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Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378261 is a reply to message #378254] Sat, 15 December 2018 15:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hancock4 is currently offline  hancock4
Messages: 6746
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Saturday, December 15, 2018 at 2:29:52 PM UTC-5, Dan Espen wrote:

>> Democracy requires a certain minimum intelligence among the populace
>> to enable sensible choices to be made. I fear that the median intelligence
>> of the peepul is falling below that level.
>
> It most certainly has in one political party.
> Nation wide we are barely hanging on.

Sadly, in the US the extremists, on both sides, are taking over.

All we seem to hear these days are rants from the far right and
far left. Listen to Fox's Hannity for example, very disturbing
(or anyone from talk radio). Likewise from the lefties.

People in the middle get screwed.

An example is the Boy Scouts. The WSJ just had an article about
them--they're losing membership and are in trouble. On the one
hand, they've gotten extremely pressure from some of their
sponsors to take in gays. On the other hand, some other sponsors
object to the gays. They end up losing either way.

Ironically, most kids in the scouts are too young to care about
such things. The extremists scream about a non-existent issue.
Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378262 is a reply to message #378256] Sat, 15 December 2018 15:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Sat, 15 Dec 2018 11:51:10 -0800 (PST), hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:

> On Friday, December 14, 2018 at 5:20:30 PM UTC-5, Dan Espen wrote:
>> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
>>
>>> On Thursday, December 13, 2018 at 8:16:01 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>
>>>> The problem is that people who make symbolic gestures and go on and on
>>>> and on about how virtuous they're being lead others to think that that
>>>> symbolic gesture is sufficient. If IPCC is right and if we're going
>>>> to keep the sky from falling we have to do a _lot_ more than what
>>>> you're describing. And we need the avant garde to actually start
>>>> showing how to do it.
>>>
>>> Yes, in my area the kids make a big deal about replacing incandescent
>>> light bulbs with FLD or LED. Big deal--the energy savings are trivial.
>>>
>>> No one wants to look at the numbers or true economics of energy.
>>>
>>> A big problem with alternative energy sources, like wind and solar,
>>> is that they simply don't have enough capacity to meet full demand.
>>> Secondly, they are intermittent sources. Third, they are very
>>> expensive and basically exist due to tax subsidies, govt grants,
>>> or special rates.
>>>
>>> In my area, someone with solar panels gets well paid by the
>>> power company. But that is false economy--the power company
>>> has the burden of maintaining a distribution network and
>>> administration which the individual does not have. The pure
>>> cost of power would be about half, and that's what donors
>>> should get.
>>>
>>> As to the general public, the reality is that no one wants to
>>> give up any modern convenience. Nobody will return to manual
>>> typewriters cutting a mimeo or spirit stencil to run on a
>>> handcranked duplicator. Few are willing to return to using
>>> public transit. Few are willing to live in high density
>>> housing. Suburban sprawl, for the most part, still remains
>>> king and that his horribly energy inefficient.
>>>
>>> I ain't giving up my a/c.
>>>
>>> Growing up, I lived in a city rowhouse and the suburbs weren't
>>> very crowded back then. Indeed, the old suburbs were still mostly
>>> dense and still served by transit. Indeed, today, a lot of
>>> companies have suburban offices not well served by transit,
>>> which forces people to drive.
>>
>> Things you don't like:
>>
>> Kids bragging about their LEDs.
>> No one meets your standards of numeracy.
>> Partial solutions.
>> Subsidies.
>>
>> The solutions are:
>>
>> Manual typewriters.
>> Hand-cranked duplicators.
>> Public transit.
>> More people in high density housing.
>>
>> Personally, I see no problem with partial solutions.
>> As a developer, I found that big problems could be solved
>> in steps.
>
> There is no objection to partial solutions--they are usually
> better than no solution at all (usually, but not always).
>
> What is objectionable is the 'masking effect', that people
> think replacing a light bulb is gonna make a radical change
> in energy or pollution when in reality it will not.
>
> Indeed, in the case of FLD's, that may have been counter productive.
> The FLD did save energy in consumption, but those suckers were toxic.
> A broken tube spilled powder on the plants which all died from it.
>
> Also, some lamps were falsely labeled as equivalent. That is,
> they'd claim their FLD was equal to a 100W incandescent lamp,
> but in reality it was dimmer. There's a measure called lumens,
> but no one looks at that, if you can even find it.
>
> As mentioned, the true major savings in energy savings (and
> pollution emissions) won't happen because people don't want to
> change their lifestyle.
>
> Indeed, among conservatives, it is an article of faith that
> recycling and energy consumption is just a silly liberal hoax.
> I see many conservatives disdainfully discarding cans in the
> regular trash, not recycling, because of that. (In reality,
> cans are fully recyclable and that is good). They see living
> on an acre of ground and driving a big fat SUV as a God-given
> right that they're not about to surrender.

Personally I don't have a problem with recycling cans, but they want
me to wash them first and I do have an objection to spending my free
time washing trash to make the government happy.

Further, there's the matter of what can and can't be recycled. Like
you can recycle corrugated board except you can't recycle pizza boxes.
You can recycle plastic that has a recycling mark on it unless it's
styrofoam. They've given up on recycling light bulbs, they're either
regular trash or hazardous waste, and if they're hazardous waste you
have to take them to the hazardous waste facility that's only open 4
hours a month.
Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378263 is a reply to message #378247] Sat, 15 December 2018 15:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anne & Lynn Wheel is currently offline  Anne & Lynn Wheel
Messages: 3156
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
maus <mausg@mail.com> writes:
> Careful. That road leads to Fascism, in which people who think
> they are smart, but are really dumb as Facebook users, take over..

brings up Dunning-Kruger effect
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

a little more drift ... The Black Swan: Second Edition: The Impact of
the Highly Improbable
https://www.amazon.com/Black-Swan-Second-Improbable-Incerto- ebook/dp/B00139XTG4/
loc5282-85:

The strangest thing is that people in business usually agree with me
when they listen to me talk or hear me make my case. But when they go to
the office the next day they revert to the Gaussian tools so entrenched
in their habits. Their minds are domain-dependent, so they can exercise
critical thinking at a conference while not doing so in the office.

.... snip ...

I noticed something similar (but different) when wandering around Somers
in the early 90s, having discussions agreeing about the major changes
needed in IBM ... and then go back a few weeks/months later and nothing
had changed (or even attempted).

loc5298-5300:

Unbeknownst to me, 1987 was not the first time the idea of the Gaussian
was shown to be lunacy. Mandelbrot proposed the scalable to the
economics establishment around 1960, and showed them how the Gaussian
curve did not fit prices then.

.... snip ...

periodically described as resigned in "protest"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benoit_Mandelbrot

Mandelbrot left IBM in 1987, after 35 years and 12 days, when IBM
decided to end pure research in his division.[24] He joined the
Department of Mathematics at Yale, and obtained his first tenured post
in 1999, at the age of 75.[25] At the time of his retirement in 2005, he
was Sterling Professor of Mathematical Sciences.

