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Sider D4 question on Apple 2. [message #383840] Sat, 11 May 2019 20:20 Go to next message
mrbrad is currently offline  mrbrad
Messages: 85
Registered: January 2013
Karma: 0
Member
A quick question on the Sider D4 SCSI hard drive by Xebec. I am
getting one w/o a card and cable. But the .pdf manual link below says
that the "Sider D4 is a stand alone and not able to daisy chain with
other Sider's unit. It can be daisy chained with the tape backup unit"

Thus my question is can I use a 'standard' Xebec or Sider Card? If so is
there a firmware version that is needed for above? Or does the D4 have
its 'own' card and thus I'm screwed till one of those shows up? Also
while I'm at it. What size is a D4 40mb? Thanks.

I have a dozen of these Siders but NO D4 (i even have the old tape
cassette xebec unit). So anyway am unclear.

I assume at worst, this D4 can be used as regular SCSI with
an Apple II SCSI card or a Ramfast SCSI?

Here is the Sider D4 Link below:

Sider D4 Manual Link

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/863673/First-Class-Periphe rals-Sider-D4.html?page=15&fbclid=IwAR2IlBxZuYXfs0vU4_gB mxKBwsBoS85LKJladotn4JbQxCIXJ8Oejh1hccc#manual

Thanks.

Brad
Re: Sider D4 question on Apple 2. [message #383860 is a reply to message #383840] Sun, 12 May 2019 15:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: James Davis

On Saturday, May 11, 2019 at 5:20:12 PM UTC-7, mrbrad wrote:
> A quick question on the Sider D4 SCSI hard drive by Xebec. I am
> getting one w/o a card and cable. But the .pdf manual link below says
> that the "Sider D4 is a stand alone and not able to daisy chain with
> other Sider's unit. It can be daisy chained with the tape backup unit"
>
> Thus my question is can I use a 'standard' Xebec or Sider Card? If so is
> there a firmware version that is needed for above? Or does the D4 have
> its 'own' card and thus I'm screwed till one of those shows up? Also
> while I'm at it. What size is a D4 40mb? Thanks.
>
> I have a dozen of these Siders but NO D4 (i even have the old tape
> cassette xebec unit). So anyway am unclear.
>
> I assume at worst, this D4 can be used as regular SCSI with
> an Apple II SCSI card or a Ramfast SCSI?
>
> Here is the Sider D4 Link below:
>
> Sider D4 Manual Link
>
> https://www.manualslib.com/manual/863673/First-Class-Periphe rals-Sider-D4..html?page=15&fbclid=IwAR2IlBxZuYXfs0vU4_g BmxKBwsBoS85LKJladotn4JbQxCIXJ8Oejh1hccc#manual
>
> Thanks.
>
> Brad

My Sider D4 & T6 are SASI (pre-SCSI 1.0) and, according to my research, had the data lines with inverted voltage polarity from the SCSI standard. That was the only hardware difference I ever found between SASI and SCSI. I always thought that if you ran the data line through an inverter chip, it would be the same as SCSI. This is based on the Sider (Apple II) interface card that came with my FCP Sider system. It came with a floppy or two of software (Sider drivers & utilities).
Re: Sider D4 question on Apple 2. [message #383866 is a reply to message #383860] Sun, 12 May 2019 17:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mrbrad is currently offline  mrbrad
Messages: 85
Registered: January 2013
Karma: 0
Member
On 5/12/2019 2:52 PM, James Davis wrote:
> On Saturday, May 11, 2019 at 5:20:12 PM UTC-7, mrbrad wrote:
>> A quick question on the Sider D4 SCSI hard drive by Xebec. I am
>> getting one w/o a card and cable. But the .pdf manual link below says
>> that the "Sider D4 is a stand alone and not able to daisy chain with
>> other Sider's unit. It can be daisy chained with the tape backup unit"
>>
>> Thus my question is can I use a 'standard' Xebec or Sider Card? If so is
>> there a firmware version that is needed for above? Or does the D4 have
>> its 'own' card and thus I'm screwed till one of those shows up? Also
>> while I'm at it. What size is a D4 40mb? Thanks.
>>
>> I have a dozen of these Siders but NO D4 (i even have the old tape
>> cassette xebec unit). So anyway am unclear.
>>
>> I assume at worst, this D4 can be used as regular SCSI with
>> an Apple II SCSI card or a Ramfast SCSI?
>>
>> Here is the Sider D4 Link below:
>>
>> Sider D4 Manual Link
>>
>> https://www.manualslib.com/manual/863673/First-Class-Periphe rals-Sider-D4.html?page=15&fbclid=IwAR2IlBxZuYXfs0vU4_gB mxKBwsBoS85LKJladotn4JbQxCIXJ8Oejh1hccc#manual
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Brad
>
> My Sider D4 & T6 are SASI (pre-SCSI 1.0) and, according to my research, had the data lines with inverted voltage polarity from the SCSI standard. That was the only hardware difference I ever found between SASI and SCSI. I always thought that if you ran the data line through an inverter chip, it would be the same as SCSI. This is based on the Sider (Apple II) interface card that came with my FCP Sider system. It came with a floppy or two of software (Sider drivers & utilities).
>


Yeah, that is the rub, the xebec card...does the D4 work with all the
xebec/first class peripherals/sider cards and/or is the D4 (the last
newest they made) and that xebec/first class peripherals/sider card is
different or has an eprom upgrade I need to flash.

I assume the xebec card and cable you got with yours came with the unit.

I am suspect that a regular sider/xebec card would work because they
daisy chain..and they state this D4 does not. (Unless it works fine at
the END of a SASI/SCSI xebec card chain?)

So anyway, that is my current befuddlement. I would 'guess' there is a
'High" likelihood it would work with a Ramfast Card...but that is just a
guess.

Can a guy 'fry' a xebec/apple scsi or whatever card trying this Sider D4
on such or is as I suspect from the 'one and done' statement of no daisy
chaining and not standard scsi it would just make 'magic blue smoke' and
die.

Ah well, if it was not fun to figure out if 40 year old apple ][
equipment....can be made to work or not w/o catastrophic
failure..where's the fun in that?

Maybe, someplace I have a D4 about? Maybe.....(good to have goals)

anyway, if someone has a D4 and a regular sider/xebec 10-20 mb and the
cards are the same...that would be a start...I'd suspect it would be
just a ROM flash of a D4 eprom to get around this 'what to use
xebec/sider card...I'm dubious of

later

brad
Re: Sider D4 question on Apple 2. [message #383876 is a reply to message #383860] Mon, 13 May 2019 04:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: James Davis

On Sunday, May 12, 2019 at 12:52:03 PM UTC-7, James Davis wrote:
> On Saturday, May 11, 2019 at 5:20:12 PM UTC-7, mrbrad wrote:
>> A quick question on the Sider D4 SCSI hard drive by Xebec. I am
>> getting one w/o a card and cable. But the .pdf manual link below says
>> that the "Sider D4 is a stand alone and not able to daisy chain with
>> other Sider's unit. It can be daisy chained with the tape backup unit"
>>
>> Thus my question is can I use a 'standard' Xebec or Sider Card? If so is
>> there a firmware version that is needed for above? Or does the D4 have
>> its 'own' card and thus I'm screwed till one of those shows up? Also
>> while I'm at it. What size is a D4 40mb? Thanks.
>>
>> I have a dozen of these Siders but NO D4 (i even have the old tape
>> cassette xebec unit). So anyway am unclear.
>>
>> I assume at worst, this D4 can be used as regular SCSI with
>> an Apple II SCSI card or a Ramfast SCSI?
>>
>> Here is the Sider D4 Link below:
>>
>> Sider D4 Manual Link
>>
>> https://www.manualslib.com/manual/863673/First-Class-Periphe rals-Sider-D4.html?page=15&fbclid=IwAR2IlBxZuYXfs0vU4_gB mxKBwsBoS85LKJladotn4JbQxCIXJ8Oejh1hccc#manual
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Brad
>
> My Sider D4 & T6 are SASI (pre-SCSI 1.0) and, according to my research, had the data lines with inverted voltage polarity from the SCSI standard. That was the only hardware difference I ever found between SASI and SCSI. I always thought that if you ran the data line through an inverter chip, it would be the same as SCSI. This is based on the Sider (Apple II) interface card that came with my FCP Sider system. It came with a floppy or two of software (Sider drivers & utilities).

