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| Re: Is the Eternal September over [message #397759 is a reply to message #397716] |
Wed, 12 August 2020 15:23   |
usenet
Messages: 556
Registered: May 2013
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 16:20:54 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>> On 11 Aug 2020 18:37:11 GMT, Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> wrote:
>>> On 2020-08-11, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>>> >I wonder whether the question is moot. How many young people would
>>>> >even care about Usenet anymore, even if they knew it existed? The
>>>> >fact that Usenet is text-only is enough to drive most of them away.
>>>> >"You mean, like, no pictures? No videos? Ewww... gross!"
>>>>
>>>> That's one of the things I most like about it. If I want pictures I can
>>>> always go get them. Let's not even talk about (ugh) videos.
>>>
>>> Instructional videos are very useful for some things, like how to carry
>>> out a certain practical, physical task. But people seem to be way too
>>> fond of them, often using them when simple text and maybe a few
>>> screenshots/other images would do just fine.
>>
>> Yep. And they are often also too fond of themselves. Ten minutes of
>> some fat slob nattering, 30 seconds of him showing you how to do
>> something, probably wrong, and then another ten minutes of fat slob
>> nattering.
>>
>> The ones who know how to plan out what they're going to show and just
>> cover the material are gold.
>
> The absolute best videos on YouTube come from Andrew Camarata.
I highly recommend the videos of Mark Rober.
Mark Rober is a former NASA engineer whose work includes designing some of the
instrumentation for one of the Mars rovers. In addition to showcasing his
inventiveness and design skills, the videos' writing, pacing, camera work, and
editing are all excellent. Some topics include building a giant super soaker,
dropping a car onto a custom trampoline, creating a glitter bomb in response to
package thieves, trying to design a squirrel-proof bird feeder, some high-tech
Halloween costumes, and explaining how the physics behind seemingly simple
carnival games of skill make them so hard to beat. His data-driven approach is
interesting, entertaining, and at times informative, and he doesn't get bogged
down in the details.
http://www.youtube.com/c/MarkRober/videos
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| Re: Is the Eternal September over [message #397773 is a reply to message #397759] |
Wed, 12 August 2020 17:37 |
Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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usenet@only.tnx (Questor) writes:
> On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 16:20:54 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>> On 11 Aug 2020 18:37:11 GMT, Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> wrote:
>>>> On 2020-08-11, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> >Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>>> >>I wonder whether the question is moot. How many young people would
>>>> >>even care about Usenet anymore, even if they knew it existed? The
>>>> >>fact that Usenet is text-only is enough to drive most of them away.
>>>> >>"You mean, like, no pictures? No videos? Ewww... gross!"
>>>> >
>>>> >That's one of the things I most like about it. If I want pictures I can
>>>> >always go get them. Let's not even talk about (ugh) videos.
>>>>
>>>> Instructional videos are very useful for some things, like how to carry
>>>> out a certain practical, physical task. But people seem to be way too
>>>> fond of them, often using them when simple text and maybe a few
>>>> screenshots/other images would do just fine.
>>>
>>> Yep. And they are often also too fond of themselves. Ten minutes of
>>> some fat slob nattering, 30 seconds of him showing you how to do
>>> something, probably wrong, and then another ten minutes of fat slob
>>> nattering.
>>>
>>> The ones who know how to plan out what they're going to show and just
>>> cover the material are gold.
>>
>> The absolute best videos on YouTube come from Andrew Camarata.
>
> I highly recommend the videos of Mark Rober.
>
> Mark Rober is a former NASA engineer whose work includes designing some of the
> instrumentation for one of the Mars rovers. In addition to showcasing his
> inventiveness and design skills, the videos' writing, pacing, camera work, and
> editing are all excellent. Some topics include building a giant super soaker,
> dropping a car onto a custom trampoline, creating a glitter bomb in response to
> package thieves, trying to design a squirrel-proof bird feeder, some high-tech
> Halloween costumes, and explaining how the physics behind seemingly simple
> carnival games of skill make them so hard to beat. His data-driven approach is
> interesting, entertaining, and at times informative, and he doesn't get bogged
> down in the details.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/c/MarkRober/videos
Hmm, watched "Does Farting Make You Weigh Less?".
I did not use Google to check the density or air vs methane.
If I had I would have guessed no, instead I guessed yes.
I figured they were close.
I also figured there's a certain amount of moisture which would be a lot
more dense than air. I also figured the fart inside your body is under pressure.
Mark didn't consider either of these factors.
The fart is going to be at 98F. Mark didn't mention air temperature or
altitude at all.
Since air density is 1.2 kg/m^3 and methane is .67 kg/m^3 I'm guessing
he's right.
So, did not subscribe. A bit too simple minded for me.
Another guy I like is Thoisoi2 who does chemistry.
Chemistry for grownups. He did one on iodine a while back.
Before that, I'd never seen iodine in it's metallic state.
--
Dan Espen
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| Re: Is the Eternal September over [message #397800 is a reply to message #397794] |
Thu, 13 August 2020 08:01 |
Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> writes:
> On So 09 Aug 2020 at 10:40, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I suppose Usenet, but more important the Internet can eventually end
>> the curse of the Tower of Babel.
>
> It is not a curse. It is more of a blessing.
> I like the diofferent languages.
A blessing?
3 days later, and the only reason you can come up with that it's a
blessing is that you like different languages? I'm curious, why
do you like not being able to communicate with others? Or do you just
like the intellectual challenge of being able to learn the few languages
that you know?
The original bible story has stood for the last 2000 years as an
parable of a curse imposed on humanity. That's been pretty much
unquestioned.
There is an intelligence sharing organization called the Five Eyes
consisting of the USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and the UK.
These 5 countries trust each other more than they trust other
major powers like Germany and France. They all have something
in common and I don't mean their skin color.
Periodically in the USA we have the more paranoid among us wanting
to pass laws to make English the countries "official" language.
There's a huge economic cost to having to cope with all the
different languages in the world. We have instruction manuals
5 times larger than they have to be in tiny print because
they try to serve customers that can't understand a common
language. We have translators hired so that business people
and politicians can attempt to understand each other.
Great ideas in written works can't reach people unless they
are translated to other languages.
I know I won't see it in the time I have left to live
but someday we'll all understand each other a little better
and a common language will help that along, and the Internet
will contribute to that happening.
--
Dan Espen
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| Re: Is the Eternal September over [message #397807 is a reply to message #397800] |
Thu, 13 August 2020 10:33 |
Niklas Karlsson
Messages: 265
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2020-08-13, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> 3 days later, and the only reason you can come up with that it's a
> blessing is that you like different languages? I'm curious, why
> do you like not being able to communicate with others? Or do you just
> like the intellectual challenge of being able to learn the few languages
> that you know?
Are there drawbacks to the wide variety of languages found in the world
today? Certainly.
However, a language is part of the culture using it, and reflects that
culture in various ways. Removing a language loses us this cultural
signature, essentially destroying information. I think that would be
unfortunate.
