| Disk Imaging [message #380129] |
Sat, 26 January 2019 04:58  |
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Originally posted by: Anthony Adverse
Ok last question for today. Imaging some of CloneE's goodies isn't exactly going to plan, its a mix of DOS3.3 and ProDOS disks. I don't have anything special to do it with, so it's got to be Shrinkit Disk images or similar.
Whats our preferred method of attack here?
A
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| Re: Disk Imaging [message #380139 is a reply to message #380129] |
Sat, 26 January 2019 13:32  |
gids.rs
Messages: 1395
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Saturday, January 26, 2019 at 3:58:16 AM UTC-6, Anthony Adverse wrote:
> Ok last question for today. Imaging some of CloneE's goodies isn't exactly going to plan, its a mix of DOS3.3 and ProDOS disks. I don't have anything special to do it with, so it's got to be Shrinkit Disk images or similar.
>
> Whats our preferred method of attack here?
>
> A
You are not very clear on what you want to do here.
But my guess is the goal is to transfer disk images to modern computer to upload to internet?
Either ShrinkIt (but creates an extra step for end users) or .DSK images are fine (most popular method since majority of emulators recognize this format) can be used.
Transferring data from Apple computer to modern computer is the hardest for most ppls as it requires special hardware.
The CFFA3000 is the most popular card as it uses flash cards that can then be plugged into modern computer for data transfer and still might be available.
The Microdrive and other CFFA cards offer the same choice but may only be available on eBay.
If all else fails, you could always list your programs on the clone and type them into a text file on the modern computer. It is very easy for emulator users to copy/paste text into an emulator and text files make good backups.
Another unorthodox method might be to list your programs on the Apple monitor and take pictures with cel phone and run the pictures through character recognition software.
And lastly there are some who will offer to make the disk images for you if you mail them your disks.
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| Re: Disk Imaging [message #380161 is a reply to message #380129] |
Sat, 26 January 2019 17:33 |
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Originally posted by: Anthony Adverse
On Saturday, January 26, 2019 at 8:58:16 PM UTC+11, Anthony Adverse wrote:
> Ok last question for today. Imaging some of CloneE's goodies isn't exactly going to plan, its a mix of DOS3.3 and ProDOS disks. I don't have anything special to do it with, so it's got to be Shrinkit Disk images or similar.
>
> Whats our preferred method of attack here?
>
> A
Sorry guys I thought it was clearer than that. I need to create images of a mix of DOS3.3 & ProDOS floppies. While I have shrinkit, and an appropriate drive. I don't have any specialised hardware for the task like some of these new fangled things, like your Apple Sauce.
However it still looks like Shrinkit images are still the go. What made me ask was shrinkit disk images don't seem to mount in my Floppy emu. The other alternative which is probably a blast right out of the past is Copy ][+ images.
A
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| Re: Disk Imaging [message #380163 is a reply to message #380161] |
Sat, 26 January 2019 18:09 |
Steve Nickolas
Messages: 2036
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Sat, 26 Jan 2019, Anthony Adverse wrote:
> On Saturday, January 26, 2019 at 8:58:16 PM UTC+11, Anthony Adverse wrote:
>> Ok last question for today. Imaging some of CloneE's goodies isn't exactly going to plan, its a mix of DOS3.3 and ProDOS disks. I don't have anything special to do it with, so it's got to be Shrinkit Disk images or similar.
>>
>> Whats our preferred method of attack here?
>>
>> A
>
> Sorry guys I thought it was clearer than that. I need to create images of a mix of DOS3.3 & ProDOS floppies. While I have shrinkit, and an appropriate drive. I don't have any specialised hardware for the task like some of these new fangled things, like your Apple Sauce.
>
> However it still looks like Shrinkit images are still the go. What made me ask was shrinkit disk images don't seem to mount in my Floppy emu. The other alternative which is probably a blast right out of the past is Copy ][+ images.
>
> A
>
Decompress SDK to DSK with Ciderpress?
-uso.
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| Re: Disk Imaging [message #380165 is a reply to message #380163] |
Sat, 26 January 2019 18:54 |
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Originally posted by: Anthony Adverse
>
> Decompress SDK to DSK with Ciderpress?
>
> -uso.
I certainly have Ciderpress here.. have to say its a bit of a beast to drive, and I haven't had much joy in that department. I'll have another look.
