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| Re: Origin of the "TYPE LETTER TO RUN" classic HELLOprogram? [message #392440 is a reply to message #392439] |
Thu, 26 March 2020 09:29   |
D Finnigan
Messages: 1154
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
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D Finnigan wrote:
>
> I would first check all DOS 3.1 and 3.2.x disks at hand and see if any of
> them have this file selector.
>
> I would also skim thru Call-APPLE, Apple Orchard, and any other magazines
> from that time period. I would probably just scan the table of contents
> for
> each issue.
>
By the way, its widespread dispersal is suggestive of publication thru a
magazine, user's group newsletter or the like.
Or, it came from a single disk or small set of disks so common (such as a
DOS System Master) that nearly every Apple user had a copy, and thus more
copies were made and distributed, and the program trickled out to many more
disks.
--
]DF$
The New Apple II User's Guide:
https://macgui.com/newa2guide/
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| Re: Origin of the "TYPE LETTER TO RUN" classic HELLOprogram? [message #392441 is a reply to message #392440] |
Thu, 26 March 2020 09:49 |
Steve Nickolas
Messages: 2036
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
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On Thu, 26 Mar 2020, D Finnigan wrote:
> D Finnigan wrote:
>>
>> I would first check all DOS 3.1 and 3.2.x disks at hand and see if any of
>> them have this file selector.
>>
>> I would also skim thru Call-APPLE, Apple Orchard, and any other magazines
>> from that time period. I would probably just scan the table of contents
>> for
>> each issue.
>>
>
> By the way, its widespread dispersal is suggestive of publication thru a
> magazine, user's group newsletter or the like.
>
> Or, it came from a single disk or small set of disks so common (such as a
> DOS System Master) that nearly every Apple user had a copy, and thus more
> copies were made and distributed, and the program trickled out to many more
> disks.
>
>
The one I've seen most was KEY-CAT, which was published by Beagle Bros in
two different versions, but that's not quite the same as this.
-uso.
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| Re: Origin of the "TYPE LETTER TO RUN" classic HELLOprogram? [message #392473 is a reply to message #392441] |
Fri, 27 March 2020 02:48 |
sicklittlemonkey
Messages: 570
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
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On Thursday, 26 March 2020 23:49:47 UTC+10, Steve Nickolas wrote:
> The one I've seen most was KEY-CAT, which was published by Beagle Bros in
> two different versions, but that's not quite the same as this.
Yes, KEY-CAT could be another possible ancestor as it was supposedly published in 1982 but has this comment with a 1981 copyright:
===========================
"KEY-CAT" CATALOG MENU-FIER
BY BERT KERSEY
(C) 1981 BEAGLE BROS.
LISTS UP TO 23 FILES
SELECTABLE BY ONE KEYPRESS.
===========================
Cheers,
Nick.
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| Re: Origin of the "TYPE LETTER TO RUN" classic HELLOprogram? [message #392500 is a reply to message #392498] |
Sat, 28 March 2020 07:03 |
Antoine Vignau
Messages: 1860
Registered: October 2012
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It is pretty funny to discover what others did in their young lige.
For instance, each year at the Apple II Festival France, we have an attendee, kind, discreet, curious, and we like him a lot. For us, he is one of the numerous Apple II enthusiasts in France.
In fact, we discovered that he had bought an Apple II recently and was the writer of Zombi, the first game published by Ubisoft.
I like that world!
Antoine
ps. I hope you and yours are all ok
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| Re: Origin of the "TYPE LETTER TO RUN" classic HELLO program? [message #392529 is a reply to message #392432] |
Sun, 29 March 2020 04:36 |
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Originally posted by: James Davis
On Wednesday, March 25, 2020 at 10:51:07 PM UTC-7, Nick Westgate wrote:
> Hi guys.
>
> There are many variants of this HELLO program.
> Does anyone know the original or probable origin?
>
> Someone asked the question here:
> https://retrocomputing.stackexchange.com/questions/14206/whe re-did-the-levi-file-selector-runner-for-the-apple-ii-dos-3- 3-come-from
>
> But I've often wondered this too and would love to know the history.
>
> Cheers,
> Nick.