Actually, it wasn't the data lines that were inverted, it was the addressing lines, IIRC.

Also, IIRC, I uploaded a zip-file to Asimov a year or two ago containing the following files:

============================================================ ==========
FCP Sider SASI+SCSI Extra Information
(Disk Drive Interfacing Information)
============================================================ ==========
Adding SCSI to the SB180 Computer by Steve Ciarcia,
BYTE Magazine, May & June 1986, Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar:
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
BYTE 1986-5, CC, Pg.85.jpg -- Title Page (teaser)
BYTE 1986-5, CC, Pg.92.jpg -- Comm180 Schematic, Part 1
BYTE 1986-5, CC, Pg.93.jpg -- Comm180 Schematic, Part 2
BYTE 1986-6, CC, Pg.112.jpg -- SCSI Device ID Bits on Data Bus
============================================================ ==========
The SCSI Bus by L. Bret Glass,
BYTE Magazine, February & March 1986, Hands On Under The Hood:
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
BYTE 1990-2, UH, Pg.267.jpg -- Title Page (teaser)
BYTE 1990-2, UH, Pg.272.jpg -- The SCSI Signals
BYTE 1990-3, UH, Pg.294.jpg -- Apple SCSI: Not Quite Standard
============================================================ ==========
CV Tech Information:
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
Faster Than A Speeding ..., RamFast SCSI,
inCider Magazine, November 1990, Editor's Choice:
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
inCider 1990-11, EC, Pg.96.jpg -- Editor's Significant Apple II Add-In
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
CV Tech IDC-50 to DB-25 SCSI Bus Pinout.jpg -- CVT Board Connector
============================================================ ==========
FCP Sider SASI+SCSI Information:
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
FCP Sider IDC-50 to DB-25 SASI Bus Cable.jpg -- Wiring Diagram
FCP Sider IDC-50 to DB-25 SASI Bus Pinout.jpg -- Sider HA Connections
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
FCP Sider SASI Host Adapter Drawing.jpg -- HA Chip Layout
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
FCP Sider SASI Host Adapter Schematic (L).jpg -- Left half of it
FCP Sider SASI Host Adapter Schematic (M).jpg -- Middle half of it
FCP Sider SASI Host Adapter Schematic (R).jpg -- Right half of it
============================================================ ==========
MacIntosh Cent.50 to DB-25 SCSI Bus Pinout.jpg -- Centronics to DB-25
============================================================ ==========
Sider Host Adapter's XEBEC.103816.A (2732-EPROM) 6502 Assembly Listing
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
XEBEC.103816.A (2732-EPROM) Assembly, Pg.1.jpg -- Start of printout
XEBEC.103816.A (2732-EPROM) Assembly, Pg.2.jpg -- .
XEBEC.103816.A (2732-EPROM) Assembly, Pg.3.jpg -- .
XEBEC.103816.A (2732-EPROM) Assembly, Pg.4.jpg -- .
XEBEC.103816.A (2732-EPROM) Assembly, Pg.5.jpg -- .
XEBEC.103816.A (2732-EPROM) Assembly, Pg.6.jpg -- End of printout
============================================================ ==========
Apple II, II+, IIc, IIe, Disk II, UniDisk, & MacIntosh, Drive(s) Info:
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
z. Apple II,+,e Disk II to Apple IIc Drive Adapter 1.jpg
z. Apple II,+,e Disk II to Apple IIc Drive Adapter 2.jpg
z. Apple II,+,e Disk II to MacIntosh Drive Adapter.jpg
z. Apple IIe UniDisk Interface Connector Pinouts.jpg
============================================================ ==========

Search their index for the "FCP Sider SASI+SCSI Extra Information" zip-file, or for "First Class Peripherals Sider", or just for "Sider".

I also have this list:

============================================================ ==========
First Class Peripherals (FCP) Sider (HD+TD)
{FTP Sources, HTTP Sources, & Information}
============================================================ ==========
HD: Hard Disk/Drive
TD: Tape Drive - [Uses a special (FCP-Sider) cassette tape cartridge.]
============================================================ ==========


============================================================ ==========
First Class Peripherals (FCP) Sider (HD+TD) {FTP Sources}
============================================================ ==========
ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/documentation/hardware/ storage/disks/
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/apple3/system/dr ivers/
============================================================ ==========


============================================================ ==========
First Class Peripherals (FCP) Sider (HD+TD) {HTTP Sources}
============================================================ ==========
Everything2.com Website <http://everything2.com/title/The+Sider>
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
Apple2Online.com Website <http://www.apple2online.com/web_documents>
============================================================ ==========


============================================================ ==========
ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/documentation/hardware/ storage/disks/
http://www.apple2online.com/web_documents/
============================================================ ==========
[First Class Peripherals (FCP)] Sider D4 Manual
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/documentation/hardware/ storage/disks/Sider D4 Manual.pdf
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
http://www.apple2online.com/web_documents/first_class_periph erals_sider_d4_manual.pdf
============================================================ ==========
[First Class Peripherals (FCP)] Sider User's Manual
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/documentation/hardware/ storage/disks/Sider User's Manual.pdf
============================================================ ==========
[First Class Peripherals (FCP)] Sider and B-Sider Manual (PN-106109-01-Rev-C)
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/documentation/hardware/ storage/disks/sider_and_bsider_manual_pn-106109-01-rev-C.pdf
============================================================ ==========
[First Class Peripherals (FCP)] B-Sider Tape Backup User Guide [and/or]
[First Class Peripherals (FCP)] B-Sider Streaming Tape Subsystem Users Guide
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/documentation/hardware/ storage/disks/B-Sider Tape Backup User Guide.pdf
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
http://www.apple2online.com/web_documents/B-Sider Tape Backup User Guide.pdf
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
http://www.apple2online.com/web_documents/B-Sider%20Tape%20B ackup%20User%20Guide.pdf
============================================================ ==========
[First Class Peripherals (FCP)] Sider GSOS
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/documentation/hardware/ storage/disks/sider_gsos.pdf
============================================================ ==========
[First Class Peripherals (FCP)] Siderware Rev. D Tech-Tips
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/documentation/hardware/ storage/disks/SiderWare Rev. D Tech-Tips.pdf
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
http://www.apple2online.com/web_documents/first_class_periph erals_siderware_rev._d_tech-tips.pdf
============================================================ ==========