.... snip ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benoit_Mandelbrot#Randomness_i n_financial_markets

Mandelbrot saw financial markets as an example of "wild randomness",
characterized by concentration and long range dependence. He developed
several original approaches for modelling financial fluctuations.[18] In
his early work, he found that the price changes in financial markets did
not follow a Gaussian distribution, but rather Lévy stable
distributions having infinite variance. He found, for example, that
cotton prices followed a Lévy stable distribution with parameter α
equal to 1.7 rather than 2 as in a Gaussian distribution. "Stable"
distributions have the property that the sum of many instances of a
random variable follows the same distribution but with a larger scale
parameter.[19]

.... snip ...

In 1999, I was asked to help try and prevent the coming economic
mess. Claims that some investment bankers had walked away "clean" from
S&L crises, where then running Internet IPO mills (invest a few million,
hype, IPO for a few billion, should then fail leaving field clear for
the next round) and were predicted to get into securitized mortgages
next. Leading up to the economic mess imploding, articles were appearing
trying to lay the blame on computer models and risk managers. The risk
managers were saying that the business people forced them to fiddle the
inputs until they got the outputs they wanted (garbage-in, garbage-out).

--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970
Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378264 is a reply to message #378261] Sat, 15 December 2018 15:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mausg is currently offline  mausg
Messages: 2483
Registered: May 2013
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 2018-12-15, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, December 15, 2018 at 2:29:52 PM UTC-5, Dan Espen wrote:
>
>>> Democracy requires a certain minimum intelligence among the populace
>>> to enable sensible choices to be made. I fear that the median intelligence
>>> of the peepul is falling below that level.
>>
>> It most certainly has in one political party.
>> Nation wide we are barely hanging on.
>
> Sadly, in the US the extremists, on both sides, are taking over.
>
> All we seem to hear these days are rants from the far right and
> far left. Listen to Fox's Hannity for example, very disturbing
> (or anyone from talk radio). Likewise from the lefties.
>
> People in the middle get screwed.
>
> An example is the Boy Scouts. The WSJ just had an article about
> them--they're losing membership and are in trouble. On the one
> hand, they've gotten extremely pressure from some of their
> sponsors to take in gays. On the other hand, some other sponsors
> object to the gays. They end up losing either way.
>
> Ironically, most kids in the scouts are too young to care about
> such things. The extremists scream about a non-existent issue.
>

The Irish poet, Yeats,

"The Second coming"

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?





--
Maus@ireland.com
Opinions offered om any subject:
Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378265 is a reply to message #378261] Sat, 15 December 2018 15:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andy Leighton is currently offline  Andy Leighton
Messages: 203
Registered: July 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Sat, 15 Dec 2018 12:12:37 -0800 (PST),
hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, December 15, 2018 at 2:29:52 PM UTC-5, Dan Espen wrote:
>
>>> Democracy requires a certain minimum intelligence among the populace
>>> to enable sensible choices to be made. I fear that the median intelligence
>>> of the peepul is falling below that level.
>>
>> It most certainly has in one political party.
>> Nation wide we are barely hanging on.
>
> Sadly, in the US the extremists, on both sides, are taking over.
>
> All we seem to hear these days are rants from the far right and
> far left. Listen to Fox's Hannity for example, very disturbing
> (or anyone from talk radio). Likewise from the lefties.
>
> People in the middle get screwed.
>
> An example is the Boy Scouts. The WSJ just had an article about
> them--they're losing membership and are in trouble. On the one
> hand, they've gotten extremely pressure from some of their
> sponsors to take in gays. On the other hand, some other sponsors
> object to the gays. They end up losing either way.
>
> Ironically, most kids in the scouts are too young to care about
> such things. The extremists scream about a non-existent issue.

Really? Isn't scouts really aimed at 11-17 year olds then (with
Ventures going older and Cubs for those under 11). I would think
that most people become aware of their sexuality when they are
in that age range.

--
Andy Leighton => andyl@azaal.plus.com
"We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
- Douglas Adams
Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378266 is a reply to message #376693] Sat, 15 December 2018 15:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: JimP

On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 14:30:14 -0600, Dave Garland
<dave.garland@wizinfo.com> wrote:

> On 12/14/2018 1:19 PM, JimP wrote:
>
>> Well, all of the places I have lived used electricity for heating and
>> cooking. The current realtive's house hasn't had gas heating and
>> cooking for decades. I doubt it ever did, and its not new.
>
> Huh. Maybe a regional difference? My experience is in the Northeast
> and upper Midwest. Everywhere I've been, the advantage of electric was
> lower initial cost, at the expense of much higher operating cost. The
> older places often started as coal (or sometimes oil) heat, which (if
> it was central heat) provided the ductwork or plumbing to swap a gas
> furnace or boiler in. I do know a very few who heat with wood, but
> that's an isolated rural thing. For heating, electric might make sense
> in hotter areas, where you don't need much heat.

Couldn't be too local as it is what I have seen in California, Texas,
Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, Virginia, Tennessee, and Maryland.

I know some folks who live away from town in those southern states,
and they mostly use propane.

Of course, aboard ship we used steam in radiators for heat, and cold
water in the same radiators for cooling.

I saw oil fired heat in Maine. And we were put in lower level base
housing in Maryland that used coal. I don't remember air conditioning.
The houses were originally WW2 BOQ, bachelor officer quarters, turned
into one family houses. They were prefabs. That would have been early
1960s.

--
Jim
Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378267 is a reply to message #378256] Sat, 15 December 2018 16:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andreas Kohlbach is currently offline  Andreas Kohlbach
Messages: 1456
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Sat, 15 Dec 2018 11:51:10 -0800 (PST), hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>
> On Friday, December 14, 2018 at 5:20:30 PM UTC-5, Dan Espen wrote:
>> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
>>
>>> Growing up, I lived in a city rowhouse and the suburbs weren't
>>> very crowded back then. Indeed, the old suburbs were still mostly
>>> dense and still served by transit. Indeed, today, a lot of
>>> companies have suburban offices not well served by transit,
>>> which forces people to drive.
>>
>> Things you don't like:
>>
>> Kids bragging about their LEDs.
>> No one meets your standards of numeracy.
>> Partial solutions.
>> Subsidies.
>>
>> The solutions are:
>>
>> Manual typewriters.
>> Hand-cranked duplicators.
>> Public transit.
>> More people in high density housing.
>>
>> Personally, I see no problem with partial solutions.
>> As a developer, I found that big problems could be solved
>> in steps.
>
> There is no objection to partial solutions--they are usually
> better than no solution at all (usually, but not always).

:-)

> What is objectionable is the 'masking effect', that people
> think replacing a light bulb is gonna make a radical change
> in energy or pollution when in reality it will not.

In some "modern" countries in Europe you cannot buy incandescent light
bulbs anymore. You only find FLD or LED on the shelves. Most countries of
the European Union put this law in place some years ago.

