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Re: Compliments to Microsoft ! (Yes, Really!) [message #397959 is a reply to message #397952] Fri, 14 August 2020 18:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Carlos E.R.

On 14/08/2020 22.41, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 20:01:50 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 14/08/2020 19.41, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 07:13:26 -0700, Peter Flass
>>> <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> > On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 12:24:41 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
>>>> > <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> On 14/08/2020 05.41, Questor wrote:
>>>> >>> On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 23:54:37 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> >>>>> On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 17:35:54 -0700, Peter Flass
>>>> >>>>> <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 14:38:28 -0700, Peter Flass
>>>> >>>>>>> <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>>> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 2020-08-12, gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> ...
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> Apparently no one here has had extensive experience in corporate IT or doing a
>>>> >>> lot of end-user support.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> To begin with, Linux (and also Macintosh) do not have the tools necessary to
>>>> >>> remotely support and manage hundreds or thousands of PCs and their access to
>>>> >>> corporate network resources. While they may be subject to the same weaknesses
>>>> >>> as other Microsoft products, at least Windows has those tools.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Salt?
>>>> >>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Also critical are programs from independent software vendors (ISV). An e-mail
>>>> >>> client, a browser, and an office suite are not enough for many employees. Just
>>>> >>> about every organization of sufficent size uses a handful of third-party
>>>> >>> applications; a large company may have dozens. It simply isn't economically
>>>> >>> feasible for most ISVs, which are often small firms serving a niche market, to
>>>> >>> port and support versions for Linux and/or the Macintosh. They simply don't
>>>> >>> have the customers for those platforms to generate the necessary revenue.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On the other hand, the companies needing that software can join and
>>>> >> create their own, cooperatively, for a lesser cost in the long run.
>>>> >
>>>> > There are so many things wrong with this notion that I don't know
>>>> > where to start. First, the optics on it would suck bigtime--here's
>>>> > all these companies which collectively have trillions of dollars in
>>>> > assets ganging up to put this poor little ISV out of business.
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> This is the way things currently work. Someone sets up a nonprofit
>>>> foundation which the big companies contribute to. They don’t get exclusive
>>>> rights to the software, but I assume they have a certain amount of clout
>>>> determining the direction of development and the features. Most major open
>>>> source projects are developed this way, and not by some hacker in his
>>>> parents’ basement.
>>>
>>> And how many of those efforts are aimed at a narrow niche, like, say,
>>> computer aided steno transcription or pricing life insurance?
>>
>> In that case it probably doesn't matter. You will use probably very
>> expensive software produced for very few people. You first buy the
>> software, then tailor the computer (with the suitable OS they tell you)
>> to it.
>
> Now you're starting to see the situation.

No, I'm aware of this situation since ever.

--
Cheers, Carlos.
Re: Compliments to Microsoft ! (Yes, Really!) [message #397960 is a reply to message #397958] Fri, 14 August 2020 18:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 00:00:44 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

> On 14/08/2020 23.38, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>> On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 21:31:13 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
>>> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 14/08/2020 20.01, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> > On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 19:50:43 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
>>>> > <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> On 14/08/2020 19.38, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> >>> On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 08:20:26 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
>>>> >>> wrote:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>> On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 12:24:41 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
>>>> >>>>>> Why the heck with vi? (or emacs)
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> OK with what?
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Linux vi/emacs alternative editors:
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Notepad++
>>>> >>>> Gedit
>>>> >>>> Nano
>>>> >>>> Kate/Kwrite
>>>> >>>> Lime
>>>> >>>> Pico
>>>> >>>> Jed
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> the list goes on, and on, and on...
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Here are the 22 best for coding:
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> https://phoenixnap.com/kb/best-linux-text-editors-for-coding
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>> And note that in the medical field you have government
>>>> >>>>> regulations with which the software has to comply.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Can't help with any of that but I can't see how an
>>>> >>>> editor applies to medical practitioners.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Hey JC, don't want to argue, just providing data.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> And if I as joe random tech support person am dealing with fred random
>>>> >>> customer, do I make him go down that entire list and find that none of
>>>> >>> them are installed before I finally get him to vi?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Then I would guide him to install something else, and spank him hard for
>>>> >> deleting the editors I installed for him.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> If he deleted the editors, he probably deleted way more, and I would
>>>> >> have to go to the site and reinstall the entire system from backup.
>>>> >
>>>> > How was he able to delete the editors? If my employer doesn't want me
>>>> > to delete something on Windows he takes away the privilege to delete
>>>> > it.
>>>>
>>>> If the editors are not there, he deleted them.
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> > And why did you install all those editors to begin with?
>>>>
>>>> I did not say all. Some of them, sure.
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> > And why would you have to go to the site?
>>>>
>>>> Because he tampered with the installation way too much.
>>>
>>> And so you have given several reasons why Linux is not satisfactory in
>>> a corporate environment.
>>
>> Several folks have pointed out to you that linux can be locked
>> down just as much as windows can. The fact that this one
>> system wasn't properly locked down can't be blamed on linux.
>
> Sure. I was just answering to his "what if".
> I did not setup that system, he did :-P

You're the IT guy who put all these unneeded and unwanted editors on
the machine. Why does someone need to have 8 editors?

Oh, and why did you put an unsupported editor on the machine?

You give the impression that you've never actually provided tech
support, just read about it in a book somewhere.

As for medical practitioners, is your editor HIPPA-compliant?
Re: Compliments to Microsoft ! (Yes, Really!) [message #397976 is a reply to message #397960] Sat, 15 August 2020 09:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Carlos E.R.

On 15/08/2020 00.18, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 00:00:44 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 14/08/2020 23.38, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 21:31:13 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
>>>> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > On 14/08/2020 20.01, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> >> On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 19:50:43 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
>>>> >> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> On 14/08/2020 19.38, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> >>>> On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 08:20:26 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
>>>> >>>> wrote:
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 12:24:41 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
>>>> >>>>>>> Why the heck with vi? (or emacs)
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> OK with what?
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Linux vi/emacs alternative editors:
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Notepad++
>>>> >>>>> Gedit
>>>> >>>>> Nano
>>>> >>>>> Kate/Kwrite
>>>> >>>>> Lime
>>>> >>>>> Pico
>>>> >>>>> Jed
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> the list goes on, and on, and on...
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Here are the 22 best for coding:
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> https://phoenixnap.com/kb/best-linux-text-editors-for-coding
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> And note that in the medical field you have government
>>>> >>>>>> regulations with which the software has to comply.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Can't help with any of that but I can't see how an
>>>> >>>>> editor applies to medical practitioners.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Hey JC, don't want to argue, just providing data.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> And if I as joe random tech support person am dealing with fred random
>>>> >>>> customer, do I make him go down that entire list and find that none of
>>>> >>>> them are installed before I finally get him to vi?
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Then I would guide him to install something else, and spank him hard for
>>>> >>> deleting the editors I installed for him.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> If he deleted the editors, he probably deleted way more, and I would
>>>> >>> have to go to the site and reinstall the entire system from backup.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> How was he able to delete the editors? If my employer doesn't want me
>>>> >> to delete something on Windows he takes away the privilege to delete
>>>> >> it.
>>>> >
>>>> > If the editors are not there, he deleted them.
>>>> >
>>>> >>
>>>> >> And why did you install all those editors to begin with?
>>>> >
>>>> > I did not say all. Some of them, sure.
>>>> >
>>>> >>
>>>> >> And why would you have to go to the site?
>>>> >
>>>> > Because he tampered with the installation way too much.
>>>>
>>>> And so you have given several reasons why Linux is not satisfactory in
>>>> a corporate environment.
>>>
>>> Several folks have pointed out to you that linux can be locked
>>> down just as much as windows can. The fact that this one
>>> system wasn't properly locked down can't be blamed on linux.
>>
>> Sure. I was just answering to his "what if".
>> I did not setup that system, he did :-P
>
> You're the IT guy who put all these unneeded and unwanted editors on
> the machine. Why does someone need to have 8 editors?

Who said I put all those eight? I said I put some. I did not say which,
or how many. That was you. And I told you this some sentences up, it is
in the quotes, yet you insist.

>
> Oh, and why did you put an unsupported editor on the machine?

Why would it be unsuported? All I put is supported.

>
> You give the impression that you've never actually provided tech
> support, just read about it in a book somewhere.

This is not exact, but I will not expand.

> As for medical practitioners, is your editor HIPPA-compliant?

I don't work for them.

--
Cheers, Carlos.
Re: Compliments to Microsoft ! (Yes, Really!) [message #397983 is a reply to message #397976] Sat, 15 August 2020 12:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 15:03:35 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

> On 15/08/2020 00.18, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 00:00:44 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
>> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On 14/08/2020 23.38, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> > On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 21:31:13 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
>>>> > <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> On 14/08/2020 20.01, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> >>> On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 19:50:43 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
>>>> >>> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> On 14/08/2020 19.38, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> >>>>> On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 08:20:26 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
>>>> >>>>> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 12:24:41 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
>>>> >>>>>>>> Why the heck with vi? (or emacs)
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> OK with what?
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> Linux vi/emacs alternative editors:
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> Notepad++
>>>> >>>>>> Gedit
>>>> >>>>>> Nano
>>>> >>>>>> Kate/Kwrite
>>>> >>>>>> Lime
>>>> >>>>>> Pico
>>>> >>>>>> Jed
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> the list goes on, and on, and on...
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> Here are the 22 best for coding:
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> https://phoenixnap.com/kb/best-linux-text-editors-for-coding
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> And note that in the medical field you have government
>>>> >>>>>>> regulations with which the software has to comply.
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> Can't help with any of that but I can't see how an
>>>> >>>>>> editor applies to medical practitioners.
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> Hey JC, don't want to argue, just providing data.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> And if I as joe random tech support person am dealing with fred random
>>>> >>>>> customer, do I make him go down that entire list and find that none of
>>>> >>>>> them are installed before I finally get him to vi?
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Then I would guide him to install something else, and spank him hard for
>>>> >>>> deleting the editors I installed for him.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> If he deleted the editors, he probably deleted way more, and I would
>>>> >>>> have to go to the site and reinstall the entire system from backup.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> How was he able to delete the editors? If my employer doesn't want me
>>>> >>> to delete something on Windows he takes away the privilege to delete
>>>> >>> it.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> If the editors are not there, he deleted them.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> And why did you install all those editors to begin with?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I did not say all. Some of them, sure.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> And why would you have to go to the site?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Because he tampered with the installation way too much.
>>>> >
>>>> > And so you have given several reasons why Linux is not satisfactory in
>>>> > a corporate environment.
>>>>
>>>> Several folks have pointed out to you that linux can be locked
>>>> down just as much as windows can. The fact that this one
>>>> system wasn't properly locked down can't be blamed on linux.
>>>
>>> Sure. I was just answering to his "what if".
>>> I did not setup that system, he did :-P
>>
>> You're the IT guy who put all these unneeded and unwanted editors on
>> the machine. Why does someone need to have 8 editors?
>
> Who said I put all those eight? I said I put some. I did not say which,
> or how many. That was you. And I told you this some sentences up, it is
> in the quotes, yet you insist.
>
>>
>> Oh, and why did you put an unsupported editor on the machine?
>
> Why would it be unsuported? All I put is supported.