The present order of things, with English as the lingua franca (amusing,
since that means 'French language'), appears to work tolerably. Younger
people seem to have a decent command of English in lots of different
places.
Niklas
--
Not as in "I have a better offer, do what I say", but simply "I'll
resign if you don't do what I say". I didn't want them to beat a
price, I wanted them to beat the people causing problems.
-- Joe Thompson
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| Re: Is the Eternal September over [message #397808 is a reply to message #397807] |
Thu, 13 August 2020 10:46 |
Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> writes:
> On 2020-08-13, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> 3 days later, and the only reason you can come up with that it's a
>> blessing is that you like different languages? I'm curious, why
>> do you like not being able to communicate with others? Or do you just
>> like the intellectual challenge of being able to learn the few languages
>> that you know?
>
> Are there drawbacks to the wide variety of languages found in the world
> today? Certainly.
>
> However, a language is part of the culture using it, and reflects that
> culture in various ways. Removing a language loses us this cultural
> signature, essentially destroying information. I think that would be
> unfortunate.
>
> The present order of things, with English as the lingua franca (amusing,
> since that means 'French language'), appears to work tolerably. Younger
> people seem to have a decent command of English in lots of different
> places.
Sorry, but I believe that "diversity" argument is weak
and counter productive.
Years ago, my employer did one of those diversity training
things. The speaker went on at length about the beauty of
jive talk. Showing how 3 words could express a multitude of
ideas depending on the inflection. I think it was "she be gone".
Seemed like a bunch of nonsense to me.
Speaking clearly and saying what you mean is the way to go.
If your language has a unique way of expressing an idea,
incorporate it into English (as we've done so often before).
There's no reason for anything of value to be lost.
--
Dan Espen
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| Re: Is the Eternal September over [message #397810 is a reply to message #397554] |
Thu, 13 August 2020 11:49 |
Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> writes:
> On 8/13/2020 9:46 AM, Dan Espen wrote:
>> Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> writes:
>>
>>> On 2020-08-13, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> 3 days later, and the only reason you can come up with that it's a
>>>> blessing is that you like different languages? I'm curious, why
>>>> do you like not being able to communicate with others? Or do you just
>>>> like the intellectual challenge of being able to learn the few languages
>>>> that you know?
>>>
>>> Are there drawbacks to the wide variety of languages found in the world
>>> today? Certainly.
>>>
>>> However, a language is part of the culture using it, and reflects that
>>> culture in various ways. Removing a language loses us this cultural
>>> signature, essentially destroying information. I think that would be
>>> unfortunate.
>>>
>>> The present order of things, with English as the lingua franca (amusing,
>>> since that means 'French language'), appears to work tolerably. Younger
>>> people seem to have a decent command of English in lots of different
>>> places.
>>
>> Sorry, but I believe that "diversity" argument is weak
>> and counter productive.
>>
>> Years ago, my employer did one of those diversity training
>> things. The speaker went on at length about the beauty of
>> jive talk. Showing how 3 words could express a multitude of
>> ideas depending on the inflection. I think it was "she be gone".
>> Seemed like a bunch of nonsense to me.
>> Speaking clearly and saying what you mean is the way to go.
>>
>> If your language has a unique way of expressing an idea,
>> incorporate it into English (as we've done so often before).
>> There's no reason for anything of value to be lost.
>>
>
> If your argument is for standardization, I trust you'd be ok with the
> common language being Mandarin Chinese? It's the native language of
> 12% of the world's population (17% if you include all the various
> dialects), as opposed to 5% for English.
>
> Me, I'm too old to learn Chinese, so everybody should learn the
> language I already know.
I don't think that's going to happen.
First I'd want to see an phonetic alphabet come into common usage,
but if that's what it takes to lift the curse, so be it.
No, I am not trying to push English just because I speak it.
--
Dan Espen
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| Re: Is the Eternal September over [message #397812 is a reply to message #397808] |
Thu, 13 August 2020 12:53 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
> Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> writes:
>
>> On 2020-08-13, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> 3 days later, and the only reason you can come up with that it's a
>>> blessing is that you like different languages? I'm curious, why
>>> do you like not being able to communicate with others? Or do you just
>>> like the intellectual challenge of being able to learn the few languages
>>> that you know?
>>
>> Are there drawbacks to the wide variety of languages found in the world
>> today? Certainly.
>>
>> However, a language is part of the culture using it, and reflects that
>> culture in various ways. Removing a language loses us this cultural
>> signature, essentially destroying information. I think that would be
>> unfortunate.
>>
>> The present order of things, with English as the lingua franca (amusing,
>> since that means 'French language'), appears to work tolerably. Younger
>> people seem to have a decent command of English in lots of different
>> places.
>
> Sorry, but I believe that "diversity" argument is weak
> and counter productive.
>
> Years ago, my employer did one of those diversity training
> things. The speaker went on at length about the beauty of
> jive talk. Showing how 3 words could express a multitude of
> ideas depending on the inflection. I think it was "she be gone".
> Seemed like a bunch of nonsense to me.
> Speaking clearly and saying what you mean is the way to go.
>
> If your language has a unique way of expressing an idea,
> incorporate it into English (as we've done so often before).
> There's no reason for anything of value to be lost.
>
That’s apparently what “jive talk” does. The construct “x be y” apparently
expresses a continuing action, carried forward from african. (or
something like that). x is y now, and will be for the foreseeable future.
I’m not sure it’s the same syntax or something else that expresses a
habitual condition. x is often y.
--
Pete
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| Re: Is the Eternal September over [message #397813 is a reply to message #397554] |
Thu, 13 August 2020 12:53 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> wrote:
> On 8/13/2020 9:46 AM, Dan Espen wrote:
>> Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> writes:
>>
>>> On 2020-08-13, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> 3 days later, and the only reason you can come up with that it's a
>>>> blessing is that you like different languages? I'm curious, why
>>>> do you like not being able to communicate with others? Or do you just
>>>> like the intellectual challenge of being able to learn the few languages
>>>> that you know?
>>>
>>> Are there drawbacks to the wide variety of languages found in the world
>>> today? Certainly.
>>>
>>> However, a language is part of the culture using it, and reflects that
>>> culture in various ways. Removing a language loses us this cultural
>>> signature, essentially destroying information. I think that would be
>>> unfortunate.
>>>
>>> The present order of things, with English as the lingua franca (amusing,
>>> since that means 'French language'), appears to work tolerably. Younger
>>> people seem to have a decent command of English in lots of different
>>> places.
>>
>> Sorry, but I believe that "diversity" argument is weak
>> and counter productive.
>>
>> Years ago, my employer did one of those diversity training
>> things. The speaker went on at length about the beauty of
>> jive talk. Showing how 3 words could express a multitude of
>> ideas depending on the inflection. I think it was "she be gone".
>> Seemed like a bunch of nonsense to me.
>> Speaking clearly and saying what you mean is the way to go.
>>
>> If your language has a unique way of expressing an idea,
>> incorporate it into English (as we've done so often before).
>> There's no reason for anything of value to be lost.
