| Re: no more wires for you!, was: How a Space Engineer Made Her Own Rotary Cell Phone [message #390953 is a reply to message #390916] |
Sat, 15 February 2020 19:29   |
Joy Beeson
Messages: 159
Registered: June 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 03:40:33 -0000 (UTC), John Levine
<johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
> I don't think many people realize how reliable the copper network is
> (was?) and how much worse the "modern" replacements are. There's no
> reason fiber can't be very reliable but that costs money. My fiber
> comes from my local independent telco which takes their
> responsibilities seriously so the fiber modem comes with a UPS which
> is a lot larger than the modem itself and they tell me they'll replace
> the battery when it needs it. Verizon FIOS, on the other hand, comes
> with a lousy battery which you can replace at your own cost.
Several years ago I was telling the joke about how Mom and our
next-door neighbor a quarter mile away always both reported power
outages. Then one day Mom said "Mabel always reports it; I won't
bother" at exactly the moment that Mabel said the same thing.
And then it struck me: the power lines went down every time somebody
sneezed -- rural electric power was bleeding-edge tech at the time --
but Mom and Mabel were *always* able to report it. The phone lines
*never* went down.
Perhaps part of that was that the lines were powered by dry cells
sitting on the floor under every wall phone, and ringing current was
supplied by a hand-cranked generator.
--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/
|
|
|
|
| Re: no more wires for you!, was: How a Space Engineer Made Her Own Rotary Cell Phone [message #390960 is a reply to message #390938] |
Sat, 15 February 2020 23:35 |
pechter
Messages: 452
Registered: July 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
In article <2c029feb-0978-4a01-8ee4-2fce33e1b78b@googlegroups.com>,
<hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, February 15, 2020 at 4:05:57 PM UTC-5, John Levine wrote:
>
>> I agree that the problem is the power at the subscriber end. My fiber
>> modem has a substantial 7.2Ah backup battery but I gather a lot of
>> people don't get anything like that.
>
> A lot of people have nothing at all. Some may have had
> batteries when they first got FIOS, but the batteries
> are no longer working.
I was replacing batteries, but the ONT was replaced due to the phone
not working repeatedly after a power-fail (post Sandy we had a 14
day power outage--and the old copper would've worked)... and whenever
we had a power fail the smart-jack equivalent said we were ok but the phone
didn't get dial tone unless I pulled the supplied UPS and battery (I kept
it replaced). The only fix was a new ONT which used a pile of D cells
as a customer purchased UPS option.
I stuck a PC UPS on it and that's been fine. I also have UPS's (APC rack
mounts and others) on all my ethernet switches and ROKU boxes and TVs...
Everything here's been working during power failures -- don't know much about
the ONT bug. Fios Tech said they used 3-4 different ones and kept going
to new ones as they tried to cost-reduce and streamline the installs.
They also went through a number of routers. They don't seem to keep up with
the security bugs reported in the router firmware -- which is only available
through them -- when and if they push them out.
Got my own firewall behind theirs -- just in case.
Bill
>
> Many people find that the batteries don't last long enough.
> For instance, they may cover two hours but a power failure
> could last much longer.
>
--
__
Bill Pechter pechter-at-gmail.com
|
|
|
|
| Re: no more wires for you!, was: How a Space Engineer Made Her Own Rotary Cell Phone [message #390961 is a reply to message #390942] |
Sat, 15 February 2020 23:43 |
pechter
Messages: 452
Registered: July 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
In article <2iqg4f5dkn4tdh5kj1ju1mq8ndva0dn4be@4ax.com>,
J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 09:35:08 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
> <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>> On Saturday, February 15, 2020 at 6:39:20 AM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:
>>
>>> I'm sorry, John, but this is not Canada. Emergency service works fine
>>> with FIOS or coaxial cable or any other regulated telephone service in
>>> the US.
>>
>> I got this from reading a tech site about the situation in the US, not from
>> however things may be in Canada. Yes, people can access emergency
> services from
>> FIOS or VoIP over cable, but the requirements for reliability are different.
>
> Only to the extent that FIOS and cable require end-point power.
> Basically you have to have a long power outage and an emergency
> requiring 911 before there is an issue.
Yup -- like 14 days post-Sandy where the flooded power station left a major
part of the county powerless until new transformers were connected and cell
sites were overloaded. The local towns here all provided generator power
for people to come in and recharge cell phones.
Hardwire just worked. It costs a lot to maintain -- but before the Bell
System break up the guaranteed profit was enough for the company to provide
the necessary bodies to do the maintenance.