In what universe is Notepad++ supported under Linux and who supports
it? The developer certainly doesn't.

>> You give the impression that you've never actually provided tech
>> support, just read about it in a book somewhere.
>
> This is not exact, but I will not expand.
>
>> As for medical practitioners, is your editor HIPPA-compliant?
>
> I don't work for them.

Well then maybe you should STFU about what works in that scenario.
Re: Compliments to Microsoft ! (Yes, Really!) [message #397988 is a reply to message #397983] Sat, 15 August 2020 14:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Carlos E.R.

On 15/08/2020 18.09, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 15:03:35 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 15/08/2020 00.18, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 00:00:44 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
>>> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 14/08/2020 23.38, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>> > J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> >> On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 21:31:13 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
>>>> >> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> On 14/08/2020 20.01, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> >>>> On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 19:50:43 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
>>>> >>>> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>> On 14/08/2020 19.38, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 08:20:26 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
>>>> >>>>>> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 12:24:41 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
>>>> >>>>>>>>> Why the heck with vi? (or emacs)
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> OK with what?
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> Linux vi/emacs alternative editors:
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> Notepad++
>>>> >>>>>>> Gedit
>>>> >>>>>>> Nano
>>>> >>>>>>> Kate/Kwrite
>>>> >>>>>>> Lime
>>>> >>>>>>> Pico
>>>> >>>>>>> Jed
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> the list goes on, and on, and on...
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> Here are the 22 best for coding:
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> https://phoenixnap.com/kb/best-linux-text-editors-for-coding
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> And note that in the medical field you have government
>>>> >>>>>>>> regulations with which the software has to comply.
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> Can't help with any of that but I can't see how an
>>>> >>>>>>> editor applies to medical practitioners.
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> Hey JC, don't want to argue, just providing data.
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> And if I as joe random tech support person am dealing with fred random
>>>> >>>>>> customer, do I make him go down that entire list and find that none of
>>>> >>>>>> them are installed before I finally get him to vi?
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Then I would guide him to install something else, and spank him hard for
>>>> >>>>> deleting the editors I installed for him.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> If he deleted the editors, he probably deleted way more, and I would
>>>> >>>>> have to go to the site and reinstall the entire system from backup.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> How was he able to delete the editors? If my employer doesn't want me
>>>> >>>> to delete something on Windows he takes away the privilege to delete
>>>> >>>> it.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> If the editors are not there, he deleted them.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> And why did you install all those editors to begin with?
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> I did not say all. Some of them, sure.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> And why would you have to go to the site?
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Because he tampered with the installation way too much.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> And so you have given several reasons why Linux is not satisfactory in
>>>> >> a corporate environment.
>>>> >
>>>> > Several folks have pointed out to you that linux can be locked
>>>> > down just as much as windows can. The fact that this one
>>>> > system wasn't properly locked down can't be blamed on linux.
>>>>
>>>> Sure. I was just answering to his "what if".
>>>> I did not setup that system, he did :-P
>>>
>>> You're the IT guy who put all these unneeded and unwanted editors on
>>> the machine. Why does someone need to have 8 editors?
>>
>> Who said I put all those eight? I said I put some. I did not say which,
>> or how many. That was you. And I told you this some sentences up, it is
>> in the quotes, yet you insist.
>>
>>>
>>> Oh, and why did you put an unsupported editor on the machine?
>>
>> Why would it be unsuported? All I put is supported.
>
> In what universe is Notepad++ supported under Linux and who supports
> it? The developer certainly doesn't.

What is it you don't understand about "some"? I install some editors?
/I/ did not say which.

I certainly do not ask my users to edit with vi, unless they happen to
like it.


>
>>> You give the impression that you've never actually provided tech
>>> support, just read about it in a book somewhere.
>>
>> This is not exact, but I will not expand.
>>
>>> As for medical practitioners, is your editor HIPPA-compliant?
>>
>> I don't work for them.
>
> Well then maybe you should STFU about what works in that scenario.
>

It is you who talk about that scenario, not me.
Are you trying to start a fight or a flame, perhaps? Trying to make me
say something and then piss me?

--
Cheers, Carlos.
Re: Compliments to Microsoft ! (Yes, Really!) [message #397990 is a reply to message #397988] Sat, 15 August 2020 14:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
What the heck is notepad++? What does it do that notepad doesn’t?

--
Pete
Re: Compliments to Microsoft ! (Yes, Really!) [message #397994 is a reply to message #397990] Sat, 15 August 2020 15:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Carlos E.R.

On 15/08/2020 20.36, Peter Flass wrote:
> What the heck is notepad++? What does it do that notepad doesn’t?

No idea. I assume it has enhanced features.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notepad%2B%2B>

"Notepad++ is a text and source code editor for use with Microsoft
Windows. It supports tabbed editing, which allows working with multiple
open files in a single window. The project's name comes from the C
increment operator.

Notepad++ is distributed as free software. At first the project was
hosted on SourceForge.net, from where it has been downloaded over 28
million times,[2][3] and twice won the SourceForge Community Choice
Award for Best Developer Tool.[4] The project was hosted on TuxFamily
[fr] from 2010 to 2015; since 2015 Notepad++ has been hosted on
GitHub.[5] Notepad++ uses the Scintilla editor component."


Well, it is a source code editor, not a plain editor.


--
Cheers, Carlos.
Re: Compliments to Microsoft ! (Yes, Really!) [message #398000 is a reply to message #397990] Sat, 15 August 2020 16:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dan Espen is currently offline  Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:

> What the heck is notepad++? What does it do that notepad doesn’t?

Seems like that would be a question that would be easy to answer.
Let's see:

Supports more languages
Higher execution speed
smaller program size
Tabbed documents
Spell checker
File comparisons
Better find/replace
Automatic language detection
syntax highlighting
Record/playback macros
display line numbers
Function overview
27 available plugins

Not a full IDE or word processor but
looks pretty good to me.

I don't use either, but I remember, back in my Sun/OS days
we used to exchange files with PC users and the PC users would complain
that they didn't get the file.

I had to look at what they were doing and it turned out Notepad just
seemed to ignore Unix line endings and display the entire file as one
line. The PC user didn't notice the one line and thought they got
nothing.

I just saw a video that claimed that problem and other similar problems
still remain.

So, we used to tell our PC users to avoid Notepad at all costs.
Looks like that's still good advice but now there is a better substitute.

--
Dan Espen
Re: Compliments to Microsoft ! (Yes, Really!) [message #398001 is a reply to message #398000] Sat, 15 August 2020 17:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Kerr-Mudd,John

On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 20:37:14 GMT, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:

> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>> What the heck is notepad++? What does it do that notepad doesn’t?
Notepad is/was very basic;

I use Notepad2. It does syntax highlighting, Search/Replace, accommodates
Unix/Mac line endings, handles UTF8. No tabbed documents. No spellcheck

>
> Seems like that would be a question that would be easy to answer.
> Let's see:
>
> Supports more languages
> Higher execution speed
> smaller program size
> Tabbed documents
> Spell checker
> File comparisons
> Better find/replace
> Automatic language detection
> syntax highlighting
> Record/playback macros
> display line numbers
> Function overview
> 27 available plugins
>
> Not a full IDE or word processor but
> looks pretty good to me.
>
> I don't use either, but I remember, back in my Sun/OS days
> we used to exchange files with PC users and the PC users would complain
> that they didn't get the file.
>
> I had to look at what they were doing and it turned out Notepad just
> seemed to ignore Unix line endings and display the entire file as one
> line. The PC user didn't notice the one line and thought they got
> nothing.
>
> I just saw a video that claimed that problem and other similar problems
> still remain.
>
> So, we used to tell our PC users to avoid Notepad at all costs.
> Looks like that's still good advice but now there is a better substitute.
>



--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Re: Compliments to Microsoft ! (Yes, Really!) [message #398002 is a reply to message #397988] Sat, 15 August 2020 17:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 20:15:51 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

> On 15/08/2020 18.09, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 15:03:35 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
>> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On 15/08/2020 00.18, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 00:00:44 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
>>>> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > On 14/08/2020 23.38, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>> >> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> >>> On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 21:31:13 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
>>>> >>> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> On 14/08/2020 20.01, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> >>>>> On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 19:50:43 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
>>>> >>>>> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> On 14/08/2020 19.38, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 08:20:26 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
>>>> >>>>>>> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 12:24:41 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Why the heck with vi? (or emacs)
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>> OK with what?
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> Linux vi/emacs alternative editors:
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> Notepad++
>>>> >>>>>>>> Gedit
>>>> >>>>>>>> Nano
>>>> >>>>>>>> Kate/Kwrite
>>>> >>>>>>>> Lime
>>>> >>>>>>>> Pico
>>>> >>>>>>>> Jed
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> the list goes on, and on, and on...
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> Here are the 22 best for coding:
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> https://phoenixnap.com/kb/best-linux-text-editors-for-coding
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>> And note that in the medical field you have government
>>>> >>>>>>>>> regulations with which the software has to comply.
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> Can't help with any of that but I can't see how an
>>>> >>>>>>>> editor applies to medical practitioners.
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> Hey JC, don't want to argue, just providing data.
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> And if I as joe random tech support person am dealing with fred random
>>>> >>>>>>> customer, do I make him go down that entire list and find that none of
>>>> >>>>>>> them are installed before I finally get him to vi?
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> Then I would guide him to install something else, and spank him hard for
>>>> >>>>>> deleting the editors I installed for him.
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> If he deleted the editors, he probably deleted way more, and I would
>>>> >>>>>> have to go to the site and reinstall the entire system from backup.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> How was he able to delete the editors? If my employer doesn't want me
>>>> >>>>> to delete something on Windows he takes away the privilege to delete
>>>> >>>>> it.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> If the editors are not there, he deleted them.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> And why did you install all those editors to begin with?
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> I did not say all. Some of them, sure.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> And why would you have to go to the site?
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Because he tampered with the installation way too much.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> And so you have given several reasons why Linux is not satisfactory in
>>>> >>> a corporate environment.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Several folks have pointed out to you that linux can be locked
>>>> >> down just as much as windows can. The fact that this one
>>>> >> system wasn't properly locked down can't be blamed on linux.
>>>> >
>>>> > Sure. I was just answering to his "what if".
>>>> > I did not setup that system, he did :-P
>>>>
>>>> You're the IT guy who put all these unneeded and unwanted editors on
>>>> the machine. Why does someone need to have 8 editors?
>>>
>>> Who said I put all those eight? I said I put some. I did not say which,
>>> or how many. That was you. And I told you this some sentences up, it is
>>> in the quotes, yet you insist.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Oh, and why did you put an unsupported editor on the machine?
>>>
>>> Why would it be unsuported? All I put is supported.
>>
>> In what universe is Notepad++ supported under Linux and who supports
>> it? The developer certainly doesn't.
>
> What is it you don't understand about "some"? I install some editors?
> /I/ did not say which.

