| Re: 1965 Remington Rand tracking your kid [message #383186 is a reply to message #383183] |
Thu, 18 April 2019 19:02   |
Andrew Swallow
Messages: 1705
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 18/04/2019 22:33, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 16, 2019 at 7:19:49 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>
>>> For instance, my trig teacher said it was useful only for students
>>> going on to study sci/tech, not others.
>>
>> Which is totally bogus. Even a carpenter uses trig, even if he doesn't
>> realize it.
>
> Could you elaborate?
>
> If he "doesn't realize it", then it would seem a carpenter wouldn't
> need to learn it. I can't help but suspect a carpenter is using
> pre-printed tables or charts, not sitting there looking up cosines
> and arctangents.
>
>
Many builders check a corner is flat and straight by measuring 3 inches
along the left hand wall and 4 inches along the right hand wall. If the
diagonal is 5 inches he got the angle right.
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| Re: 1965 Remington Rand tracking your kid [message #383187 is a reply to message #383184] |
Thu, 18 April 2019 19:21 |
Quadibloc
Messages: 4399
Registered: June 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Thursday, April 18, 2019 at 3:33:33 PM UTC-6, Gene Wirchenko wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Apr 2019 10:15:58 -0500, JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> wrote:
>> And that desu is a question and is pronounced des.
>
> "desu" is not a question. It is a present tense form of to be.
> It can be clipped to "des".
> watashi wa Gene desu.
> means
> I am Gene.
Maybe he had desu confused with ka, which sometimes appears in association with it.
Usually, in Japan, women pronounce the final u, and men use the clipped
pronounciation almost invariably.
John Savard
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| Re: 1965 Remington Rand tracking your kid [message #383188 is a reply to message #383186] |
Thu, 18 April 2019 19:58 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On 18/04/2019 22:33, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>> On Tuesday, April 16, 2019 at 7:19:49 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>
>>>> For instance, my trig teacher said it was useful only for students
>>>> going on to study sci/tech, not others.
>>>
>>> Which is totally bogus. Even a carpenter uses trig, even if he doesn't
>>> realize it.
>>
>> Could you elaborate?
>>
>> If he "doesn't realize it", then it would seem a carpenter wouldn't
>> need to learn it. I can't help but suspect a carpenter is using
>> pre-printed tables or charts, not sitting there looking up cosines
>> and arctangents.
>>
>>
>
> Many builders check a corner is flat and straight by measuring 3 inches
> along the left hand wall and 4 inches along the right hand wall. If the
> diagonal is 5 inches he got the angle right.
>
that’s geometry
--
Pete
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| Re: 1965 Remington Rand tracking your kid [message #383194 is a reply to message #383186] |
Fri, 19 April 2019 05:29 |
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Originally posted by: Gareth's was W7 now W10 Downstairs Computer
On 19/04/2019 00:02, Andrew Swallow wrote:
> On 18/04/2019 22:33, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>> On Tuesday, April 16, 2019 at 7:19:49 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>
>>>> For instance, my trig teacher said it was useful only for students
>>>> going on to study sci/tech, not others.
>>>
>>> Which is totally bogus. Even a carpenter uses trig, even if he doesn't
>>> realize it.
>>
>> Could you elaborate?
>>
>> If he "doesn't realize it", then it would seem a carpenter wouldn't
>> need to learn it. I can't help but suspect a carpenter is using
>> pre-printed tables or charts, not sitting there looking up cosines
>> and arctangents.
>>
>>
>
> Many builders check a corner is flat and straight by measuring 3 inches
> along the left hand wall and 4 inches along the right hand wall. If the
> diagonal is 5 inches he got the angle right.
That's geometry and not trigonometry.
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| Re: 1965 Remington Rand tracking your kid [message #383195 is a reply to message #383183] |
Fri, 19 April 2019 09:30 |
scott
Messages: 4237
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
> On Tuesday, April 16, 2019 at 7:19:49 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>
>>> For instance, my trig teacher said it was useful only for students
>>> going on to study sci/tech, not others.
>>
>> Which is totally bogus. Even a carpenter uses trig, even if he doesn't
>> realize it.
>
> Could you elaborate?
>
> If he "doesn't realize it", then it would seem a carpenter wouldn't
> need to learn it. I can't help but suspect a carpenter is using
> pre-printed tables or charts, not sitting there looking up cosines
> and arctangents.
>
See "Audels Carpenters and Builders Guide #2"[**], Chapter 26 entitled
"Mathematics for Carpenters"
Particularly section 3 of that chapter which is entitled
"Trigonometry"
This chapter contains 15 pages discussing both spherical and plane
trigonometry. After a discussion of the basic concepts and terminology,
Sample problem #1:
"Find length of rafter for a 12 ft run and 8 ft rise allowing for 1 1/2" ridge board"
wherein is stated
"...it will be seen that the rafter corresponds to the secant, hence look at a
table of natural trigonometrical functions, giving values for secant, and find
1.2062 value of secant for 34 degrees ..."
[**] My copy is copyright 1923, leather bound, gilt edged, part of a 4 volume
set packed with useful information.
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| Re: 1965 Remington Rand tracking your kid [message #383196 is a reply to message #383187] |
Fri, 19 April 2019 15:30 |
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Originally posted by: JimP
On Thu, 18 Apr 2019 16:21:43 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
<jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> On Thursday, April 18, 2019 at 3:33:33 PM UTC-6, Gene Wirchenko wrote:
>> On Thu, 18 Apr 2019 10:15:58 -0500, JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> And that desu is a question and is pronounced des.
>>
>> "desu" is not a question. It is a present tense form of to be.
>> It can be clipped to "des".
>> watashi wa Gene desu.
