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| Re: How a Hardware Genius Turned a 1930s Teletype Into a Linux Terminal [message #394044 is a reply to message #394043] |
Tue, 05 May 2020 23:27   |
Quadibloc
Messages: 4399
Registered: June 2012
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On Tuesday, May 5, 2020 at 7:34:47 PM UTC-6, David Lesher wrote:
> How did an ASR-33 get to be "1930's"?
> Try the Model 15.
It is the use of a 5-level Teletype as a Linux terminal that started this thread.
But then there was a discussion of how even an upper-case only ASCII Teletype
would have some limitations when used with Unix.
John Savard
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| Re: How a Hardware Genius Turned a 1930s Teletype Into a Linux Terminal [message #394062 is a reply to message #394043] |
Tue, 05 May 2020 23:42 |
Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
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On 2020-05-06, David Lesher <wb8foz@panix.com> wrote:
> How did an ASR-33 get to be "1930's"?
> Try the Model 15.
That was my first impression. But if you look closely
at the pictures you'll see that it's not a Teletype[tm]
machine but some sort of German equivalent.
A PPOE had two machines: an ASR33 for TWX and a Siemens
machine for Telex which was basically Baudot but with a
couple of different characters, like the "iron cross".
Somewhere I still have a 5-level paper tape I punched
on it - it prints an image of the Madonna and child.
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.
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| Re: How a Hardware Genius Turned a 1930s Teletype Into a Linux Terminal [message #394075 is a reply to message #394015] |
Wed, 06 May 2020 01:39 |
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
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On Tue, 5 May 2020 16:12:52 -0700 (PDT)
Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 5, 2020 at 2:30:02 AM UTC-6, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>
>> One thought springs to mind, and I could well be wrong if so
>> please correct me, but isn't it the case that no matter what type wheel
>> is installed, or what is printed on the key caps the key combinations
>> referred to up-thread will always put the right ASCII characters on the
>> tape (ASR-33) and/or serial line (KSR-33 or ASR-33).
>
> That's true enough. You would have to change the code bars in the
> keyboard asembly to change what sequence of bits was sent out for a
> particular key combination.
>
> But I don't think that was the issue under discussion.
It seemed to have started about whether an ASR-33 was usable as a
terminal to a modern unix system. Given the above it will work but you might
see blanks on the paper.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
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| Re: How a Hardware Genius Turned a 1930s Teletype Into a Linux Terminal [message #394076 is a reply to message #394062] |
Wed, 06 May 2020 02:36 |
Quadibloc
Messages: 4399
Registered: June 2012
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On Tuesday, May 5, 2020 at 9:42:55 PM UTC-6, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2020-05-06, David Lesher <wb8foz@panix.com> wrote:
>> How did an ASR-33 get to be "1930's"?
>> Try the Model 15.
> That was my first impression. But if you look closely
> at the pictures you'll see that it's not a Teletype[tm]
> machine but some sort of German equivalent.
In the video, the Teletype trademark is visible clearly on the machine, and it
has the form of a Model 15. It also has a label on it referring to it as
"Printer TG-7-B", which suggests that it is a military model. And indeed it is,
it's described in TM 11-352, for example.
John Savard
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| Re: How a Hardware Genius Turned a 1930s Teletype Into a Linux Terminal [message #394093 is a reply to message #394062] |
Wed, 06 May 2020 04:48 |
Robin Vowels
Messages: 426
Registered: July 2012
Karma: 0
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On Wednesday, May 6, 2020 at 1:42:55 PM UTC+10, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2020-05-06, David Lesher <w.....@panix.com> wrote:
>
>> How did an ASR-33 get to be "1930's"?
>> Try the Model 15.
>
> That was my first impression. But if you look closely
> at the pictures you'll see that it's not a Teletype[tm]
> machine but some sort of German equivalent.
>
> A PPOE had two machines: an ASR33 for TWX and a Siemens
> machine for Telex which was basically Baudot but with a
> couple of different characters, like the "iron cross".
That possibly was a Siemens M100 machine.
Very reliable.
> Somewhere I still have a 5-level paper tape I punched
> on it - it prints an image of the Madonna and child.
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| Re: How a Hardware Genius Turned a 1930s Teletype Into a Linux Terminal [message #394609 is a reply to message #393958] |
Sat, 16 May 2020 10:29 |
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Originally posted by: fred_weigel
On Tuesday, May 5, 2020 at 5:26:55 AM UTC-4, robin...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 5, 2020 at 5:11:35 PM UTC+10, Quadibloc wrote:
>> On Monday, May 4, 2020 at 11:43:17 PM UTC-6, robin...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> And in any case, a type wheel was easily changed for another.