Notepad++ was first on your list and you said that all you put were
supported.

Really, you can't even keep your own argument straight.

> I certainly do not ask my users to edit with vi, unless they happen to
> like it.

Well touch you.

>>>> You give the impression that you've never actually provided tech
>>>> support, just read about it in a book somewhere.
>>>
>>> This is not exact, but I will not expand.
>>>
>>>> As for medical practitioners, is your editor HIPPA-compliant?
>>>
>>> I don't work for them.
>>
>> Well then maybe you should STFU about what works in that scenario.
>>
>
> It is you who talk about that scenario, not me.
> Are you trying to start a fight or a flame, perhaps? Trying to make me
> say something and then piss me?

<plonk>
Re: Compliments to Microsoft ! (Yes, Really!) [message #398003 is a reply to message #398000] Sat, 15 August 2020 18:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 16:37:14 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>> What the heck is notepad++? What does it do that notepad doesn’t?
>
> Seems like that would be a question that would be easy to answer.
> Let's see:
>
> Supports more languages
> Higher execution speed
> smaller program size
> Tabbed documents
> Spell checker
> File comparisons
> Better find/replace
> Automatic language detection
> syntax highlighting
> Record/playback macros
> display line numbers
> Function overview
> 27 available plugins
>
> Not a full IDE or word processor but
> looks pretty good to me.
>
> I don't use either, but I remember, back in my Sun/OS days
> we used to exchange files with PC users and the PC users would complain
> that they didn't get the file.
>
> I had to look at what they were doing and it turned out Notepad just
> seemed to ignore Unix line endings and display the entire file as one
> line. The PC user didn't notice the one line and thought they got
> nothing.
>
> I just saw a video that claimed that problem and other similar problems
> still remain.
>
> So, we used to tell our PC users to avoid Notepad at all costs.
> Looks like that's still good advice but now there is a better substitute.

You've hit on a lot of the benefits of notepad++, but one you missed
is that it supports regular expressions in the find and replace
functions.

It also remembers its state on exit. Open it and it comes back up
with the same files open as when it was closed, even if they were
never explictly saved after being created.

It also allows line endings to be specified as CR-LF, CR, or LF and
supports a wide range of encodings.

One of the very low priority items on my to-do list is to beat it into
a state where it can handle APL gracefully--there's "add your own
language support" built in.
Re: Compliments to Microsoft ! (Yes, Really!) [message #398005 is a reply to message #398002] Sat, 15 August 2020 18:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dan Espen is currently offline  Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:

> On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 20:15:51 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 15/08/2020 18.09, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 15:03:35 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
>>> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 15/08/2020 00.18, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> > On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 00:00:44 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
>>>> > <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> On 14/08/2020 23.38, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>> >>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> >>>> On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 21:31:13 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
>>>> >>>> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>> On 14/08/2020 20.01, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 19:50:43 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
>>>> >>>>>> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> On 14/08/2020 19.38, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 08:20:26 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
>>>> >>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 12:24:41 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Why the heck with vi? (or emacs)
>>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>>> OK with what?
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>> Linux vi/emacs alternative editors:
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>> Notepad++
>>>> >>>>>>>>> Gedit
>>>> >>>>>>>>> Nano
>>>> >>>>>>>>> Kate/Kwrite
>>>> >>>>>>>>> Lime
>>>> >>>>>>>>> Pico
>>>> >>>>>>>>> Jed
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>> the list goes on, and on, and on...
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>> Here are the 22 best for coding:
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>> https://phoenixnap.com/kb/best-linux-text-editors-for-coding
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>>> And note that in the medical field you have government
>>>> >>>>>>>>>> regulations with which the software has to comply.
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>> Can't help with any of that but I can't see how an
>>>> >>>>>>>>> editor applies to medical practitioners.
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hey JC, don't want to argue, just providing data.
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> And if I as joe random tech support person am dealing with fred random
>>>> >>>>>>>> customer, do I make him go down that entire list and find that none of
>>>> >>>>>>>> them are installed before I finally get him to vi?
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> Then I would guide him to install something else, and spank him hard for
>>>> >>>>>>> deleting the editors I installed for him.
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> If he deleted the editors, he probably deleted way more, and I would
>>>> >>>>>>> have to go to the site and reinstall the entire system from backup.
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> How was he able to delete the editors? If my employer doesn't want me
>>>> >>>>>> to delete something on Windows he takes away the privilege to delete
>>>> >>>>>> it.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> If the editors are not there, he deleted them.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> And why did you install all those editors to begin with?
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> I did not say all. Some of them, sure.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> And why would you have to go to the site?
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Because he tampered with the installation way too much.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> And so you have given several reasons why Linux is not satisfactory in
>>>> >>>> a corporate environment.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Several folks have pointed out to you that linux can be locked
>>>> >>> down just as much as windows can. The fact that this one
>>>> >>> system wasn't properly locked down can't be blamed on linux.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Sure. I was just answering to his "what if".
>>>> >> I did not setup that system, he did :-P
>>>> >
>>>> > You're the IT guy who put all these unneeded and unwanted editors on
>>>> > the machine. Why does someone need to have 8 editors?
>>>>
>>>> Who said I put all those eight? I said I put some. I did not say which,
>>>> or how many. That was you. And I told you this some sentences up, it is
>>>> in the quotes, yet you insist.
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> > Oh, and why did you put an unsupported editor on the machine?
>>>>
>>>> Why would it be unsuported? All I put is supported.
>>>
>>> In what universe is Notepad++ supported under Linux and who supports
>>> it? The developer certainly doesn't.
>>
>> What is it you don't understand about "some"? I install some editors?
>> /I/ did not say which.
>
> Notepad++ was first on your list and you said that all you put were
> supported.
>
> Really, you can't even keep your own argument straight.

Speaking of keeping things straight, I made the list
but did not make the comment you just replied to.

By the way, being first on my list had no special significance.
I just made up a quick list in response to the question about
what other editor a Linux user might be using.

>> I certainly do not ask my users to edit with vi, unless they happen to
>> like it.
>
> Well touch you.

Touch you?

>>>> > You give the impression that you've never actually provided tech
>>>> > support, just read about it in a book somewhere.
>>>>
>>>> This is not exact, but I will not expand.
>>>>
>>>> > As for medical practitioners, is your editor HIPPA-compliant?
>>>>
>>>> I don't work for them.
>>>
>>> Well then maybe you should STFU about what works in that scenario.
>>>
>>
>> It is you who talk about that scenario, not me.
>> Are you trying to start a fight or a flame, perhaps? Trying to make me
>> say something and then piss me?
>
> <plonk>

Wow.

Someone got up...

I suppose I'm next.

Hey this isolation is getting to all of us.

I hadn't been out of the house for a couple of weeks.
Today I did the grocery and liquor stores.
I had the mask on but I was smiling underneath.
It's tough living life in complete isolation.
Hope you are not like me and have some people to keep you company.

--
Dan Espen
Re: Compliments to Microsoft ! (Yes, Really!) [message #398006 is a reply to message #398003] Sat, 15 August 2020 18:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dan Espen is currently offline  Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:

> On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 16:37:14 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>>
>>> What the heck is notepad++? What does it do that notepad doesn’t?
>>
>> Seems like that would be a question that would be easy to answer.
>> Let's see:
>>
>> Supports more languages
>> Higher execution speed
>> smaller program size
>> Tabbed documents
>> Spell checker
>> File comparisons
>> Better find/replace
>> Automatic language detection
>> syntax highlighting
>> Record/playback macros
>> display line numbers
>> Function overview
>> 27 available plugins
>>
>> Not a full IDE or word processor but
>> looks pretty good to me.
>>
>> I don't use either, but I remember, back in my Sun/OS days
>> we used to exchange files with PC users and the PC users would complain
>> that they didn't get the file.
>>
>> I had to look at what they were doing and it turned out Notepad just
>> seemed to ignore Unix line endings and display the entire file as one
>> line. The PC user didn't notice the one line and thought they got
>> nothing.
>>
>> I just saw a video that claimed that problem and other similar problems
>> still remain.
>>
>> So, we used to tell our PC users to avoid Notepad at all costs.
>> Looks like that's still good advice but now there is a better substitute.
>
> You've hit on a lot of the benefits of notepad++, but one you missed
> is that it supports regular expressions in the find and replace
> functions.

The stuff I read wasn't specific about why it was a better find/replace
but RE's in find/replace is a big win.

I wonder if it also does what Emacs does, when you replace a word by
another word, it carries over the capitalization of the original
word into the replacement word. First time I saw Emacs do that
I was impressed as hell.

> It also remembers its state on exit. Open it and it comes back up
> with the same files open as when it was closed, even if they were
> never explictly saved after being created.

I did read about that but decided I couldn't describe it
in a couple of words like the other items.

> It also allows line endings to be specified as CR-LF, CR, or LF and
> supports a wide range of encodings.
>
> One of the very low priority items on my to-do list is to beat it into
> a state where it can handle APL gracefully--there's "add your own
> language support" built in.

That's cool too.

I was tempted to add to the list that it's open source,
so if there's something you can't just do externally talented
users can just dive in.

I was able to add support to Emacs for ISPF panels, CLISTS,
HLASM. It's nice when you can twist the dials yourself.