>> means
>> I am Gene.
>
> Maybe he had desu confused with ka, which sometimes appears in association with it.
>
> Usually, in Japan, women pronounce the final u, and men use the clipped
> pronounciation almost invariably.
>
> John Savard
Yeah desu ka is a question ending. Probably if I practiced
substantionally more than I currently do, I might learn it.
--
Jim
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| Re: 1965 Remington Rand tracking your kid [message #383198 is a reply to message #383193] |
Fri, 19 April 2019 16:59 |
Gene Wirchenko
Messages: 1166
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Fri, 19 Apr 2019 10:27:59 +0100, Gareth's was W7 now W10 Downstairs
Computer <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 18/04/2019 22:33, Gene Wirchenko wrote:
>>> On Thu, 18 Apr 2019 15:06:12 +0100, Gareth's was W7 now W10 Downstairs
>>> Computer <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Watashi wa sukoshi shika nihongo wo hannemasen, possibly?
>>
>> I got five of seven of those words and part of a sixth.
>
> As far as I can remember, and it was 20 years ago and not
> exercised since ...
>
> "I can speak only a little Japanese"
Hey! I guessed right about the meaning. G is for Gene and
guess.
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
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| Re: 1965 Remington Rand tracking your kid [message #383199 is a reply to message #383151] |
Fri, 19 April 2019 17:30 |
hancock4
Messages: 6746
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Wednesday, April 17, 2019 at 1:43:24 PM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 16, 2019 at 4:19:06 PM UTC-6, hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>
>> Many colleges required some form of calculus, sometimes the real
>> industrial strength version, sometimes a watered down version
>> for all students. Likewise, many required Fortran for all
>> students. Both mandates were stupid.
>
> Oh, I agree.
>
> But in some countries, or, in Canada, in some provinces (but not others), it's
> fairly common for colleges to have what I think is an equally stupid
> requirement: requiring all students to take a second language.
The usefulness of a foreign language is debatable. Some argue
it's a waste of time. But others argue (as some suggest
for calculus), that it inspires thinking, helps with English,
and is the mark of an educated person.
Personally, I'm not sure I agree with that. Just because I
can understand some French phrases mentioned on TV I don't
think means all that much.
However: we are living in a smaller and smaller integrated
global world, much more so than when most of got out of school.
I can't help but wonder if knowing a foreign language today
will have practical benefits on the job...
1) Spanish--there are increasing numbers of Spanish speakers
in the U.S. Knowing their language may mean reaching more
customers and thus more revenue.
2) Asian languages--we do an enormous amount of trade with China
and other Pacific countries. It may be useful, even a necessity,
to know Chinese, Japanese, Korean, or some other language.
I am amazed at many young people I know who graduate college
and go off to China or Japan.
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| Re: 1965 Remington Rand tracking your kid [message #383200 is a reply to message #383153] |
Fri, 19 April 2019 17:37 |
hancock4
Messages: 6746
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Wednesday, April 17, 2019 at 3:08:06 PM UTC-4, Mike Spencer wrote:
> The justification for recommending or requiring calculus for those
> unlikely to employ it vocationally is, AFAICT, that it introduces one
> to a new variety of analytical & critical thinking. I agree with this
> motivation.
I must respectfully disagree. In my opinion, calculus is just
too technical and not inspiration in introducing a new way of
critical thinking.
I do think all students should take algebra I, geometry, and
algebra II because (1) they're useful, and (2) they teach
critical thinking.
> The downside is that courses are typically taught by profs who assume
> that their students seek to become mathematicians or at least to
> dabble in the stringently disciplined domain of professional
> mathematics. Presenting calculus (or group theory or graph theory
> or...) without, on the one hand watering down the basic concepts
> (e.g. formal definition of the derivative) but OTOH not demanding
> fully disciplined mathematical thinking (e.g. proving theorems) would
> be good.
A good college should have two tracks of courses, one for
eng/sci majors, one for everyone else, appropriate watered-down.
My college did that with physics and it was great. The eng/sci
courses were literally rocket science (they shot off things
and studied their trajectory). The other course was basically
a magic show--lasers and light diffraction, Geiger counters,
friction, air trains, gravity, etc. I think the only math in
that class was the room number on the door. But it did explain,
in a very understandable and interesting way, all the principles.
Indeed, the business college should've had an accounting/
economics/finance class for non business majors. Not to
teach someone how to keep the books, but just to define
what a budget, balance sheet, and income statement were,
and some basic principles of finance and economics. Indeed,
that sort of thing is vital for most engineers to know if
they're designing something--cost is always a factor.
[snip]
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| Re: 1965 Remington Rand tracking your kid [message #383201 is a reply to message #383199] |
Fri, 19 April 2019 17:38 |
Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
> On Wednesday, April 17, 2019 at 1:43:24 PM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
>> On Tuesday, April 16, 2019 at 4:19:06 PM UTC-6, hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>
>>> Many colleges required some form of calculus, sometimes the real
>>> industrial strength version, sometimes a watered down version
>>> for all students. Likewise, many required Fortran for all
>>> students. Both mandates were stupid.
>>
>> Oh, I agree.
>>
>> But in some countries, or, in Canada, in some provinces (but not others), it's
>> fairly common for colleges to have what I think is an equally stupid
>> requirement: requiring all students to take a second language.
>
> The usefulness of a foreign language is debatable. Some argue
> it's a waste of time. But others argue (as some suggest
> for calculus), that it inspires thinking, helps with English,
> and is the mark of an educated person.
>
> Personally, I'm not sure I agree with that. Just because I
> can understand some French phrases mentioned on TV I don't
> think means all that much.
>
> However: we are living in a smaller and smaller integrated
> global world, much more so than when most of got out of school.
