| Re: Too much for one lifetime? :-) [message #404759 is a reply to message #404735] |
Tue, 26 January 2021 14:06   |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
> maus <maus@dmaus.org> schrieb:
>> On 2021-01-26, Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>
>>> Anyway, suppose Dutch was also on their repertoire. They were truly
>>> quad... (what comes after trilingual?).
>>
>> Luxenburg, AFAIK, has its own dialect
>
> Switzerland is even more extreme.
>
> The written version of Swiss German is almost identical to that
> of Germany, with a few words that are different and one variant
> in spelling, they do not use the ß and write ss instead.
>
> ("Trinkt Aklohol in Maßen" means "Drink alcohol in moderation".
> In the Swiss variant, you have to write this as "Trinkt Alkohol
> in Massen", which in standard German means "Drink lots and lots
> of alcohol". Go figure.)
>
> However, Swiss German has a "dialect continuum", which means that
> the dialect varies from canton to canton, and people from different
> cantons may have real trouble understanding each other. For people
> from Germany, Swiss German can be almost impossible to understand.
For people from Germany, people from other regions can be difficult to
understand, but there may be fewer regional dialects in Germany than in
England.
>
> Most Swiss know how to speak standard German (with an accent).
> I think the news is usually read using standard German, but that
> is changing a little towards Swiss German now.
>
--
Pete
|
|
|
|
| Re: Too much for one lifetime? :-) [message #404760 is a reply to message #404736] |
Tue, 26 January 2021 14:06 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Kerr-Mudd,John <notsaying@127.0.0.1> wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Jan 2021 08:23:54 GMT, maus <maus@dmaus.org> wrote:
>
>> On 2021-01-26, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
>>> In article
>>> <202855318.633307912.602706.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-septemb
>>> er.org>, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> > But if you want to have a "new official language" in the EU you
>>>> > might have to look at German.
>>>>
>>>> Somewhere I read that official EU documents have to be published in
>>>> the official language of each of the member states. If no country has
>>>> English as its official language then English is no longer required.
>>>
>>> I think you have made a lot of Irish people sad.
>>>
>> And a great many happy. Irish people only start liking Gaelic when
>> they emigrate. Otherwise it is a PITA.
>>>
>>>> > I don't think anybody wants to learn German or Gaelic in Europe.
>>>
>>> Lots of people want to learn German if they plan to live or work in
>>> Germany or Austria or Switzerland.
>>>
>> In the latter two, local variants are common.
>>>
>>>
>>> While most German speakers speak at
>>> least some English, you're at a disadvantage if you have to ask
>>> people to switch. My German is pretty bad, but I found that people in
>>> Germany appreciated and were sometimes amused by my efforts to speak
>>> their language.
>>
>> ``Why are you strangling my language?''
>>>
>>>
>>> On the other hand, everyone in Ireland and Scotland now speaks
>>> English. While there are cultural and political reasons one might
>>> learn Irish or Gaelic, you don't need it to communicate.
>>>
>>> I read somewhere that the EU has chronic problems finding translators
>>> between their minor languages, e.g. between Danish and Greek. They
>>> don't want to fall back to double translation with a a major language
>>> in between.
>>>
>> Politics rears its ugly head. During the 30s, there was a movement to
>> replace English words with German in Germany `fernseher'?. Up North,
>> speaking Gaelic will identify one as a Republican, whereas speaking
>> Welsh in Wales does not send any message.
>>
> I think that the English consider that people speaking Welsh in the
> company of an English person is a snub!
In mixed company it is. I hear French people,do, or did, will refuse answer
a question in English, even if they speak and understand the language.
>
> IRRC the last monolingual Welsh speaker died in the 1980s.
> I see the Irish can name theirs:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Se%C3%A1n_%C3%93_hEinir%C3%AD
It’s dad to see a language fade out. Each different language is really a
different way of thinking about things
--
Pete
|
|
|
|
| Re: Too much for one lifetime? :-) [message #404761 is a reply to message #404751] |
Tue, 26 January 2021 14:06 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Jan 2021 22:35:07 -0500, Andreas Kohlbach
> <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>> On Mon, 25 Jan 2021 16:02:37 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:
>>>
>>> Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 22 Jan 2021 17:49:09 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Has the EU solved the official language problem yet? I read somewhere
>>>> > that Gaelic is the official language of Ireland ( maybe co-equal with
>>>> > English?) and with BREXIT that left no EU member whose official language
>>>> > was English, so it was no longer an official language of the EU.
>>>>
>>>> There is no language problem in the EU. English is and was the language
>>>> of business and IT, and that is unlikely to change.
>>>>
>>>> I heard that if you want to work in an office at Nestle in Switzerland
>>>> speaking any of the four Swiss languages (German, French, Italian and
>>>> Romansh, sorted by numbers of speakers) won't help. You need to speak
>>>> English.
>>>>
>>>> But if you want to have a "new official language" in the EU you might
>>>> have to look at German.
>>>
>>> Somewhere I read that official EU documents have to be published in the
>>> official language of each of the member states. If no country has English
>>> as its official language then English is no longer required.
>>
>> The EU has still a long way ahead to become one country. So documents are
>> handled like in the past X hundred year inside of every country. That
>> might be different in the European parliament. Am guessing here and
>> assume they are issued in all languages of the members of the EU. Some
>> countries, like Germany, Austria and parts of Switzerland can be
>> eliminated because they speak German, while France and Italy take care
>> of the French and Italian parts of Switzerland.
>>
>> Then look at the United Nations HQ in New York. Suppose not everyone
>> speaks English.
>>
>>>> German speakers account for the largest group
>>>> inside Europe. But that won't happen either. Everybody seems to be happy
>>>> with English now. And German is much harder to learn than English, if you
>>>> are from Spain, France, Italy or any other country with its own proper
>>>> language.
>>>
>>> Every country is jealous of its own language. The French would probably
>>> never accept German, and vise-versa.
>>
>> Yes, I agree.
>>
>>> I would think English is a much harder language than German because of
>>> its quixotic spelling and pronunciation.
