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Just tried cleaning my Wishbringer floppy [message #394717] Tue, 19 May 2020 23:21 Go to next message
anthonypaulo is currently offline  anthonypaulo
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I think I pressed a little too hard while wiping vertically across the tracks because I suddenly saw a streak on the floppy and some rust colored pieces of residue on my microfiber cloth. Was this inevitable or am I doing it wrong?
Re: Just tried cleaning my Wishbringer floppy [message #394777 is a reply to message #394717] Thu, 21 May 2020 14:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: JoeyX

On Tue, 19 May 2020 20:21:12 -0700, Anthony Ortiz wrote:

> I think I pressed a little too hard while wiping vertically across the
> tracks because I suddenly saw a streak on the floppy and some rust
> colored pieces of residue on my microfiber cloth. Was this inevitable or
> am I doing it wrong?

You wiped the emulsion off of the surface of the disk. I work a lot with
preserving old floppy media, and some of the "cheaper" disks fail like
this depending on how they're stored (out in a barn or a shed VS. a
climate controlled closet, for example).

The bad news is that your floppy is toast. There is no way to repair that
type of damage. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. :(
Re: Just tried cleaning my Wishbringer floppy [message #394779 is a reply to message #394717] Thu, 21 May 2020 15:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tempest is currently offline  Tempest
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If you want, make a new copy of Wishbringer using a 4am release image (it's basically the same as the retail version), cut open the jacket, put the new medial in the jacket, and seal it up. I've done this before with some dead floppies I have. The hard part is resealing the jacket.
Re: Just tried cleaning my Wishbringer floppy [message #394780 is a reply to message #394777] Thu, 21 May 2020 16:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
anthonypaulo is currently offline  anthonypaulo
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Registered: September 2013
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On Thursday, May 21, 2020 at 2:58:10 PM UTC-4, JoeyX wrote:
> On Tue, 19 May 2020 20:21:12 -0700, Anthony Ortiz wrote:
>
>> I think I pressed a little too hard while wiping vertically across the
>> tracks because I suddenly saw a streak on the floppy and some rust
>> colored pieces of residue on my microfiber cloth. Was this inevitable or
>> am I doing it wrong?
>
> You wiped the emulsion off of the surface of the disk. I work a lot with
> preserving old floppy media, and some of the "cheaper" disks fail like
> this depending on how they're stored (out in a barn or a shed VS. a
> climate controlled closet, for example).
>
> The bad news is that your floppy is toast. There is no way to repair that
> type of damage. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. :(

I have other floppies I would like to clean, such as four double-sided Ultima disks and the rest of the series plus Infocom classics; starting to get my 7-yr old son into it and I want him to have the floppy disk experience.

Any recommendations/tips on the proper way to clean these floppies?
Re: Just tried cleaning my Wishbringer floppy [message #394781 is a reply to message #394779] Thu, 21 May 2020 16:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
anthonypaulo is currently offline  anthonypaulo
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Registered: September 2013
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On Thursday, May 21, 2020 at 3:33:22 PM UTC-4, Tempest wrote:
> If you want, make a new copy of Wishbringer using a 4am release image (it's basically the same as the retail version), cut open the jacket, put the new medial in the jacket, and seal it up. I've done this before with some dead floppies I have. The hard part is resealing the jacket.

Yeah, but I don't want to ruin the disks, sealing them back up as original would be a problem... who knows, I may have to resort to this anyway.
Re: Just tried cleaning my Wishbringer floppy [message #394782 is a reply to message #394781] Thu, 21 May 2020 17:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tempest is currently offline  Tempest
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I've also resorted to heating up and removing the label and putting it on a blank disk. You've got to be super careful when removing the label though.
Re: Just tried cleaning my Wishbringer floppy [message #394783 is a reply to message #394780] Thu, 21 May 2020 17:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: JoeyX

On Thu, 21 May 2020 13:01:46 -0700, Anthony Ortiz wrote:

> On Thursday, May 21, 2020 at 2:58:10 PM UTC-4, JoeyX wrote:
>> On Tue, 19 May 2020 20:21:12 -0700, Anthony Ortiz wrote:
>>
>>> I think I pressed a little too hard while wiping vertically across
>>> the tracks because I suddenly saw a streak on the floppy and some
>>> rust colored pieces of residue on my microfiber cloth. Was this
>>> inevitable or am I doing it wrong?
>>
>> You wiped the emulsion off of the surface of the disk. I work a lot
>> with preserving old floppy media, and some of the "cheaper" disks fail
>> like this depending on how they're stored (out in a barn or a shed VS.
>> a climate controlled closet, for example).
>>
>> The bad news is that your floppy is toast. There is no way to repair
>> that type of damage. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. :(
>
> I have other floppies I would like to clean, such as four double-sided
> Ultima disks and the rest of the series plus Infocom classics; starting
> to get my 7-yr old son into it and I want him to have the floppy disk
> experience.
>
> Any recommendations/tips on the proper way to clean these floppies?