> I can't help but wonder if knowing a foreign language today
> will have practical benefits on the job...
>
> 1) Spanish--there are increasing numbers of Spanish speakers
> in the U.S. Knowing their language may mean reaching more
> customers and thus more revenue.
>
> 2) Asian languages--we do an enormous amount of trade with China
> and other Pacific countries. It may be useful, even a necessity,
> to know Chinese, Japanese, Korean, or some other language.
>
> I am amazed at many young people I know who graduate college
> and go off to China or Japan.
That's great.
I imagine there is a big demand for English teachers in China and
Japan.
--
Dan Espen
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| Re: 1965 Remington Rand tracking your kid [message #383202 is a reply to message #383160] |
Fri, 19 April 2019 17:39 |
hancock4
Messages: 6746
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Wednesday, April 17, 2019 at 8:01:11 PM UTC-4, Peter Flass wrote:
> That may be, but weren’t we talking about the 60s? I don’t know whether
> the 1130 had BASIC, but that would have been a good choice. I know it had
> an interpreted student version of PL/I, but I’m still looking for a copy
> (plug)
Our 1130 had a timesharing BASIC in the late 1960s, but it was
awfully slow. Developed by an independent vendor, I think. We
subsequent replaced the 1130 with an HP-2000 which was a far
superior machine for timesharing.
I still wish I had some exposure to someone who did useful work
on an 1130 and wasn't bothered by its horribly slow I/O. As
mentioned, if were able to load it up with data and get the
CPU running, it could do reasonably well, but getting data in
and out was horrendous.
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| Re: 1965 Remington Rand tracking your kid [message #383204 is a reply to message #383200] |
Fri, 19 April 2019 17:58 |
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Originally posted by: J. Clarke
On Fri, 19 Apr 2019 14:37:00 -0700 (PDT), hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 17, 2019 at 3:08:06 PM UTC-4, Mike Spencer wrote:
>
>
>> The justification for recommending or requiring calculus for those
>> unlikely to employ it vocationally is, AFAICT, that it introduces one
>> to a new variety of analytical & critical thinking. I agree with this
>> motivation.
>
> I must respectfully disagree. In my opinion, calculus is just
> too technical and not inspiration in introducing a new way of
> critical thinking.
A problem with calculus as it is taught is that the mathematicians
have moved it away from its roots. To the mathematician the most
important thing for a student to know about calculus is how to prove
the Fundamental Theorem, and not how to actually use it to perform
calculations. This means that it is introduced in a rather abstract
way that doesn't lead to a lot of physical insight.
There is an alternative approach, called "nonstandard analysis", which
makes some alterations to the concept of infinity in order to allow
rigorous presentation of calculus using the infinitesimals that Newton
and Leibniz originated based on physics. There is a calculus text
that uses this approach--http://www.math.wisc.edu/~keisler/calc.html.
Whether it gives more insight is a matter of opinion--I came to it
after getting the conventional approach and found some of it tough
going but I'm not sure if that's because I had to unlearn some things
or whether it's inherent in the book or its approach.
> I do think all students should take algebra I, geometry, and
> algebra II because (1) they're useful, and (2) they teach
> critical thinking.
>
>
>> The downside is that courses are typically taught by profs who assume
>> that their students seek to become mathematicians or at least to
>> dabble in the stringently disciplined domain of professional
>> mathematics. Presenting calculus (or group theory or graph theory
>> or...) without, on the one hand watering down the basic concepts
>> (e.g. formal definition of the derivative) but OTOH not demanding
>> fully disciplined mathematical thinking (e.g. proving theorems) would
>> be good.
>
> A good college should have two tracks of courses, one for
> eng/sci majors, one for everyone else, appropriate watered-down.
>
> My college did that with physics and it was great. The eng/sci
> courses were literally rocket science (they shot off things
> and studied their trajectory). The other course was basically
> a magic show--lasers and light diffraction, Geiger counters,
> friction, air trains, gravity, etc. I think the only math in
> that class was the room number on the door. But it did explain,
> in a very understandable and interesting way, all the principles.
>
> Indeed, the business college should've had an accounting/
> economics/finance class for non business majors. Not to
> teach someone how to keep the books, but just to define
> what a budget, balance sheet, and income statement were,
> and some basic principles of finance and economics. Indeed,
> that sort of thing is vital for most engineers to know if
> they're designing something--cost is always a factor.
It is, but I'm not sure "economics for dummies" is the answer. I took
the required "engineering economics" course at Georgia Tech and didn't
get a lot out of it. Now I'm getting real finance for people who are
planning to work in the field and I'm finding out why I didn't get a
lot out of it.
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| Re: 1965 Remington Rand tracking your kid [message #383205 is a reply to message #383201] |
Fri, 19 April 2019 18:08 |
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Originally posted by: J. Clarke
On Fri, 19 Apr 2019 17:38:10 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
wrote:
> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
>
>> On Wednesday, April 17, 2019 at 1:43:24 PM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, April 16, 2019 at 4:19:06 PM UTC-6, hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> Many colleges required some form of calculus, sometimes the real
>>>> industrial strength version, sometimes a watered down version
>>>> for all students. Likewise, many required Fortran for all
>>>> students. Both mandates were stupid.
>>>
>>> Oh, I agree.
>>>
>>> But in some countries, or, in Canada, in some provinces (but not others), it's
>>> fairly common for colleges to have what I think is an equally stupid
>>> requirement: requiring all students to take a second language.
>>
>> The usefulness of a foreign language is debatable. Some argue
>> it's a waste of time. But others argue (as some suggest
>> for calculus), that it inspires thinking, helps with English,
>> and is the mark of an educated person.
