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Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #403876 is a reply to message #403868] Thu, 07 January 2021 02:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
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Registered: January 2012
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On Thu, 07 Jan 2021 01:41:00 GMT
usenet@only.tnx (Questor) wrote:

> On 5 Jan 2021 20:12:38 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2021-01-05, Questor <usenet@only.tnx> wrote:
>>> Three people have died because they relied on Telsa Autopilot
>>> to do the driving. Of course, they're not supposed to do that,
>>> but it's a strong indication that self-driving technology is
>>> not ready for the public.
>>
>> Or that the public isn't ready for self-driving technology.
>
> That's a nonsensical statement. One of the promises of true self-driving
> vehicles -- which the Tesla is no where near -- is that the young, the

The current Tesla Autopilot is a driver assist mechanism and
advertised as such.

> disabled, and the infirm -- will be able to rely on them for
> transportation without having to drive at all. There's nothing to "being
> ready" for it -- the technology either works or it doesn't.

That is what is designated as level 5 autonomy and *nobody* is
claiming to have that yet. The public (or at least some of it) are stupid
enough to treat the current driver assist as though it was more than it is.

> What Tesla has is mis-named driver assist features.

Why misnamed ? *Nobody* claims it to be anything else. Elon Musk has
claimed that Tesla are near to releasing level 5 self driving but they have
not done so yet.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #403877 is a reply to message #403802] Thu, 07 January 2021 02:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
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On Tue, 05 Jan 2021 17:13:41 -0500
J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:

> Uh, "will be" implies that they don't exist now, which is not the
> case.

It is the case, there are no autonomous vehicles on the roads today
only sophisticated driver assist systems that are nearly good enough to
treat as autonomous.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #403879 is a reply to message #403870] Thu, 07 January 2021 02:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
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On Thu, 07 Jan 2021 01:41:31 GMT
usenet@only.tnx (Questor) wrote:

> On Tue, 5 Jan 2021 21:21:33 +0000, Vir Campestris

>> You're saying that it'll be OK for humans to drive cars even though it
>> can be statistically shown that they kill more humans than self-driving
>> cars.
>
> We permit people to engage in many activities that are dangerous.

We discourage (often to the point of imprisonment) people from
engaging in activities that are dangerous to others. Driving is far more
dangerous to others (especially pedestrians and cyclists) than it is to the
driver.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #403880 is a reply to message #403861] Thu, 07 January 2021 04:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Thomas Koenig

Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> schrieb:

> That reminds me of Jerry Pournelle's _The Mote in God's Eye_,
> which described a tight-beam radio link, scaled down for
> suit-to-suit communications.

That one had a (sort of on-topic here) blooper - the ships had
to power off their drives in order to send a radio signal across
distances of a few AU.

If you do a rough calculation of the power you need to propel
a multi-thousand-ton spacecraft with a photon drive, you'll be
astonished :-)
Re: how not do self-drive, car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #403883 is a reply to message #403877] Thu, 07 January 2021 07:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
John Levine is currently offline  John Levine
Messages: 1405
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In article <20210107072855.f388412f6797973018a76d21@eircom.net>,
Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>> Uh, "will be" implies that they don't exist now, which is not the
>> case.
>
> It is the case, there are no autonomous vehicles on the roads today
> only sophisticated driver assist systems that are nearly good enough to
> treat as autonomous.

That turns out to be fairly pessimal. The car drives itself 95% of the
time, while the driver watches a movie or falls asleep. Then the car
runs into a situtation it can't handle itself, the driver isn't paying
attention, and uh oh.

This was what happened when the Uber car killed someone in Arizona.
The very bored driver was apparently playing games on her phone.

Commercial airplanes have the same problem with autopilots that can
handle all but a few situtations. I gather there are proposals to run
flight simulators in the cockpit to keep the crew's skills up.

--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
Re: how not do self-drive, car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #403884 is a reply to message #403883] Thu, 07 January 2021 07:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
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On Thu, 7 Jan 2021 12:24:17 -0000 (UTC)
John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:

> In article <20210107072855.f388412f6797973018a76d21@eircom.net>,
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>> Uh, "will be" implies that they don't exist now, which is not the
>>> case.
>>
>> It is the case, there are no autonomous vehicles on the roads
>> today
>> only sophisticated driver assist systems that are nearly good enough to
>> treat as autonomous.
>
> That turns out to be fairly pessimal. The car drives itself 95% of the
> time, while the driver watches a movie or falls asleep.

Hence the requirement for systems that detect this and do something
about it - which seems not to be as well thought out or reliable as we
might hope.

> Then the car
> runs into a situtation it can't handle itself, the driver isn't paying
> attention, and uh oh.

Yep and that last 5% is the hard 5% which won't get there without
the 95% getting a lot of road testing. Still if Musk isn't shading the
truth (granted that's a significant if) even with that effect the overall
result is an improvement in safety.

> This was what happened when the Uber car killed someone in Arizona.
> The very bored driver was apparently playing games on her phone.

This is indeed a big problem - two solutions give up on autonomous
vehicles or work hard to handle that last 5% while trying hard to stop
people being idiots.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #403887 is a reply to message #403867] Thu, 07 January 2021 11:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
scott is currently offline  scott
Messages: 4237
Registered: February 2012
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Senior Member
Leo <leoblaisdell@sbcglobal.net> writes:
> On 2021 Jan 2, , J. Clarke wrote
> (in article<s4v1vfpcmdg0ro112q17mq1j0vpfla936k@4ax.com>):
>
>> If you want to have some fun of that nature some time, have the GPS
>> take you somewhere a good distance off avoiding highways. My favorite
>> there is the time that it took me down a nice residential street, that
>> turned into a road of increasing degrees of roughness, and on to
>> broken pavement, and dirt, and finally a cowpath that led to a fence
>> with a hole cut in it. I was on a dual-sport, I could have gone
>> through the fence, but the bull in the pasture and the rather glum
>> looking farmer with a shotgun were significant deterrents.
>
> The road got narrower and narrower =B4till it run up a tree.
>

That reminds me of a trip through Joshua Tree in the mid-80's
(when it was still a national monument and not a national park);
it abuts to BLM land and we were exploring the roadless BLM land with
a jeep. The canyon we were following got narrower and narrower
until we reached a spot where it wasn't wide enough to turn
around, and we lost our clutch. We worked out a way to
start the jeep in gear enough to back it up until we got
to a wide spot to 8-point turn and limp back to camp and find
some fluid to refill the reservoir. That night Kirk Gibson
hit his 9th inning home run to win game one of the World Series.