>>
>> I guess you're wrong here.
>>
>> Anyone here not a native English speaker, who learned English and German,
>> can tell what was harder to learn?
>>
>>> Its only advantage is its ubiquity, so everyone has some exposure to
>>> it. German is pronounced as its spelled.
>>
>> With few exception, plus regional differences.
>>
>>>> I don't think anybody wants to learn German or Gaelic in Europe.
>>>
>>> I (sort of) learned German for a number of reasons. One of them is that
>>> its the most widely-spoken language. Id love to learn Gaelic, among
>>> others, but I think 1-1/2 languages are about my limit.
>>
>> German most widely spoken? I assume that is either Chinese (well they
>> have different flavors), Hindu (they also have) or Spanish. Almost all
>> countries of South America (Brazil might be one of the few exceptions)
>> have Spanish as official language.
>>
>> French might also have a large area outside mainland France. Many African
>> countries for example.
>
> In US high schools we were taught Castilliano Spanish. A closer to
> formal Spanish, I have been told. I know that when I tried to use what
> I remembered when my ship pulling into Barcelona, I was told they
> couldn't understand me. Then someone pointed out, in English, I was
> speaking a version of Spanish common in one province of Spain.
>
> I have no idea why we weren't taught something we could use.
>
You probably could, if you were in Madrid. Barcelona is in Catalonia, and
Catalan is common, and onsidered a separate language. I always thought US
schools should teach Mexican Spanish.
--
Pete
|
|
|
|
| Re: Too much for one lifetime? :-) [message #404762 is a reply to message #404753] |
Tue, 26 January 2021 14:17 |
|
|
Originally posted by: jolomo
Not so long ago, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2021-01-26, JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> wrote:
>> In US high schools we were taught Castilliano Spanish. A closer to
>> formal Spanish, I have been told. I know that when I tried to use what
>> I remembered when my ship pulling into Barcelona, I was told they
>> couldn't understand me. Then someone pointed out, in English, I was
>> speaking a version of Spanish common in one province of Spain.
>>
>> I have no idea why we weren't taught something we could use.
> By the same token, Canadian schools taught Parisian French.
> Many people felt we should be taught Quebec French, although
> there was some concern that we might all sink into some sort
> of filthy lower-class joual.
When I was growing up in Texas, they taught Castillian Spanish
instead of what the locals spoke. I took Latin instead :)
--
Joe Morris
jolomo@gmail.com
|
|
|
|
| Re: Too much for one lifetime? :-) [message #404764 is a reply to message #404761] |
Tue, 26 January 2021 14:43 |
|
|
Originally posted by: JimP
On Tue, 26 Jan 2021 12:06:30 -0700, Peter Flass
<peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 25 Jan 2021 22:35:07 -0500, Andreas Kohlbach
>> <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 25 Jan 2021 16:02:37 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>>>> > On Fri, 22 Jan 2021 17:49:09 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Has the EU solved the ?official language? problem yet? I read somewhere
>>>> >> that Gaelic is the official language of Ireland ( maybe co-equal with
>>>> >> English?) and with BREXIT that left no EU member whose official language
>>>> >> was English, so it was no longer an official language of the EU.
>>>> >
>>>> > There is no language problem in the EU. English is and was the language
>>>> > of business and IT, and that is unlikely to change.
>>>> >
>>>> > I heard that if you want to work in an office at Nestle in Switzerland
>>>> > speaking any of the four Swiss languages (German, French, Italian and
>>>> > Romansh, sorted by numbers of speakers) won't help. You need to speak
>>>> > English.
>>>> >
>>>> > But if you want to have a "new official language" in the EU you might
>>>> > have to look at German.
>>>>
>>>> Somewhere I read that official EU documents have to be published in the
>>>> official language of each of the member states. If no country has English
>>>> as its official language then English is no longer required.
>>>
>>> The EU has still a long way ahead to become one country. So documents are
>>> handled like in the past X hundred year inside of every country. That
>>> might be different in the European parliament. Am guessing here and
>>> assume they are issued in all languages of the members of the EU. Some
>>> countries, like Germany, Austria and parts of Switzerland can be
>>> eliminated because they speak German, while France and Italy take care
>>> of the French and Italian parts of Switzerland.
>>>
>>> Then look at the United Nations HQ in New York. Suppose not everyone
>>> speaks English.
>>>
>>>> > German speakers account for the largest group
>>>> > inside Europe. But that won't happen either. Everybody seems to be happy
>>>> > with English now. And German is much harder to learn than English, if you
>>>> > are from Spain, France, Italy or any other country with its own proper
>>>> > language.
>>>>
>>>> Every country is jealous of its own language. The French would probably
>>>> never accept German, and vise-versa.
>>>
>>> Yes, I agree.
>>>
>>>> I would think English is a much harder language than German because of
>>>> its quixotic spelling and pronunciation.
>>>
>>> I guess you're wrong here.
>>>
>>> Anyone here not a native English speaker, who learned English and German,
>>> can tell what was harder to learn?
>>>
>>>> Its only advantage is its ubiquity, so everyone has some exposure to
>>>> it. German is pronounced as it?s spelled.
>>>
>>> With few exception, plus regional differences.
>>>
>>>> > I don't think anybody wants to learn German or Gaelic in Europe.
>>>>
>>>> I (sort of) learned German for a number of reasons. One of them is that
>>>> it?s the most widely-spoken language. I?d love to learn Gaelic, among
>>>> others, but I think 1-1/2 languages are about my limit.
>>>
>>> German most widely spoken? I assume that is either Chinese (well they
>>> have different flavors), Hindu (they also have) or Spanish. Almost all
>>> countries of South America (Brazil might be one of the few exceptions)
>>> have Spanish as official language.
>>>
>>> French might also have a large area outside mainland France. Many African
>>> countries for example.
>>
>> In US high schools we were taught Castilliano Spanish. A closer to
>> formal Spanish, I have been told. I know that when I tried to use what
>> I remembered when my ship pulling into Barcelona, I was told they
>> couldn't understand me. Then someone pointed out, in English, I was
>> speaking a version of Spanish common in one province of Spain.
