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Re: Facebook employees will face pay cuts if they move out of Silicon Valley [message #394836 is a reply to message #394829] |
Sat, 23 May 2020 01:45 |
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4946 Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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On Fri, 22 May 2020 22:21:03 -0400
J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> Tough. If the work is worth 250K a year thent that should be the pay
> no matter where the worker lives. I'd go so far as to say that it
> should even apply to offshored work.
Employers tend to think differently - I need someone to do X, these
two people are qualified and seem competent one wants 250K the other wants
50K - go with the 50K and pocket a bonus.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
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Re: Facebook employees will face pay cuts if they move out of Silicon Valley [message #394931 is a reply to message #394825] |
Mon, 25 May 2020 03:37 |
usenet
Messages: 556 Registered: May 2013
Karma: 0
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On Fri, 22 May 2020 17:21:10 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 22 May 2020 14:29:46 -0700, Peter Flass
>> <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> As we were saying.
>>>
>>> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8348655/Facebook-em ployees-face-pay-cuts-cheaper-areas-work-home.html
>>
>> He's about to find out what causes people to join labor unions.
>
> OTOH there’s a huge difference in living costs. In my old area in upstate
> NY the average house costs under $300,000. We lived in a development
> interwoven with lots of woods and well-maintained hiking trails, and
> relatively little traffic. I forget what the cost of a house mentioned in
> the article was, but it was several times more than that for a comparable
> house on a tiny lot. Gas is also a lot more in California. I know Scott
> likes it, but you can live as well in many areas for 1/4 the salary. We’d
> possibly still be there except we moved to be near family.
And what's the economic base of upstate New York? There's no major extractive
industry, relatively little in the way of natural or cultural attraction, and no
historic population centers. Consequently, there's little demand to live there
and so housing is less expensive. Silicon Valley arising in the Santa Clara
Valley may have been accidental in part, but even had it occured somewhere else,
the region has San Francisco, more dramatic natural attractions, and arguably
better weather, so it would probably still be more popular than upstate
New York.
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Re: Facebook employees will face pay cuts if they move out of Silicon Valley [message #394937 is a reply to message #394931] |
Mon, 25 May 2020 07:33 |
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Originally posted by: Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson
On 25/05/2020 3:37 pm, Questor wrote:
> And what's the economic base of upstate New York? There's no major extractive
> industry, relatively little in the way of natural or cultural attraction, and no
> historic population centers. Consequently, there's little demand to live there
> and so housing is less expensive. Silicon Valley arising in the Santa Clara
> Valley may have been accidental in part, but even had it occured somewhere else,
> the region has San Francisco, more dramatic natural attractions, and arguably
> better weather, so it would probably still be more popular than upstate
> New York.
This may be weering off topic, but as I understand your question, New
York is the centre of the publishing industry, and it may be the centre
of more economic niches not relevant to computing.
--
Johann | email: invalid -> com | www.myrkraverk.com/blog/
I'm not from the Internet, I just work there. | twitter: @myrkraverk
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Re: Facebook employees will face pay cuts if they move out of Silicon Valley [message #394947 is a reply to message #394937] |
Mon, 25 May 2020 12:35 |
John Levine
Messages: 1418 Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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In article <V2OyG.983914$Kji.503531@fx15.am4>,
Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote:
> On 25/05/2020 3:37 pm, Questor wrote:
>> And what's the economic base of upstate New York? There's no major extractive
>> industry, relatively little in the way of natural or cultural attraction, and no
>> historic population centers. ...
> This may be weering off topic, but as I understand your question, New
> York is the centre of the publishing industry, and it may be the centre
> of more economic niches not relevant to computing.
The publishing is downstate in New York City along with banking and finance.
When people say rude things like that here in upstate New York, we educate them
by stuffing them with Buffalo wings and then throw them over Niagara Falls.
--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
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Re: Facebook employees will face pay cuts if they move out of Silicon Valley [message #394948 is a reply to message #394931] |
Mon, 25 May 2020 13:55 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8402 Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Questor <usenet@only.tnx> wrote:
> On Fri, 22 May 2020 17:21:10 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 22 May 2020 14:29:46 -0700, Peter Flass
>>> <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> As we were saying.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8348655/Facebook-em ployees-face-pay-cuts-cheaper-areas-work-home.html
>>>
>>> He's about to find out what causes people to join labor unions.
>>
>> OTOH there’s a huge difference in living costs. In my old area in upstate
>> NY the average house costs under $300,000. We lived in a development
>> interwoven with lots of woods and well-maintained hiking trails, and
>> relatively little traffic. I forget what the cost of a house mentioned in
>> the article was, but it was several times more than that for a comparable
>> house on a tiny lot. Gas is also a lot more in California. I know Scott
>> likes it, but you can live as well in many areas for 1/4 the salary. We’d
>> possibly still be there except we moved to be near family.
>
> And what's the economic base of upstate New York? There's no major extractive
> industry, relatively little in the way of natural or cultural attraction, and no
> historic population centers.
