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My brain-breaking Apple /// masterplan [message #374013] Mon, 24 September 2018 20:31 Go to next message
Steve Nickolas is currently offline  Steve Nickolas
Messages: 2036
Registered: October 2012
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Senior Member
For some reason, my attempts to get a quick and dirty EHBASIC up on the
/// have not had the success that my attempts to do the same on the ][
have.

At any rate, I started writing a wrapper around which I am trying to put
together a sort of hybrid between a customized version of Apple ][ DOS 3.3
and some sort of BASIC interpreter running on it, with native support for
the functionality of the ///. I'm having a hell of a time bringing over
the rudiments.

Here's my musings.

The current plan is to have it run with bank 1 active at most times,
switching in bank 0 for graphics work, and while usually keeping it
disabled, enabling the RAM at C000-C4FF and C800-CFFF for a little extra
working space. Program memory would be bank 1 2000-9FFF (this is the only
area of RAM that is banked with other RAM). DOS functionality would be
integrated and BASIC would need to be rejigged to support that.

With the above caveats, room for the BASIC interpreter, including the
console and disk drivers, would be 1000-1FFF (of which I've filled up to
1271 so far), A000-FFCF and FFF0-FFF9; my intention is to reserve
0200-02FF for an input buffer like on the ][, have some kind of vectors
thing in 0300-03FF, then 0C00-0D7F or so for room for RWTS to work, then
0D80-0FFF for DOS buffers. 2000-9FFF in bank 0 would be reserved (but
could be used if no or not all graphics memory is needed); 2000-9FFF in
bank 1 would be used for the BASIC program; 2000-9FFF in bank 2 would be
used for variables. Or something like that. Alternatively maybe add a
memory test and use ALL the banks except 0. The "Alternate A" type would
be used to save BASIC programs.

Graphics features would need to be brought up to somewhere near GW-BASIC
level. I'd like to consider whether porting stuff from GW-BASIC might
provide torture testing.

If you add up what I've allocated for program space, that's 28K - should
be more than enough for a good BASIC interpreter.

-uso.
My brain-breaking Apple /// masterplan [message #374018 is a reply to message #374013] Tue, 25 September 2018 03:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Jorma Honkanen

Amazing. Hope you succeed.
Re: My brain-breaking Apple /// masterplan [message #374048 is a reply to message #374013] Tue, 25 September 2018 17:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: James Davis

Steve,

You have several of these Apple /// threads going lately.--Could you please combine them or preamble the newest one with links to the older ones?--So that one may review what you have already tried to do and understand better what you are trying to do. Why are you doing all of this anyway? Are there enough Apple ///s in the world to make it worth while?--Or, is it just a hobby for you?

Doesn't the Apple /// already have a way to work like an Apple II?--With legacy software?

James Davis
Re: My brain-breaking Apple /// masterplan [message #374050 is a reply to message #374048] Tue, 25 September 2018 17:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Steve Nickolas is currently offline  Steve Nickolas
Messages: 2036
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Tue, 25 Sep 2018, James Davis wrote:

> Steve,
>
> You have several of these Apple /// threads going lately.--Could you
> please combine them or preamble the newest one with links to the older
> ones?--So that one may review what you have already tried to do and
> understand better what you are trying to do.

They're all separate things. Not much that relates to "DOS 3.3 IPL"
relates to "ProDOS ///", and pretty much none of that relates to my
attempts to create a standalone BASIC tailored specifically to the ///'s
functionality rather than just running FPBASIC on it (although there are a
couple separate threads, to be fair, about getting the ///'s functionality
working, that are meant to build together into the big BASIC project - and
the DOS 3.3 IPL is part of it).

> Why are you doing all of this anyway? Are there enough Apple ///s in
> the world to make it worth while?--Or, is it just a hobby for you?

Why does anyone do anything on the 8-bit Apples?

> Doesn't the Apple /// already have a way to work like an Apple II?--With
> legacy software?

