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Re: tablets and desktops was Has Microsoft [message #369254 is a reply to message #369238] Thu, 21 June 2018 22:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Thu, 21 Jun 2018 17:47:11 -0400, Peter Flass
<peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Questor <usenet@only.tnx> wrote:
>> On Wed, 20 Jun 2018 20:13:41 +0100, Gareth's Downstairs Computer
>> <headstone255.but.not.these.five.words@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> On 20/06/2018 18:54, Questor wrote:
>>>>
>>>> So do tell us, "Hancock4," what was your draft status during the Vietnam War?
>>>> Did you serve, or did you have a deferment? How many young men of your
>>>> acquaintance -- brothers, cousins, friends, neighbors -- went to Vietnam and
>>>> were killed or maimed?
>>>
>>> His status is irrelevant for anybody who sets out to travel around the
>>> World fully intent and prepared to kill his fellow man receives only
>>> his just deserts if he himself is killed or wounded.
>>
>> In this case, you can be excused of your ignorance about the politics of a
>> distant country fifty years ago.
>>
>> Many people with a favorable view of Nixon who supported his actions in
>> Southeast Asia were unlikely to be sent there themselves, nor were many of
>> their neighbors or acquaintences similarly at risk. The advantaged classes
>> could afford to exercise the loopholes: consider W.'s "service" in the National
>> Guard or the current rolling dumpster fire, Cadet Bone Spurs. Neither served in
>> Vietnam, although their lesser well-off peers did; both frequently engage in
>> belligerent militeristic rhetoric. One epithet for such people is
>> "chickenhawk." (You may not want to look this up on Urban Dictionary.)
>>
>> So what I asked, in essence, is if someone who thinks it's a shame that Nixon
>> has been rightfully relegated to the dustbin of history because of criminal
>> conduct and who inflicted suffering on thousands of innocent people, both in the
>> U.S. and in Southeast Asia as a result of policies pursued largely for political
>> gain, had any realistic expectation of experiencing some of that suffering
>> personally.
>
> Nixon did the China thing, which some think was good. Other than that, not
> so much. If you think recognizing China was a good thing, it shows that
> good things can come from bad people.

If China had not been recognized by the US and trade opened, they
would likely still be a very weak economy.

>
>>
>>
>> "I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who
>> have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who
>> cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation. War is hell."
>> -- General William Tecumseh Sherman
>>
>>
Re: tablets and desktops was Has Microsoft [message #369260 is a reply to message #369235] Fri, 22 June 2018 00:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anne &amp; Lynn Wheel is currently offline  Anne &amp; Lynn Wheel
Messages: 3156
Registered: January 2012
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Senior Member
hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
> In reading books both by and about McNamara, it sure seems Vietnam
> was a huge blunder based on political contingency (the Democrats didn't
> want to appear weak on communism*) and stupidity (the government
> was focused on other issues and purged all experts**).
>
> * When China fell to the communists, the Republicans made a major
> campaign issue about it, accusing the Dems of "losing China". The
> Dems were determined not to repeat that mistake, thus Kennedy and
> Johnson escalating the U.S. involvement. Johnson knew damn war
> the war was unwinnable, yet still escalated it to avoid a political
> loss.

re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018d.html#96 tablets and desktops was Has Microsoft

recent post
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018d.html#0 The Road Not Taken: Edward Lansdale and the American Tragedy in Vietnam

also references McMaster's thesis: Dereliction of Duty: McNamara, the
Joint Cheifs of Staff ... Johnson was advised that couldn't win Vietnam
(wasn't military issue) ... but in world opinion it was better to fight
and loose.
https://www.amazon.com/Dereliction-Duty-Johnson-McNamara-Chi efs-ebook/dp/B004HW7834/

post with lots of references LBJ had tapes of Nixon (treason) getting
North Vietnam to stall the Paris Peace talks (at least until after the
elections).
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017h.html#34 Disregard post (another screwup; absolutely nothing to do with computers whatsoever!)