Oh, please. One thing I miss were I am now are exactly those things. No
“extractive”industry but a lot of high-tech manufacturing throughout the
area. Natural attractions? The Adirondacks are larger than many national
parks, and the area is loaded with beautiful lakes, from Lake Champlain and
Lake George to the Finger Lakes and two great lakes. Lots of skiing in the
winter. They have more history than any place outside of Plymouth - Albany
recently celebrated its tricentennial. Saratoga Springs gets the
Philadelphia Orchestra and the New York City Ballet in the summer (besides
the usual muck or rock concerts). Saratoga Race Course has the best horses
and jockeys.
> Consequently, there's little demand to live there
> and so housing is less expensive. Silicon Valley arising in the Santa Clara
> Valley may have been accidental in part, but even had it occured somewhere else,
> the region has San Francisco, more dramatic natural attractions, and arguably
> better weather, so it would probably still be more popular than upstate
> New York.
>
Better weather, but a lot more earthquakes. I agree it would be a wonderful
place to live if it weren’t so crowded.
--
Pete
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Re: Facebook employees will face pay cuts if they move out of Silicon Valley [message #394955 is a reply to message #394947] |
Mon, 25 May 2020 14:37 |
usenet
Messages: 556 Registered: May 2013
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Mon, 25 May 2020 16:35:41 -0000 (UTC), John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
> In article <V2OyG.983914$Kji.503531@fx15.am4>,
> Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote:
>> On 25/05/2020 3:37 pm, Questor wrote:
>>> And what's the economic base of upstate New York? There's no major extractive
>>> industry, relatively little in the way of natural or cultural attraction, and no
>>> historic population centers. ...
>
>> This may be weering off topic, but as I understand your question, New
>> York is the centre of the publishing industry, and it may be the centre
>> of more economic niches not relevant to computing.
>
> The publishing is downstate in New York City along with banking and finance.
>
> When people say rude things like that here in upstate New York, we educate them
> by stuffing them with Buffalo wings and then throw them over Niagara Falls.
Perhaps we need to define terms. When I say upstate New York, I'm thinking of
the Eastern portion of the state, North of I-90 to the Canadian border. There's
the Adirondacks and Lake Champlain, and little else of note. I do not consider
Buffalo or Rochester to be in upstate New York. I am not unappreciative of the
rural parts of the Mid-Atlantic region, but as far as economic activity is
concerned, there isn't that much.
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Re: Facebook employees will face pay cuts if they move out of Silicon Valley [message #394970 is a reply to message #394955] |
Mon, 25 May 2020 18:43 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8402 Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Questor <usenet@only.tnx> wrote:
> On Mon, 25 May 2020 16:35:41 -0000 (UTC), John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
>> In article <V2OyG.983914$Kji.503531@fx15.am4>,
>> Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 25/05/2020 3:37 pm, Questor wrote:
>>>> And what's the economic base of upstate New York? There's no major extractive
>>>> industry, relatively little in the way of natural or cultural attraction, and no
>>>> historic population centers. ...
>>
>>> This may be weering off topic, but as I understand your question, New
>>> York is the centre of the publishing industry, and it may be the centre
>>> of more economic niches not relevant to computing.
>>
>> The publishing is downstate in New York City along with banking and finance.
>>
>> When people say rude things like that here in upstate New York, we educate them
>> by stuffing them with Buffalo wings and then throw them over Niagara Falls.
>
> Perhaps we need to define terms. When I say upstate New York, I'm thinking of
> the Eastern portion of the state, North of I-90 to the Canadian border. There's
> the Adirondacks and Lake Champlain, and little else of note. I do not consider
> Buffalo or Rochester to be in upstate New York. I am not unappreciative of the
> rural parts of the Mid-Atlantic region, but as far as economic activity is
> concerned, there isn't that much.
>
>
Once again, Lake George and Saratoga Springs. North of Glens Falls is all
Adirondack Park, so you wouldn’t expect much there except outdoor
recreation - hiking, mountaineering, skiing, swimming, canoeing, tourism
(Fort William Henry, Fort Ticonderoga, Adirondack Museum, Lake Placid,
Ausable Chasm) etc.
--
Pete
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Re: upstate, Facebook employees will face pay cuts if they move out of Silicon Valley [message #394971 is a reply to message #394955] |
Mon, 25 May 2020 20:23 |
John Levine
Messages: 1418 Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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In article <5ecc1066.7549085@news.dslextreme.com>,
Questor <usenet@only.tnx> wrote:
>> When people say rude things like that here in upstate New York, we educate them
>> by stuffing them with Buffalo wings and then throw them over Niagara Falls.
>
> Perhaps we need to define terms. When I say upstate New York, I'm thinking of
> the Eastern portion of the state, North of I-90 to the Canadian border.
That's an extremely unsusual limited definition of upstate NY. While I
agree that the Adirondack park is part of upstate, most people
consider it to be all of the state more than distance N north or west
of New York City, where N depends on how much of an NYC dweller you
are. My working definition is that it starts where the MTA commuter
rail lines end.