If you look up Manasquan NJ you might find the post-Sandy pictures of the
area as an island cut in two with a channel running through it. Verizon was
not interested in restoring the land lines to the area. Google should have
the pictures and stories.
Bill
--
__
Bill Pechter pechter-at-gmail.com
|
|
|
|
| Re: no more wires for you!, was: How a Space Engineer Made Her Own Rotary Cell Phone [message #390962 is a reply to message #390942] |
Sun, 16 February 2020 04:17 |
Quadibloc
Messages: 4399
Registered: June 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On Saturday, February 15, 2020 at 3:02:45 PM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:
> Only to the extent that FIOS and cable require end-point power.
> Basically you have to have a long power outage and an emergency
> requiring 911 before there is an issue.
I've done some Google searching, and it _is_ a fact in the United States that
the FCC mandates E911 compliance on regular copper-line phones, and does not on
cable and fiber phones.
While the situation you describe is not a common one, it still does actually
happen, leading to problems in such emergency situations.
One solution would be to get Cable TV companies out of the landline phone
business. All landline phones would have to be real landline phones, with an
old-fashioned copper connection, ensuring maximum operability in the event of an
emergency.
A second solution would be for the wall plate for a fiber-optic connection or a
cable TV connection to also have an electrical plug for the cable modem. One
that connects to electrical power supplied by the cable TV company, over a
separate set of wires, similar to, and with the same reliability as, the wires
by which the telephone system powers its telephones. This would have the
additional benefit of providing power usable for other things in an emergency.
Cell towers route cell phone calls over the regular telephone system, that's why
one can have a million cell phones in a city without using a million different
frequencies. So while cell towers stop working in emergencies, since they're
connected to the telephone system, just like old-style telephones are connected
to the telephone system... this can be *fixed*. Power the transmitters same way
you powered the ringers. All right, that may not exactly be _easy_, but it would
be possible in theory.
Basically, whatever AT&T did with copper wire, it can be done by others with
copper wire. (Including, an interesting thought, even the *power company*. Why
is electrical power so unreliable, if someone else could supply smaller amounts
of electricity in a reliable fashion?)
John Savard
|
|
|
|
| Re: no more wires for you!, was: How a Space Engineer Made Her Own Rotary Cell Phone [message #390964 is a reply to message #390962] |
Sun, 16 February 2020 05:25 |
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On Sun, 16 Feb 2020 01:17:54 -0800 (PST)
Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> Basically, whatever AT&T did with copper wire, it can be done by others
> with copper wire. (Including, an interesting thought, even the *power
> company*. Why is electrical power so unreliable, if someone else could
> supply smaller amounts of electricity in a reliable fashion?)
That's true here even though the overhead phone lines are obviously
poorly maintained with poles at angles and slack cateneries of cable
swinging in the wind all over the countryside while the power poles are all
vertical and clearly well maintained (the last power outage here was
because poles were being replaced on a maintenance schedule).
I can't put a finger on the difference that makes one more reliable
than the other, it may be that the phone line connections are all in well
protected housings with good strain relief while the power connections are
out in the open.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
|
|
|
|
| Re: no more wires for you!, was: How a Space Engineer Made Her Own Rotary Cell Phone [message #390965 is a reply to message #390962] |
Sun, 16 February 2020 11:11 |
|
|
Originally posted by: J. Clarke
On Sun, 16 Feb 2020 01:17:54 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
<jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> On Saturday, February 15, 2020 at 3:02:45 PM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> Only to the extent that FIOS and cable require end-point power.
>> Basically you have to have a long power outage and an emergency
>> requiring 911 before there is an issue.
>
> I've done some Google searching, and it _is_ a fact in the United States that
> the FCC mandates E911 compliance on regular copper-line phones, and does not on
> cable and fiber phones.
>
> While the situation you describe is not a common one, it still does actually
> happen, leading to problems in such emergency situations.
>
> One solution would be to get Cable TV companies out of the landline phone
> business. All landline phones would have to be real landline phones, with an
> old-fashioned copper connection, ensuring maximum operability in the event of an
> emergency.
>
> A second solution would be for the wall plate for a fiber-optic connection or a
> cable TV connection to also have an electrical plug for the cable modem. One
> that connects to electrical power supplied by the cable TV company, over a
> separate set of wires, similar to, and with the same reliability as, the wires
> by which the telephone system powers its telephones. This would have the
> additional benefit of providing power usable for other things in an emergency.