But why would they? The Governments don't benefit from fewer taxes if
less energy is consumed. And since the consumer saves money (what they
save on energy is more than the higher price of the light bulb until it
burns out and needs to be replaced) they also don't benefit from taxes
due to the higher price.

So it's to reduce CO2 emissions.
--
Andreas

My random thoughts and comments
https://news-commentaries.blogspot.com/
Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378268 is a reply to message #378245] Sat, 15 December 2018 16:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: JimP

On Sat, 15 Dec 2018 12:55:58 -0500, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
wrote:
> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Sat, 15 Dec 2018 08:18:30 -0700, Peter Flass
>> <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> maus <mausg@mail.com> wrote:
>>>> On 2018-12-15, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>>> > On 15 Dec 2018 08:31:48 GMT
>>>> > maus <mausg@mail.com> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> 'Dear Sir/Madan'
>>>> >
>>>> > I think there should be an m in there - 'Dear Sir/Madman' perhaps.
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> !
>>>>
>>>> Just wondering when the British Army takes over in the UK..
>>>> Imagine, martial (or Marital? :)) music is played on BBC, an neverbefore
>>>> seen person with lotsa medals comes on camera, and reads a prepared script.
>>>>
>>>> "My fellow citizens. yaddo, yaddo"
>>>>
>>>> Everything seems possible at the moment, even the above happening in the US.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Non-sequiter? Yes, it does, and it might be better than the current
>>> situation.
>>
>> It's sad that that appears to be the case, but democracy seems to be
>> putting stupider and more venal people in charge with every election.
>
> With the notable exception of a recent president.

Oh Indeed. President Obama is highly intelligent.

Or did you mean the orange haired buffon ?

--
Jim
Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378269 is a reply to message #378262] Sat, 15 December 2018 16:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hancock4 is currently offline  hancock4
Messages: 6746
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Saturday, December 15, 2018 at 3:40:42 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:

>> Indeed, among conservatives, it is an article of faith that
>> recycling and energy consumption is just a silly liberal hoax.
>> I see many conservatives disdainfully discarding cans in the
>> regular trash, not recycling, because of that. (In reality,
>> cans are fully recyclable and that is good). They see living
>> on an acre of ground and driving a big fat SUV as a God-given
>> right that they're not about to surrender.
>
> Personally I don't have a problem with recycling cans, but they want
> me to wash them first and I do have an objection to spending my free
> time washing trash to make the government happy.

all we are asked is to rinse the can out, which takes but a moment.
No burden.

Cans (steel and aluminum) are fully recyclable. Doing so saves
energy and the environment at no cost to us. Glass is also
recyclable, but not so much is put in glass these days.
Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378270 is a reply to message #378265] Sat, 15 December 2018 16:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hancock4 is currently offline  hancock4
Messages: 6746
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Saturday, December 15, 2018 at 3:51:55 PM UTC-5, Andy Leighton wrote:

>> Ironically, most kids in the scouts are too young to care about
>> such things. The extremists scream about a non-existent issue.
>
> Really? Isn't scouts really aimed at 11-17 year olds then (with
> Ventures going older and Cubs for those under 11). I would think
> that most people become aware of their sexuality when they are
> in that age range.

The Cub Scouts start much younger.

Kids lose interest in scouting as they get older, so they aren't
as many older kids in scouts.

While some kids are aware of their orientation at a young age,
IMHO, most don't come to understand it until they are older
and beyond the age of scouting.

I still maintain the typical Scout is too young to be aware of
that sort of thing or care.
Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378271 is a reply to message #377833] Sat, 15 December 2018 16:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anne &amp; Lynn Wheel is currently offline  Anne &amp; Lynn Wheel
Messages: 3156
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> writes:
> other Boyd references:
>
> John Boyd - USAF, The Fighter Pilot Who Changed the Art of Air Warfare
> http://www.aviation-history.com/airmen/boyd.htm
> John Boyd's Art of War; Why our greatest military theorist
> only made colonel.
> http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/john-boyds-a rt-of-war/
> Genghis John - Chuck Spinney's Bio of John Boyd
> http://radio-weblogs.com/0107127/stories/2002/12/23/genghisJ ohnChuckSpinneysBioOfJohnBoyd.html

re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018f.html#79 Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018f.html#80 Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018f.html#81 Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018f.html#83 Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth?

recent: The F-16 Fighting Falcon: A Creation Of The 'Lightweight Fighter
Mafia'
https://www.avgeekery.com/the-f-16-fighting-falcon-a-creatio n-of-the-lightweight-fighter-mafia/

We don't want to give away the good stuff but perhaps the most
interesting bit of info involves a famous pilot's scientific approach to
air combat and his formation, along with other scientists and
researchers, of the Lightweight Fighter Mafia. You'll need to watch to
find out more (don't worry; this won't be on the test.)

.... snip ...

--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970
Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378272 is a reply to message #378267] Sat, 15 December 2018 16:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hancock4 is currently offline  hancock4
Messages: 6746
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Saturday, December 15, 2018 at 4:03:33 PM UTC-5, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:

>> What is objectionable is the 'masking effect', that people
>> think replacing a light bulb is gonna make a radical change
>> in energy or pollution when in reality it will not.
>
> In some "modern" countries in Europe you cannot buy incandescent light
> bulbs anymore. You only find FLD or LED on the shelves. Most countries of
> the European Union put this law in place some years ago.

I believe it's like that in the U.S., too.

> But why would they? The Governments don't benefit from fewer taxes if
> less energy is consumed. And since the consumer saves money (what they
> save on energy is more than the higher price of the light bulb until it
> burns out and needs to be replaced) they also don't benefit from taxes
> due to the higher price.
>
> So it's to reduce CO2 emissions.

The FLDs were much expensive than incandescents. They didn't seem
to last that much longer--the base would burn out. IMHO, they did
not save money.

Also, in household service lamps get turned off and on a lot. I
believe that reduces the life of a fluorescent lamp. In an office,
they lights are turned on early and turned off late, so the
savings are much more significant.
Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378273 is a reply to message #378269] Sat, 15 December 2018 16:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Sat, 15 Dec 2018 13:08:44 -0800 (PST), hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:

> On Saturday, December 15, 2018 at 3:40:42 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>>> Indeed, among conservatives, it is an article of faith that
>>> recycling and energy consumption is just a silly liberal hoax.
>>> I see many conservatives disdainfully discarding cans in the
>>> regular trash, not recycling, because of that. (In reality,
>>> cans are fully recyclable and that is good). They see living
>>> on an acre of ground and driving a big fat SUV as a God-given
>>> right that they're not about to surrender.
>>
>> Personally I don't have a problem with recycling cans, but they want
>> me to wash them first and I do have an objection to spending my free
>> time washing trash to make the government happy.
>
> all we are asked is to rinse the can out, which takes but a moment.
> No burden.

It is to me. Seems to me that it would be more efficient to rinse
them all at the recycling center.