============================================================ ==========
ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/
============================================================ ==========
[First Class Peripherals (FCP)] Sider DOS.3.3.Utils (ShrinkIt Disk-Image)
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/DOS.3.3.Utils.sdk (=4)
============================================================ ==========
[First Class Peripherals (FCP)] Sider ATS-Advanced Tech Services (Disk-Image)
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/Sider ATS-Advanced Tech Services.dsk (~~)
============================================================ ==========
[First Class Peripherals (FCP)] Sider Drivers (ShrinkIt Disk-Image)
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/Sider.drvrs.sdk (=1)
============================================================ ==========
[First Class Peripherals (FCP)] Sider Hard-Drive Utilities (ShrinkIt Disk-Image)
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/Sider.HD.Util.sdk (=2)
============================================================ ==========
[First Class Peripherals (FCP)] Sider Installation Utilities (ShrinkIt Disk-Image)
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/Sider.Install.Utils.sdk (=5)
============================================================ ==========
[First Class Peripherals (FCP)] Sider Full Prodos Format Utility (Disk-Image)
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/SIDER_FULL_PRODOS_FORMAT_UTIL.dsk (~~)
============================================================ ==========
[First Class Peripherals (FCP)] Sider Drivers (ShrinkIt Disk-Image) Info
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/SiderDrvrs.sdk.txt (=1)
============================================================ ==========
[First Class Peripherals (FCP)] Sider Low-Level (Disk-Image)
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/SiderLL.dsk (=3)
============================================================ ==========
Siderware Hard Drive Installer (2GS Disk-Image)
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/Siderware Hard Drive Installer.2mg (=1)
============================================================ ==========
Siderware Hard Drive Installer (Disk-Image)
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/siderware hard drive installer.po (=1)
============================================================ ==========
(Disk-Image)
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/siderware utilities disk 1.po (=2)
============================================================ ==========
Siderware Utilities 2 (Disk-Image)
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/siderware utilities disk 2.po (=3)
============================================================ ==========
Siderware Backup/Restore Utility (Disk-Image)
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/SIDERWARE_BACKUP_RESTORE_UTIL.dsk
============================================================ ==========
Siderware Installation Utilities (Disk-Image)
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/SIDERWARE_INSTALLATION_UTILS.dsk (=5)
============================================================ ==========
Siderware Support Utilities for CPM (Disk-Image)
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/SIDERWARE_SUPPORT_UTILS_FOR_CPM.dsk
============================================================ ==========
Siderware Support Utilities for DOS 3.3 (Disk-Image)
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/SIDERWARE_SUPPORT_UTILS_FOR_DOS3.3.dsk (=4)
============================================================ ==========
Siderware Support Utilities for Pascal (Disk-Image)
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/SIDERWARE_SUPPORT_UTILS_FOR_PASCAL.dsk
============================================================ ==========
Siderware Support Utilities for ProDOS (Disk-Image)
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/SIDERWARE_SUPPORT_UTILS_FOR_PRODOS.dsk
============================================================ ==========


============================================================ ==========
ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/apple3/system/dr ivers/
============================================================ ==========
On-Three Sider Driver (Disk-Image); /SIDER.UNI Disk for the Apple III.
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/apple3/system/dr ivers/on-three-sider-driver.dsk
============================================================ ==========


============================================================ ==========
[First Class Peripherals (FCP)] Sider (HD+TD) {Information}
============================================================ ==========
DOS.3.3.Utils.sdk = DOS 3.3 Volume 254, PO, (=4)
on-three-sider-driver.dsk = ProDOS, SIDER.UNI, DO; (Apple III)
Sider ATS-Advanced Tech Services.dsk = ProDOS, FORMAT, DO, (~~)
Sider.drvrs.sdk = ProDOS, SIDER.DRIVERS, PO, (=1)
Sider.HD.Util.sdk = ProDOS, SIDER, PO, (=2)
Sider.Install.Utils.sdk = DOS 3.3 Volume 254, PO, (=5)
SIDER_FULL_PRODOS_FORMAT_UTIL.dsk = ProDOS, FORMAT, DO, (~~)
SiderDrvrs.sdk.txt = These are original Sider hard drive installer disks ! (=1)
SiderLL.dsk = ProDOS, D, PO, (=3)
Siderware Hard Drive Installer.2mg = ProDOS, SIDER.DRIVERS, PO, (=1)
siderware hard drive installer.po = ProDOS, SIDER.DRIVERS, PO, (=1)
siderware utilities disk 1.po = ProDOS, SIDER, PO, (=2)
siderware utilities disk 2.po = ProDOS, D, PO, (=3)
SIDERWARE_BACKUP_RESTORE_UTIL.dsk = Pascal, SIDER, DO
SIDERWARE_INSTALLATION_UTILS.dsk = DOS 3.3 Volume 254, DO, (=5)
SIDERWARE_SUPPORT_UTILS_FOR_CPM.dsk = CPM, DO
SIDERWARE_SUPPORT_UTILS_FOR_DOS3.3.dsk = DOS 3.3 Volume 254, DO, (=4)
SIDERWARE_SUPPORT_UTILS_FOR_PASCAL.dsk = Pascal, FCP, DO
SIDERWARE_SUPPORT_UTILS_FOR_PRODOS.dsk = ProDOS, SIDER, DO, (=2)
============================================================ ==========
Notes: (Identified in the order of their discovery.)
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
(~~): Disk images that are similar, but not identical!
Sider ATS-Advanced Tech Services.dsk = ProDOS, FORMAT, DO, (~~)
SIDER_FULL_PRODOS_FORMAT_UTIL.dsk = ProDOS, FORMAT, DO, (~~)
------------------------------------------------------------ ----
(==): Files on these disk images that are identical to their correspondents:
FORMAT.SYSTEM SYS $2000 16-Nov-87 19:00 ProDOS 16710
PARK.HEADS SYS $0000 18-Nov-87 23:37 ProDOS 348
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
(=1): All of these disk-images are images of the original Sider hard drive installer disk!
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
(=1): All of the files on these disk images are identical to their correspondents:
Sider.drvrs.sdk = ProDOS, SIDER.DRIVERS, PO, (=1)
Siderware Hard Drive Installer.2mg = ProDOS, SIDER.DRIVERS, PO, (=1)
siderware hard drive installer.po = ProDOS, SIDER.DRIVERS, PO, (=1)
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
(=2): All of the files on these disk images are identical to their correspondents:
Sider.HD.Util.sdk = ProDOS, SIDER, PO, (=2)
Siderware Utilities Disk 1.po = ProDOS, SIDER, PO, (=2)
SIDERWARE_SUPPORT_UTILS_FOR_PRODOS.dsk = ProDOS, SIDER, DO, (=2)
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
(=3): All of the files on these disk images are identical to their correspondents:
SiderLL.dsk = ProDOS, D, PO, (=3)
Siderware Utilities Disk 2.po = ProDOS, D, PO, (=3)
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
(=4): All of the files on these disk images are identical to their correspondents:
DOS.3.3.Utils.sdk = DOS 3.3 Volume 254, PO, (=4)
SIDERWARE_SUPPORT_UTILS_FOR_DOS3.3.dsk = DOS 3.3 Volume 254, DO, (=4)
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
(=5): All of the files on these disk images are identical to their correspondents:
Sider.Install.Utils.sdk = DOS 3.3 Volume 254, PO, (=5)
SIDERWARE_INSTALLATION_UTILS.dsk = DOS 3.3 Volume 254, DO, (=5)
============================================================ ==========