>>
>> I have no idea why we weren't taught something we could use.
>>
>
> You probably could, if you were in Madrid. Barcelona is in Catalonia, and
> Catalan is common, and onsidered a separate language. I always thought US
> schools should teach Mexican Spanish.
None of my high school Spanish teachers were from Mexico. I had my
first class in Texas. IIRC, my teachers were from Columbia, Nicaragua,
and Cuba. My junior college teacher in Spanish, as far I could tell,
didn't grow up speaking Spanish, but she was very good at it.
--
Jim
|
|
|
|
| Re: Too much for one lifetime? :-) [message #404765 is a reply to message #404762] |
Tue, 26 January 2021 14:46 |
|
|
Originally posted by: JimP
On Tue, 26 Jan 2021 19:17:45 +0000 (UTC), jolomo@gmail.com (Joe
Morris) wrote:
> Not so long ago, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>> On 2021-01-26, JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> In US high schools we were taught Castilliano Spanish. A closer to
>>> formal Spanish, I have been told. I know that when I tried to use what
>>> I remembered when my ship pulling into Barcelona, I was told they
>>> couldn't understand me. Then someone pointed out, in English, I was
>>> speaking a version of Spanish common in one province of Spain.
>>>
>>> I have no idea why we weren't taught something we could use.
>
>> By the same token, Canadian schools taught Parisian French.
>> Many people felt we should be taught Quebec French, although
>> there was some concern that we might all sink into some sort
>> of filthy lower-class joual.
>
> When I was growing up in Texas, they taught Castillian Spanish
> instead of what the locals spoke. I took Latin instead :)
I, and most of my fellow students in Texas, were not allowed to take
Latin unless we or our parents could convince the school the kid was
going to be a doctor or some other job that used latin. So most of us
wound up learning Spanish.
--
Jim
|
|
|
|
| Re: Too much for one lifetime? :-) [message #404766 is a reply to message #404751] |
Tue, 26 January 2021 15:05 |
|
|
Originally posted by: drb
> I have no idea why we weren't taught something we could use.
There seems to be a common belief that teaching something more formal
(Castilian Spanish, "Modern Standard" [more Quranic, we were told]
Arabic) makes it more likely that you'll be able to communicate with
whomever you encounter.
"More likely" is of course statistical, and even then may or may not be
correct.
De
|
|
|
|
| Re: Too much for one lifetime? :-) [message #404767 is a reply to message #404764] |
Tue, 26 January 2021 15:49 |
scott
Messages: 4237
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> writes:
> On Tue, 26 Jan 2021 12:06:30 -0700, Peter Flass
>>>
>>> In US high schools we were taught Castilliano Spanish. A closer to
>>> formal Spanish, I have been told. I know that when I tried to use what
>>> I remembered when my ship pulling into Barcelona, I was told they
>>> couldn't understand me. Then someone pointed out, in English, I was
>>> speaking a version of Spanish common in one province of Spain.
>>>
>>> I have no idea why we weren't taught something we could use.
>>>
>>
>> You probably could, if you were in Madrid. Barcelona is in Catalonia, and
>> Catalan is common, and onsidered a separate language. I always thought US
>> schools should teach Mexican Spanish.
>
> None of my high school Spanish teachers were from Mexico. I had my
> first class in Texas. IIRC, my teachers were from Columbia, Nicaragua,
> and Cuba. My junior college teacher in Spanish, as far I could tell,
> didn't grow up speaking Spanish, but she was very good at it.
That was, I suppose many decades ago now.
My nieces both went to spanish immersion school for the six
years of grade school in california. It's been immeasurably
useful for both as adults.
My niece's car had been stolen when she was in Oakland
on business a few years back - when it was recovered she
and her mom (nordic blonde types) went to the auto shop
where the recovered vehicle was stored to pick it up and
the employees started making lewd comments in spanish,
which my niece quickly shut down in literate spanish and they became
quite cooperative.
|
|
|
|
| Re: Too much for one lifetime? :-) [message #404768 is a reply to message #404755] |
Tue, 26 January 2021 16:13 |
Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On 2021-01-26, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> German seems to use fewer verb tenses. English is fussier about past,
> past perfect, etc.
And then you see all those auxiliary verbs piled up at the end of a
German sentence...
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | "Some of you may die,
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | but it's a sacrifice
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | I'm willing to make."
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Lord Farquaad (Shrek)
|
|
|
|
| Re: Too much for one lifetime? :-) [message #404769 is a reply to message #404756] |
Tue, 26 January 2021 16:18 |
|
|
Originally posted by: Kerr-Mudd,John
On Tue, 26 Jan 2021 19:06:26 GMT, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>> On Mon, 25 Jan 2021 16:02:37 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:
>>>
>>> Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 22 Jan 2021 17:49:09 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Has the EU solved the “official language” problem yet? I read
>>>> > somewhere that Gaelic is the official language of Ireland ( maybe
>>>> > co-equal with English?) and with BREXIT that left no EU member
>>>> > whose official language was English, so it was no longer an
>>>> > official language of the EU.
>>>>
>>>> There is no language problem in the EU. English is and was the
>>>> language of business and IT, and that is unlikely to change.
>>>>
>>>> I heard that if you want to work in an office at Nestle in
>>>> Switzerland speaking any of the four Swiss languages (German,
>>>> French, Italian and Romansh, sorted by numbers of speakers) won't
>>>> help. You need to speak English.
>>>>
>>>> But if you want to have a "new official language" in the EU you
>>>> might have to look at German.
>>>
>>> Somewhere I read that official EU documents have to be published in
>>> the official language of each of the member states. If no country
>>> has English as its official language then English is no longer
>>> required.
>>
>> The EU has still a long way ahead to become one country. So documents
>> are handled like in the past X hundred year inside of every country.
>> That might be different in the European parliament. Am guessing here
>> and assume they are issued in all languages of the members of the EU.