A
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| Re: Disk Imaging [message #380203 is a reply to message #380165] |
Sun, 27 January 2019 11:51 |
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Originally posted by: Anthony Adverse
On Sunday, January 27, 2019 at 10:54:55 AM UTC+11, Anthony Adverse wrote:
>>
>> Decompress SDK to DSK with Ciderpress?
>>
>> -uso.
>
> I certainly have Ciderpress here.. have to say its a bit of a beast to drive, and I haven't had much joy in that department. I'll have another look.
>
> A
Ok so now we're looking at CP again... whats the preferred image format? SDK doesn't appear to be an option for the conversion, I have, .po, .do, .nib, .2mg
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| Re: Disk Imaging [message #380212 is a reply to message #380203] |
Sun, 27 January 2019 13:37 |
gids.rs
Messages: 1395
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Sunday, January 27, 2019 at 10:51:52 AM UTC-6, Anthony Adverse wrote:
> On Sunday, January 27, 2019 at 10:54:55 AM UTC+11, Anthony Adverse wrote:
>>>
>>> Decompress SDK to DSK with Ciderpress?
>>>
>>> -uso.
>>
>> I certainly have Ciderpress here.. have to say its a bit of a beast to drive, and I haven't had much joy in that department. I'll have another look.
>>
>> A
>
> Ok so now we're looking at CP again... whats the preferred image format? SDK doesn't appear to be an option for the conversion, I have, .po, .do, .nib, .2mg
I believe the standard that most go by is this
..dsk - 140kb floppy disks in either Dos or Prodos order
..po - 800 kb floppy Prodos only, not UniDos
..2mg - hard drive volumes >800 kb
..nib - protected 140 kb disks with a non-standard dos
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| Re: Disk Imaging [message #380219 is a reply to message #380212] |
Sun, 27 January 2019 16:15 |
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Originally posted by: kegs
In article <713e4f74-3501-43bf-9d3b-d0e6e29a54c3@googlegroups.com>,
I am Rob <gids.rs@sasktel.net> wrote:
> On Sunday, January 27, 2019 at 10:51:52 AM UTC-6, Anthony Adverse wrote:
>> Ok so now we're looking at CP again... whats the preferred image
> format? SDK doesn't appear to be an option for the conversion, I have,
> .po, .do, .nib, .2mg
>
>
> I believe the standard that most go by is this
>
> .dsk - 140kb floppy disks in either Dos or Prodos order
> .po - 800 kb floppy Prodos only, not UniDos
> .2mg - hard drive volumes >800 kb
> .nib - protected 140 kb disks with a non-standard dos
Please do not create .dsk images in ProDOS order.
Both .dsk and .po are for images that are exactly 143,360 bytes, where .dsk
means DOS 3.3 order, and .po means ProDOS order. Some emulators support .po
of any size, too, for hard drive images.
It is not easy for an emulator to guess the sector order of a file of
143,360 bytes, so the extension is useful for this.
Kent
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| Re: Disk Imaging [message #380228 is a reply to message #380219] |
Sun, 27 January 2019 20:21 |
gids.rs
Messages: 1395
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Sunday, January 27, 2019 at 3:15:52 PM UTC-6, Kent Dickey wrote:
> In article <713e4f74-3501-43bf-9d3b-d0e6e29a54c3@googlegroups.com>,
> I am Rob <Rob> wrote:
>> On Sunday, January 27, 2019 at 10:51:52 AM UTC-6, Anthony Adverse wrote:
>>> Ok so now we're looking at CP again... whats the preferred image
>> format? SDK doesn't appear to be an option for the conversion, I have,
>> .po, .do, .nib, .2mg
>>
>>
>> I believe the standard that most go by is this
>>
>> .dsk - 140kb floppy disks in either Dos or Prodos order
>> .po - 800 kb floppy Prodos only, not UniDos
>> .2mg - hard drive volumes >800 kb
>> .nib - protected 140 kb disks with a non-standard dos
>
> Please do not create .dsk images in ProDOS order.
..dsk is not a standard for DOS either, so please don't advise others as such. There is .do for that. Also .dsk can be changed to .do or .po according to the disk format, but fair warning, there are also certain emulators that recognize a Prodos disk with the suffix of .dsk but are in DOS order.
>
> Both .dsk and .po are for images that are exactly 143,360 bytes, where .dsk
> means DOS 3.3 order, and .po means ProDOS order. Some emulators support ..po
> of any size, too, for hard drive images.