Beautiful place, Joshua Tree.
Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #403888 is a reply to message #403548] Thu, 07 January 2021 11:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Niklas Karlsson is currently offline  Niklas Karlsson
Messages: 265
Registered: January 2012
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Senior Member
On 2021-01-02, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 2 Jan 2021 16:29:54 +0000 (UTC)
> danny burstein <dannyb@panix.com> wrote:
>
>> In <20210102155501.8d68f103fec1793d8440bf2f@eircom.net> Ahem A Rivet's
>> Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
>>
>>> On Sat, 2 Jan 2021 17:17:37 +0200
>>> Bud Spencer <bud@campo.verano.it> wrote:
>>
>>>> Rotating turbines are not generating anything, right?
>>
>>> Correct! Turbines[1] are devices for converting fluid flow into
>>> rotational motion and are often used to transfer kinetic energy from
>>> flowing water or steam to the shaft of an alternator which then transfers
>>> that kinetic energy into electrical energy.
>>
>>> [1] Jet turbines are a variant in which the fluid flow is created within
>>> the mechanism by the release of chemical energy.
>>
>> well, there's always the nuclear -> steam -> turbine deal,
>>
>> Just five years away!
>
> Huh ? That's what nuclear power stations have always used -
> sometimes with liquid sodium as a heat exchange between reactor and steam
> which I always thought to be a hair raising concept.

Or even a liquid lead-bismuth alloy, in the case of the Soviet
Alfa-class submarine. I don't believe there were any accidents with
those reactors that injured/killed humans, but it was still a pain
because you absolutely had to keep the alloy liquid at all times; if it
solidified, you'd be screwed and need a tow.

The idea was to keep them heated with steam while in port, but Soviet
logistics being what they were, that didn't work so well, so they ran
the reactors even in port.

The reactor was very powerful for being so small, though, making the
Alfa the second fastest submarine ever at about 41-42 knots sustained
and a few more in bursts. (The fastest was also Soviet, a class of one
called the Papa by NATO.)

Of course, they were anything but stealthy, especially if they floored
it.

Niklas
--
We've got a SCO box which we've had no complaints over. No maintenance
hassles either.
We might get around to switching it on one day.
-- Peter Gutmann
Re: how not do self-drive, car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #403889 is a reply to message #403883] Thu, 07 January 2021 11:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Thu, 7 Jan 2021 12:24:17 -0000 (UTC), John Levine <johnl@taugh.com>
wrote:

> In article <20210107072855.f388412f6797973018a76d21@eircom.net>,
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>> Uh, "will be" implies that they don't exist now, which is not the
>>> case.
>>
>> It is the case, there are no autonomous vehicles on the roads today
>> only sophisticated driver assist systems that are nearly good enough to
>> treat as autonomous.
>
> That turns out to be fairly pessimal. The car drives itself 95% of the
> time, while the driver watches a movie or falls asleep. Then the car
> runs into a situtation it can't handle itself, the driver isn't paying
> attention, and uh oh.
>
> This was what happened when the Uber car killed someone in Arizona.
> The very bored driver was apparently playing games on her phone.
>
> Commercial airplanes have the same problem with autopilots that can
> handle all but a few situtations. I gather there are proposals to run
> flight simulators in the cockpit to keep the crew's skills up.

Skills isn't the issue, being "behind the airplan" is the issue--when
something goes wrong people have been struggling to stay awake with
nothing to do but watch the robot fly suddenly have to catch up with
what the robot is doing.
Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #403891 is a reply to message #403847] Thu, 07 January 2021 12:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Niklas Karlsson is currently offline  Niklas Karlsson
Messages: 265
Registered: January 2012
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Senior Member
On 2021-01-06, J Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 6 Jan 2021 06:37:18 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> wrote:
>>>
>>> Not to mention Chernobyl, even more recent and certainly spectacular. Of
>>> course, it was both constructed and operated by idiots.
>>
>> I’m a bit more sympathetic after reading the novel _Chernobyl_. Bad design,
>> and idiots in management, but many of the rank-and-file did heroic work to
>> try to stop the mess.
>
> If you haven't seen the miniseries, you might want to. It was very
> well done.

Seconded. It's been praised for its attention to detail; Russians who
lived in the USSR at the time have come forward and noted that they got
the environments and details right. That's exactly what things looked
like in the mid-80s USSR.

Niklas
--
Now all we need to do is grease up the pole, and then it's time to load up the
rocket motor.
-- Tory Belleci
Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #403892 is a reply to message #403868] Thu, 07 January 2021 14:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
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Questor <usenet@only.tnx> wrote:
> On 5 Jan 2021 20:12:38 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2021-01-05, Questor <usenet@only.tnx> wrote:
>>> Three people have died because they relied on Telsa Autopilot
>>> to do the driving. Of course, they're not supposed to do that,
>>> but it's a strong indication that self-driving technology is
>>> not ready for the public.
>>
>> Or that the public isn't ready for self-driving technology.
>
> That's a nonsensical statement. One of the promises of true self-driving
> vehicles -- which the Tesla is no where near -- is that the young, the disabled,
> and the infirm -- will be able to rely on them for transportation without having
> to drive at all. There's nothing to "being ready" for it -- the technology
> either works or it doesn't. What Tesla has is mis-named driver assist features.
>

I hadn’t thought of the disabled until I heard it mentioned a few months
ago. What a blessing it will be for them.

--
Pete
Re: how not do self-drive, car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #403894 is a reply to message #403889] Thu, 07 January 2021 14:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
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Senior Member
On 2021-01-07, J Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 7 Jan 2021 12:24:17 -0000 (UTC), John Levine <johnl@taugh.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Commercial airplanes have the same problem with autopilots that can
>> handle all but a few situtations. I gather there are proposals to run
>> flight simulators in the cockpit to keep the crew's skills up.
>
> Skills isn't the issue, being "behind the airplan" is the issue--when
> something goes wrong people have been struggling to stay awake with
> nothing to do but watch the robot fly suddenly have to catch up with
> what the robot is doing.