Now back to stuffing you with wings and blue cheese. Or perhaps you'd
prefer spiedies?
--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
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Re: upstate, Facebook employees will face pay cuts if they move out of Silicon Valley [message #394994 is a reply to message #394971] |
Tue, 26 May 2020 10:17 |
scott
Messages: 4272 Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> writes:
> In article <5ecc1066.7549085@news.dslextreme.com>,
> Questor <usenet@only.tnx> wrote:
>>> When people say rude things like that here in upstate New York, we educate them
>>> by stuffing them with Buffalo wings and then throw them over Niagara Falls.
>>
>> Perhaps we need to define terms. When I say upstate New York, I'm thinking of
>> the Eastern portion of the state, North of I-90 to the Canadian border.
>
> That's an extremely unsusual limited definition of upstate NY. While I
> agree that the Adirondack park is part of upstate, most people
> consider it to be all of the state more than distance N north or west
> of New York City, where N depends on how much of an NYC dweller you
> are. My working definition is that it starts where the MTA commuter
> rail lines end.
>
> Now back to stuffing you with wings and blue cheese. Or perhaps you'd
> prefer spiedies?
Or jump across the border for some poutine.
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Re: Facebook employees will face pay cuts if they move out of Silicon Valley [message #394995 is a reply to message #394948] |
Tue, 26 May 2020 10:21 |
scott
Messages: 4272 Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
> Questor <usenet@only.tnx> wrote:
>> On Fri, 22 May 2020 17:21:10 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 22 May 2020 14:29:46 -0700, Peter Flass
>>>> <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > As we were saying.
>>>> >
>>>> > https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8348655/Facebook-em ployees-face-pay-cuts-cheaper-areas-work-home.html
>>>>
>>>> He's about to find out what causes people to join labor unions.
>>>
>>> OTOH there’s a huge difference in living costs. In my old area in upstate
>>> NY the average house costs under $300,000. We lived in a development
>>> interwoven with lots of woods and well-maintained hiking trails, and
>>> relatively little traffic. I forget what the cost of a house mentioned in
>>> the article was, but it was several times more than that for a comparable
>>> house on a tiny lot. Gas is also a lot more in California. I know Scott
>>> likes it, but you can live as well in many areas for 1/4 the salary. We’d
>>> possibly still be there except we moved to be near family.
>>
>> And what's the economic base of upstate New York? There's no major extractive
>> industry, relatively little in the way of natural or cultural attraction, and no
>> historic population centers.
>
> Oh, please. One thing I miss were I am now are exactly those things. No
> “extractive”industry but a lot of high-tech manufacturing throughout the
> area. Natural attractions? The Adirondacks are larger than many national
> parks, and the area is loaded with beautiful lakes, from Lake Champlain and
> Lake George to the Finger Lakes and two great lakes. Lots of skiing in the
> winter. They have more history than any place outside of Plymouth - Albany
> recently celebrated its tricentennial. Saratoga Springs gets the
> Philadelphia Orchestra and the New York City Ballet in the summer (besides
> the usual muck or rock concerts). Saratoga Race Course has the best horses
> and jockeys.
One word: Mosquitos.
Another word: Winter, (lake effect snow)
I'll take coastal california anyday.
>
>> Consequently, there's little demand to live there
>> and so housing is less expensive. Silicon Valley arising in the Santa Clara
>> Valley may have been accidental in part, but even had it occured somewhere else,
>> the region has San Francisco, more dramatic natural attractions, and arguably
>> better weather, so it would probably still be more popular than upstate
>> New York.
>>
>
> Better weather, but a lot more earthquakes. I agree it would be a wonderful
> place to live if it weren’t so crowded.
It's a huge state, and not at all crowded outside of LA and SF. I've experienced
two major earthquakes since 1983 (1987 Wittier Narrows and 1989 Loma Prieta)
and two or three much smaller (no damage) quakes. One major quake every
two decades doesn't seem that bad to me compared to feet of snow for several
months every year.
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Re: wimps, was Facebook employees will face pay cuts [message #395004 is a reply to message #394995] |
Tue, 26 May 2020 12:49 |
John Levine
Messages: 1418 Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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In article <GB9zG.61699$1y4.33292@fx23.iad>,
Scott Lurndal <slp53@pacbell.net> wrote:
>> Oh, please. One thing I miss were I am now are exactly those things. No
>> “extractive”industry but a lot of high-tech manufacturing throughout the
>> area. Natural attractions? The Adirondacks are larger than many national
>> parks, and the area is loaded with beautiful lakes, from Lake Champlain and
>> Lake George to the Finger Lakes and two great lakes. Lots of skiing in the
>> winter. They have more history than any place outside of Plymouth - Albany
>> recently celebrated its tricentennial. Saratoga Springs gets the
>> Philadelphia Orchestra and the New York City Ballet in the summer (besides
>> the usual muck or rock concerts). Saratoga Race Course has the best horses
>> and jockeys.
>
> One word: Mosquitos.