>
> Cell towers route cell phone calls over the regular telephone system, that's why
> one can have a million cell phones in a city without using a million different
> frequencies. So while cell towers stop working in emergencies, since they're
> connected to the telephone system, just like old-style telephones are connected
> to the telephone system... this can be *fixed*. Power the transmitters same way
> you powered the ringers. All right, that may not exactly be _easy_, but it would
> be possible in theory.
>
> Basically, whatever AT&T did with copper wire, it can be done by others with
> copper wire. (Including, an interesting thought, even the *power company*. Why
> is electrical power so unreliable, if someone else could supply smaller amounts
> of electricity in a reliable fashion?)
And of course you are going to send the US military to kill everybody
who doesn't support your brilliant plan.
Hint 1--I haven't had a copper land line for more than 20 years now
and I'm fine without it.
Hint 2--When I did have copper I saw as many days when I had power but
no phone as phone but no power. Copper phone lines fail too you know.
Or maybe, given that you seem to live under a rock, maybe you don't.
Hint 3--most people don't want to pay for obsolete services that they
never use just to assuage some do-gooder such as yourself.
|
|
|
|
| Re: no more wires for you!, was: How a Space Engineer Made Her Own Rotary Cell Phone [message #390968 is a reply to message #390934] |
Sun, 16 February 2020 12:47 |
Andy Burns
Messages: 416
Registered: June 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> The fibre cable has layer upon layer of
> protection surrounding a single hair fine optical fibre - it seemed that
> every time I thought I was looking at the fibre the installer would remove
> yet another layer, wipe the next layer with a solvent soaked cleaner and
> slip on another part of the connector - when the actual fibre was revealed
> I was astonished at how fine it was.
9 micron, as opposed to 50 micron used for "workaday" 1Gb or 10Gb
ethernet over fibre.
|
|
|
|
| Re: no more wires for you!, was: How a Space Engineer Made Her Own Rotary Cell Phone [message #390970 is a reply to message #390968] |
Sun, 16 February 2020 14:05 |
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On Sun, 16 Feb 2020 17:47:51 +0000
Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>> cleaner and slip on another part of the connector - when the actual
>> fibre was revealed I was astonished at how fine it was.
>
> 9 micron, as opposed to 50 micron used for "workaday" 1Gb or 10Gb
> ethernet over fibre.
That fine ? No wonder it handles such tight curves without losing
TIR, I was a bit surprised by that too.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
|
|
|
|
| Re: no more wires for you!, was: How a Space Engineer Made Her Own Rotary Cell Phone [message #390978 is a reply to message #390943] |
Mon, 17 February 2020 10:06 |
|
|
Originally posted by: JimP
On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 17:10:46 -0500, J. Clarke
<jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 12:52:20 -0800 (PST), hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>
>> On Friday, February 14, 2020 at 10:12:27 PM UTC-5, Quadibloc wrote:
>>
>>> The important key fact is not that older technology is being abandoned. What's
>>> wrong with that, isn't it a good thing to use the most modern and efficient
>>> means to achieve one's ends?
>>
>> Actually, old technology is being abandoned and customers
>> dependent on it are being screwed.
>>
>> What's wrong with it is that people with functioning machines
>> are forced to buy replacements and learn new technology
>> even if they don't want to nor need to.
>
> What kind of "functioning machines" are these that one is "forced to
> buy"? Same telephones work on FIOS, the cable box, and copper.
>
> What "new technology" does anybody have to "learn"? The phone rings,
> you answer it. You want to make a call, you push the numbers on the
> phone and wait for it to start ringing.
>
>> It's like this in computers. People with older but still
>> operating machines find they are obsolete and don't work
>> since their web browser no longer works or their software
>> (like WORD) isn't compatible with others. Such people are
>> forced to upgrade to a new machine prematurely.
>
> Maybe it's "like this with computers" but land-line telephones aren't
> computers.
>
>>> The key fact is that access to emergency services like 911 is mandated by law
>>> for POTS - good old copper-wire telephony - but if you're offering telephone
>>> service in the form of VoIP on Cable TV coaxial cables, or on fiber optic cable,
>>> you don't have that regulatory obligation. So one still has a telephone - but a
>>> lower level of reliable access to emergency services.
>>
>> The telecom newsgroup is filled with reports of 911 being
>> unavailable.
>
> What, their phone works for everything else but when they dial 911
> nothing happens?
The location seen by the 911 operator was not the location of the
caller. That has since been fixed.
