner Rauh's "Beitrag zur kennits der peruanischer Kakteenvegetation"
>> ^^^^^^^ Kenntniss
>> Really? That translates to something like
>> Werner Rauhs "Article about the acknowledgment (or his knowledge?) of
>> the cactus vegetation".
> Maybe "Report."
>> Sounds like a very dry topic even Germans might have problems to digest,
>> unless they deal with cactusses (cannot figure out the English plural).
> Cacti, although English is gradually losing special forms, so cactuses works
> too. Likewise "dived" instead of "dove", "pleaded" instead of "pled",
> etc. Datum as the singular of data is pretty much dead. I'm a language prig,
> so it drives me crazy.
The one that keeps grinding my gut is "shined" for "shone", as in "The ensemble
shined in their performance". There are two verbs "to shine", just as there
are two verbs "to hang", one intransitive and one transitive. They are
differentiated by strong vs. weak conjugation ("irregular" vs. "regular" verbs):
1. They hanged him for treason. He hung on the tree until he rotted.
2. He shined his shoes. They shone like diamonds.
--
Rich Alderson news@alderson.users.panix.com
Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
--Galen
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| Re: Learning European languages [message #404911 is a reply to message #404899] |
Thu, 28 January 2021 16:24 |
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Originally posted by: J. Clarke
On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 13:13:38 -0700, Peter Flass
<peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>> On 26 Jan 2021 22:23:43 GMT, Jorgen Grahn wrote:
>>>
>>> On Tue, 2021-01-26, Niklas Karlsson wrote:
>>> ...
>>>> I could of course have immersed myself in German literature and whatnot
>>>> as well, but could never quite work up the motivation. What was
>>>> available in English generally interested me more, and I was already up
>>>> to speed on that language.
>>>
>>> Two things I have always wanted to read in German:
>>>
>>> - Werner Rauh's "Beitrag zur kennits der peruanischer Kakteenvegetation"
>> ^^^^^^^ Kenntniss
>>
>> Really? That translates to something like
>>
>> Werner Rauhs "Article about the acknowledgment (or his knowledge?) of
>> the cactus vegetation".
>
> Maybe “Report.”
>
>>
>> Sounds like a very dry topic even Germans might have problems to digest,
>> unless they deal with cactusses (cannot figure out the English plural).
>
> Cacti, although English is gradually losing special forms, so cactuses
> works too. Likewise “dived” instead of “dove”, “pleaded” instead of “pled”,
> etc. Datum as the singular of data is pretty much dead. I’m a language
> prig, so it drives me crazy.
And conversely, while not something you would do in formal writing, in
conversation any noun that ends with a vowel and "s" can probably be
pluralized to humorous and comprehensible effect with an i. Like
there was a notice on the bulletin board in the AE department at OSU,
that the FAA was looking for people to work in a biometric research
program. It was long and dry and written in opaque governmentese. The
first person to figure out what the job was summarized it as "Oh,
measuring stewardi".
>> I see it's from 1958. Amazon seems to have it for around 80€ as book or
>> 36€ as E-book.
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| Re: Learning European languages [message #404913 is a reply to message #404899] |
Thu, 28 January 2021 17:12 |
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Originally posted by: Kerr-Mudd,John
On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 20:13:38 GMT, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>> On 26 Jan 2021 22:23:43 GMT, Jorgen Grahn wrote:
>>>
>>> On Tue, 2021-01-26, Niklas Karlsson wrote:
>>> ...
>>>> I could of course have immersed myself in German literature and
>>>> whatnot as well, but could never quite work up the motivation. What
>>>> was available in English generally interested me more, and I was
>>>> already up to speed on that language.
>>>
>>> Two things I have always wanted to read in German:
>>>
>>> - Werner Rauh's "Beitrag zur kennits der peruanischer
>>> Kakteenvegetation"
>> ^^^^^^^ Kenntniss
>>
>> Really? That translates to something like
>>
>> Werner Rauhs "Article about the acknowledgment (or his knowledge?) of
>> the cactus vegetation".
>
> Maybe “Report.”
>
>>
>> Sounds like a very dry topic even Germans might have problems to
>> digest, unless they deal with cactusses (cannot figure out the
>> English plural).