> Cans (steel and aluminum) are fully recyclable. Doing so saves
> energy and the environment at no cost to us. Glass is also
> recyclable, but not so much is put in glass these days.

Except when the glass is light bulbs or window glass or mirrors or
anything else, and then they won't take the lids that are made of the
same material as the cans.
>
Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378277 is a reply to message #378267] Sat, 15 December 2018 16:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Sat, 15 Dec 2018 16:03:32 -0500, Andreas Kohlbach
<ank@spamfence.net> wrote:

> On Sat, 15 Dec 2018 11:51:10 -0800 (PST), hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>
>> On Friday, December 14, 2018 at 5:20:30 PM UTC-5, Dan Espen wrote:
>>> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
>>>
>>>> Growing up, I lived in a city rowhouse and the suburbs weren't
>>>> very crowded back then. Indeed, the old suburbs were still mostly
>>>> dense and still served by transit. Indeed, today, a lot of
>>>> companies have suburban offices not well served by transit,
>>>> which forces people to drive.
>>>
>>> Things you don't like:
>>>
>>> Kids bragging about their LEDs.
>>> No one meets your standards of numeracy.
>>> Partial solutions.
>>> Subsidies.
>>>
>>> The solutions are:
>>>
>>> Manual typewriters.
>>> Hand-cranked duplicators.
>>> Public transit.
>>> More people in high density housing.
>>>
>>> Personally, I see no problem with partial solutions.
>>> As a developer, I found that big problems could be solved
>>> in steps.
>>
>> There is no objection to partial solutions--they are usually
>> better than no solution at all (usually, but not always).
>
> :-)
>
>> What is objectionable is the 'masking effect', that people
>> think replacing a light bulb is gonna make a radical change
>> in energy or pollution when in reality it will not.
>
> In some "modern" countries in Europe you cannot buy incandescent light
> bulbs anymore. You only find FLD or LED on the shelves. Most countries of
> the European Union put this law in place some years ago.
>
> But why would they? The Governments don't benefit from fewer taxes if
> less energy is consumed. And since the consumer saves money (what they
> save on energy is more than the higher price of the light bulb until it
> burns out and needs to be replaced) they also don't benefit from taxes
> due to the higher price.
>
> So it's to reduce CO2 emissions.

More likely it's to put money in the pockets of the light bulb
manfacturers.

Don't attribute to virtue that which can be adequately explained by
greed.,

And the reduction in CO2 emissions is negligible.

Residential energy use:
Air conditioning 17%
Space heating 15%
Water heating 14%
Lighting 10%
TVs and related 7%
Refrigerators 7%
Clothes dryers 5%
Itemized other uses 12% (I won't list them all here)
"Not elsewhere classified" 13%

A 100 watt incandescent is replaced by a 14 watt LED--saving there is
potentially, if _all_ domestic lighting is incandescent takes the
total down from 10% to 1.4%.

I'm sorry, but that's peeing in the ocean.
Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378278 is a reply to message #378272] Sat, 15 December 2018 16:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Sat, 15 Dec 2018 13:17:35 -0800 (PST), hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:

> On Saturday, December 15, 2018 at 4:03:33 PM UTC-5, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>
>>> What is objectionable is the 'masking effect', that people
>>> think replacing a light bulb is gonna make a radical change
>>> in energy or pollution when in reality it will not.
>>
>> In some "modern" countries in Europe you cannot buy incandescent light
>> bulbs anymore. You only find FLD or LED on the shelves. Most countries of
>> the European Union put this law in place some years ago.
>
> I believe it's like that in the U.S., too.
>
>> But why would they? The Governments don't benefit from fewer taxes if
>> less energy is consumed. And since the consumer saves money (what they
>> save on energy is more than the higher price of the light bulb until it
>> burns out and needs to be replaced) they also don't benefit from taxes
>> due to the higher price.
>>
>> So it's to reduce CO2 emissions.
>
> The FLDs were much expensive than incandescents. They didn't seem
> to last that much longer--the base would burn out. IMHO, they did
> not save money.
>
> Also, in household service lamps get turned off and on a lot. I
> believe that reduces the life of a fluorescent lamp. In an office,
> they lights are turned on early and turned off late, so the
> savings are much more significant.

Not in our office. We've learned to wave periodically at the sensor
so that the lights don't turn out.


>
Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378279 is a reply to message #378270] Sat, 15 December 2018 17:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mausg is currently offline  mausg
Messages: 2483
Registered: May 2013
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 2018-12-15, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, December 15, 2018 at 3:51:55 PM UTC-5, Andy Leighton wrote:
>
>>> Ironically, most kids in the scouts are too young to care about
>>> such things. The extremists scream about a non-existent issue.
>>
>> Really? Isn't scouts really aimed at 11-17 year olds then (with
>> Ventures going older and Cubs for those under 11). I would think
>> that most people become aware of their sexuality when they are
>> in that age range.
>
> The Cub Scouts start much younger.
>
> Kids lose interest in scouting as they get older, so they aren't
> as many older kids in scouts.
>
> While some kids are aware of their orientation at a young age,
> IMHO, most don't come to understand it until they are older
> and beyond the age of scouting.
>
> I still maintain the typical Scout is too young to be aware of
> that sort of thing or care.
>
>

I strongly disagree.


--
Maus@ireland.com
Opinions offered om any subject:
Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378280 is a reply to message #378279] Sat, 15 December 2018 18:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On 15 Dec 2018 22:43:13 GMT, maus <mausg@mail.com> wrote:

> On 2018-12-15, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>> On Saturday, December 15, 2018 at 3:51:55 PM UTC-5, Andy Leighton wrote:
>>
>>>> Ironically, most kids in the scouts are too young to care about
>>>> such things. The extremists scream about a non-existent issue.
>>>
>>> Really? Isn't scouts really aimed at 11-17 year olds then (with
>>> Ventures going older and Cubs for those under 11). I would think
>>> that most people become aware of their sexuality when they are
>>> in that age range.
>>
>> The Cub Scouts start much younger.
>>
>> Kids lose interest in scouting as they get older, so they aren't
>> as many older kids in scouts.
>>
>> While some kids are aware of their orientation at a young age,
>> IMHO, most don't come to understand it until they are older
>> and beyond the age of scouting.
>>
>> I still maintain the typical Scout is too young to be aware of
>> that sort of thing or care.
>>
>>
>
> I strongly disagree.

Do the Boy Scouts in Ireland have a policy toward gays? Or are you
just telling people in some other country how they should live their
lives when it doesn't affect you?
Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378283 is a reply to message #376693] Sat, 15 December 2018 18:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dan Espen is currently offline  Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> writes:

> On 2018-12-15, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> writes:
>>
>>> On 2018-12-15, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>> [27 lines snipped]
>>>
>>>> > It's sad that that appears to be the case, but democracy seems to be
>>>> > putting stupider and more venal people in charge with every election.
>>>>
>>>> With the notable exception of a recent president.
>>>
>>> Care to elaborate?
>>
>> As if I have to.
>
> I rather thought my question implied that you did.