Hi Guys and Gals,
Yes, I.I.R.C., Larry Freeman wrote it for the A.B.A.C.U.S. in Integer BASIC back in 1978 or 1979 around the time we first met at the Apple Bay Area Computer Users Society (Computer Club meeting monthly at Castro Valley High School, CA, USA). I converted it to Applesoft and made improvements to it. I probably still have the club newsletter it was published in, and it is on most of my floppy disks & A.B.A.C.U.S. D.O.M.s. Bert Kersey & Bill Sanders may have included it in Beagle Bros' "Big Tip Book" and/or on one of their diskettes too, B.K. claiming to be the Author, but he also changed it too.
Larry Freeman moved to Reynoldsburg, a suburb of Cleveland, Ohio, in 1981 or 1982. I lost touch with him after that. He worked for the Telephone company, Bell Labs or AT&T, back then. He was an Internal Communications Electrician (in the U.S. Navy) long before we ever met. If he is still living, you may be able to find him and get his take on all of this.
Yours Truly,
James Davis
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| Re: Origin of the "TYPE LETTER TO RUN" classic HELLO program? [message #392533 is a reply to message #392529] |
Sun, 29 March 2020 08:42 |
Steve Nickolas
Messages: 2036
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
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On Sun, 29 Mar 2020, James Davis wrote:
> Yes, I.I.R.C., Larry Freeman wrote it for the A.B.A.C.U.S. in Integer
> BASIC back in 1978 or 1979 around the time we first met at the Apple Bay
> Area Computer Users Society (Computer Club meeting monthly at Castro
> Valley High School, CA, USA). I converted it to Applesoft and made
> improvements to it. I probably still have the club newsletter it was
> published in, and it is on most of my floppy disks & A.B.A.C.U.S.
> D.O.M.s. Bert Kersey & Bill Sanders may have included it in Beagle
> Bros' "Big Tip Book" and/or on one of their diskettes too, B.K. claiming
> to be the Author, but he also changed it too.
So "Key-Cat" (which was on the Tip Disk 1 and DOS BOSS) is a descendant?
-uso.
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| Re: Origin of the "TYPE LETTER TO RUN" classic HELLO program? [message #392545 is a reply to message #392529] |
Sun, 29 March 2020 12:41 |
sicklittlemonkey
Messages: 570
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
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On Sunday, 29 March 2020 18:36:56 UTC+10, James Davis wrote:
> Yes, I.I.R.C., Larry Freeman wrote it for the A.B.A.C.U.S. in Integer BASIC back in 1978 or 1979 around the time we first met at the Apple Bay Area Computer Users Society (Computer Club meeting monthly at Castro Valley High School, CA, USA). I converted it to Applesoft and made improvements to it.. I probably still have the club newsletter it was published in, and it is on most of my floppy disks & A.B.A.C.U.S. D.O.M.s. Bert Kersey & Bill Sanders may have included it in Beagle Bros' "Big Tip Book" and/or on one of their diskettes too, B.K. claiming to be the Author, but he also changed it too.
Wow, so it goes back to 78? If you have any disk images or scans you could share that would be very interesting.
> Larry Freeman moved to Reynoldsburg, a suburb of Cleveland, Ohio, in 1981 or 1982. I lost touch with him after that. He worked for the Telephone company, Bell Labs or AT&T, back then. He was an Internal Communications Electrician (in the U.S. Navy) long before we ever met. If he is still living, you may be able to find him and get his take on all of this.
It looks like he might be on Facebook, so I've sent him a message.
So far we have 4 programs, some of which copy parts of each other's styles or functions, but the code for each is quite different. The source and a screenshot for each is in the zip archive linked here if anyone wants to have a look:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1GuX_3nqR2kMwmhV1wX3WCw5Lwhz yBBUG/view?usp=sharing
Cheers,
Nick.
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| Re: Origin of the "TYPE LETTER TO RUN" classic HELLO program? [message #392546 is a reply to message #392545] |
Sun, 29 March 2020 13:14 |
Steve Nickolas
Messages: 2036
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
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On Sun, 29 Mar 2020, Nick Westgate wrote:
> So far we have 4 programs, some of which copy parts of each other's
> styles or functions, but the code for each is quite different.
If mentioning Key-Cat, I actually wrote my own program of this ilk, which
I then ran through a cruncher to get this (you can't type it, I don't
think), which appears on some of my disks.