Again, please don't advise people of this as fact. Just because you may use one type of emulator that supports this method can mess it up for some who use other emulators. The emulator I use only recognizes 800kb .po images
> It is not easy for an emulator to guess the sector order of a file of
> 143,360 bytes, so the extension is useful for this.
Emulators should not use .dsk as an identification that the image is exactly 143360, as this could lead to future problems.
I am actually surprised that no emulator writers have included support for a 40 track floppy that can hold 163480 bytes. These disk images could also end up having a .dsk extension.
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| Re: Disk Imaging [message #380231 is a reply to message #380228] |
Sun, 27 January 2019 22:05 |
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Originally posted by: kegs
In article <dfd65df2-ee7b-4c9b-8660-b1c3f36c7151@googlegroups.com>,
I am Rob <gids.rs@sasktel.net> wrote:
> On Sunday, January 27, 2019 at 3:15:52 PM UTC-6, Kent Dickey wrote:
>> In article <713e4f74-3501-43bf-9d3b-d0e6e29a54c3@googlegroups.com>,
>> I am Rob <Rob> wrote:
>>> On Sunday, January 27, 2019 at 10:51:52 AM UTC-6, Anthony Adverse wrote:
>>>> Ok so now we're looking at CP again... whats the preferred image
>>> format? SDK doesn't appear to be an option for the conversion, I have,
>>> .po, .do, .nib, .2mg
>>>
>>>
>>> I believe the standard that most go by is this
>>>
>>> .dsk - 140kb floppy disks in either Dos or Prodos order
>>> .po - 800 kb floppy Prodos only, not UniDos
>>> .2mg - hard drive volumes >800 kb
>>> .nib - protected 140 kb disks with a non-standard dos
>>
>> Please do not create .dsk images in ProDOS order.
>
> .dsk is not a standard for DOS either, so please don't advise others as
> such. There is .do for that. Also .dsk can be changed to .do or .po
> according to the disk format, but fair warning, there are also certain
> emulators that recognize a Prodos disk with the suffix of .dsk but are
> in DOS order.
I disagree with the paragraph above, but this should not be debated in this
thread.
KEGS has a simple strategy for disk images for the 5.25" drive:
- If the file content starts with "2IMG", it's a 2mg image, and it tells
us the sector order in the header. The extension is ignored since
it's unnecessary.
- Otherwise, if the extension is ".po", it's in ProDOS block order.
- Otherwise, if it's ".nib", it's the old nibble copy format
- Otherwise, it's in DOS3.3 sector order, and only the first 143,360 bytes
will be used.
Kent
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| Re: Disk Imaging [message #380232 is a reply to message #380231] |
Sun, 27 January 2019 23:38 |
Steve Nickolas
Messages: 2036
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Sun, 27 Jan 2019, Kent Dickey wrote:
> In article <dfd65df2-ee7b-4c9b-8660-b1c3f36c7151@googlegroups.com>,
> I am Rob <gids.rs@sasktel.net> wrote:
>> On Sunday, January 27, 2019 at 3:15:52 PM UTC-6, Kent Dickey wrote:
>>> In article <713e4f74-3501-43bf-9d3b-d0e6e29a54c3@googlegroups.com>,
>>> I am Rob <Rob> wrote:
>>>> On Sunday, January 27, 2019 at 10:51:52 AM UTC-6, Anthony Adverse wrote:
>>>> > Ok so now we're looking at CP again... whats the preferred image
>>>> format? SDK doesn't appear to be an option for the conversion, I have,
>>>> .po, .do, .nib, .2mg
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I believe the standard that most go by is this
>>>>
>>>> .dsk - 140kb floppy disks in either Dos or Prodos order
>>>> .po - 800 kb floppy Prodos only, not UniDos
>>>> .2mg - hard drive volumes >800 kb
>>>> .nib - protected 140 kb disks with a non-standard dos
>>>
>>> Please do not create .dsk images in ProDOS order.
>>
>> .dsk is not a standard for DOS either, so please don't advise others as
>> such. There is .do for that. Also .dsk can be changed to .do or .po
>> according to the disk format, but fair warning, there are also certain
>> emulators that recognize a Prodos disk with the suffix of .dsk but are
>> in DOS order.
>
> I disagree with the paragraph above, but this should not be debated in this
> thread.
>
> KEGS has a simple strategy for disk images for the 5.25" drive:
> - If the file content starts with "2IMG", it's a 2mg image, and it tells
> us the sector order in the header. The extension is ignored since
> it's unnecessary.