recent post
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018d.html#89 The China Mission: George Marshall's Unfinished War, 1945-1947

also mentions Milton Miles book ("A Different Kind of War") ... 1st half
about setting up coastal watchers and then training guerrillas to fight
japanese ... 2nd half about oss & US army giving china to communists
(1943-1945). One of Miles criticsm was US Army vetoed incorporating a
large group of Chinese military into Nationalists and so then went over
to the communists. It was that Chinese military group that then fought
US in Korea.

and after Germany was defeated, US believed that it still needed Soviets
to defeat Japan ... and so there was some amount of placating Stalin.
In Manchuria there was 1.5M Soviets fighting 1M Japanese. By comparison
Okinawa, US had 600k fighting 76k Japanese.

other recent refs to Soviets, Japanese, and Manchuria:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018b.html#33 Olympics opening ceremony
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018c.html#45 Counterinsurgency Lessons from Malaya and Vietnam: Learning to Eat Soup with a Knife
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018c.html#82 The Redacted Testimony That Fully Explains Why General MacArthur Was Fired
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018c.html#107 Post WW2 red hunt

Marshall then retires and Truman sends him of as special Ambassador to
China to try and "fix" the situation. Then Marshall is SECSTATE
1947-1949 ... focused on Europe and Marshall Plan ... State turns out
white paper "absolving" State for giving china to communists.
https://archive.org/details/VanSlykeLymanTheChinaWhitePaper1 949

What if the Kuomintang Had Won the Chinese Civil War?
https://thediplomat.com/2015/12/what-if-the-kuomingtang-had- won-the-chinese-civil-war/

There would have been no Korean war, no domino theory, no vietnam?

--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970
Re: tablets and desktops was Has Microsoft [message #369261 is a reply to message #369219] Fri, 22 June 2018 00:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Quadibloc is currently offline  Quadibloc
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On Thursday, June 21, 2018 at 11:10:16 AM UTC-6, Questor wrote:

> You need to go a little further back in your history. The Vietnam war started
> in the mid-1800s when the French invaded and placed the region under colonial
> rule. Ho Chi Minh and the Viet Minh were fighting to get their country back.

Communism, in Vietnam, in Cuba, in China, in Russia has been a horrifying and
frightful system of tyranny. We should, properly, react to it as we do to
Nazism.

I wish the United States could have successfully defended South Vietnam against
Communist aggression without sending any American boys to fight there. However,
I can't think of a way they could have done this.

John Savard
Re: tablets and desktops was Has Microsoft [message #369262 is a reply to message #369218] Fri, 22 June 2018 00:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charles Richmond is currently offline  Charles Richmond
Messages: 2754
Registered: December 2011
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On 6/21/2018 12:08 PM, Questor wrote:
>
> [snip...] [snip...] [snip...]
>
> "I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who
> have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who
> cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation. War is hell."
> -- General William Tecumseh Sherman
>

"more blood, more vengence, more desolation..."

--
numerist at aquaporin4 dot com
Re: tablets and desktops was Has Microsoft [message #369263 is a reply to message #369241] Fri, 22 June 2018 00:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Quadibloc is currently offline  Quadibloc
Messages: 4399
Registered: June 2012
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Senior Member
On Thursday, June 21, 2018 at 3:47:13 PM UTC-6, Peter Flass wrote:
> <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:

> The South Vietnamese "desired" communism so much that hundreds of thousands
> fled to the US when Ho's cronies took over. Many who didn't leave were
> killed or underwent "re-education."

I'm glad that somebody else remembers the boat people.

John Savard
Re: tablets and desktops was Has Microsoft [message #369264 is a reply to message #369239] Fri, 22 June 2018 00:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Quadibloc is currently offline  Quadibloc
Messages: 4399
Registered: June 2012
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On Thursday, June 21, 2018 at 3:47:13 PM UTC-6, Peter Flass wrote:

> Hence my belief that the French have been the source of every bad thing
> that has happened in the last 200 years or so.

Hey, it was the *Germans* who sent Lenin to Russia from Switzerland.

