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Re: Office jobs eroding [message #390008 is a reply to message #390007] Sun, 05 January 2020 23:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
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On 2020-01-06, Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:

> On Sun, 05 Jan 2020 11:36:42 -0500, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Personally, I buy re-usable shopping bags.
>
> That doesn't stop the accumulation of plastic bags unless you make a
> real pest of yourself.
>
> Well, not even then.

You have to be fast. Before the casher pulls out a plastic bag, drop
your re-usable bag (or backpack, if you've been ultra-eco-friendly
and ridden there on your bicycle) in front of her, and tell her to
put everything right into your bag.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.
Re: Light 'Bulbs' [message #390009 is a reply to message #390004] Mon, 06 January 2020 00:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: jmreno

On 1/5/2020 3:44 PM, Dan Espen wrote:
> scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:
>
>> Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> writes:
>>>
>>> Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 2020-01-05, Kerr-Mudd,John <notsaying@invalid.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > I can't see why an oven light would need to be incandescent.
>>>>
>>>> Because the electronics required to run an LED would survive about
>>>> 3 minutes at oven temps.
>>>
>>> The only LED I've scrutinized was behaving erratically so I sawed it
>>> open with an abrasive wheel. The bulb itself was plastic. I'd expect
>>> it to shrivel, sag, emit toxic fumes, burst into flame or all of those
>>> in an oven. BTW, the dismantled unit could still light up. The LED
>>> light not filtered by the milky plastic "bulb" is incredibly intense
>>> and garish.
>>>
>>> I'm lighting my studio/shop/atelier with 300W incandescents. I'm
>>> gonna be really annoyed when I run out and have to figure out an
>>> alternative. Using incandescent-look-alike halogens in the house as I
>>> only have a coupleof dozen 100W incandescents left.
>>
>> I illuminate my shop with F96T12 C50's. 8 of them. 5000k color
>> temperature is best for color matching wood and finishes.
>>
>> The new shop will likely have LED versions of the same (nine 8-foot duals
>> on three circuits) color temperature.
>
> I have a plant light stand where I grow African Violets.
> It uses 4 T40 tubes.
> I changed it from florescent to LED and I love the color temp.
> The plants aren't complaining either.
> Florescents were a pain in the butt.
> I was happy to remove the ballasts and chuck them.
>
> This was many years ago.
> The LEDs are still as bright as they were the first day.
> If this was still florescent I'd have to have changed
> the bulbs at least once by now.
>
> I'm just thinking, these LED lights might outlive me...
>

I never did like those newfangled incandescent lights.

I use only good old gas lights in my house.

But for those times I need a really bright light I have a few nice arc
lights that I got for free from a movie theater that was converting from
film to video.

And my "entertainment center" is an Atwater Kent Model 35.
Unfortunately, there isn't much to listen to anymore.

My favorite show is X Minus One but it hasn't been on lately.
Re: Office jobs eroding [message #390010 is a reply to message #390006] Mon, 06 January 2020 02:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andy Burns is currently offline  Andy Burns
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Registered: June 2012
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Senior Member
Dan Espen wrote:

> If you have any dimmer issues, the first thing to do is get
> a dimmer meant for LEDs if you don't already have one.

This.

The magic phrase (on this side of the pond at least) is "trailing edge
dimmer", the better ones are programmable (by rapid toggling of the
switch) to suit incandescent/LED lamps, I would recommend Varilight
except they don't seem to cater for 110V.
Re: Office jobs eroding [message #390011 is a reply to message #390008] Mon, 06 January 2020 03:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jorgen Grahn is currently offline  Jorgen Grahn
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Registered: March 2012
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On Mon, 2020-01-06, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2020-01-06, Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 05 Jan 2020 11:36:42 -0500, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Personally, I buy re-usable shopping bags.
>>
>> That doesn't stop the accumulation of plastic bags unless you make a
>> real pest of yourself.
>>
>> Well, not even then.
>
> You have to be fast. Before the casher pulls out a plastic bag, drop
> your re-usable bag (or backpack, if you've been ultra-eco-friendly
> and ridden there on your bicycle) in front of her, and tell her to
> put everything right into your bag.

Wow. Around here, if you're at the supermarket, you're responsible
for picking a bag and paying for it, if you need one. In other stores
they tend to ask you. In a few, you have to be fast, as you say.

There's noone packing the bags for you. Would be way too
expensive to pay someone decent wages to do it, and swedes see
this as Their Own Damned Job.