--
Jim
|
|
|
|
| Re: no more wires for you!, was: How a Space Engineer Made Her Own Rotary Cell Phone [message #390979 is a reply to message #390951] |
Mon, 17 February 2020 10:09 |
|
|
Originally posted by: JimP
On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 16:46:50 -0700, Peter Flass
<peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 13:11:04 -0800 (PST), hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>> On Saturday, February 15, 2020 at 4:05:57 PM UTC-5, John Levine wrote:
>>>
>>>> I agree that the problem is the power at the subscriber end. My fiber
>>>> modem has a substantial 7.2Ah backup battery but I gather a lot of
>>>> people don't get anything like that.
>>>
>>> A lot of people have nothing at all. Some may have had
>>> batteries when they first got FIOS, but the batteries
>>> are no longer working.
>>>
>>> Many people find that the batteries don't last long enough.
>>> For instance, they may cover two hours but a power failure
>>> could last much longer.
>>
>> After Hurricane Katrina hit, the only thing still available for
>> communication were the phone lines on copper, and ham radio.
>
> At least they have portable cell towers with generators that can be erected
> quickly, probably not enough of them though. What needs to happen is that
> the government has to mandate how long intact towers need to function
> without external power, whether generator, batteries, solar, or whatever,
> and this needs to be in days, not hours.
Not all cell towers were knocked down. Those towers were opened to
users who had contracts with other phone companies.
But many did go down, Katrina was a CAT 3 when it hit land.
--
Jim
|
|
|
|
| Re: no more wires for you!, was: How a Space Engineer Made Her Own Rotary Cell Phone [message #390980 is a reply to message #390965] |
Mon, 17 February 2020 10:11 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Feb 2020 01:17:54 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
> <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>> On Saturday, February 15, 2020 at 3:02:45 PM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:
>>
>>> Only to the extent that FIOS and cable require end-point power.
>>> Basically you have to have a long power outage and an emergency
>>> requiring 911 before there is an issue.
>>
>> I've done some Google searching, and it _is_ a fact in the United States that
>> the FCC mandates E911 compliance on regular copper-line phones, and does not on
>> cable and fiber phones.
>>
>> While the situation you describe is not a common one, it still does actually
>> happen, leading to problems in such emergency situations.
>>
>> One solution would be to get Cable TV companies out of the landline phone
>> business. All landline phones would have to be real landline phones, with an
>> old-fashioned copper connection, ensuring maximum operability in the event of an
>> emergency.
>>
>> A second solution would be for the wall plate for a fiber-optic connection or a
>> cable TV connection to also have an electrical plug for the cable modem. One
>> that connects to electrical power supplied by the cable TV company, over a
>> separate set of wires, similar to, and with the same reliability as, the wires
>> by which the telephone system powers its telephones. This would have the
>> additional benefit of providing power usable for other things in an emergency.
>>
>> Cell towers route cell phone calls over the regular telephone system, that's why
>> one can have a million cell phones in a city without using a million different
>> frequencies. So while cell towers stop working in emergencies, since they're
>> connected to the telephone system, just like old-style telephones are connected
>> to the telephone system... this can be *fixed*. Power the transmitters same way
>> you powered the ringers. All right, that may not exactly be _easy_, but it would
>> be possible in theory.
>>
>> Basically, whatever AT&T did with copper wire, it can be done by others with
>> copper wire. (Including, an interesting thought, even the *power company*. Why
>> is electrical power so unreliable, if someone else could supply smaller amounts
>> of electricity in a reliable fashion?)
>
> And of course you are going to send the US military to kill everybody
> who doesn't support your brilliant plan.
>
> Hint 1--I haven't had a copper land line for more than 20 years now
> and I'm fine without it.
> Hint 2--When I did have copper I saw as many days when I had power but
> no phone as phone but no power. Copper phone lines fail too you know.
> Or maybe, given that you seem to live under a rock, maybe you don't.
> Hint 3--most people don't want to pay for obsolete services that they
> never use just to assuage some do-gooder such as yourself.
>
In 30 years in our old house we had the phone fail exactly once, just
before we moved. Verizon had a guy out that day to fix a bad demark.
Conversely, despite having underground electrical service, we had a failure
at least once almost every year, sometimes more.