>
> Cacti, although English is gradually losing special forms, so cactuses
> works too. Likewise “dived” instead of “dove”, “pleaded”
> instead of “pled”, etc. Datum as the singular of data is pretty
> much dead. I’m a language prig, so it drives me crazy.
>
I'm a 7-bit ASCII Prig.
>>
>> I see it's from 1958. Amazon seems to have it for around 80€ as
>> book or 36€ as E-book.
>
>
>
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
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| Re: Learning European languages [message #404915 is a reply to message #404911] |
Thu, 28 January 2021 18:00 |
Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2021-01-28, J Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 13:13:38 -0700, Peter Flass
> <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Cacti, although English is gradually losing special forms, so cactuses
>> works too. Likewise “dived” instead of “dove”, “pleaded” instead of “pled”,
>> etc. Datum as the singular of data is pretty much dead. I’m a language
>> prig, so it drives me crazy.
>
> And conversely, while not something you would do in formal writing, in
> conversation any noun that ends with a vowel and "s" can probably be
> pluralized to humorous and comprehensible effect with an i. Like
> there was a notice on the bulletin board in the AE department at OSU,
> that the FAA was looking for people to work in a biometric research
> program. It was long and dry and written in opaque governmentese. The
> first person to figure out what the job was summarized it as "Oh,
> measuring stewardi".
A friend pluralizes "doofus" as "doofi".
Then there's the famous Wayne and Shuster sketch
_Rinse the Blood Off My Toga_, where they played it backwards:
Bartender: What're you drinking?
Flavius: Gimme a martinus.
Bartender: You mean a martini.
Flavius: If I wanted two I'd ask for them.
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | "Some of you may die,
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | but it's a sacrifice
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | I'm willing to make."
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Lord Farquaad (Shrek)
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| Re: Learning European languages [message #404916 is a reply to message #404906] |
Thu, 28 January 2021 18:00 |
Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2021-01-28, Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> wrote:
> The one that keeps grinding my gut is "shined" for "shone", as in "The
> ensemble shined in their performance". There are two verbs "to shine",
> just as there are two verbs "to hang", one intransitive and one transitive.
> They are differentiated by strong vs. weak conjugation ("irregular" vs.
> "regular" verbs):
>
> 1. They hanged him for treason. He hung on the tree until he rotted.
> 2. He shined his shoes. They shone like diamonds.
Which one is being used in the movie _The Shining_? <g,d&r>
The one that bothers me is when people talk about "an email".
"Email", being derived from "mail", should be a collective noun.
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | "Some of you may die,
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | but it's a sacrifice
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | I'm willing to make."
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Lord Farquaad (Shrek)
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| Re: Learning European languages [message #404920 is a reply to message #404865] |
Thu, 28 January 2021 20:47 |
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Originally posted by: Fred Smith
On 2021-01-28, Stefan Möding <Jan2021.5.kill-9@spamgourmet.com> wrote:
> Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> writes:
>
>> Supposedly, American engineers having to produce devices compatible with
>> that standard expanded it to:
>
>> System Essentially Contrary to the American Method
>
> Yep, it's NTSC on the other side of the Atlantic:
>
> Never The Same Color
>
And to complete the trio of redundant analogue TV video standards,
PAL was "Perfect At Last."
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| Re: Learning European languages [message #404924 is a reply to message #404899] |
Thu, 28 January 2021 21:44 |
Mike Spencer
Messages: 997
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
> Cacti, although English is gradually losing special forms, so
> cactuses works too. Likewise "dived" instead of "dove", "pleaded"
> instead of "pled", etc. Datum as the singular of data is pretty much
> dead.
Not to mention "medium".
> I'm a language prig, so it drives me crazy.
Same. Irregular verbs [1] and Latinate plurals are both vanishing breeds.
OTOH, a university friend was, back circa '67, was mildly ridiculed for
referring to "musea" is public speaking.
[1] I'm keeping a list, Be warned. ;-)
cleaved (not clove; Robert Reich)
dived (Dove alleged to be US neologism, dived orig. Brit-correct.)
kneeled (not knelt, news media re, NFL)
strived (G&M, 27 Jan 2011; Sep 2017)
shine (eyes shined, Martrin Cruz Smith, _Three Stations_)
shrinked (Bob Eager, a.f.c)
shoed (v.tr. instead of shod, as of a horse)
thrived (Bloomberg, 2018)
treaded (Texas Tribune, 12/2020; telegraph.co.uk)
weaved (several instances)
--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
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| Email is collective (Was: Learning European languages) [message #404925 is a reply to message #404916] |
Thu, 28 January 2021 22:06 |
Mike Spencer
Messages: 997
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
> The one that bothers me is when people talk about "an email".