============================================================ ==========
[First Class Peripherals (FCP)] Sider Drivers (ShrinkIt Disk-Image) Information:
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
Source: ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/SiderDrvrs.sdk.txt (=1)
============================================================ ==========
Original Content:
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
This is the original Sider hard drive installer disk. It's a selfbooting GS/OS
disk that has all of the Sider hard drive drivers as listed below:

SIDER.40
SIDER.90
SIDER.MULTI.OS
SIDER.PRO.10H
SIDER.PRO.20H
SIDER.PRO.D2
SIDER.PRO.NEC40

It also contains the Unidisk 3.5 driver. Other utilities on the disk include
Adv.Disk.Util and Backup2.system.
============================================================ ==========

Hoping all this will be useful to you,

James Davis
Re: Sider D4 question on Apple 2. [message #383883 is a reply to message #383876] Mon, 13 May 2019 12:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mrbrad is currently offline  mrbrad
Messages: 85
Registered: January 2013
Karma: 0
Member
Thanks. Will probably just wait and see if I have an actual D4 about and
compare cards (xebec/sider) with the regular sider cards...see if any
difference. That is my main concern that previous 'daisy chain' versions
of the xebec/sider/first class peripheals cards will not work on a D4 at
all due to the daisy chain options on those and NOT on the Sider D4
according to the manual.

Though again, you'd think it could still work with other siders as the
last in the xebec/sider chain..but if so you'd think the manual would
state that.