John Savard
Re: meanwhile in eastern Asia, was tablets and desktops was Has Microsoft [message #369265 is a reply to message #369250] Fri, 22 June 2018 01:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charles Richmond is currently offline  Charles Richmond
Messages: 2754
Registered: December 2011
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Senior Member
On 6/21/2018 7:11 PM, John Levine wrote:
> In article <60832503.551309186.672615.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org>,
> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Nixon did the China thing, which some think was good. Other than that, not
>> so much. If you think recognizing China was a good thing, it shows that
>> good things can come from bad people.
>
> The fantasy that the Chiang government could re-invade the mainland
> and force out the communists had been obviously absurd for a decade,
> so someone had to do it.
>
> If Nixon had been able to hang on longer he'd probably have passed
> single payer healthcare, too. He was a very frustrating character,
> totally without morals who did a lot of bad stuff and a modest amount
> of good stuff.
>

Sort of like the German leader with the funny mustache... a small
amount of good things, a mountain of bad things!!!

--
numerist at aquaporin4 dot com
Re: tablets and desktops was Has Microsoft [message #369266 is a reply to message #369240] Fri, 22 June 2018 01:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charles Richmond is currently offline  Charles Richmond
Messages: 2754
Registered: December 2011
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Senior Member
On 6/21/2018 4:47 PM, Peter Flass wrote:
> Gareth's Downstairs Computer
> <headstone255.but.not.these.five.words@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On 21/06/2018 18:08, Questor wrote:
>>> On Wed, 20 Jun 2018 20:13:41 +0100, Gareth's Downstairs Computer
>>> <headstone255.but.not.these.five.words@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> On 20/06/2018 18:54, Questor wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > So do tell us, "Hancock4," what was your draft status during the Vietnam War?
>>>> > Did you serve, or did you have a deferment? How many young men of your
>>>> > acquaintance -- brothers, cousins, friends, neighbors -- went to Vietnam and
>>>> > were killed or maimed?
>>>>
>>>> His status is irrelevant for anybody who sets out to travel around the
>>>> World fully intent and prepared to kill his fellow man receives only
>>>> his just deserts if he himself is killed or wounded.
>>>
>>> In this case, you can be excused of your ignorance about the politics of a
>>> distant country fifty years ago.
>>
>> Not a relevant comment. No justification at all for killing your
>> fellow man. All wars have those who have greater understanding than
>> the sheep herds of the governments and who refuse to take part
>> in the wars that are organised.
>>
>>
>
> Some people deserve killing.
>

If everyone got to kill whomever they thought deserved killing... most
of the world's people would be dead I think!!!


--
numerist at aquaporin4 dot com
Re: tablets and desktops was Has Microsoft [message #369267 is a reply to message #369233] Fri, 22 June 2018 01:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charles Richmond is currently offline  Charles Richmond
Messages: 2754
Registered: December 2011
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On 6/21/2018 3:15 PM, Rich Alderson wrote:
> scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:
>
>> usenet@only.tnx (Questor) writes:
>
>>> Apart from the fifty-year remove, the only other reason that Nixon seems so
>>> acceptable now is that Republican presidents have monotonically and markedly
>>> been increasingly vain, venal, and incompetent. Nixon, through Reagan, W.,
>>> and the current monster, have pursued bellicose foreign policies that
>>> started or prolonged overseas military conflicts, engaged in criminal
>>> conspiracies far beyond anything the Democrats have done, advocated for a
>>> domestic agenda that hurt minorities and the poor, and incurred huge
>>> increases in the national debt.
>
>> That's quotable.
>
> Seconded.
>

And the Republican presidents have held back technical progress if the
could... so that the current crop of rich folks could keep selling the
same old crappy stuff!!! IMO the US needs to support developing
"alternative energy sources", though it may eclipse coal and oil
conglomerates...

--
numerist at aquaporin4 dot com
Re: tablets and desktops was Has Microsoft [message #369268 is a reply to message #369206] Fri, 22 June 2018 01:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charles Richmond is currently offline  Charles Richmond
Messages: 2754
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On 6/21/2018 8:41 AM, Dan Espen wrote:
> JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> writes:
>
> [snip...] [snip...] [snip...]
>
>> I volunteered just ahead of being drafted. Some of my classmates went
>> to Viet Nam, and came home in body bags. Some came home maimed. Some
>> came home with no physical injuries.
>
> Lots of those with no physical injuries were still badly messed
> up by the experience.
>

Yes! Those who return from war without physical injury... will *never*
be the same mentally. These war veterans pay that mental price for the
rest of their lives!