>> Some countries, like Germany, Austria and parts of Switzerland can be
>> eliminated because they speak German, while France and Italy take
>> care of the French and Italian parts of Switzerland.
>>
>
> I don’t think Switzerland is an EU country, but there are
> differences among Swiss, Austrian, and German German. How do they
AIUI there's quite a few different German Germans!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_dialects
(and variations even within Austria)
> handle spelling differences? It’s like US, Canadian, and UK
> spelling. Everyone likes to see things the way they’re used to, even
> if it’s as minor as “color” vs “colour”.
>
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Too much for one lifetime? :-) [message #404771 is a reply to message #404766] |
Tue, 26 January 2021 16:34 |
Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) writes:
>> I have no idea why we weren't taught something we could use.
>
> There seems to be a common belief that teaching something more formal
> (Castilian Spanish, "Modern Standard" [more Quranic, we were told]
> Arabic) makes it more likely that you'll be able to communicate with
> whomever you encounter.
>
> "More likely" is of course statistical, and even then may or may not be
> correct.
There's also the issue of teaching material.
You need text books, tests, etc.
--
Dan Espen
|
|
|
|
| Re: Too much for one lifetime? :-) [message #404773 is a reply to message #404725] |
Tue, 26 January 2021 16:42 |
Rich Alderson
Messages: 489
Registered: August 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> writes:
> In article <87v9bkgzm2.fsf@usenet.ankman.de>,
> Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>> English has (for my knowledge) only one case.
> It has two and a half.
> The two are nominative (the pig) and possessive (the pig's.) The half is
> objective which only applies to four pronouns, I/me, he/him, she/her,
> they/them. The other two pronouns have the same objective form it/it,
> you/you.
In slightly older English (but later than Shakespeare), you still see the
difference between ye/you and thou/thee.
> Possessive case is extremely regular other than the six pronouns.
Dialectally less regular than you might think.
he/his/him
she/her/her
it/its/it
they/their/them
I/mine/me
thou/thine/thee
we/our/us
ye/your/you
_my_ and _thy_ actually arise from the *dropping* of the (phonologically) final
-n before consonants, which was later generalized to all contexts; in the older
language, "my own" was "mine own", for example.
Dialectally, the final -n was *generalized*, so that forms like _hisn_, _hern_,
and _yourn_ occur in speech. (Part of my childhood in Texas was spent with
people who said things like "This one is mine, and that one is yourn.")
Similarly, the predicate forms _hers_ and _yours_ arise from a generalization
of the final -s of _his_ and _its_ along with the general -s of nouns.
--
Rich Alderson news@alderson.users.panix.com
Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
--Galen
|
|
|
|
| Re: Too much for one lifetime? :-) [message #404774 is a reply to message #404756] |
Tue, 26 January 2021 16:57 |
|
|
Originally posted by: Thomas Koenig
Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> schrieb:
> I don’t think Switzerland is an EU country,
You're right, it is not.
> but there are differences
> among Swiss, Austrian, and German German.
There are actually four official languages in Switzerland: German,
French, Italian and Romansh. Most people who speak German in
Swizerland speak Swiss German, fewer speak Swiss Standard German.
> How do they handle spelling
> differences?
There are only very few (plus a few words which are different).
The only difference I know is that Swiss Standard German does not
use the ß (sharp s), using ss instead.
There is no commonly agreed form to write Swiss German, people
use Swiss Standard German instead.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Too much for one lifetime? :-) [message #404778 is a reply to message #404753] |
Tue, 26 January 2021 17:25 |
Mike Spencer
Messages: 997
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
> On 2021-01-26, JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> In US high schools we were taught Castilliano Spanish. A closer to
>> formal Spanish, I have been told. I know that when I tried to use what
>> I remembered when my ship pulling into Barcelona, I was told they
>> couldn't understand me. Then someone pointed out, in English, I was
>> speaking a version of Spanish common in one province of Spain.
>>
>> I have no idea why we weren't taught something we could use.
>
> By the same token, Canadian schools taught Parisian French.
> Many people felt we should be taught Quebec French, although
> there was some concern that we might all sink into some sort
> of filthy lower-class joual.
And English Quebecois friends who are nevertheless fluent in Quebec
French report being treated with scorn when in Paris.
I have a fellow-blacksmith friend in Pliezhausen whose wife is
Schweizdeutsh. She has to make a special effort, even after decades
in Germany, to speak Hochdeutsch.
As for my own German, I'm so hard of hearing that I have trouble with
my native English so my German excursions are limited to loud
one-liners of reading.
--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
|
|
|
|
| Re: Too much for one lifetime? :-) [message #404779 is a reply to message #404773] |
Tue, 26 January 2021 17:11 |
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On 26 Jan 2021 16:42:33 -0500
Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> wrote:
> In slightly older English (but later than Shakespeare), you still see the
> difference between ye/you and thou/thee.
Ye is still used in Ireland but not thou or thee and the
distinction between ye and you has worn thin.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
|
|
|
|
| Re: Too much for one lifetime? :-) [message #404780 is a reply to message #404764] |
Tue, 26 January 2021 17:31 |
Mike Spencer
Messages: 997
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> writes:
> None of my high school Spanish teachers were from Mexico. I had my
> first class in Texas. IIRC, my teachers were from Columbia, Nicaragua,
> and Cuba. My junior college teacher in Spanish, as far I could tell,
> didn't grow up speaking Spanish, but she was very good at it.
Circa 1957, my high school German teacher took a leave of absence due
to her husband's illness and subsequent death. The substitute was
Mrs. Gagliarducci, fluent in Italian, ignorant of even the basic
pronounciation rules of German, not a word of vocabulary, but
officially designated as a "language teacher", thus qualified to fill
the slot.
--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
|
|
|
|
| Re: Too much for one lifetime? :-) [message #404781 is a reply to message #404755] |
Tue, 26 January 2021 17:44 |
Mike Spencer
Messages: 997
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>> Then there are cases. English doesn't know of them. I think French has
>> two. German has four and Russian six. And there is where novice German
>> speakers will have it wrong in most cases. Like "The car belongs to th
>> man".