thanks for the links will archive them and/look over

brad


On 5/13/2019 3:27 AM, James Davis wrote:
> On Sunday, May 12, 2019 at 12:52:03 PM UTC-7, James Davis wrote:
>> On Saturday, May 11, 2019 at 5:20:12 PM UTC-7, mrbrad wrote:
>>> A quick question on the Sider D4 SCSI hard drive by Xebec. I am
>>> getting one w/o a card and cable. But the .pdf manual link below says
>>> that the "Sider D4 is a stand alone and not able to daisy chain with
>>> other Sider's unit. It can be daisy chained with the tape backup unit"
>>>
>>> Thus my question is can I use a 'standard' Xebec or Sider Card? If so is
>>> there a firmware version that is needed for above? Or does the D4 have
>>> its 'own' card and thus I'm screwed till one of those shows up? Also
>>> while I'm at it. What size is a D4 40mb? Thanks.
>>>
>>> I have a dozen of these Siders but NO D4 (i even have the old tape
>>> cassette xebec unit). So anyway am unclear.
>>>
>>> I assume at worst, this D4 can be used as regular SCSI with
>>> an Apple II SCSI card or a Ramfast SCSI?
>>>
>>> Here is the Sider D4 Link below:
>>>
>>> Sider D4 Manual Link
>>>
>>> https://www.manualslib.com/manual/863673/First-Class-Periphe rals-Sider-D4.html?page=15&fbclid=IwAR2IlBxZuYXfs0vU4_gB mxKBwsBoS85LKJladotn4JbQxCIXJ8Oejh1hccc#manual
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> Brad
>>
>> My Sider D4 & T6 are SASI (pre-SCSI 1.0) and, according to my research, had the data lines with inverted voltage polarity from the SCSI standard. That was the only hardware difference I ever found between SASI and SCSI. I always thought that if you ran the data line through an inverter chip, it would be the same as SCSI. This is based on the Sider (Apple II) interface card that came with my FCP Sider system. It came with a floppy or two of software (Sider drivers & utilities).
>
> Actually, it wasn't the data lines that were inverted, it was the addressing lines, IIRC.
>
> Also, IIRC, I uploaded a zip-file to Asimov a year or two ago containing the following files:
>
> ============================================================ ==========
> FCP Sider SASI+SCSI Extra Information
> (Disk Drive Interfacing Information)
> ============================================================ ==========
> Adding SCSI to the SB180 Computer by Steve Ciarcia,
> BYTE Magazine, May & June 1986, Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar:
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> BYTE 1986-5, CC, Pg.85.jpg -- Title Page (teaser)
> BYTE 1986-5, CC, Pg.92.jpg -- Comm180 Schematic, Part 1
> BYTE 1986-5, CC, Pg.93.jpg -- Comm180 Schematic, Part 2
> BYTE 1986-6, CC, Pg.112.jpg -- SCSI Device ID Bits on Data Bus
> ============================================================ ==========
> The SCSI Bus by L. Bret Glass,
> BYTE Magazine, February & March 1986, Hands On Under The Hood:
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> BYTE 1990-2, UH, Pg.267.jpg -- Title Page (teaser)
> BYTE 1990-2, UH, Pg.272.jpg -- The SCSI Signals
> BYTE 1990-3, UH, Pg.294.jpg -- Apple SCSI: Not Quite Standard
> ============================================================ ==========
> CV Tech Information:
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> Faster Than A Speeding ..., RamFast SCSI,
> inCider Magazine, November 1990, Editor's Choice:
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> inCider 1990-11, EC, Pg.96.jpg -- Editor's Significant Apple II Add-In
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> CV Tech IDC-50 to DB-25 SCSI Bus Pinout.jpg -- CVT Board Connector
> ============================================================ ==========
> FCP Sider SASI+SCSI Information:
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> FCP Sider IDC-50 to DB-25 SASI Bus Cable.jpg -- Wiring Diagram
> FCP Sider IDC-50 to DB-25 SASI Bus Pinout.jpg -- Sider HA Connections
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> FCP Sider SASI Host Adapter Drawing.jpg -- HA Chip Layout
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> FCP Sider SASI Host Adapter Schematic (L).jpg -- Left half of it
> FCP Sider SASI Host Adapter Schematic (M).jpg -- Middle half of it
> FCP Sider SASI Host Adapter Schematic (R).jpg -- Right half of it
> ============================================================ ==========
> MacIntosh Cent.50 to DB-25 SCSI Bus Pinout.jpg -- Centronics to DB-25
> ============================================================ ==========
> Sider Host Adapter's XEBEC.103816.A (2732-EPROM) 6502 Assembly Listing
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> XEBEC.103816.A (2732-EPROM) Assembly, Pg.1.jpg -- Start of printout
> XEBEC.103816.A (2732-EPROM) Assembly, Pg.2.jpg -- .
> XEBEC.103816.A (2732-EPROM) Assembly, Pg.3.jpg -- .
> XEBEC.103816.A (2732-EPROM) Assembly, Pg.4.jpg -- .
> XEBEC.103816.A (2732-EPROM) Assembly, Pg.5.jpg -- .
> XEBEC.103816.A (2732-EPROM) Assembly, Pg.6.jpg -- End of printout
> ============================================================ ==========
> Apple II, II+, IIc, IIe, Disk II, UniDisk, & MacIntosh, Drive(s) Info:
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> z. Apple II,+,e Disk II to Apple IIc Drive Adapter 1.jpg
> z. Apple II,+,e Disk II to Apple IIc Drive Adapter 2.jpg
> z. Apple II,+,e Disk II to MacIntosh Drive Adapter.jpg
> z. Apple IIe UniDisk Interface Connector Pinouts.jpg
> ============================================================ ==========
>
> Search their index for the "FCP Sider SASI+SCSI Extra Information" zip-file, or for "First Class Peripherals Sider", or just for "Sider".
>
> I also have this list:
>
> ============================================================ ==========
> First Class Peripherals (FCP) Sider (HD+TD)
> {FTP Sources, HTTP Sources, & Information}
> ============================================================ ==========
> HD: Hard Disk/Drive
> TD: Tape Drive - [Uses a special (FCP-Sider) cassette tape cartridge.]
> ============================================================ ==========
>
>
> ============================================================ ==========
> First Class Peripherals (FCP) Sider (HD+TD) {FTP Sources}
> ============================================================ ==========
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/documentation/hardware/ storage/disks/
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/apple3/system/dr ivers/
> ============================================================ ==========
>
>
> ============================================================ ==========
> First Class Peripherals (FCP) Sider (HD+TD) {HTTP Sources}
> ============================================================ ==========
> Everything2.com Website <http://everything2.com/title/The+Sider>
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> Apple2Online.com Website <http://www.apple2online.com/web_documents>
> ============================================================ ==========
>
>
> ============================================================ ==========
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/documentation/hardware/ storage/disks/
> http://www.apple2online.com/web_documents/
> ============================================================ ==========
> [First Class Peripherals (FCP)] Sider D4 Manual
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/documentation/hardware/ storage/disks/Sider D4 Manual.pdf
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> http://www.apple2online.com/web_documents/first_class_periph erals_sider_d4_manual.pdf
> ============================================================ ==========
> [First Class Peripherals (FCP)] Sider User's Manual
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/documentation/hardware/ storage/disks/Sider User's Manual.pdf
> ============================================================ ==========
> [First Class Peripherals (FCP)] Sider and B-Sider Manual (PN-106109-01-Rev-C)
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/documentation/hardware/ storage/disks/sider_and_bsider_manual_pn-106109-01-rev-C.pdf
> ============================================================ ==========
> [First Class Peripherals (FCP)] B-Sider Tape Backup User Guide [and/or]
> [First Class Peripherals (FCP)] B-Sider Streaming Tape Subsystem Users Guide
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/documentation/hardware/ storage/disks/B-Sider Tape Backup User Guide.pdf
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> http://www.apple2online.com/web_documents/B-Sider Tape Backup User Guide.pdf
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> http://www.apple2online.com/web_documents/B-Sider%20Tape%20B ackup%20User%20Guide.pdf
> ============================================================ ==========
> [First Class Peripherals (FCP)] Sider GSOS
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/documentation/hardware/ storage/disks/sider_gsos.pdf
> ============================================================ ==========
> [First Class Peripherals (FCP)] Siderware Rev. D Tech-Tips
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/documentation/hardware/ storage/disks/SiderWare Rev. D Tech-Tips.pdf
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> http://www.apple2online.com/web_documents/first_class_periph erals_siderware_rev._d_tech-tips.pdf
> ============================================================ ==========