--
Pete
|
|
|
|
| Re: no more wires for you!, was: How a Space Engineer Made Her Own Rotary Cell Phone [message #390988 is a reply to message #390980] |
Mon, 17 February 2020 10:25 |
|
|
Originally posted by: J. Clarke
On Mon, 17 Feb 2020 08:11:00 -0700, Peter Flass
<peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 16 Feb 2020 01:17:54 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
>> <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> On Saturday, February 15, 2020 at 3:02:45 PM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>
>>>> Only to the extent that FIOS and cable require end-point power.
>>>> Basically you have to have a long power outage and an emergency
>>>> requiring 911 before there is an issue.
>>>
>>> I've done some Google searching, and it _is_ a fact in the United States that
>>> the FCC mandates E911 compliance on regular copper-line phones, and does not on
>>> cable and fiber phones.
>>>
>>> While the situation you describe is not a common one, it still does actually
>>> happen, leading to problems in such emergency situations.
>>>
>>> One solution would be to get Cable TV companies out of the landline phone
>>> business. All landline phones would have to be real landline phones, with an
>>> old-fashioned copper connection, ensuring maximum operability in the event of an
>>> emergency.
>>>
>>> A second solution would be for the wall plate for a fiber-optic connection or a
>>> cable TV connection to also have an electrical plug for the cable modem. One
>>> that connects to electrical power supplied by the cable TV company, over a
>>> separate set of wires, similar to, and with the same reliability as, the wires
>>> by which the telephone system powers its telephones. This would have the
>>> additional benefit of providing power usable for other things in an emergency.
>>>
>>> Cell towers route cell phone calls over the regular telephone system, that's why
>>> one can have a million cell phones in a city without using a million different
>>> frequencies. So while cell towers stop working in emergencies, since they're
>>> connected to the telephone system, just like old-style telephones are connected
>>> to the telephone system... this can be *fixed*. Power the transmitters same way
>>> you powered the ringers. All right, that may not exactly be _easy_, but it would
>>> be possible in theory.
>>>
>>> Basically, whatever AT&T did with copper wire, it can be done by others with
>>> copper wire. (Including, an interesting thought, even the *power company*. Why
>>> is electrical power so unreliable, if someone else could supply smaller amounts
>>> of electricity in a reliable fashion?)
>>
>> And of course you are going to send the US military to kill everybody
>> who doesn't support your brilliant plan.
>>
>> Hint 1--I haven't had a copper land line for more than 20 years now
>> and I'm fine without it.
>> Hint 2--When I did have copper I saw as many days when I had power but
>> no phone as phone but no power. Copper phone lines fail too you know.
>> Or maybe, given that you seem to live under a rock, maybe you don't.
>> Hint 3--most people don't want to pay for obsolete services that they
>> never use just to assuage some do-gooder such as yourself.
>>
>
> In 30 years in our old house we had the phone fail exactly once, just
> before we moved.
Are you sure? You're assuming it was working 24/7. It could have had
many outages of an hour or two or ten depending on the time of day in
which you would have been unaware of the outage. You only know that
the phone is out when you pick it up and don't have a dial tone.
> Verizon had a guy out that day to fix a bad demark.
> Conversely, despite having underground electrical service, we had a failure
> at least once almost every year, sometimes more.
|
|
|
|
| Re: no more wires for you!, was: How a Space Engineer Made Her Own Rotary Cell Phone [message #391016 is a reply to message #390942] |
Tue, 18 February 2020 14:02 |
hancock4
Messages: 6746
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On Saturday, February 15, 2020 at 5:02:45 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 09:35:08 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
> <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>> On Saturday, February 15, 2020 at 6:39:20 AM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:
>>
>>> I'm sorry, John, but this is not Canada. Emergency service works fine
>>> with FIOS or coaxial cable or any other regulated telephone service in
>>> the US.
>>
>> I got this from reading a tech site about the situation in the US, not from
>> however things may be in Canada. Yes, people can access emergency services from
>> FIOS or VoIP over cable, but the requirements for reliability are different.
>
> Only to the extent that FIOS and cable require end-point power.
> Basically you have to have a long power outage and an emergency
> requiring 911 before there is an issue.
Our cable TV is notoriously unreliable from even the shortest
power failures. that is, even a five minute outage kills
the cable system and it takes a long time to reboot.
It would be worthless to support a voice telephone.
They tell me FIOS batteries at the house last a few hours. Most
serious power failures go beyond that, such as 12 hours. So
then FIOS is worthless too.
In contrast, the traditional landline from the phone company
is covered by central office power. That consists of high
capacity batteries backed up by a diesel generator. I believe
midpoint junction or concentrator boxes are powered by lines
from the central office, so they keep running.