We also had Plastic Bag Shaming during 2019, and some EU directive
against them. Plastic grocery bags are low status markers now.
they're used by immigrants, alcoholics and hicks.

Which is unfortunate because:

- I can use a single plastic grocery bag for years, if I'm careful.

- Most plastic you bring home from the store isn't in the grocery
bags. E.g. you can't buy milk anymore without bringing home a big
chunk of plastic.

- Anti-environmentalists got a great example for free.

- The problem with plastic in the oceans comes (as the right wing
anti-environmentalists happily points out) mostly from East Asia.

/Jorgen

--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
Re: Office jobs eroding [message #390012 is a reply to message #390001] Mon, 06 January 2020 04:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
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On 5 Jan 2020 23:19:04 GMT
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

> It seems to be an ongoing evolution. Every couple of years they seem
> to be able to handle dimmers better.

Mine handle a dimmer wonderfully - I use 12V PWM dimmers! It is far
easier to drive LEDs properly than to try and make them pretend to be
incandescents.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Office jobs eroding [message #390013 is a reply to message #389691] Mon, 06 January 2020 04:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
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On Sun, 5 Jan 2020 13:08:44 -0600
Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> wrote:

> Our big grocery chain does have bins for them. It's not really any
> more effort to take a bag o' bags if you're going there to shop
> anyhow.

'swot I've always done, originally they were aSnibsruy's big paper
bags which were so much stronger than the plastic ones. These days there's
a bag of cold bags and a bag of ordinary bags in the car.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Office jobs eroding [message #390014 is a reply to message #389691] Mon, 06 January 2020 05:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andy Burns is currently offline  Andy Burns
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Registered: June 2012
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Huge wrote:

> So not only do we have to replace the fittings, but the dimmers as
> well. Am I the only one that smells a rat?

Presumably you don't have all your lights on dimmers, just a couple of
rooms? Hardly a big expense. Alternatively have a main, and one or
more extra lights in each room and switch them as appropriate ...

I did change to CFLs (and halogens for dimmable rooms) but they weren't
great so now I have LEDs everywhere except some fluorescent tubes in
garage/shed and the old CFLs relegated to the loft.
Re: Office jobs eroding [message #390015 is a reply to message #390003] Mon, 06 January 2020 09:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
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Senior Member
J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 5 Jan 2020 23:19:04 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2020-01-05, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5 Jan 2020 10:20:19 GMT
>>> Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Depends if you like dim green light and mercury, I guess.
>>>
>>> The ones I used before LEDs had decent light with a selection of
>>> colour temperatures and the 30W ones kicked out a lot of light, mostly I
>>> used the 22W ones which were decent enough. I did have to hunt around for
>>> decent ones though, there was an awful lot of crud on the market and the
>>> suggested ones were ridiculously under-powered in order to push the energy
>>> savings which were real but not as good as advertised.
>>
>> We tried a couple of CFLs when they first came out. We hate the light;
>> it's a sickly colour which we find totally unfit for indoor use. We have
>> a couple of CFLs left in outside fixtures where the colour doesn't matter
>> much, and when they die we'll replace them with something else (probably LED).
>>
>>> LEDs are a vast improvement, I look forward to the next iteration.
>>
>> It seems to be an ongoing evolution. Every couple of years they seem
>> to be able to handle dimmers better.
>>
>> When we remodeled back around 2007, we put in pot lights everywhere.
>> Originally they had 50-watt halogen PAR20s, which run so hot that
>> sometimes the bases unsolder themselves. We have over 20 in the
>> kitchen / dining room area, which meant that we were pulling over
>> a kilowatt with them all on. But the light is wonderful.
>>
>> Over the past few years we've been phasing in LEDs - the price
>> is falling on drop-in replacements for the PAR20 halogens, and
>> a 3000K model puts out light that's acceptably close in quality
>> to halogens. We've been slower to replace the dimmed ones, though -
>> even though the newest ones don't flicker when dimmed, most of
>> them won't dim all the way down, and unlike halogens the colour
>> temperature remains the same when dimmed, which looks unnatural
>> (and is quite a mismatch next to a halogen). Still, though,
>> knocking that kilowatt down to 150 watts reflects nicely on
>> our electric bill.
>
> FWIW, I have some Philips clear globe bulbs that change color
> temperature as they dim-they don't exactly match the incandescents in
> the same fixture but they're close enough. They don't go all the way
> down though--at first I was annoyed but where they're located it's
> nice to have a night light.
>

I was just reading about a computer restoration where there was some effort
to match the appearance of incandescent panel lights with LEDs, including
the color change when powering off.