>>
>> Fairly easily, perhaps, but in practice it was very seldom done. An ASR 33 is not
>> a Selectric typewriter.
>
> Certainly, it's not a Selectric, but type wheels can be changed
> for special characters, and because a type wheel can be damaged.
> Substitutions can be done rapidly for a temporary change.
>
> Recall that the wheel is hit by a rubber hammer. The rubber
> part is fitted over a steel holder. Though the
> hammer is made of tough rubber, it can wear completely through.
> Once the rubber hammer is worn through, the metal part comes
> into direct contact with the aluminium wheel, and characters on the
> type wheel rapidly become mutilated.
You guys are funny. The daisy wheel was invented in 1970. The Model 33 used a rotating cylinder, and was introduced in 1963. I do not know how easy it
is to replace the cylinder, because I have never needed to do so.
FredW
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| Re: How a Hardware Genius Turned a 1930s Teletype Into a Linux Terminal [message #394610 is a reply to message #394609] |
Sat, 16 May 2020 10:39 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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<fred_weigel@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 5, 2020 at 5:26:55 AM UTC-4, robin...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Tuesday, May 5, 2020 at 5:11:35 PM UTC+10, Quadibloc wrote:
>>> On Monday, May 4, 2020 at 11:43:17 PM UTC-6, robin...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> And in any case, a type wheel was easily changed for another.
>>>
>>> Fairly easily, perhaps, but in practice it was very seldom done. An ASR 33 is not
>>> a Selectric typewriter.
>>
>> Certainly, it's not a Selectric, but type wheels can be changed
>> for special characters, and because a type wheel can be damaged.
>> Substitutions can be done rapidly for a temporary change.
>>
>> Recall that the wheel is hit by a rubber hammer. The rubber
>> part is fitted over a steel holder. Though the
>> hammer is made of tough rubber, it can wear completely through.
>> Once the rubber hammer is worn through, the metal part comes
>> into direct contact with the aluminium wheel, and characters on the
>> type wheel rapidly become mutilated.
>
>
> You guys are funny. The daisy wheel was invented in 1970. The Model 33
> used a rotating cylinder, and was introduced in 1963. I do not know how easy it
> is to replace the cylinder, because I have never needed to do so.
>
I don’t recall that either. The cylinder was high-grade steel, daisy wheels
were made of some cheap, thin substance, maybe aluminum (as mentioned) or
plastic. This is the crossover point between sturdy and well- made, like
Teletypes and 2741s, and cheap and disposable.
--
Pete
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| Re: How a Hardware Genius Turned a 1930s Teletype Into a Linux Terminal [message #394616 is a reply to message #394610] |
Sat, 16 May 2020 11:41 |
Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2020-05-16, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> <fred_weigel@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tuesday, May 5, 2020 at 5:26:55 AM UTC-4, robin...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> On Tuesday, May 5, 2020 at 5:11:35 PM UTC+10, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Monday, May 4, 2020 at 11:43:17 PM UTC-6, robin...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > And in any case, a type wheel was easily changed for another.
>>>>
>>>> Fairly easily, perhaps, but in practice it was very seldom done.
>>>> An ASR 33 is not a Selectric typewriter.
<nit>
Nor, for that matter, is a KSR33 or a 33RO.
</nit>
>>> Certainly, it's not a Selectric, but type wheels can be changed
>>> for special characters, and because a type wheel can be damaged.
>>> Substitutions can be done rapidly for a temporary change.
>>>
>>> Recall that the wheel is hit by a rubber hammer. The rubber
>>> part is fitted over a steel holder. Though the
>>> hammer is made of tough rubber, it can wear completely through.
>>> Once the rubber hammer is worn through, the metal part comes
>>> into direct contact with the aluminium wheel, and characters on the
>>> type wheel rapidly become mutilated.
>>
>> You guys are funny. The daisy wheel was invented in 1970. The Model 33
>> used a rotating cylinder, and was introduced in 1963. I do not know how
>> easy it is to replace the cylinder, because I have never needed to do so.
On the other hand, the Model 35's typebox is very easy to replace. :-)
> I don’t recall that either. The cylinder was high-grade steel, daisy wheels
> were made of some cheap, thin substance, maybe aluminum (as mentioned) or
> plastic. This is the crossover point between sturdy and well- made, like
> Teletypes and 2741s, and cheap and disposable.
Most daisy wheels I saw were plastic, although the period tended to
be metal (plated?) to withstand the pounding it would take.
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.