Gripe, gripe. Everybody should have a few years of Latin to get used
to the idea of orderly grammar, not the grab bag we have in English.
Teacher: What is the vocative of mensa?
Young Winston Churchill: Where, Sir, would I use the vocative of
mensa?
Teacher: Why, in addressing a table.
YWC: Sir, I do not speak to tables.
> German seems to use fewer verb tenses. English is fussier about past, past
> perfect, etc.
I'm not so sure about that, but don't forget that indirect discourse
in German uses the subjunctive or the (now, I suppose, obsolete)
matter of addressing superiors in the third person.
--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
|
|
|
|
| Re: Too much for one lifetime? :-) [message #404782 is a reply to message #404768] |
Tue, 26 January 2021 17:47 |
Mike Spencer
Messages: 997
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
> On 2021-01-26, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> German seems to use fewer verb tenses. English is fussier about past,
>> past perfect, etc.
>
> And then you see all those auxiliary verbs piled up at the end of a
> German sentence...
But then there's prepositions in English.
Man to cat under his chair: "Come on up out from down in under there."
--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
|
|
|
|
| Re: Too much for one lifetime? :-) [message #404785 is a reply to message #404780] |
Tue, 26 January 2021 19:10 |
Elliott Roper
Messages: 129
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On 26 Jan 2021 at 22:31:05 GMT, "Mike Spencer" <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere>
wrote:
> Circa 1957, my high school German teacher took a leave of absence due
> to her husband's illness and subsequent death. The substitute was
> Mrs. Gagliarducci, fluent in Italian, ignorant of even the basic
> pronounciation rules of German, not a word of vocabulary, but
> officially designated as a "language teacher", thus qualified to fill
> the slot.
Damn lucky she was not officially designated as an espresso machine!
--
To de-mung my e-mail address:- fsnospam$elliott$$
PGP Fingerprint: 1A96 3CF7 637F 896B C810 E199 7E5C A9E4 8E59 E248
|
|
|
|
| Re: Too much for one lifetime? :-) [message #404786 is a reply to message #404760] |
Tue, 26 January 2021 19:21 |
|
|
Originally posted by: J. Clarke
On Tue, 26 Jan 2021 12:06:29 -0700, Peter Flass
<peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Kerr-Mudd,John <notsaying@127.0.0.1> wrote:
>> On Tue, 26 Jan 2021 08:23:54 GMT, maus <maus@dmaus.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2021-01-26, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
>>>> In article
>>>> <202855318.633307912.602706.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-septemb
>>>> er.org>, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> >> But if you want to have a "new official language" in the EU you
>>>> >> might have to look at German.
>>>> >
>>>> > Somewhere I read that official EU documents have to be published in
>>>> > the official language of each of the member states. If no country has
>>>> > English as its official language then English is no longer required.
>>>>
>>>> I think you have made a lot of Irish people sad.
>>>>
>>> And a great many happy. Irish people only start liking Gaelic when
>>> they emigrate. Otherwise it is a PITA.
>>>>
>>>> >> I don't think anybody wants to learn German or Gaelic in Europe.
>>>>
>>>> Lots of people want to learn German if they plan to live or work in
>>>> Germany or Austria or Switzerland.
>>>>
>>> In the latter two, local variants are common.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> While most German speakers speak at
>>>> least some English, you're at a disadvantage if you have to ask
>>>> people to switch. My German is pretty bad, but I found that people in
>>>> Germany appreciated and were sometimes amused by my efforts to speak
>>>> their language.
>>>
>>> ``Why are you strangling my language?''
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On the other hand, everyone in Ireland and Scotland now speaks
>>>> English. While there are cultural and political reasons one might
>>>> learn Irish or Gaelic, you don't need it to communicate.
>>>>
>>>> I read somewhere that the EU has chronic problems finding translators
>>>> between their minor languages, e.g. between Danish and Greek. They
>>>> don't want to fall back to double translation with a a major language
>>>> in between.
>>>>
>>> Politics rears its ugly head. During the 30s, there was a movement to
>>> replace English words with German in Germany `fernseher'?. Up North,
>>> speaking Gaelic will identify one as a Republican, whereas speaking
>>> Welsh in Wales does not send any message.
>>>
>> I think that the English consider that people speaking Welsh in the
>> company of an English person is a snub!
>
> In mixed company it is. I hear French people,do, or did, will refuse answer
> a question in English, even if they speak and understand the language.
On the other hand you can wear them down. I remember the counter
person at a fast food place finally telling me "Just say it in
English".
>>
>> IRRC the last monolingual Welsh speaker died in the 1980s.
>> I see the Irish can name theirs:
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Se%C3%A1n_%C3%93_hEinir%C3%AD
>
> It’s dad to see a language fade out. Each different language is really a
> different way of thinking about things
|
|
|
|
| Re: Too much for one lifetime? :-) [message #404787 is a reply to message #404752] |
Tue, 26 January 2021 19:23 |
|
|
Originally posted by: J. Clarke
On 26 Jan 2021 18:31:07 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
wrote:
> On 2021-01-26, gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> On 26/01/2021 01:47, John Levine wrote:
>>
>>> ... They
>>> don't want to fall back to double translation with a a major language
>>> in between.
>>
>> A topic well covered by Monty Python ... My hovercraft is full of eels
>
> Then there's Pedro Carolino's delightful book _English As She Is Spoke_,
> a Portugese-English phrasebook. The author, undeterred by the fact that
> he didn't speak English, passed phrases through a Portugese-French book
> followed by a French-English book. The results are a delightful piece
> of unintentional humour.
Then there is the famous and likely apocryphal round trip from English
to Russian and back. What went in was "The spirit is willing but the
flesh is weak", what came back was "The vodka is strong but the meat
is rotten".
|
|
|
|
| Re: Too much for one lifetime? :-) [message #404788 is a reply to message #404762] |
Tue, 26 January 2021 19:26 |
|
|
Originally posted by: J. Clarke
On Tue, 26 Jan 2021 19:17:45 +0000 (UTC), jolomo@gmail.com (Joe
Morris) wrote:
> Not so long ago, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>> On 2021-01-26, JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> In US high schools we were taught Castilliano Spanish. A closer to
>>> formal Spanish, I have been told. I know that when I tried to use what
>>> I remembered when my ship pulling into Barcelona, I was told they
>>> couldn't understand me. Then someone pointed out, in English, I was
>>> speaking a version of Spanish common in one province of Spain.