> - Otherwise, if the extension is ".po", it's in ProDOS block order.
> - Otherwise, if it's ".nib", it's the old nibble copy format
> - Otherwise, it's in DOS3.3 sector order, and only the first 143,360 bytes
> will be used.
>
> Kent
>
In my own emulators I used the following strategy:
1. If the file is 143360, it's DO, but in most of my emulators, this can
be overridden (like in ApplePC).
2. If the file is 143390, it's the SimSystem format. My emulators usually
assumed these to be PO because dsk2iie always converted them that way so
all the image files I had were PO.
3. If the file is 143424, it's 2IMG. Again I based it on what the
commonly available conversion utility of the time did.
4. If the file is any other size, it's treated as DO if it's *less* than
140K and NIB if greater.
This was a fancier version of what ApplePC did.
-uso.
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| Re: Disk Imaging [message #380247 is a reply to message #380226] |
Mon, 28 January 2019 10:51 |
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Originally posted by: fadden
On Sunday, January 27, 2019 at 3:51:49 PM UTC-8, Anthony Adverse wrote:
> I think I'll just leave them is .sdk's then. None of the above stuff means to much to me. And as I said dsk doesn't appear to be choosable for whatever reason.
If you're curious: in CiderPress, hit F1 for help, select the Contents tab, click the Appendix tree, and select "About Disk Images". This tells you a bit about the various formats CiderPress supports. Also, if you click "Help" in the Disk Image Converter dialog, the help text makes some image format recommendations (for 140K floppy images, ".do" is recommended).
The disk image converter doesn't create 140K images called ".dsk" for the same reason this thread is so long: ".dsk" doesn't mean the same thing to every emulator or tool. ".do" and ".po" identify the format, but ".dsk" has been used for both. (The only use of ".dsk" supported by the image converter is for the DiskCopy format that originated on the Mac, but that's only for 800K disks, and is not widely supported by emulators AFAIK.)
The 2IMG format was supposed to fix all the ambiguity, but it's not quite as universally supported as one might hope.
Most 140K images that are named ".dsk" are actually ".do". CiderPress is very good at resolving ambiguity, but tries to avoid making things worse. :-)
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| Re: Disk Imaging [message #380248 is a reply to message #380232] |
Mon, 28 January 2019 10:55 |
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Originally posted by: fadden
On Sunday, January 27, 2019 at 8:38:28 PM UTC-8, Steve Nickolas wrote:
> 3. If the file is 143424, it's 2IMG. Again I based it on what the
> commonly available conversion utility of the time did.
Be aware that 2IMG has a variable-length comment field, so a simple length test may fail to recognize some images.
http://nulib.com/library/2img-type-note.md
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| Re: Disk Imaging [message #380251 is a reply to message #380232] |
Mon, 28 January 2019 11:20 |
Jeff Blakeney
Messages: 125
Registered: September 2013
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2019-01-27 11:38 p.m., Steve Nickolas wrote:
> In my own emulators I used the following strategy:
>
> 1. If the file is 143360, it's DO, but in most of my emulators, this can
> be overridden (like in ApplePC).
>
> 2. If the file is 143390, it's the SimSystem format. My emulators
> usually assumed these to be PO because dsk2iie always converted them
> that way so all the image files I had were PO.
>
> 3. If the file is 143424, it's 2IMG. Again I based it on what the
> commonly available conversion utility of the time did.
>
> 4. If the file is any other size, it's treated as DO if it's *less* than
> 140K and NIB if greater.
>
> This was a fancier version of what ApplePC did.
Many years ago I was writing some disk image utilities for Windows and
what my program did was mostly used the extension to determine the
sector/block order. This only worked for .do and .po images. I used
the file size to determine the number of sectors/blocks with those file
types.
For files with .2mg/.2img extensions, I used the information in the
header to determine order and number of sectors/blocks.
For .dsk files, I looked in the first block (512 bytes) for text
strings. ProDOS block 0 contains both the string "PRODOS" and "UNABLE
TO LOAD PRODOS". However, they are in the second half of the block so
if the disk image was in ProDOS order and formatted as a ProDOS disk I
was all set. If I didn't find it, I would have to check where a DOS
order disk would store the appropriate sector (don't remember where now)
to make sure they didn't create a disk image of a ProDOS formatted disk
in DOS order.
Never got to the point of adding support for other formats like the
SimSystem, .hdv or .nib.
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