>>
>> Personally, I'm not sure I agree with that. Just because I
>> can understand some French phrases mentioned on TV I don't
>> think means all that much.
>>
>> However: we are living in a smaller and smaller integrated
>> global world, much more so than when most of got out of school.
>> I can't help but wonder if knowing a foreign language today
>> will have practical benefits on the job...
>>
>> 1) Spanish--there are increasing numbers of Spanish speakers
>> in the U.S. Knowing their language may mean reaching more
>> customers and thus more revenue.
>>
>> 2) Asian languages--we do an enormous amount of trade with China
>> and other Pacific countries. It may be useful, even a necessity,
>> to know Chinese, Japanese, Korean, or some other language.
>>
>> I am amazed at many young people I know who graduate college
>> and go off to China or Japan.
>
> That's great.
>
> I imagine there is a big demand for English teachers in China and
> Japan.
China maybe. English is pretty far into Japanese pop culture already.
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| Re: 1965 Remington Rand tracking your kid [message #383206 is a reply to message #383201] |
Fri, 19 April 2019 18:30 |
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Fri, 19 Apr 2019 17:38:10 -0400
Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
> I imagine there is a big demand for English teachers in China and
> Japan.
Some time back there were adverts in airports claiming that there
were more people learning English in China than there were speaking it in
the UK.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
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| Re: 1965 Remington Rand tracking your kid [message #383207 is a reply to message #383199] |
Fri, 19 April 2019 19:21 |
Mike Spencer
Messages: 997
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
> The usefulness of a foreign language is debatable. Some argue
> it's a waste of time. But others argue (as some suggest
> for calculus), that it inspires thinking, helps with English,
> and is the mark of an educated person.
>
> Personally, I'm not sure I agree with that. Just because I
> can understand some French phrases mentioned on TV I don't
> think means all that much.
In high school (which required 2 years of a 2nd language) I opted for
German because it was alleged that it was "the language of science."
In general, that proved to have been a notion left over from decades
before my time but when I stated working in science, it happened that
the single most comprehensive and up to date book on my work subject
was in German -- Biochemie des Hoerorgans.
My career in science only lasted a year but in a few years I had
embarked on what turned out to be somthing of a life-long vocation and
whaddya know? It was in Germany that the skills and traditions of
blacksmithing as an art form [1] had best survived between
industrialization of ironworking after Bessemer and the revival in
Leftpondia in the 70s.
And being able to read der Spiegel (when I can get to a shop that
stocks it) gives me another take on the news.
> I am amazed at many young people I know who graduate college
> and go off to China or Japan.
Now that you mention it, yes, same.
[1] Kunstschmied. English didn't even have an equivalent word.
"Artist blacksmith" was coined in the 70s and even still clangs on
the ear of people who assume that blacksmiths shoe horses.
--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
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| Re: 1965 Remington Rand tracking your kid [message #383208 is a reply to message #383204] |
Fri, 19 April 2019 19:35 |
Quadibloc
Messages: 4399
Registered: June 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Friday, April 19, 2019 at 3:58:06 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:
> To the mathematician the most
> important thing for a student to know about calculus is how to prove
> the Fundamental Theorem, and not how to actually use it to perform
> calculations.
In that case, it is possible to make a lot of mathematicians happy.
I think you could use a felt board to teach the Fundamental Theorem of Calculus
to first-grade students.
It could be explained in terms of how fast little Tommy is using up his paint as
he paints a fence with fenceposts of different heights.
John Savard
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| Re: 1965 Remington Rand tracking your kid [message #383209 is a reply to message #383201] |
Fri, 19 April 2019 19:37 |
Quadibloc
Messages: 4399
Registered: June 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Friday, April 19, 2019 at 3:38:11 PM UTC-6, Dan Espen wrote:
> I imagine there is a big demand for English teachers in China and
> Japan.
I remember seeing a claim that one is better off accepting an English teaching job
in South Korea instead of Japan.
Assuming war doesn't break out.
John Savard
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| Re: 1965 Remington Rand tracking your kid [message #383210 is a reply to message #383207] |
Fri, 19 April 2019 19:39 |
Quadibloc
Messages: 4399
Registered: June 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Friday, April 19, 2019 at 5:22:27 PM UTC-6, Mike Spencer wrote:
> "Artist blacksmith" was coined in the 70s and even still clangs on
> the ear of people who assume that blacksmiths shoe horses.
I remember reading a fantasy novel which included a bit about a being who
collected metal sculptures that were confiscated to make weapons becsause of a
menacing dragon that wasn't the real menace...
John Savard
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| Re: 1965 Remington Rand tracking your kid [message #383211 is a reply to message #383199] |
Fri, 19 April 2019 19:43 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
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<hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 17, 2019 at 1:43:24 PM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
>> On Tuesday, April 16, 2019 at 4:19:06 PM UTC-6, hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>
>>> Many colleges required some form of calculus, sometimes the real
>>> industrial strength version, sometimes a watered down version
>>> for all students. Likewise, many required Fortran for all
>>> students. Both mandates were stupid.
>>
>> Oh, I agree.
>>
>> But in some countries, or, in Canada, in some provinces (but not others), it's
>> fairly common for colleges to have what I think is an equally stupid
>> requirement: requiring all students to take a second language.
>
> The usefulness of a foreign language is debatable. Some argue
> it's a waste of time. But others argue (as some suggest
> for calculus), that it inspires thinking, helps with English,
> and is the mark of an educated person.
>
> Personally, I'm not sure I agree with that. Just because I
> can understand some French phrases mentioned on TV I don't
> think means all that much.
>
> However: we are living in a smaller and smaller integrated
> global world, much more so than when most of got out of school.
