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This is slightly OT.... Serial to Pi [message #375600] Wed, 07 November 2018 22:01 Go to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Anthony Adverse

Has anyone had any joy hitching their computer up to a Pi of some sort with a ttl-232 adapter? Despite being able to get everything else I can test to work, I can only get gibberish out of the Pi.

Hoping someones got some pointers on what to poke to make it work. What makes it on topic is its meant to be me tcp router for a GS.

A
Re: This is slightly OT.... Serial to Pi [message #375726 is a reply to message #375600] Fri, 09 November 2018 18:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: coderipper

On Wed, 07 Nov 2018 19:01:13 -0800, Anthony Adverse wrote:

> Has anyone had any joy hitching their computer up to a Pi of some sort
> with a ttl-232 adapter? Despite being able to get everything else I can
> test to work, I can only get gibberish out of the Pi.
>
> Hoping someones got some pointers on what to poke to make it work. What
> makes it on topic is its meant to be me tcp router for a GS.
>
> A

I ran into a very similar issue about two years ago while attempting to
get TCPSER working on a Raspberry Pi in concert with my Apple IIgs.
Failure to obtain functional communication hinged on having a proper null
modem cable. Unfortunately, I found that many of the cables (even when
using an RS-232 null modem adapter with a IIgs standard modem cable) were
not wired properly to allow for the proper handshake.

Before getting too far along, the USB-Serial adapter that I am using is
kernel supported and is a cheapo generic Chinese adapter that has been in
my possession for probably ten years. You should have no trouble finding
one on the internet. It is automatically recognized by Raspian. When I
run 'lsusb' from the terminal, it outputs the following:

=====
coderipper@jetli:~$ lsusb
Bus 001 Device 009: ID 0403:6001 Future Technology Devices International,
Ltd FT232 USB-Serial (UART) IC
=====

Finding proper documentation for such a cable was difficult due to the
MINI-DIN8 connector for the IIgs serial port. There are several pinouts
for IIgs and Mac null-modem cables floating around in text files on the
internet and I tried most of them without success.

I found the following in a text file created by TCPSER author Jim Brain.
File located at: http://mirrors.apple2.org.za/ground.icaen.uiowa.edu/News/
tcpser

"Existing null-modem cables can be used with TCPSER, though TCPSER uses
the DTR line on the PC/workstation to emulate the DCD modem signal. Null
modem cables normally tie DCD and DSR together. If proper DCD support
is required and DSR must be high on the target platform, a small cable
modification that disconnects DSR from DCD and bridges to DTR may be
required. On target systems that float DSR high, simply pulling the DSR
pin on the null modem cable end that attaches to the target computer
will suffice."

I needed more information on the IIGS modem port (RS-422) because Apple's
signal naming on the 8-pin serial port bares little resemblance to
RS-232C. I reviewed the Hardware and Firmware references but there was no
information equating Apple's signal names with its RS-232C counterparts.
After a couple of days of fruitless searching, I started looking for
Macintosh serial port information and struck gold here: http://
terpconnect.umd.edu/~zben/mac/MacSerHard.html

Using Ben Cranston's documentation, I was able to fabricate a null modem
cable that functioned properly with TCPSER and the Raspberry Pi. The
pinout follows:

DIN-8 MALE DB25 MALE
HANDSHAKE OUT 1 0------------------0 8 CTS
HANDSHAKE IN 2 0------------------0 7 RTS
XMIT DATA - 3 0------------------0 2 RxD
SIG GROUND 4 0------------------0 5 GND (SIG)
RECV DATA - 5 0------------------0 3 TxD
XMIT DATA + 6 NO CONNECTION
GEN PURPOSE INPUT 7 0------------------0 1 DCD
RECV DATA + 8 0------------------0 5 GND (SIG)
+---0 6 DSR
+---0 4 DTR

Pins 6 and 4 must be shorted on the DB25 connector!

You can get the hard to find, mini-DIN connector at Digi-Key:
https://www.digikey.com/products/en?WT.z_se_ps=1&keyword s=cp-2080-nd

The Digi-Key PN is: CP-2080-ND.