--
Pete
Re: Office jobs eroding [message #390016 is a reply to message #390007] Mon, 06 January 2020 09:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
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Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
> On Sun, 05 Jan 2020 11:36:42 -0500, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Personally, I buy re-usable shopping bags.
>
> That doesn't stop the accumulation of plastic bags unless you make a
> real pest of yourself.
>
> Well, not even then.
>

We use plastic grocery bags as wastebasket liners, which at least saves us
from buying bags specifically for the wastebaskets.

--
Pete
Re: Light 'Bulbs' [message #390017 is a reply to message #389967] Mon, 06 January 2020 09:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
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On 6 Jan 2020 10:19:53 GMT
Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:

> I recently rewired my barn/workshop/garage and used 35W (I think) LED
> batten fittings (noname Chinese from eBay). Ten of them. It's great in
> there now; I can actually see WTF I'm doing.

350W of LED lighting ? How big is your workshop ? I'm using 60W[1]
of LED strips (three 4m lengths at 5W/m) to light my 30 square metre
kitchen, visitors comment on how bright and clear[2] the light is in there.

[1] At 12V, add about 20% for power supply and cable losses to get the
mains draw.
[2] Using long strips of light results in very even light with little
shadow.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Office jobs eroding [message #390018 is a reply to message #390007] Mon, 06 January 2020 09:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dan Espen is currently offline  Dan Espen
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Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> writes:

> On Sun, 05 Jan 2020 11:36:42 -0500, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Personally, I buy re-usable shopping bags.
>
> That doesn't stop the accumulation of plastic bags unless you make a
> real pest of yourself.
>
> Well, not even then.

Okay, not clear to me how being a pest has any bearing
on the plastic bag outcome?

I just got one of my shopping bags in my junk mail.

They last pretty long, I've had a few of them for multiple years.

--
Dan Espen
Re: Office jobs eroding [message #390019 is a reply to message #390008] Mon, 06 January 2020 09:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dan Espen is currently offline  Dan Espen
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Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:

> On 2020-01-06, Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 05 Jan 2020 11:36:42 -0500, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Personally, I buy re-usable shopping bags.
>>
>> That doesn't stop the accumulation of plastic bags unless you make a
>> real pest of yourself.
>>
>> Well, not even then.
>
> You have to be fast. Before the casher pulls out a plastic bag, drop
> your re-usable bag (or backpack, if you've been ultra-eco-friendly
> and ridden there on your bicycle) in front of her, and tell her to
> put everything right into your bag.

Still not getting the pest part.

I haven't used a cashier since they started self checkout.

--
Dan Espen
plastic bags, was: Office jobs eroding [message #390020 is a reply to message #390016] Mon, 06 January 2020 09:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
danny burstein is currently offline  danny burstein
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Member
In <2023267094.600013116.732632.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:

> Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
>> On Sun, 05 Jan 2020 11:36:42 -0500, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Personally, I buy re-usable shopping bags.
>>
>> That doesn't stop the accumulation of plastic bags unless you make a
>> real pest of yourself.
>>
>> Well, not even then.
>>

> We use plastic grocery bags as wastebasket liners, which at least saves us
> from buying bags specifically for the wastebaskets.

> --
> Pete
--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
dannyb@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]
plastic bags, was: Office jobs eroding [message #390021 is a reply to message #390016] Mon, 06 January 2020 09:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
danny burstein is currently offline  danny burstein
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(apologies for prior, empty, post. I hit the send keys too early)

In <2023267094.600013116.732632.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:

[snippeth]

> We use plastic grocery bags as wastebasket liners, which at least saves us
> from buying bags specifically for the wastebaskets.

They also come in handy for people with dogs who lived in civilized
areas that wish to "scoop the poop".


--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
dannyb@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]
Re: Office jobs eroding [message #390022 is a reply to message #389691] Mon, 06 January 2020 09:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
scott is currently offline  scott
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Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> writes:
> On 2020-01-06, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
>> Huge wrote:
>>
>>> So not only do we have to replace the fittings, but the dimmers as
>>> well. Am I the only one that smells a rat?
>>
>> Presumably you don't have all your lights on dimmers, just a couple of
>> rooms? Hardly a big expense. Alternatively have a main, and one or
>> more extra lights in each room and switch them as appropriate ...
>>
>> I did change to CFLs (and halogens for dimmable rooms)
>
> Halogens don't take well to being dimmed,

Are you sure? In my theatrical lighting days, all the lamps were
halogen filled with tungsten filaments. 500w to 3000w per each. Don't
touch the glass with bare fingers, or the bulbs will fail prematurely
due to the oil from your fingers creating a hotspot on the outer
envelope.