Yes, being "behind the airplane" is a big problem - but deterioration of
basic flying skills and airmanship has been identified as a rising cause
for concern in today's highly-automated aircraft.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | "Some of you may die,
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | but it's a sacrifice
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | I'm willing to make."
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Lord Farquaad (Shrek)
Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #403895 is a reply to message #403880] Thu, 07 January 2021 14:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
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On 2021-01-07, Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:

> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> schrieb:
>
>> That reminds me of Jerry Pournelle's _The Mote in God's Eye_,
>> which described a tight-beam radio link, scaled down for
>> suit-to-suit communications.
>
> That one had a (sort of on-topic here) blooper - the ships had
> to power off their drives in order to send a radio signal across
> distances of a few AU.

Sounds like the alternator in my plane - even after a rebuild
it's putting out enough noise that the ADF can't pick up a
beacon until I'm only a few miles away. I have to briefly
take the alternator offline to allow the ADF to get a reading.
(Fortunately I mostly use GPS and VOR.)

> If you do a rough calculation of the power you need to propel
> a multi-thousand-ton spacecraft with a photon drive, you'll be
> astonished :-)

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | "Some of you may die,
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | but it's a sacrifice
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | I'm willing to make."
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Lord Farquaad (Shrek)
Re: how not do self-drive, car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #403896 is a reply to message #403884] Thu, 07 January 2021 14:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
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Senior Member
On 2021-01-07, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

> On Thu, 7 Jan 2021 12:24:17 -0000 (UTC)
> John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
>
>> In article <20210107072855.f388412f6797973018a76d21@eircom.net>,
>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>
>>>> Uh, "will be" implies that they don't exist now, which is not the
>>>> case.
>>>
>>> It is the case, there are no autonomous vehicles on the roads
>>> today
>>> only sophisticated driver assist systems that are nearly good enough to
>>> treat as autonomous.
>>
>> That turns out to be fairly pessimal. The car drives itself 95% of the
>> time, while the driver watches a movie or falls asleep.
>
> Hence the requirement for systems that detect this and do something
> about it - which seems not to be as well thought out or reliable as we
> might hope.
>
>> Then the car
>> runs into a situtation it can't handle itself, the driver isn't paying
>> attention, and uh oh.
>
> Yep and that last 5% is the hard 5% which won't get there without
> the 95% getting a lot of road testing. Still if Musk isn't shading the
> truth (granted that's a significant if) even with that effect the overall
> result is an improvement in safety.
>
>> This was what happened when the Uber car killed someone in Arizona.
>> The very bored driver was apparently playing games on her phone.
>
> This is indeed a big problem - two solutions give up on autonomous
> vehicles or work hard to handle that last 5% while trying hard to stop
> people being idiots.

Programming today is a race between software engineers
striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs,
and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots.
So far, the Universe is winning.
-- Rich Cook

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | "Some of you may die,
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | but it's a sacrifice
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | I'm willing to make."
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Lord Farquaad (Shrek)
Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #403897 is a reply to message #403887] Thu, 07 January 2021 16:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Kerr-Mudd,John

On Thu, 07 Jan 2021 16:32:05 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

> Leo <leoblaisdell@sbcglobal.net> writes:
>> On 2021 Jan 2, , J. Clarke wrote
>> (in article<s4v1vfpcmdg0ro112q17mq1j0vpfla936k@4ax.com>):
>>
>>> If you want to have some fun of that nature some time, have the GPS
>>> take you somewhere a good distance off avoiding highways. My favorite
>>> there is the time that it took me down a nice residential street,
that
>>> turned into a road of increasing degrees of roughness, and on to
>>> broken pavement, and dirt, and finally a cowpath that led to a fence
>>> with a hole cut in it. I was on a dual-sport, I could have gone
>>> through the fence, but the bull in the pasture and the rather glum
>>> looking farmer with a shotgun were significant deterrents.
>>
>> The road got narrower and narrower =B4till it run up a tree.
>>
>
> That reminds me of a trip through Joshua Tree in the mid-80's
> (when it was still a national monument and not a national park);
> it abuts to BLM land and we were exploring the roadless BLM land with

Black Lives Matter? - ah Bureau of Land Management

> a jeep. The canyon we were following got narrower and narrower
> until we reached a spot where it wasn't wide enough to turn
> around, and we lost our clutch. We worked out a way to
> start the jeep in gear enough to back it up until we got
> to a wide spot to 8-point turn and limp back to camp and find
> some fluid to refill the reservoir. That night Kirk Gibson
> hit his 9th inning home run to win game one of the World Series.
>
> Beautiful place, Joshua Tree.
>



--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #403899 is a reply to message #403821] Thu, 07 January 2021 16:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jorgen Grahn is currently offline  Jorgen Grahn
Messages: 606
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Wed, 2021-01-06, Mike Spencer wrote:
>
> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> My luck the commissar of garbage will be out that day. We have one of
>> those. Also a dandelion inspector.
>
> You have to be kidding. A weed inspector in an agricultural region I
> can understand. And it's not neccessary to drench the county with
> herbicide to restrain weed plagues. But a dandelion inspector?

I am a dandelion inspector, kind of. A lot of the species around here
are restricted to very narrow habitats, and many are very rare, so as
a botanist I try to pay attention. One species, Taxaxacum polium, was
declared extinct recently; it was endemic to Gotland.

/Jorgen

--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #403900 is a reply to message #403790] Thu, 07 January 2021 16:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Kerr-Mudd,John

On Tue, 05 Jan 2021 20:12:40 GMT, Charlie Gibbs
<cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

> On 2021-01-05, maus <maus@dmaus.org> wrote:
>
>> On 2021-01-04, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2021-01-04, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>>>
>>>> reductio ad absurdum:
>>>> https://dothemath.ucsd.edu/2011/07/galactic-scale-energy/
>>>>
>>>> The alternatives:
>>>> https://dothemath.ucsd.edu/2012/02/the-alternative-energy-ma trix
>>>> /
>>>>
>>>> Where can we go from here:
>>>> https://dothemath.ucsd.edu/2011/09/discovering-limits-to-gro wth/
>>>
>>> Thanks, those are a nice supplement to my favourite
>>> back-of-the-envelope calculations, which show that if our population
>>> continues to double every 40 years (as it has done until recently),
>>> there will be one person for every square meter of dry land in 600
>>> years - and that the entire mass of the planet will be converted
>>> into a swarming mass of humanity in 1800 years.
>>
>> AFAIK, without being racist, the population of most Western-stype
>> countries is falling, Germany being a good example. Immigration from
>> the third world is offsetting that, but as the women of those
>> immigrating people realize that there is more to life than popping
>> out babies, thT will change.
>
> Our government's obsession with immigration extends primarily
> to skilled immigrants. That way they don't have to waste money
> maintaining an effective education system.
>
> UFOlogists and immigration enthusiasts have a lot in common.
> The UFO people believe we will be saved by aliens from another planet.
> Immigration advocates belive we will be saved by aliens from another
> country.
>
In the UK we seem to think that stopping immigration will save us. (see
The Daily Wail, if you can bear it)