> Another word: Winter, (lake effect snow)
You really need to get around more. Lake effect is only close to Lakes
Erie and Ontario, which means north of the Thruway and east of I-81.
Here in the Finger Lakes or the Southern Tier it's no big deal. Ditto
mosquitoes which are bad if you're out in the Adirondack park, not
here. If only the wine were better it'd be idyllic. (For some reason,
the wine here in the Finger Lakes is at best so-so while in Canada
north of Niagara Falls some is amazingly good, not just ice wine, but
it all goes to Toronto and you never see it in the U.S.)
> I'll take coastal California anyday.
Thanks, but I've been there. I'll stick with my nice house in a
post-war development.
That would be the Civil war, of course.
--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
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Re: upstate, Facebook employees will face pay cuts if they move out of Silicon Valley [message #395006 is a reply to message #394971] |
Tue, 26 May 2020 15:56 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8402 Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
> In article <5ecc1066.7549085@news.dslextreme.com>,
> Questor <usenet@only.tnx> wrote:
>>> When people say rude things like that here in upstate New York, we educate them
>>> by stuffing them with Buffalo wings and then throw them over Niagara Falls.
>>
>> Perhaps we need to define terms. When I say upstate New York, I'm thinking of
>> the Eastern portion of the state, North of I-90 to the Canadian border.
>
> That's an extremely unsusual limited definition of upstate NY. While I
> agree that the Adirondack park is part of upstate, most people
> consider it to be all of the state more than distance N north or west
> of New York City, where N depends on how much of an NYC dweller you
> are. My working definition is that it starts where the MTA commuter
> rail lines end.
>
Sounds plausible.
> Now back to stuffing you with wings and blue cheese. Or perhaps you'd
> prefer spiedies?
>
>
>
>
--
Pete
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Re: Facebook employees will face pay cuts if they move out of Silicon Valley [message #395007 is a reply to message #394995] |
Tue, 26 May 2020 15:56 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8402 Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>> Questor <usenet@only.tnx> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 22 May 2020 17:21:10 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> > On Fri, 22 May 2020 14:29:46 -0700, Peter Flass
>>>> > <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> As we were saying.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8348655/Facebook-em ployees-face-pay-cuts-cheaper-areas-work-home.html
>>>> >
>>>> > He's about to find out what causes people to join labor unions.
>>>>
>>>> OTOH there’s a huge difference in living costs. In my old area in upstate
>>>> NY the average house costs under $300,000. We lived in a development
>>>> interwoven with lots of woods and well-maintained hiking trails, and
>>>> relatively little traffic. I forget what the cost of a house mentioned in
>>>> the article was, but it was several times more than that for a comparable
>>>> house on a tiny lot. Gas is also a lot more in California. I know Scott
>>>> likes it, but you can live as well in many areas for 1/4 the salary. We’d
>>>> possibly still be there except we moved to be near family.
>>>
>>> And what's the economic base of upstate New York? There's no major extractive
>>> industry, relatively little in the way of natural or cultural attraction, and no
>>> historic population centers.
>>
>> Oh, please. One thing I miss were I am now are exactly those things. No
>> “extractive”industry but a lot of high-tech manufacturing throughout the
>> area. Natural attractions? The Adirondacks are larger than many national
>> parks, and the area is loaded with beautiful lakes, from Lake Champlain and
>> Lake George to the Finger Lakes and two great lakes. Lots of skiing in the
>> winter. They have more history than any place outside of Plymouth - Albany
>> recently celebrated its tricentennial. Saratoga Springs gets the
>> Philadelphia Orchestra and the New York City Ballet in the summer (besides
>> the usual muck or rock concerts). Saratoga Race Course has the best horses
>> and jockeys.
>
> One word: Mosquitos.
> Another word: Winter, (lake effect snow)
>
> I'll take coastal california anyday.
>
>>
>>> Consequently, there's little demand to live there
>>> and so housing is less expensive. Silicon Valley arising in the Santa Clara
>>> Valley may have been accidental in part, but even had it occured somewhere else,
>>> the region has San Francisco, more dramatic natural attractions, and arguably
>>> better weather, so it would probably still be more popular than upstate
>>> New York.
>>>
>>
>> Better weather, but a lot more earthquakes. I agree it would be a wonderful
>> place to live if it weren’t so crowded.
>
> It's a huge state, and not at all crowded outside of LA and SF. I've experienced
> two major earthquakes since 1983 (1987 Wittier Narrows and 1989 Loma Prieta)
> and two or three much smaller (no damage) quakes. One major quake every
> two decades doesn't seem that bad to me compared to feet of snow for several
> months every year.
>
Brush fires, too.
This is a case of different strokes for different folks. Partly it’s what
you’re used to, and partly on how you weigh the various costs and benefits.
Someone from NYC who values being able to walk to restaurants and clubs
would probably not be happy anywhere else, for example.
--
Pete
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Re: Facebook employees will face pay cuts if they move out of Silicon Valley [message #395008 is a reply to message #394999] |
Tue, 26 May 2020 15:56 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8402 Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> On Tue, 26 May 2020 14:21:26 GMT
> scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:
>
>> One major quake every
>> two decades doesn't seem that bad to me compared to feet of snow for
>> several months every year.