> I can't help but wonder if knowing a foreign language today
> will have practical benefits on the job...
>
> 1) Spanish--there are increasing numbers of Spanish speakers
> in the U.S. Knowing their language may mean reaching more
> customers and thus more revenue.
>
Maybe in the short term. Studies show that by the second generation most
speak mainly English.
> 2) Asian languages--we do an enormous amount of trade with China
> and other Pacific countries. It may be useful, even a necessity,
> to know Chinese, Japanese, Korean, or some other language.
Possibly more likely.
--
Pete
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| Re: 1965 Remington Rand tracking your kid [message #383212 is a reply to message #383202] |
Fri, 19 April 2019 19:43 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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<hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 17, 2019 at 8:01:11 PM UTC-4, Peter Flass wrote:
>
>> That may be, but weren’t we talking about the 60s? I don’t know whether
>> the 1130 had BASIC, but that would have been a good choice. I know it had
>> an interpreted student version of PL/I, but I’m still looking for a copy
>> (plug)
>
> Our 1130 had a timesharing BASIC in the late 1960s, but it was
> awfully slow. Developed by an independent vendor, I think. We
> subsequent replaced the 1130 with an HP-2000 which was a far
> superior machine for timesharing.
>
> I still wish I had some exposure to someone who did useful work
> on an 1130 and wasn't bothered by its horribly slow I/O. As
> mentioned, if were able to load it up with data and get the
> CPU running, it could do reasonably well, but getting data in
> and out was horrendous.
>
Define useful. We did a lot of development work on one, and it was
adequate, if slow. I remember being amazed watching a 2501 card reader on a
360/20.
--
Pete
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| Re: 1965 Remington Rand tracking your kid [message #383213 is a reply to message #383207] |
Fri, 19 April 2019 19:43 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>
> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
>
>> The usefulness of a foreign language is debatable. Some argue
>> it's a waste of time. But others argue (as some suggest
>> for calculus), that it inspires thinking, helps with English,
>> and is the mark of an educated person.
>>
>> Personally, I'm not sure I agree with that. Just because I
>> can understand some French phrases mentioned on TV I don't
>> think means all that much.
>
> In high school (which required 2 years of a 2nd language) I opted for
> German because it was alleged that it was "the language of science."
> In general, that proved to have been a notion left over from decades
> before my time but when I stated working in science, it happened that
> the single most comprehensive and up to date book on my work subject
> was in German -- Biochemie des Hoerorgans.
>
> My career in science only lasted a year but in a few years I had
> embarked on what turned out to be somthing of a life-long vocation and
> whaddya know? It was in Germany that the skills and traditions of
> blacksmithing as an art form [1] had best survived between
> industrialization of ironworking after Bessemer and the revival in
> Leftpondia in the 70s.
>
> And being able to read der Spiegel (when I can get to a shop that
> stocks it) gives me another take on the news.
That’s why I got back into German about the late 1980s. I wondered what the
German view of the world was at the time of reunification. I’m still not
very proficient. I can watch a German TV show and get somewhere between 40
and maybe 75%.
--
Pete
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| Re: 1965 Remington Rand tracking your kid [message #383219 is a reply to message #383208] |
Fri, 19 April 2019 22:24 |
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Originally posted by: J. Clarke
On Fri, 19 Apr 2019 16:35:12 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
<jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> On Friday, April 19, 2019 at 3:58:06 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:
>> To the mathematician the most
>> important thing for a student to know about calculus is how to prove
>> the Fundamental Theorem, and not how to actually use it to perform
>> calculations.
>
> In that case, it is possible to make a lot of mathematicians happy.
>
> I think you could use a felt board to teach the Fundamental Theorem of Calculus
> to first-grade students.
>
> It could be explained in terms of how fast little Tommy is using up his paint as
> he paints a fence with fenceposts of different heights.
It would be interesting to see you present the proof in those terms.
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| Re: 1965 Remington Rand tracking your kid [message #383220 is a reply to message #383211] |
Fri, 19 April 2019 22:31 |
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Originally posted by: J. Clarke
On Fri, 19 Apr 2019 16:43:32 -0700, Peter Flass
<peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>> On Wednesday, April 17, 2019 at 1:43:24 PM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, April 16, 2019 at 4:19:06 PM UTC-6, hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> Many colleges required some form of calculus, sometimes the real
>>>> industrial strength version, sometimes a watered down version
>>>> for all students. Likewise, many required Fortran for all
>>>> students. Both mandates were stupid.
>>>
>>> Oh, I agree.
>>>
>>> But in some countries, or, in Canada, in some provinces (but not others), it's
>>> fairly common for colleges to have what I think is an equally stupid
>>> requirement: requiring all students to take a second language.
>>
>> The usefulness of a foreign language is debatable. Some argue
>> it's a waste of time. But others argue (as some suggest
>> for calculus), that it inspires thinking, helps with English,
>> and is the mark of an educated person.
>>
>> Personally, I'm not sure I agree with that. Just because I
>> can understand some French phrases mentioned on TV I don't
>> think means all that much.
>>
>> However: we are living in a smaller and smaller integrated
>> global world, much more so than when most of got out of school.
>> I can't help but wonder if knowing a foreign language today
>> will have practical benefits on the job...
>>
>> 1) Spanish--there are increasing numbers of Spanish speakers
>> in the U.S. Knowing their language may mean reaching more
>> customers and thus more revenue.
>>
>
> Maybe in the short term. Studies show that by the second generation most
> speak mainly English.
>
>> 2) Asian languages--we do an enormous amount of trade with China
>> and other Pacific countries. It may be useful, even a necessity,
>> to know Chinese, Japanese, Korean, or some other language.
>
> Possibly more likely.