>>
>
> If your argument is for standardization, I trust you'd be ok with the
> common language being Mandarin Chinese? It's the native language of
> 12% of the world's population (17% if you include all the various
> dialects), as opposed to 5% for English.
>
> Me, I'm too old to learn Chinese, so everybody should learn the
> language I already know.
>
Mandarin has a lot of native speakers, but few outside of China. The
educated elites of just about everywhere speak English (thanks, British
Empire), and it’s largely the language of science. A lot of archaeology
papers are in German or French, however.
--
Pete
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| Re: Is the Eternal September over [message #397814 is a reply to message #397810] |
Thu, 13 August 2020 12:53 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> writes:
>
>> On 8/13/2020 9:46 AM, Dan Espen wrote:
>>> Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 2020-08-13, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > 3 days later, and the only reason you can come up with that it's a
>>>> > blessing is that you like different languages? I'm curious, why
>>>> > do you like not being able to communicate with others? Or do you just
>>>> > like the intellectual challenge of being able to learn the few languages
>>>> > that you know?
>>>>
>>>> Are there drawbacks to the wide variety of languages found in the world
>>>> today? Certainly.
>>>>
>>>> However, a language is part of the culture using it, and reflects that
>>>> culture in various ways. Removing a language loses us this cultural
>>>> signature, essentially destroying information. I think that would be
>>>> unfortunate.
>>>>
>>>> The present order of things, with English as the lingua franca (amusing,
>>>> since that means 'French language'), appears to work tolerably. Younger
>>>> people seem to have a decent command of English in lots of different
>>>> places.
>>>
>>> Sorry, but I believe that "diversity" argument is weak
>>> and counter productive.
>>>
>>> Years ago, my employer did one of those diversity training
>>> things. The speaker went on at length about the beauty of
>>> jive talk. Showing how 3 words could express a multitude of
>>> ideas depending on the inflection. I think it was "she be gone".
>>> Seemed like a bunch of nonsense to me.
>>> Speaking clearly and saying what you mean is the way to go.
>>>
>>> If your language has a unique way of expressing an idea,
>>> incorporate it into English (as we've done so often before).
>>> There's no reason for anything of value to be lost.
>>>
>>
>> If your argument is for standardization, I trust you'd be ok with the
>> common language being Mandarin Chinese? It's the native language of
>> 12% of the world's population (17% if you include all the various
>> dialects), as opposed to 5% for English.
>>
>> Me, I'm too old to learn Chinese, so everybody should learn the
>> language I already know.
>
> I don't think that's going to happen.
> First I'd want to see an phonetic alphabet come into common usage,
> but if that's what it takes to lift the curse, so be it.
>
This has it’s own problems. When Turkey changed from Arabic Script to a
variant of the roman alphabet much of their literature and history
gradually became unreadable without a special effort on the part of native
Turkish speakers. Not to say it wasn’t a smart long-term move, but it
wasn’t pain-free.
--
Pete
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| Re: Is the Eternal September over [message #397820 is a reply to message #397813] |
Thu, 13 August 2020 13:02 |
Niklas Karlsson
Messages: 265
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2020-08-13, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Mandarin has a lot of native speakers, but few outside of China. The
> educated elites of just about everywhere speak English (thanks, British
> Empire), and it’s largely the language of science. A lot of archaeology
> papers are in German or French, however.
British Empire? Yeah, I guess that contributed, but I'm inclined to
assign much more of the credit to the current American hegemony.
Here in Sweden, I think much of it can be attributed to Hollywood. We
don't dub movies if they're for an audience old enough to read, only
subtitle. I think that does quite a lot for your average Swede's ability
with English. Quite possibly more than the mandatory English subject in
school does.
My own English was mainly acquired through computer use from an early
age (I was born in 1980). Yes, translated software existed even then,
but only in a certain few cases. There wasn't much you could do without
running into English.
Niklas
--
At last, a weapon that blows up and sucks.
-- Mike Andrews
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| Re: Is the Eternal September over [message #397821 is a reply to message #397814] |
Thu, 13 August 2020 13:04 |
Niklas Karlsson
Messages: 265
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2020-08-13, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I don't think that's going to happen.
>> First I'd want to see an phonetic alphabet come into common usage,
>> but if that's what it takes to lift the curse, so be it.
>>
>
> This has it’s own problems. When Turkey changed from Arabic Script to a
> variant of the roman alphabet much of their literature and history
> gradually became unreadable without a special effort on the part of native
> Turkish speakers. Not to say it wasn’t a smart long-term move, but it
> wasn’t pain-free.
That's also a very good point. History matters.
Niklas
--
When being picked up against their will by larger creatures, cats and human
children share not only the ability to temporarily sprout extra limbs and
perform incredible acts of contortionism, but also to temporarily increase their
weight.
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| Re: Is the Eternal September over [message #397823 is a reply to message #397812] |
Thu, 13 August 2020 13:27 |
Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> writes:
>>
>>> On 2020-08-13, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> 3 days later, and the only reason you can come up with that it's a
>>>> blessing is that you like different languages? I'm curious, why
>>>> do you like not being able to communicate with others? Or do you just
>>>> like the intellectual challenge of being able to learn the few languages
>>>> that you know?
>>>
>>> Are there drawbacks to the wide variety of languages found in the world
>>> today? Certainly.
>>>
>>> However, a language is part of the culture using it, and reflects that
>>> culture in various ways. Removing a language loses us this cultural
>>> signature, essentially destroying information. I think that would be
>>> unfortunate.
>>>
>>> The present order of things, with English as the lingua franca (amusing,
>>> since that means 'French language'), appears to work tolerably. Younger
>>> people seem to have a decent command of English in lots of different
>>> places.
>>
>> Sorry, but I believe that "diversity" argument is weak
>> and counter productive.
>>
>> Years ago, my employer did one of those diversity training
>> things. The speaker went on at length about the beauty of
>> jive talk. Showing how 3 words could express a multitude of
>> ideas depending on the inflection. I think it was "she be gone".
>> Seemed like a bunch of nonsense to me.
>> Speaking clearly and saying what you mean is the way to go.
>>
>> If your language has a unique way of expressing an idea,
>> incorporate it into English (as we've done so often before).
>> There's no reason for anything of value to be lost.
>
> That’s apparently what “jive talk” does. The construct “x be y” apparently
> expresses a continuing action, carried forward from african. (or
> something like that). x is y now, and will be for the foreseeable future.
> I’m not sure it’s the same syntax or something else that expresses a
> habitual condition. x is often y.
Well, the whole incident seemed bizarre to me. Here I was working in a
communications company writing specs and designing systems and this guy
was advocating a really vague form of communicating.
Not that I'm against diversity. I don't mind diverse things that are
improvements.
--
Dan Espen
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| Re: Is the Eternal September over [message #397829 is a reply to message #397820] |
Thu, 13 August 2020 13:50 |
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 13 Aug 2020 17:02:03 GMT
Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> wrote:
> On 2020-08-13, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> Mandarin has a lot of native speakers, but few outside of China. The
>> educated elites of just about everywhere speak English (thanks, British
>> Empire), and it’s largely the language of science. A lot of archaeology
>> papers are in German or French, however.