Good luck, mate.
Re: This is slightly OT.... Serial to Pi [message #375749 is a reply to message #375726] Fri, 09 November 2018 19:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: R.Kiefer.SPAEM

coderipper wrote:

> You can get the hard to find, mini-DIN connector at Digi-Key:

It's horrible to solder Mini DIN8 connectors. Buy a (old) Macintosh
modem cable. Probably it fits perfectly. If not cut the SubD25 connector
and solder your own. This one is a bit easier to solder than Mini DIN,
IMHO.

The cable should be marked for modem use because these normally have a
full set of connections.

Regards,
Ralf
Re: This is slightly OT.... Serial to Pi [message #375750 is a reply to message #375726] Fri, 09 November 2018 19:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Polymorph is currently offline  Polymorph
Messages: 206
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Saturday, November 10, 2018 at 10:18:57 AM UTC+11, coderipper wrote:
> You can get the hard to find, mini-DIN connector at Digi-Key:
> https://www.digikey.com/products/en?WT.z_se_ps=1&keyword s=cp-2080-nd

Alternativley, you can buy pre-made cables here:
http://retrofloppy.com/products/

These are the cables recommended by ADTPro, so they should be reliable.

Cheers,
Mike
Re: This is slightly OT.... Serial to Pi [message #375758 is a reply to message #375749] Fri, 09 November 2018 20:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: coderipper

On Sat, 10 Nov 2018 01:05:59 +0100, Ralf Kiefer wrote:

> coderipper wrote:
>
>> You can get the hard to find, mini-DIN connector at Digi-Key:
>
> It's horrible to solder Mini DIN8 connectors. Buy a (old) Macintosh
> modem cable. Probably it fits perfectly. If not cut the SubD25 connector
> and solder your own. This one is a bit easier to solder than Mini DIN,
> IMHO.
>
> The cable should be marked for modem use because these normally have a
> full set of connections.
>
> Regards,
> Ralf

Your point about the difficulty with soldering the mini-DIN8 is valid
depending upon your skill level and soldering equipment used. I would
point out that I actually tried to avoid soldering the mini-DIN8 by
purchasing off-the-shelf modem cables with the intention of rewiring the
DB-25 termination but I found that not all of the (8) wires were
terminated at the mini-DIN8 which, of course, was problematic. I ended
up ordering connectors and doing the terminations, myself.
Re: This is slightly OT.... Serial to Pi [message #375813 is a reply to message #375600] Sat, 10 November 2018 23:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Egan Ford is currently offline  Egan Ford
Messages: 304
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 11/7/18 8:01 PM, Anthony Adverse wrote:
> Has anyone had any joy hitching their computer up to a Pi of some sort with a ttl-232 adapter? Despite being able to get everything else I can test to work, I can only get gibberish out of the Pi.

I use ttl to USB adapters frequently without issue. I just connect rx,
tx, and gnd to the correct pins on the GPIO header (but power from USB).
I have only used as a console (I do not use HDMI), nothing else.

This is the adapter I use:
https://www.amazon.com/FT232R-FT232RL-Serial-Converter-XYGSt udy/dp/B00DTRFKM4,
however I use the version with the micro usb port. The FT232R can do
3Mbit IIRC. I have one (NanoPI M4) system that I use it with at
1.5Mbit. However MacOS (usb side) cannot do better than 115200. Linux
no prob.

What are you testing, what have you tried?
Re: This is slightly OT.... Serial to Pi [message #375829 is a reply to message #375813] Sun, 11 November 2018 09:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hugh Hood is currently offline  Hugh Hood
Messages: 678
Registered: November 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 11/10/2018 10:07 PM, Egan Ford wrote:

>
> I use ttl to USB adapters frequently without issue. I just connect rx,
> tx, and gnd to the correct pins on the GPIO header (but power from USB).
> I have only used as a console (I do not use HDMI), nothing else.
>

Egan,

Please forgive me interjecting two questions on this, as well as my
general ignorance on this topic.