1 NORMAL:TEXT:HOME:PRINT:PRINT CHR$(4)"CATALOG":DIM A(24),B(24):FOR D=1 TO 24:A(D)=0:B(D)=0:NEXT D:C=0:FOR D=1 TO 24:A=SCRN(0,(D-1)*2)+16*SCRN(0,(D*2)-1):B=SCRN(1,(D-1)*2)+16 *SCRN(1,(D*2)-1):IF (A=160 OR A=170) AND (B=ASC("A")+128 OR B=ASC("I")+128) THEN A(D)=1
2 IF (A=160 OR A=170) AND (B=ASC("B")+128) THEN A(D)=2
3 IF (A=160 OR A=170) AND (B=ASC("T")+128) THEN A(D)=3
4 IF A(D) THEN C=C+1:B(C)=D:VTAB D:HTAB 4:INVERSE:PRINT ":";CHR$(C+64);":";:NORMAL
5 NEXT D:VTAB 1:HTAB 1:INVERSE:PRINT " PRESS THE LETTER OF YOUR SELECTION ";:NORMAL
6 WAIT 49152,128:GET A$:IF A$="Z" THEN HOME:END
7 IF A$<"A" OR A$>CHR$(64+C) THEN 6
8 E=ASC(A$)-64:B$="":F=B(E):FOR D=7 TO 36:B$=B$+CHR$(SCRN(D,(F-1)*2)+16*SCRN(D,(F*2)-1)-128):NEXT D
9 IF RIGHT$(B$,1)=" " THEN B$=LEFT$(B$,LEN(B$)-1):GOTO 9
10 VTAB F:HTAB 8:INVERSE:PRINT B$:NORMAL:C$="RUN":IF A(F)=2 THEN C$="BRUN"
11 IF A(F)=3 THEN C$="EXEC"
12 PRINT:PRINT CHR$(4)C$;B$
Obviously it's not as good as these programs but in most cases it
suffices. I did call it "Mini Key-Cat" - and it has the same key to exit
- but there's no actual code connection, or at least should be none,
between it and the original.
-uso.
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| Re: Origin of the "TYPE LETTER TO RUN" classic HELLO program? [message #392560 is a reply to message #392533] |
Sun, 29 March 2020 20:09 |
sicklittlemonkey
Messages: 570
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
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On Sunday, 29 March 2020 22:42:31 UTC+10, Steve Nickolas wrote:
> So "Key-Cat" (which was on the Tip Disk 1 and DOS BOSS) is a descendant?
Hmm, I got it from Utility City, but the two disks you mention have slightly different versions! To be expected I suppose. I also found another completely different take on the genre on Beagle Bag. There are two menu programs on there, the fanciest being Beagle Menu, but it lacks one-key run. You have to use arrow keys to select, which is crazy! I might have to check all their disks.
In my mind Catsup looks like an (inspirational) ancestor of what the question author calls "Levi" because they share what I think is the crucial text and options: "TYPE LETTER TO RUN, OR LOAD=1 LOCK=2 UNLOCK=3 DELETE=4". Larry and James' Applesoft Menu has similar wording and options.
If Key-Cat was a descendant I would expect more options.
My guess is Levi's name was some kid doing INIT <NAME>!
Cheers,
Nick.
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| Re: Origin of the "TYPE LETTER TO RUN" classic HELLO program? [message #392594 is a reply to message #392545] |
Tue, 31 March 2020 01:32 |
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Originally posted by: James Davis
On Sunday, March 29, 2020 at 9:41:53 AM UTC-7, Nick Westgate wrote:
> On Sunday, 29 March 2020 18:36:56 UTC+10, James Davis wrote:
> ...
> Wow, so it goes back to 78? If you have any disk images or scans you could share that would be very interesting.
> ...
I have no way to do it. I have given up on trying to connect my Apple II's to my Windows computers. ADT has never worked for me other than going from Windows to ProDOS with just the ADT setup program using Audio cabling.
> ...
> It looks like he might be on Facebook, so I've sent him a message.
> ...
> Cheers,
> Nick.
Well, I don't use Facebook either, but maybe you can get Larry to chime in here at comp.sys.apple2.