--
numerist at aquaporin4 dot com
Re: tablets and desktops was Has Microsoft [message #369269 is a reply to message #369239] Fri, 22 June 2018 01:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charles Richmond is currently offline  Charles Richmond
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Senior Member
On 6/21/2018 4:47 PM, Peter Flass wrote:
>
> [snip...] [snip...] [snip...]
>
> Hence my belief that the French have been the source of every bad thing
> that has happened in the last 200 years or so.
>

The British did more tan their share also. Remember Rhodesia, South
Africa, India/Pakistan, and others that were victims of English
colonialism. Both France and England mishandled their policies toward
the Nazis prior to Churchill taking charge of Britain. Remembering the
horrors of World War I, the leaders of Britain and France were reticent
to admit that World War II was already inevitable.

--
numerist at aquaporin4 dot com
Re: tablets and desktops was Has Microsoft [message #369272 is a reply to message #369263] Fri, 22 June 2018 01:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charles Richmond is currently offline  Charles Richmond
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On 6/21/2018 11:57 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Thursday, June 21, 2018 at 3:47:13 PM UTC-6, Peter Flass wrote:
>> <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>
>> The South Vietnamese "desired" communism so much that hundreds of thousands
>> fled to the US when Ho's cronies took over. Many who didn't leave were
>> killed or underwent "re-education."
>
> I'm glad that somebody else remembers the boat people.
>

Remember the boat people?!! We in the US live every day with the boat
people and their descendants!!! It seems the US inherits a wave of
people from every war that is fought.


--
numerist at aquaporin4 dot com
Re: meanwhile in eastern Asia, was tablets and desktops was Has Microsoft [message #369273 is a reply to message #369265] Fri, 22 June 2018 02:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bob Martin is currently offline  Bob Martin
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in 697354 20180622 060123 Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
> On 6/21/2018 7:11 PM, John Levine wrote:
>> In article <60832503.551309186.672615.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org>,
>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Nixon did the China thing, which some think was good. Other than that, not
>>> so much. If you think recognizing China was a good thing, it shows that
>>> good things can come from bad people.
>>
>> The fantasy that the Chiang government could re-invade the mainland
>> and force out the communists had been obviously absurd for a decade,
>> so someone had to do it.
>>
>> If Nixon had been able to hang on longer he'd probably have passed
>> single payer healthcare, too. He was a very frustrating character,
>> totally without morals who did a lot of bad stuff and a modest amount
>> of good stuff.
>>
>
> Sort of like the German leader with the funny mustache... a small
> amount of good things, a mountain of bad things!!!

Sounds like Brexit.
Re: meanwhile in eastern Asia, was tablets and desktops was Has Microsoft [message #369282 is a reply to message #369273] Fri, 22 June 2018 04:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charles Richmond is currently offline  Charles Richmond
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On 6/22/2018 1:52 AM, Bob Martin wrote:
> in 697354 20180622 060123 Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
>> On 6/21/2018 7:11 PM, John Levine wrote:
>>> In article <60832503.551309186.672615.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org>,
>>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> Nixon did the China thing, which some think was good. Other than that, not
>>>> so much. If you think recognizing China was a good thing, it shows that
>>>> good things can come from bad people.
>>>
>>> The fantasy that the Chiang government could re-invade the mainland
>>> and force out the communists had been obviously absurd for a decade,
>>> so someone had to do it.
>>>
>>> If Nixon had been able to hang on longer he'd probably have passed
>>> single payer healthcare, too. He was a very frustrating character,
>>> totally without morals who did a lot of bad stuff and a modest amount
>>> of good stuff.
>>>
>>
>> Sort of like the German leader with the funny mustache... a small
>> amount of good things, a mountain of bad things!!!
>
> Sounds like Brexit.
>

Yes! Like Brexit!