First, if I understand correctly, the adapter you referenced will pass
RS232 signals between a 5-12 volt level device and a 3.3 volt level device?

Second, I noticed that particular adapter also supports the CTS/RTS
handshake signals. Have you (or anyone else) found a way to support
those on the Pi's GPIO header for use by the Pi?

Thanks.





Hugh Hood
Re: This is slightly OT.... Serial to Pi [message #375836 is a reply to message #375829] Sun, 11 November 2018 11:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Egan Ford is currently offline  Egan Ford
Messages: 304
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 11/11/18 7:53 AM, Hugh Hood wrote:

> First, if I understand correctly, the adapter you referenced will pass
> RS232 signals between a 5-12 volt level device and a 3.3 volt level device?

It's between a 3.3 volt level device and USB (not 5-12 volt RS232). I
know I have something like you describe in my lab (max232-based), but I
cannot find it right now.

More info here if you want to roll your own:

https://www.sparkfun.com/tutorials/215

> Second, I noticed that particular adapter also supports the CTS/RTS
> handshake signals. Have you (or anyone else) found a way to support
> those on the Pi's GPIO header for use by the Pi?

https://ethertubes.com/raspberry-pi-rts-cts-flow-control/
Re: This is slightly OT.... Serial to Pi [message #375837 is a reply to message #375829] Sun, 11 November 2018 11:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Egan Ford is currently offline  Egan Ford
Messages: 304
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 11/11/18 7:53 AM, Hugh Hood wrote:

> First, if I understand correctly, the adapter you referenced

This is a picture of the actual adapter I use:

https://imgur.com/a/J8JB7B1

It's an old pic, you'll have to zoom. But, yes it also has CTS/RTS, but
I do not use it.
Re: This is slightly OT.... Serial to Pi [message #375842 is a reply to message #375600] Sun, 11 November 2018 16:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Anthony Adverse

On Thursday, November 8, 2018 at 2:01:14 PM UTC+11, Anthony Adverse wrote:
> Has anyone had any joy hitching their computer up to a Pi of some sort with a ttl-232 adapter? Despite being able to get everything else I can test to work, I can only get gibberish out of the Pi.
>
> Hoping someones got some pointers on what to poke to make it work. What makes it on topic is its meant to be me tcp router for a GS.
>
> A

I feel like I've been run over by a truck this morning, so I don't think I'll be getting to try anything today. However I think, code is on the money.... Give the line coming out of the the pi if you use the given header pins and adapter there is no rts/cts/dcd/dsr available just tx/rx .... the best I got out of that was a severely noisy line to the SSC. On the GS the has to convince itself that all the required handshaking is going on. I think I had DTR/DSR and CD all tied off the top of my head...

I think that trucks coming back for another pass, thanks for more possibilities to consider.

A
Re: This is slightly OT.... Serial to Pi [message #375855 is a reply to message #375836] Sun, 11 November 2018 18:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hugh Hood is currently offline  Hugh Hood
Messages: 678
Registered: November 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Egan,

Thanks a meg for the very complete answer along with the links. Those
were very helpful articles.

I wasn't aware that the newer Pi's contained a 40-pin GPIO header. That
really makes things easier when one wants to use hardware handshaking
and doesn't want to employ a USB-serial adapter in the chain.

Sorry I misunderstood about the adapter you mentioned. I suppose the
max232 would be the preferred method to use between say, an Apple II
with SSC, and a Pi's GPIO header.




Hugh Hood


On 11/11/2018 10:37 AM, Egan Ford wrote:
> On 11/11/18 7:53 AM, Hugh Hood wrote:
>
>> First, if I understand correctly, the adapter you referenced will pass
>> RS232 signals between a 5-12 volt level device and a 3.3 volt level device?
>
> It's between a 3.3 volt level device and USB (not 5-12 volt RS232). I
> know I have something like you describe in my lab (max232-based), but I
> cannot find it right now.
>
> More info here if you want to roll your own:
>
> https://www.sparkfun.com/tutorials/215
>
>> Second, I noticed that particular adapter also supports the CTS/RTS
>> handshake signals. Have you (or anyone else) found a way to support
>> those on the Pi's GPIO header for use by the Pi?
>
> https://ethertubes.com/raspberry-pi-rts-cts-flow-control/
>
Re: This is slightly OT.... Serial to Pi [message #375859 is a reply to message #375855] Sun, 11 November 2018 21:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Egan Ford is currently offline  Egan Ford
Messages: 304
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 11/11/18 4:58 PM, Hugh Hood wrote:

> I wasn't aware that the newer Pi's contained a 40-pin GPIO header. That
> really makes things easier when one wants to use hardware handshaking
> and doesn't want to employ a USB-serial adapter in the chain.

They updated it sometime ago. A welcome change.

> Sorry I misunderstood about the adapter you mentioned. I suppose the
> max232 would be the preferred method to use between say, an Apple II
> with SSC, and a Pi's GPIO header.

Yes. I used to use something like this:

https://www.amazon.com/Uxcell-a14041500ux1216-MAX232CSE-Tran sfer-Converter/dp/B00EJ9NAKA

However, you'd still be missing DTR, DCD, RI, DSR. I guess it depends
on the connection to SSC use case.

I'm not sure what benefit the GPIO pins have over USB to Serial outside
of the only use I have for them (boot console). Seems easier to me to
just use a USB to Serial adapter.
Re: This is slightly OT.... Serial to Pi [message #375861 is a reply to message #375726] Sun, 11 November 2018 22:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Anthony Adverse

On Saturday, November 10, 2018 at 10:18:57 AM UTC+11, coderipper wrote:
> On Wed, 07 Nov 2018 19:01:13 -0800, Anthony Adverse wrote:
>
>> Has anyone had any joy hitching their computer up to a Pi of some sort
>> with a ttl-232 adapter? Despite being able to get everything else I can
>> test to work, I can only get gibberish out of the Pi.
>>
>> Hoping someones got some pointers on what to poke to make it work. What
>> makes it on topic is its meant to be me tcp router for a GS.
>>
>> A
>
> I ran into a very similar issue about two years ago while attempting to
> get TCPSER working on a Raspberry Pi in concert with my Apple IIgs.
> Failure to obtain functional communication hinged on having a proper null
> modem cable. Unfortunately, I found that many of the cables (even when
> using an RS-232 null modem adapter with a IIgs standard modem cable) were
> not wired properly to allow for the proper handshake.
>
> Before getting too far along, the USB-Serial adapter that I am using is
> kernel supported and is a cheapo generic Chinese adapter that has been in
> my possession for probably ten years. You should have no trouble finding
> one on the internet. It is automatically recognized by Raspian. When I
> run 'lsusb' from the terminal, it outputs the following:
>
> =====
> coderipper@jetli:~$ lsusb
> Bus 001 Device 009: ID 0403:6001 Future Technology Devices International,
> Ltd FT232 USB-Serial (UART) IC
> =====
>
> Finding proper documentation for such a cable was difficult due to the
> MINI-DIN8 connector for the IIgs serial port. There are several pinouts
> for IIgs and Mac null-modem cables floating around in text files on the
> internet and I tried most of them without success.
>
> I found the following in a text file created by TCPSER author Jim Brain.
> File located at: http://mirrors.apple2.org.za/ground.icaen.uiowa.edu/News/
> tcpser
>
> "Existing null-modem cables can be used with TCPSER, though TCPSER uses
> the DTR line on the PC/workstation to emulate the DCD modem signal. Null
> modem cables normally tie DCD and DSR together. If proper DCD support
> is required and DSR must be high on the target platform, a small cable
> modification that disconnects DSR from DCD and bridges to DTR may be
> required. On target systems that float DSR high, simply pulling the DSR
> pin on the null modem cable end that attaches to the target computer
> will suffice."
>
> I needed more information on the IIGS modem port (RS-422) because Apple's
> signal naming on the 8-pin serial port bares little resemblance to
> RS-232C. I reviewed the Hardware and Firmware references but there was no
> information equating Apple's signal names with its RS-232C counterparts.
> After a couple of days of fruitless searching, I started looking for
> Macintosh serial port information and struck gold here: http://
> terpconnect.umd.edu/~zben/mac/MacSerHard.html
>
> Using Ben Cranston's documentation, I was able to fabricate a null modem
> cable that functioned properly with TCPSER and the Raspberry Pi. The
> pinout follows:
>
> DIN-8 MALE DB25 MALE
> HANDSHAKE OUT 1 0------------------0 8 CTS
> HANDSHAKE IN 2 0------------------0 7 RTS
> XMIT DATA - 3 0------------------0 2 RxD
> SIG GROUND 4 0------------------0 5 GND (SIG)
> RECV DATA - 5 0------------------0 3 TxD
> XMIT DATA + 6 NO CONNECTION
> GEN PURPOSE INPUT 7 0------------------0 1 DCD
> RECV DATA + 8 0------------------0 5 GND (SIG)
> +---0 6 DSR
> +---0 4 DTR
>
> Pins 6 and 4 must be shorted on the DB25 connector!
>
> You can get the hard to find, mini-DIN connector at Digi-Key:
> https://www.digikey.com/products/en?WT.z_se_ps=1&keyword s=cp-2080-nd
>
> The Digi-Key PN is: CP-2080-ND.
>
> Good luck, mate.