--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #403902 is a reply to message #403869] Thu, 07 January 2021 17:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Vir Campestris

On 07/01/2021 01:41, Questor wrote:
> On Tue, 5 Jan 2021 19:46:39 +0000, Ahem A Rivet's Shot<steveo@eircom.net>
> wrote:
>> On Tue, 05 Jan 2021 18:14:20 GMT
>> usenet@only.tnx (Questor) wrote:
>>> That's a very weak justification. You're saying that it's okay for
>>> self-driving cars to kill and maim people in accidents, as long as it can
>>> be statistically shown that they do so less frequently than humans.
>> Yes because at that point they save lives.
>>
>>> Would you care to explain that argument to someone who just lost a loved
>>> one in an accident with a self-driving vehicle?
>> It's a very strong justification, car drivers kill and maim a lot
>> of people every year. Once self driving vehicles kill and maim substantially
>> fewer people per mile driven there is little justification for permitting
>> people to drive.
> That's a very radical position that doesn't comport with our responses to other
> more deadly threats to life.
>
> In the U.S., many tens of thousands of people die every year -- more than twice
> the number of traffic fatalities -- due to consumption of cigarettes. Similarly
> for alcohol. Yet neither of them are illegal. You can work out the many
> contradictions for yourself.

</snip>

AIUI The USA did try banning alcohol. ISTR it didn't end well :)

Of course self driving cars will reduce the alcohol induced death rate.
You need not be tempted to drive home after a few drinks.

Andy
Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #403903 is a reply to message #403902] Thu, 07 January 2021 17:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Thu, 7 Jan 2021 22:14:48 +0000, Vir Campestris
<vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 07/01/2021 01:41, Questor wrote:
>> On Tue, 5 Jan 2021 19:46:39 +0000, Ahem A Rivet's Shot<steveo@eircom.net>
>> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 05 Jan 2021 18:14:20 GMT
>>> usenet@only.tnx (Questor) wrote:
>>>> That's a very weak justification. You're saying that it's okay for
>>>> self-driving cars to kill and maim people in accidents, as long as it can
>>>> be statistically shown that they do so less frequently than humans.
>>> Yes because at that point they save lives.
>>>
>>>> Would you care to explain that argument to someone who just lost a loved
>>>> one in an accident with a self-driving vehicle?
>>> It's a very strong justification, car drivers kill and maim a lot
>>> of people every year. Once self driving vehicles kill and maim substantially
>>> fewer people per mile driven there is little justification for permitting
>>> people to drive.
>> That's a very radical position that doesn't comport with our responses to other
>> more deadly threats to life.
>>
>> In the U.S., many tens of thousands of people die every year -- more than twice
>> the number of traffic fatalities -- due to consumption of cigarettes. Similarly
>> for alcohol. Yet neither of them are illegal. You can work out the many
>> contradictions for yourself.
>
> </snip>
>
> AIUI The USA did try banning alcohol. ISTR it didn't end well :)

Unfortunately the government is run by idiots who are incapable of
learning. Prohibition lasted 13 years. The War On Drugs, which is
even less successful, has been going on now for more than half a
century.

> Of course self driving cars will reduce the alcohol induced death rate.
> You need not be tempted to drive home after a few drinks.
>
> Andy
Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #403904 is a reply to message #403899] Thu, 07 January 2021 17:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On 7 Jan 2021 21:32:18 GMT, Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se>
wrote:

> On Wed, 2021-01-06, Mike Spencer wrote:
>>
>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> My luck the commissar of garbage will be out that day. We have one of
>>> those. Also a dandelion inspector.
>>
>> You have to be kidding. A weed inspector in an agricultural region I
>> can understand. And it's not neccessary to drench the county with
>> herbicide to restrain weed plagues. But a dandelion inspector?
>
> I am a dandelion inspector, kind of. A lot of the species around here
> are restricted to very narrow habitats, and many are very rare, so as
> a botanist I try to pay attention. One species, Taxaxacum polium, was
> declared extinct recently; it was endemic to Gotland.

But do you fine people $75 a day for every day that there is a
dandelion taller than 12 inches?
>
> /Jorgen
Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #403905 is a reply to message #403904] Thu, 07 January 2021 17:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dan Espen is currently offline  Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
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Senior Member
J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:

> On 7 Jan 2021 21:32:18 GMT, Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se>
> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 2021-01-06, Mike Spencer wrote:
>>>
>>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> My luck the commissar of garbage will be out that day. We have one of
>>>> those. Also a dandelion inspector.
>>>
>>> You have to be kidding. A weed inspector in an agricultural region I
>>> can understand. And it's not neccessary to drench the county with
>>> herbicide to restrain weed plagues. But a dandelion inspector?
>>
>> I am a dandelion inspector, kind of. A lot of the species around here
>> are restricted to very narrow habitats, and many are very rare, so as
>> a botanist I try to pay attention. One species, Taxaxacum polium, was
>> declared extinct recently; it was endemic to Gotland.
>
> But do you fine people $75 a day for every day that there is a
> dandelion taller than 12 inches?

Okay, you've got me.
Is this an HOA? Are you next to a golf course? Explain.

--
Dan Espen
Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #403908 is a reply to message #403905] Thu, 07 January 2021 22:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Thu, 07 Jan 2021 17:59:55 -0500, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
wrote:

> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On 7 Jan 2021 21:32:18 GMT, Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 2021-01-06, Mike Spencer wrote:
>>>>
>>>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>> > My luck the commissar of garbage will be out that day. We have one of
>>>> > those. Also a dandelion inspector.
>>>>
>>>> You have to be kidding. A weed inspector in an agricultural region I
>>>> can understand. And it's not neccessary to drench the county with
>>>> herbicide to restrain weed plagues. But a dandelion inspector?
>>>
>>> I am a dandelion inspector, kind of. A lot of the species around here
>>> are restricted to very narrow habitats, and many are very rare, so as
>>> a botanist I try to pay attention. One species, Taxaxacum polium, was
>>> declared extinct recently; it was endemic to Gotland.
>>
>> But do you fine people $75 a day for every day that there is a
>> dandelion taller than 12 inches?
>
> Okay, you've got me.
> Is this an HOA? Are you next to a golf course? Explain.