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| Re: How a Hardware Genius Turned a 1930s Teletype Into a Linux Terminal [message #394617 is a reply to message #393861] |
Sat, 16 May 2020 12:49 |
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Originally posted by: fred_weigel
On Thursday, April 30, 2020 at 9:25:44 AM UTC-4, Peter Flass wrote:
> https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/a30647778/linux-tel etype-programming-hardware-video/
>
>
> --
> Pete
Sorry, completely off-topic
Since I repaired daisy wheel mechanisms "back in the day" -- the operation is:
A metal hammer that moves freely inside an electro-magnet. When the wheel is
about to expose the desired glyph, the magnet is fired, causing the hammer
to drive to the wheel. The hammer hits the wheel, and bounces off. It returns
back. IF IT STICKS, THE WHEEL GETS MANGLED. The spoke then impacts the ribbon, and the paper. The spoke then bounces back, and the wheel is moved to the next
desired glyph. You don't want to operate this mechanism without the wheel.
You don't want the hammer to stick. You need the glyph to move -- many times.
It would be useful to "metallize" the wheel -- probably more important at
the center! of the spokes. Two elastic collisions per impact.
Yes, the character would degrade. But the wheel typically lost spokes sooner
than the type became muddy.
All of this because the print speed of 10cps was too slow. Daisy wheels achieved 30+ cps.
FredW
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| Re: How a Hardware Genius Turned a 1930s Teletype Into a Linux Terminal [message #394618 is a reply to message #394610] |
Sat, 16 May 2020 13:05 |
Robin Vowels
Messages: 426
Registered: July 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Sunday, May 17, 2020 at 12:40:00 AM UTC+10, Peter Flass wrote:
> <f......@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On Tuesday, May 5, 2020 at 5:26:55 AM UTC-4, r......@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, May 5, 2020 at 5:11:35 PM UTC+10, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>> On Monday, May 4, 2020 at 11:43:17 PM UTC-6, r.......@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > And in any case, a type wheel was easily changed for another.
>>>>
>>>> Fairly easily, perhaps, but in practice it was very seldom done. An ASR 33 is not
>>>> a Selectric typewriter.
>>>
>>> Certainly, it's not a Selectric, but type wheels can be changed
>>> for special characters, and because a type wheel can be damaged.
>>> Substitutions can be done rapidly for a temporary change.
>>>
>>> Recall that the wheel is hit by a rubber hammer. The rubber
>>> part is fitted over a steel holder. Though the
>>> hammer is made of tough rubber, it can wear completely through.
>>> Once the rubber hammer is worn through, the metal part comes
>>> into direct contact with the aluminium wheel, and characters on the
>>> type wheel rapidly become mutilated.
>>
>>
>> You guys are funny. The daisy wheel was invented in 1970.
A similar principle was used on very early teleprinters, c. 1920s.
> The Model 33
>> used a rotating cylinder, and was introduced in 1963. I do not know how easy it
>> is to replace the cylinder, because I have never needed to do so.
A small spanner and a tool made from piece of fencing wire
to hold the wheel steady while you changed it.
> I don’t recall that either. The cylinder was high-grade steel,
Light-weight aluminium.
> daisy wheels
> were made of some cheap, thin substance, maybe aluminum (as mentioned) or
> plastic.
I think that the Diablo wheel was plastic.
> This is the crossover point between sturdy and well- made, like
> Teletypes and 2741s, and cheap and disposable.
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| Re: How a Hardware Genius Turned a 1930s Teletype Into a Linux Terminal [message #394620 is a reply to message #394617] |
Sat, 16 May 2020 14:45 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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<fred_weigel@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, April 30, 2020 at 9:25:44 AM UTC-4, Peter Flass wrote:
>> https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/a30647778/linux-tel etype-programming-hardware-video/
>>
>>
>> --
>> Pete
>
> Sorry, completely off-topic
>
> Since I repaired daisy wheel mechanisms "back in the day" -- the operation is:
>
> A metal hammer that moves freely inside an electro-magnet. When the wheel is
> about to expose the desired glyph, the magnet is fired, causing the hammer
> to drive to the wheel. The hammer hits the wheel, and bounces off. It returns
> back. IF IT STICKS, THE WHEEL GETS MANGLED. The spoke then impacts the
> ribbon, and the paper. The spoke then bounces back, and the wheel is moved to the next
> desired glyph. You don't want to operate this mechanism without the wheel.
> You don't want the hammer to stick. You need the glyph to move -- many times.
> It would be useful to "metallize" the wheel -- probably more important at
> the center! of the spokes. Two elastic collisions per impact.
>
> Yes, the character would degrade. But the wheel typically lost spokes sooner
> than the type became muddy.
>
> All of this because the print speed of 10cps was too slow. Daisy wheels achieved 30+ cps.
>
The 2741 was 15, so half.
