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Re: SYSTEMD? EGAD! [message #399783 is a reply to message #399742] Thu, 10 September 2020 12:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
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Registered: December 2011
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Senior Member
<antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl> wrote:
> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 8 Sep 2020 11:13:43 GMT, Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2020-09-08, gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> My impression, clearly quite wrong, was that LINUX
>>>> was little more than a vehicle for launching programs,
>>>> ie, an uppity MSDOS, but with provision for multi-tasking
>>>> (multi-programming?)
>>>
>>> Not to mention vastly better memory management.
>>
>> Calling LINUX "an uppity MSDOS", is kind of like calling MSDOS a
>> "crippled Unix".
>>
>> LINUX provided pretty much the full functionality of the UNIX kernel,
>> which had up until that time been the missing piece for an open source
>> UNIX clone. Prior to that time, any UNIX implementation that was full
>> enough to be useful for anything beyond recreational and student use
>> used AT&T licensed code and the license could be quite costly.
>
> Before Linux were Minix, Coherent and 386BSD. Your claim
> probably is about Minux, but even in this case you exagerate.
> I used 386BSD and it was quite buggy, but had all what is
> needed to run wide variety of useful programs. I never used
> Coherent, but given descriptions it is pretty clear that
> that Coherent had much more functionality than Linux-0.01.

I played with Minix back in the day. It was very slow and limited. I tried
it only because I wanted to get some familiarity with unix, and it did
that, but I can’t imagine anyone trying to so anything useful with it.

--
Pete
Re: SYSTEMD? EGAD! [message #399784 is a reply to message #399747] Thu, 10 September 2020 12:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
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Stefan Möding <Sep2020.5.kill-9@spamgourmet.com> wrote:
> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Or the Unix world would have continued to be fragmented.
>
> I consider Linux today almost as fragmented as Unix was 20-30 years ago.
> Running mostly on one or two CPU architectures seems to make it better now.
> But if you look at the differences in setting up network interfaces for
> example:
>
> - legacy config files
> - systemd network config
> - netplan
> - NetworkManager
> - ...?
>
> Linux could have done better.
>

Agreed. As I’ve said elsewhere, everyone thinks they have a better of how
to do things. Maybe they do, but sometimes consistent beats better.

--
Pete
Re: SYSTEMD? EGAD! [message #399785 is a reply to message #399772] Thu, 10 September 2020 12:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
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J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 16:09:13 +0000 (UTC), antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl
> wrote:
>
>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 11:20:04 +0000 (UTC), antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> > On 8 Sep 2020 11:13:43 GMT, Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> On 2020-09-08, gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> My impression, clearly quite wrong, was that LINUX
>>>> >>> was little more than a vehicle for launching programs,
>>>> >>> ie, an uppity MSDOS, but with provision for multi-tasking
>>>> >>> (multi-programming?)
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Not to mention vastly better memory management.
>>>> >
>>>> > Calling LINUX "an uppity MSDOS", is kind of like calling MSDOS a
>>>> > "crippled Unix".
>>>> >
>>>> > LINUX provided pretty much the full functionality of the UNIX kernel,
>>>> > which had up until that time been the missing piece for an open source
>>>> > UNIX clone. Prior to that time, any UNIX implementation that was full
>>>> > enough to be useful for anything beyond recreational and student use
>>>> > used AT&T licensed code and the license could be quite costly.
>>>>
>>>> Before Linux were Minix,
>>>
>>> Linux started out as a rewrite of Minix to address its shortcomings.
>>
>> This is rather inprecise. Minix had its shortcomings. I am not
>> aware of serious use of Minix, but my lack of info does not
>> prove that there were none. Certainly was not replacement for
>> UNIX(TM) but was solid enough to usable in _some_ serious setups.
>
> In what way is it imprecise? Linus Torvalds had Minix. He wasn't
> happy with it, he set out to redo the kernel, he did, what he came up
> with was a significant improvent, and so we have Linux.

The vast improvements in hardware made the difference. I think I first
looked at Minix on an XT where it barely fit. I think by the time Linux
became popular most machines were Pentium or better, with a lot more RAM
and disk.

--
Pete
Re: SYSTEMD? EGAD! [message #399787 is a reply to message #399773] Thu, 10 September 2020 12:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andy Leighton is currently offline  Andy Leighton
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On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 17:18:29 +0100, Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> wrote:
> Don't know about Linux, but both FreeBSD and Solaris support text only
> or gui installs. Use both here, but in this lab, never use dhcp, always
> fixed ip, as it makes it easier to locate any given machine by
> hostname alone.