>
> I'll take 300 days with rain a year, almost no snow and an
> occasional quake that can only be detected with instruments over either of
> those options.
>
British Columbia?
I’ll take 360 days of sun a year, but I’ve spent some time in California
and mostly lived in Upstate NY, and every place seems to have its good and
bad points.
--
Pete
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Re: Facebook employees will face pay cuts if they move out of Silicon Valley [message #395016 is a reply to message #395008] |
Tue, 26 May 2020 20:09 |
Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5354 Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2020-05-26, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 26 May 2020 14:21:26 GMT
>> scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:
>>
>>> One major quake every
>>> two decades doesn't seem that bad to me compared to feet of snow for
>>> several months every year.
>>
>> I'll take 300 days with rain a year, almost no snow and an
>> occasional quake that can only be detected with instruments over either of
>> those options.
>
> British Columbia?
> I’ll take 360 days of sun a year, but I’ve spent some time in California
> and mostly lived in Upstate NY, and every place seems to have its good and
> bad points.
I once saw a T-shirt at a local shop:
FIRST VANCOUVER RAIN FESTIVAL
[insert clever graphic]
SEPTEMBER 1 - AUGUST 31
As the saying goes, in Vancouver you don't tan, you rust.
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.
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Re: upstate, Facebook employees will face pay cuts if they move out of Silicon Valley [message #395024 is a reply to message #394971] |
Wed, 27 May 2020 02:36 |
usenet
Messages: 556 Registered: May 2013
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Tue, 26 May 2020 00:23:07 -0000 (UTC), John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
> In article <5ecc1066.7549085@news.dslextreme.com>,
> Questor <usenet@only.tnx> wrote:
>>> When people say rude things like that here in upstate New York, we educate them
>>> by stuffing them with Buffalo wings and then throw them over Niagara Falls.
>>
>> Perhaps we need to define terms. When I say upstate New York, I'm thinking of
>> the Eastern portion of the state, North of I-90 to the Canadian border.
>
> That's an extremely unsusual limited definition of upstate NY. While I
> agree that the Adirondack park is part of upstate, most people
> consider it to be all of the state more than distance N north or west
> of New York City, where N depends on how much of an NYC dweller you
> are. My working definition is that it starts where the MTA commuter
> rail lines end.
While I recognize that some New York City dwellers might consider Westchester to
be "upstate," your definition is little better. (I believe that Poughkeepsie,
barely ninety miles from NYC, is where the rail line ends.) If nearly the whole
state is "upstate," then there's little difference between New York and Upstate
New York, and the distinction becomes meaningless. It's like saying anything
outside of Troy is Western New York, or anything outside of San Diego is
Northern California. By your logic, you actually live in downstate New York,
according to residents in Malone.
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Re: Facebook employees will face pay cuts if they move out of Silicon Valley [message #395025 is a reply to message #394948] |
Wed, 27 May 2020 02:38 |
usenet
Messages: 556 Registered: May 2013
Karma: 0
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On Mon, 25 May 2020 10:55:46 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Questor <usenet@only.tnx> wrote:
>> On Fri, 22 May 2020 17:21:10 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 22 May 2020 14:29:46 -0700, Peter Flass
>>>> <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> >As we were saying.
>>>> >
>>>> > https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8348655/Facebook-em ployees-face-pay-cuts-cheaper-areas-work-home.html
>>>>
>>>> He's about to find out what causes people to join labor unions.
>>>
>>> OTOH there's a huge difference in living costs. In my old area in upstate
>>> NY the average house costs under $300,000. We lived in a development
>>> interwoven with lots of woods and well-maintained hiking trails, and
>>> relatively little traffic. I forget what the cost of a house mentioned in
>>> the article was, but it was several times more than that for a comparable
>>> house on a tiny lot. Gas is also a lot more in California. I know Scott
>>> likes it, but you can live as well in many areas for 1/4 the salary. We’d
>>> possibly still be there except we moved to be near family.
>>
>> And what's the economic base of upstate New York? There's no major extractive
>> industry, relatively little in the way of natural or cultural attraction, and no
>> historic population centers.
>
> Oh, please. One thing I miss where I am now are exactly those things. No
> "extractive" industry but a lot of high-tech manufacturing throughout the
> area. Natural attractions? The Adirondacks are larger than many national
> parks, and the area is loaded with beautiful lakes, from Lake Champlain and
> Lake George to the Finger Lakes and two great lakes. Lots of skiing in the
> winter. They have more history than any place outside of Plymouth - Albany
> recently celebrated its tricentennial. Saratoga Springs gets the
> Philadelphia Orchestra and the New York City Ballet in the summer (besides
> the usual muck or rock concerts). Saratoga Race Course has the best horses
> and jockeys.
