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z-ram and Apple //c Plus !?? [message #383114] Mon, 15 April 2019 17:44 Go to next message
Anonymous
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Originally posted by: paul.s.macmillan

I'm guessing the answer is No, but does anybody think that a z-ram ultra 3 would work with an Apple //c Plus?

I haven't seen any mention of this but I would love to hear that it works...

-Paul
Re: z-ram and Apple //c Plus !?? [message #383125 is a reply to message #383114] Mon, 15 April 2019 23:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gids.rs is currently offline  gids.rs
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On Monday, April 15, 2019 at 3:44:29 PM UTC-6, paul.s....@gmail.com wrote:
> I'm guessing the answer is No, but does anybody think that a z-ram ultra 3 would work with an Apple //c Plus?
>
> I haven't seen any mention of this but I would love to hear that it works...
>
> -Paul


I tried the Z-Ram 2 in my IIc+. No Dice. The Z-Ram 3 is essentially the same with the Z80.
Re: z-ram and Apple //c Plus !?? [message #383126 is a reply to message #383114] Mon, 15 April 2019 23:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Michael J. Mahon is currently offline  Michael J. Mahon
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<paul.s.macmillan@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm guessing the answer is No, but does anybody think that a z-ram ultra
> 3 would work with an Apple //c Plus?
>
> I haven't seen any mention of this but I would love to hear that it works...
>
> -Paul
>

Since the Z-RAM plugs into the processor socket (and more), and the
processor of the //c+ is different in placement and frequency, I’d say no.

--
-michael - NadaNet 3.1 and AppleCrate II: http://michaeljmahon.com
Re: z-ram and Apple //c Plus !?? [message #383128 is a reply to message #383126] Tue, 16 April 2019 06:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Anthony Adverse

On Tuesday, April 16, 2019 at 1:14:00 PM UTC+10, Michael J. Mahon wrote:
> <paul.s.macmillan@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I'm guessing the answer is No, but does anybody think that a z-ram ultra
>> 3 would work with an Apple //c Plus?
>>
>> I haven't seen any mention of this but I would love to hear that it works...
>>
>> -Paul
>>
>
> Since the Z-RAM plugs into the processor socket (and more), and the
> processor of the //c+ is different in placement and frequency, I’d say no.
>
> --
> -michael - NadaNet 3.1 and AppleCrate II: http://michaeljmahon.com

Hmm intriguing.. I can understand the sockets being in different places, but I'm going to go with the if you can get the plumbing right, it just might work. The extra speed in the C+ is like a fast chip isn't it? So its all on the processor itself, if that processor mounts back into the zram, why not....

Now that I've popped all this in, I just noticed Robs post up there says no... so ROB what didn't work?

A
Re: z-ram and Apple //c Plus !?? [message #383130 is a reply to message #383128] Tue, 16 April 2019 11:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gids.rs is currently offline  gids.rs
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On Tuesday, April 16, 2019 at 4:19:41 AM UTC-6, Anthony Adverse wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 16, 2019 at 1:14:00 PM UTC+10, Michael J. Mahon wrote:
>> paul wrote:
>>> I'm guessing the answer is No, but does anybody think that a z-ram ultra
>>> 3 would work with an Apple //c Plus?
>>>
>>> I haven't seen any mention of this but I would love to hear that it works...
>>>
>>> -Paul
>>>
>>
>> Since the Z-RAM plugs into the processor socket (and more), and the
>> processor of the //c+ is different in placement and frequency, I’d say no.
>>
>> --
>> -michael - NadaNet 3.1 and AppleCrate II: http://michaeljmahon.com
>
> Hmm intriguing.. I can understand the sockets being in different places, but I'm going to go with the if you can get the plumbing right, it just might work. The extra speed in the C+ is like a fast chip isn't it? So its all on the processor itself, if that processor mounts back into the zram, why not....
>
> Now that I've popped all this in, I just noticed Robs post up there says no.. so ROB what didn't work?
>
> A


The plumbing!!! :)
Re: z-ram and Apple //c Plus !?? [message #383138 is a reply to message #383130] Tue, 16 April 2019 18:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Anthony Adverse

On Wednesday, April 17, 2019 at 1:42:11 AM UTC+10, I am Rob wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 16, 2019 at 4:19:41 AM UTC-6, Anthony Adverse wrote:
>> On Tuesday, April 16, 2019 at 1:14:00 PM UTC+10, Michael J. Mahon wrote:
>>> paul wrote:
>>>> I'm guessing the answer is No, but does anybody think that a z-ram ultra
>>>> 3 would work with an Apple //c Plus?
>>>>
>>>> I haven't seen any mention of this but I would love to hear that it works...
>>>>
>>>> -Paul
>>>>
>>>
>>> Since the Z-RAM plugs into the processor socket (and more), and the
>>> processor of the //c+ is different in placement and frequency, I’d say no.
>>>
>>> --
>>> -michael - NadaNet 3.1 and AppleCrate II: http://michaeljmahon.com
>>
>> Hmm intriguing.. I can understand the sockets being in different places, but I'm going to go with the if you can get the plumbing right, it just might work. The extra speed in the C+ is like a fast chip isn't it? So its all on the processor itself, if that processor mounts back into the zram, why not....
>>
>> Now that I've popped all this in, I just noticed Robs post up there says no.. so ROB what didn't work?
>>
>> A
>
>
> The plumbing!!! :)