They dimmed quite well.
Re: Office jobs eroding [message #390023 is a reply to message #390022] Mon, 06 January 2020 11:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andy Burns is currently offline  Andy Burns
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Scott Lurndal wrote:

> Huge writes:
>
>> Halogens don't take well to being dimmed,
>
> Are you sure?

I think the theory is that when dimmed the bulb may be cool enough that
the halogens condense onto the glass and blacken it; in practice I've
never had a problem from dimming them.
Re: Office jobs eroding [message #390024 is a reply to message #390018] Mon, 06 January 2020 11:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
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On 2020-01-06, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:

> Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> writes:
>
>> On Sun, 05 Jan 2020 11:36:42 -0500, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Personally, I buy re-usable shopping bags.
>>
>> That doesn't stop the accumulation of plastic bags unless you make a
>> real pest of yourself.
>>
>> Well, not even then.
>
> Okay, not clear to me how being a pest has any bearing
> on the plastic bag outcome?

Sometimes that's what it takes to stop a cashier from loading one
before you can supply your own.

> I just got one of my shopping bags in my junk mail.

We just got given a couple by the city in comemmoration of the
new rec centre. They look like they'll last a while.

> They last pretty long, I've had a few of them for multiple years.

We have a big one we picked up on a trip to Bonaire in 2009.
It carries a _lot_ of stuff, and shows very little sign of wear.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.
Re: Office jobs eroding [message #390025 is a reply to message #390019] Mon, 06 January 2020 11:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
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On 2020-01-06, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:

> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>
>> On 2020-01-06, Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 05 Jan 2020 11:36:42 -0500, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Personally, I buy re-usable shopping bags.
>>>
>>> That doesn't stop the accumulation of plastic bags unless you make a
>>> real pest of yourself.
>>>
>>> Well, not even then.
>>
>> You have to be fast. Before the casher pulls out a plastic bag, drop
>> your re-usable bag (or backpack, if you've been ultra-eco-friendly
>> and ridden there on your bicycle) in front of her, and tell her to
>> put everything right into your bag.
>
> Still not getting the pest part.
>
> I haven't used a cashier since they started self checkout.

Ugh. There's no way I'll ever put up with one of those machines
nattering at me. Besides, I'd rather give a job to a real person.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.
Re: Office jobs eroding [message #390026 is a reply to message #390025] Mon, 06 January 2020 12:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dan Espen is currently offline  Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
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Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:

> On 2020-01-06, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>>
>>> On 2020-01-06, Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 05 Jan 2020 11:36:42 -0500, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > Personally, I buy re-usable shopping bags.
>>>>
>>>> That doesn't stop the accumulation of plastic bags unless you make a
>>>> real pest of yourself.
>>>>
>>>> Well, not even then.
>>>
>>> You have to be fast. Before the casher pulls out a plastic bag, drop
>>> your re-usable bag (or backpack, if you've been ultra-eco-friendly
>>> and ridden there on your bicycle) in front of her, and tell her to
>>> put everything right into your bag.
>>
>> Still not getting the pest part.
>>
>> I haven't used a cashier since they started self checkout.
>
> Ugh. There's no way I'll ever put up with one of those machines
> nattering at me. Besides, I'd rather give a job to a real person.

Last few times I shopped, there was a waiting line to use the self
checkout stations. I don't know if all the cashier lines were busy or
not, I still waited.

Some people prefer that their nattering come from machines where you can
just ignore it.

I guess I just didn't get the pest part.
Back when I used cashiers, I'd just put my bags as the first thing
on the belt for the cashier.

--
Dan Espen
Re: Office jobs eroding [message #390027 is a reply to message #389691] Mon, 06 January 2020 12:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: JimP

On 6 Jan 2020 11:13:15 GMT, Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
> On 2020-01-06, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
>> Huge wrote:
>>
>>> So not only do we have to replace the fittings, but the dimmers as
>>> well. Am I the only one that smells a rat?
>>
>> Presumably you don't have all your lights on dimmers, just a couple of
>> rooms? Hardly a big expense. Alternatively have a main, and one or
>> more extra lights in each room and switch them as appropriate ...
>>
>> I did change to CFLs (and halogens for dimmable rooms)
>
> Halogens don't take well to being dimmed, and have been largely
> banned in the EU anyway.
>
> https://www.which.co.uk/news/2018/08/eu-halogen-light-bulb-b an-everything-you-need-to-know/
>
>> but they weren't
>> great so now I have LEDs everywhere except some fluorescent tubes in
>> garage/shed and the old CFLs relegated to the loft.