But as mentioned, this kind of service is expensive and
the carriers are not interested in providing it anymore
Further, the customers don't want it, in favor of cell phones.
Having a landline is out of style.
|
|
|
|
| Re: no more wires for you!, was: How a Space Engineer Made Her Own Rotary Cell Phone [message #391017 is a reply to message #390949] |
Tue, 18 February 2020 14:03 |
hancock4
Messages: 6746
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On Saturday, February 15, 2020 at 6:46:49 PM UTC-5, Peter Flass wrote:
> Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>> On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 01:22:35 +0000 (UTC), danny burstein wrote:
>>>
>>> In <nsce4fpr6ur5f0t7bu5idgmraft10a2u6b@4ax.com> J. Clarke
>>> <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> > In others, like NYC, they simply got PSC approval to dump
>>>> > the copper wires that ran back to the central office.
>>>
>>>> Source?
>>>
>>> The specific NYC one? I read it when they published, but
>>> I'm not going to waste the time to find those entries.
>>>
>>> But here's a good writeup from Virginia:
>>>
>>> https://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/cableconsumer/cable/verizons-m igration-from-copper-to-fiber-aug-2016
>>
>> That's an upgrade.
>>
>> May be I wasn't clear enough. I meant companies want to scrap their
>> landline services. Nothing to do whether to use copper, fiber or
>> what ever medium transports the landline service.
>>
>> Cannot find any source though.
>
> I recall they DID want to do this after Sandy.
Yes. Verizon wanted to dump neighbors because they didn't
feel like investing in new cable to serve a severed community.
The telecom newsgroup discussed this at length with numerous
examples of Vz seeking to pull the plug.
|
|
|
|
| Re: no more wires for you!, was: How a Space Engineer Made Her Own Rotary Cell Phone [message #391018 is a reply to message #390951] |
Tue, 18 February 2020 14:06 |
hancock4
Messages: 6746
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On Saturday, February 15, 2020 at 6:46:53 PM UTC-5, Peter Flass wrote:
>> After Hurricane Katrina hit, the only thing still available for
>> communication were the phone lines on copper, and ham radio.
>
> At least they have portable cell towers with generators that can be erected
> quickly, probably not enough of them though. What needs to happen is that
> the government has to mandate how long intact towers need to function
> without external power, whether generator, batteries, solar, or whatever,
> and this needs to be in days, not hours.
The government needs to mandate many things about communications
these days in order to protect the public. Service quality sucks.
Unfortunately, today's regulators are either hamstrung by
conservatives who fervently believe the free market is the
only way to go*, or by regulators who are incompetent and
don't understand technology. An example is robocalls--
they pass laws against them that are totally unenforceable
so the laws are a waste of time and consumers still suffer.
* Helped along by powerful lobbyists of the carriers who
don't want any regulation.
>
>>
>> Any kind of radio/tv tower, police radio tower, etc. was down or
>> broken. Cell phone towers were out.
>>
>> The UPS batteries on the cell twoers lasted a short while.
>>
>> We came back to the area after a week of self evacuating. We had
>> satellite tv so we got news and weather that way. One of the local tv
>> stations, and one or two radio stations, had emergency antennas up and
>> were working from generator. The local tv staton said to not call out
>> of the area because most phone lines were out.
>>
>> DSL lines were shut off. I know because one of my coworkers had it as
>> his Internet connection.
>>
>> This is of course where neighborhoods still had standing buildings.
>>
>> VoIP requires Internet to be up, it wasn't. Cell phones require
>> working towers, there were none.
>>
>> The copper lines that still existed, not flooded nor destroyed by the
>> weather, worked.
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Pete
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: no more wires for you!, was: How a Space Engineer Made Her Own Rotary Cell Phone [message #391021 is a reply to message #390988] |
Tue, 18 February 2020 17:19 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 17 Feb 2020 08:11:00 -0700, Peter Flass
> <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 16 Feb 2020 01:17:54 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
>>> <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Saturday, February 15, 2020 at 3:02:45 PM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > Only to the extent that FIOS and cable require end-point power.
>>>> > Basically you have to have a long power outage and an emergency
>>>> > requiring 911 before there is an issue.
>>>>
>>>> I've done some Google searching, and it _is_ a fact in the United States that
>>>> the FCC mandates E911 compliance on regular copper-line phones, and does not on
>>>> cable and fiber phones.
>>>>
>>>> While the situation you describe is not a common one, it still does actually
>>>> happen, leading to problems in such emergency situations.