I suspect that Hindi or whatever the name of the language spoken in
India is could be beneficial just so you can explain to the help desk
what's wrong with the computer that your employer provided you.
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| Re: 1965 Remington Rand tracking your kid [message #383221 is a reply to message #383220] |
Fri, 19 April 2019 23:53 |
John Levine
Messages: 1405
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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In article <lq0lbet1oe83a9f7vuoira8svh2fei6m1q@4ax.com> you write:
>>> 2) Asian languages--we do an enormous amount of trade with China
>>> and other Pacific countries. It may be useful, even a necessity,
>>> to know Chinese, Japanese, Korean, or some other language.
>>
>> Possibly more likely.
>
> I suspect that Hindi or whatever the name of the language spoken in
> India is could be beneficial just so you can explain to the help desk
> what's wrong with the computer that your employer provided you.
In India they speak at least a dozen languages, which is why the
de-facto national language is English. If I were learning a language
it'd be Mandarin (spoken by a majority of Chinese, and the written
form is the same for most of the other Chinese languages) or Japanese.
--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
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| Re: 1965 Remington Rand tracking your kid [message #383223 is a reply to message #383221] |
Sat, 20 April 2019 00:32 |
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Originally posted by: J. Clarke
On Sat, 20 Apr 2019 03:53:53 -0000 (UTC), John Levine
<johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
> In article <lq0lbet1oe83a9f7vuoira8svh2fei6m1q@4ax.com> you write:
>>>> 2) Asian languages--we do an enormous amount of trade with China
>>>> and other Pacific countries. It may be useful, even a necessity,
>>>> to know Chinese, Japanese, Korean, or some other language.
>>>
>>> Possibly more likely.
>>
>> I suspect that Hindi or whatever the name of the language spoken in
>> India is could be beneficial just so you can explain to the help desk
>> what's wrong with the computer that your employer provided you.
>
> In India they speak at least a dozen languages, which is why the
> de-facto national language is English. If I were learning a language
> it'd be Mandarin (spoken by a majority of Chinese, and the written
> form is the same for most of the other Chinese languages) or Japanese.
If the national language in India is English, why do so many of them
speak it so poorly?
For entertainment reasons I would learn Japanese, but the average
American does not have to deal with the Chinese on a daily basis. Many
of us do have to deal with people in India on a daily basis.
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| Re: 1965 Remington Rand tracking your kid [message #383224 is a reply to message #383223] |
Sat, 20 April 2019 01:15 |
Quadibloc
Messages: 4399
Registered: June 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Friday, April 19, 2019 at 10:32:50 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Sat, 20 Apr 2019 03:53:53 -0000 (UTC), John Levine
> <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
>> In India they speak at least a dozen languages, which is why the
>> de-facto national language is English.
> If the national language in India is English, why do so many of them
> speak it so poorly?
India has _two_ official national languages, English and Hindi. The languages
of the people living in the north of India, like Bengali and Urdu, are
closely related to Sanskrit, and thus the people in that part of India
generally learn to speak Hindi.
In the south of India, though, the people speak languages like Tamil and
Malayalam, which are not related to Sanskrit. Therefore, as Hindi is hard for
them to learn, they prefer to learn English, due to the economic
opportunities it provides.
Every so often, a politician from the north of India proposes that India
should do away with having English as an official language. Sometimes these
proposals get far enough that they lead to "language riots" in the south of
India.
John Savard
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| Re: 1965 Remington Rand tracking your kid [message #383225 is a reply to message #383224] |
Sat, 20 April 2019 02:03 |
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Originally posted by: J. Clarke
On Fri, 19 Apr 2019 22:15:47 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
<jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> On Friday, April 19, 2019 at 10:32:50 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Sat, 20 Apr 2019 03:53:53 -0000 (UTC), John Levine
>> <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
>
>>> In India they speak at least a dozen languages, which is why the
>>> de-facto national language is English.
>
>> If the national language in India is English, why do so many of them
>> speak it so poorly?
>
> India has _two_ official national languages, English and Hindi. The languages
> of the people living in the north of India, like Bengali and Urdu, are
> closely related to Sanskrit, and thus the people in that part of India
> generally learn to speak Hindi.
>
> In the south of India, though, the people speak languages like Tamil and
> Malayalam, which are not related to Sanskrit. Therefore, as Hindi is hard for
> them to learn, they prefer to learn English, due to the economic
> opportunities it provides.
>
> Every so often, a politician from the north of India proposes that India
> should do away with having English as an official language. Sometimes these
> proposals get far enough that they lead to "language riots" in the south of
> India.
I will have to inquire at the next meeting at work and see what the
native languages of the several people from India I work with are. My
impression is that they are mostly in or from Mumbai, so perhaps
Marathi?
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| Re: 1965 Remington Rand tracking your kid [message #383227 is a reply to message #383200] |
Sat, 20 April 2019 05:08 |
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Originally posted by: Gareth's was W7 now W10 Downstairs Computer
On 19/04/2019 22:37, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 17, 2019 at 3:08:06 PM UTC-4, Mike Spencer wrote:
>
>
>> The justification for recommending or requiring calculus for those
>> unlikely to employ it vocationally is, AFAICT, that it introduces one
>> to a new variety of analytical & critical thinking. I agree with this
>> motivation.
>
> I must respectfully disagree. In my opinion, calculus is just
> too technical and not inspiration in introducing a new way of
> critical thinking.
My first introduction to The Calculus was in the 3rd year (now year 10?)
at Nailsea Grammar school, so that by the time that maths 'A' level came
along, we were very comfortable with the concepts.
Says something about the quality of the Brit grammar school system, long
destroyed by politicians seeking to dumb every body down to the lowest
common denominator.