>
> British Empire? Yeah, I guess that contributed, but I'm inclined to
It got things started.
> assign much more of the credit to the current American hegemony.
Agreed, particularly American TV and films. Even here in Ireland
with the UK right next door you hear more Americanisms than Britishisms.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
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| Re: Is the Eternal September over [message #397836 is a reply to message #397808] |
Thu, 13 August 2020 17:05 |
Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2020-08-13, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sorry, but I believe that "diversity" argument is weak
> and counter productive.
But it's also Politically Correct, so it's gaining a lot of
traction, even in places where it's demonstrably harmful.
> Years ago, my employer did one of those diversity training
> things. The speaker went on at length about the beauty of
> jive talk. Showing how 3 words could express a multitude of
> ideas depending on the inflection. I think it was "she be gone".
> Seemed like a bunch of nonsense to me.
I think I heard something a while back about people trying to
get "Ebonics" established as a valid dialect. Feh.
> Speaking clearly and saying what you mean is the way to go.
>
> If your language has a unique way of expressing an idea,
> incorporate it into English (as we've done so often before).
> There's no reason for anything of value to be lost.
English has been referred to as a "kleptolect".
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.
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| Re: Is the Eternal September over [message #397837 is a reply to message #397773] |
Thu, 13 August 2020 17:05 |
Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2020-08-12, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hmm, watched "Does Farting Make You Weigh Less?".
> I did not use Google to check the density or air vs methane.
> If I had I would have guessed no, instead I guessed yes.
> I figured they were close.
Who needs Google (or even DuckDuckGo, if you'd rather not
put up with the surveillance)? Methane (CH4) has a molecular
weight of 16, while air, being a mixture of roughly 80% N2
(molecular weight 28) and 20% O2 (molecular weight 32),
averages out to about 29. Methane is considerably lighter.
> I also figured there's a certain amount of moisture which
> would be a lot more dense than air.
Depends on whether you think of it as liquid water (800
times as dense as air) or water vapour (molecular weight 18).
> I also figured the fart inside your body is under pressure.
> Mark didn't consider either of these factors.
The pressure would be a small fraction of an atmosphere,
so it shouldn't be significant.
> The fart is going to be at 98F. Mark didn't mention
> air temperature or altitude at all.
98F is about 310K; room temperature air (say, 70F) would be
about 294K. That's only about a 5% change. As for altitude,
both the fart and the ambient air will expand by the same
amount. Farting at altitude is just equalization, after all. :-)
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.
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| Re: Is the Eternal September over [message #397841 is a reply to message #397836] |
Thu, 13 August 2020 17:58 |
Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
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Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
> On 2020-08-13, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Sorry, but I believe that "diversity" argument is weak
>> and counter productive.
>
> But it's also Politically Correct, so it's gaining a lot of
> traction, even in places where it's demonstrably harmful.
>
>> Years ago, my employer did one of those diversity training
>> things. The speaker went on at length about the beauty of
>> jive talk. Showing how 3 words could express a multitude of
>> ideas depending on the inflection. I think it was "she be gone".
>> Seemed like a bunch of nonsense to me.
>
> I think I heard something a while back about people trying to
> get "Ebonics" established as a valid dialect. Feh.
Yeah, I remember that. Ebonics is just people playing with the
language. IMHO, it might be fun but it's not productive.
It reduces instead of improves communication.
It's sort of like the way people in India pronounce English.
It sounds to me like they're trying to "sing" the language.
Back when I lived in the Bronx, I had friends with the funny
Bronx accent. Thankfully, television sort of wiped that out.
Now we all speak like mid-westerners, where my parents came from.
Seems to me that's the best way to speak English. Clearly.
--
Dan Espen
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| Re: Is the Eternal September over [message #397842 is a reply to message #397813] |
Thu, 13 August 2020 17:59 |
Gerard Schildberger
Messages: 163
Registered: September 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On Thursday, August 13, 2020 at 11:53:56 AM UTC-5, Peter Flass wrote:
> Dave Garland wrote:
>> On 8/13/2020 9:46 AM, Dan Espen wrote:
>>> Niklas Karlsson writes:
>>>
>>>> On 2020-08-13, Dan Espen wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > 3 days later, and the only reason you can come up with that it's a
>>>> > blessing is that you like different languages? I'm curious, why
>>>> > do you like not being able to communicate with others? Or do you just
>>>> > like the intellectual challenge of being able to learn the few languages
>>>> > that you know?
>>>>
>>>> Are there drawbacks to the wide variety of languages found in the world
>>>> today? Certainly.
>>>>
>>>> However, a language is part of the culture using it, and reflects that
>>>> culture in various ways. Removing a language loses us this cultural
>>>> signature, essentially destroying information. I think that would be
>>>> unfortunate.
>>>>
>>>> The present order of things, with English as the lingua franca (amusing,
>>>> since that means 'French language'), appears to work tolerably. Younger
>>>> people seem to have a decent command of English in lots of different
>>>> places.
>>>
>>> Sorry, but I believe that "diversity" argument is weak
>>> and counter productive.
>>>
>>> Years ago, my employer did one of those diversity training
>>> things. The speaker went on at length about the beauty of
>>> jive talk. Showing how 3 words could express a multitude of
>>> ideas depending on the inflection. I think it was "she be gone".
>>> Seemed like a bunch of nonsense to me.
>>> Speaking clearly and saying what you mean is the way to go.
>>>
>>> If your language has a unique way of expressing an idea,
>>> incorporate it into English (as we've done so often before).
>>> There's no reason for anything of value to be lost.
>>>
>>
>> If your argument is for standardization, I trust you'd be ok with the
>> common language being Mandarin Chinese? It's the native language of
>> 12% of the world's population (17% if you include all the various
>> dialects), as opposed to 5% for English.
>>
>> Me, I'm too old to learn Chinese, so everybody should learn the
>> language I already know.
>>
>
> Mandarin has a lot of native speakers, but few outside of China. The
> educated elites of just about everywhere speak English (thanks, British
> Empire), and it’s largely the language of science. A lot of archaeology
> papers are in German or French, however.
>
> --
> Pete
That mention of 5% of the world's population speaking "English",
contradicts what I gleaned from a book (circa 1985) on linguistics:
There were more people in China learning English that the rest of
the world who spoke English. __________________ Gerard Schildberger
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| Re: Is the Eternal September over [message #397843 is a reply to message #397836] |
Thu, 13 August 2020 17:41 |
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
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On 13 Aug 2020 21:05:01 GMT
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> English has been referred to as a "kleptolect".
“The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that
English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words;
on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.”
- James D. Nicoll
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
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| Re: Is the Eternal September over [message #397844 is a reply to message #397837] |
Thu, 13 August 2020 18:12 |
Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
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Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
> On 2020-08-12, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hmm, watched "Does Farting Make You Weigh Less?".
>> I did not use Google to check the density or air vs methane.