Well, I need to ask just for drill-- Is there a reason why they need to
be cleaned? If they are infested with mold or mildew, this can be
impossible to repair, especially if it has weakened the emulsion on the
floppy disk. If they are otherwise clean but just won't boot on the
Apple, the drive heads might need a wipe down or some other repair.

When I get a batch of disks for preservation, I look for a mildew film
over the surface of the disk before I even put it in my drive (the
surface will look spotty or dull). Additionally, I will try to manually
spin the disk inside the jacket manually and see if it spins somewhat
freely. That film usually means that the Mylar / cotton inside the floppy
is also funky, and if it's tough or impossible to spin, the mold or
mildew has very likely "fused" the cotton and the magnetic disk together.

I have pulled apart floppies that were black from mold on the inside and
smelled like the damp basement of a 200 year old building. These are BAD
signs.

If you see the film or smell a funk, the disk is a loss at this point.
There is no way to repair this disk that I am aware of. Once the mold has
gotten in to the disk liner (and if you don't want to open the disk
jacket to pull the magnetic disk inside out to clean), you might as well
throw it away.

The way I extract information from a disk damaged in this way is that I
break open the disk jacket, pull the magnetic disk out, and soak it in
rubbing alcohol for a few minutes. I then rub it gently with a cotton
ball as to not pull the emulsion from the disk (I learned a few very hard
lessons ruining some irreplaceable data by wrecking the emulsion using
paper towels), and visually inspect the surface to see if the film or
spots are gone. If not, I repeat the process.

Once the disk is clean, I put it in a donor floppy jacket and try to
extract the data that way. I have a success rate of about 90% as long as
I am diligent and careful in the cleaning process.

I then throw the magnetic disk and the jacket away. I would NOT recommend
using a disk cleaned in this way ever again. It's likely on borrowed
time, even if you put the magnetic disk in a donor jacket. That mold and
mildew likely did damage the emulsion, and it'll very possibly start to
flake off the surface very soon.

One other thing-- If you haven't done so already, check the caps (or
simply replace) on the power supply ASAP. If you stored THAT in a damp or
dank place, it's likely on borrowed time as well. Caps are cheap, and if
you know how to solder, it might make a fun project on a rainy afternoon
to enjoy with your kid(s). If you want to replace it, these are available
on various websites for 60-80 USD and is easy to replace-- All you need
is a screwdriver and about an hour of your time (if you're an
overcautious novice). Otherwise, you might get that "pop" and all of the
stinky magic smoke will pour from the top and the back slots.

Anyway, best of luck to you. If you want to replace your originals,
there's always eBay, or I frequently buy out lots that have scads of
originals.