An optimizing compiler tries to compile a few very rare constructions
and compile them to good machine code... and compile the vast majority
of things in a crappy manner. NOT!!!

--
numerist at aquaporin4 dot com
Re: tablets and desktops was Has Microsoft [message #369285 is a reply to message #369240] Fri, 22 June 2018 05:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Gareth's Downstairs Computer

On 21/06/2018 22:47, Peter Flass wrote:
>
> Some people deserve killing.
>

No person A deserves to be killed because his mindset
differs from person B, for who is able to judge whether
A or B or neither is of value to the future of humanity?
Re: tablets and desktops was Has Microsoft [message #369289 is a reply to message #369254] Fri, 22 June 2018 06:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
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Senior Member
J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Jun 2018 17:47:11 -0400, Peter Flass
> <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Questor <usenet@only.tnx> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 20 Jun 2018 20:13:41 +0100, Gareth's Downstairs Computer
>>> <headstone255.but.not.these.five.words@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> On 20/06/2018 18:54, Questor wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > So do tell us, "Hancock4," what was your draft status during the Vietnam War?
>>>> > Did you serve, or did you have a deferment? How many young men of your
>>>> > acquaintance -- brothers, cousins, friends, neighbors -- went to Vietnam and
>>>> > were killed or maimed?
>>>>
>>>> His status is irrelevant for anybody who sets out to travel around the
>>>> World fully intent and prepared to kill his fellow man receives only
>>>> his just deserts if he himself is killed or wounded.
>>>
>>> In this case, you can be excused of your ignorance about the politics of a
>>> distant country fifty years ago.
>>>
>>> Many people with a favorable view of Nixon who supported his actions in
>>> Southeast Asia were unlikely to be sent there themselves, nor were many of
>>> their neighbors or acquaintences similarly at risk. The advantaged classes
>>> could afford to exercise the loopholes: consider W.'s "service" in the National
>>> Guard or the current rolling dumpster fire, Cadet Bone Spurs. Neither served in
>>> Vietnam, although their lesser well-off peers did; both frequently engage in
>>> belligerent militeristic rhetoric. One epithet for such people is
>>> "chickenhawk." (You may not want to look this up on Urban Dictionary.)
>>>
>>> So what I asked, in essence, is if someone who thinks it's a shame that Nixon
>>> has been rightfully relegated to the dustbin of history because of criminal
>>> conduct and who inflicted suffering on thousands of innocent people, both in the
>>> U.S. and in Southeast Asia as a result of policies pursued largely for political
>>> gain, had any realistic expectation of experiencing some of that suffering
>>> personally.
>>
>> Nixon did the China thing, which some think was good. Other than that, not
>> so much. If you think recognizing China was a good thing, it shows that
>> good things can come from bad people.
>
> If China had not been recognized by the US and trade opened, they
> would likely still be a very weak economy.
>

Exactly! And we wouldn't be flooded with so much cheap junk.

>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who
>>> have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who
>>> cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation. War is hell."
>>> -- General William Tecumseh Sherman
>>>
>>>
>



--
Pete
Re: tablets and desktops was Has Microsoft [message #369290 is a reply to message #369264] Fri, 22 June 2018 06:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
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Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> On Thursday, June 21, 2018 at 3:47:13 PM UTC-6, Peter Flass wrote:
>
>> Hence my belief that the French have been the source of every bad thing
>> that has happened in the last 200 years or so.
>
> Hey, it was the *Germans* who sent Lenin to Russia from Switzerland.

Okay, one little goof. Seriously, I think that most of the ills of the
twentieth century trace back to WW I, and the more I read the more I
realize that France was largely responsible. I won't get into details, but
France was so determined to get revenge on Germany for the Franco-Prussian
war (where, as usual, they got their hats handed to them) that they
established the system of alliances that attempted to exclude Germany, and
they encouraged Russia and Serbia. If the French had just stayed home and
ate foi gras and drank Bordeaux none of that unpleasantness had to happen.