Yeah, but it's kneecapped. The idea of "Star Emulator" was to remove (or
reduce) this kneecap for 48K software; the idea of "ProDOS ///" was to
remove (or reduce) it for 64K ProDOS software, which doesn't run on the
/// at all as of yet.

I haven't even gotten into other ideas because they build on these ideas.
For example, until "ProDOS ///" is viable, I can't even consider trying to
port 128K ProDOS Apple ][ software to the ///.

(For the record, I actually use a peoper, semi-dedicated usenet client, so
I really have to go a long way out of my way to fetch any sort of "link"
from one thread to another.)

-uso.
Re: My brain-breaking Apple /// masterplan [message #374056 is a reply to message #374050] Tue, 25 September 2018 21:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Egan Ford is currently offline  Egan Ford
Messages: 304
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 9/25/18 3:59 PM, Steve Nickolas wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Sep 2018, James Davis wrote:
>
>> Steve,
>>
>> You have several of these Apple /// threads going lately.--Could you
>> please combine them or preamble the newest one with links to the older
>> ones?--So that one may review what you have already tried to do and
>> understand better what you are trying to do.
>
> They're all separate things.  Not much that relates to "DOS 3.3 IPL"
> relates to "ProDOS ///", and pretty much none of that relates to my
> attempts to create a standalone BASIC tailored specifically to the ///'s
> functionality rather than just running FPBASIC on it (although there are
> a couple separate threads, to be fair, about getting the ///'s
> functionality working, that are meant to build together into the big
> BASIC project - and the DOS 3.3 IPL is part of it).
>
>> Why are you doing all of this anyway?  Are there enough Apple ///s in
>> the world to make it worth while?--Or, is it just a hobby for you?
>
> Why does anyone do anything on the 8-bit Apples?

Steve,

I will *never* tire of your Apple /// exploits. The Apple ///, is still
(IMHO), the most fascinating machine from Apple.

Thanks.
Re: My brain-breaking Apple /// masterplan [message #374057 is a reply to message #374056] Tue, 25 September 2018 22:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Steve Nickolas is currently offline  Steve Nickolas
Messages: 2036
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Tue, 25 Sep 2018, Egan Ford wrote:

> Steve,
>
> I will *never* tire of your Apple /// exploits. The Apple ///, is still
> (IMHO), the most fascinating machine from Apple.

Agreed. Because it's both *like* and *unlike* the Apple ][... It's this
odd mutant freak. And it does some things no other Apple ][-compatible
can.

That's why I want to exploit its functionality.

-uso.
Re: My brain-breaking Apple /// masterplan [message #374072 is a reply to message #374057] Wed, 26 September 2018 09:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
David Schmidt is currently offline  David Schmidt
Messages: 993
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 9/25/2018 10:22 PM, Steve Nickolas wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Sep 2018, Egan Ford wrote:
>
>> Steve,
>>
>> I will *never* tire of your Apple /// exploits.  The Apple ///, is
>> still (IMHO), the most fascinating machine from Apple.
>
> Agreed.  Because it's both *like* and *unlike* the Apple ][... It's this
> odd mutant freak.  And it does some things no other Apple ][-compatible
> can.
>
> That's why I want to exploit its functionality.

+1. What James doesn't appreciate yet is the untapped potential it has,
and the obfuscation the Apple non-engineers layered on top of it to make
that potential hard to get to. It's a very rewarding puzzle to work.
Re: My brain-breaking Apple /// masterplan [message #374074 is a reply to message #374072] Wed, 26 September 2018 10:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Steve Nickolas is currently offline  Steve Nickolas
Messages: 2036
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Wed, 26 Sep 2018, David Schmidt wrote:

> On 9/25/2018 10:22 PM, Steve Nickolas wrote:
>> On Tue, 25 Sep 2018, Egan Ford wrote:
>>
>>> Steve,
>>>
>>> I will *never* tire of your Apple /// exploits.  The Apple ///, is still
>>> (IMHO), the most fascinating machine from Apple.
>>
>> Agreed.  Because it's both *like* and *unlike* the Apple ][... It's this
>> odd mutant freak.  And it does some things no other Apple ][-compatible
>> can.
>>
>> That's why I want to exploit its functionality.
>
> +1. What James doesn't appreciate yet is the untapped potential it has, and
> the obfuscation the Apple non-engineers layered on top of it to make that
> potential hard to get to. It's a very rewarding puzzle to work.