Which halogens ? They used to be used in stage theaters, probably
still are, to light up the stage.

--
Jim
Re: Office jobs eroding [message #390028 is a reply to message #389691] Mon, 06 January 2020 12:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
scott is currently offline  scott
Messages: 4237
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Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> writes:
> On 2020-01-06, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>> Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> writes:
>>> On 2020-01-06, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
>>>> Huge wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > So not only do we have to replace the fittings, but the dimmers as
>>>> > well. Am I the only one that smells a rat?
>>>>
>>>> Presumably you don't have all your lights on dimmers, just a couple of
>>>> rooms? Hardly a big expense. Alternatively have a main, and one or
>>>> more extra lights in each room and switch them as appropriate ...
>>>>
>>>> I did change to CFLs (and halogens for dimmable rooms)
>>>
>>> Halogens don't take well to being dimmed,
>>
>> Are you sure? In my theatrical lighting days, all the lamps were
>> halogen filled with tungsten filaments. 500w to 3000w per each. Don't
>> touch the glass with bare fingers, or the bulbs will fail prematurely
>> due to the oil from your fingers creating a hotspot on the outer
>> envelope.
>>
>> They dimmed quite well.
>
> It's explained here;
>
> https://www.topbulb.com/blog/dimming-alters-halogen-cycle/

Well, if such an effect exists, it certainly didn't cause any
issues theatrically; we generally only relamped when the
lamp failed - when dimming dozens of lamps on a circuit, a small decrease in the available
light didn't really matter.
Re: Office jobs eroding [message #390029 is a reply to message #390027] Mon, 06 January 2020 13:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andy Burns is currently offline  Andy Burns
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> Which halogens ? They used to be used in stage theaters, probably
> still are, to light up the stage.

Just a couple of about 5" globe ones (think they were an opal globe with
the quartz halogen capsule inside, as that style suited the shades which
used to have similar large incandescent globes)
Re: Office jobs eroding [message #390030 is a reply to message #390027] Mon, 06 January 2020 14:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
scott is currently offline  scott
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Jim Wrote:
>
>> Which halogens ? They used to be used in stage theaters, probably
>> still are, to light up the stage.
>

Modern theatrical lighting is mostly LED.
Re: Office jobs eroding [message #390031 is a reply to message #390027] Mon, 06 January 2020 15:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
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On Mon, 06 Jan 2020 11:43:35 -0600
JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> wrote:

> Which halogens ? They used to be used in stage theaters, probably
> still are, to light up the stage.

They're getting replaced by LEDs for stage use - long life, fast
switching (most stage lighting needs to be faded not switched, LEDs don't
care), any colour you want from RGB mixers with no gels to change. It almost
makes me wish I was still doing stage lighting instead of seeing it done.
Halogens were just coming in last time I ran a lighting rig.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Office jobs eroding [message #390032 is a reply to message #389780] Mon, 06 January 2020 15:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hancock4 is currently offline  hancock4
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On Saturday, January 4, 2020 at 9:07:20 AM UTC-5, Dan Espen wrote:

> 1. CFLs lasted longer than the incandescents they replaced
> and used less power. While they had some minor drawbacks
> they were still a step up. I have CFLs in my driveway lamp.
> The bulbs must be at least 15 years old now. Something I got nowhere
> near with incandescents.

In my opinion, CFLs were lousy. They were expensive and lasted
no longer than incandessents. They broke easily and made a mess.
The light quality was lousy and there was flicker. They were
slow to get up to full brightness.

Lastly, the power saved wasn't all that great.

I support conservation, but the tree-huggers who pushed CFLs
missed the boat on that one. It was an easy target, easy
to convince kids to run around the house and replace the
old bulbs and make them feel like they were doing something.

The problem is that there are far worse power hogs out there
(as well as waste sources) but no one wants to touch them.
For instance, almost everybody these days drives a big fat
SUV or pickup truck that is exempt from the rules and is
bigger than they really need. That wastes an enormous
amount of fuel. We've allowed (or sabotaged) our
passenger rail systems to decay, discouraging patronage
and moving people over to wasteful automobiles. We have
people flying short distances that should be on a fast train.
Re: Office jobs eroding [message #390033 is a reply to message #389788] Mon, 06 January 2020 15:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hancock4 is currently offline  hancock4
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On Saturday, January 4, 2020 at 2:20:03 PM UTC-5, Dan Espen wrote:

> In the USA, lots of coal is burned to create electricity.
> If the RWNJs had their way, a lot more coal would be burned.
> Burning coal puts lots of bad things in the atmosphere,
> including mercury.