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| Re: 1965 Remington Rand tracking your kid [message #383231 is a reply to message #383201] |
Sat, 20 April 2019 09:22 |
scott
Messages: 4237
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:
> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
>
>>
>> 2) Asian languages--we do an enormous amount of trade with China
>> and other Pacific countries. It may be useful, even a necessity,
>> to know Chinese, Japanese, Korean, or some other language.
>>
>> I am amazed at many young people I know who graduate college
>> and go off to China or Japan.
>
> That's great.
>
> I imagine there is a big demand for English teachers in China and
> Japan.
My High School German teacher (Herr Preston) had just returned from
a stint teaching German in Japan. He wasn't impressed by the
quality of American high schools in comparison (when I ran into him
a decade later, he lamented that the schools were even worse than
when I had been his student :-)
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| Re: 1965 Remington Rand tracking your kid [message #383233 is a reply to message #383223] |
Sat, 20 April 2019 09:24 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 20 Apr 2019 03:53:53 -0000 (UTC), John Levine
> <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
>
>> In article <lq0lbet1oe83a9f7vuoira8svh2fei6m1q@4ax.com> you write:
>>>> > 2) Asian languages--we do an enormous amount of trade with China
>>>> > and other Pacific countries. It may be useful, even a necessity,
>>>> > to know Chinese, Japanese, Korean, or some other language.
>>>>
>>>> Possibly more likely.
>>>
>>> I suspect that Hindi or whatever the name of the language spoken in
>>> India is could be beneficial just so you can explain to the help desk
>>> what's wrong with the computer that your employer provided you.
>>
>> In India they speak at least a dozen languages, which is why the
>> de-facto national language is English. If I were learning a language
>> it'd be Mandarin (spoken by a majority of Chinese, and the written
>> form is the same for most of the other Chinese languages) or Japanese.
>
> If the national language in India is English, why do so many of them
> speak it so poorly?
It’s one of their national languages. The people speak many regional
languages at home. Hindi was supposed to be their only national language,
but inter-ethnic rivalries kept English also.
>
> For entertainment reasons I would learn Japanese, but the average
> American does not have to deal with the Chinese on a daily basis. Many
> of us do have to deal with people in India on a daily basis.
>
--
Pete
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| Re: 1965 Remington Rand tracking your kid [message #383234 is a reply to message #383233] |
Sat, 20 April 2019 10:21 |
Quadibloc
Messages: 4399
Registered: June 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Saturday, April 20, 2019 at 7:24:26 AM UTC-6, Peter Flass wrote:
> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>> If the national language in India is English, why do so many of them
>> speak it so poorly?
> It’s one of their national languages. The people speak many regional
> languages at home. Hindi was supposed to be their only national language,
> but inter-ethnic rivalries kept English also.
I'm not happy with that last phrase. The speakers of Dravidian languages in
the south are the ones that primarily want to keep English as an official
language of India. But they're not doing so out of "inter-ethnic rivalry".
They're doing so out of rational self-interest: English is a valuable world
language, and, because the languages they speak at home aren't sister
languages of Hindi, learning it would be a lot of work.
Instead, it's Hindu nationalists who try to abolish English as an official
language in India who are acting out of bigotry and spite, at least in my
opinion. The end result would be to impose a burden on Dravidian speakers
basically in order to force them to acknowledge Aryan hegemony.
Really, the correct approach would be for India to recognize all the
regional languages as official, so that speakers of Punjabi or Malayalam
would have full access to all educational services, including those at the
post-secondary level, in their own language. Those few who wish to engage
in activities that require a second language can voluntarily learn one.
That way, the people of India, of every language group, would enjoy
equality with native speakers of English living in the United States.
Learning a second language is hard work, involving lots of rote
memorization. It is precisely the sort of thing calculated to kill the
enthusiasm of young students for learning. So if you want students to have
a high level of enthusiasm, so that the schools will produce as many
scientists and engineers as possible, languages should be kept away from
the schools for the most part.
John Savard
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| Re: 1965 Remington Rand tracking your kid [message #383235 is a reply to message #383234] |
Sat, 20 April 2019 10:35 |
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Originally posted by: J. Clarke
On Sat, 20 Apr 2019 07:21:29 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
<jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> On Saturday, April 20, 2019 at 7:24:26 AM UTC-6, Peter Flass wrote:
>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> If the national language in India is English, why do so many of them
>>> speak it so poorly?
>
>> Its one of their national languages. The people speak many regional
>> languages at home. Hindi was supposed to be their only national language,
>> but inter-ethnic rivalries kept English also.
>
> I'm not happy with that last phrase. The speakers of Dravidian languages in
> the south are the ones that primarily want to keep English as an official
> language of India. But they're not doing so out of "inter-ethnic rivalry".
> They're doing so out of rational self-interest: English is a valuable world
> language, and, because the languages they speak at home aren't sister
> languages of Hindi, learning it would be a lot of work.
>
> Instead, it's Hindu nationalists who try to abolish English as an official
> language in India who are acting out of bigotry and spite, at least in my
> opinion. The end result would be to impose a burden on Dravidian speakers
> basically in order to force them to acknowledge Aryan hegemony.
>
> Really, the correct approach would be for India to recognize all the
> regional languages as official, so that speakers of Punjabi or Malayalam
> would have full access to all educational services, including those at the
> post-secondary level, in their own language. Those few who wish to engage
> in activities that require a second language can voluntarily learn one.
>
> That way, the people of India, of every language group, would enjoy
> equality with native speakers of English living in the United States.