--
Pete
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| Re: How a Hardware Genius Turned a 1930s Teletype Into a Linux Terminal [message #394629 is a reply to message #394617] |
Sat, 16 May 2020 23:14 |
Robin Vowels
Messages: 426
Registered: July 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Sunday, May 17, 2020 at 2:49:52 AM UTC+10, f..._...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Since I repaired daisy wheel mechanisms "back in the day" -- the operation is:
>
> A metal hammer that moves freely inside an electro-magnet. When the wheel is
> about to expose the desired glyph, the magnet is fired, causing the hammer
> to drive to the wheel. The hammer hits the wheel, and bounces off. It returns
> back. IF IT STICKS, THE WHEEL GETS MANGLED. The spoke then impacts the ribbon,
> and the paper. The spoke then bounces back, and the wheel is moved to the next
> desired glyph. You don't want to operate this mechanism without the wheel.
> You don't want the hammer to stick. You need the glyph to move -- many times.
> It would be useful to "metallize" the wheel -- probably more important at
> the center! of the spokes. Two elastic collisions per impact.
Weren't the characters metallized?
> Yes, the character would degrade. But the wheel typically lost spokes sooner
> than the type became muddy.
>
> All of this because the print speed of 10cps was too slow. Daisy wheels
> achieved 30+ cps.
Nominally, 30 cps, but with a "catch-up" speed more than 30 cps
when the carrier returned
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| Re: How a Hardware Genius Turned a 1930s Teletype Into a Linux Terminal [message #394643 is a reply to message #394610] |
Sun, 17 May 2020 12:48 |
Quadibloc
Messages: 4399
Registered: June 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Saturday, May 16, 2020 at 8:40:00 AM UTC-6, Peter Flass wrote:
> I don’t recall that either. The cylinder was high-grade steel, daisy wheels
> were made of some cheap, thin substance, maybe aluminum (as mentioned) or
> plastic. This is the crossover point between sturdy and well- made, like
> Teletypes and 2741s, and cheap and disposable.
The IBM Selectric typewriter was introduced in 1961.
Selectric elements were made out of plastic, with a metal coating; some
daisywheel printers could also use daisywheels with a metal layer on the
printing side for higher quality printing.
John Savard
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| Re: How a Hardware Genius Turned a 1930s Teletype Into a Linux Terminal [message #394644 is a reply to message #394629] |
Sun, 17 May 2020 12:51 |
Quadibloc
Messages: 4399
Registered: June 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Saturday, May 16, 2020 at 9:14:51 PM UTC-6, robin...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, May 17, 2020 at 2:49:52 AM UTC+10, f..._...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> It would be useful to "metallize" the wheel -- probably more important at
>> the center! of the spokes. Two elastic collisions per impact.
>
> Weren't the characters metallized?
They _could_ be, and in some cases were, but in general they were not. Thus, the
Diablo 630 and a few other professional daisy-wheel printers could use, as an
alternative to all-plastic daisywheels, ones that were metal at least on the
printing side.
John Savard
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| Re: How a Hardware Genius Turned a 1930s Teletype Into a Linux Terminal [message #394656 is a reply to message #394643] |
Sun, 17 May 2020 23:04 |
Robin Vowels
Messages: 426
Registered: July 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Monday, May 18, 2020 at 2:48:53 AM UTC+10, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Saturday, May 16, 2020 at 8:40:00 AM UTC-6, Peter Flass wrote:
>
>> I don’t recall that either. The cylinder was high-grade steel, daisy wheels
>> were made of some cheap, thin substance, maybe aluminum (as mentioned) or
>> plastic. This is the crossover point between sturdy and well- made, like
>> Teletypes and 2741s, and cheap and disposable.
>
> The IBM Selectric typewriter was introduced in 1961.
>
> Selectric elements were made out of plastic, with a metal coating; some
> daisywheel printers could also use daisywheels with a metal layer on the
> printing side for higher quality printing.
It was mainly for longevity of the type faces that a metal
coating was used.
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| Re: How a Hardware Genius Turned a 1930s Teletype Into a Linux Terminal [message #394657 is a reply to message #394643] |
Sun, 17 May 2020 23:07 |
Robin Vowels
Messages: 426
Registered: July 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Monday, May 18, 2020 at 2:48:53 AM UTC+10, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Saturday, May 16, 2020 at 8:40:00 AM UTC-6, Peter Flass wrote:
>
>> I don’t recall that either. The cylinder was high-grade steel, daisy wheels
>> were made of some cheap, thin substance, maybe aluminum (as mentioned) or
>> plastic. This is the crossover point between sturdy and well- made, like
>> Teletypes and 2741s, and cheap and disposable.
>
> The IBM Selectric typewriter was introduced in 1961.
>
> Selectric elements were made out of plastic, with a metal coating;
The weakness of the plastic thimbles was the toothed part;
the teeth regularly broke off.
IBM usually replaced those free of charge.
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