Yep my home server is running without any gui interface and with a fixed
IP. All handled from a standard Linux install. Same as the web servers I
manage.

--
Andy Leighton => andyl@azaal.plus.com
"We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
- Douglas Adams
Re: SYSTEMD? EGAD! [message #399788 is a reply to message #399774] Thu, 10 September 2020 13:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Niklas Karlsson is currently offline  Niklas Karlsson
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On 2020-09-10, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>
> Who needs X? For me, the one must-have when setting up a new system
> is a second computer with a working network interface and web browser.
> Then I can look up the instructions for setting up /etc/network/interfaces.

I recently built a new shell server based on Ubuntu 20.04.1 LTS, after
for the longest time using a Debian machine that belonged in a museum.
I've not really had a lot of Ubuntu exposure; for work I've mostly dealt
with the Red Hat family.

I was surprised to find an /etc/network/interfaces file of 0 bytes.
Googling revealed that it was using netplan, so the network
configuration is in a YAML file under /etc/netplan.

Not bad, mind you. Reasonably pleasant file format to deal with.

Niklas
--
When being picked up against their will by larger creatures, cats and human
children share not only the ability to temporarily sprout extra limbs and
perform incredible acts of contortionism, but also to temporarily increase their
weight.
Re: SYSTEMD? EGAD! [message #399790 is a reply to message #399783] Thu, 10 September 2020 13:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Niklas Karlsson is currently offline  Niklas Karlsson
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Registered: January 2012
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On 2020-09-10, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> I played with Minix back in the day. It was very slow and limited. I tried
> it only because I wanted to get some familiarity with unix, and it did
> that, but I can’t imagine anyone trying to so anything useful with it.

I seem to recall firing it up on my Amiga 500 in the early 90s. I did
not enjoy the experience much and soon went back to AmigaOS.

Niklas
--
So basically you're not really choosing based on level of sanity as you
originally claimed, you just happen to like one sort of insanity more
than the other. Fair enough, we all have our insanity preferences.
-- Steve VanDevender, asr
Re: SYSTEMD? EGAD! [message #399791 is a reply to message #399790] Thu, 10 September 2020 13:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Stefan Möding

Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> writes:

> On 2020-09-10, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> I played with Minix back in the day. It was very slow and limited. I tried
>> it only because I wanted to get some familiarity with unix, and it did
>> that, but I can’t imagine anyone trying to so anything useful with it.

> I seem to recall firing it up on my Amiga 500 in the early 90s. I did
> not enjoy the experience much and soon went back to AmigaOS.

Keep in mind that Minix was a University project: students should be able to
study the source code and run it on cheap hardware at home.

--
Stefan
Re: SYSTEMD? EGAD! [message #399792 is a reply to message #399787] Thu, 10 September 2020 13:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Chris

On 09/10/20 17:59, Andy Leighton wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 17:18:29 +0100, Chris<xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> wrote:
>> Don't know about Linux, but both FreeBSD and Solaris support text only
>> or gui installs. Use both here, but in this lab, never use dhcp, always
>> fixed ip, as it makes it easier to locate any given machine by
>> hostname alone.
>
> Yep my home server is running without any gui interface and with a fixed
> IP. All handled from a standard Linux install. Same as the web servers I
> manage.
>

Other point is that for a large site, if the dhcp server goes down,
nothing runs. Fixed ip makes each machine self contained in that
respect...

Chris
Re: SYSTEMD? EGAD! [message #399793 is a reply to message #399772] Thu, 10 September 2020 13:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
scott is currently offline  scott
Messages: 4237
Registered: February 2012
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Senior Member
J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
> On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 16:09:13 +0000 (UTC), antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl
> wrote:
>

>>> Linux started out as a rewrite of Minix to address its shortcomings.
>>
>> This is rather inprecise. Minix had its shortcomings. I am not
>> aware of serious use of Minix, but my lack of info does not
>> prove that there were none. Certainly was not replacement for
>> UNIX(TM) but was solid enough to usable in _some_ serious setups.
>
> In what way is it imprecise? Linus Torvalds had Minix. He wasn't
> happy with it, he set out to redo the kernel, he did, what he came up
> with was a significant improvent, and so we have Linux.