>
>
> ============================================================ ==========
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/
> ============================================================ ==========
> [First Class Peripherals (FCP)] Sider DOS.3.3.Utils (ShrinkIt Disk-Image)
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/DOS.3.3.Utils.sdk (=4)
> ============================================================ ==========
> [First Class Peripherals (FCP)] Sider ATS-Advanced Tech Services (Disk-Image)
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/Sider ATS-Advanced Tech Services.dsk (~~)
> ============================================================ ==========
> [First Class Peripherals (FCP)] Sider Drivers (ShrinkIt Disk-Image)
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/Sider.drvrs.sdk (=1)
> ============================================================ ==========
> [First Class Peripherals (FCP)] Sider Hard-Drive Utilities (ShrinkIt Disk-Image)
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/Sider.HD.Util.sdk (=2)
> ============================================================ ==========
> [First Class Peripherals (FCP)] Sider Installation Utilities (ShrinkIt Disk-Image)
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/Sider.Install.Utils.sdk (=5)
> ============================================================ ==========
> [First Class Peripherals (FCP)] Sider Full Prodos Format Utility (Disk-Image)
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/SIDER_FULL_PRODOS_FORMAT_UTIL.dsk (~~)
> ============================================================ ==========
> [First Class Peripherals (FCP)] Sider Drivers (ShrinkIt Disk-Image) Info
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/SiderDrvrs.sdk.txt (=1)
> ============================================================ ==========
> [First Class Peripherals (FCP)] Sider Low-Level (Disk-Image)
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/SiderLL.dsk (=3)
> ============================================================ ==========
> Siderware Hard Drive Installer (2GS Disk-Image)
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/Siderware Hard Drive Installer.2mg (=1)
> ============================================================ ==========
> Siderware Hard Drive Installer (Disk-Image)
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/siderware hard drive installer.po (=1)
> ============================================================ ==========
> (Disk-Image)
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/siderware utilities disk 1.po (=2)
> ============================================================ ==========
> Siderware Utilities 2 (Disk-Image)
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/siderware utilities disk 2.po (=3)
> ============================================================ ==========
> Siderware Backup/Restore Utility (Disk-Image)
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/SIDERWARE_BACKUP_RESTORE_UTIL.dsk
> ============================================================ ==========
> Siderware Installation Utilities (Disk-Image)
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/SIDERWARE_INSTALLATION_UTILS.dsk (=5)
> ============================================================ ==========
> Siderware Support Utilities for CPM (Disk-Image)
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/SIDERWARE_SUPPORT_UTILS_FOR_CPM.dsk
> ============================================================ ==========
> Siderware Support Utilities for DOS 3.3 (Disk-Image)
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/SIDERWARE_SUPPORT_UTILS_FOR_DOS3.3.dsk (=4)
> ============================================================ ==========
> Siderware Support Utilities for Pascal (Disk-Image)
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/SIDERWARE_SUPPORT_UTILS_FOR_PASCAL.dsk
> ============================================================ ==========
> Siderware Support Utilities for ProDOS (Disk-Image)
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/SIDERWARE_SUPPORT_UTILS_FOR_PRODOS.dsk
> ============================================================ ==========
>
>
> ============================================================ ==========
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/apple3/system/dr ivers/
> ============================================================ ==========
> On-Three Sider Driver (Disk-Image); /SIDER.UNI Disk for the Apple III.
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/apple3/system/dr ivers/on-three-sider-driver.dsk
> ============================================================ ==========
>
>
> ============================================================ ==========
> [First Class Peripherals (FCP)] Sider (HD+TD) {Information}
> ============================================================ ==========
> DOS.3.3.Utils.sdk = DOS 3.3 Volume 254, PO, (=4)
> on-three-sider-driver.dsk = ProDOS, SIDER.UNI, DO; (Apple III)
> Sider ATS-Advanced Tech Services.dsk = ProDOS, FORMAT, DO, (~~)
> Sider.drvrs.sdk = ProDOS, SIDER.DRIVERS, PO, (=1)
> Sider.HD.Util.sdk = ProDOS, SIDER, PO, (=2)
> Sider.Install.Utils.sdk = DOS 3.3 Volume 254, PO, (=5)
> SIDER_FULL_PRODOS_FORMAT_UTIL.dsk = ProDOS, FORMAT, DO, (~~)
> SiderDrvrs.sdk.txt = These are original Sider hard drive installer disks ! (=1)
> SiderLL.dsk = ProDOS, D, PO, (=3)
> Siderware Hard Drive Installer.2mg = ProDOS, SIDER.DRIVERS, PO, (=1)
> siderware hard drive installer.po = ProDOS, SIDER.DRIVERS, PO, (=1)
> siderware utilities disk 1.po = ProDOS, SIDER, PO, (=2)
> siderware utilities disk 2.po = ProDOS, D, PO, (=3)
> SIDERWARE_BACKUP_RESTORE_UTIL.dsk = Pascal, SIDER, DO
> SIDERWARE_INSTALLATION_UTILS.dsk = DOS 3.3 Volume 254, DO, (=5)
> SIDERWARE_SUPPORT_UTILS_FOR_CPM.dsk = CPM, DO
> SIDERWARE_SUPPORT_UTILS_FOR_DOS3.3.dsk = DOS 3.3 Volume 254, DO, (=4)
> SIDERWARE_SUPPORT_UTILS_FOR_PASCAL.dsk = Pascal, FCP, DO
> SIDERWARE_SUPPORT_UTILS_FOR_PRODOS.dsk = ProDOS, SIDER, DO, (=2)
> ============================================================ ==========
> Notes: (Identified in the order of their discovery.)
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> (~~): Disk images that are similar, but not identical!
> Sider ATS-Advanced Tech Services.dsk = ProDOS, FORMAT, DO, (~~)
> SIDER_FULL_PRODOS_FORMAT_UTIL.dsk = ProDOS, FORMAT, DO, (~~)
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----
> (==): Files on these disk images that are identical to their correspondents:
> FORMAT.SYSTEM SYS $2000 16-Nov-87 19:00 ProDOS 16710
> PARK.HEADS SYS $0000 18-Nov-87 23:37 ProDOS 348
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> (=1): All of these disk-images are images of the original Sider hard drive installer disk!
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> (=1): All of the files on these disk images are identical to their correspondents:
> Sider.drvrs.sdk = ProDOS, SIDER.DRIVERS, PO, (=1)
> Siderware Hard Drive Installer.2mg = ProDOS, SIDER.DRIVERS, PO, (=1)
> siderware hard drive installer.po = ProDOS, SIDER.DRIVERS, PO, (=1)
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> (=2): All of the files on these disk images are identical to their correspondents:
> Sider.HD.Util.sdk = ProDOS, SIDER, PO, (=2)
> Siderware Utilities Disk 1.po = ProDOS, SIDER, PO, (=2)
> SIDERWARE_SUPPORT_UTILS_FOR_PRODOS.dsk = ProDOS, SIDER, DO, (=2)
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> (=3): All of the files on these disk images are identical to their correspondents:
> SiderLL.dsk = ProDOS, D, PO, (=3)
> Siderware Utilities Disk 2.po = ProDOS, D, PO, (=3)
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> (=4): All of the files on these disk images are identical to their correspondents:
> DOS.3.3.Utils.sdk = DOS 3.3 Volume 254, PO, (=4)
> SIDERWARE_SUPPORT_UTILS_FOR_DOS3.3.dsk = DOS 3.3 Volume 254, DO, (=4)
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> (=5): All of the files on these disk images are identical to their correspondents:
> Sider.Install.Utils.sdk = DOS 3.3 Volume 254, PO, (=5)
> SIDERWARE_INSTALLATION_UTILS.dsk = DOS 3.3 Volume 254, DO, (=5)
> ============================================================ ==========
>
>
> ============================================================ ==========
> [First Class Peripherals (FCP)] Sider Drivers (ShrinkIt Disk-Image) Information:
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> Source: ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/SiderDrvrs.sdk.txt (=1)
> ============================================================ ==========
> Original Content:
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> This is the original Sider hard drive installer disk. It's a selfbooting GS/OS
> disk that has all of the Sider hard drive drivers as listed below:
>
> SIDER.40
> SIDER.90
> SIDER.MULTI.OS
> SIDER.PRO.10H
> SIDER.PRO.20H
> SIDER.PRO.D2
> SIDER.PRO.NEC40
>
> It also contains the Unidisk 3.5 driver. Other utilities on the disk include
> Adv.Disk.Util and Backup2.system.
> ============================================================ ==========
>
> Hoping all this will be useful to you,
>
> James Davis
>
Re: Sider D4 question on Apple 2. [message #383897 is a reply to message #383883] Mon, 13 May 2019 20:40 Go to previous message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: James Davis