>>>
>>> I have no idea why we weren't taught something we could use.
>
>> By the same token, Canadian schools taught Parisian French.
>> Many people felt we should be taught Quebec French, although
>> there was some concern that we might all sink into some sort
>> of filthy lower-class joual.
>
> When I was growing up in Texas, they taught Castillian Spanish
> instead of what the locals spoke. I took Latin instead :)
In Florida I have no idea what kind of Spanish they were teaching.
After observing the Spanish teacher attempting to correct the usage of
a person born and raised in Spain who was employed by the Spanish
government, I came to realize that the teacher had no idea either.
|
|
|
|
| Re: Too much for one lifetime? :-) [message #404789 is a reply to message #404761] |
Tue, 26 January 2021 19:34 |
|
|
Originally posted by: J. Clarke
On Tue, 26 Jan 2021 12:06:30 -0700, Peter Flass
<peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 25 Jan 2021 22:35:07 -0500, Andreas Kohlbach
>> <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 25 Jan 2021 16:02:37 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>>>> > On Fri, 22 Jan 2021 17:49:09 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Has the EU solved the ?official language? problem yet? I read somewhere
>>>> >> that Gaelic is the official language of Ireland ( maybe co-equal with
>>>> >> English?) and with BREXIT that left no EU member whose official language
>>>> >> was English, so it was no longer an official language of the EU.
>>>> >
>>>> > There is no language problem in the EU. English is and was the language
>>>> > of business and IT, and that is unlikely to change.
>>>> >
>>>> > I heard that if you want to work in an office at Nestle in Switzerland
>>>> > speaking any of the four Swiss languages (German, French, Italian and
>>>> > Romansh, sorted by numbers of speakers) won't help. You need to speak
>>>> > English.
>>>> >
>>>> > But if you want to have a "new official language" in the EU you might
>>>> > have to look at German.
>>>>
>>>> Somewhere I read that official EU documents have to be published in the
>>>> official language of each of the member states. If no country has English
>>>> as its official language then English is no longer required.
>>>
>>> The EU has still a long way ahead to become one country. So documents are
>>> handled like in the past X hundred year inside of every country. That
>>> might be different in the European parliament. Am guessing here and
>>> assume they are issued in all languages of the members of the EU. Some
>>> countries, like Germany, Austria and parts of Switzerland can be
>>> eliminated because they speak German, while France and Italy take care
>>> of the French and Italian parts of Switzerland.
>>>
>>> Then look at the United Nations HQ in New York. Suppose not everyone
>>> speaks English.
>>>
>>>> > German speakers account for the largest group
>>>> > inside Europe. But that won't happen either. Everybody seems to be happy
>>>> > with English now. And German is much harder to learn than English, if you
>>>> > are from Spain, France, Italy or any other country with its own proper
>>>> > language.
>>>>
>>>> Every country is jealous of its own language. The French would probably
>>>> never accept German, and vise-versa.
>>>
>>> Yes, I agree.
>>>
>>>> I would think English is a much harder language than German because of
>>>> its quixotic spelling and pronunciation.
>>>
>>> I guess you're wrong here.
>>>
>>> Anyone here not a native English speaker, who learned English and German,
>>> can tell what was harder to learn?
>>>
>>>> Its only advantage is its ubiquity, so everyone has some exposure to
>>>> it. German is pronounced as it?s spelled.
>>>
>>> With few exception, plus regional differences.
>>>
>>>> > I don't think anybody wants to learn German or Gaelic in Europe.
>>>>
>>>> I (sort of) learned German for a number of reasons. One of them is that
>>>> it?s the most widely-spoken language. I?d love to learn Gaelic, among
>>>> others, but I think 1-1/2 languages are about my limit.
>>>
>>> German most widely spoken? I assume that is either Chinese (well they
>>> have different flavors), Hindu (they also have) or Spanish. Almost all
>>> countries of South America (Brazil might be one of the few exceptions)
>>> have Spanish as official language.
>>>
>>> French might also have a large area outside mainland France. Many African
>>> countries for example.
>>
>> In US high schools we were taught Castilliano Spanish. A closer to
>> formal Spanish, I have been told. I know that when I tried to use what
>> I remembered when my ship pulling into Barcelona, I was told they
>> couldn't understand me. Then someone pointed out, in English, I was
>> speaking a version of Spanish common in one province of Spain.
>>
>> I have no idea why we weren't taught something we could use.
>>
>
> You probably could, if you were in Madrid. Barcelona is in Catalonia, and
> Catalan is common, and onsidered a separate language. I always thought US
> schools should teach Mexican Spanish.
I am reminded of a former coworker, a native speaker of Arabic,
telling of her travels. She says that it's interesting to talk to
Muslims in places where Arabic is not the native language--many of
them learn to communicate in Arabic but it tends to be very formal.
She used the example of a Pakistani who every time he encountered her
gave her this long flowery greeting to which she would reply with the
equivalent of "Hey, 's up".
|
|
|
|
| Re: Too much for one lifetime? :-) [message #404790 is a reply to message #404781] |
Tue, 26 January 2021 19:55 |
Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On 2021-01-26, Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
> I'm not so sure about that, but don't forget that indirect discourse
> in German uses the subjunctive or the (now, I suppose, obsolete)
> matter of addressing superiors in the third person.
Is that really the third person? I always thought of
that form (Sie vs. sie) as a special form of second person.
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | "Some of you may die,
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | but it's a sacrifice
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | I'm willing to make."
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Lord Farquaad (Shrek)
|
|
|
|
| Re: Too much for one lifetime? :-) [message #404791 is a reply to message #404775] |
Tue, 26 January 2021 19:55 |
Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On 2021-01-26, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>
>> On 2021-01-26, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> German seems to use fewer verb tenses. English is fussier about past,
>>> past perfect, etc.