--
Dan Espen
Re: Compliments to Microsoft ! (Yes, Really!) [message #398009 is a reply to message #398005] Sat, 15 August 2020 18:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 18:36:34 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
wrote:

> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 20:15:51 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
>> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On 15/08/2020 18.09, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 15:03:35 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
>>>> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > On 15/08/2020 00.18, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> >> On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 00:00:44 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
>>>> >> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> On 14/08/2020 23.38, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>> >>>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> >>>>> On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 21:31:13 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
>>>> >>>>> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> On 14/08/2020 20.01, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 19:50:43 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
>>>> >>>>>>> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> On 14/08/2020 19.38, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 08:20:26 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
>>>> >>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 12:24:41 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Why the heck with vi? (or emacs)
>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> OK with what?
>>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Linux vi/emacs alternative editors:
>>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Notepad++
>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Gedit
>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Nano
>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Kate/Kwrite
>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Lime
>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Pico
>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Jed
>>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>>> the list goes on, and on, and on...
>>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Here are the 22 best for coding:
>>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>>> https://phoenixnap.com/kb/best-linux-text-editors-for-coding
>>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> And note that in the medical field you have government
>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> regulations with which the software has to comply.
>>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Can't help with any of that but I can't see how an
>>>> >>>>>>>>>> editor applies to medical practitioners.
>>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hey JC, don't want to argue, just providing data.
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>> And if I as joe random tech support person am dealing with fred random
>>>> >>>>>>>>> customer, do I make him go down that entire list and find that none of
>>>> >>>>>>>>> them are installed before I finally get him to vi?
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> Then I would guide him to install something else, and spank him hard for
>>>> >>>>>>>> deleting the editors I installed for him.
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> If he deleted the editors, he probably deleted way more, and I would
>>>> >>>>>>>> have to go to the site and reinstall the entire system from backup.
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> How was he able to delete the editors? If my employer doesn't want me
>>>> >>>>>>> to delete something on Windows he takes away the privilege to delete
>>>> >>>>>>> it.
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> If the editors are not there, he deleted them.
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> And why did you install all those editors to begin with?
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> I did not say all. Some of them, sure.
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> And why would you have to go to the site?
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> Because he tampered with the installation way too much.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> And so you have given several reasons why Linux is not satisfactory in
>>>> >>>>> a corporate environment.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Several folks have pointed out to you that linux can be locked
>>>> >>>> down just as much as windows can. The fact that this one
>>>> >>>> system wasn't properly locked down can't be blamed on linux.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Sure. I was just answering to his "what if".
>>>> >>> I did not setup that system, he did :-P
>>>> >>
>>>> >> You're the IT guy who put all these unneeded and unwanted editors on
>>>> >> the machine. Why does someone need to have 8 editors?
>>>> >
>>>> > Who said I put all those eight? I said I put some. I did not say which,
>>>> > or how many. That was you. And I told you this some sentences up, it is
>>>> > in the quotes, yet you insist.
>>>> >
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Oh, and why did you put an unsupported editor on the machine?
>>>> >
>>>> > Why would it be unsuported? All I put is supported.
>>>>
>>>> In what universe is Notepad++ supported under Linux and who supports
>>>> it? The developer certainly doesn't.
>>>
>>> What is it you don't understand about "some"? I install some editors?
>>> /I/ did not say which.
>>
>> Notepad++ was first on your list and you said that all you put were
>> supported.
>>
>> Really, you can't even keep your own argument straight.
>
> Speaking of keeping things straight, I made the list
> but did not make the comment you just replied to.
>
> By the way, being first on my list had no special significance.
> I just made up a quick list in response to the question about
> what other editor a Linux user might be using.
>
>>> I certainly do not ask my users to edit with vi, unless they happen to
>>> like it.
>>
>> Well touch you.
>
> Touch you?
>
>>>> >> You give the impression that you've never actually provided tech
>>>> >> support, just read about it in a book somewhere.
>>>> >
>>>> > This is not exact, but I will not expand.
>>>> >
>>>> >> As for medical practitioners, is your editor HIPPA-compliant?
>>>> >
>>>> > I don't work for them.
>>>>
>>>> Well then maybe you should STFU about what works in that scenario.
>>>>
>>>
>>> It is you who talk about that scenario, not me.
>>> Are you trying to start a fight or a flame, perhaps? Trying to make me
>>> say something and then piss me?
>>
>> <plonk>
>
> Wow.
>
> Someone got up...
>
> I suppose I'm next.
>
> Hey this isolation is getting to all of us.
>
> I hadn't been out of the house for a couple of weeks.
> Today I did the grocery and liquor stores.
> I had the mask on but I was smiling underneath.
> It's tough living life in complete isolation.
> Hope you are not like me and have some people to keep you company.

Just when we have meetings at work.
Re: Compliments to Microsoft ! (Yes, Really!) [message #398014 is a reply to message #398009] Sat, 15 August 2020 21:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dan Espen is currently offline  Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:

> On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 18:36:34 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hey this isolation is getting to all of us.
>>
>> I hadn't been out of the house for a couple of weeks.
>> Today I did the grocery and liquor stores.
>> I had the mask on but I was smiling underneath.
>> It's tough living life in complete isolation.
>> Hope you are not like me and have some people to keep you company.
>
> Just when we have meetings at work.

Geez, of course I no longer work, but I had a reputation
for almost never showing up for meetings. My last 5 years or so,
I became more adamant and just plain refused.

I had one boss I really couldn't stand and she insisted
on delving into everyone's business. When she started
challenging me on the way I was managing my projects I went to
2 different meetings where she attempted to prove she was right
by inviting so called experts. Funny thing was
her experts had known me for years always went to me
for direction on how to do what she was questiojng.
Both times I shot her
down and then refused to ever go to a meeting with
her again. Eventually I went to her boss and got
myself moved out her group to someone that let
her charges manage their own projects. That was the
point where I swore off meetings entirely.

I felt sorry for the rest of the people in the group
because they were afraid to challenge her and they
were my friends.

So, I had a history with meetings.
Hope you enjoy yours and get on better than I did.

I have another meeting story.

This one was while I was still a consultant.
A big department meeting with maybe 20 people
reviewing a design for a new system.
But these clowns idea of reviewing a design was to
fix spelling errors move paragraphs and the like.
So, we weren't into the actual design yet,
but they spent like a half hour
capitalizing words and the like page by page. So, I interrupt and
ask them to forget about the spelling because there
were some serious design issues I wanted to address
a dozen pages ahead.

The next few pages and a bunch more spelling corrections
I get up and walk out. I go back to my office
and send the whole group an long email explainging
why the entire approach was wrong and they were
designing something useless.

So, they ended up with a document with probably only a few
spelling errors left that got put aside and never implemented.

--
Dan Espen
Re: Compliments to Microsoft ! (Yes, Really!) [message #398033 is a reply to message #398002] Sun, 16 August 2020 07:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Carlos E.R.

On 15/08/2020 23.41, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 20:15:51 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 15/08/2020 18.09, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 15:03:35 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
>>> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 15/08/2020 00.18, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> > On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 00:00:44 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
>>>> > <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> On 14/08/2020 23.38, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>> >>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> >>>> On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 21:31:13 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
>>>> >>>> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>> On 14/08/2020 20.01, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 19:50:43 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
>>>> >>>>>> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> On 14/08/2020 19.38, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 08:20:26 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
>>>> >>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 12:24:41 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Why the heck with vi? (or emacs)
>>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>>> OK with what?
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>> Linux vi/emacs alternative editors:
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>> Notepad++
>>>> >>>>>>>>> Gedit
>>>> >>>>>>>>> Nano
>>>> >>>>>>>>> Kate/Kwrite
>>>> >>>>>>>>> Lime
>>>> >>>>>>>>> Pico
>>>> >>>>>>>>> Jed
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>> the list goes on, and on, and on...
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>> Here are the 22 best for coding:
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>> https://phoenixnap.com/kb/best-linux-text-editors-for-coding
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>>> And note that in the medical field you have government
>>>> >>>>>>>>>> regulations with which the software has to comply.
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>> Can't help with any of that but I can't see how an
>>>> >>>>>>>>> editor applies to medical practitioners.
>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hey JC, don't want to argue, just providing data.
>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>>> And if I as joe random tech support person am dealing with fred random
>>>> >>>>>>>> customer, do I make him go down that entire list and find that none of
>>>> >>>>>>>> them are installed before I finally get him to vi?
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> Then I would guide him to install something else, and spank him hard for
>>>> >>>>>>> deleting the editors I installed for him.
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> If he deleted the editors, he probably deleted way more, and I would
>>>> >>>>>>> have to go to the site and reinstall the entire system from backup.
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> How was he able to delete the editors? If my employer doesn't want me
>>>> >>>>>> to delete something on Windows he takes away the privilege to delete
>>>> >>>>>> it.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> If the editors are not there, he deleted them.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> And why did you install all those editors to begin with?
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> I did not say all. Some of them, sure.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> And why would you have to go to the site?
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Because he tampered with the installation way too much.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> And so you have given several reasons why Linux is not satisfactory in
>>>> >>>> a corporate environment.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Several folks have pointed out to you that linux can be locked
>>>> >>> down just as much as windows can. The fact that this one
>>>> >>> system wasn't properly locked down can't be blamed on linux.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Sure. I was just answering to his "what if".
>>>> >> I did not setup that system, he did :-P
>>>> >
>>>> > You're the IT guy who put all these unneeded and unwanted editors on
>>>> > the machine. Why does someone need to have 8 editors?
>>>>
>>>> Who said I put all those eight? I said I put some. I did not say which,
>>>> or how many. That was you. And I told you this some sentences up, it is
>>>> in the quotes, yet you insist.
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> > Oh, and why did you put an unsupported editor on the machine?
>>>>
>>>> Why would it be unsuported? All I put is supported.
>>>
>>> In what universe is Notepad++ supported under Linux and who supports
>>> it? The developer certainly doesn't.
>>
>> What is it you don't understand about "some"? I install some editors?
>> /I/ did not say which.
>
> Notepad++ was first on your list and you said that all you put were
> supported.

It is not MY list. Learn how to read.

>
> Really, you can't even keep your own argument straight.

No you trap people into saying what you want, and then blame them for
not agreeing.

>
>> I certainly do not ask my users to edit with vi, unless they happen to
>> like it.
>
> Well touch you.
>
>>>> > You give the impression that you've never actually provided tech
>>>> > support, just read about it in a book somewhere.
>>>>
>>>> This is not exact, but I will not expand.
>>>>
>>>> > As for medical practitioners, is your editor HIPPA-compliant?
>>>>
>>>> I don't work for them.
>>>
>>> Well then maybe you should STFU about what works in that scenario.
>>>
>>
>> It is you who talk about that scenario, not me.
>> Are you trying to start a fight or a flame, perhaps? Trying to make me
>> say something and then piss me?
>
> <plonk>

Plonk.