Town government that is run like an HOA. They see "blight", defined
as "weeds (meaning one dandelion) taller than 12 inches" as a revenue
opportunity. They have a bunch of other ridiculous stuff in the same
vein.
Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #403911 is a reply to message #403908] Thu, 07 January 2021 22:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dan Espen is currently offline  Dan Espen
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Senior Member
J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:

> On Thu, 07 Jan 2021 17:59:55 -0500, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 7 Jan 2021 21:32:18 GMT, Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 2021-01-06, Mike Spencer wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> >
>>>> >> My luck the commissar of garbage will be out that day. We have one of
>>>> >> those. Also a dandelion inspector.
>>>> >
>>>> > You have to be kidding. A weed inspector in an agricultural region I
>>>> > can understand. And it's not neccessary to drench the county with
>>>> > herbicide to restrain weed plagues. But a dandelion inspector?
>>>>
>>>> I am a dandelion inspector, kind of. A lot of the species around here
>>>> are restricted to very narrow habitats, and many are very rare, so as
>>>> a botanist I try to pay attention. One species, Taxaxacum polium, was
>>>> declared extinct recently; it was endemic to Gotland.
>>>
>>> But do you fine people $75 a day for every day that there is a
>>> dandelion taller than 12 inches?
>>
>> Okay, you've got me.
>> Is this an HOA? Are you next to a golf course? Explain.
>
> Town government that is run like an HOA. They see "blight", defined
> as "weeds (meaning one dandelion) taller than 12 inches" as a revenue
> opportunity. They have a bunch of other ridiculous stuff in the same
> vein.

A whole town? Holy crap!

12 inches is pretty tall for a dandelion, at least the ones around here.
But they shoot up fast, like overnight.

If I knew where this place was, I'd be tempted to drive past town hall with
a bunch of dandelion seeds to float out the car window.

--
Dan Espen
Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #403912 is a reply to message #403911] Thu, 07 January 2021 23:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Thu, 07 Jan 2021 22:37:04 -0500, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
wrote:

> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Thu, 07 Jan 2021 17:59:55 -0500, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 7 Jan 2021 21:32:18 GMT, Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >On Wed, 2021-01-06, Mike Spencer wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> My luck the commissar of garbage will be out that day. We have one of
>>>> >>> those. Also a dandelion inspector.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> You have to be kidding. A weed inspector in an agricultural region I
>>>> >> can understand. And it's not neccessary to drench the county with
>>>> >> herbicide to restrain weed plagues. But a dandelion inspector?
>>>> >
>>>> >I am a dandelion inspector, kind of. A lot of the species around here
>>>> >are restricted to very narrow habitats, and many are very rare, so as
>>>> >a botanist I try to pay attention. One species, Taxaxacum polium, was
>>>> >declared extinct recently; it was endemic to Gotland.
>>>>
>>>> But do you fine people $75 a day for every day that there is a
>>>> dandelion taller than 12 inches?
>>>
>>> Okay, you've got me.
>>> Is this an HOA? Are you next to a golf course? Explain.
>>
>> Town government that is run like an HOA. They see "blight", defined
>> as "weeds (meaning one dandelion) taller than 12 inches" as a revenue
>> opportunity. They have a bunch of other ridiculous stuff in the same
>> vein.
>
> A whole town? Holy crap!
>
> 12 inches is pretty tall for a dandelion, at least the ones around here.
> But they shoot up fast, like overnight.
>
> If I knew where this place was, I'd be tempted to drive past town hall with
> a bunch of dandelion seeds to float out the car window.

Oh, town property doesn't seem to count.
Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #403925 is a reply to message #403911] Fri, 08 January 2021 15:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jorgen Grahn is currently offline  Jorgen Grahn
Messages: 606
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Fri, 2021-01-08, Dan Espen wrote:
> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Thu, 07 Jan 2021 17:59:55 -0500, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
....
>>>> But do you fine people $75 a day for every day that there is a
>>>> dandelion taller than 12 inches?
>>>
>>> Okay, you've got me.
>>> Is this an HOA? Are you next to a golf course? Explain.
>>
>> Town government that is run like an HOA. They see "blight", defined
>> as "weeds (meaning one dandelion) taller than 12 inches" as a revenue
>> opportunity. They have a bunch of other ridiculous stuff in the same
>> vein.
>
> A whole town? Holy crap!
>
> 12 inches is pretty tall for a dandelion, at least the ones around here.
> But they shoot up fast, like overnight.
>
> If I knew where this place was, I'd be tempted to drive past town hall with
> a bunch of dandelion seeds to float out the car window.

If I lived there I'd grow plants which look like dandelions but are taller.
Like this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picris_hieracioides

(In fast I /did/ grow it last year; I have thousands of seeds now.)

/Jorgen

--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #403926 is a reply to message #403911] Fri, 08 January 2021 15:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: JimP

On Thu, 07 Jan 2021 22:37:04 -0500, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
wrote:
> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Thu, 07 Jan 2021 17:59:55 -0500, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 7 Jan 2021 21:32:18 GMT, Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >On Wed, 2021-01-06, Mike Spencer wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> My luck the commissar of garbage will be out that day. We have one of
>>>> >>> those. Also a dandelion inspector.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> You have to be kidding. A weed inspector in an agricultural region I
>>>> >> can understand. And it's not neccessary to drench the county with
>>>> >> herbicide to restrain weed plagues. But a dandelion inspector?
>>>> >
>>>> >I am a dandelion inspector, kind of. A lot of the species around here
>>>> >are restricted to very narrow habitats, and many are very rare, so as
>>>> >a botanist I try to pay attention. One species, Taxaxacum polium, was
>>>> >declared extinct recently; it was endemic to Gotland.
>>>>
>>>> But do you fine people $75 a day for every day that there is a
>>>> dandelion taller than 12 inches?
>>>
>>> Okay, you've got me.
>>> Is this an HOA? Are you next to a golf course? Explain.
>>
>> Town government that is run like an HOA. They see "blight", defined
>> as "weeds (meaning one dandelion) taller than 12 inches" as a revenue
>> opportunity. They have a bunch of other ridiculous stuff in the same
>> vein.
>
> A whole town? Holy crap!
>
> 12 inches is pretty tall for a dandelion, at least the ones around here.
> But they shoot up fast, like overnight.
>
> If I knew where this place was, I'd be tempted to drive past town hall with
> a bunch of dandelion seeds to float out the car window.