We are air conditioning more places, for instance, schools.
Admittedly, it was miserable sitting there in the heat
in May, June and September. But that takes power.

(And yes, I do like, even need, my a/c. Probably saves lives.)

When I entered the workforce, we used much less power. We
had manual typewriters, adding machines, pencil sharpeners, copying
switchboards, and mimeograph machines. A lot of record keeping
was done on 3x5 cards and file cabinets. All that stuff is
electric now, and that uses power, not only to run the
machines, but provide a/c to take away the generated heat.

I remember when our office got a Xerox machine. Yeah, no
more carbon paper! But they had to run a special 220V power
line for it.

So, like it or not, our world today uses a lot more electricity.
Natural sources like solar, wind, and hydro are simply inadequate
to meet demand. Coal is available and cheap. If we ban coal
altogether, we'll have power shortages or create problems with
other sources.

Here's a question: why can't we use coke as a fuel? Coke
is processed coal with the impurities burned off in a sealed
oven (the chemicals are captured and used for other things).
Yes, it would still cost more, but it would be a lot cleaner.

Another question: How about nuke as a fuel? With nuclear,
we could electrify more railroads and transit. Maybe with
modern technology it would be cheaper to build a nuke plant.
(Whatever happened to "too cheap to meter"?)
Re: Office jobs eroding [message #390034 is a reply to message #389788] Mon, 06 January 2020 16:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hancock4 is currently offline  hancock4
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On Saturday, January 4, 2020 at 2:20:03 PM UTC-5, Dan Espen wrote:

> In the USA, lots of coal is burned to create electricity.
> If the RWNJs had their way, a lot more coal would be burned.
> Burning coal puts lots of bad things in the atmosphere,
> including mercury.

P.S.

In my opinion, thanks to idiotic and selfish policies advanced
by the tree-huggers and free-marketers the U.S. will soon face
terrible power shortages. It already happened in California a
few years ago. I don't think they learned from that, and the
zealots on both sides of the aisle are still working full steam
for their agendas. Us ordinary schlubs are caught in the middle.

Ref. "Kochland : the secret history of Koch Industries and
corporate power in America" by Christopher Leonard.
Re: Office jobs eroding [message #390035 is a reply to message #389940] Mon, 06 January 2020 16:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hancock4 is currently offline  hancock4
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On Saturday, January 4, 2020 at 2:46:24 PM UTC-5, Peter Flass wrote:

> This doesn’t have to happen. Warren Buffett is giving away most of his
> money specifically to avoid this. People like Andrew Carnegie gave away
> lots of money and did a lot of good with it,.

Andrew Carnegie was a real bastard. Only at the end of his life
did he realize how devastating his greed was and give his money
away.

Ref: "Meet you in hell : Andrew Carnegie, Henry Clay Frick,
and the bitter partnership that transformed America" by
Les Standiford.


There has been recent attempts to repaint the oldtime robber
barons as good people who created economic wealth in their
mega corporations. But that isn't true. What those guys
did was raid _existing_ companies that _other_ people built
and force them, through dubious means, to sell out to
them.
Re: Office jobs eroding [message #390036 is a reply to message #389942] Mon, 06 January 2020 16:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hancock4 is currently offline  hancock4
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On Saturday, January 4, 2020 at 2:50:27 PM UTC-5, Peter Flass wrote:

> I think more energy is wasted in transmission than is used productively.
> Until we achieve room-temperature superconductivity we need to put the
> source closer to the end-user. Small neighborhood nukes might be a good
> solution.

It's worse than that. The power grid is grossly overloaded and
at high risk for failure. Electricity needs to be provided upon
demand, in full. No room for delay or error. With climate
change and severe weather conditions (super cold or super warm)
we need more energy than ever, as well as for modern computers
and office needs.

In NYC, they wanted to build local supplemental power plants,
but the tree huggers fought that.

California suffered disastrous power failures years ago
thanks to foolish ideas.
Re: Office jobs eroding [message #390063 is a reply to message #389949] Mon, 06 January 2020 16:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hancock4 is currently offline  hancock4
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On Saturday, January 4, 2020 at 6:41:31 PM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:

> FOr the most part, that's caused by people who don't RTFM. CFL's weren't suitable
> for certain usages (unventilated enclosures, for example) or mounting
> orientations (base up, in some cases); Improperly mounted or enclosed,
> the ballast electronics would overheat and fail prematurely.