>> If I had I would have guessed no, instead I guessed yes.
>> I figured they were close.
>
> Who needs Google (or even DuckDuckGo, if you'd rather not
> put up with the surveillance)? Methane (CH4) has a molecular
> weight of 16, while air, being a mixture of roughly 80% N2
> (molecular weight 28) and 20% O2 (molecular weight 32),
> averages out to about 29. Methane is considerably lighter.
Without knowing any of that, I guess I could have gotten there
by knowing that Methane is CH4. The Carbon is in the same
neighborhood as Oxygen and Nitrogen but the Hydrogen is
the lightest element by far.
As for Google surveillance, please Google remember everything
I type. I love when I type the letter Y and it knows I want
YouTube. I've got nothing to hide.
I normally run Firefox with an ad-blocker. I had no idea that YouTube shows
ads. To help these companies out during the shut down,
when I had to switch to Google Chrome
I didn't install an ad blocker. It's funny, I bought some rubber
gym flooring. Now everywhere I go I see rubber flooring ads.
I already bought the stuff, do they really think I'm going to buy more?
So, now Google knows I'm also interested in farts and density.
Doesn't matter to me.
--
Dan Espen
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| Re: The ideal Language, or Is the Eternal September over [message #397846 is a reply to message #397810] |
Thu, 13 August 2020 18:57 |
John Levine
Messages: 1405
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
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In article <rh3ndi$87o$1@dont-email.me>,
Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>> If your argument is for standardization, I trust you'd be ok with the
>> common language being Mandarin Chinese? It's the native language of
>> 12% of the world's population (17% if you include all the various
>> dialects), as opposed to 5% for English.
>>
>> Me, I'm too old to learn Chinese, so everybody should learn the
>> language I already know.
>
> I don't think that's going to happen.
> First I'd want to see an phonetic alphabet come into common usage,
> but if that's what it takes to lift the curse, so be it.
Don't be ridiculous. One of the great advantages of written Chinese is
that it is a common language for over a billion people with very
different spoken languages (as different as French and Portuguese, I
hear.) A large part of it is also common with Japanese kanji.
Anyway, there is a common phonetic alphabet for Mandarin called
pinyin. That's how you type Chinese into your computer or phone.
--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
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| Re: Is the Eternal September over [message #397848 is a reply to message #397844] |
Thu, 13 August 2020 19:08 |
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Originally posted by: J. Clarke
On Thu, 13 Aug 2020 18:12:26 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>
>> On 2020-08-12, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hmm, watched "Does Farting Make You Weigh Less?".
>>> I did not use Google to check the density or air vs methane.
>>> If I had I would have guessed no, instead I guessed yes.
>>> I figured they were close.
>>
>> Who needs Google (or even DuckDuckGo, if you'd rather not
>> put up with the surveillance)? Methane (CH4) has a molecular
>> weight of 16, while air, being a mixture of roughly 80% N2
>> (molecular weight 28) and 20% O2 (molecular weight 32),
>> averages out to about 29. Methane is considerably lighter.
>
> Without knowing any of that, I guess I could have gotten there
> by knowing that Methane is CH4. The Carbon is in the same
> neighborhood as Oxygen and Nitrogen but the Hydrogen is
> the lightest element by far.
>
> As for Google surveillance, please Google remember everything
> I type. I love when I type the letter Y and it knows I want
> YouTube. I've got nothing to hide.
>
> I normally run Firefox with an ad-blocker. I had no idea that YouTube shows
> ads. To help these companies out during the shut down,
> when I had to switch to Google Chrome
> I didn't install an ad blocker. It's funny, I bought some rubber
> gym flooring. Now everywhere I go I see rubber flooring ads.
> I already bought the stuff, do they really think I'm going to buy more?
The software that makes the determination of what kind of ad to
present appears to be an example of the "artificial stupidity" branch
of AI. How many washing machines do they think someone buys in a
lifetime?
> So, now Google knows I'm also interested in farts and density.
> Doesn't matter to me.
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| Re: Is the Eternal September over [message #397850 is a reply to message #397843] |
Thu, 13 August 2020 20:12 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> On 13 Aug 2020 21:05:01 GMT
> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>
>> English has been referred to as a "kleptolect".
>
> “The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that
> English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words;
> on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
> them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.”
> - James D. Nicoll
>
I’ve seen this before, but lately I’ve been saving interesting quotes on my
iPad, so, thanks.
--
Pete
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| Re: Is the Eternal September over [message #397851 is a reply to message #397841] |
Thu, 13 August 2020 20:12 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>
>> On 2020-08-13, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Sorry, but I believe that "diversity" argument is weak
>>> and counter productive.
>>
>> But it's also Politically Correct, so it's gaining a lot of
>> traction, even in places where it's demonstrably harmful.
>>
>>> Years ago, my employer did one of those diversity training
>>> things. The speaker went on at length about the beauty of
>>> jive talk. Showing how 3 words could express a multitude of
>>> ideas depending on the inflection. I think it was "she be gone".
>>> Seemed like a bunch of nonsense to me.
>>
>> I think I heard something a while back about people trying to
>> get "Ebonics" established as a valid dialect. Feh.
>
> Yeah, I remember that. Ebonics is just people playing with the
> language. IMHO, it might be fun but it's not productive.
> It reduces instead of improves communication.
>
> It's sort of like the way people in India pronounce English.
> It sounds to me like they're trying to "sing" the language.
>
> Back when I lived in the Bronx, I had friends with the funny
> Bronx accent. Thankfully, television sort of wiped that out.
> Now we all speak like mid-westerners, where my parents came from.
> Seems to me that's the best way to speak English. Clearly.
>
“General American” accent, yes, clearly. Of course it helps that that’s
also MY accent.
--
Pete
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| Re: The ideal Language, or Is the Eternal September over [message #397852 is a reply to message #397846] |
Thu, 13 August 2020 20:12 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
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John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
> In article <rh3ndi$87o$1@dont-email.me>,
> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> If your argument is for standardization, I trust you'd be ok with the
>>> common language being Mandarin Chinese? It's the native language of
>>> 12% of the world's population (17% if you include all the various
>>> dialects), as opposed to 5% for English.
>>>
>>> Me, I'm too old to learn Chinese, so everybody should learn the
>>> language I already know.
>>
>> I don't think that's going to happen.
>> First I'd want to see an phonetic alphabet come into common usage,
>> but if that's what it takes to lift the curse, so be it.
>
> Don't be ridiculous. One of the great advantages of written Chinese is
> that it is a common language for over a billion people with very
> different spoken languages (as different as French and Portuguese, I
> hear.) A large part of it is also common with Japanese kanji.
>
> Anyway, there is a common phonetic alphabet for Mandarin called
> pinyin. That's how you type Chinese into your computer or phone.
>
is there an app that translates pinyin to glyphs? It seems do-able.