That town council sounds like escapees from a metal facility... on
Luna.


--
Jim
Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #403927 is a reply to message #403926] Fri, 08 January 2021 15:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Niklas Karlsson is currently offline  Niklas Karlsson
Messages: 265
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 2021-01-08, JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 07 Jan 2021 22:37:04 -0500, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> A whole town? Holy crap!
>>
>> 12 inches is pretty tall for a dandelion, at least the ones around here.
>> But they shoot up fast, like overnight.
>>
>> If I knew where this place was, I'd be tempted to drive past town hall with
>> a bunch of dandelion seeds to float out the car window.
>
> That town council sounds like escapees from a metal facility... on
> Luna.

I suppose metal would be a pretty good material to build facilities from
on Luna, unless you just dig them into the rock. Still would need some
metal for airlocks and whatnot.

Niklas
--
Kids have it easy today. All they have to listen to is stories about
how back in the '70s we had to listen to stories about how bad it was
back in the '30s. --Keith Lynch
Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #403928 is a reply to message #403925] Fri, 08 January 2021 16:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dan Espen is currently offline  Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
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Senior Member
Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> writes:

> On Fri, 2021-01-08, Dan Espen wrote:
>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> On Thu, 07 Jan 2021 17:59:55 -0500, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
> ...
>>>> > But do you fine people $75 a day for every day that there is a
>>>> > dandelion taller than 12 inches?
>>>>
>>>> Okay, you've got me.
>>>> Is this an HOA? Are you next to a golf course? Explain.
>>>
>>> Town government that is run like an HOA. They see "blight", defined
>>> as "weeds (meaning one dandelion) taller than 12 inches" as a revenue
>>> opportunity. They have a bunch of other ridiculous stuff in the same
>>> vein.
>>
>> A whole town? Holy crap!
>>
>> 12 inches is pretty tall for a dandelion, at least the ones around here.
>> But they shoot up fast, like overnight.
>>
>> If I knew where this place was, I'd be tempted to drive past town hall with
>> a bunch of dandelion seeds to float out the car window.
>
> If I lived there I'd grow plants which look like dandelions but are taller.
> Like this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picris_hieracioides
>
> (In fast I /did/ grow it last year; I have thousands of seeds now.)

That plant differs from a dandelion in a lot of ways.

If you grew it in your lawn they might fine you anyway,
it would still be a weed.

--
Dan Espen
Re: how not do self-drive, car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #403929 is a reply to message #403884] Fri, 08 January 2021 16:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
usenet is currently offline  usenet
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On Thu, 7 Jan 2021 12:40:13 +0000, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net>
wrote:
> On Thu, 7 Jan 2021 12:24:17 -0000 (UTC)
> John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
>> In article <20210107072855.f388412f6797973018a76d21@eircom.net>,
>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>>> Uh, "will be" implies that they don't exist now, which is not the
>>>> case.
>>>
>>> It is the case, there are no autonomous vehicles on the roads
>>> today
>>> only sophisticated driver assist systems that are nearly good enough to
>>> treat as autonomous.
>>
>> That turns out to be fairly pessimal. The car drives itself 95% of the
>> time, while the driver watches a movie or falls asleep.

It's nowhere near the fantasy that advocates are spinning.


> Hence the requirement for systems that detect this and do something
> about it - which seems not to be as well thought out or reliable as we
> might hope.
>
>> Then the car
>> runs into a situtation it can't handle itself, the driver isn't paying
>> attention, and uh oh.
>
> Yep and that last 5% is the hard 5% which won't get there without
> the 95% getting a lot of road testing. Still if Musk isn't shading the
> truth (granted that's a significant if) even with that effect the overall
> result is an improvement in safety.

It's a lot more than 5%. Self-driving cars perform poorly at night and in any
kind of inclement weather -- fog, rain, snow. Even in good weather, they don't
always correctly identify objects; one car failed to recognize a man carrying a
box on his shoulder as a pedestrian.

Waymo cars depend on an extensively detailed map. Every pole, sign, tree, etc.
near the road is known. The car doesn't do as well when it gets off its map.

There are lots of edge cases. As one example, every year millions of people
attend fairs and festivals where they park in grass fields. They park in mostly
orderly rows, but they have to avoid rocks, ditches, posts, etc. Often an
attendant will direct incoming traffic to the next space. How will self-driving
cars handle this?

As I pointed out, these are problems in the technical realm. What about the
social aspects? How will self-driving cars respond to a police officer
directing traffic, such as at a busy intersection when the signal is knocked
out? How about when that signal is working, but the police are directing
traffic to ignore it?

I've got lots more of these kind of problem issues. I'm keeping a list...


>> This was what happened when the Uber car killed someone in Arizona.
>> The very bored driver was apparently playing games on her phone.
>
> This is indeed a big problem - two solutions give up on autonomous
> vehicles or work hard to handle that last 5% while trying hard to stop
> people being idiots.

There are two parts to the solution: eliminate the edge cases and eliminate the
humans. That's why I say enormous infrastructure changes will be required.
I'm not in favor of eliminating humans, as I generally enjoy driving. But I
don't think the fantasy of fully self-driving cars will happen at such a point
in my life that it will make any difference, if indeed it can be achieved at
all.

In the medium term, autonomous vehicles will see use mostly as shuttles in
closed environments: airport parking lots, retirement communities, corporate
and college campuses, amusement parks, etc.
Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #403930 is a reply to message #403876] Fri, 08 January 2021 16:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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On Thu, 7 Jan 2021 07:04:28 +0000, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net>
wrote:
>> What Tesla has is mis-named driver assist features.
> Why misnamed ? *Nobody* claims it to be anything else. Elon Musk has
> claimed that Tesla are near to releasing level 5 self driving but they have
> not done so yet.