--
Cheers, Carlos.
Re: Compliments to Microsoft ! (Yes, Really!) [message #398052 is a reply to message #398014] Sun, 16 August 2020 18:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 18:36:34 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Hey this isolation is getting to all of us.
>>>
>>> I hadn't been out of the house for a couple of weeks.
>>> Today I did the grocery and liquor stores.
>>> I had the mask on but I was smiling underneath.
>>> It's tough living life in complete isolation.
>>> Hope you are not like me and have some people to keep you company.
>>
>> Just when we have meetings at work.
>
> Geez, of course I no longer work, but I had a reputation
> for almost never showing up for meetings. My last 5 years or so,
> I became more adamant and just plain refused.
>
> I had one boss I really couldn't stand and she insisted
> on delving into everyone's business. When she started
> challenging me on the way I was managing my projects I went to
> 2 different meetings where she attempted to prove she was right
> by inviting so called experts. Funny thing was
> her experts had known me for years always went to me
> for direction on how to do what she was questiojng.
> Both times I shot her
> down and then refused to ever go to a meeting with
> her again. Eventually I went to her boss and got
> myself moved out her group to someone that let
> her charges manage their own projects. That was the
> point where I swore off meetings entirely.
>
> I felt sorry for the rest of the people in the group
> because they were afraid to challenge her and they
> were my friends.
>
> So, I had a history with meetings.
> Hope you enjoy yours and get on better than I did.
>
> I have another meeting story.
>
> This one was while I was still a consultant.
> A big department meeting with maybe 20 people
> reviewing a design for a new system.
> But these clowns idea of reviewing a design was to
> fix spelling errors move paragraphs and the like.
> So, we weren't into the actual design yet,
> but they spent like a half hour
> capitalizing words and the like page by page. So, I interrupt and
> ask them to forget about the spelling because there
> were some serious design issues I wanted to address
> a dozen pages ahead.
>
> The next few pages and a bunch more spelling corrections
> I get up and walk out. I go back to my office
> and send the whole group an long email explainging
> why the entire approach was wrong and they were
> designing something useless.

Why the heck would you do this in a meeting? Of course there are no
secretaries any more, but it used to be possible to give this to a good
secretary and ask “could you go over this and fix spelling and grammar.”
and expect to get it back all cleaned up in an hour or so.

--
Pete
Re: Compliments to Microsoft ! (Yes, Really!) [message #398053 is a reply to message #398052] Sun, 16 August 2020 19:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Sun, 16 Aug 2020 15:56:26 -0700, Peter Flass
<peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 18:36:34 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Hey this isolation is getting to all of us.
>>>>
>>>> I hadn't been out of the house for a couple of weeks.
>>>> Today I did the grocery and liquor stores.
>>>> I had the mask on but I was smiling underneath.
>>>> It's tough living life in complete isolation.
>>>> Hope you are not like me and have some people to keep you company.
>>>
>>> Just when we have meetings at work.
>>
>> Geez, of course I no longer work, but I had a reputation
>> for almost never showing up for meetings. My last 5 years or so,
>> I became more adamant and just plain refused.
>>
>> I had one boss I really couldn't stand and she insisted
>> on delving into everyone's business. When she started
>> challenging me on the way I was managing my projects I went to
>> 2 different meetings where she attempted to prove she was right
>> by inviting so called experts. Funny thing was
>> her experts had known me for years always went to me
>> for direction on how to do what she was questiojng.
>> Both times I shot her
>> down and then refused to ever go to a meeting with
>> her again. Eventually I went to her boss and got
>> myself moved out her group to someone that let
>> her charges manage their own projects. That was the
>> point where I swore off meetings entirely.
>>
>> I felt sorry for the rest of the people in the group
>> because they were afraid to challenge her and they
>> were my friends.
>>
>> So, I had a history with meetings.
>> Hope you enjoy yours and get on better than I did.
>>
>> I have another meeting story.
>>
>> This one was while I was still a consultant.
>> A big department meeting with maybe 20 people
>> reviewing a design for a new system.
>> But these clowns idea of reviewing a design was to
>> fix spelling errors move paragraphs and the like.
>> So, we weren't into the actual design yet,
>> but they spent like a half hour
>> capitalizing words and the like page by page. So, I interrupt and
>> ask them to forget about the spelling because there
>> were some serious design issues I wanted to address
>> a dozen pages ahead.
>>
>> The next few pages and a bunch more spelling corrections
>> I get up and walk out. I go back to my office
>> and send the whole group an long email explainging
>> why the entire approach was wrong and they were
>> designing something useless.
>
> Why the heck would you do this in a meeting? Of course there are no
> secretaries any more, but it used to be possible to give this to a good
> secretary and ask “could you go over this and fix spelling and grammar.”
> and expect to get it back all cleaned up in an hour or so.

Some managers are just stupid about certain things. I remember a huge
furor over whether to refer to something as a "hovercraft" or an "air
cushion vehicle" with one manager arguing that "hovercraft" was
British so an American company shouldn't use it.

That was the same place where my supervisor would periodically look
down at me, shake his head, and say "this place _sucks_".

In 1980 they were phasing out that product line in 5 years. They're
still making it.
Re: Compliments to Microsoft ! (Yes, Really!) [message #398054 is a reply to message #398052] Sun, 16 August 2020 19:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dan Espen is currently offline  Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:

> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> The next few pages and a bunch more spelling corrections
>> I get up and walk out. I go back to my office
>> and send the whole group an long email explainging
>> why the entire approach was wrong and they were
>> designing something useless.
>
> Why the heck would you do this in a meeting? Of course there are no
> secretaries any more, but it used to be possible to give this to a good
> secretary and ask “could you go over this and fix spelling and grammar.”
> and expect to get it back all cleaned up in an hour or so.

No secretaries at that time.
Well, a few levels up in management and he'd have a personal secretary.
Not that I'd expect that would have satisfied these people.
The front of the document had things like definition of terms,
expected audience, a bunch of boiler plate.

The truth was, there were people that knew what they were doing
surrounded by a host of hangers on that had no clue.
But they sure could debate for hours about whether it was MVS or
z/OS and whether SunOS needed a trademark symbol.

Meetings have a momentum all their own.
Someone suggests we need to review the document a page at a time
and that's damn well what we're all going to do.

Oh, geez, I must sound like an old cynic.

--
Dan Espen
Re: Compliments to Microsoft ! (Yes, Really!) [message #398055 is a reply to message #398054] Sun, 16 August 2020 20:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Sun, 16 Aug 2020 19:23:18 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> The next few pages and a bunch more spelling corrections
>>> I get up and walk out. I go back to my office
>>> and send the whole group an long email explainging
>>> why the entire approach was wrong and they were
>>> designing something useless.
>>
>> Why the heck would you do this in a meeting? Of course there are no
>> secretaries any more, but it used to be possible to give this to a good
>> secretary and ask “could you go over this and fix spelling and grammar.”
>> and expect to get it back all cleaned up in an hour or so.
>
> No secretaries at that time.
> Well, a few levels up in management and he'd have a personal secretary.
> Not that I'd expect that would have satisfied these people.
> The front of the document had things like definition of terms,
> expected audience, a bunch of boiler plate.
>
> The truth was, there were people that knew what they were doing
> surrounded by a host of hangers on that had no clue.
> But they sure could debate for hours about whether it was MVS or
> z/OS and whether SunOS needed a trademark symbol.

Were any of them lawyers? If not then they should have left that sort
of thing to the professionals.

> Meetings have a momentum all their own.
> Someone suggests we need to review the document a page at a time
> and that's damn well what we're all going to do.
>
> Oh, geez, I must sound like an old cynic.

Nahh, just somebody who, like me, has been in one too many bullshit
meetings.

My faves were the ones at the court reporting outfit, where there
would be a daily meeting that started at 1 and lasted until 4 in which
we all sat around watching the owner of the company talk on the phone.
I finally convinced her to change those to one a week. One a month
was too much to hope for. She's also the one who woke up one Saturday
morning having a panic attack, called an immediate meeting, and sent
the cops looking for people who didn't show up. So when we finally
got there, it was another four hours of watching her talk on the
phone.
Re: Compliments to Microsoft ! (Yes, Really!) [message #398058 is a reply to message #398055] Sun, 16 August 2020 21:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dan Espen is currently offline  Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:

> On Sun, 16 Aug 2020 19:23:18 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>>
>>> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The next few pages and a bunch more spelling corrections
>>>> I get up and walk out. I go back to my office
>>>> and send the whole group an long email explainging
>>>> why the entire approach was wrong and they were
>>>> designing something useless.
>>>
>>> Why the heck would you do this in a meeting? Of course there are no
>>> secretaries any more, but it used to be possible to give this to a good
>>> secretary and ask “could you go over this and fix spelling and grammar.”
>>> and expect to get it back all cleaned up in an hour or so.
>>
>> No secretaries at that time.
>> Well, a few levels up in management and he'd have a personal secretary.
>> Not that I'd expect that would have satisfied these people.
>> The front of the document had things like definition of terms,
>> expected audience, a bunch of boiler plate.
>>
>> The truth was, there were people that knew what they were doing
>> surrounded by a host of hangers on that had no clue.
>> But they sure could debate for hours about whether it was MVS or
>> z/OS and whether SunOS needed a trademark symbol.
>
> Were any of them lawyers? If not then they should have left that sort
> of thing to the professionals.
>
>> Meetings have a momentum all their own.
>> Someone suggests we need to review the document a page at a time
>> and that's damn well what we're all going to do.
>>
>> Oh, geez, I must sound like an old cynic.
>
> Nahh, just somebody who, like me, has been in one too many bullshit
> meetings.
>
> My faves were the ones at the court reporting outfit, where there
> would be a daily meeting that started at 1 and lasted until 4 in which
> we all sat around watching the owner of the company talk on the phone.
> I finally convinced her to change those to one a week. One a month
> was too much to hope for. She's also the one who woke up one Saturday
> morning having a panic attack, called an immediate meeting, and sent
> the cops looking for people who didn't show up. So when we finally
> got there, it was another four hours of watching her talk on the
> phone.

See, this is why I hang out on these discussion groups.
That's so funny.

I don't know for sure what I would have done if I was at that place but
it wouldn't have been pretty.

Daily meetings? That's my definition of hell.
That control freak I was talking about was put in charge of our group
and changed our status meetings from monthly to weekly. I think I made
3 weeks before I bailed.

We had one member in that group who was carrying a really heavy work
load. She'd been in that position for 20 years. Her project used
to have 10 people and she ended up handling the whole thing on her own.
The new boss really bore down on her in particular.
She was reviewing (in the meeting)
every little task she had. And in one week there were dozens of them.
I felt so sorry for her. Especially when I decided, F this I'm out of
here. I was really fortunate I'd known the new bosses boss and the
next boss up the line for a long, long time.