James Davis
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| Re: Origin of the "TYPE LETTER TO RUN" classic HELLO program? [message #392688 is a reply to message #392546] |
Fri, 03 April 2020 11:20 |
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Originally posted by: Brian Patrie
On 29/03/2020 12.14, Steve Nickolas wrote:
> 1 NORMAL:TEXT:HOME:PRINT:PRINT CHR$(4)"CATALOG":DIM A(24),B(24):FOR D=1
> TO 24:A(D)=0:B(D)=0:NEXT D:C=0:FOR D=1 TO
> 24:A=SCRN(0,(D-1)*2)+16*SCRN(0,(D*2)-1):B=SCRN(1,(D-1)*2)+16 *SCRN(1,(D*2)-1):IF
> (A=160 OR A=170) AND (B=ASC("A")+128 OR B=ASC("I")+128) THEN A(D)=1
For reading the screen, i prefer the likes of
DIM L$(24) : FOR Y=1 TO 24 : VTAB Y : LB=PEEK(40)+PEEK(41)*256 : FOR X=0
TO 39 : C=PEEK(LB+X) : C=C-128*(C>127) : L$(Y)=L$(Y)+CHR$(C) : NEXT : NEXT
To all that math on SCRN() values.
:)
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| Re: Origin of the "TYPE LETTER TO RUN" classic HELLO program? [message #392710 is a reply to message #392688] |
Sat, 04 April 2020 08:22 |
sicklittlemonkey
Messages: 570
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Saturday, 4 April 2020 01:20:19 UTC+10, Brian Patrie wrote:
> For reading the screen, i prefer the likes of
>
> DIM L$(24) : FOR Y=1 TO 24 : VTAB Y : LB=PEEK(40)+PEEK(41)*256 : FOR X=0
> TO 39 : C=PEEK(LB+X) : C=C-128*(C>127) : L$(Y)=L$(Y)+CHR$(C) : NEXT : NEXT
>
> To all that math on SCRN() values.
That's one of the interesting things about these programs. I was expecting - or hoping - to see more of a progression or evolution. Instead the 4 variants found so far (of course there are many others I haven't examined yet) are implemented very differently.
The LEVI program does the following:
1000 C1 = INT (CV / 8):C2 = CV - C1 * 8:P = 1024 + 128 * C2 + 40 * C1 + CH:C = PEEK (P): RETURN
Others use SCRN or pre-calculated data.
Even the catalog data is not always obtained by executing the DOS CATALOG command. CATSUP from Micro-sparc reads the catalog from the disk and parses it! It's not that it's difficult, but I didn't expect it.
Cheers,
Nick.
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| Re: Origin of the "TYPE LETTER TO RUN" classic HELLO program? [message #392746 is a reply to message #392710] |
Sun, 05 April 2020 12:01 |
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Originally posted by: Brian Patrie
On 04/04/2020 07.22, Nick Westgate wrote:
> On Saturday, 4 April 2020 01:20:19 UTC+10, Brian Patrie wrote:
>> For reading the screen, i prefer the likes of
>>
>> DIM L$(24) : FOR Y=1 TO 24 : VTAB Y : LB=PEEK(40)+PEEK(41)*256
>> : FOR X=0 TO 39 : C=PEEK(LB+X) : C=C-128*(C>127)
>> : L$(Y)=L$(Y)+CHR$(C) : NEXT : NEXT
>>
>> To all that math on SCRN() values.
>
> That's one of the interesting things about these programs. I was
> expecting - or hoping - to see more of a progression or evolution.
> Instead the 4 variants found so far (of course there are many
> others I haven't examined yet) are implemented very differently.
>
> The LEVI program does the following:
> 1000 C1 = INT (CV / 8):C2 = CV - C1 * 8
> :P = 1024 + 128 * C2 + 40 * C1 + CH:C = PEEK (P): RETURN
>
> Others use SCRN or pre-calculated data.
>
> Even the catalog data is not always obtained by executing the
> DOS CATALOG command. CATSUP from Micro-sparc reads the catalog
> from the disk and parses it! It's not that it's difficult,
> but I didn't expect it.