Minix was a teaching tool. It was never a production OS or widely
used.
Re: SYSTEMD? EGAD! [message #399794 is a reply to message #399771] Thu, 10 September 2020 13:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Bob Eager

On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 16:09:13 +0000, antispam wrote:

>> Linux started out as a rewrite of Minix to address its shortcomings.
>
> This is rather inprecise. Minix had its shortcomings. I am not aware
> of serious use of Minix, but my lack of info does not prove that there
> were none.

Tanenbaum only intended its as a teaching tool, but it got away from him!

> Certainly was not replacement for UNIX(TM) but was solid
> enough to usable in _some_ serious setups.

Intel CPUs...

--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
Re: SYSTEMD? EGAD! [message #399795 is a reply to message #399772] Thu, 10 September 2020 13:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Bob Eager

On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 12:17:28 -0400, J. Clarke wrote:

> In what way is it imprecise? Linus Torvalds had Minix. He wasn't happy
> with it, he set out to redo the kernel, he did, what he came up with was
> a significant improvent, and so we have Linux.

Of course. Minix was a teaching tool. It didn't even have memory
management or protection. I ran it on an 8088 (actually, no - it was a
V20).



--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
Re: SYSTEMD? EGAD! [message #399796 is a reply to message #399779] Thu, 10 September 2020 13:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Bob Eager

On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 17:37:22 +0100, gareth evans wrote:

> On 10/09/2020 12:57, Bob Eager wrote:
>> ... they never really understood how to program the 8259 interrupt
>> controller.
>
> Fought against that in 1981 on a PABX development,
>
> Herald / KBX100 at Pye TMC in Malmesbury.
>
> Did not behave as expected.
>
> IIRC, not edge triggered but level triggered with edge lockout. A very
> strange design decision by Intel.

Yes, although the issues the Jolitzes had were more to do with basic
concepts!



--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
Re: SYSTEMD? EGAD! [message #399797 is a reply to message #399790] Thu, 10 September 2020 13:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Bob Eager

On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 17:05:32 +0000, Niklas Karlsson wrote:

> On 2020-09-10, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> I played with Minix back in the day. It was very slow and limited. I
>> tried it only because I wanted to get some familiarity with unix, and
>> it did that, but I can’t imagine anyone trying to so anything useful
>> with it.
>
> I seem to recall firing it up on my Amiga 500 in the early 90s. I did
> not enjoy the experience much and soon went back to AmigaOS.

I have the forerunner of AmigaDOS (TRIPOS) running on the PDP-11 (well,
emulator for now, until I fix the hardware).

--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
Re: SYSTEMD? EGAD! [message #399809 is a reply to message #399791] Thu, 10 September 2020 15:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ted@loft.tnolan.com ( is currently offline  ted@loft.tnolan.com (
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In article <m2wo11mu5x.fsf@athena.moeding.net>,
Stefan Möding <Sep2020.5.kill-9@spamgourmet.com> wrote:
> Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> writes:
>
>> On 2020-09-10, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I played with Minix back in the day. It was very slow and limited. I tried
>>> it only because I wanted to get some familiarity with unix, and it did
>>> that, but I can’t imagine anyone trying to so anything useful with it.
>
>> I seem to recall firing it up on my Amiga 500 in the early 90s. I did
>> not enjoy the experience much and soon went back to AmigaOS.
>
> Keep in mind that Minix was a University project: students should be able to
> study the source code and run it on cheap hardware at home.
>
> --
> Stefan

There was Comer's XINU as well. Originally ran on LSI-11s I think but came
out with a PC compatible version as well. It was the subject OS for his OS
textbook which was very nice.

(IIRC, XINU was more an embedded type OS than something trying to be a Unix
clone though)
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Re: SYSTEMD? EGAD! [message #399810 is a reply to message #399797] Thu, 10 September 2020 15:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
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On 10 Sep 2020 17:39:05 GMT
Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> wrote:

> I have the forerunner of AmigaDOS (TRIPOS) running on the PDP-11 (well,
> emulator for now, until I fix the hardware).

Now that's something I haven't seen in a very long time.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: SYSTEMD? EGAD! [message #399814 is a reply to message #399810] Thu, 10 September 2020 16:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Bob Eager

On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 20:25:49 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

> On 10 Sep 2020 17:39:05 GMT Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> wrote:
>
>> I have the forerunner of AmigaDOS (TRIPOS) running on the PDP-11 (well,
>> emulator for now, until I fix the hardware).
>
> Now that's something I haven't seen in a very long time.