>
> John Savard
>



--
Pete
Re: tablets and desktops was Has Microsoft [message #369291 is a reply to message #369268] Fri, 22 June 2018 06:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
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Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
> On 6/21/2018 8:41 AM, Dan Espen wrote:
>> JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>> [snip...] [snip...] [snip...]
>>
>>> I volunteered just ahead of being drafted. Some of my classmates went
>>> to Viet Nam, and came home in body bags. Some came home maimed. Some
>>> came home with no physical injuries.
>>
>> Lots of those with no physical injuries were still badly messed
>> up by the experience.
>>
>
> Yes! Those who return from war without physical injury... will *never*
> be the same mentally. These war veterans pay that mental price for the
> rest of their lives!
>
>

It seems to be even worse now. We save a lot more lives, but there's no way
to fix the mental and emotional damage.

--
Pete
Re: tablets and desktops was Has Microsoft [message #369292 is a reply to message #369272] Fri, 22 June 2018 06:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
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Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
> On 6/21/2018 11:57 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>> On Thursday, June 21, 2018 at 3:47:13 PM UTC-6, Peter Flass wrote:
>>> <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The South Vietnamese "desired" communism so much that hundreds of thousands
>>> fled to the US when Ho's cronies took over. Many who didn't leave were
>>> killed or underwent "re-education."
>>
>> I'm glad that somebody else remembers the boat people.
>>
>
> Remember the boat people?!! We in the US live every day with the boat
> people and their descendants!!! It seems the US inherits a wave of
> people from every war that is fought.
>
>

Another group who has come here and done pretty well, for themselves and
for us.

--
Pete
Re: tablets and desktops was Has Microsoft [message #369293 is a reply to message #369285] Fri, 22 June 2018 06:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
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Senior Member
Gareth's Downstairs Computer
<headstone255.but.not.these.five.words@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 21/06/2018 22:47, Peter Flass wrote:
>>
>> Some people deserve killing.
>>
>
> No person A deserves to be killed because his mindset
> differs from person B, for who is able to judge whether
> A or B or neither is of value to the future of humanity?
>
>

Not for their mindset, for their actions.

--
Pete
Re: tablets and desktops was Has Microsoft [message #369298 is a reply to message #369290] Fri, 22 June 2018 06:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Gareth's Downstairs Computer

On 22/06/2018 11:36, Peter Flass wrote:
> Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>> On Thursday, June 21, 2018 at 3:47:13 PM UTC-6, Peter Flass wrote:
>>
>>> Hence my belief that the French have been the source of every bad thing
>>> that has happened in the last 200 years or so.
>>
>> Hey, it was the *Germans* who sent Lenin to Russia from Switzerland.
>
> Okay, one little goof. Seriously, I think that most of the ills of the
> twentieth century trace back to WW I, and the more I read the more I
> realize that France was largely responsible. I won't get into details, but
> France was so determined to get revenge on Germany for the Franco-Prussian
> war (where, as usual, they got their hats handed to them) that they
> established the system of alliances that attempted to exclude Germany, and
> they encouraged Russia and Serbia. If the French had just stayed home and
> ate foi gras and drank Bordeaux none of that unpleasantness had to happen.

And then Britland having the mandate in the Middle East is responsible
for all the strife there since WWII, from the way in which the Earth was
carved up.
Re: tablets and desktops was Has Microsoft [message #369300 is a reply to message #369293] Fri, 22 June 2018 06:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Gareth's Downstairs Computer

On 22/06/2018 11:36, Peter Flass wrote:
> Gareth's Downstairs Computer
> <headstone255.but.not.these.five.words@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On 21/06/2018 22:47, Peter Flass wrote:
>>>
>>> Some people deserve killing.
>>>
>>
>> No person A deserves to be killed because his mindset
>> differs from person B, for who is able to judge whether
>> A or B or neither is of value to the future of humanity?
>>
>>
>
> Not for their mindset, for their actions.
>

The actions being part of the mindset.

Very little difference today between Yankland and the Nazis
from the way in which the native population of Diego Garcia
have been displaced for the Yanks' warmongering.
Re: tablets and desktops was Has Microsoft [message #369304 is a reply to message #369240] Fri, 22 June 2018 06:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
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On Thu, 21 Jun 2018 17:47:12 -0400
Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Some people deserve killing.