Cheers--
Re: Just tried cleaning my Wishbringer floppy [message #394792 is a reply to message #394783] Thu, 21 May 2020 21:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
anthonypaulo is currently offline  anthonypaulo
Messages: 531
Registered: September 2013
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Thursday, May 21, 2020 at 5:12:59 PM UTC-4, JoeyX wrote:
> On Thu, 21 May 2020 13:01:46 -0700, Anthony Ortiz wrote:
>
>> On Thursday, May 21, 2020 at 2:58:10 PM UTC-4, JoeyX wrote:
>>> On Tue, 19 May 2020 20:21:12 -0700, Anthony Ortiz wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think I pressed a little too hard while wiping vertically across
>>>> the tracks because I suddenly saw a streak on the floppy and some
>>>> rust colored pieces of residue on my microfiber cloth. Was this
>>>> inevitable or am I doing it wrong?
>>>
>>> You wiped the emulsion off of the surface of the disk. I work a lot
>>> with preserving old floppy media, and some of the "cheaper" disks fail
>>> like this depending on how they're stored (out in a barn or a shed VS.
>>> a climate controlled closet, for example).
>>>
>>> The bad news is that your floppy is toast. There is no way to repair
>>> that type of damage. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. :(
>>
>> I have other floppies I would like to clean, such as four double-sided
>> Ultima disks and the rest of the series plus Infocom classics; starting
>> to get my 7-yr old son into it and I want him to have the floppy disk
>> experience.
>>
>> Any recommendations/tips on the proper way to clean these floppies?
>
> Well, I need to ask just for drill-- Is there a reason why they need to
> be cleaned? If they are infested with mold or mildew, this can be
> impossible to repair, especially if it has weakened the emulsion on the
> floppy disk. If they are otherwise clean but just won't boot on the
> Apple, the drive heads might need a wipe down or some other repair.
>
> When I get a batch of disks for preservation, I look for a mildew film
> over the surface of the disk before I even put it in my drive (the
> surface will look spotty or dull). Additionally, I will try to manually
> spin the disk inside the jacket manually and see if it spins somewhat
> freely. That film usually means that the Mylar / cotton inside the floppy
> is also funky, and if it's tough or impossible to spin, the mold or
> mildew has very likely "fused" the cotton and the magnetic disk together.
>
> I have pulled apart floppies that were black from mold on the inside and
> smelled like the damp basement of a 200 year old building. These are BAD
> signs.
>
> If you see the film or smell a funk, the disk is a loss at this point.
> There is no way to repair this disk that I am aware of. Once the mold has
> gotten in to the disk liner (and if you don't want to open the disk
> jacket to pull the magnetic disk inside out to clean), you might as well
> throw it away.
>
> The way I extract information from a disk damaged in this way is that I
> break open the disk jacket, pull the magnetic disk out, and soak it in
> rubbing alcohol for a few minutes. I then rub it gently with a cotton
> ball as to not pull the emulsion from the disk (I learned a few very hard
> lessons ruining some irreplaceable data by wrecking the emulsion using
> paper towels), and visually inspect the surface to see if the film or
> spots are gone. If not, I repeat the process.
>
> Once the disk is clean, I put it in a donor floppy jacket and try to
> extract the data that way. I have a success rate of about 90% as long as
> I am diligent and careful in the cleaning process.
>
> I then throw the magnetic disk and the jacket away. I would NOT recommend
> using a disk cleaned in this way ever again. It's likely on borrowed
> time, even if you put the magnetic disk in a donor jacket. That mold and
> mildew likely did damage the emulsion, and it'll very possibly start to
> flake off the surface very soon.
>
> One other thing-- If you haven't done so already, check the caps (or
> simply replace) on the power supply ASAP. If you stored THAT in a damp or
> dank place, it's likely on borrowed time as well. Caps are cheap, and if
> you know how to solder, it might make a fun project on a rainy afternoon
> to enjoy with your kid(s). If you want to replace it, these are available
> on various websites for 60-80 USD and is easy to replace-- All you need
> is a screwdriver and about an hour of your time (if you're an
> overcautious novice). Otherwise, you might get that "pop" and all of the
> stinky magic smoke will pour from the top and the back slots.
>
> Anyway, best of luck to you. If you want to replace your originals,
> there's always eBay, or I frequently buy out lots that have scads of
> originals.
>
> Cheers--

Thanks for the tips, will come in useful. Since you asked, the reason for the cleaning is that they give errors when trying to run them. For example, my Zork I disk would make the drive make lots of noises and give an error at certain parts of the game. I cleaned it and the noises and errors no longer occur. Perhaps there's more issues elsewhere but I'd have to play the whole game to know, which I plan to, but that's the reason why I'm cleaning my disks. I'm also trying to clean them before I use them since I already opened and cleaned my floppy drive and I don't want the disks dirtying my drive head anymore.
Re: Just tried cleaning my Wishbringer floppy [message #394794 is a reply to message #394792] Thu, 21 May 2020 22:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: JoeyX

>
> Thanks for the tips, will come in useful. Since you asked, the reason
> for the cleaning is that they give errors when trying to run them. For
> example, my Zork I disk would make the drive make lots of noises and
> give an error at certain parts of the game. I cleaned it and the noises
> and errors no longer occur. Perhaps there's more issues elsewhere but
> I'd have to play the whole game to know, which I plan to, but that's the
> reason why I'm cleaning my disks. I'm also trying to clean them before I
> use them since I already opened and cleaned my floppy drive and I don't
> want the disks dirtying my drive head anymore.

Ah! Okay. Good luck. :)
Re: Just tried cleaning my Wishbringer floppy [message #394803 is a reply to message #394717] Fri, 22 May 2020 08:51 Go to previous message
Steven Hirsch is currently offline  Steven Hirsch
Messages: 798
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 5/19/20 11:21 PM, Anthony Ortiz wrote:
> I think I pressed a little too hard while wiping vertically across the
> tracks because I suddenly saw a streak on the floppy and some rust colored
> pieces of residue on my microfiber cloth. Was this inevitable or am I doing
> it wrong?

If you even suspect that the binding agent on a diskette is breaking down,
it's best to bake it for a day or two at about 140-150 degree F. I purchased
a device intended for drying fruits and meat on eBay for $25.

There's plenty of discussion about this approach on the Classic Computer
mailing list. Search Google.
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