--
Pete
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| Re: The ideal Language, or Is the Eternal September over [message #397854 is a reply to message #397846] |
Thu, 13 August 2020 21:11 |
Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> writes:
> In article <rh3ndi$87o$1@dont-email.me>,
> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> If your argument is for standardization, I trust you'd be ok with the
>>> common language being Mandarin Chinese? It's the native language of
>>> 12% of the world's population (17% if you include all the various
>>> dialects), as opposed to 5% for English.
>>>
>>> Me, I'm too old to learn Chinese, so everybody should learn the
>>> language I already know.
>>
>> I don't think that's going to happen.
>> First I'd want to see an phonetic alphabet come into common usage,
>> but if that's what it takes to lift the curse, so be it.
>
> Don't be ridiculous. One of the great advantages of written Chinese is
> that it is a common language for over a billion people with very
> different spoken languages (as different as French and Portuguese, I
> hear.) A large part of it is also common with Japanese kanji.
>
> Anyway, there is a common phonetic alphabet for Mandarin called
> pinyin. That's how you type Chinese into your computer or phone.
Well, I usually try pretty hard not to be ridiculous but things happen.
I know about Pinyin.
I just don't think the pictographs have any place in our future common
written language.
--
Dan Espen
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| Re: Is the Eternal September over [message #397857 is a reply to message #397836] |
Thu, 13 August 2020 21:45 |
Rich Alderson
Messages: 489
Registered: August 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
> On 2020-08-13, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Years ago, my employer did one of those diversity training things. The
>> speaker went on at length about the beauty of jive talk. Showing how 3
>> words could express a multitude of ideas depending on the inflection. I
>> think it was "she be gone". Seemed like a bunch of nonsense to me.
> I think I heard something a while back about people trying to get "Ebonics"
> established as a valid dialect. Feh.
Your political leanings are showing.
"Ebonics" is a name given more than a century ago to what is now commonly known
in linguistics as African-American Vernacular English, or AAVE. Just because
it was treated as a joke by nighttime comedians when an effort was made to
accommodate children whose native language was not American General Standard
does not make it a nonlanguage, or invalid, or whatever you care to deem it in
your perfection of mind.
The syntax, morphology, and phonology of AAVE differ markedly from AGS, in ways
which are easily described in the technical linguistic literature. Why don't
you actually research the question, instead of dismissing it from your
privileged position?
Oh, right. This is one of those newsgroups.
--
Rich Alderson news@alderson.users.panix.com
Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
--Galen
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| Re: Is the Eternal September over [message #397868 is a reply to message #397808] |
Thu, 13 August 2020 23:37 |
usenet
Messages: 556
Registered: May 2013
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
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|
On Thu, 13 Aug 2020 10:46:54 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
> Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> writes:
>> On 2020-08-13, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> 3 days later, and the only reason you can come up with that it's a
>>> blessing is that you like different languages? I'm curious, why
>>> do you like not being able to communicate with others? Or do you just
>>> like the intellectual challenge of being able to learn the few languages
>>> that you know?
>>
>> Are there drawbacks to the wide variety of languages found in the world
>> today? Certainly.
>>
>> However, a language is part of the culture using it, and reflects that
>> culture in various ways. Removing a language loses us this cultural
>> signature, essentially destroying information. I think that would be
>> unfortunate.
>>
>> The present order of things, with English as the lingua franca (amusing,
>> since that means 'French language'), appears to work tolerably. Younger
>> people seem to have a decent command of English in lots of different
>> places.
>
> Sorry, but I believe that "diversity" argument is weak
> and counter productive.
>
> Years ago, my employer did one of those diversity training
> things. The speaker went on at length about the beauty of
> jive talk. Showing how 3 words could express a multitude of
> ideas depending on the inflection. I think it was "she be gone".
> Seemed like a bunch of nonsense to me.
> Speaking clearly and saying what you mean is the way to go.
>
> If your language has a unique way of expressing an idea,
> incorporate it into English (as we've done so often before).
> There's no reason for anything of value to be lost.
I'm guessing you are not a big fan of poetry.
As far as tone (inflection), there are many tonal languages, particularly in
Asia. But the same phenomena exists in English. Consider the following dialog:
A: "I think we should check the foobar valve on the gizmo."
B: "Right."
Depending on their tone, B's response might mean ready assent, questioning
hesitation, or even a sarcastic denial.
And either you haven't heard of, or don't believe in the Whorfian Hypothesis:
put simply, the idea that language shapes thought. We see some evidence of that
in the many terms that English borrows for different concepts. A couple of
examples: schadenfreude, zeitgeist. Yes, they can be explained in a few words,
but its not same has having the concept encapsulated in a single word. And how
many times has it been said of a foreign word or phrase, "there's not an exact
translation." Puns, double entendres, and other word play are usually specific
to a language and don't survive when expressed in another. So yes, those
associations and humor would be lost, as well as a potentially different
weltanshauung and way of thinking.
And what language should be the one language? Mandarin has by far the most
native speakers. Spanish is second, and is more widespread. English is third,
but Hindi has almost as many. Even outside of the French colonies, the French
language was long considered the language of diplomacy, and being fluent in it
was the mark of education and culture. Or perhaps you want to go in another
direction and pick a language spoken by only a small number of people. That
way, just about everybody is on equal footing in having to learn a new and
unfamilar language. And then there are the ad hoc "universal" languages.
Esperanto, anyone?
English would be a poor choice. It's weakly inflected, and has many spelling
irregularities. It is known to be a difficult language for non-native speakers
to master. And without language mastery, one can't express unique and complex
ideas.
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| Re: Is the Eternal September over [message #397870 is a reply to message #397773] |
Thu, 13 August 2020 23:42 |
usenet
Messages: 556
Registered: May 2013
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
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On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 17:37:34 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
> usenet@only.tnx (Questor) writes:
>> On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 16:20:54 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> On 11 Aug 2020 18:37:11 GMT, Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> wrote:
>>>> >On 2020-08-11, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> >>Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>>> >>>I wonder whether the question is moot. How many young people would
>>>> >>>even care about Usenet anymore, even if they knew it existed? The
>>>> >>>fact that Usenet is text-only is enough to drive most of them away.
>>>> >>>"You mean, like, no pictures? No videos? Ewww... gross!"
>>>> >>
>>>> >>That's one of the things I most like about it. If I want pictures I can
>>>> >>always go get them. Let's not even talk about (ugh) videos.
>>>> >
>>>> >Instructional videos are very useful for some things, like how to carry
>>>> >out a certain practical, physical task. But people seem to be way too
>>>> >fond of them, often using them when simple text and maybe a few
>>>> >screenshots/other images would do just fine.
>>>>
>>>> Yep. And they are often also too fond of themselves. Ten minutes of
>>>> some fat slob nattering, 30 seconds of him showing you how to do
>>>> something, probably wrong, and then another ten minutes of fat slob
>>>> nattering.
>>>>
>>>> The ones who know how to plan out what they're going to show and just
>>>> cover the material are gold.
>>>
>>> The absolute best videos on YouTube come from Andrew Camarata.
>>
>> I highly recommend the videos of Mark Rober.