>>>>
>>>> One solution would be to get Cable TV companies out of the landline phone
>>>> business. All landline phones would have to be real landline phones, with an
>>>> old-fashioned copper connection, ensuring maximum operability in the event of an
>>>> emergency.
>>>>
>>>> A second solution would be for the wall plate for a fiber-optic connection or a
>>>> cable TV connection to also have an electrical plug for the cable modem. One
>>>> that connects to electrical power supplied by the cable TV company, over a
>>>> separate set of wires, similar to, and with the same reliability as, the wires
>>>> by which the telephone system powers its telephones. This would have the
>>>> additional benefit of providing power usable for other things in an emergency.
>>>>
>>>> Cell towers route cell phone calls over the regular telephone system, that's why
>>>> one can have a million cell phones in a city without using a million different
>>>> frequencies. So while cell towers stop working in emergencies, since they're
>>>> connected to the telephone system, just like old-style telephones are connected
>>>> to the telephone system... this can be *fixed*. Power the transmitters same way
>>>> you powered the ringers. All right, that may not exactly be _easy_, but it would
>>>> be possible in theory.
>>>>
>>>> Basically, whatever AT&T did with copper wire, it can be done by others with
>>>> copper wire. (Including, an interesting thought, even the *power company*. Why
>>>> is electrical power so unreliable, if someone else could supply smaller amounts
>>>> of electricity in a reliable fashion?)
>>>
>>> And of course you are going to send the US military to kill everybody
>>> who doesn't support your brilliant plan.
>>>
>>> Hint 1--I haven't had a copper land line for more than 20 years now
>>> and I'm fine without it.
>>> Hint 2--When I did have copper I saw as many days when I had power but
>>> no phone as phone but no power. Copper phone lines fail too you know.
>>> Or maybe, given that you seem to live under a rock, maybe you don't.
>>> Hint 3--most people don't want to pay for obsolete services that they
>>> never use just to assuage some do-gooder such as yourself.
>>>
>>
>> In 30 years in our old house we had the phone fail exactly once, just
>> before we moved.
>
> Are you sure? You're assuming it was working 24/7. It could have had
> many outages of an hour or two or ten depending on the time of day in
> which you would have been unaware of the outage. You only know that
> the phone is out when you pick it up and don't have a dial tone.
>
>> Verizon had a guy out that day to fix a bad demark.
>> Conversely, despite having underground electrical service, we had a failure
>> at least once almost every year, sometimes more.
>
As long as every time I pick it up it has a dial tone. I don’t care what it
does in its time off.
--
Pete
|
|
|
|
| Re: no more wires for you!, was: How a Space Engineer Made Her Own Rotary Cell Phone [message #391022 is a reply to message #391016] |
Tue, 18 February 2020 17:19 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
<hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, February 15, 2020 at 5:02:45 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 09:35:08 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
>> <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> On Saturday, February 15, 2020 at 6:39:20 AM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm sorry, John, but this is not Canada. Emergency service works fine
>>>> with FIOS or coaxial cable or any other regulated telephone service in
>>>> the US.
>>>
>>> I got this from reading a tech site about the situation in the US, not from
>>> however things may be in Canada. Yes, people can access emergency services from
>>> FIOS or VoIP over cable, but the requirements for reliability are different.
>>
>> Only to the extent that FIOS and cable require end-point power.
>> Basically you have to have a long power outage and an emergency
>> requiring 911 before there is an issue.
>
> Our cable TV is notoriously unreliable from even the shortest
> power failures. that is, even a five minute outage kills
> the cable system and it takes a long time to reboot.
> It would be worthless to support a voice telephone.
I can’t figure out the long reboot times. Time-Warner and Cox have the same
problem. My computer reboots faster.
>
> They tell me FIOS batteries at the house last a few hours. Most
> serious power failures go beyond that, such as 12 hours. So
> then FIOS is worthless too.
>
> In contrast, the traditional landline from the phone company
> is covered by central office power. That consists of high
> capacity batteries backed up by a diesel generator. I believe
> midpoint junction or concentrator boxes are powered by lines
> from the central office, so they keep running.
>
> But as mentioned, this kind of service is expensive and
> the carriers are not interested in providing it anymore
> Further, the customers don't want it, in favor of cell phones.
>
> Having a landline is out of style.