Thanks, I need more than my fair share... it looked clear but let me clarify 2 points...

at the DB25 end only 6&4 are tied together, and minidin int4&8 go to pin5 I think I misread and tied 456 together at the db25 chuckle. Good thing serial ports are hard to kill.

A
Re: This is slightly OT.... Serial to Pi [message #375875 is a reply to message #375861] Mon, 12 November 2018 02:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Anthony Adverse

On Monday, November 12, 2018 at 2:48:24 PM UTC+11, Anthony Adverse wrote:
> On Saturday, November 10, 2018 at 10:18:57 AM UTC+11, coderipper wrote:
>> On Wed, 07 Nov 2018 19:01:13 -0800, Anthony Adverse wrote:
>>
>>> Has anyone had any joy hitching their computer up to a Pi of some sort
>>> with a ttl-232 adapter? Despite being able to get everything else I can
>>> test to work, I can only get gibberish out of the Pi.
>>>
>>> Hoping someones got some pointers on what to poke to make it work. What
>>> makes it on topic is its meant to be me tcp router for a GS.
>>>
>>> A
>>
>> I ran into a very similar issue about two years ago while attempting to
>> get TCPSER working on a Raspberry Pi in concert with my Apple IIgs.
>> Failure to obtain functional communication hinged on having a proper null
>> modem cable. Unfortunately, I found that many of the cables (even when
>> using an RS-232 null modem adapter with a IIgs standard modem cable) were
>> not wired properly to allow for the proper handshake.
>>
>> Before getting too far along, the USB-Serial adapter that I am using is
>> kernel supported and is a cheapo generic Chinese adapter that has been in
>> my possession for probably ten years. You should have no trouble finding
>> one on the internet. It is automatically recognized by Raspian. When I
>> run 'lsusb' from the terminal, it outputs the following:
>>
>> =====
>> coderipper@jetli:~$ lsusb
>> Bus 001 Device 009: ID 0403:6001 Future Technology Devices International,
>> Ltd FT232 USB-Serial (UART) IC
>> =====
>>
>> Finding proper documentation for such a cable was difficult due to the
>> MINI-DIN8 connector for the IIgs serial port. There are several pinouts
>> for IIgs and Mac null-modem cables floating around in text files on the
>> internet and I tried most of them without success.
>>
>> I found the following in a text file created by TCPSER author Jim Brain..
>> File located at: http://mirrors.apple2.org.za/ground.icaen.uiowa.edu/News/
>> tcpser
>>
>> "Existing null-modem cables can be used with TCPSER, though TCPSER uses
>> the DTR line on the PC/workstation to emulate the DCD modem signal. Null
>> modem cables normally tie DCD and DSR together. If proper DCD support
>> is required and DSR must be high on the target platform, a small cable
>> modification that disconnects DSR from DCD and bridges to DTR may be
>> required. On target systems that float DSR high, simply pulling the DSR
>> pin on the null modem cable end that attaches to the target computer
>> will suffice."
>>
>> I needed more information on the IIGS modem port (RS-422) because Apple's
>> signal naming on the 8-pin serial port bares little resemblance to
>> RS-232C. I reviewed the Hardware and Firmware references but there was no
>> information equating Apple's signal names with its RS-232C counterparts..
>> After a couple of days of fruitless searching, I started looking for
>> Macintosh serial port information and struck gold here: http://
>> terpconnect.umd.edu/~zben/mac/MacSerHard.html
>>
>> Using Ben Cranston's documentation, I was able to fabricate a null modem
>> cable that functioned properly with TCPSER and the Raspberry Pi. The
>> pinout follows:
>>
>> DIN-8 MALE DB25 MALE
>> HANDSHAKE OUT 1 0------------------0 8 CTS
>> HANDSHAKE IN 2 0------------------0 7 RTS
>> XMIT DATA - 3 0------------------0 2 RxD
>> SIG GROUND 4 0------------------0 5 GND (SIG)
>> RECV DATA - 5 0------------------0 3 TxD
>> XMIT DATA + 6 NO CONNECTION
>> GEN PURPOSE INPUT 7 0------------------0 1 DCD
>> RECV DATA + 8 0------------------0 5 GND (SIG)
>> +---0 6 DSR
>> +---0 4 DTR
>>
>> Pins 6 and 4 must be shorted on the DB25 connector!
>>
>> You can get the hard to find, mini-DIN connector at Digi-Key:
>> https://www.digikey.com/products/en?WT.z_se_ps=1&keyword s=cp-2080-nd
>>
>> The Digi-Key PN is: CP-2080-ND.
>>
>> Good luck, mate.
>
> Thanks, I need more than my fair share... it looked clear but let me clarify 2 points...
>
> at the DB25 end only 6&4 are tied together, and minidin int4&8 go to pin5 I think I misread and tied 456 together at the db25 chuckle. Good thing serial ports are hard to kill.
>
> A