It's been hard work. Incomplete and incompatible sources. First build the
compiler to build the tools to build the... and also tools to build disk
images and the like.




--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
Re: SYSTEMD? EGAD! [message #399823 is a reply to message #399792] Thu, 10 September 2020 19:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
scott is currently offline  scott
Messages: 4237
Registered: February 2012
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Senior Member
Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> writes:
> On 09/10/20 17:59, Andy Leighton wrote:
>> On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 17:18:29 +0100, Chris<xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Don't know about Linux, but both FreeBSD and Solaris support text only
>>> or gui installs. Use both here, but in this lab, never use dhcp, always
>>> fixed ip, as it makes it easier to locate any given machine by
>>> hostname alone.
>>
>> Yep my home server is running without any gui interface and with a fixed
>> IP. All handled from a standard Linux install. Same as the web servers I
>> manage.
>>
>
> Other point is that for a large site, if the dhcp server goes down,
> nothing runs. Fixed ip makes each machine self contained in that
> respect...

Large sites will have redundant DHCP servers, generally, and generous
TTL on the leases.
Re: SYSTEMD? EGAD! [message #399824 is a reply to message #399792] Thu, 10 September 2020 19:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Bob Eager

On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 18:20:11 +0100, Chris wrote:

> Other point is that for a large site, if the dhcp server goes down,
> nothing runs. Fixed ip makes each machine self contained in that
> respect...

DHCP failover has been a thing for years.

--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
Re: SYSTEMD? EGAD! [message #399828 is a reply to message #399753] Thu, 10 September 2020 19:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Melzzzzz

On 2020-09-10, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
> Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> writes:
>
>> On 2020-09-10, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Stefan Möding <Sep2020.5.kill-9@spamgourmet.com> writes:
>>>> I consider Linux today almost as fragmented as Unix was 20-30 years ago.
>>>> Running mostly on one or two CPU architectures seems to make it better now.
>>>> But if you look at the differences in setting up network interfaces for
>>>> example:
>> [various solutions]
>>>
>>> Huh?
>>>
>>> You just install it and your network works.
>>> What is this "setting up network interfaces"
>>> you speak of?
>>
>> That's fine for a workstation with DHCP available on the network. For
>> servers, yes, you can use DHCP (likely with a particular address/MAC
>> pair configured on the DHCP server), but so far as I've seen, the most
>> common solution by far is to simply configure a static IP locally on
>> your server.
>>
>> That requires digging rather deeper into whatever network configuration
>> solution your distro is using at the moment.
>
> Are you sure there isn't some GUI to go into and just click on static
> IP? That would seem rather elementary for any distro.

If you are doing it on server, you probably don't want GUI...
>
>


--
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skills: c++,c,rust,go,nim,haskell...

press any key to continue or any other to quit...
U ničemu ja ne uživam kao u svom statusu INVALIDA -- Zli Zec
Svi smo svedoci - oko 3 godine intenzivne propagande je dovoljno da jedan narod poludi -- Zli Zec
Na divljem zapadu i nije bilo tako puno nasilja, upravo zato jer su svi
bili naoruzani. -- Mladen Gogala
Re: SYSTEMD? EGAD! [message #399829 is a reply to message #399754] Thu, 10 September 2020 19:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Melzzzzz

On 2020-09-10, Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> wrote:
> On 2020-09-10, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Are you sure there isn't some GUI to go into and just click on static
>> IP? That would seem rather elementary for any distro.
>
> No doubt there is, but most servers don't have X.

Exactly. And configuring it ain't rocket science as well :)

>
> Niklas


--
current job title: senior software engineer
skills: c++,c,rust,go,nim,haskell...

press any key to continue or any other to quit...
U ničemu ja ne uživam kao u svom statusu INVALIDA -- Zli Zec
Svi smo svedoci - oko 3 godine intenzivne propagande je dovoljno da jedan narod poludi -- Zli Zec
Na divljem zapadu i nije bilo tako puno nasilja, upravo zato jer su svi
bili naoruzani. -- Mladen Gogala
Re: SYSTEMD? EGAD! [message #399830 is a reply to message #399757] Thu, 10 September 2020 19:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Melzzzzz

On 2020-09-10, Stefan Möding <Sep2020.5.kill-9@spamgourmet.com> wrote:
> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> You just install it and your network works.
>> What is this "setting up network interfaces"
>> you speak of?
>
> I need to do do automatic installations & configurations for multiple distros
> and I wish there would be a uniform way.