Chuckle, I imagine you'd have to either insert an adapter card, or cable it..
Re: z-ram and Apple //c Plus !?? [message #383203 is a reply to message #383128] Fri, 19 April 2019 16:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: wayne_j_stewart

It's not all on the processor. It's basically a zipchip but instead of the parts being all on the chip Apple put them on the IIc Plus motherboard so there's the processor, tag & cache chips, oscillator and other chips.
Re: z-ram and Apple //c Plus !?? [message #383217 is a reply to message #383128] Fri, 19 April 2019 20:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gids.rs is currently offline  gids.rs
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> Hmm intriguing.. I can understand the sockets being in different places, but I'm going to go with the if you can get the plumbing right, it just might work. The extra speed in the C+ is like a fast chip isn't it? So its all on the processor itself, if that processor mounts back into the zram, why not....
>
> Now that I've popped all this in, I just noticed Robs post up there says no.. so ROB what didn't work?
>
> A


I was playing around with setting the clock on my ZRAM-2 on a regular IIc and now that I think of it and hearing how finicky apple hardware is, I don't know if either the clock or the Z80 chip would take instructions at a faster cpu speed than 1 Mhz, although I am sure the RAM would be ok.

On the same subject, I installed a 32 Mhz oscillator in my IIc+ and it gives me a stable 8 Mhz speed. I would do this upgrade to any IIc+ over getting extra Ram for it.
Re: z-ram and Apple //c Plus !?? [message #383222 is a reply to message #383128] Fri, 19 April 2019 22:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mdj is currently offline  mdj
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On Tuesday, 16 April 2019 20:19:41 UTC+10, Anthony Adverse wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 16, 2019 at 1:14:00 PM UTC+10, Michael J. Mahon wrote:

>>> I'm guessing the answer is No, but does anybody think that a z-ram ultra
>>> 3 would work with an Apple //c Plus?
>>>
>>> I haven't seen any mention of this but I would love to hear that it works...
>>>
>>> -Paul
>>>
>>
>> Since the Z-RAM plugs into the processor socket (and more), and the
>> processor of the //c+ is different in placement and frequency, I’d say no.
>>
>> --
>> -michael - NadaNet 3.1 and AppleCrate II: http://michaeljmahon.com
>
> Hmm intriguing.. I can understand the sockets being in different places, but I'm going to go with the if you can get the plumbing right, it just might work. The extra speed in the C+ is like a fast chip isn't it? So its all on the processor itself, if that processor mounts back into the zram, why not....

If it was possible to rig the onboard ZipChip circuitry to power up disabled, it might be possible to get it to work, but good luck ever figuring that out.

Of course, it makes far more practical sense to install the Z-RAM in a regular IIc and install a ZipChip on the Z-RAM. The 5.25" internal drive is of far more practical use than the 3.5"

The IIc+ is a series of 'design' decisions to make sure Apple didn't get out checkboxed on education RFPs by Laser.

They could've achieved the same outcomes of performance and 3.5" drive by hacking the slots of a IIgs motherboard and using that without having to license the Zip Chip or develop the MIG circuitry. It really shows you how committed they were to market segmentation and cash-cowing the Apple II that such an obvious thing wasn't done.

Matt
Re: z-ram and Apple //c Plus !?? [message #383228 is a reply to message #383203] Sat, 20 April 2019 04:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Anthony Adverse

On Saturday, April 20, 2019 at 6:58:55 AM UTC+10, wayne_j...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> It's not all on the processor. It's basically a zipchip but instead of the parts being all on the chip Apple put them on the IIc Plus motherboard so there's the processor, tag & cache chips, oscillator and other chips.

I don't think I've ever been in the same room as a c+ so forgive my ignorance. I'm surprised they put goodies on the Mobo, given what Apple was like..

A
Re: z-ram and Apple //c Plus !?? [message #383229 is a reply to message #383228] Sat, 20 April 2019 05:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mdj is currently offline  mdj
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On Saturday, 20 April 2019 18:55:27 UTC+10, Anthony Adverse wrote:
> On Saturday, April 20, 2019 at 6:58:55 AM UTC+10, wayne_j...@yahoo.ca wrote:
>> It's not all on the processor. It's basically a zipchip but instead of the parts being all on the chip Apple put them on the IIc Plus motherboard so there's the processor, tag & cache chips, oscillator and other chips.
>
> I don't think I've ever been in the same room as a c+ so forgive my ignorance. I'm surprised they put goodies on the Mobo, given what Apple was like..