Gold Star for coderipper! I am now the proud owner of the worlds ugliest serial cable that works :) BTW: I gave away trying to use the serial ports out of the GPIO pins on the Pi and went to a USB->serial adapter as well. Soo all serial problems solvered! Happy happy joy joy
Re: This is slightly OT.... Serial to Pi [message #375923 is a reply to message #375600] Mon, 12 November 2018 12:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: James Davis

I uploaded "Apple-II 16-Pin Game-Port to IBM-PC Serial+Parallel Port Interfacing.zip" to Asimove a year and a half ago. It has some information that might be helpful to you all.

Also, IIRC, there were some interesting articles about RS232 interfacing of Apple II to Raspberry Pi in one of the Apple-Ring websites (Hackaday maybe?).
Re: This is slightly OT.... Serial to Pi [message #376002 is a reply to message #375861] Tue, 13 November 2018 10:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: coderipper

On Sun, 11 Nov 2018 19:48:23 -0800, Anthony Adverse wrote:

>
> Thanks, I need more than my fair share... it looked clear but let me
> clarify 2 points...
>
> at the DB25 end only 6&4 are tied together, and minidin int4&8 go to
> pin5 I think I misread and tied 456 together at the db25 chuckle. Good
> thing serial ports are hard to kill.
>
> A

That's correct. Pins 6 and 4 are shorted on the DB25 and are not
connected to the mini-DIN8.
Re: This is slightly OT.... Serial to Pi [message #376003 is a reply to message #375875] Tue, 13 November 2018 10:39 Go to previous message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: coderipper

On Sun, 11 Nov 2018 23:50:50 -0800, Anthony Adverse wrote:

>
> Gold Star for coderipper! I am now the proud owner of the worlds
> ugliest serial cable that works :) BTW: I gave away trying to use the
> serial ports out of the GPIO pins on the Pi and went to a USB->serial
> adapter as well. Soo all serial problems solvered! Happy happy joy joy

Congratulations, mate.
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