You have ifconfig and ip...
>
>
>> Apparently 'systemd network config" is an example of Linux
>> doing better.
>
>> Excuse me I need to put on my asbestos suit now.
>
> I like the systemd way of network configuration. After getting rid of some
> legacy machine I hoped for doing it the systemd way.
>
> Unfortunately RedHat (I believe they pay for much of the systemd work) decided
> to not support systemd network configuration for RedHat-8. The binary is not
> available for RedHat-8/CentOS-8 (unless you compile it yourself).
>


--
current job title: senior software engineer
skills: c++,c,rust,go,nim,haskell...

press any key to continue or any other to quit...
U ničemu ja ne uživam kao u svom statusu INVALIDA -- Zli Zec
Svi smo svedoci - oko 3 godine intenzivne propagande je dovoljno da jedan narod poludi -- Zli Zec
Na divljem zapadu i nije bilo tako puno nasilja, upravo zato jer su svi
bili naoruzani. -- Mladen Gogala
Re: SYSTEMD? EGAD! [message #399831 is a reply to message #399824] Thu, 10 September 2020 20:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Chris

On 09/11/20 00:23, Bob Eager wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 18:20:11 +0100, Chris wrote:
>
>> Other point is that for a large site, if the dhcp server goes down,
>> nothing runs. Fixed ip makes each machine self contained in that
>> respect...
>
> DHCP failover has been a thing for years.
>

I'm sure that's right, but reliable systems design tries to minimise
single points of failure and interdependencies between the various
subsystems. Dhcp is overkill for small networks, imho, lazy man's
host id control. Dinosaurs just use host files, of course :-).

Yet another reason to instinctively dislike systemd,
interdepedencie...

Chris
Re: SYSTEMD? EGAD! [message #399844 is a reply to message #399774] Fri, 11 September 2020 01:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike Spencer is currently offline  Mike Spencer
Messages: 997
Registered: January 2012
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Senior Member
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:

> Who needs X? For me, the one must-have when setting up a new system
> is a second computer with a working network interface and web browser.

Second that.

> Then I can look up the instructions for setting up
> /etc/network/interfaces.

And everything else. Who can remember all the details for something
complex that you do once every few years? Who can even remember to put
all the hacks, tweaks and config details accumulated over years in a
helper TO-DO file?

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
Re: SYSTEMD? EGAD! [message #399845 is a reply to message #399829] Fri, 11 September 2020 02:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Stefan Möding

Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> writes:

> On 2020-09-10, Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> wrote:
>> On 2020-09-10, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Are you sure there isn't some GUI to go into and just click on static
>>> IP? That would seem rather elementary for any distro.
>>
>> No doubt there is, but most servers don't have X.

> Exactly. And configuring it ain't rocket science as well :)

I’ve worked at a place where many Linux servers were running X only because
some sysadmin was unable to do the job without all the GUI tools.

--
Stefan
Re: SYSTEMD? EGAD! [message #399847 is a reply to message #399823] Fri, 11 September 2020 02:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Niklas Karlsson is currently offline  Niklas Karlsson
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Senior Member
On 2020-09-10, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
> Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> writes:
>>
>> Other point is that for a large site, if the dhcp server goes down,
>> nothing runs. Fixed ip makes each machine self contained in that
>> respect...
>
> Large sites will have redundant DHCP servers, generally, and generous
> TTL on the leases.

Lease length is always a balancing act. Too short, and yes, you're
vulnerable if anything happens to the DHCP infrastructure; too long, and
you're in for a lot of pain when you need to rejigger the network.

I saw one shop that had infinite leases. THAT made for fun times when
things changed in the network!

Niklas
--
"... I've seen Sun monitors on fire off the side of the multimedia lab.
I've seen NTU lights glitter in the dark near the Mail Gate.
All these things will be lost in time, like the root partition last week.
Time to die...". - Peter Gutmann in alt.sysadmin.recovery
Re: SYSTEMD? EGAD! [message #399854 is a reply to message #399785] Fri, 11 September 2020 09:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Thomas Koenig

Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> schrieb:
> I think by the time Linux
> became popular most machines were Pentium or better, with a lot more RAM
> and disk.