Those might be attractive qualities to you, and perhaps even myself, but the
proof is in the pudding. The fact is that large numbers of people are not
moving to Saratoga Springs or Utica. They do move to places like the San
Francisco Bay Area, Boston, Seattle, or Las Vegas, because, again, those
locations have a significant economic base and provide a lot of job
opportunities.
San Francisco, redwood forests, and the California coast are visited by people
from around the world who travel there specifically to see them. I doubt you
could say that about the Adironacks, nice as they are. And there's simply no
comparison between the arts community in the Bay Area versus what can be found
in upstate New York. You're confusing "history" with "historic population
centers," and I admit that San Francisco does not have the same lengthy history
that parts of New York has. But Virginia, New Jersey, and Massachusetts all
have many more historic sites than New York, apart from New York City.
>> Consequently, there's little demand to live there
>> and so housing is less expensive. Silicon Valley arising in the Santa Clara
>> Valley may have been accidental in part, but even had it occured somewhere else,
>> the region has San Francisco, more dramatic natural attractions, and arguably
>> better weather, so it would probably still be more popular than upstate
>> New York.
>
> Better weather, but a lot more earthquakes. I agree it would be a wonderful
> place to live if it weren't so crowded.
Blizzards and ice storms. The effects from earthquakes are largely localized,
ranging a few tens of miles, and most people are not adversely affected. They
can get on with their business in short order, if not immediately. Blizzards
extend for hundreds of miles, everyone is impacted, and it can take days to dig
out.
As mentioned elsewhere: mosquitos. Mosquitos in the East are markedly more
numerous and aggressive than on the West Coast. And let's not forget black
flies. And now there are ticks carrying Lyme Disease. I don't think that's
spread to West Coast yet. Insects are simply not as much nuisance in the West
as they are in the East.
Mind you, I'm not trying to start an East vs. West debate here. I'm
specifically comparing the San Francisco Bay Area to upstate New York (mostly as
I define it.) As a counter example, the greater Boston area compares favorably.
The mountains in Vermont and New Hampshire are within striking distance, there's
the ocean, and Boston has intellectual and cultural attractions up the yin-yang.
The fall foliage is spectacularly beautiful.
But no one should be puzzling over why the San Francisco Bay Area is more
popular than upstate New York.
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Re: Facebook employees will face pay cuts if they move out of Silicon Valley [message #395034 is a reply to message #395025] |
Wed, 27 May 2020 09:50 |
scott
Messages: 4272 Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
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usenet@only.tnx (Questor) writes:
> On Mon, 25 May 2020 10:55:46 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> Oh, please. One thing I miss where I am now are exactly those things. No
>> "extractive" industry but a lot of high-tech manufacturing throughout the
>> area. Natural attractions? The Adirondacks are larger than many national
>> parks, and the area is loaded with beautiful lakes, from Lake Champlain and
>> Lake George to the Finger Lakes and two great lakes. Lots of skiing in the
>> winter. They have more history than any place outside of Plymouth - Albany
>> recently celebrated its tricentennial. Saratoga Springs gets the
>> Philadelphia Orchestra and the New York City Ballet in the summer (besides
>> the usual muck or rock concerts). Saratoga Race Course has the best horses
>> and jockeys.
>
> Those might be attractive qualities to you, and perhaps even myself, but the
> proof is in the pudding. The fact is that large numbers of people are not
> moving to Saratoga Springs or Utica. They do move to places like the San
> Francisco Bay Area, Boston, Seattle, or Las Vegas, because, again, those
> locations have a significant economic base and provide a lot of job
> opportunities.
>
> San Francisco, redwood forests, and the California coast are visited by people
> from around the world who travel there specifically to see them. I doubt you
> could say that about the Adironacks, nice as they are. And there's simply no
> comparison between the arts community in the Bay Area versus what can be found
> in upstate New York. You're confusing "history" with "historic population
> centers," and I admit that San Francisco does not have the same lengthy history
> that parts of New York has. But Virginia, New Jersey, and Massachusetts all
> have many more historic sites than New York, apart from New York City.
And indeed, the history of San Francisco is longer than one might think;
Fra Serra died in Carmel-by-the-sea in 1784 after establishing missions
all along the coast (including in San Francisco).
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Re: Facebook employees will face pay cuts if they move out of Silicon Valley [message #395038 is a reply to message #395034] |
Wed, 27 May 2020 12:16 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8402 Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
> usenet@only.tnx (Questor) writes:
>> On Mon, 25 May 2020 10:55:46 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Oh, please. One thing I miss where I am now are exactly those things. No
>>> "extractive" industry but a lot of high-tech manufacturing throughout the
>>> area. Natural attractions? The Adirondacks are larger than many national
>>> parks, and the area is loaded with beautiful lakes, from Lake Champlain and
>>> Lake George to the Finger Lakes and two great lakes. Lots of skiing in the
>>> winter. They have more history than any place outside of Plymouth - Albany
>>> recently celebrated its tricentennial. Saratoga Springs gets the
>>> Philadelphia Orchestra and the New York City Ballet in the summer (besides
>>> the usual muck or rock concerts). Saratoga Race Course has the best horses
>>> and jockeys.