>>
>> And then you see all those auxiliary verbs piled up at the end of a
>> German sentence...
>
> Not to mention the compound words.
The canonical example is a captain for the Danube Steamship Company:
Donaudampfschiffahrtsgesellschaftskapitan
I figured that a cosmic ray research rocket launching area would be:
Weltraumstrahlungforschungsraketenflugplatz
We shouldn't be too smug, though - there is an increasing tendency
in English (primarily among marketroids, especially at Virgin
Galactic) to run words together - camelCaps are optional, but
are a reliable indicator of marketing jargon.
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | "Some of you may die,
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | but it's a sacrifice
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | I'm willing to make."
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Lord Farquaad (Shrek)
|
|
|
|
| Re: Too much for one lifetime? :-) [message #404792 is a reply to message #404782] |
Tue, 26 January 2021 19:55 |
Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On 2021-01-26, Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>
>> On 2021-01-26, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> German seems to use fewer verb tenses. English is fussier about past,
>>> past perfect, etc.
>>
>> And then you see all those auxiliary verbs piled up at the end of a
>> German sentence...
>
> But then there's prepositions in English.
>
> Man to cat under his chair: "Come on up out from down in under there."
"What did you bring that book I didn't want
to be read to out of about Down Under up for?"
(Yes, that's stretching it a bit...)
It must have been someone like William Safire who once wrote
about the grammar police showing up and setting fire to a stack
of prepositions he had been saving up to end sentences with.
This is the sort of bloody nonsense up with which I will not put.
-- Winston Churchill
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | "Some of you may die,
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | but it's a sacrifice
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | I'm willing to make."
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Lord Farquaad (Shrek)
|
|
|
|
| Re: Too much for one lifetime? :-) [message #404793 is a reply to message #404776] |
Tue, 26 January 2021 19:55 |
Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On 2021-01-26, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
> Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> writes:
>
>> Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> writes:
>>
>>> On Mon, 25 Jan 2021 18:30:51 -0000 (UTC), John Levine wrote:
>>>
>>>> The spelling is delightful but the genders and cases more than make up
>>>> for it. Men and boys are masculine, women are feminine, but girls are
>>>> neuter.
>>>
>>> Yeah. Isn't that weird?
>>>
>>> And as I mentioned in another article - and I want to repeat it because
>>> it's so quirky - if there are more than one, everything becomes
>>> feminine. Even man. Singular is "Der Mann", pural "Die Männer" ("die" is
>>> the feminine article!). The "a" in Mann even becomes an "ä", while when
>>> you try this with women:
>>>
>>> Singular "Die Frau", plural "Die Frauen"
>>>
>>> the "a" stays an "a". Also "die" stays "die" in the plural form.
>>
>> Not really. The genders are distinguished only in the singular,
>> but the plural differs a bit from any of them:
>>
>> M F N P
>> Nom der die das die
>> Gen des der des der
>> Dat dem der dem den
>> Acc den die das die
>>
>> So the plural differs from the feminine in the dative case.
I always thought of the plural "die" as a distinct word
which just happened to look like the singular feminine.
>> Then there are the forms of the adjective when preceded by the
>> definite article vs. the indefinite article _ein_ (and similar
>> forms like _kein_ "none, no") vs. without any article. To make
>> this clear, I'll use the adjective _klein_ "little".
>>
>> Def M F N P
>> Nom klein-e klein-e klein-e klein-en
>> Gen klein-en klein-en klein-en klein-en
>> Dat klein-en klein-en klein-en klein-en
>> Acc klein-en klein-e klein-e klein-en
>>
>> Indef M F N P
>> Nom klein-er klein-e klein-es klein-e
>> Gen klein-en klein-en klein-en klein-er
>> Dat klein-en klein-en klein-en klein-en
>> Acc klein-en klein-e klein-es klein-e
>>
>> Bare M F N P
>> Nom klein-er klein-e klein-es klein-e
>> Gen klein-en klein-er klein-es klein-er
>> Dat klein-em klein-er klein-em klein-en
>> Acc klein-en klein-e klein-es klein-e
AAAARRRRGGGHHHHH! The old nightmares return!
> And to top it off, 'ein' gets affected as well,
>
> eine kleine nachtmusik.
While we're at it, let's not forget the declension of nouns.
The poster child is "Herz" (heart), which has an irregular declension:
Singular Plural
Nom das Herz die Herzen
Gen des Herzens der Herzen
Dat dem Herzen den Herzen
Acc das Herz die Herzen
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | "Some of you may die,
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | but it's a sacrifice
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | I'm willing to make."
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Lord Farquaad (Shrek)
|
|
|
|
| Re: Too much for one lifetime? :-) [message #404794 is a reply to message #404773] |
Tue, 26 January 2021 19:55 |
Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On 2021-01-26, Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> wrote:
> Dialectally, the final -n was *generalized*, so that forms like
> _hisn_, _hern_, and _yourn_ occur in speech. (Part of my childhood
> in Texas was spent with people who said things like "This one is mine,
> and that one is yourn.")
He who sells what isn't hisn
Must buy it back or go to prison.
I was informed by a Texan that "y'all" is singular.
The plural is "all y'all".
I once made a support call to Dallas. The lady at the
other end said, "We're getting a funny error message,
and we wondered if it was from y'all's system."
I'd never heard it used in the possessive before.
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | "Some of you may die,
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | but it's a sacrifice
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | I'm willing to make."
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Lord Farquaad (Shrek)
|
|
|
|
| Re: Too much for one lifetime? :-) [message #404796 is a reply to message #404751] |
Tue, 26 January 2021 21:56 |
Andreas Kohlbach
Messages: 1456
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On Tue, 26 Jan 2021 12:03:57 -0600, JimP wrote:
>
> In US high schools we were taught Castilliano Spanish. A closer to
> formal Spanish, I have been told. I know that when I tried to use what
> I remembered when my ship pulling into Barcelona, I was told they
> couldn't understand me. Then someone pointed out, in English, I was
> speaking a version of Spanish common in one province of Spain.