I fist ran Linux on a 486 (I think) from the first version of
Slackware ever, downloaded via the the only PC in the computer
center that could connect to the mainframe, which was the only
way into the Internet.
Re: SYSTEMD? EGAD! [message #399855 is a reply to message #399854] Fri, 11 September 2020 09:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ted@loft.tnolan.com ( is currently offline  ted@loft.tnolan.com (
Messages: 161
Registered: August 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
In article <rjftmu$2ng$1@newsreader4.netcologne.de>,
Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> schrieb:
>> I think by the time Linux
>> became popular most machines were Pentium or better, with a lot more RAM
>> and disk.
>
> I fist ran Linux on a 486 (I think) from the first version of
> Slackware ever, downloaded via the the only PC in the computer
> center that could connect to the mainframe, which was the only
> way into the Internet.

Of course the epochal V7 ran in 64K..

Interestingly IBM had a commercial System-III based Unix called, I think,
PC-IX that ran on the 8088 IBM-PC. You did have to have a hard drive.
It fudged memory protection with the segment registers, and if you compiled
your programs with the provided C compiler, you were "unlikely" to be able
to crash the system with a user program.

I wonder how many copies they actually sold?
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Re: SYSTEMD? EGAD! [message #399859 is a reply to message #399855] Fri, 11 September 2020 10:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Bob Eager

On Fri, 11 Sep 2020 13:39:13 +0000, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:

> In article <rjftmu$2ng$1@newsreader4.netcologne.de>,
> Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> schrieb:
>>> I think by the time Linux became popular most machines were Pentium or
>>> better, with a lot more RAM and disk.
>>
>> I fist ran Linux on a 486 (I think) from the first version of Slackware
>> ever, downloaded via the the only PC in the computer center that could
>> connect to the mainframe, which was the only way into the Internet.
>
> Of course the epochal V7 ran in 64K..

Strictly speaking, it ran in 56kB. The top 8kB was memory mapped
registers for CPU and I/O control.

I am currently resurrecting an operating system that ran on the PDP-11.
It's a tight squeeze for any meaningful multitasking system.

> Interestingly IBM had a commercial System-III based Unix called, I
> think, PC-IX that ran on the 8088 IBM-PC. You did have to have a hard
> drive.

A colleague and me were jointly approached by Addison-Wesley to write PC
books based on IBM software. He got the PC/IX book, and I got PC-DOS.

I did quite well with royalties. He didn't.

--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
Re: SYSTEMD? EGAD! [message #399860 is a reply to message #399824] Fri, 11 September 2020 10:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: JimP

On 10 Sep 2020 23:23:16 GMT, Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 18:20:11 +0100, Chris wrote:
>
>> Other point is that for a large site, if the dhcp server goes down,
>> nothing runs. Fixed ip makes each machine self contained in that
>> respect...
>
> DHCP failover has been a thing for years.

Cableone didn't have that tech know how for years.

--
Jim
Re: SYSTEMD? EGAD! [message #399885 is a reply to message #399844] Fri, 11 September 2020 16:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 2020-09-11, Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:

> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>
>> Who needs X? For me, the one must-have when setting up a new system
>> is a second computer with a working network interface and web browser.
>
> Second that.
>
>> Then I can look up the instructions for setting up
>> /etc/network/interfaces.
>
> And everything else. Who can remember all the details for something
> complex that you do once every few years? Who can even remember to put
> all the hacks, tweaks and config details accumulated over years in a
> helper TO-DO file?

I came across a file listing all the essential steps and gotchas
that I wrote the last time I set up a system. Too bad I had
forgotten about it and only came across it when I was nearly
finished figuring it out all over again...

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.
Re: SYSTEMD? EGAD! [message #399886 is a reply to message #399885] Fri, 11 September 2020 17:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Bob Eager

On Fri, 11 Sep 2020 20:41:43 +0000, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> On 2020-09-11, Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>
>> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>>
>>> Who needs X? For me, the one must-have when setting up a new system
>>> is a second computer with a working network interface and web browser.
>>
>> Second that.
>>
>>> Then I can look up the instructions for setting up
>>> /etc/network/interfaces.
>>
>> And everything else. Who can remember all the details for something
>> complex that you do once every few years? Who can even remember to put
>> all the hacks, tweaks and config details accumulated over years in a
>> helper TO-DO file?
>
> I came across a file listing all the essential steps and gotchas that I
> wrote the last time I set up a system. Too bad I had forgotten about it
> and only came across it when I was nearly finished figuring it out all
> over again...