>>
>> Those might be attractive qualities to you, and perhaps even myself, but the
>> proof is in the pudding. The fact is that large numbers of people are not
>> moving to Saratoga Springs or Utica. They do move to places like the San
>> Francisco Bay Area, Boston, Seattle, or Las Vegas, because, again, those
>> locations have a significant economic base and provide a lot of job
>> opportunities.
>>
>> San Francisco, redwood forests, and the California coast are visited by people
>> from around the world who travel there specifically to see them. I doubt you
>> could say that about the Adironacks, nice as they are. And there's simply no
>> comparison between the arts community in the Bay Area versus what can be found
>> in upstate New York. You're confusing "history" with "historic population
>> centers," and I admit that San Francisco does not have the same lengthy history
>> that parts of New York has. But Virginia, New Jersey, and Massachusetts all
>> have many more historic sites than New York, apart from New York City.
>
> And indeed, the history of San Francisco is longer than one might think;
> Fra Serra died in Carmel-by-the-sea in 1784 after establishing missions
> all along the coast (including in San Francisco).
>
>
1784? Fagh, just yesterday. That was when the Revolutionary War ended,
IIRC. Of course by European standards all of the US is just yesterday.
--
Pete
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Re: yesterday, Facebook employees will face pay cuts if they move out of Silicon Valley [message #395048 is a reply to message #395038] |
Wed, 27 May 2020 16:25 |
John Levine
Messages: 1418 Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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In article <1263777730.612288505.967972.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org>,
Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> And indeed, the history of San Francisco is longer than one might think;
>> Fra Serra died in Carmel-by-the-sea in 1784 after establishing missions
>> all along the coast (including in San Francisco). ...
> 1784? Fagh, just yesterday. That was when the Revolutionary War ended,
> IIRC. Of course by European standards all of the US is just yesterday.
It depends where you are. St Augustine FL has been continuously
occupied by Europeans and their descendants since 1565, Santa Fe NM
since 1610, and New York City since 1614. That's not like most
European towns where the usual answer to "how long has this town been
here?" is either "it's always been here" or "since the Romans camped
here" but it's several centuries older than most of the U.S.
In Santa Fe I gather it leads to a certain amount of reverse "go back
where you came from" snark since the oldest families are all Latino.
--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
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Re: Facebook employees will face pay cuts if they move out of Silicon Valley [message #395050 is a reply to message #395038] |
Wed, 27 May 2020 16:57 |
Jorgen Grahn
Messages: 606 Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Wed, 2020-05-27, Peter Flass wrote:
....
> 1784? Fagh, just yesterday. That was when the Revolutionary War ended,
> IIRC. Of course by European standards all of the US is just yesterday.
You don't notice it much in Europe though, not in my part anyway.
The average church is from the 12th century, but typically heavily
reworked in the 19th. "Old" buildings are from the late 19th century,
and the landscape changed completely during the 20th century.
/Jorgen
--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
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Re: yesterday, Facebook employees will face pay cuts if they move out of Silicon Valley [message #395053 is a reply to message #395048] |
Wed, 27 May 2020 18:11 |
Mike Spencer
Messages: 1004 Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> writes:
> In Santa Fe I gather it leads to a certain amount of reverse "go back
> where you came from" snark since the oldest families are all Latino.
In Neal Stephenson's _Cryptonomicon_ (circa 1990s) there is a charcter
said to be from a southwestern community of Jews who have been there
forever, "look like Indians and talk like cowboys." In the same
author's Baroque Cycle, a Jewish character, having survived the
Inquisition in Mexico City (circa 1698), is bound for the "north" where
there is said to be a community of fellow Jews.
I have no idea of the historicity of this but such a 17th c.
Indian/Latino/Jewish community antedates the conventional notion of
"westward expansion".
--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
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Re: yesterday, Facebook employees will face pay cuts if they move out of Silicon Valley [message #395055 is a reply to message #395053] |
Wed, 27 May 2020 19:40 |
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Originally posted by: JimP
On 27 May 2020 19:11:45 -0300, Mike Spencer
<mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>
> John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> writes:
>
>> In Santa Fe I gather it leads to a certain amount of reverse "go back
>> where you came from" snark since the oldest families are all Latino.
>
> In Neal Stephenson's _Cryptonomicon_ (circa 1990s) there is a charcter
> said to be from a southwestern community of Jews who have been there
> forever, "look like Indians and talk like cowboys." In the same
> author's Baroque Cycle, a Jewish character, having survived the
> Inquisition in Mexico City (circa 1698), is bound for the "north" where
> there is said to be a community of fellow Jews.
>
> I have no idea of the historicity of this but such a 17th c.
> Indian/Latino/Jewish community antedates the conventional notion of
> "westward expansion".
Actually the oldest families would be Native Americans.