Well, most of my right wing friends (even) recognize that
Obama wasn't stupid. He actually spoke in complete sentences.
Something the Repubs haven't managed for a while now.

--
Dan Espen
Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378284 is a reply to message #378261] Sat, 15 December 2018 18:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dan Espen is currently offline  Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:

> On Saturday, December 15, 2018 at 2:29:52 PM UTC-5, Dan Espen wrote:
>
>>> Democracy requires a certain minimum intelligence among the
>>> populace to enable sensible choices to be made. I fear that the
>>> median intelligence of the peepul is falling below that level.
>>
>> It most certainly has in one political party. Nation wide we are
>> barely hanging on.
>
> Sadly, in the US the extremists, on both sides, are taking over.

Yep, typical lie told by the right.

I remember when Obama was revealed as the extremist he is. Right after
the inauguration, the righties caught him and Michelle performing a
"terrorist fist bump".

The left leaning extremist in the last election was Bernie. After all,
he's a socialist. To call the rest of the party extremists is just a
lie.

Anyway, try to stay on topic. In this case it's intelligence, not
extremism.

> All we seem to hear these days are rants from the far right and far
> left. Listen to Fox's Hannity for example, very disturbing (or anyone
> from talk radio). Likewise from the lefties.

Fox is full of extremists, but the right in the Senate and House are
singing the same tune.

I suggest you actually listen to Rachel Maddow. She doesn't make crap
up and spew BS like the Fox crew. She did an amazing piece called
"Betrayal" on Nixon a while back.

> People in the middle get screwed.
>
> An example is the Boy Scouts. The WSJ just had an article about
> them--they're losing membership and are in trouble. On the one hand,
> they've gotten extremely pressure from some of their sponsors to take
> in gays. On the other hand, some other sponsors object to the gays.
> They end up losing either way.
>
> Ironically, most kids in the scouts are too young to care about such
> things. The extremists scream about a non-existent issue.

What is that? Some kind of right wing distortion of the Boy Scouts
story? That's not why they are in trouble:

Facing mounting legal costs from defending itself against lawsuits
alleging sexual abuse of boys

Ironic isn't it? The whole organization claims to be holier than anyone
but they can't stop molesting little boys.

I was under the impression the gay issue was resolved a while back. Yep
Wikipedia:

On May 23, 2013, The Boy Scouts of America's national governing body
voted to rescind the long-standing ban on homosexual youth in the
program. Effective January 1, 2014, "No youth may be denied membership
in the Boy Scouts of America on the basis of sexual orientation or
preference alone."


--
Dan Espen
Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378285 is a reply to message #378255] Sat, 15 December 2018 18:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dan Espen is currently offline  Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:

> On Sat, 15 Dec 2018 12:55:58 -0500, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> On Sat, 15 Dec 2018 08:18:30 -0700, Peter Flass
>>> <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> maus <mausg@mail.com> wrote:
>>>> > On 2018-12-15, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>>> >> On 15 Dec 2018 08:31:48 GMT
>>>> >> maus <mausg@mail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> 'Dear Sir/Madan'
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I think there should be an m in there - 'Dear Sir/Madman' perhaps.
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> > !
>>>> >
>>>> > Just wondering when the British Army takes over in the UK..
>>>> > Imagine, martial (or Marital? :)) music is played on BBC, an neverbefore
>>>> > seen person with lotsa medals comes on camera, and reads a prepared script.
>>>> >
>>>> > "My fellow citizens. yaddo, yaddo"
>>>> >
>>>> > Everything seems possible at the moment, even the above happening in the US.
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> Non-sequiter? Yes, it does, and it might be better than the current
>>>> situation.
>>>
>>> It's sad that that appears to be the case, but democracy seems to be
>>> putting stupider and more venal people in charge with every election.
>>
>> With the notable exception of a recent president.
>
> Which one would that be? If you mean Obama, I didn't notice him doing
> anything much that wasn't stupid. He might have followed the agenda
> that you wanted him to follow but that just means that he will
> stupidly do whatever is popular.

He stupidly signed into law a health care bill that insured a load of
people. He stupidly avoided a major recession. He stupidly hunted down
OBL and killed him.

Then he stupidly endured 6 years of not being able to do anything with
congress but somehow didn't start any wars on made up reasons.

If you're implying Obama was stupid, well, there is no hope for a
rational discussion.

--
Dan Espen
Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378286 is a reply to message #378262] Sat, 15 December 2018 19:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dan Espen is currently offline  Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:

> On Sat, 15 Dec 2018 11:51:10 -0800 (PST), hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>
>> Indeed, among conservatives, it is an article of faith that
>> recycling and energy consumption is just a silly liberal hoax.
>> I see many conservatives disdainfully discarding cans in the
>> regular trash, not recycling, because of that. (In reality,
>> cans are fully recyclable and that is good). They see living
>> on an acre of ground and driving a big fat SUV as a God-given
>> right that they're not about to surrender.
>
> Personally I don't have a problem with recycling cans, but they want
> me to wash them first and I do have an objection to spending my free
> time washing trash to make the government happy.

Put them in the dishwasher.
Takes no effort at all.

> Further, there's the matter of what can and can't be recycled. Like
> you can recycle corrugated board except you can't recycle pizza boxes.
> You can recycle plastic that has a recycling mark on it unless it's
> styrofoam.

Here they recently changed to accepting everything including bags then a
few months later changed again to only 1 and 2 no bags.

Pizza boxes inevitably have grease stains. That's why they don't want
them.

> They've given up on recycling light bulbs, they're either
> regular trash or hazardous waste, and if they're hazardous waste you
> have to take them to the hazardous waste facility that's only open 4
> hours a month.

At least we've stopped using tungsten, something in short supply.

Some right wingers have bought cases of 100 watt incandescent bulbs.
You know, they were going to be outlawed.

LEDs pretty much make the recycling issue a non-issue.
Since you throw them away after 25 years, you don't create much
waste.

--
Dan Espen
Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378287 is a reply to message #378267] Sat, 15 December 2018 19:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dan Espen is currently offline  Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> writes:

> In some "modern" countries in Europe you cannot buy incandescent light
> bulbs anymore.

Including lights for ovens?

--
Dan Espen
Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378288 is a reply to message #378270] Sat, 15 December 2018 19:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bill Findlay is currently offline  Bill Findlay
Messages: 286
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
<hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, December 15, 2018 at 3:51:55 PM UTC-5, Andy Leighton wrote:
>
>>> Ironically, most kids in the scouts are too young to care about
>>> such things. The extremists scream about a non-existent issue.
>>
>> Really? Isn't scouts really aimed at 11-17 year olds then (with
>> Ventures going older and Cubs for those under 11). I would think
>> that most people become aware of their sexuality when they are
>> in that age range.
>
> The Cub Scouts start much younger.
>
> Kids lose interest in scouting as they get older, so they aren't
> as many older kids in scouts.
>
> While some kids are aware of their orientation at a young age,
> IMHO, most don't come to understand it until they are older
> and beyond the age of scouting.
>
> I still maintain the typical Scout is too young to be aware of
> that sort of thing or care.