But what was an ordinary consumer supposed to do? Standard
incandescents were unavailable. We had to stick the CFL in
the sealed overhead fixture. (How unventilated could it have
been since it had to have air for the hot oldstyle bulb?)
Re: Office jobs eroding [message #390064 is a reply to message #389691] Mon, 06 January 2020 16:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hancock4 is currently offline  hancock4
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On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 2:18:09 AM UTC-5, Dave Garland wrote:

> I don't see why people are so down on CFLs (and presumably
> conventional fluorescents). Of course they're not suitable for every
> application, any idiot can see that. But the "on for hours"
> applications (and in the orientation and with the ventilation they
> were designed for) they work fine, and usually they were cost
> effective otherwise, so long as you didn't need "instant on full
> bright" service. Even the cheap Chinese ones. LEDs are better and
> cheaper now but weren't available at the beginning, and nobody knew
> how long it would be until they were economically effective. Disposal
> is commensurate with conventional fluorescents (i.e. inconvenient).

I bought some traditional fluorescent 'stick lamps' (the kind
you stick over your kitchen sink mounted on the cabinet).
I discovered that while they lasted a long time and were
efficient, they were not replaceable. Turned out the bulb
was unique and not replaceable, so I had to throw out the
whole fixture.

As to LEDs, the jury is still out in my uses for plain
lamp lights.

But in flashlights their service life is horrible. I bought
a punch of what we used to call penlights. Small and compact.
(Though used 3 AAA cells which was awkward). Terrible life
and the entire unit had to be discarded. I still use cheap 25
year old D cell flashlights that still work just fine.
Re: Office jobs eroding [message #390065 is a reply to message #389691] Mon, 06 January 2020 16:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hancock4 is currently offline  hancock4
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On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 2:36:41 AM UTC-5, Dave Garland wrote:

> And vulture capitalists. Unions (i.e. workers) have lost a lot of
> power over the last 50 years.

Vulture capitalists have done tremendous damage to the U.S.
Unbelievable carnage and destruction.

Ref, "The Glass House the 1% economy and the shattering of
the all-American town by Brian Alexander.


As to unions, it's a mixed bag. Basic industrial unions
(steel, autos), got too powerful after 1960. They demanded
and received economically unsustainable wages and benefits
and suffocating work rules. This put strains on ordinary
consumers with expensive crappy cars and inflation and
made overseas goods desirable.

On the other hand, once unions lost power, corporations
exploited it and turned workers into serfs.
Re: Office jobs eroding [message #390066 is a reply to message #389960] Mon, 06 January 2020 16:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hancock4 is currently offline  hancock4
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On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 3:00:07 AM UTC-5, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> Agreed that is the important question, and as far as I can make out
> the poorest of the poor have been getting steadily better off for a long
> time.

No.
Re: plastic bags, was: Office jobs eroding [message #390067 is a reply to message #390021] Mon, 06 January 2020 16:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
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danny burstein <dannyb@panix.com> wrote:
> (apologies for prior, empty, post. I hit the send keys too early)
>
> In
> <2023267094.600013116.732632.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org> Peter Flass
> <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>
> [snippeth]
>
>> We use plastic grocery bags as wastebasket liners, which at least saves us
>> from buying bags specifically for the wastebaskets.
>
> They also come in handy for people with dogs who lived in civilized
> areas that wish to "scoop the poop".
>
>

Done that too, occasionally, though I usually buy bags for this.

--
Pete
Re: Office jobs eroding [message #390068 is a reply to message #390024] Mon, 06 January 2020 16:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
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Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> On 2020-01-06, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> writes:
>>
>>> On Sun, 05 Jan 2020 11:36:42 -0500, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Personally, I buy re-usable shopping bags.
>>>
>>> That doesn't stop the accumulation of plastic bags unless you make a
>>> real pest of yourself.
>>>
>>> Well, not even then.
>>
>> Okay, not clear to me how being a pest has any bearing
>> on the plastic bag outcome?
>
> Sometimes that's what it takes to stop a cashier from loading one
> before you can supply your own.
>
>> I just got one of my shopping bags in my junk mail.
>
> We just got given a couple by the city in comemmoration of the
> new rec centre. They look like they'll last a while.
>
>> They last pretty long, I've had a few of them for multiple years.
>
> We have a big one we picked up on a trip to Bonaire in 2009.
> It carries a _lot_ of stuff, and shows very little sign of wear.
>

I recently read an article that said reusable bags are no more “green” than
disposables, due to manufacturing processes and disposal costs when they
finally *do* wear out.