--
Jim
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Re: upstate, Facebook employees will face pay cuts if they move out of Silicon Valley [message #395062 is a reply to message #394971] |
Thu, 28 May 2020 02:25 |
|
Originally posted by: David Lesher
John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> writes:
> In article <5ecc1066.7549085@news.dslextreme.com>,
> Questor <usenet@only.tnx> wrote:
>>> When people say rude things like that here in upstate New York, we educate them
>>> by stuffing them with Buffalo wings and then throw them over Niagara Falls.
>>
>> Perhaps we need to define terms. When I say upstate New York, I'm thinking of
>> the Eastern portion of the state, North of I-90 to the Canadian border.
> That's an extremely unsusual limited definition of upstate NY. While I
> agree that the Adirondack park is part of upstate, most people
> consider it to be all of the state more than distance N north or west
> of New York City, where N depends on how much of an NYC dweller you
> are. My working definition is that it starts where the MTA commuter
> rail lines end.
> Now back to stuffing you with wings and blue cheese. Or perhaps you'd
> prefer spiedies?
Not Lutefisk???
--
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close..........................
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
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Re: Facebook employees will face pay cuts if they move out of Silicon Valley [message #395073 is a reply to message #395050] |
Thu, 28 May 2020 09:11 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8402 Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> wrote:
> On Wed, 2020-05-27, Peter Flass wrote:
> ...
>> 1784? Fagh, just yesterday. That was when the Revolutionary War ended,
>> IIRC. Of course by European standards all of the US is just yesterday.
>
> You don't notice it much in Europe though, not in my part anyway.
> The average church is from the 12th century, but typically heavily
> reworked in the 19th. "Old" buildings are from the late 19th century,
> and the landscape changed completely during the 20th century.
>
A lot of it got urban renewal during the 40s.
--
Pete
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Re: yesterday, Facebook employees will face pay cuts if they move out of Silicon Valley [message #395074 is a reply to message #395053] |
Thu, 28 May 2020 09:11 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8402 Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>
> John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> writes:
>
>> In Santa Fe I gather it leads to a certain amount of reverse "go back
>> where you came from" snark since the oldest families are all Latino.
>
> In Neal Stephenson's _Cryptonomicon_ (circa 1990s) there is a charcter
> said to be from a southwestern community of Jews who have been there
> forever, "look like Indians and talk like cowboys." In the same
> author's Baroque Cycle, a Jewish character, having survived the
> Inquisition in Mexico City (circa 1698), is bound for the "north" where
> there is said to be a community of fellow Jews.
>
> I have no idea of the historicity of this but such a 17th c.
> Indian/Latino/Jewish community antedates the conventional notion of
> "westward expansion".
>
Somebody, maybe National Geographic, came across a community in isolated
rural New Mexico where the people observe many Jewish traditions without
realizing where they came from. Their ancestors hid being Jewish so well
that their descendants didn’t even know.
--
Pete
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Re: upstate, Facebook employees will face pay cuts if they move out of Silicon Valley [message #395075 is a reply to message #395062] |
Thu, 28 May 2020 09:11 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8402 Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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David Lesher <wb8foz@panix.com> wrote:
> John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> writes:
>
>> In article <5ecc1066.7549085@news.dslextreme.com>,
>> Questor <usenet@only.tnx> wrote:
>>>> When people say rude things like that here in upstate New York, we educate them
>>>> by stuffing them with Buffalo wings and then throw them over Niagara Falls.
>>>
>>> Perhaps we need to define terms. When I say upstate New York, I'm thinking of
>>> the Eastern portion of the state, North of I-90 to the Canadian border.
>
>> That's an extremely unsusual limited definition of upstate NY. While I
>> agree that the Adirondack park is part of upstate, most people
>> consider it to be all of the state more than distance N north or west
>> of New York City, where N depends on how much of an NYC dweller you
>> are. My working definition is that it starts where the MTA commuter
>> rail lines end.
>
>> Now back to stuffing you with wings and blue cheese. Or perhaps you'd
>> prefer spiedies?
>
> Not Lutefisk???
>
That’s Minnesota.
--
Pete
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Re: Facebook employees will face pay cuts if they move out of Silicon Valley [message #395078 is a reply to message #395073] |
Thu, 28 May 2020 09:34 |
|
Originally posted by: snipeco.2
Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> wrote:
>> On Wed, 2020-05-27, Peter Flass wrote:
>> ...
>>> 1784? Fagh, just yesterday. That was when the Revolutionary War ended,
>>> IIRC. Of course by European standards all of the US is just yesterday.
>>
>> You don't notice it much in Europe though, not in my part anyway.
>> The average church is from the 12th century, but typically heavily
>> reworked in the 19th. "Old" buildings are from the late 19th century,
>> and the landscape changed completely during the 20th century.
>>
>
> A lot of it got urban renewal during the 40s.
>
A few years ago Winchester Cathedral in England was covered in
scaffolding while it had its first ever scrub-down to remove a
hundred years or so of Industrial Age grime and soot staining.
An American tourist asked me "How often do they do that?
I answered "About every three hundred years or so".
--
^Ï^ <https://youtu.be/_kqytf31a8E>
My pet rock Gordon just is.
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