So it's funny about that control freak.
I stopped going to her meetings and soon after I went and sat down with
her boss and told him what I thought. About 6 months went by before
her boss got back to me and gave me a new boss to report to.
During that time I saw her once when she gave me a salary review
and raise. (Reasonable raise.) She never said a word to me about me
not showing up for status meetings. Maybe she got read the riot act
but she still abused everyone else.

Well, this stuff is not exactly computer folklore. I guess
computer department folklore is close enough.

--
Dan Espen
Re: Compliments to Microsoft ! (Yes, Really!) [message #398059 is a reply to message #398058] Sun, 16 August 2020 22:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Sun, 16 Aug 2020 21:04:08 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
wrote:

> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Sun, 16 Aug 2020 19:23:18 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > The next few pages and a bunch more spelling corrections
>>>> > I get up and walk out. I go back to my office
>>>> > and send the whole group an long email explainging
>>>> > why the entire approach was wrong and they were
>>>> > designing something useless.
>>>>
>>>> Why the heck would you do this in a meeting? Of course there are no
>>>> secretaries any more, but it used to be possible to give this to a good
>>>> secretary and ask “could you go over this and fix spelling and grammar.”
>>>> and expect to get it back all cleaned up in an hour or so.
>>>
>>> No secretaries at that time.
>>> Well, a few levels up in management and he'd have a personal secretary.
>>> Not that I'd expect that would have satisfied these people.
>>> The front of the document had things like definition of terms,
>>> expected audience, a bunch of boiler plate.
>>>
>>> The truth was, there were people that knew what they were doing
>>> surrounded by a host of hangers on that had no clue.
>>> But they sure could debate for hours about whether it was MVS or
>>> z/OS and whether SunOS needed a trademark symbol.
>>
>> Were any of them lawyers? If not then they should have left that sort
>> of thing to the professionals.
>>
>>> Meetings have a momentum all their own.
>>> Someone suggests we need to review the document a page at a time
>>> and that's damn well what we're all going to do.
>>>
>>> Oh, geez, I must sound like an old cynic.
>>
>> Nahh, just somebody who, like me, has been in one too many bullshit
>> meetings.
>>
>> My faves were the ones at the court reporting outfit, where there
>> would be a daily meeting that started at 1 and lasted until 4 in which
>> we all sat around watching the owner of the company talk on the phone.
>> I finally convinced her to change those to one a week. One a month
>> was too much to hope for. She's also the one who woke up one Saturday
>> morning having a panic attack, called an immediate meeting, and sent
>> the cops looking for people who didn't show up. So when we finally
>> got there, it was another four hours of watching her talk on the
>> phone.
>
> See, this is why I hang out on these discussion groups.
> That's so funny.
>
> I don't know for sure what I would have done if I was at that place but
> it wouldn't have been pretty.

I needed a job at the time. It had its rewards--lot of women worked
there who didn't get out much, and few single hetero men.

> Daily meetings? That's my definition of hell.
> That control freak I was talking about was put in charge of our group
> and changed our status meetings from monthly to weekly. I think I made
> 3 weeks before I bailed.
>
> We had one member in that group who was carrying a really heavy work
> load. She'd been in that position for 20 years. Her project used
> to have 10 people and she ended up handling the whole thing on her own.
> The new boss really bore down on her in particular.
> She was reviewing (in the meeting)
> every little task she had. And in one week there were dozens of them.
> I felt so sorry for her. Especially when I decided, F this I'm out of
> here. I was really fortunate I'd known the new bosses boss and the
> next boss up the line for a long, long time.
>
> So it's funny about that control freak.
> I stopped going to her meetings and soon after I went and sat down with
> her boss and told him what I thought. About 6 months went by before
> her boss got back to me and gave me a new boss to report to.
> During that time I saw her once when she gave me a salary review
> and raise. (Reasonable raise.) She never said a word to me about me
> not showing up for status meetings. Maybe she got read the riot act
> but she still abused everyone else.
>
> Well, this stuff is not exactly computer folklore. I guess
> computer department folklore is close enough.

I'm not sure where I'm going at this point. My job used to be the
best job I've ever had, but there's been a big shakeup in management
and one of our developers left so I'm doing more and more with less
and less and I'm not really doing what I like to do anymore. One of
the actuaries has strong programming background and I'd love to get
her repurposed as a developer (and I think she'd like it too) but
nobody wants to discuss that possibility.
Re: Compliments to Microsoft ! (Yes, Really!) [message #398061 is a reply to message #398059] Sun, 16 August 2020 23:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dan Espen is currently offline  Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:

> On Sun, 16 Aug 2020 21:04:08 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> On Sun, 16 Aug 2020 19:23:18 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>> > Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> The next few pages and a bunch more spelling corrections
>>>> >> I get up and walk out. I go back to my office
>>>> >> and send the whole group an long email explainging
>>>> >> why the entire approach was wrong and they were
>>>> >> designing something useless.
>>>> >
>>>> > Why the heck would you do this in a meeting? Of course there are no
>>>> > secretaries any more, but it used to be possible to give this to a good
>>>> > secretary and ask “could you go over this and fix spelling and grammar.”
>>>> > and expect to get it back all cleaned up in an hour or so.
>>>>
>>>> No secretaries at that time.
>>>> Well, a few levels up in management and he'd have a personal secretary.
>>>> Not that I'd expect that would have satisfied these people.
>>>> The front of the document had things like definition of terms,
>>>> expected audience, a bunch of boiler plate.
>>>>
>>>> The truth was, there were people that knew what they were doing
>>>> surrounded by a host of hangers on that had no clue.
>>>> But they sure could debate for hours about whether it was MVS or
>>>> z/OS and whether SunOS needed a trademark symbol.
>>>
>>> Were any of them lawyers? If not then they should have left that sort
>>> of thing to the professionals.
>>>
>>>> Meetings have a momentum all their own.
>>>> Someone suggests we need to review the document a page at a time
>>>> and that's damn well what we're all going to do.
>>>>
>>>> Oh, geez, I must sound like an old cynic.
>>>
>>> Nahh, just somebody who, like me, has been in one too many bullshit
>>> meetings.
>>>
>>> My faves were the ones at the court reporting outfit, where there
>>> would be a daily meeting that started at 1 and lasted until 4 in which
>>> we all sat around watching the owner of the company talk on the phone.
>>> I finally convinced her to change those to one a week. One a month
>>> was too much to hope for. She's also the one who woke up one Saturday
>>> morning having a panic attack, called an immediate meeting, and sent
>>> the cops looking for people who didn't show up. So when we finally
>>> got there, it was another four hours of watching her talk on the
>>> phone.
>>
>> See, this is why I hang out on these discussion groups.
>> That's so funny.
>>
>> I don't know for sure what I would have done if I was at that place but
>> it wouldn't have been pretty.
>
> I needed a job at the time. It had its rewards--lot of women worked
> there who didn't get out much, and few single hetero men.
>
>> Daily meetings? That's my definition of hell.
>> That control freak I was talking about was put in charge of our group
>> and changed our status meetings from monthly to weekly. I think I made
>> 3 weeks before I bailed.
>>
>> We had one member in that group who was carrying a really heavy work
>> load. She'd been in that position for 20 years. Her project used
>> to have 10 people and she ended up handling the whole thing on her own.
>> The new boss really bore down on her in particular.
>> She was reviewing (in the meeting)
>> every little task she had. And in one week there were dozens of them.
>> I felt so sorry for her. Especially when I decided, F this I'm out of
>> here. I was really fortunate I'd known the new bosses boss and the
>> next boss up the line for a long, long time.
>>
>> So it's funny about that control freak.
>> I stopped going to her meetings and soon after I went and sat down with
>> her boss and told him what I thought. About 6 months went by before
>> her boss got back to me and gave me a new boss to report to.
>> During that time I saw her once when she gave me a salary review
>> and raise. (Reasonable raise.) She never said a word to me about me
>> not showing up for status meetings. Maybe she got read the riot act
>> but she still abused everyone else.
>>
>> Well, this stuff is not exactly computer folklore. I guess
>> computer department folklore is close enough.
>
> I'm not sure where I'm going at this point. My job used to be the
> best job I've ever had, but there's been a big shakeup in management
> and one of our developers left so I'm doing more and more with less
> and less and I'm not really doing what I like to do anymore. One of
> the actuaries has strong programming background and I'd love to get
> her repurposed as a developer (and I think she'd like it too) but
> nobody wants to discuss that possibility.

This is a tough time for these kind of issues.

When making decisions like this, I always put a high priority on trying
to do the right thing. Something I'd be proud of years later.

I'm glad I made it through all that and don't have to worry about it
anymore. The world has turned more nuts than I've ever seen it before.

It's also very important to have job satisfaction. Of course you'll
be happier, but you'll also create more value.

When I was creating all those tools, nobody asked me to do it.
I just knew it was the right thing to do. I created value and got a lot
of satisfaction out of it.

--
Dan Espen
Re: Compliments to Microsoft ! (Yes, Really!) [message #398069 is a reply to message #398059] Mon, 17 August 2020 04:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: gareth evans

On 17/08/2020 03:31, J. Clarke wrote:
>
> ... My job used to be the
> best job I've ever had, ...

Working in assembler on the PDP11 for 10 years and so
being very close to the real toy, it was like Xmas Day
every day!
Re: Compliments to Microsoft ! (Yes, Really!) [message #398073 is a reply to message #398058] Mon, 17 August 2020 05:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andy Leighton is currently offline  Andy Leighton
Messages: 203
Registered: July 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Sun, 16 Aug 2020 21:04:08 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
> Daily meetings? That's my definition of hell.

Surely it depends on the kind of meeting. I would take a 10 minute
daily meeting (at the start of the day) with my immediate dev group
over the kind of horror stories you (and J Clarke) describe.

--
Andy Leighton => andyl@azaal.plus.com
"We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
- Douglas Adams
Re: Compliments to Microsoft ! (Yes, Really!) [message #398074 is a reply to message #398073] Mon, 17 August 2020 05:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 04:27:30 -0500
Andy Leighton <andyl@azaal.plus.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 16 Aug 2020 21:04:08 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Daily meetings? That's my definition of hell.
>
> Surely it depends on the kind of meeting. I would take a 10 minute
> daily meeting (at the start of the day) with my immediate dev group
> over the kind of horror stories you (and J Clarke) describe.