I have a hardback A4 log book for each computer. And I keep the old ones.



--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
Re: SYSTEMD? EGAD! [message #399894 is a reply to message #399854] Fri, 11 September 2020 19:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike Spencer is currently offline  Mike Spencer
Messages: 997
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> writes:

> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> schrieb:
>
>> I think by the time Linux became popular most machines were Pentium
>> or better, with a lot more RAM and disk.
>
> I fist ran Linux on a 486 (I think) from the first version of
> Slackware ever, downloaded via the the only PC in the computer
> center that could connect to the mainframe, which was the only
> way into the Internet.

I bought a 2nd hand Pentium for my launch into Linux in '99. Later,
I put it on a 486 for a demo for a group of enthusiasts keen on this
new internet thing. Poor demo because X was too sluggish to be
convincing. (Was fine on my home Pentium.)


--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
Re: SYSTEMD? EGAD! [message #399919 is a reply to message #399886] Sat, 12 September 2020 10:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Chris

On 09/11/20 22:11, Bob Eager wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Sep 2020 20:41:43 +0000, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> On 2020-09-11, Mike Spencer<mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>>
>>> Charlie Gibbs<cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>>>
>>>> Who needs X? For me, the one must-have when setting up a new system
>>>> is a second computer with a working network interface and web browser.
>>>
>>> Second that.
>>>
>>>> Then I can look up the instructions for setting up
>>>> /etc/network/interfaces.
>>>
>>> And everything else. Who can remember all the details for something
>>> complex that you do once every few years? Who can even remember to put
>>> all the hacks, tweaks and config details accumulated over years in a
>>> helper TO-DO file?
>>
>> I came across a file listing all the essential steps and gotchas that I
>> wrote the last time I set up a system. Too bad I had forgotten about it
>> and only came across it when I was nearly finished figuring it out all
>> over again...
>
> I have a hardback A4 log book for each computer. And I keep the old ones.
>
>
>

Similar thing here, 4 ring binders, indexed, tab for each system.
Different ring binder for each class of system worked with.
Some hand scribbled and some properly typed records of systems and
configurations, experiments etc, but have been caught out by being a
little too terse at times...

Chris
Re: SYSTEMD? EGAD! [message #399922 is a reply to message #399919] Sat, 12 September 2020 12:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Bob Eager

On Sat, 12 Sep 2020 15:06:10 +0100, Chris wrote:

> On 09/11/20 22:11, Bob Eager wrote:

>> I have a hardback A4 log book for each computer. And I keep the old
>> ones.

> Similar thing here, 4 ring binders, indexed, tab for each system.
> Different ring binder for each class of system worked with.
> Some hand scribbled and some properly typed records of systems and
> configurations, experiments etc, but have been caught out by being a
> little too terse at times...

Yes, I end up sticking in small printed bits sometimes.

I've also started putting non-trivial config files into a subversion
repository.

--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
Re: SYSTEMD? EGAD! [message #400547 is a reply to message #399747] Fri, 25 September 2020 19:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jorgen Grahn is currently offline  Jorgen Grahn
Messages: 606
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Thu, 2020-09-10, Stefan Möding wrote:
> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Or the Unix world would have continued to be fragmented.
>
> I consider Linux today almost as fragmented as Unix was 20-30 years ago.
> Running mostly on one or two CPU architectures seems to make it better now.

Why would the CPU be an issue? I used to run Debian on x86, AMD64 and
PowerPC, and of course they worked exactly the same way. Free
software tends not to have endianness bugs, or 32/64-bit bugs.

(In the past few years though, there's some kind of force away from
big-endian. I haven't fully understood what's behind that, apart the
fact that big-endian architectures are less successful right now.)

/Jorgen

--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
Re: SYSTEMD? EGAD! [message #400548 is a reply to message #399774] Fri, 25 September 2020 19:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jorgen Grahn is currently offline  Jorgen Grahn
Messages: 606
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Thu, 2020-09-10, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2020-09-10, Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> wrote:
>
>> On 2020-09-10, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Are you sure there isn't some GUI to go into and just click on static
>>> IP? That would seem rather elementary for any distro.
>>
>> No doubt there is, but most servers don't have X.
>
> Who needs X? For me, the one must-have when setting up a new system
> is a second computer with a working network interface and web browser.
> Then I can look up the instructions for setting up /etc/network/interfaces.