Section --> 8. The Hardware Appendix <-- talks about the differences.

"mrbrad" wrote in message news:qbc7ae$hqf$1@dont-email.me...


Thanks. Will probably just wait and see if I have an actual D4 about and
compare cards (xebec/sider) with the regular sider cards...see if any
difference. That is my main concern that previous 'daisy chain' versions
of the xebec/sider/first class peripheals cards will not work on a D4 at
all due to the daisy chain options on those and NOT on the Sider D4
according to the manual.

Though again, you'd think it could still work with other siders as the
last in the xebec/sider chain..but if so you'd think the manual would
state that.

thanks for the links will archive them and/look over

brad


On 5/13/2019 3:27 AM, James Davis wrote:
> On Sunday, May 12, 2019 at 12:52:03 PM UTC-7, James Davis wrote:
>> On Saturday, May 11, 2019 at 5:20:12 PM UTC-7, mrbrad wrote:
>>> A quick question on the Sider D4 SCSI hard drive by Xebec. I am
>>> getting one w/o a card and cable. But the .pdf manual link below says
>>> that the "Sider D4 is a stand alone and not able to daisy chain with
>>> other Sider's unit. It can be daisy chained with the tape backup unit"
>>>
>>> Thus my question is can I use a 'standard' Xebec or Sider Card? If so is
>>> there a firmware version that is needed for above? Or does the D4 have
>>> its 'own' card and thus I'm screwed till one of those shows up? Also
>>> while I'm at it. What size is a D4 40mb? Thanks.
>>>
>>> I have a dozen of these Siders but NO D4 (i even have the old tape
>>> cassette xebec unit). So anyway am unclear.
>>>
>>> I assume at worst, this D4 can be used as regular SCSI with
>>> an Apple II SCSI card or a Ramfast SCSI?
>>>
>>> Here is the Sider D4 Link below:
>>>
>>> Sider D4 Manual Link
>>>
>>> https://www.manualslib.com/manual/863673/First-Class-Periphe rals-Sider-D4.html?page=15&fbclid=IwAR2IlBxZuYXfs0vU4_gB mxKBwsBoS85LKJladotn4JbQxCIXJ8Oejh1hccc#manual
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> Brad
>>
>> My Sider D4 & T6 are SASI (pre-SCSI 1.0) and, according to my research, had the data lines with inverted voltage polarity from
>> the SCSI standard. That was the only hardware difference I ever found between SASI and SCSI. I always thought that if you ran
>> the data line through an inverter chip, it would be the same as SCSI. This is based on the Sider (Apple II) interface card that
>> came with my FCP Sider system. It came with a floppy or two of software (Sider drivers & utilities).
>
> Actually, it wasn't the data lines that were inverted, it was the addressing lines, IIRC.
>
> Also, IIRC, I uploaded a zip-file to Asimov a year or two ago containing the following files:
>
> ============================================================ ==========
> FCP Sider SASI+SCSI Extra Information
> (Disk Drive Interfacing Information)
> ============================================================ ==========
> Adding SCSI to the SB180 Computer by Steve Ciarcia,
> BYTE Magazine, May & June 1986, Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar:
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> BYTE 1986-5, CC, Pg.85.jpg -- Title Page (teaser)
> BYTE 1986-5, CC, Pg.92.jpg -- Comm180 Schematic, Part 1
> BYTE 1986-5, CC, Pg.93.jpg -- Comm180 Schematic, Part 2
> BYTE 1986-6, CC, Pg.112.jpg -- SCSI Device ID Bits on Data Bus
> ============================================================ ==========
> The SCSI Bus by L. Bret Glass,
> BYTE Magazine, February & March 1986, Hands On Under The Hood:
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> BYTE 1990-2, UH, Pg.267.jpg -- Title Page (teaser)
> BYTE 1990-2, UH, Pg.272.jpg -- The SCSI Signals
> BYTE 1990-3, UH, Pg.294.jpg -- Apple SCSI: Not Quite Standard
> ============================================================ ==========
> CV Tech Information:
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> Faster Than A Speeding ..., RamFast SCSI,
> inCider Magazine, November 1990, Editor's Choice:
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> inCider 1990-11, EC, Pg.96.jpg -- Editor's Significant Apple II Add-In
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> CV Tech IDC-50 to DB-25 SCSI Bus Pinout.jpg -- CVT Board Connector
> ============================================================ ==========
> FCP Sider SASI+SCSI Information:
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> FCP Sider IDC-50 to DB-25 SASI Bus Cable.jpg -- Wiring Diagram
> FCP Sider IDC-50 to DB-25 SASI Bus Pinout.jpg -- Sider HA Connections
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> FCP Sider SASI Host Adapter Drawing.jpg -- HA Chip Layout
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> FCP Sider SASI Host Adapter Schematic (L).jpg -- Left half of it
> FCP Sider SASI Host Adapter Schematic (M).jpg -- Middle half of it
> FCP Sider SASI Host Adapter Schematic (R).jpg -- Right half of it
> ============================================================ ==========
> MacIntosh Cent.50 to DB-25 SCSI Bus Pinout.jpg -- Centronics to DB-25
> ============================================================ ==========
> Sider Host Adapter's XEBEC.103816.A (2732-EPROM) 6502 Assembly Listing
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> XEBEC.103816.A (2732-EPROM) Assembly, Pg.1.jpg -- Start of printout
> XEBEC.103816.A (2732-EPROM) Assembly, Pg.2.jpg -- .
> XEBEC.103816.A (2732-EPROM) Assembly, Pg.3.jpg -- .
> XEBEC.103816.A (2732-EPROM) Assembly, Pg.4.jpg -- .
> XEBEC.103816.A (2732-EPROM) Assembly, Pg.5.jpg -- .
> XEBEC.103816.A (2732-EPROM) Assembly, Pg.6.jpg -- End of printout
> ============================================================ ==========
> Apple II, II+, IIc, IIe, Disk II, UniDisk, & MacIntosh, Drive(s) Info:
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> z. Apple II,+,e Disk II to Apple IIc Drive Adapter 1.jpg
> z. Apple II,+,e Disk II to Apple IIc Drive Adapter 2.jpg
> z. Apple II,+,e Disk II to MacIntosh Drive Adapter.jpg
> z. Apple IIe UniDisk Interface Connector Pinouts.jpg
> ============================================================ ==========
>
> Search their index for the "FCP Sider SASI+SCSI Extra Information" zip-file, or for "First Class Peripherals Sider", or just for
> "Sider".
>
> I also have this list:
>
> ============================================================ ==========
> First Class Peripherals (FCP) Sider (HD+TD)
> {FTP Sources, HTTP Sources, & Information}
> ============================================================ ==========
> HD: Hard Disk/Drive
> TD: Tape Drive - [Uses a special (FCP-Sider) cassette tape cartridge.]
> ============================================================ ==========
>
>
> ============================================================ ==========
> First Class Peripherals (FCP) Sider (HD+TD) {FTP Sources}
> ============================================================ ==========
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/documentation/hardware/ storage/disks/
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/apple3/system/dr ivers/
> ============================================================ ==========
>
>
> ============================================================ ==========
> First Class Peripherals (FCP) Sider (HD+TD) {HTTP Sources}
> ============================================================ ==========
> Everything2.com Website <http://everything2.com/title/The+Sider>
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> Apple2Online.com Website <http://www.apple2online.com/web_documents>
> ============================================================ ==========
>
>
> ============================================================ ==========
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/documentation/hardware/ storage/disks/
> http://www.apple2online.com/web_documents/
> ============================================================ ==========
> [First Class Peripherals (FCP)] Sider D4 Manual
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/documentation/hardware/ storage/disks/Sider D4 Manual.pdf
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> http://www.apple2online.com/web_documents/first_class_periph erals_sider_d4_manual.pdf
> ============================================================ ==========
> [First Class Peripherals (FCP)] Sider User's Manual
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/documentation/hardware/ storage/disks/Sider User's Manual.pdf
> ============================================================ ==========
> [First Class Peripherals (FCP)] Sider and B-Sider Manual (PN-106109-01-Rev-C)
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/documentation/hardware/ storage/disks/sider_and_bsider_manual_pn-106109-01-rev-C.pdf
> ============================================================ ==========
> [First Class Peripherals (FCP)] B-Sider Tape Backup User Guide [and/or]
> [First Class Peripherals (FCP)] B-Sider Streaming Tape Subsystem Users Guide
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/documentation/hardware/ storage/disks/B-Sider Tape Backup User Guide.pdf
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> http://www.apple2online.com/web_documents/B-Sider Tape Backup User Guide.pdf
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> http://www.apple2online.com/web_documents/B-Sider%20Tape%20B ackup%20User%20Guide.pdf
> ============================================================ ==========
> [First Class Peripherals (FCP)] Sider GSOS
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/documentation/hardware/ storage/disks/sider_gsos.pdf
> ============================================================ ==========