>>
>> Mark Rober is a former NASA engineer whose work includes designing some of the
>> instrumentation for one of the Mars rovers. In addition to showcasing his
>> inventiveness and design skills, the videos' writing, pacing, camera work, and
>> editing are all excellent. Some topics include building a giant super soaker,
>> dropping a car onto a custom trampoline, creating a glitter bomb in response to
>> package thieves, trying to design a squirrel-proof bird feeder, some high-tech
>> Halloween costumes, and explaining how the physics behind seemingly simple
>> carnival games of skill make them so hard to beat. His data-driven approach is
>> interesting, entertaining, and at times informative, and he doesn't get bogged
>> down in the details.
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/c/MarkRober/videos
>
> Hmm, watched "Does Farting Make You Weigh Less?".
> I did not use Google to check the density or air vs methane.
> If I had I would have guessed no, instead I guessed yes.
> I figured they were close.
>
> I also figured there's a certain amount of moisture which would be a lot
> more dense than air. I also figured the fart inside your body is under pressure.
> Mark didn't consider either of these factors.
>
> The fart is going to be at 98F. Mark didn't mention air temperature or
> altitude at all.
>
> Since air density is 1.2 kg/m^3 and methane is .67 kg/m^3 I'm guessing
> he's right.
>
> So, did not subscribe. A bit too simple minded for me.
I think it says something that you picked a fart video on which to judge him.
To anyone else, I would suggest choosing a video where he builds something.
The squirrel video is one of the longest at over twenty minutes, but it has some
excellent slow-motion footage that demonstrates the feats these critters are
capable of, as well as some of the physics involved.
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| Re: Is the Eternal September over [message #397871 is a reply to message #397868] |
Thu, 13 August 2020 23:54 |
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Originally posted by: jtmpreno
On 8/13/2020 8:37 PM, Questor wrote:
> On Thu, 13 Aug 2020 10:46:54 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> writes:
>>> On 2020-08-13, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> 3 days later, and the only reason you can come up with that it's a
>>>> blessing is that you like different languages? I'm curious, why
>>>> do you like not being able to communicate with others? Or do you just
>>>> like the intellectual challenge of being able to learn the few languages
>>>> that you know?
>>>
>>> Are there drawbacks to the wide variety of languages found in the world
>>> today? Certainly.
>>>
>>> However, a language is part of the culture using it, and reflects that
>>> culture in various ways. Removing a language loses us this cultural
>>> signature, essentially destroying information. I think that would be
>>> unfortunate.
>>>
>>> The present order of things, with English as the lingua franca (amusing,
>>> since that means 'French language'), appears to work tolerably. Younger
>>> people seem to have a decent command of English in lots of different
>>> places.
>>
>> Sorry, but I believe that "diversity" argument is weak
>> and counter productive.
>>
>> Years ago, my employer did one of those diversity training
>> things. The speaker went on at length about the beauty of
>> jive talk. Showing how 3 words could express a multitude of
>> ideas depending on the inflection. I think it was "she be gone".
>> Seemed like a bunch of nonsense to me.
>> Speaking clearly and saying what you mean is the way to go.
>>
>> If your language has a unique way of expressing an idea,
>> incorporate it into English (as we've done so often before).
>> There's no reason for anything of value to be lost.
>
>
> I'm guessing you are not a big fan of poetry.
>
>
> As far as tone (inflection), there are many tonal languages, particularly in
> Asia. But the same phenomena exists in English. Consider the following dialog:
>
> A: "I think we should check the foobar valve on the gizmo."
> B: "Right."
>
> Depending on their tone, B's response might mean ready assent, questioning
> hesitation, or even a sarcastic denial.
>
>
> And either you haven't heard of, or don't believe in the Whorfian Hypothesis:
> put simply, the idea that language shapes thought. We see some evidence of that
> in the many terms that English borrows for different concepts. A couple of
> examples: schadenfreude, zeitgeist. Yes, they can be explained in a few words,
> but its not same has having the concept encapsulated in a single word. And how
> many times has it been said of a foreign word or phrase, "there's not an exact
> translation." Puns, double entendres, and other word play are usually specific
> to a language and don't survive when expressed in another. So yes, those
> associations and humor would be lost, as well as a potentially different
> weltanshauung and way of thinking.
>
>
> And what language should be the one language? Mandarin has by far the most
> native speakers. Spanish is second, and is more widespread. English is third,
> but Hindi has almost as many. Even outside of the French colonies, the French
> language was long considered the language of diplomacy, and being fluent in it
> was the mark of education and culture. Or perhaps you want to go in another
> direction and pick a language spoken by only a small number of people. That
> way, just about everybody is on equal footing in having to learn a new and
> unfamilar language. And then there are the ad hoc "universal" languages.
> Esperanto, anyone?
>
> English would be a poor choice. It's weakly inflected, and has many spelling
> irregularities. It is known to be a difficult language for non-native speakers
> to master. And without language mastery, one can't express unique and complex
> ideas.
>
Well into the modern era Latin was the language of scholars.
And yes, Esperato was an attempt to construct a universal secondary
language.
And then there is Klingon, a constructed language that has all of the
properties of a real language.
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| Re: Is the Eternal September over [message #397874 is a reply to message #397871] |
Fri, 14 August 2020 00:03 |
Niklas Karlsson
Messages: 265
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2020-08-14, jtmpreno <none@znet.com> wrote:
>
> And yes, Esperato was an attempt to construct a universal secondary
> language.
Unfortunately flawed in that it was severely biased in favour of
European languages. Of course, Lojban/Loglan doesn't have this flaw.
Niklas
--
"But if you could have removed them at any time..."
"It made everybody feel safer. Besides, I think I kind of liked it after a
while."
-- G'Kar and Lyta (B5) after she breaks her handcuffs upon being released
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| Re: Is the Eternal September over [message #397881 is a reply to message #397868] |
Fri, 14 August 2020 06:14 |
Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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usenet@only.tnx (Questor) writes:
> On Thu, 13 Aug 2020 10:46:54 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> writes:
>>> On 2020-08-13, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> 3 days later, and the only reason you can come up with that it's a
>>>> blessing is that you like different languages? I'm curious, why
>>>> do you like not being able to communicate with others? Or do you just
>>>> like the intellectual challenge of being able to learn the few languages
>>>> that you know?
>>>
>>> Are there drawbacks to the wide variety of languages found in the world
>>> today? Certainly.
>>>
>>> However, a language is part of the culture using it, and reflects that
>>> culture in various ways. Removing a language loses us this cultural
>>> signature, essentially destroying information. I think that would be
>>> unfortunate.
>>>
>>> The present order of things, with English as the lingua franca (amusing,
>>> since that means 'French language'), appears to work tolerably. Younger
>>> people seem to have a decent command of English in lots of different
>>> places.
>>
>> Sorry, but I believe that "diversity" argument is weak
>> and counter productive.
>>
>> Years ago, my employer did one of those diversity training
>> things. The speaker went on at length about the beauty of
>> jive talk. Showing how 3 words could express a multitude of
>> ideas depending on the inflection. I think it was "she be gone".