Well run (or practised) daily standups are surprisingly useful and
effective. Mostly IME they serve to catch things before they fall down the
cracks.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Compliments to Microsoft ! (Yes, Really!) [message #398079 is a reply to message #398074] Mon, 17 August 2020 07:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dan Espen is currently offline  Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:

> On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 04:27:30 -0500
> Andy Leighton <andyl@azaal.plus.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 16 Aug 2020 21:04:08 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Daily meetings? That's my definition of hell.
>>
>> Surely it depends on the kind of meeting. I would take a 10 minute
>> daily meeting (at the start of the day) with my immediate dev group
>> over the kind of horror stories you (and J Clarke) describe.
>
> Well run (or practised) daily standups are surprisingly useful and
> effective. Mostly IME they serve to catch things before they fall down the
> cracks.

Back in the Y2K era we had an external organization come in and give a
couple of weeks training on how to do effective project meetings.
There were rules on how to carry out every step of the meeting.

Personally, I despised the process.

I don't like marching in order or saluting either.

The process MAY have been more effective but I don't think any of us
actually liked it. Once upper management moved on to their next new
obsession all that process went out the window.

To get away from my cynicism, corporate had a policy that supervision
had to change every year or two. Whether things were working out or not
we had to get a new supervisor. A bunch of those supervisors were
very effective and fun to work for at the same time. I preferred a
relaxed effective atmosphere.

When you have good people you don't need to treat them like
children and watch their every move.

--
Dan Espen
Re: Compliments to Microsoft ! (Yes, Really!) [message #398080 is a reply to message #398073] Mon, 17 August 2020 08:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 04:27:30 -0500, Andy Leighton
<andyl@azaal.plus.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 16 Aug 2020 21:04:08 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Daily meetings? That's my definition of hell.
>
> Surely it depends on the kind of meeting. I would take a 10 minute
> daily meeting (at the start of the day) with my immediate dev group
> over the kind of horror stories you (and J Clarke) describe.

It's actually part of the "agile" model. Daily meeting, ideally not
longer than 15 minutes, in the morning. Primary purposes are, if I
understand correctly (a) keep the manager up to speed on what's
happening, (b) report any issues that are keeping somebody from doing
his or her job, (c) make sure that everyone is aware of any priority
changes since the previous morning. Done right, 100 people can report
in 15 minutes. Done wrong it dissolves into an interminable staff
meeting.

When I started my current job my manager was committed to keeping it
simple and fast. Of course the company screwed everybody over--some
"consultant" sold them on the idea of using Jira, which is fine if
you're working on something with a scale that justifies it but for a
15 person team it's ludicrous overkill.
Re: Compliments to Microsoft ! (Yes, Really!) [message #398081 is a reply to message #398079] Mon, 17 August 2020 08:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 07:52:22 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
>
>> On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 04:27:30 -0500
>> Andy Leighton <andyl@azaal.plus.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 16 Aug 2020 21:04:08 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Daily meetings? That's my definition of hell.
>>>
>>> Surely it depends on the kind of meeting. I would take a 10 minute
>>> daily meeting (at the start of the day) with my immediate dev group
>>> over the kind of horror stories you (and J Clarke) describe.
>>
>> Well run (or practised) daily standups are surprisingly useful and
>> effective. Mostly IME they serve to catch things before they fall down the
>> cracks.
>
> Back in the Y2K era we had an external organization come in and give a
> couple of weeks training on how to do effective project meetings.
> There were rules on how to carry out every step of the meeting.
>
> Personally, I despised the process.
>
> I don't like marching in order or saluting either.
>
> The process MAY have been more effective but I don't think any of us
> actually liked it. Once upper management moved on to their next new
> obsession all that process went out the window.
>
> To get away from my cynicism, corporate had a policy that supervision
> had to change every year or two. Whether things were working out or not
> we had to get a new supervisor. A bunch of those supervisors were
> very effective and fun to work for at the same time. I preferred a
> relaxed effective atmosphere.
>
> When you have good people you don't need to treat them like
> children and watch their every move.

Have you read "Joy, Inc."? I found it an interesting read--it
describes a small company dedicated to Agile and it sounds like a fun
place to work. The reason I read it is that our management got the
author to come in and give a talk, and when they do that I do try to
take them seriously. The main thing I got out of it was how to run a
huddle. The main thing that upper management got out of it was that
open-plan offices are a good idea, so they need to spend millions of
dollars ripping out fancy cubicles and replacing them with fancy
open-plan furniture. Note--the book doesn't say that they're a good
idea, they use that plan because they're a startup and it's cheaper to
set up if you're buying furniture from a surplus store and setting up
in a warehouse.
Re: Compliments to Microsoft ! (Yes, Really!) [message #398083 is a reply to message #398079] Mon, 17 August 2020 08:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 07:52:22 -0400
Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:

> When you have good people you don't need to treat them like
> children and watch their every move.

Daily standups involve *only* the people doing the work. It's just
that one of them has the standing task of following up on and keeping track
of the issues raised at them - eg. someone says I'm blocked on task X
because I need a thing Y and I don't know how to get one, it becomes that
persons task to find a way to unblock them and get them a Y or tell them
how to get one or whatever is needed.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Compliments to Microsoft ! (Yes, Really!) [message #398084 is a reply to message #398080] Mon, 17 August 2020 09:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 08:11:50 -0400
J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:

> It's actually part of the "agile" model. Daily meeting, ideally not

An agile model - specifically Sprint/Scrum. There are many models
but this one is by far the most popular with large corporations. I think
that's because of it's extensive use of "ceremonies" and provisions for
tracking and exposing why (or at least when) things aren't go as planned
early.

It's a complex model and it takes training to do it "right" (I'm
not entirely convinced that doing it "right" is a good idea - but then
I've never seen that achieved it has always been a goal IME). A simple
example is the "user story" designed as a mechanism for requirements
capture (who cares about what and why, distilled to how do we know we've
succeeded - "Definition of Done") but almost always used as task breakdown
despite the need to torture (or abandon) the formal phrasing "As a X I need
Y so that Z" to achieve it.

> longer than 15 minutes, in the morning. Primary purposes are, if I
> understand correctly (a) keep the manager up to speed on what's
> happening, (b) report any issues that are keeping somebody from doing
> his or her job, (c) make sure that everyone is aware of any priority
> changes since the previous morning. Done right, 100 people can report
> in 15 minutes. Done wrong it dissolves into an interminable staff
> meeting.

Pretty much spot on - except substitute facilitator for manager,
their job in this respect is to clear the blockages. In theory priority
changes are not allowed to affect the current sprint, they can completely
change the following one but the current sprint is supposed to be
inviolate. In practice of course the theory can get stuffed when management
wants it yesterday.

The standard for stand-up is everyone says what they did yesterday,
what they plan for today and lists any blockers to their tasks. Scrum master
notes blockers as action items, passes on any news and it's done. Any
discussion is done outside the stand-up.

Oh yes it's called a stand-up because it's supposed to be conducted
standing up in order to make sure nobody wants it to go on any longer than
necessary. You're supposed to be uncomfortable and wanting it to be over
from the moment you get there.

The time consuming ceremonies in this model are backlog grooming,
sprint planning (complete with planning poker) and sprint retrospectives.
Done properly they can take up a day and a half or more out of each two week
sprint. I have never understood how any team manages one week sprints and
does anything - they must be *really* slick at the ceremonies to squeeze
them in.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Compliments to Microsoft ! (Yes, Really!) [message #398085 is a reply to message #398081] Mon, 17 August 2020 09:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dan Espen is currently offline  Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:

> On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 07:52:22 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
>>
>>> On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 04:27:30 -0500
>>> Andy Leighton <andyl@azaal.plus.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 16 Aug 2020 21:04:08 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> > Daily meetings? That's my definition of hell.
>>>>
>>>> Surely it depends on the kind of meeting. I would take a 10 minute
>>>> daily meeting (at the start of the day) with my immediate dev group
>>>> over the kind of horror stories you (and J Clarke) describe.
>>>
>>> Well run (or practised) daily standups are surprisingly useful and
>>> effective. Mostly IME they serve to catch things before they fall down the
>>> cracks.
>>
>> Back in the Y2K era we had an external organization come in and give a
>> couple of weeks training on how to do effective project meetings.
>> There were rules on how to carry out every step of the meeting.
>>
>> Personally, I despised the process.
>>
>> I don't like marching in order or saluting either.
>>
>> The process MAY have been more effective but I don't think any of us
>> actually liked it. Once upper management moved on to their next new
>> obsession all that process went out the window.
>>
>> To get away from my cynicism, corporate had a policy that supervision
>> had to change every year or two. Whether things were working out or not
>> we had to get a new supervisor. A bunch of those supervisors were
>> very effective and fun to work for at the same time. I preferred a
>> relaxed effective atmosphere.
>>
>> When you have good people you don't need to treat them like
>> children and watch their every move.
>
> Have you read "Joy, Inc."? I found it an interesting read--it
> describes a small company dedicated to Agile and it sounds like a fun
> place to work. The reason I read it is that our management got the
> author to come in and give a talk, and when they do that I do try to
> take them seriously. The main thing I got out of it was how to run a
> huddle. The main thing that upper management got out of it was that
> open-plan offices are a good idea, so they need to spend millions of
> dollars ripping out fancy cubicles and replacing them with fancy
> open-plan furniture. Note--the book doesn't say that they're a good
> idea, they use that plan because they're a startup and it's cheaper to
> set up if you're buying furniture from a surplus store and setting up
> in a warehouse.

I just read the online preview (first 32 pages).
I didn't like being a manager and this seems to be management viewpoint
so, I didn't find it all that appealing.

My workplace underwent the very expensive transition from mostly 2
person closed door offices to open plan.

Happily, I went to 100% WFH before that even started.
I visited the office once after the conversion.
I found it oppressive.

Now, with the epidemic, those 2 person offices would be just the thing
if there was any good reason to work onsite.

I think programming is a different process than a lot of other
office activities. If you're talking to other people, you're
taking a break and essentially wasting time.

When you're talking, words fly back and forth and are lost to the ether.
When you set down your ideas in email, web pages, or other documentation
the words are permanent and can be refined and built upon.

I'm not a fan of open plan, I'm more of an enemy of open plan.

--
Dan Espen
Re: Compliments to Microsoft ! (Yes, Really!) [message #398086 is a reply to message #398083] Mon, 17 August 2020 09:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dan Espen is currently offline  Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:

> On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 07:52:22 -0400
> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> When you have good people you don't need to treat them like
>> children and watch their every move.
>
> Daily standups involve *only* the people doing the work. It's just
> that one of them has the standing task of following up on and keeping track
> of the issues raised at them - eg. someone says I'm blocked on task X
> because I need a thing Y and I don't know how to get one, it becomes that
> persons task to find a way to unblock them and get them a Y or tell them
> how to get one or whatever is needed.