>
> Learning a second language is hard work, involving lots of rote
> memorization. It is precisely the sort of thing calculated to kill the
> enthusiasm of young students for learning. So if you want students to have
> a high level of enthusiasm, so that the schools will produce as many
> scientists and engineers as possible, languages should be kept away from
> the schools for the most part.
<rolls eyes>
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| Re: 1965 Remington Rand tracking your kid [message #383248 is a reply to message #383207] |
Sat, 20 April 2019 14:15 |
hancock4
Messages: 6746
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Friday, April 19, 2019 at 7:22:27 PM UTC-4, Mike Spencer wrote:
>> I am amazed at many young people I know who graduate college
>> and go off to China or Japan.
>
> Now that you mention it, yes, same.
Vietnam, too. Which amazes me since that was the last
place most of our generation* wanted to end up, now
the youth go there for opportunity.
* I knew one guy who volunteered. He regretted his decision
not long after; hated the military.
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| Re: 1965 Remington Rand tracking your kid [message #383249 is a reply to message #383212] |
Sat, 20 April 2019 14:21 |
hancock4
Messages: 6746
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Friday, April 19, 2019 at 7:43:35 PM UTC-4, Peter Flass wrote:
>> I still wish I had some exposure to someone who did useful work
>> on an 1130 and wasn't bothered by its horribly slow I/O. As
>> mentioned, if were able to load it up with data and get the
>> CPU running, it could do reasonably well, but getting data in
>> and out was horrendous.
>>
>
> Define useful. We did a lot of development work on one, and it was
> adequate, if slow. I remember being amazed watching a 2501 card reader on a
> 360/20.
Well, I must admit I worded that poorly. Obviously, lots of
customers found the 1130 useful since it had good sales. I
presume its main attraction was that it was significantly
cheaper than anything else out there when it came out. So,
for a group of engineers/scientists, slow as it was, it still
beat using hand calculators.
I'm guessing a relatively small group would prefer their
own dedicated machine to use as they saw fit as opposed to
submitting batch jobs and waiting for turnaround on a larger
but shared S/360.
But, personally, I found it very frustrating to use being so slow.
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| Re: 1965 Remington Rand tracking your kid [message #383250 is a reply to message #383221] |
Sat, 20 April 2019 14:25 |
hancock4
Messages: 6746
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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>> I suspect that Hindi or whatever the name of the language spoken in
>> India is could be beneficial just so you can explain to the help desk
>> what's wrong with the computer that your employer provided you.
People in India (presumably) at help or customer service desks
have no trouble with the language.
The problem is that they are locked into their computer screen
with canned answers. They aren't really employees of the business
and as such can't really supply any intelligence, only what the
screen tells them to say.
Further, companies now do everything they can to block access to
a human. They expect you to speak your problem to a computer,
which of course doesn't understand. It's a joke on TV, but not
in real life. All the time I hear my co-workers shouting into
the phone at the bank's computer and getting nowhere.
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| Re: 1965 Remington Rand tracking your kid [message #383255 is a reply to message #383234] |
Sat, 20 April 2019 14:50 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
> Learning a second language is hard work, involving lots of rote
> memorization. It is precisely the sort of thing calculated to kill the
> enthusiasm of young students for learning. So if you want students to have
> a high level of enthusiasm, so that the schools will produce as many
> scientists and engineers as possible, languages should be kept away from
> the schools for the most part.
If people start young I’m told it’s relatively painless.
--
Pete
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| Re: 1965 Remington Rand tracking your kid [message #383256 is a reply to message #383250] |
Sat, 20 April 2019 14:50 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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<hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>
>>> I suspect that Hindi or whatever the name of the language spoken in
>>> India is could be beneficial just so you can explain to the help desk
>>> what's wrong with the computer that your employer provided you.
>
> People in India (presumably) at help or customer service desks
> have no trouble with the language.
FSVO “no problem.” Sometimes I just want to scream “why can’t I talk to
someone who speaks English?”
>
> The problem is that they are locked into their computer screen
> with canned answers. They aren't really employees of the business
> and as such can't really supply any intelligence, only what the
> screen tells them to say.
>
> Further, companies now do everything they can to block access to
> a human. They expect you to speak your problem to a computer,
> which of course doesn't understand. It's a joke on TV, but not
> in real life. All the time I hear my co-workers shouting into
> the phone at the bank's computer and getting nowhere.
>
:-)
--
Pete
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| Re: 1965 Remington Rand tracking your kid [message #383262 is a reply to message #383249] |
Sat, 20 April 2019 17:40 |
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Originally posted by: J. Clarke
On Sat, 20 Apr 2019 11:21:59 -0700 (PDT), hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> On Friday, April 19, 2019 at 7:43:35 PM UTC-4, Peter Flass wrote:
>
>>> I still wish I had some exposure to someone who did useful work
>>> on an 1130 and wasn't bothered by its horribly slow I/O. As
>>> mentioned, if were able to load it up with data and get the
>>> CPU running, it could do reasonably well, but getting data in
>>> and out was horrendous.
>>>
>>
>> Define useful. We did a lot of development work on one, and it was
>> adequate, if slow. I remember being amazed watching a 2501 card reader on a
>> 360/20.
>
> Well, I must admit I worded that poorly. Obviously, lots of
> customers found the 1130 useful since it had good sales. I
> presume its main attraction was that it was significantly
> cheaper than anything else out there when it came out. So,
> for a group of engineers/scientists, slow as it was, it still
> beat using hand calculators.
>
> I'm guessing a relatively small group would prefer their
> own dedicated machine to use as they saw fit as opposed to
> submitting batch jobs and waiting for turnaround on a larger
> but shared S/360.
>
> But, personally, I found it very frustrating to use being so slow.
Or the 360 could be used in multiuser interactive mode. Which is what
APL/360 provided.
>
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