Gosh!
We gays are so grateful to have you explain our lives to us.
It all makes sense at last!
Thank you! Thank you!,

--
Bill Findlay
Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378289 is a reply to message #378285] Sat, 15 December 2018 19:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Sat, 15 Dec 2018 18:58:36 -0500, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
wrote:

> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Sat, 15 Dec 2018 12:55:58 -0500, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 15 Dec 2018 08:18:30 -0700, Peter Flass
>>>> <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >maus <mausg@mail.com> wrote:
>>>> >> On 2018-12-15, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>>> >>> On 15 Dec 2018 08:31:48 GMT
>>>> >>> maus <mausg@mail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> 'Dear Sir/Madan'
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> I think there should be an m in there - 'Dear Sir/Madman' perhaps.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> !
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Just wondering when the British Army takes over in the UK..
>>>> >> Imagine, martial (or Marital? :)) music is played on BBC, an neverbefore
>>>> >> seen person with lotsa medals comes on camera, and reads a prepared script.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> "My fellow citizens. yaddo, yaddo"
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Everything seems possible at the moment, even the above happening in the US.
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> >Non-sequiter? Yes, it does, and it might be better than the current
>>>> >situation.
>>>>
>>>> It's sad that that appears to be the case, but democracy seems to be
>>>> putting stupider and more venal people in charge with every election.
>>>
>>> With the notable exception of a recent president.
>>
>> Which one would that be? If you mean Obama, I didn't notice him doing
>> anything much that wasn't stupid. He might have followed the agenda
>> that you wanted him to follow but that just means that he will
>> stupidly do whatever is popular.
>
> He stupidly signed into law a health care bill that insured a load of
> people.

Which people would those be? Obamacare did not provide insurance to
anyone. It tried to force people who could not afford insurance to
pay for it anyway or have the cost taken from them as taxes.

You are conflating it with something like the National Health Service,
which it most assuredly is _not_. I pay more for less insurance than
I did before Obamacare went through.

> He stupidly avoided a major recession.

Oh, you buy into the myth that government action can prevent a
recession? Sorry, the government has little effect on the economy.

> He stupidly hunted down
> OBL and killed him.

Funny, SEAL Team 6 seems to be laboring under the misconception that
they did that. About all Obama can say about is that he did not
present an obstacle to their activities.

> Then he stupidly endured 6 years of not being able to do anything with
> congress but somehow didn't start any wars on made up reasons.

No, he just managed to make the existing ones worse.

> If you're implying Obama was stupid, well, there is no hope for a
> rational discussion.

I do not expect rational discussion with anyone mired in isms such as
Democratism or Republicanism or Libertarianism--you're so deeply
indoctrinated with the ideology that you can't see the mess that it's
making.
Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378290 is a reply to message #378286] Sat, 15 December 2018 20:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Sat, 15 Dec 2018 19:13:26 -0500, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
wrote:

> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Sat, 15 Dec 2018 11:51:10 -0800 (PST), hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>
>>> Indeed, among conservatives, it is an article of faith that
>>> recycling and energy consumption is just a silly liberal hoax.
>>> I see many conservatives disdainfully discarding cans in the
>>> regular trash, not recycling, because of that. (In reality,
>>> cans are fully recyclable and that is good). They see living
>>> on an acre of ground and driving a big fat SUV as a God-given
>>> right that they're not about to surrender.
>>
>> Personally I don't have a problem with recycling cans, but they want
>> me to wash them first and I do have an objection to spending my free
>> time washing trash to make the government happy.
>
> Put them in the dishwasher.
> Takes no effort at all.

Except it's full of dishes so now I have to run it twice.

>> Further, there's the matter of what can and can't be recycled. Like
>> you can recycle corrugated board except you can't recycle pizza boxes.
>> You can recycle plastic that has a recycling mark on it unless it's
>> styrofoam.
>
> Here they recently changed to accepting everything including bags then a
> few months later changed again to only 1 and 2 no bags.
>
> Pizza boxes inevitably have grease stains. That's why they don't want
> them.

Doesn't matter why they don't want them. The Federal budget is 3.8
trillion dollars. If it was not run by FUCKING IDIOTS they've have
put _some_ of it into a research program to permit recycling of that
vast percentage of paper products that are "contaminated with food"
instead of just burning it all.

>> They've given up on recycling light bulbs, they're either
>> regular trash or hazardous waste, and if they're hazardous waste you
>> have to take them to the hazardous waste facility that's only open 4
>> hours a month.
>
> At least we've stopped using tungsten, something in short supply.

Yeah, reducing usage by 3 percent is going to save the world.

> Some right wingers have bought cases of 100 watt incandescent bulbs.
> You know, they were going to be outlawed.

And they effectively were.

> LEDs pretty much make the recycling issue a non-issue.
> Since you throw them away after 25 years, you don't create much
> waste.

If they last 25 years. While they may be "rated" for that the rating
is based on loss of illumination, not escape of magic smoke. There
are parts in there other than the LED, some of them fairly
complicated, and those parts also have to last 25 years.
Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378291 is a reply to message #378284] Sat, 15 December 2018 20:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andrew Swallow is currently offline  Andrew Swallow
Messages: 1705
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 15/12/2018 23:49, Dan Espen wrote:
>
> What is that? Some kind of right wing distortion of the Boy Scouts
> story? That's not why they are in trouble:
>
> Facing mounting legal costs from defending itself against lawsuits
> alleging sexual abuse of boys
>
> Ironic isn't it? The whole organization claims to be holier than anyone
> but they can't stop molesting little boys.
>
> I was under the impression the gay issue was resolved a while back. Yep
> Wikipedia:
>
> On May 23, 2013, The Boy Scouts of America's national governing body
> voted to rescind the long-standing ban on homosexual youth in the
> program. Effective January 1, 2014, "No youth may be denied membership
> in the Boy Scouts of America on the basis of sexual orientation or
> preference alone."
>
>

Minorities from minor meaning small.

When catering to a small take care to ensure that you do not hurt your
main product. Also charge 3 times the price to cover the extra costs.
Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378292 is a reply to message #378228] Sat, 15 December 2018 20:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andrew Swallow is currently offline  Andrew Swallow
Messages: 1705
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 15/12/2018 08:16, maus wrote:
> On 2018-12-15, J Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 17:20:27 -0500, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
>>>
>>>> On Thursday, December 13, 2018 at 8:16:01 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>
>>> As a developer, I found that big problems could be solved
>>> in steps.
>>
>> Except according to IPCC we've got _ten_ years. If they are right
>> this isn't a problem that can be fixed by chipping away at it over a
>> lifetime.
>
> Ten Years?.. We are already doomed!!!.. doomed to die horribly, to be
> tossed into Helll!!!!!!
>
>

Do not worry global warming is a 22 century problem. You will not be
around to see it.
Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378293 is a reply to message #378287] Sat, 15 December 2018 21:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andy Burns is currently offline  Andy Burns
Messages: 416
Registered: June 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Dan Espen wrote:

> Andreas Kohlbach writes:
>
>> In some "modern" countries in Europe you cannot buy incandescent light
>> bulbs anymore.
>
> Including lights for ovens?