The name "Autopilot" implies fully automatic, able to handle all situations,
analogous to the other common use of the word autopilot, as in airplanes.
I know Tesla / the manual / the fine print doesn't make that claim, but the name
is still misleading. Three people have died relying on those features to do
what their name implies but what they could never do, and plenty more people
have done foolish things while letting Autopilot control the car -- and of
course, posted videos of themselves online.
Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #403931 is a reply to message #403892] Fri, 08 January 2021 16:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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On Thu, 7 Jan 2021 12:02:52 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Questor <usenet@only.tnx> wrote:
>> On 5 Jan 2021 20:12:38 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 2021-01-05, Questor <usenet@only.tnx> wrote:
>>>> Three people have died because they relied on Telsa Autopilot
>>>> to do the driving. Of course, they're not supposed to do that,
>>>> but it's a strong indication that self-driving technology is
>>>> not ready for the public.
>>>
>>> Or that the public isn't ready for self-driving technology.
>>
>> That's a nonsensical statement. One of the promises of true self-driving
>> vehicles -- which the Tesla is no where near -- is that the young, the disabled,
>> and the infirm -- will be able to rely on them for transportation without having
>> to drive at all. There's nothing to "being ready" for it -- the technology
>> either works or it doesn't. What Tesla has is mis-named driver assist features.
>
> I hadn't thought of the disabled until I heard it mentioned a few months
> ago. What a blessing it will be for them.

It's not going to happen in our lifetimes, especially for someone who otherwise
isn't sufficiently able to drive.

The same people who tout self-driving cars as a solution for the disabled
sometimes will also promote systems which expect someone to take over when
the car encounters a situation it can't handle. Obviously you can't have it
both ways.
Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #403932 is a reply to message #403902] Fri, 08 January 2021 16:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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On Thu, 7 Jan 2021 22:14:48 +0000, Vir Campestris
<vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 07/01/2021 01:41, Questor wrote:
>> On Tue, 5 Jan 2021 19:46:39 +0000, Ahem A Rivet's Shot<steveo@eircom.net>
>> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 05 Jan 2021 18:14:20 GMT
>>> usenet@only.tnx (Questor) wrote:
>>>> That's a very weak justification. You're saying that it's okay for
>>>> self-driving cars to kill and maim people in accidents, as long as it can
>>>> be statistically shown that they do so less frequently than humans.
>>> Yes because at that point they save lives.
>>>
>>>> Would you care to explain that argument to someone who just lost a loved
>>>> one in an accident with a self-driving vehicle?
>>> It's a very strong justification, car drivers kill and maim a lot
>>> of people every year. Once self driving vehicles kill and maim substantially
>>> fewer people per mile driven there is little justification for permitting
>>> people to drive.
>> That's a very radical position that doesn't comport with our responses to other
>> more deadly threats to life.
>>
>> In the U.S., many tens of thousands of people die every year -- more than twice
>> the number of traffic fatalities -- due to consumption of cigarettes. Similarly
>> for alcohol. Yet neither of them are illegal. You can work out the many
>> contradictions for yourself.
>
> </snip>
>
> AIUI The USA did try banning alcohol. ISTR it didn't end well :)
>
> Of course self driving cars will reduce the alcohol induced death rate.
> You need not be tempted to drive home after a few drinks.

The solution to that has existed for decades, and requires no advanced
technology. It's called a taxicab. More recently, the social construct of
"designated driver" has been invented.
Re: Grid capacity was: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #403933 is a reply to message #403562] Fri, 08 January 2021 16:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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On Sat, 2 Jan 2021 19:42:53 +0000 (UTC), danny burstein <dannyb@panix.com>
wrote:
> In <20210102170828.11c34674a8b30f337fc5bb3a@eircom.net> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
>> On Sat, 2 Jan 2021 16:29:54 +0000 (UTC)
>> danny burstein <dannyb@panix.com> wrote:
>>> well, there's always the nuclear -> steam -> turbine deal,
>>>
>>> Just five years away!
>
>> Huh ? That's what nuclear power stations have always used -
>> sometimes with liquid sodium as a heat exchange between reactor and steam
>> which I always thought to be a hair raising concept.
>
> Wait, what? You mean something promised via press release
> back in the 1940's actually worked out?

I think electricity "too cheap to meter" was the claim made at the time. There
was also a Popular Mechanics article about the future that predicted small
nuclear power generators for the home.
Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #403936 is a reply to message #403925] Fri, 08 January 2021 17:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On 8 Jan 2021 20:05:49 GMT, Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se>
wrote:

> On Fri, 2021-01-08, Dan Espen wrote:
>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> On Thu, 07 Jan 2021 17:59:55 -0500, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
> ...
>>>> > But do you fine people $75 a day for every day that there is a
>>>> > dandelion taller than 12 inches?
>>>>
>>>> Okay, you've got me.
>>>> Is this an HOA? Are you next to a golf course? Explain.
>>>
>>> Town government that is run like an HOA. They see "blight", defined
>>> as "weeds (meaning one dandelion) taller than 12 inches" as a revenue
>>> opportunity. They have a bunch of other ridiculous stuff in the same
>>> vein.
>>
>> A whole town? Holy crap!
>>
>> 12 inches is pretty tall for a dandelion, at least the ones around here.
>> But they shoot up fast, like overnight.
>>
>> If I knew where this place was, I'd be tempted to drive past town hall with
>> a bunch of dandelion seeds to float out the car window.
>
> If I lived there I'd grow plants which look like dandelions but are taller.
> Like this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picris_hieracioides
>
> (In fast I /did/ grow it last year; I have thousands of seeds now.)

Now there's a temptation. Of course if I wanted to be an ass about it
I'd dump a load of fertilizer on the attack roses and skip town.
Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #403938 is a reply to message #403899] Fri, 08 January 2021 20:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> wrote:
> On Wed, 2021-01-06, Mike Spencer wrote:
>>
>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> My luck the commissar of garbage will be out that day. We have one of
>>> those. Also a dandelion inspector.
>>
>> You have to be kidding. A weed inspector in an agricultural region I
>> can understand. And it's not neccessary to drench the county with
>> herbicide to restrain weed plagues. But a dandelion inspector?
>
> I am a dandelion inspector, kind of. A lot of the species around here
> are restricted to very narrow habitats, and many are very rare, so as
> a botanist I try to pay attention. One species, Taxaxacum polium, was
> declared extinct recently; it was endemic to Gotland.
>

I didn’t think it was possible to kill of dandelions.