>> Seemed like a bunch of nonsense to me.
>> Speaking clearly and saying what you mean is the way to go.
>>
>> If your language has a unique way of expressing an idea,
>> incorporate it into English (as we've done so often before).
>> There's no reason for anything of value to be lost.
>
> I'm guessing you are not a big fan of poetry.
Got that right.
But I did like:
Once I pondered weak and weary
over many a quaint and forgotten lore...
Quoth the raven nevermore.
Hey, just looked it up, close.
> As far as tone (inflection), there are many tonal languages, particularly in
> Asia. But the same phenomena exists in English. Consider the following dialog:
>
> A: "I think we should check the foobar valve on the gizmo."
> B: "Right."
>
> Depending on their tone, B's response might mean ready assent, questioning
> hesitation, or even a sarcastic denial.
True, but from what you wrote above it's completely impossible to tell.
It's fun to be sarcastic in speech but the transcripts leave something
to be desired.
> And either you haven't heard of, or don't believe in the Whorfian Hypothesis:
> put simply, the idea that language shapes thought. We see some evidence of that
> in the many terms that English borrows for different concepts. A couple of
> examples: schadenfreude, zeitgeist. Yes, they can be explained in a few words,
> but its not same has having the concept encapsulated in a single word. And how
> many times has it been said of a foreign word or phrase, "there's not an exact
> translation." Puns, double entendres, and other word play are usually specific
> to a language and don't survive when expressed in another. So yes, those
> associations and humor would be lost, as well as a potentially different
> weltanshauung and way of thinking.
Somewhere along the line I said, if your language has unique
ways of expressing things, that can be easily incorporated into English.
> And what language should be the one language? Mandarin has by far the most
> native speakers. Spanish is second, and is more widespread. English is third,
> but Hindi has almost as many. Even outside of the French colonies, the French
> language was long considered the language of diplomacy, and being fluent in it
> was the mark of education and culture. Or perhaps you want to go in another
> direction and pick a language spoken by only a small number of people. That
> way, just about everybody is on equal footing in having to learn a new and
> unfamilar language. And then there are the ad hoc "universal" languages.
> Esperanto, anyone?
>
> English would be a poor choice. It's weakly inflected, and has many spelling
> irregularities. It is known to be a difficult language for non-native speakers
> to master. And without language mastery, one can't express unique and complex
> ideas.
Oh, sure we're all going to start using Esperanto.
Didn't that crash and burn...yep, proposed in 1887.
Hopefully we'll conquer this curse.
I think it's clear English will win out, but I just want the curse to go
away. If there's a better way to reach that end, so be it.
--
Dan Espen
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| Re: Is the Eternal September over [message #397882 is a reply to message #397870] |
Fri, 14 August 2020 06:25 |
Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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usenet@only.tnx (Questor) writes:
> On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 17:37:34 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>> usenet@only.tnx (Questor) writes:
>>> On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 16:20:54 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> > On 11 Aug 2020 18:37:11 GMT, Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> wrote:
>>>> >>On 2020-08-11, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>>> >>>>I wonder whether the question is moot. How many young people would
>>>> >>>>even care about Usenet anymore, even if they knew it existed? The
>>>> >>>>fact that Usenet is text-only is enough to drive most of them away.
>>>> >>>>"You mean, like, no pictures? No videos? Ewww... gross!"
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>That's one of the things I most like about it. If I want pictures I can
>>>> >>>always go get them. Let's not even talk about (ugh) videos.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>Instructional videos are very useful for some things, like how to carry
>>>> >>out a certain practical, physical task. But people seem to be way too
>>>> >>fond of them, often using them when simple text and maybe a few
>>>> >>screenshots/other images would do just fine.
>>>> >
>>>> >Yep. And they are often also too fond of themselves. Ten minutes of
>>>> >some fat slob nattering, 30 seconds of him showing you how to do
>>>> >something, probably wrong, and then another ten minutes of fat slob
>>>> >nattering.
>>>> >
>>>> >The ones who know how to plan out what they're going to show and just
>>>> >cover the material are gold.
>>>>
>>>> The absolute best videos on YouTube come from Andrew Camarata.
>>>
>>> I highly recommend the videos of Mark Rober.
>>>
>>> Mark Rober is a former NASA engineer whose work includes designing some of the
>>> instrumentation for one of the Mars rovers. In addition to showcasing his
>>> inventiveness and design skills, the videos' writing, pacing, camera work, and
>>> editing are all excellent. Some topics include building a giant super soaker,
>>> dropping a car onto a custom trampoline, creating a glitter bomb in response to
>>> package thieves, trying to design a squirrel-proof bird feeder, some high-tech
>>> Halloween costumes, and explaining how the physics behind seemingly simple
>>> carnival games of skill make them so hard to beat. His data-driven approach is
>>> interesting, entertaining, and at times informative, and he doesn't get bogged
>>> down in the details.
>>>
>>> http://www.youtube.com/c/MarkRober/videos
>>
>> Hmm, watched "Does Farting Make You Weigh Less?".
>> I did not use Google to check the density or air vs methane.
>> If I had I would have guessed no, instead I guessed yes.
>> I figured they were close.
>>
>> I also figured there's a certain amount of moisture which would be a lot
>> more dense than air. I also figured the fart inside your body is under pressure.
>> Mark didn't consider either of these factors.
>>
>> The fart is going to be at 98F. Mark didn't mention air temperature or
>> altitude at all.
>>
>> Since air density is 1.2 kg/m^3 and methane is .67 kg/m^3 I'm guessing
>> he's right.
>>
>> So, did not subscribe. A bit too simple minded for me.
>
> I think it says something that you picked a fart video on which to judge him.
> To anyone else, I would suggest choosing a video where he builds something.
> The squirrel video is one of the longest at over twenty minutes, but it has some
> excellent slow-motion footage that demonstrates the feats these critters are
> capable of, as well as some of the physics involved.
I was tempted by the squirrel video but I've battled them myself.
I figured I already knew it was hopeless.
Maybe I'll check.
Years ago I wanted a bird feeder in the yard but I didn't want
a squirrel feeder. After a few attempts I decided, there was no
way a squirrel could get up a smooth half inch metal pole coated in
grease.
Next morning I saw my greased metal pole converted into a mud covered
metal pole with a squirrel throwing seed everywhere.
So, sometimes I enjoy the squirrel launcher videos.
My hero AC builds lots of stuff and gets right to it.
Doesn't talk about it like this guy. Until you see him install
a radio in his truck with a chainsaw you haven't seen anything.
Not sure your guy is in the same league, but like I said,
maybe I'll look again.
--
Dan Espen
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| Re: Is the Eternal September over [message #397885 is a reply to message #397881] |
Fri, 14 August 2020 06:57 |
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 06:14:19 -0400
Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
> I think it's clear English will win out
It looks that way today, but not so long ago French was the lingua
franca, at another time many budding scientists were advised to learn German
in order to keep up with their field. We may yet wind up all speaking Hindi.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
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