I made one that did that, using two entry points (one to read the 1st
catalog sector, the other to read subsequent sectors) that i gleaned
from a Beagle Bros program, and reading from the buffer by pointing a
string variable there. Sadly, it's trapped on my dead Sider. :(
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| Re: Origin of the "TYPE LETTER TO RUN" classic HELLO program? [message #392749 is a reply to message #392746] |
Sun, 05 April 2020 14:49 |
Steve Nickolas
Messages: 2036
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, Brian Patrie wrote:
> On 04/04/2020 07.22, Nick Westgate wrote:
>> On Saturday, 4 April 2020 01:20:19 UTC+10, Brian Patrie wrote:
>>> For reading the screen, i prefer the likes of
>>>
>>> DIM L$(24) : FOR Y=1 TO 24 : VTAB Y : LB=PEEK(40)+PEEK(41)*256
>>> : FOR X=0 TO 39 : C=PEEK(LB+X) : C=C-128*(C>127)
>>> : L$(Y)=L$(Y)+CHR$(C) : NEXT : NEXT
>>>
>>> To all that math on SCRN() values.
>>
>> That's one of the interesting things about these programs. I was
>> expecting - or hoping - to see more of a progression or evolution.
>> Instead the 4 variants found so far (of course there are many
>> others I haven't examined yet) are implemented very differently.
>>
>> The LEVI program does the following:
>> 1000 C1 = INT (CV / 8):C2 = CV - C1 * 8
>> :P = 1024 + 128 * C2 + 40 * C1 + CH:C = PEEK (P): RETURN
>>
>> Others use SCRN or pre-calculated data.
>>
>> Even the catalog data is not always obtained by executing the
>> DOS CATALOG command. CATSUP from Micro-sparc reads the catalog
>> from the disk and parses it! It's not that it's difficult,
>> but I didn't expect it.
>
> I made one that did that, using two entry points (one to read the 1st catalog
> sector, the other to read subsequent sectors) that i gleaned from a Beagle
> Bros program, and reading from the buffer by pointing a string variable
> there. Sadly, it's trapped on my dead Sider. :(
>
I know I did such a program but it was slow AF to read the catalog, so I
don't use it.
I do still have the code.
-uso.
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| Re: Origin of the "TYPE LETTER TO RUN" classic HELLO program? [message #393039 is a reply to message #392749] |
Thu, 09 April 2020 21:22 |
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Originally posted by: James Davis
On Sunday, April 5, 2020 at 11:49:42 AM UTC-7, Steve Nickolas wrote:
> On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, Brian Patrie wrote:
>
>> On 04/04/2020 07.22, Nick Westgate wrote:
>>> On Saturday, 4 April 2020 01:20:19 UTC+10, Brian Patrie wrote:
>>>> For reading the screen, i prefer the likes of
>>>>
>>>> DIM L$(24) : FOR Y=1 TO 24 : VTAB Y : LB=PEEK(40)+PEEK(41)*256
>>>> : FOR X=0 TO 39 : C=PEEK(LB+X) : C=C-128*(C>127)
>>>> : L$(Y)=L$(Y)+CHR$(C) : NEXT : NEXT
>>>>
>>>> To all that math on SCRN() values.
>>>
>>> That's one of the interesting things about these programs. I was
>>> expecting - or hoping - to see more of a progression or evolution.
>>> Instead the 4 variants found so far (of course there are many
>>> others I haven't examined yet) are implemented very differently.
>>>
>>> The LEVI program does the following:
>>> 1000 C1 = INT (CV / 8):C2 = CV - C1 * 8
>>> :P = 1024 + 128 * C2 + 40 * C1 + CH:C = PEEK (P): RETURN
>>>
>>> Others use SCRN or pre-calculated data.
>>>
>>> Even the catalog data is not always obtained by executing the
>>> DOS CATALOG command. CATSUP from Micro-sparc reads the catalog
>>> from the disk and parses it! It's not that it's difficult,
>>> but I didn't expect it.
>>
>> I made one that did that, using two entry points (one to read the 1st catalog
>> sector, the other to read subsequent sectors) that i gleaned from a Beagle
>> Bros program, and reading from the buffer by pointing a string variable
>> there. Sadly, it's trapped on my dead Sider. :(
>>
>
> I know I did such a program but it was slow AF to read the catalog, so I
> don't use it.
>
> I do still have the code.
>
> -uso.
Nick,
Did you ever get in touch with Larry Freman?
James
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