--
Pete
Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #403939 is a reply to message #403911] Fri, 08 January 2021 20:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Thu, 07 Jan 2021 17:59:55 -0500, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 7 Jan 2021 21:32:18 GMT, Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > On Wed, 2021-01-06, Mike Spencer wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> My luck the commissar of garbage will be out that day. We have one of
>>>> >>> those. Also a dandelion inspector.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> You have to be kidding. A weed inspector in an agricultural region I
>>>> >> can understand. And it's not neccessary to drench the county with
>>>> >> herbicide to restrain weed plagues. But a dandelion inspector?
>>>> >
>>>> > I am a dandelion inspector, kind of. A lot of the species around here
>>>> > are restricted to very narrow habitats, and many are very rare, so as
>>>> > a botanist I try to pay attention. One species, Taxaxacum polium, was
>>>> > declared extinct recently; it was endemic to Gotland.
>>>>
>>>> But do you fine people $75 a day for every day that there is a
>>>> dandelion taller than 12 inches?
>>>
>>> Okay, you've got me.
>>> Is this an HOA? Are you next to a golf course? Explain.
>>
>> Town government that is run like an HOA. They see "blight", defined
>> as "weeds (meaning one dandelion) taller than 12 inches" as a revenue
>> opportunity. They have a bunch of other ridiculous stuff in the same
>> vein.
>
> A whole town? Holy crap!
>
> 12 inches is pretty tall for a dandelion, at least the ones around here.
> But they shoot up fast, like overnight.

But once they reach a certain height they droop over. IME about 7 in is the
limit.

--
Pete
Re: how not do self-drive, car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #403940 is a reply to message #403929] Fri, 08 January 2021 20:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
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Senior Member
Questor <usenet@only.tnx> wrote:
> There are two parts to the solution: eliminate the edge cases and eliminate the
> humans. That's why I say enormous infrastructure changes will be required.
> I'm not in favor of eliminating humans, as I generally enjoy driving.

But, if you eliminated the humans you’d have the road to yourself, and
driving would be even more fun.

--
Pete
Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #403941 is a reply to message #403930] Fri, 08 January 2021 20:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
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Senior Member
On 2021-01-08, Questor <usenet@only.tnx> wrote:

> On Thu, 7 Jan 2021 07:04:28 +0000, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net>
> wrote:
>
>>> What Tesla has is mis-named driver assist features.
>>
>> Why misnamed ? *Nobody* claims it to be anything else. Elon Musk has
>> claimed that Tesla are near to releasing level 5 self driving but they have
>> not done so yet.
>
> The name "Autopilot" implies fully automatic, able to handle all situations,
> analogous to the other common use of the word autopilot, as in airplanes.
> I know Tesla / the manual / the fine print doesn't make that claim, but the
> name is still misleading. Three people have died relying on those features
> to do what their name implies but what they could never do, and plenty more
> people have done foolish things while letting Autopilot control the car --
> and of course, posted videos of themselves online.

The concept of such abuse is not new. Years ago I heard (possibly an urban
legend) about a retired couple who bought an RV, put it on cruise control,
then went into the back to make a sandwich - with predictable results.

And aircraft autopilots can't handle everything either. (Ask the crew of
Air France 447 during your next seance.) Simpler autopilots can do little
more than keep the wings level and the nose pointed in the direction they
were asked to point it.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | "Some of you may die,
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | but it's a sacrifice
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | I'm willing to make."
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Lord Farquaad (Shrek)
Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #403942 is a reply to message #403938] Fri, 08 January 2021 20:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dan Espen is currently offline  Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:

> Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> wrote:
>> On Wed, 2021-01-06, Mike Spencer wrote:
>>>
>>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> My luck the commissar of garbage will be out that day. We have one of
>>>> those. Also a dandelion inspector.
>>>
>>> You have to be kidding. A weed inspector in an agricultural region I
>>> can understand. And it's not neccessary to drench the county with
>>> herbicide to restrain weed plagues. But a dandelion inspector?
>>
>> I am a dandelion inspector, kind of. A lot of the species around here
>> are restricted to very narrow habitats, and many are very rare, so as
>> a botanist I try to pay attention. One species, Taxaxacum polium, was
>> declared extinct recently; it was endemic to Gotland.
>
> I didn’t think it was possible to kill of dandelions.

Lots of things kill dandelions.
Starting with Broadleaf Herbicide.

If you want to pull them, it's necessary to get the tap root which goes
down quite a ways. They make a tool for that but I have a 12 inch knife
I like to use. Plunge it into the soil at an angle to sever the tap
root 4 to 6 inches down then pull the plant out. As I'm walking around
I like to throw the knife at the plants. I'm pretty good with it.

Of course it's pretty hard to kill ALL of them. Those seeds float long
distances.

--
Dan Espen
Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #403943 is a reply to message #403939] Fri, 08 January 2021 20:45 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Dan Espen is currently offline  Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:

> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> On Thu, 07 Jan 2021 17:59:55 -0500, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>> > On 7 Jan 2021 21:32:18 GMT, Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se>
>>>> > wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> On Wed, 2021-01-06, Mike Spencer wrote:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> My luck the commissar of garbage will be out that day. We have one of
>>>> >>>> those. Also a dandelion inspector.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> You have to be kidding. A weed inspector in an agricultural region I
>>>> >>> can understand. And it's not neccessary to drench the county with
>>>> >>> herbicide to restrain weed plagues. But a dandelion inspector?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I am a dandelion inspector, kind of. A lot of the species around here
>>>> >> are restricted to very narrow habitats, and many are very rare, so as
>>>> >> a botanist I try to pay attention. One species, Taxaxacum polium, was
>>>> >> declared extinct recently; it was endemic to Gotland.
>>>> >
>>>> > But do you fine people $75 a day for every day that there is a
>>>> > dandelion taller than 12 inches?
>>>>
>>>> Okay, you've got me.
>>>> Is this an HOA? Are you next to a golf course? Explain.
>>>
>>> Town government that is run like an HOA. They see "blight", defined
>>> as "weeds (meaning one dandelion) taller than 12 inches" as a revenue
>>> opportunity. They have a bunch of other ridiculous stuff in the same
>>> vein.
>>
>> A whole town? Holy crap!
>>
>> 12 inches is pretty tall for a dandelion, at least the ones around here.
>> But they shoot up fast, like overnight.
>
> But once they reach a certain height they droop over. IME about 7 in is the
> limit.

I think you're right. This is going to call for some measurements this
year. If over 12 is really the rule, it might be an even stupider rule.


--
Dan Espen
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