> "Email", being derived from "mail", should be a collective noun.
Fully agreed, burns my mental butt every time. But the lexical tide
rises. Like the instance in The Jargon File (aka The Hacker's
Dictionary) in which people cheered when a long-suffering holdout
finally "used 'canonical' in the canonical sense", I eventually caught
myself saying "an email". Bit my tongue, of course, said six Mea
Culpas and resolved to live a better life but, yew kno, I *did* say
it.
Pursuing the thought into anecdote-land: The guy who first got me
hooked up with the net and an email address at a prestigious
institution to which I had no formal connection, was in the workplace
habit of shutting down conversations by saying, "Send me email" and
walking off. Thirty years later, he now lives 20 miles away from me.
The virus has brought visits and hanging out at the local
bakery/bookstore/cafe unworkable. But he can't be persuaded to put
finger to keyboard for more than one-liners. (While this post that
you're now reading evinces my uncoerced willingness to natter
keyboardily at length.)
Oy! Folklore implies long ago in some sense. Anybody reading this
have detailed recollections of downtown Boston, Mass. in the 50s &
60s, particularly of the area around Winter St. and Music Hall Place?
I've gotten a rabbit across my donkey trying to identify a drinking
establishment there, open in '65, extant but closed circa '90, now
possibly demolished. I can post helpful details if anybody waves
their [1] hand.
[1] Yes, plural, I know. I've learned to live with it. ;-)
--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
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| Re: Learning European languages [message #404927 is a reply to message #404916] |
Thu, 28 January 2021 23:30 |
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Originally posted by: J. Clarke
On 28 Jan 2021 23:00:58 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
wrote:
> On 2021-01-28, Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> wrote:
>
>> The one that keeps grinding my gut is "shined" for "shone", as in "The
>> ensemble shined in their performance". There are two verbs "to shine",
>> just as there are two verbs "to hang", one intransitive and one transitive.
>> They are differentiated by strong vs. weak conjugation ("irregular" vs.
>> "regular" verbs):
>>
>> 1. They hanged him for treason. He hung on the tree until he rotted.
>> 2. He shined his shoes. They shone like diamonds.
>
> Which one is being used in the movie _The Shining_? <g,d&r>
>
> The one that bothers me is when people talk about "an email".
> "Email", being derived from "mail", should be a collective noun.
Just an aside--I'm flashing on Agatha Heterodyne's first social
encounter with the Jagerkin. Three of them have been hanged.
Apparently they have been hanging for two days or so when she
encounters them. They are having a conversation about how angry
someone (we don't find out who until later) is going to be with them.
Jagerkin are tough.
<https://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20050513>
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| Re: Email is collective (Was: Learning European languages) [message #404943 is a reply to message #404925] |
Fri, 29 January 2021 12:08 |
Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2021-01-29, Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>
>> The one that bothers me is when people talk about "an email".
>> "Email", being derived from "mail", should be a collective noun.
>
> Fully agreed, burns my mental butt every time.
<snip>
> (While this post that you're now reading evinces my uncoerced
> willingness to natter keyboardily at length.)
Another thing I hate is this obsessive belief that every noun
can (and should) be verbed, when perfectly good verbs already
exist. "Keyboarding" is one of the worst. But I've never
seen it adverbed before. I'm not too sure what to think
about this, although it probably falls into that discussion
about humour in _The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress_, where jokes
were divided into "funny once" and "funny always" categories.
Manny: Use it once, you're a wit.
Use it twice, you're a half-wit.
Mike: Geometric progression?
Manny: Or worse.
> I can post helpful details if anybody waves their [1] hand.
>
> [1] Yes, plural, I know. I've learned to live with it. ;-)
I haven't gone that far yet. Yes, the old practice of using
a male construct as a general case does need some work. But
substituting a plural for a singlar is too much.
I've heard that some Spanish speakers are working on
gender-neutral forms in their language. We need that here.
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | "Some of you may die,
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | but it's a sacrifice
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | I'm willing to make."
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Lord Farquaad (Shrek)
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