That's all well and good, but why wait for a scheduled meeting.
If you're having an issue others can help with get up and go see the
people that can help.

Even better send off an email.

I can't count the number of times I struggled with something and started
composing an email and solved the problem as I did so.

Like I just posted, in a conversation words just fly off into the ether.
Digressions happen and concentration is lost.

--
Dan Espen
Re: Compliments to Microsoft ! (Yes, Really!) [message #398089 is a reply to message #398086] Mon, 17 August 2020 11:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 09:38:11 -0400
Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:

> That's all well and good, but why wait for a scheduled meeting.
> If you're having an issue others can help with get up and go see the
> people that can help.

You don't have to wait - you only bring it to the stand-up if you
can't solve it yourself - sometimes the unblock is as simple as "You need
to talk to X" or "The documentation is here", sometimes it's "I'll ask
$manager to escalate with their manager".

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Compliments to Microsoft ! (Yes, Really!) [message #398098 is a reply to message #398054] Mon, 17 August 2020 13:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> The next few pages and a bunch more spelling corrections
>>> I get up and walk out. I go back to my office
>>> and send the whole group an long email explainging
>>> why the entire approach was wrong and they were
>>> designing something useless.
>>
>> Why the heck would you do this in a meeting? Of course there are no
>> secretaries any more, but it used to be possible to give this to a good
>> secretary and ask “could you go over this and fix spelling and grammar.”
>> and expect to get it back all cleaned up in an hour or so.
>
> No secretaries at that time.
> Well, a few levels up in management and he'd have a personal secretary.
> Not that I'd expect that would have satisfied these people.
> The front of the document had things like definition of terms,
> expected audience, a bunch of boiler plate.
>
> The truth was, there were people that knew what they were doing
> surrounded by a host of hangers on that had no clue.
> But they sure could debate for hours about whether it was MVS or
> z/OS and whether SunOS needed a trademark symbol.
>
> Meetings have a momentum all their own.
> Someone suggests we need to review the document a page at a time
> and that's damn well what we're all going to do.
>
> Oh, geez, I must sound like an old cynic.
>

Just a realist.

--
Pete
Re: Compliments to Microsoft ! (Yes, Really!) [message #398099 is a reply to message #398084] Mon, 17 August 2020 13:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 08:11:50 -0400
> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It's actually part of the "agile" model. Daily meeting, ideally not
>
> An agile model - specifically Sprint/Scrum. There are many models
> but this one is by far the most popular with large corporations. I think
> that's because of it's extensive use of "ceremonies" and provisions for
> tracking and exposing why (or at least when) things aren't go as planned
> early.
>
> It's a complex model and it takes training to do it "right" (I'm
> not entirely convinced that doing it "right" is a good idea - but then
> I've never seen that achieved it has always been a goal IME). A simple
> example is the "user story" designed as a mechanism for requirements
> capture (who cares about what and why, distilled to how do we know we've
> succeeded - "Definition of Done") but almost always used as task breakdown
> despite the need to torture (or abandon) the formal phrasing "As a X I need
> Y so that Z" to achieve it.
>
>> longer than 15 minutes, in the morning. Primary purposes are, if I
>> understand correctly (a) keep the manager up to speed on what's
>> happening, (b) report any issues that are keeping somebody from doing
>> his or her job, (c) make sure that everyone is aware of any priority
>> changes since the previous morning. Done right, 100 people can report
>> in 15 minutes. Done wrong it dissolves into an interminable staff
>> meeting.
>
> Pretty much spot on - except substitute facilitator for manager,
> their job in this respect is to clear the blockages. In theory priority
> changes are not allowed to affect the current sprint, they can completely
> change the following one but the current sprint is supposed to be
> inviolate. In practice of course the theory can get stuffed when management
> wants it yesterday.
>
> The standard for stand-up is everyone says what they did yesterday,
> what they plan for today and lists any blockers to their tasks. Scrum master
> notes blockers as action items, passes on any news and it's done. Any
> discussion is done outside the stand-up.
>
> Oh yes it's called a stand-up because it's supposed to be conducted
> standing up in order to make sure nobody wants it to go on any longer than
> necessary. You're supposed to be uncomfortable and wanting it to be over
> from the moment you get there.
>
> The time consuming ceremonies in this model are backlog grooming,
> sprint planning (complete with planning poker) and sprint retrospectives.
> Done properly they can take up a day and a half or more out of each two week
> sprint. I have never understood how any team manages one week sprints and
> does anything - they must be *really* slick at the ceremonies to squeeze
> them in.
>

I’ve got to read up on this. The terminology is completely unfamiliar. Can
anyone recommend good website or book?

--
Pete
Re: Compliments to Microsoft ! (Yes, Really!) [message #398106 is a reply to message #398099] Mon, 17 August 2020 14:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 10:25:28 -0700
Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I’ve got to read up on this. The terminology is completely unfamiliar. Can
> anyone recommend good website or book?

Hmm tricky I picked it all up on the fly by being in places
adopting it. There are courses by the thousand leading to Scrum Master and
Agile Coach and suchlike titles.

This looks to be a pretty good overview - I didn't see anything
that made me scream "NO THAT'S WRONG" and it looks pretty approachable.

< https://www.dummies.com/careers/project-management/the-funct ion-of-the-scrum-and-sprint-within-an-agile-project/
>

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Compliments to Microsoft ! (Yes, Really!) [message #398115 is a reply to message #398099] Mon, 17 August 2020 17:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 10:25:28 -0700, Peter Flass
<peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>> On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 08:11:50 -0400
>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> It's actually part of the "agile" model. Daily meeting, ideally not
>>
>> An agile model - specifically Sprint/Scrum. There are many models
>> but this one is by far the most popular with large corporations. I think
>> that's because of it's extensive use of "ceremonies" and provisions for
>> tracking and exposing why (or at least when) things aren't go as planned
>> early.
>>
>> It's a complex model and it takes training to do it "right" (I'm
>> not entirely convinced that doing it "right" is a good idea - but then
>> I've never seen that achieved it has always been a goal IME). A simple
>> example is the "user story" designed as a mechanism for requirements
>> capture (who cares about what and why, distilled to how do we know we've
>> succeeded - "Definition of Done") but almost always used as task breakdown
>> despite the need to torture (or abandon) the formal phrasing "As a X I need
>> Y so that Z" to achieve it.
>>
>>> longer than 15 minutes, in the morning. Primary purposes are, if I
>>> understand correctly (a) keep the manager up to speed on what's
>>> happening, (b) report any issues that are keeping somebody from doing
>>> his or her job, (c) make sure that everyone is aware of any priority
>>> changes since the previous morning. Done right, 100 people can report
>>> in 15 minutes. Done wrong it dissolves into an interminable staff
>>> meeting.
>>
>> Pretty much spot on - except substitute facilitator for manager,
>> their job in this respect is to clear the blockages. In theory priority
>> changes are not allowed to affect the current sprint, they can completely
>> change the following one but the current sprint is supposed to be
>> inviolate. In practice of course the theory can get stuffed when management
>> wants it yesterday.
>>
>> The standard for stand-up is everyone says what they did yesterday,
>> what they plan for today and lists any blockers to their tasks. Scrum master
>> notes blockers as action items, passes on any news and it's done. Any
>> discussion is done outside the stand-up.
>>
>> Oh yes it's called a stand-up because it's supposed to be conducted
>> standing up in order to make sure nobody wants it to go on any longer than
>> necessary. You're supposed to be uncomfortable and wanting it to be over
>> from the moment you get there.
>>
>> The time consuming ceremonies in this model are backlog grooming,
>> sprint planning (complete with planning poker) and sprint retrospectives.
>> Done properly they can take up a day and a half or more out of each two week
>> sprint. I have never understood how any team manages one week sprints and
>> does anything - they must be *really* slick at the ceremonies to squeeze
>> them in.
>>
>
> I’ve got to read up on this. The terminology is completely unfamiliar. Can
> anyone recommend good website or book?

Starting point would be <https://agilemanifesto.org/>

The major software producer supporting agile
<https://www.atlassian.com/agile/manifesto>

The ubiquitous wiki:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agile_software_development>

A little company using it:
< https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00DMCW1FK/ref=dp-kindle-redirect? _encoding=UTF8&btkr=1>

A great big company using it:
< https://www.amazon.com/Software-Engineering-Google-Lessons-P rogramming/dp/1492082791>

A beginner book:
< https://www.amazon.com/dp/1449314333/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_gx VoFb7ZFWVHN>
Re: Compliments to Microsoft ! (Yes, Really!) [message #398116 is a reply to message #398086] Mon, 17 August 2020 18:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike Spencer is currently offline  Mike Spencer
Messages: 997
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:

> I can't count the number of times I struggled with something and
> started composing an email and solved the problem as I did so.

Just so. If you're like me, you have a dread of sending off email or
a Usenet post seeking help on a technical matter that makes you
look like an idiot. To avoid that, I work very hard at composing such
a plea, striving for maximal clarity; on rereading, for optimal
brevity; then back to clarity and attention to possible ambiguities,
essential detail omitted etc.

That process often -- certainly not always -- forces me to order my
existing knowledge sufficiently that a solution emerges on its own.

And sometime I look like an idiot ayway. Ho hum. :-)


--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
Re: Compliments to Microsoft ! (Yes, Really!) [message #398117 is a reply to message #398116] Mon, 17 August 2020 19:53 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Dan Espen is currently offline  Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> writes:

> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> I can't count the number of times I struggled with something and
>> started composing an email and solved the problem as I did so.
>
> Just so. If you're like me, you have a dread of sending off email or
> a Usenet post seeking help on a technical matter that makes you
> look like an idiot. To avoid that, I work very hard at composing such
> a plea, striving for maximal clarity; on rereading, for optimal
> brevity; then back to clarity and attention to possible ambiguities,
> essential detail omitted etc.
>
> That process often -- certainly not always -- forces me to order my
> existing knowledge sufficiently that a solution emerges on its own.

Yep, as I refine the explanation I often figure the problem out.

> And sometime I look like an idiot ayway. Ho hum. :-)

Yeah, I hate that, but I'm mostly used to it.

Actually, I clearly remember a day in 1964 really early in my career
where I realized that the computer was making an idiot out of me and
I was going to have to suffer through it over and over.

I was looking out the back window looking at Pearl St. from the
office at 20 John St.

--
Dan Espen
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