This.

Look at the font loader - that took a while to iron out. And that was
important to me breaking free of SOS.

The terminal driver code? That was so I could break free of the Apple ][
firmware. I'm trying to break free of all the chains and tap the
potential of the system.

Trying to create my own "DOS/BASIC" on the /// basically puts together a
lot of various stuff. Terminal code is first - then getting some sort of
programming environment - and a way to load and save stuff. That's what
I'm trying to iron out now.

-uso.
Re: My brain-breaking Apple /// masterplan [message #374117 is a reply to message #374072] Thu, 27 September 2018 21:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: James Davis

On Wednesday, September 26, 2018 at 6:21:11 AM UTC-7, schmidtd wrote:
> On 9/25/2018 10:22 PM, Steve Nickolas wrote:
>> On Tue, 25 Sep 2018, Egan Ford wrote:
>>
>>> Steve,
>>>
>>> I will *never* tire of your Apple /// exploits.  The Apple ///, is
>>> still (IMHO), the most fascinating machine from Apple.
>>
>> Agreed.  Because it's both *like* and *unlike* the Apple ][... It's this
>> odd mutant freak.  And it does some things no other Apple ][-compatible
>> can.
>>
>> That's why I want to exploit its functionality.
>
> +1. What James doesn't appreciate yet is the untapped potential it has,
> and the obfuscation the Apple non-engineers layered on top of it to make
> that potential hard to get to. It's a very rewarding puzzle to work.

I appreciate it! I just want to understand Steve's motivation for his efforts.
Re: My brain-breaking Apple /// masterplan [message #374118 is a reply to message #374074] Thu, 27 September 2018 21:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: James Davis

On Wednesday, September 26, 2018 at 7:44:30 AM UTC-7, Steve Nickolas wrote:
> On Wed, 26 Sep 2018, David Schmidt wrote:
>
>> On 9/25/2018 10:22 PM, Steve Nickolas wrote:
>>> On Tue, 25 Sep 2018, Egan Ford wrote:
>>>
>>>> Steve,
>>>>
>>>> I will *never* tire of your Apple /// exploits.  The Apple ///, is still
>>>> (IMHO), the most fascinating machine from Apple.
>>>
>>> Agreed.  Because it's both *like* and *unlike* the Apple ][... It's this
>>> odd mutant freak.  And it does some things no other Apple ][-compatible
>>> can.
>>>
>>> That's why I want to exploit its functionality.
>>
>> +1. What James doesn't appreciate yet is the untapped potential it has, and
>> the obfuscation the Apple non-engineers layered on top of it to make that
>> potential hard to get to. It's a very rewarding puzzle to work.
>
> This.
>
> Look at the font loader - that took a while to iron out. And that was
> important to me breaking free of SOS.
>
> The terminal driver code? That was so I could break free of the Apple ][
> firmware. I'm trying to break free of all the chains and tap the
> potential of the system.
>
> Trying to create my own "DOS/BASIC" on the /// basically puts together a
> lot of various stuff. Terminal code is first - then getting some sort of
> programming environment - and a way to load and save stuff. That's what
> I'm trying to iron out now.
>
> -uso.

Keep up the good work Steve.

I guess I'll just have to look/search for your other articles the old fashioned way. Then maybe I can get a better picture of the overall project.
Re: My brain-breaking Apple /// masterplan [message #374157 is a reply to message #374118] Sat, 29 September 2018 06:43 Go to previous message
erolfi is currently offline  erolfi
Messages: 55
Registered: December 2012
Karma: 0
Member
Good luck with your project, Steve!

Hopefully, your PRODOS /// will be ready by the time I will manage to fix my Apple /// :)
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