--
Pete
Re: Office jobs eroding [message #390069 is a reply to message #390025] Mon, 06 January 2020 16:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
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Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> On 2020-01-06, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>>
>>> On 2020-01-06, Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 05 Jan 2020 11:36:42 -0500, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > Personally, I buy re-usable shopping bags.
>>>>
>>>> That doesn't stop the accumulation of plastic bags unless you make a
>>>> real pest of yourself.
>>>>
>>>> Well, not even then.
>>>
>>> You have to be fast. Before the casher pulls out a plastic bag, drop
>>> your re-usable bag (or backpack, if you've been ultra-eco-friendly
>>> and ridden there on your bicycle) in front of her, and tell her to
>>> put everything right into your bag.
>>
>> Still not getting the pest part.
>>
>> I haven't used a cashier since they started self checkout.
>
> Ugh. There's no way I'll ever put up with one of those machines
> nattering at me. Besides, I'd rather give a job to a real person.
>

I usually get into a rather one-sided argument with the self-checkout.

--
Pete
Re: Office jobs eroding [message #390071 is a reply to message #390036] Mon, 06 January 2020 16:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
scott is currently offline  scott
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hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
> On Saturday, January 4, 2020 at 2:50:27 PM UTC-5, Peter Flass wrote:

>
> California suffered disastrous power failures years ago
> thanks to foolish ideas.

California has _NEVER_ suffered disasterous power failures. Ever.

There were brownouts caused by market manipulations, not by any
shortage of energy generation capability. Note that the 'brownouts'
did not effect the entire bay area (only some 96k customers out of
more than 2 million). They certainly cannot be categorized as
"disasterous".

Please learn about it before writing about it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_electricity_crisis

"California had an installed generating capacity of 45 GW. At
the time of the blackouts, demand was 28 GW. A demand-supply gap
was created by energy companies, mainly Enron, to create an artificial shortage."
Re: Office jobs eroding [message #390072 is a reply to message #390063] Mon, 06 January 2020 16:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
scott is currently offline  scott
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hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
> On Saturday, January 4, 2020 at 6:41:31 PM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>
>> FOr the most part, that's caused by people who don't RTFM. CFL's weren't suitable
>> for certain usages (unventilated enclosures, for example) or mounting
>> orientations (base up, in some cases); Improperly mounted or enclosed,
>> the ballast electronics would overheat and fail prematurely.
>
> But what was an ordinary consumer supposed to do? Standard
> incandescents were unavailable. We had to stick the CFL in
> the sealed overhead fixture. (How unventilated could it have
> been since it had to have air for the hot oldstyle bulb?)

Incandescent bulbs can stand much higher temperatures
without failing than the solid state electronics used in the CFL ballast, of course.

The ordinary consumer could have troubled themselves to read
the packaging when selecting a CFL to ensure that it was suitable
for the desired purpose.
Re: Office jobs eroding [message #390073 is a reply to message #390064] Mon, 06 January 2020 16:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
scott is currently offline  scott
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hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:

> As to LEDs, the jury is still out in my uses for plain
> lamp lights.
>
> But in flashlights their service life is horrible. I bought
> a punch of what we used to call penlights. Small and compact.
> (Though used 3 AAA cells which was awkward). Terrible life
> and the entire unit had to be discarded.

You know, you get what you pay for. Buy something that wasn't
designed to last a week and you'll be much happier. I have
LED flashlights that work extremely well; I didn't get them
at harbor freight, but rather paid for higher quality.
Re: Office jobs eroding [message #390074 is a reply to message #390068] Mon, 06 January 2020 16:48 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
scott is currently offline  scott
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Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2020-01-06, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:

>>
>> We have a big one we picked up on a trip to Bonaire in 2009.
>> It carries a _lot_ of stuff, and shows very little sign of wear.
>>
>
> I recently read an article that said reusable bags are no more “green” than
> disposables, due to manufacturing processes and disposal costs when they
> finally *do* wear out.

Use paper bags. I've been using the same four for a couple years now; a bit of
care (don't overload them) and they'll last quite some time. And they only cost
a dime (although most of the ones I have came from the weekly Noah's Bagel deliveries
to work). And they can be composted at end-of-life. And they're made from
renewable materials.
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