Specialist incandescent lamps (such as high temperature E14 for ovens)
and 'rough service' versions of normal lamps with E27 or BC22 fittings
are still available.
Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378294 is a reply to message #378234] Sat, 15 December 2018 21:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: jmreno

On 12/15/2018 2:30 AM, maus wrote:
> On 2018-12-15, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>> On 15 Dec 2018 08:31:48 GMT
>> maus <mausg@mail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> 'Dear Sir/Madan'
>>
>> I think there should be an m in there - 'Dear Sir/Madman' perhaps.
>>
>
> !
>
> Just wondering when the British Army takes over in the UK..
> Imagine, martial (or Marital? :)) music is played on BBC, an neverbefore
> seen person with lotsa medals comes on camera, and reads a prepared script.
>
> "My fellow citizens. yaddo, yaddo"
>
> Everything seems possible at the moment, even the above happening in the US.
>

Didn't Monty Python already do that skit?
Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378295 is a reply to message #378212] Sat, 15 December 2018 22:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joy Beeson is currently offline  Joy Beeson
Messages: 159
Registered: June 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 23:16:25 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

> 75% less energy usage for equivalent lumens is trivial?

Seventy-five percent of almost nothing is almost nothing.


--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378296 is a reply to message #378295] Sat, 15 December 2018 22:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Sat, 15 Dec 2018 22:01:40 -0500, Joy Beeson
<jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:

> On Fri, 14 Dec 2018 23:16:25 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
> wrote:
>
>> 75% less energy usage for equivalent lumens is trivial?
>
> Seventy-five percent of almost nothing is almost nothing.

It's like ignoring a severed artery to treat a cat scratch. It's
environmentalist theater.
Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378300 is a reply to message #378277] Sun, 16 December 2018 01:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Sat, 15 Dec 2018 16:33:37 -0500
J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:

> And the reduction in CO2 emissions is negligible.
>
> Residential energy use:
> Air conditioning 17%
Don't have it

> Space heating 15%
Wood pellets - CO2 neutral

> Water heating 14%
Wood pellets - CO2 neutral

> Lighting 10%
Oh look what's at the top of the list now!

> TVs and related 7%
> Refrigerators 7%

> Clothes dryers 5%
Don't have one

> Itemized other uses 12% (I won't list them all here)
> "Not elsewhere classified" 13%
>
> A 100 watt incandescent is replaced by a 14 watt LED--saving there is
> potentially, if _all_ domestic lighting is incandescent takes the
> total down from 10% to 1.4%.

For me (and anyone else with carbon neutral heating) you can double
those numbers and call it 20% down to 3% which is rather more significant
not massive but not insignificant either.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378301 is a reply to message #378290] Sun, 16 December 2018 01:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Sat, 15 Dec 2018 20:03:58 -0500
J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:

> There
> are parts in there other than the LED, some of them fairly
> complicated, and those parts also have to last 25 years.

The LEDs that light my house contain LED chips wired in sets of
three in series and a resistor in series with each set. They run off 12
volt supplies in my crawl space.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378302 is a reply to message #378259] Sun, 16 December 2018 03:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike Spencer is currently offline  Mike Spencer
Messages: 997
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:

> Modern policy has hit the traditional power companies hard. As a
> result, they've cut back on maintenance. Power failures take
> longer to repair, and they're not as well equipped to deal with
> big outages. They fail to due to preventive maintenance. For
> instance, in my area, they used to trim trees back away from their
> lines every year. Now they only do that every five years. As a
> result even minor storms result in failures since tree limbs fall
> on the lines. It takes a long time to repair.

Gee, I hadda check to make sure I hadn't written that. Only here they
haven't done tree trimming for decades save in occasional small spots.
Normal Nova Scotia inclement weather now predictably causes scattered
or wide outages. People who should know the in-house gossip say the
high tension towers are even more vulnerable, some of which will fail
spectaclarly in the forseeable future.

But I don't inderstand how "modern policy" has effected that. I see
it as simply increased short-term profit. The "internal diseconomy"
of maintenance is externalized as a cost to users. Even with wood
heat and hand-pumped water, we have to have a gen set to maintain
freezers and fridge in prolonged outages. More typical rural
households lose heat, water and cooking as well as refrigeration in an
outage.

Way cheaper, AIUI, to send crews out to fix what breaks than to deploy
crews 200 days a year to keep lines clear.

> Further, the national grid is being used in ways never intended,
> making it far more vulnerable to massive failure. Given population
> growth, it needs a lot of expansion and modernization which it isn't
> getting.

Huh. I don't know much about that.

> Power stability is especially tricky since power is hard to store.
> If something major happens, it can quickly cascade.
>
> I think in NYC Con Ed wanted to install local turbines as a
> supplement. Good idea. But the environmentalists fought it.

Some specific locations here have windmills but I'm uncertain if they
do much for the grid. Two near me, perhaps a dozen withing an 80
mi. radius.

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378303 is a reply to message #378302] Sun, 16 December 2018 03:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On 16 Dec 2018 04:12:37 -0400, Mike Spencer
<mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:

>
> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
>
>> Modern policy has hit the traditional power companies hard. As a
>> result, they've cut back on maintenance. Power failures take
>> longer to repair, and they're not as well equipped to deal with
>> big outages. They fail to due to preventive maintenance. For
>> instance, in my area, they used to trim trees back away from their
>> lines every year. Now they only do that every five years. As a
>> result even minor storms result in failures since tree limbs fall
>> on the lines. It takes a long time to repair.
>
> Gee, I hadda check to make sure I hadn't written that. Only here they
> haven't done tree trimming for decades save in occasional small spots.
> Normal Nova Scotia inclement weather now predictably causes scattered
> or wide outages. People who should know the in-house gossip say the
> high tension towers are even more vulnerable, some of which will fail
> spectaclarly in the forseeable future.
>
> But I don't inderstand how "modern policy" has effected that. I see
> it as simply increased short-term profit. The "internal diseconomy"
> of maintenance is externalized as a cost to users. Even with wood
> heat and hand-pumped water, we have to have a gen set to maintain
> freezers and fridge in prolonged outages. More typical rural
> households lose heat, water and cooking as well as refrigeration in an
> outage.
>
> Way cheaper, AIUI, to send crews out to fix what breaks than to deploy
> crews 200 days a year to keep lines clear.
>
>> Further, the national grid is being used in ways never intended,
>> making it far more vulnerable to massive failure. Given population
>> growth, it needs a lot of expansion and modernization which it isn't
>> getting.
>
> Huh. I don't know much about that.
>
>> Power stability is especially tricky since power is hard to store.
>> If something major happens, it can quickly cascade.
>>
>> I think in NYC Con Ed wanted to install local turbines as a
>> supplement. Good idea. But the environmentalists fought it.
>
> Some specific locations here have windmills but I'm uncertain if they
> do much for the grid. Two near me, perhaps a dozen withing an 80
> mi. radius.