There were concerned about the reliability of the Zip Chip. Those concerns were probably well founded - the early units have habit of SRAM failure, probably due to quality control issues in the potting process.
Re: z-ram and Apple //c Plus !?? [message #383240 is a reply to message #383229] Sat, 20 April 2019 11:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: wayne_j_stewart

Probably also concerns about being depend on a single supplier of a crucial part.
Re: z-ram and Apple //c Plus !?? [message #383281 is a reply to message #383217] Sun, 21 April 2019 12:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Steven Hirsch is currently offline  Steven Hirsch
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On 4/19/19 8:23 PM, I am Rob wrote:

> I was playing around with setting the clock on my ZRAM-2 on a regular IIc
> and now that I think of it and hearing how finicky apple hardware is, I
> don't know if either the clock or the Z80 chip would take instructions at a
> faster cpu speed than 1 Mhz, although I am sure the RAM would be ok.
>
> On the same subject, I installed a 32 Mhz oscillator in my IIc+ and it
> gives me a stable 8 Mhz speed. I would do this upgrade to any IIc+ over
> getting extra Ram for it.

Most of them seem to tolerate this upgrade quite well. I have one here that's
been similarly modified.
Re: z-ram and Apple //c Plus !?? [message #383288 is a reply to message #383281] Sun, 21 April 2019 21:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mdj is currently offline  mdj
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On Monday, 22 April 2019 02:35:57 UTC+10, Steven Hirsch wrote:

>> On the same subject, I installed a 32 Mhz oscillator in my IIc+ and it
>> gives me a stable 8 Mhz speed. I would do this upgrade to any IIc+ over
>> getting extra Ram for it.
>
> Most of them seem to tolerate this upgrade quite well. I have one here that's
> been similarly modified.

Mine does 10Mhz just fine, which is somewhat bemusing as the SRAM is labelled 100ns. In practice these parts must be about half that access time.
Re: z-ram and Apple //c Plus !?? [message #383486 is a reply to message #383281] Thu, 02 May 2019 01:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: csabainian

On Monday, April 22, 2019 at 2:35:57 AM UTC+10, Steven Hirsch wrote:
> On 4/19/19 8:23 PM, I am Rob wrote:
>
>> I was playing around with setting the clock on my ZRAM-2 on a regular IIc
>> and now that I think of it and hearing how finicky apple hardware is, I
>> don't know if either the clock or the Z80 chip would take instructions at a
>> faster cpu speed than 1 Mhz, although I am sure the RAM would be ok.
>>
>> On the same subject, I installed a 32 Mhz oscillator in my IIc+ and it
>> gives me a stable 8 Mhz speed. I would do this upgrade to any IIc+ over
>> getting extra Ram for it.
>
> Most of them seem to tolerate this upgrade quite well. I have one here that's
> been similarly modified.

Can anyone provide, or link to, detailed instructions for doing this
oscillator upgrade?
Re: z-ram and Apple //c Plus !?? [message #383531 is a reply to message #383486] Thu, 02 May 2019 20:32 Go to previous message
Michael J. Mahon is currently offline  Michael J. Mahon
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csabainian <lachlan.rimes@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Monday, April 22, 2019 at 2:35:57 AM UTC+10, Steven Hirsch wrote:
>> On 4/19/19 8:23 PM, I am Rob wrote:
>>
>>> I was playing around with setting the clock on my ZRAM-2 on a regular IIc
>>> and now that I think of it and hearing how finicky apple hardware is, I
>>> don't know if either the clock or the Z80 chip would take instructions at a
>>> faster cpu speed than 1 Mhz, although I am sure the RAM would be ok.
>>>
>>> On the same subject, I installed a 32 Mhz oscillator in my IIc+ and it
>>> gives me a stable 8 Mhz speed. I would do this upgrade to any IIc+ over
>>> getting extra Ram for it.
>>
>> Most of them seem to tolerate this upgrade quite well. I have one here that's
>> been similarly modified.
>
> Can anyone provide, or link to, detailed instructions for doing this
> oscillator upgrade?
>

It’s pretty straightforward—you just replace the 16MHz crystal oscillator
with a higher frequency oscillator. 32MHz is the most common successful
replacement.

Most people add a socket to make “downgrading” easier if desired, and a
nylon zip tie around the socket and oscillator is recommended for shock
resistance.

--
-michael - NadaNet 3.1 and AppleCrate II: http://michaeljmahon.com
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