> [First Class Peripherals (FCP)] Siderware Rev. D Tech-Tips
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/documentation/hardware/ storage/disks/SiderWare Rev. D Tech-Tips.pdf
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> http://www.apple2online.com/web_documents/first_class_periph erals_siderware_rev._d_tech-tips.pdf
> ============================================================ ==========
>
>
> ============================================================ ==========
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/
> ============================================================ ==========
> [First Class Peripherals (FCP)] Sider DOS.3.3.Utils (ShrinkIt Disk-Image)
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/DOS.3.3.Utils.sdk (=4)
> ============================================================ ==========
> [First Class Peripherals (FCP)] Sider ATS-Advanced Tech Services (Disk-Image)
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/Sider ATS-Advanced Tech Services.dsk (~~)
> ============================================================ ==========
> [First Class Peripherals (FCP)] Sider Drivers (ShrinkIt Disk-Image)
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/Sider.drvrs.sdk (=1)
> ============================================================ ==========
> [First Class Peripherals (FCP)] Sider Hard-Drive Utilities (ShrinkIt Disk-Image)
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/Sider.HD.Util.sdk (=2)
> ============================================================ ==========
> [First Class Peripherals (FCP)] Sider Installation Utilities (ShrinkIt Disk-Image)
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/Sider.Install.Utils.sdk (=5)
> ============================================================ ==========
> [First Class Peripherals (FCP)] Sider Full Prodos Format Utility (Disk-Image)
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/SIDER_FULL_PRODOS_FORMAT_UTIL.dsk (~~)
> ============================================================ ==========
> [First Class Peripherals (FCP)] Sider Drivers (ShrinkIt Disk-Image) Info
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/SiderDrvrs.sdk.txt (=1)
> ============================================================ ==========
> [First Class Peripherals (FCP)] Sider Low-Level (Disk-Image)
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/SiderLL.dsk (=3)
> ============================================================ ==========
> Siderware Hard Drive Installer (2GS Disk-Image)
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/Siderware Hard Drive Installer.2mg (=1)
> ============================================================ ==========
> Siderware Hard Drive Installer (Disk-Image)
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/siderware hard drive installer.po (=1)
> ============================================================ ==========
> (Disk-Image)
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/siderware utilities disk 1.po (=2)
> ============================================================ ==========
> Siderware Utilities 2 (Disk-Image)
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/siderware utilities disk 2.po (=3)
> ============================================================ ==========
> Siderware Backup/Restore Utility (Disk-Image)
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/SIDERWARE_BACKUP_RESTORE_UTIL.dsk
> ============================================================ ==========
> Siderware Installation Utilities (Disk-Image)
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/SIDERWARE_INSTALLATION_UTILS.dsk (=5)
> ============================================================ ==========
> Siderware Support Utilities for CPM (Disk-Image)
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/SIDERWARE_SUPPORT_UTILS_FOR_CPM.dsk
> ============================================================ ==========
> Siderware Support Utilities for DOS 3.3 (Disk-Image)
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/SIDERWARE_SUPPORT_UTILS_FOR_DOS3.3.dsk (=4)
> ============================================================ ==========
> Siderware Support Utilities for Pascal (Disk-Image)
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/SIDERWARE_SUPPORT_UTILS_FOR_PASCAL.dsk
> ============================================================ ==========
> Siderware Support Utilities for ProDOS (Disk-Image)
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/SIDERWARE_SUPPORT_UTILS_FOR_PRODOS.dsk
> ============================================================ ==========
>
>
> ============================================================ ==========
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/apple3/system/dr ivers/
> ============================================================ ==========
> On-Three Sider Driver (Disk-Image); /SIDER.UNI Disk for the Apple III.
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/apple3/system/dr ivers/on-three-sider-driver.dsk
> ============================================================ ==========
>
>
> ============================================================ ==========
> [First Class Peripherals (FCP)] Sider (HD+TD) {Information}
> ============================================================ ==========
> DOS.3.3.Utils.sdk = DOS 3.3 Volume 254, PO, (=4)
> on-three-sider-driver.dsk = ProDOS, SIDER.UNI, DO; (Apple III)
> Sider ATS-Advanced Tech Services.dsk = ProDOS, FORMAT, DO, (~~)
> Sider.drvrs.sdk = ProDOS, SIDER.DRIVERS, PO, (=1)
> Sider.HD.Util.sdk = ProDOS, SIDER, PO, (=2)
> Sider.Install.Utils.sdk = DOS 3.3 Volume 254, PO, (=5)
> SIDER_FULL_PRODOS_FORMAT_UTIL.dsk = ProDOS, FORMAT, DO, (~~)
> SiderDrvrs.sdk.txt = These are original Sider hard drive installer disks ! (=1)
> SiderLL.dsk = ProDOS, D, PO, (=3)
> Siderware Hard Drive Installer.2mg = ProDOS, SIDER.DRIVERS, PO, (=1)
> siderware hard drive installer.po = ProDOS, SIDER.DRIVERS, PO, (=1)
> siderware utilities disk 1.po = ProDOS, SIDER, PO, (=2)
> siderware utilities disk 2.po = ProDOS, D, PO, (=3)
> SIDERWARE_BACKUP_RESTORE_UTIL.dsk = Pascal, SIDER, DO
> SIDERWARE_INSTALLATION_UTILS.dsk = DOS 3.3 Volume 254, DO, (=5)
> SIDERWARE_SUPPORT_UTILS_FOR_CPM.dsk = CPM, DO
> SIDERWARE_SUPPORT_UTILS_FOR_DOS3.3.dsk = DOS 3.3 Volume 254, DO, (=4)
> SIDERWARE_SUPPORT_UTILS_FOR_PASCAL.dsk = Pascal, FCP, DO
> SIDERWARE_SUPPORT_UTILS_FOR_PRODOS.dsk = ProDOS, SIDER, DO, (=2)
> ============================================================ ==========
> Notes: (Identified in the order of their discovery.)
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> (~~): Disk images that are similar, but not identical!
> Sider ATS-Advanced Tech Services.dsk = ProDOS, FORMAT, DO, (~~)
> SIDER_FULL_PRODOS_FORMAT_UTIL.dsk = ProDOS, FORMAT, DO, (~~)
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----
> (==): Files on these disk images that are identical to their correspondents:
> FORMAT.SYSTEM SYS $2000 16-Nov-87 19:00 ProDOS 16710
> PARK.HEADS SYS $0000 18-Nov-87 23:37 ProDOS 348
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> (=1): All of these disk-images are images of the original Sider hard drive installer disk!
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> (=1): All of the files on these disk images are identical to their correspondents:
> Sider.drvrs.sdk = ProDOS, SIDER.DRIVERS, PO, (=1)
> Siderware Hard Drive Installer.2mg = ProDOS, SIDER.DRIVERS, PO, (=1)
> siderware hard drive installer.po = ProDOS, SIDER.DRIVERS, PO, (=1)
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> (=2): All of the files on these disk images are identical to their correspondents:
> Sider.HD.Util.sdk = ProDOS, SIDER, PO, (=2)
> Siderware Utilities Disk 1.po = ProDOS, SIDER, PO, (=2)
> SIDERWARE_SUPPORT_UTILS_FOR_PRODOS.dsk = ProDOS, SIDER, DO, (=2)
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> (=3): All of the files on these disk images are identical to their correspondents:
> SiderLL.dsk = ProDOS, D, PO, (=3)
> Siderware Utilities Disk 2.po = ProDOS, D, PO, (=3)
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> (=4): All of the files on these disk images are identical to their correspondents:
> DOS.3.3.Utils.sdk = DOS 3.3 Volume 254, PO, (=4)
> SIDERWARE_SUPPORT_UTILS_FOR_DOS3.3.dsk = DOS 3.3 Volume 254, DO, (=4)
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> (=5): All of the files on these disk images are identical to their correspondents:
> Sider.Install.Utils.sdk = DOS 3.3 Volume 254, PO, (=5)
> SIDERWARE_INSTALLATION_UTILS.dsk = DOS 3.3 Volume 254, DO, (=5)
> ============================================================ ==========
>
>
> ============================================================ ==========
> [First Class Peripherals (FCP)] Sider Drivers (ShrinkIt Disk-Image) Information:
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> Source: ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/hardware/storage /disk/sider/SiderDrvrs.sdk.txt (=1)
> ============================================================ ==========
> Original Content:
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
> This is the original Sider hard drive installer disk. It's a selfbooting GS/OS
> disk that has all of the Sider hard drive drivers as listed below:
>
> SIDER.40
> SIDER.90
> SIDER.MULTI.OS
> SIDER.PRO.10H
> SIDER.PRO.20H
> SIDER.PRO.D2
> SIDER.PRO.NEC40
>
> It also contains the Unidisk 3.5 driver. Other utilities on the disk include
> Adv.Disk.Util and Backup2.system.
> ============================================================ ==========
>
> Hoping all this will be useful to you,
>
> James Davis
>
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