"man 5 interfaces" on the system you're setting up should also be
enough. You need something like two lines for DHCP or IPv6, or four
lines for static IPv4.

/Jorgen

--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
Re: SYSTEMD? EGAD! [message #400555 is a reply to message #399797] Sat, 26 September 2020 01:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jorgen Grahn is currently offline  Jorgen Grahn
Messages: 606
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Thu, 2020-09-10, Bob Eager wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 17:05:32 +0000, Niklas Karlsson wrote:
>
>> On 2020-09-10, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I played with Minix back in the day. It was very slow and limited. I
>>> tried it only because I wanted to get some familiarity with unix, and
>>> it did that, but I can’t imagine anyone trying to so anything useful
>>> with it.
>>
>> I seem to recall firing it up on my Amiga 500 in the early 90s. I did
>> not enjoy the experience much and soon went back to AmigaOS.
>
> I have the forerunner of AmigaDOS (TRIPOS) running on the PDP-11 (well,
> emulator for now, until I fix the hardware).

As I understand it, only the disk I/O and filesystem were taken from
TRIPOS: dos.library. And it was a way to cut corners; it was not
something people /wanted/ to have. I vaguely remember it being hard
to program against, because it used Pascal strings and pointers were
to 32-bit words (?)

(Now it sounds as if I'm badmouthing TRIPOS. I'm not; I know almost
nothing about it.

/Jorgen

--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
Re: SYSTEMD? EGAD! [message #400559 is a reply to message #400547] Sat, 26 September 2020 04:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Niklas Karlsson is currently offline  Niklas Karlsson
Messages: 265
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 2020-09-25, Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> wrote:
> (In the past few years though, there's some kind of force away from
> big-endian. I haven't fully understood what's behind that, apart the
> fact that big-endian architectures are less successful right now.)

Are ARM Macs going to be big- or little-endian, I wonder?

Niklas
--
Must confess, i'd feel just a little bit
conspicuous ordering a large Espresso and an enema-bag at my local
coffee-house...
-- Tanuki in asr
Re: SYSTEMD? EGAD! [message #400562 is a reply to message #400555] Sat, 26 September 2020 07:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Bob Eager

On Sat, 26 Sep 2020 05:48:32 +0000, Jorgen Grahn wrote:

> As I understand it, only the disk I/O and filesystem were taken from
> TRIPOS: dos.library. And it was a way to cut corners; it was not
> something people /wanted/ to have. I vaguely remember it being hard to
> program against, because it used Pascal strings and pointers were to
> 32-bit words (?)

You may well be right; I must find out more.

The strings were stored as a count byte followed by that number of
characters. That may well be a 'Pascal string' but TRIPOS was written in
BCPL, and that certainly uses that as a string format.

The file system is quite interesting, with some metadata within each file
block (which was to increase resilience, but in some situations could be
a pain). I know this because I have been digging deep into TRIPOS, and
have recently written a program to create and populate a TRIPOS disk
image.

--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
Re: SYSTEMD? EGAD! [message #400565 is a reply to message #400555] Sat, 26 September 2020 08:44 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: maus

On 2020-09-26, Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> wrote:
> On Thu, 2020-09-10, Bob Eager wrote:
>> On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 17:05:32 +0000, Niklas Karlsson wrote:
>>
>>> On 2020-09-10, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I played with Minix back in the day. It was very slow and limited. I
>>>> tried it only because I wanted to get some familiarity with unix, and
>>>> it did that, but I can’t imagine anyone trying to so anything useful
>>>> with it.
>>>
>>> I seem to recall firing it up on my Amiga 500 in the early 90s. I did
>>> not enjoy the experience much and soon went back to AmigaOS.
>>
>> I have the forerunner of AmigaDOS (TRIPOS) running on the PDP-11 (well,
>> emulator for now, until I fix the hardware).
>
> As I understand it, only the disk I/O and filesystem were taken from
> TRIPOS: dos.library. And it was a way to cut corners; it was not
> something people /wanted/ to have. I vaguely remember it being hard
> to program against, because it used Pascal strings and pointers were
> to 32-bit words (?)
>
> (Now it sounds as if I'm badmouthing TRIPOS. I'm not; I know almost
> nothing about it.
>

from memory, Amigados was an emergency replacement for the original
plan, implememnted by a professor from Cambridge
>
>
> /Jorgen
>
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