In the case of NYC it wasn't wind turbines, it was gas turbines. There
is a proposal to build several gigawatts of generating capacity in New
Jersey but the Sierra Club has managed to get a lot of NIMBY going
against it.
Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378304 is a reply to message #378280] Sun, 16 December 2018 03:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mausg is currently offline  mausg
Messages: 2483
Registered: May 2013
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 2018-12-15, J Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 15 Dec 2018 22:43:13 GMT, maus <mausg@mail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2018-12-15, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>>> On Saturday, December 15, 2018 at 3:51:55 PM UTC-5, Andy Leighton wrote:
>>>
>>>> > Ironically, most kids in the scouts are too young to care about
>>>> > such things. The extremists scream about a non-existent issue.
>>>>
>>>> Really? Isn't scouts really aimed at 11-17 year olds then (with
>>>> Ventures going older and Cubs for those under 11). I would think
>>>> that most people become aware of their sexuality when they are
>>>> in that age range.
>>>
>>> The Cub Scouts start much younger.
>>>
>>> Kids lose interest in scouting as they get older, so they aren't
>>> as many older kids in scouts.
>>>
>>> While some kids are aware of their orientation at a young age,
>>> IMHO, most don't come to understand it until they are older
>>> and beyond the age of scouting.
>>>
>>> I still maintain the typical Scout is too young to be aware of
>>> that sort of thing or care.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I strongly disagree.
>
> Do the Boy Scouts in Ireland have a policy toward gays? Or are you
> just telling people in some other country how they should live their
> lives when it doesn't affect you?


I am affected when a young or even middle aged person of my aquaintance
has mental problems because of being exploited by a pervert (of any
persuasion) when young. A massive problem has emerged in the Scout
movement here recently about that, over 400 complaints). I dont care if
you are gay or whatever, children should be left alone.

I am quite amazed that any person should think otherwise.


--
Maus@ireland.com
Opinions offered om any subject:
Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378305 is a reply to message #378294] Sun, 16 December 2018 03:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mausg is currently offline  mausg
Messages: 2483
Registered: May 2013
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 2018-12-16, jmreno <none@znet.com> wrote:
> On 12/15/2018 2:30 AM, maus wrote:
>> On 2018-12-15, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>> On 15 Dec 2018 08:31:48 GMT
>>> maus <mausg@mail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> 'Dear Sir/Madan'
>>>
>>> I think there should be an m in there - 'Dear Sir/Madman' perhaps.
>>>
>>
>> !
>>
>> Just wondering when the British Army takes over in the UK..
>> Imagine, martial (or Marital? :)) music is played on BBC, an neverbefore
>> seen person with lotsa medals comes on camera, and reads a prepared script.
>>
>> "My fellow citizens. yaddo, yaddo"
>>
>> Everything seems possible at the moment, even the above happening in the US.
>>
>
> Didn't Monty Python already do that skit?
>
>

Eisenhower did a warning, and he was an army man.

The situation in the UK is getting dire.



--
Maus@ireland.com
Opinions offered om any subject:
Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378306 is a reply to message #378304] Sun, 16 December 2018 04:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On 16 Dec 2018 08:45:46 GMT, maus <mausg@mail.com> wrote:

> On 2018-12-15, J Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 15 Dec 2018 22:43:13 GMT, maus <mausg@mail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2018-12-15, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, December 15, 2018 at 3:51:55 PM UTC-5, Andy Leighton wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > > Ironically, most kids in the scouts are too young to care about
>>>> > > such things. The extremists scream about a non-existent issue.
>>>> >
>>>> > Really? Isn't scouts really aimed at 11-17 year olds then (with
>>>> > Ventures going older and Cubs for those under 11). I would think
>>>> > that most people become aware of their sexuality when they are
>>>> > in that age range.
>>>>
>>>> The Cub Scouts start much younger.
>>>>
>>>> Kids lose interest in scouting as they get older, so they aren't
>>>> as many older kids in scouts.
>>>>
>>>> While some kids are aware of their orientation at a young age,
>>>> IMHO, most don't come to understand it until they are older
>>>> and beyond the age of scouting.
>>>>
>>>> I still maintain the typical Scout is too young to be aware of
>>>> that sort of thing or care.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> I strongly disagree.
>>
>> Do the Boy Scouts in Ireland have a policy toward gays? Or are you
>> just telling people in some other country how they should live their
>> lives when it doesn't affect you?
>
>
> I am affected when a young or even middle aged person of my aquaintance
> has mental problems because of being exploited by a pervert (of any
> persuasion) when young. A massive problem has emerged in the Scout
> movement here recently about that, over 400 complaints). I dont care if
> you are gay or whatever, children should be left alone.
>
> I am quite amazed that any person should think otherwise.

Admission of gay scouts and exploitation by a pervert are two separate
issues. Unless you are one of those who believes that all gays are
pedophiles.
Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378310 is a reply to message #378290] Sat, 15 December 2018 21:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: songbird

J Clarke wrote:
....
> Doesn't matter why they don't want them. The Federal budget is 3.8
> trillion dollars. If it was not run by FUCKING IDIOTS they've have
> put _some_ of it into a research program to permit recycling of that
> vast percentage of paper products that are "contaminated with food"
> instead of just burning it all.

worms will happily eat them up.


songbird
Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378311 is a reply to message #378269] Sun, 16 December 2018 05:58 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
<hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, December 15, 2018 at 3:40:42 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>>> Indeed, among conservatives, it is an article of faith that
>>> recycling and energy consumption is just a silly liberal hoax.
>>> I see many conservatives disdainfully discarding cans in the
>>> regular trash, not recycling, because of that. (In reality,
>>> cans are fully recyclable and that is good). They see living
>>> on an acre of ground and driving a big fat SUV as a God-given
>>> right that they're not about to surrender.
>>
>> Personally I don't have a problem with recycling cans, but they want
>> me to wash them first and I do have an objection to spending my free
>> time washing trash to make the government happy.
>
> all we are asked is to rinse the can out, which takes but a moment.
> No burden.

I would do this anyway so that the residual food waste doesn't sit around
and attract bugs or generate odors.

I do agree about the nitpicky regulations. At least now the recycling all
goes in together - a few years ago we had to separate paper from other
waste. Since many of the same people who push recycling also favor illegal
immigration, why not put the illegals to work sorting recycling and tossing
out all the McDonald's wrappers and pizza boxes?

>
> Cans (steel and aluminum) are fully recyclable. Doing so saves
> energy and the environment at no cost to us. Glass is also
> recyclable, but not so much is put in glass these days.
>

We try to buy stuff in glass to avoid parabens in plastic.

--
Pete
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