>
>
--
Pete
|
|
|
|
| Re: no more wires for you!, was: How a Space Engineer Made Her Own Rotary Cell Phone [message #391029 is a reply to message #390943] |
Tue, 18 February 2020 17:27 |
usenet
Messages: 556
Registered: May 2013
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 17:10:46 -0500, J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 12:52:20 -0800 (PST), hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>
>> On Friday, February 14, 2020 at 10:12:27 PM UTC-5, Quadibloc wrote:
>>
>>> The important key fact is not that older technology is being abandoned. What's
>>> wrong with that, isn't it a good thing to use the most modern and efficient
>>> means to achieve one's ends?
>>
>> Actually, old technology is being abandoned and customers
>> dependent on it are being screwed.
>>
>> What's wrong with it is that people with functioning machines
>> are forced to buy replacements and learn new technology
>> even if they don't want to nor need to.
>
> What kind of "functioning machines" are these that one is "forced to
> buy"? Same telephones work on FIOS, the cable box, and copper.
>
> What "new technology" does anybody have to "learn"? The phone rings,
> you answer it. You want to make a call, you push the numbers on the
> phone and wait for it to start ringing.
>
>> It's like this in computers. People with older but still
>> operating machines find they are obsolete and don't work
>> since their web browser no longer works or their software
>> (like WORD) isn't compatible with others. Such people are
>> forced to upgrade to a new machine prematurely.
>
> Maybe it's "like this with computers" but land-line telephones aren't
> computers.
>
>>> The key fact is that access to emergency services like 911 is mandated by law
>>> for POTS - good old copper-wire telephony - but if you're offering telephone
>>> service in the form of VoIP on Cable TV coaxial cables, or on fiber optic cable,
>>> you don't have that regulatory obligation. So one still has a telephone - but a
>>> lower level of reliable access to emergency services.
>>
>> The telecom newsgroup is filled with reports of 911 being
>> unavailable.
>
> What, their phone works for everything else but when they dial 911
> nothing happens?
Whether they get an error message or "nothing happens" depends on the specific
fault involved. The end result is a subscriber dials 911 and they are not
connected to a dispatcher at a PSAP. The E911 system uses different circuitry
than the regular telephone switching.
Since January 1st, there have been six posts in comp.dcom.telecom regarding E911
failures in Florida, Michigan, Pennsylvannia, South Carolina, Washington, and
West Virginia. In other words, so far in 2020 there has been on average a 911
outage somewhere in the U.S. once a week.
|
|
|
|
| Re: no more wires for you!, was: How a Space Engineer Made Her Own Rotary Cell Phone [message #391031 is a reply to message #391022] |
Tue, 18 February 2020 19:30 |
|
|
Originally posted by: J. Clarke
On Tue, 18 Feb 2020 15:19:03 -0700, Peter Flass
<peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>> On Saturday, February 15, 2020 at 5:02:45 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 09:35:08 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
>>> <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Saturday, February 15, 2020 at 6:39:20 AM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > I'm sorry, John, but this is not Canada. Emergency service works fine
>>>> > with FIOS or coaxial cable or any other regulated telephone service in
>>>> > the US.
>>>>
>>>> I got this from reading a tech site about the situation in the US, not from
>>>> however things may be in Canada. Yes, people can access emergency services from
>>>> FIOS or VoIP over cable, but the requirements for reliability are different.
>>>
>>> Only to the extent that FIOS and cable require end-point power.
>>> Basically you have to have a long power outage and an emergency
>>> requiring 911 before there is an issue.
>>
>> Our cable TV is notoriously unreliable from even the shortest
>> power failures. that is, even a five minute outage kills
>> the cable system and it takes a long time to reboot.
>> It would be worthless to support a voice telephone.
>
> I can’t figure out the long reboot times. Time-Warner and Cox have the same
> problem. My computer reboots faster.
A million routers all hitting the DHCP server at the same time?
>> They tell me FIOS batteries at the house last a few hours. Most
>> serious power failures go beyond that, such as 12 hours. So
>> then FIOS is worthless too.
>>
>> In contrast, the traditional landline from the phone company
>> is covered by central office power. That consists of high
>> capacity batteries backed up by a diesel generator. I believe
>> midpoint junction or concentrator boxes are powered by lines
>> from the central office, so they keep running.
>>
>> But as mentioned, this kind of service is expensive and
>> the carriers are not interested in providing it anymore
>> Further, the customers don't want it, in favor of cell phones.
>>
>> Having a landline is out of style.
>>
>>
|
|
|
|
|
|
Members
Search
Help
Register
Login
Home