>
> I have no idea why we weren't taught something we could use.
Same for English lessons if you intend to visit/move/work in the US. I
was taught British English. If you are in the UK before you move to the
US all should be fine. Saying things like "Can i bum a fag mate?" are no
problem. Try that in Louisiana.
--
Andreas
https://news-commentaries.blogspot.com/
|
|
|
|
| Re: Too much for one lifetime? :-) [message #404799 is a reply to message #404761] |
Tue, 26 January 2021 23:21 |
John Levine
Messages: 1405
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
In article <2084667421.633380598.940468.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org>,
Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> In US high schools we were taught Castilliano Spanish. A closer to
>> formal Spanish, I have been told. I know that when I tried to use what
>> I remembered when my ship pulling into Barcelona, I was told they
>> couldn't understand me. Then someone pointed out, in English, I was
>> speaking a version of Spanish common in one province of Spain.
In Catalonia, claiming not to understand Castillian Spanish is a
political statement. In my experience, they understand Spanish just
fine when they want to.
> You probably could, if you were in Madrid. Barcelona is in Catalonia, and
> Catalan is common, and onsidered a separate language. I always thought US
> schools should teach Mexican Spanish.
Well, or Puerto Rican depending where in the US you are.
Here in NY they teach Parisian French even though we can drive to
Montreal where they speak a rather different flavor of the language.
R's,
John
--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
|
|
|
|
| Re: Too much for one lifetime? :-) [message #404801 is a reply to message #404790] |
Wed, 27 January 2021 00:33 |
Mike Spencer
Messages: 997
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
> On 2021-01-26, Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>
>> ...but don't forget that indirect discourse in German uses the
>> subjunctive or the (now, I suppose, obsolete) matter of addressing
>> superiors in the third person.
>
> Is that really the third person? I always thought of
> that form (Sie vs. sie) as a special form of second person.
Not {sS}ie. "Habet er die Gute...." 3rd person subjunctive,
lit. "Would he have the kindness [to]....", addressed to nobility,
meaning "Would you have the kindness [to]...." AFAIK, obsolete usage
since German titles and nobility ceased to have social
significance.
I'm not an authority on German usage, just milk-sieve memory: milk and
cream pass through, straws, bits of cow manure and dead flies
retained. :-)
--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Too much for one lifetime? :-) [message #404806 is a reply to message #404161] |
Wed, 27 January 2021 02:03 |
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On Tue, 26 Jan 2021 22:03:48 -0500
Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
> May be there is no term extending "bilingual" and "trilingual" to the
> forth or even more languages spoken by one person?
The word would be quadrilingual (just as quadrilateral follows
triangle), then pentalingual, hexalingual ...
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
|
|
|
|
| Re: Too much for one lifetime? :-) [message #404808 is a reply to message #404779] |
Wed, 27 January 2021 03:36 |
|
|
Originally posted by: maus
On 2021-01-26, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> On 26 Jan 2021 16:42:33 -0500
> Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> wrote:
>
>> In slightly older English (but later than Shakespeare), you still see the
>> difference between ye/you and thou/thee.
>
> Ye is still used in Ireland but not thou or thee and the
> distinction between ye and you has worn thin.
>
>
The character `thorn' pronounced 'th' has ony been dropped from English
relatively a short time ago. People not aware of that think that there
was an english word called `Ye' as in `Ye Inn'.. Old West of Ireland gypsies
(travellers) used a dialect close to what Shakespear used.
Many Quakers moved to Ireland and used `thee' and 'thou' which Irish
people thought amusing. Perfectly legitimate English words, AFAIK.
As nonconformists, they worked in the milling industry
--
greymausg@mail.com
|
|
|
|
| Re: Too much for one lifetime? :-) [message #404810 is a reply to message #404806] |
Wed, 27 January 2021 04:50 |
|
|
Originally posted by: gareth evans
On 27/01/2021 07:03, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Jan 2021 22:03:48 -0500
> Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>
>> May be there is no term extending "bilingual" and "trilingual" to the
>> forth or even more languages spoken by one person?
>
> The word would be quadrilingual (just as quadrilateral follows
> triangle), then pentalingual, hexalingual ...
>
Interesting that in a computer folklore forum that someone should
propose speaking the forth! :-)
|
|
|
|
| Re: Too much for one lifetime? :-) [message #404811 is a reply to message #404796] |
Wed, 27 January 2021 06:32 |
Niklas Karlsson
Messages: 265
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On 2021-01-27, Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>
> Same for English lessons if you intend to visit/move/work in the US. I
> was taught British English. If you are in the UK before you move to the
> US all should be fine. Saying things like "Can i bum a fag mate?" are no
> problem. Try that in Louisiana.
British English is what's taught in school here (or at least it was when
I was in school), yet most Swedes speak something closer to American
English. Hollywood is probably a major factor here.
I sometimes had Englishmen have problems understanding me because I used
what turned out to be Americanisms.
Niklas
--
I hereby wish to register the band name "rm -rf /".
-- Jim
|
|
|
|
| Re: Too much for one lifetime? :-) [message #404812 is a reply to message #404788] |
Wed, 27 January 2021 06:35 |
Niklas Karlsson
Messages: 265
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On 2021-01-27, J Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> In Florida I have no idea what kind of Spanish they were teaching.
> After observing the Spanish teacher attempting to correct the usage of
> a person born and raised in Spain who was employed by the Spanish
> government, I came to realize that the teacher had no idea either.
I think that may be a common pattern. I recall my English teacher being
unfamiliar with the word "flavo(u)r" when I used it. Not exactly what
I'd consider an obscure term.
Niklas
--
One developer I worked with pronounced SQL as "squirrel" and PL/SQL as
"peeled squirrel". This was the guy with several squirrel skulls on the
top of his monitor. I inherited those when he was fired for punching
someone fairly senior in management. -- John Burnham
|
|
|
|
Members
Search
Help
Register
Login
Home