These ones (fortunately an empty set to date) I am sure of

a) Anyone trying to kill me
b) Anyone trying to kill someone I care about

Others less so.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
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Re: tablets and desktops was Has Microsoft [message #369306 is a reply to message #369298] Fri, 22 June 2018 07:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mausg is currently offline  mausg
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On 2018-06-22, Gareth's Downstairs Computer <headstone255.but.not.these.five.words@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 22/06/2018 11:36, Peter Flass wrote:
>> Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>> On Thursday, June 21, 2018 at 3:47:13 PM UTC-6, Peter Flass wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hence my belief that the French have been the source of every bad thing
>>>> that has happened in the last 200 years or so.
>>>
>>> Hey, it was the *Germans* who sent Lenin to Russia from Switzerland.
>>
>> Okay, one little goof. Seriously, I think that most of the ills of the
>> twentieth century trace back to WW I, and the more I read the more I
>> realize that France was largely responsible. I won't get into details, but
>> France was so determined to get revenge on Germany for the Franco-Prussian
>> war (where, as usual, they got their hats handed to them) that they
>> established the system of alliances that attempted to exclude Germany, and
>> they encouraged Russia and Serbia. If the French had just stayed home and
>> ate foi gras and drank Bordeaux none of that unpleasantness had to happen.
>
> And then Britland having the mandate in the Middle East is responsible
> for all the strife there since WWII, from the way in which the Earth was
> carved up.
>
That was from early WWI, Sykes-Pickard(sp)?..


--
greymaus.ireland.ie
Just_Another_Grumpy_Old_Man
Re: tablets and desktops was Has Microsoft [message #369309 is a reply to message #369269] Fri, 22 June 2018 09:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: JimP

On Fri, 22 Jun 2018 00:18:01 -0500, Charles Richmond
<numerist@aquaporin4.com> wrote:

> On 6/21/2018 4:47 PM, Peter Flass wrote:
>>
>> [snip...] [snip...] [snip...]
>>
>> Hence my belief that the French have been the source of every bad thing
>> that has happened in the last 200 years or so.
>>
>
> The British did more tan their share also. Remember Rhodesia, South
> Africa, India/Pakistan, and others that were victims of English
> colonialism. Both France and England mishandled their policies toward
> the Nazis prior to Churchill taking charge of Britain. Remembering the
> horrors of World War I, the leaders of Britain and France were reticent
> to admit that World War II was already inevitable.

And what King Leopold did to the Congo. He treated it like his
personal fiefdom. ( I don't remember which Congo, there were two of
them back then.)
Re: tablets and desktops was Has Microsoft [message #369317 is a reply to message #369214] Fri, 22 June 2018 10:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dan Espen is currently offline  Dan Espen
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JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> writes:

> On Thu, 21 Jun 2018 09:41:40 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> On Wed, 20 Jun 2018 17:54:24 GMT, usenet@only.tnx (Questor) wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 18 Jun 2018 10:34:53 -0700 (PDT), hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>>> >On Monday, June 18, 2018 at 6:44:01 AM UTC-4, Peter Flass wrote:
>>>> >> You wouldn't expect unbiased info from someone who was actually there in
>>>> >> the trenches. I think historians believe it takes a generation or so for
>>>> >> unbiased history to be possible.
>>>> >
>>>> >When it comes to history, how does one identify 'bias' and separate
>>>> >it out from fact?
>>>> >
>>>> >For instance, there remains great debate over FDR, his wife, his
>>>> >handling of the Depression and the New Deal, and his handling of
>>>> >WW II. Back then, many conservatives hated him, and indeed, many
>>>> >hate him and his policies to this day.
>>>> >
>>>> >His wife was also quite controversial. NBC for a while had on
>>>> >old broadcasts of Meet the Press--they had Nixon, Martin Luther
>>>> >King, and Eleanor Roosevelt, among other historical figures.
>>>> >Fascinating!
>>>> >
>>>> >ER said something I didn't like: in response to a question, she
>>>> >denied being an elder statesman and denied being a politician. In
>>>> >fact she was both and very much so. Even if she personally running
>>>> >for office or held a policy position, she was most certainly active
>>>> >behind the scenes and maintained a lot of influence in her party.
>>>> >
>>>> >Martin Luther King did a fantastic job in response to hostile
>>>> >questioning. Several guys kept challenging him along the lines
>>>> >of "don't blacks have enough now? Aren't you going too far?"
>>>> >King maintained he sought equal rights, not just a few rights.
>>>> >
>>>> >Nixon was sad to watch. His appearance was post Watergate.
>>>> >Curiously, in light of today's events, he said he wished he
>>>> >could've pardoned his top aides but it would've looked bad.
>>>> >He also made an excellent political analysis of the ongoing
>>>> >races, and everything he predicted in the broadcast came true.
>>>> >What a waste of talent.
>>>>
>>>> Nixon was a treasonous war criminal who illegally conspired with South
>>>> Vietnamese officials to prolong the war for his political benefit in 1968,
>>>> resulting in the needless death of thousands of young American men,
>>>> along with the waste of billions of dollars and the loss of some standing
>>>> around the world as it was revealed what a disaster Vietnam had become.
>>>
>>> Yeah, and Ford pardoned him to help America heal. I consider him
>>> really dumb for doing that. And I do believe Noxon, and his VP, along
>>> with his cabinet, are criminals.
>>
>> Not dumb, a traitor. Justice denied is no justice at all.
>
> I was refering to Ford's actions.

So was I.

>>> I volunteered just ahead of being drafted. Some of my classmates went
>>> to Viet Nam, and came home in body bags. Some came home maimed. Some
>>> came home with no physical injuries.
>>
>> Lots of those with no physical injuries were still badly messed
>> up by the experience.
>
> I've met a few, some of my former classmates.

Same here, friends, co-workers.

--
Dan Espen
Re: tablets and desktops was Has Microsoft [message #369318 is a reply to message #369253] Fri, 22 June 2018 10:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dan Espen is currently offline  Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
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Senior Member
J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:

> On Thu, 21 Jun 2018 09:41:40 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> On Wed, 20 Jun 2018 17:54:24 GMT, usenet@only.tnx (Questor) wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 18 Jun 2018 10:34:53 -0700 (PDT), hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>>> >On Monday, June 18, 2018 at 6:44:01 AM UTC-4, Peter Flass wrote:
>>>> >> You wouldn't expect unbiased info from someone who was actually there in
>>>> >> the trenches. I think historians believe it takes a generation or so for
>>>> >> unbiased history to be possible.
>>>> >
>>>> >When it comes to history, how does one identify 'bias' and separate
>>>> >it out from fact?
>>>> >
>>>> >For instance, there remains great debate over FDR, his wife, his
>>>> >handling of the Depression and the New Deal, and his handling of
>>>> >WW II. Back then, many conservatives hated him, and indeed, many
>>>> >hate him and his policies to this day.
>>>> >
>>>> >His wife was also quite controversial. NBC for a while had on
>>>> >old broadcasts of Meet the Press--they had Nixon, Martin Luther
>>>> >King, and Eleanor Roosevelt, among other historical figures.
>>>> >Fascinating!
>>>> >
>>>> >ER said something I didn't like: in response to a question, she
>>>> >denied being an elder statesman and denied being a politician. In
>>>> >fact she was both and very much so. Even if she personally running
>>>> >for office or held a policy position, she was most certainly active
>>>> >behind the scenes and maintained a lot of influence in her party.
>>>> >
>>>> >Martin Luther King did a fantastic job in response to hostile
>>>> >questioning. Several guys kept challenging him along the lines
>>>> >of "don't blacks have enough now? Aren't you going too far?"
>>>> >King maintained he sought equal rights, not just a few rights.
>>>> >
>>>> >Nixon was sad to watch. His appearance was post Watergate.
>>>> >Curiously, in light of today's events, he said he wished he
>>>> >could've pardoned his top aides but it would've looked bad.
>>>> >He also made an excellent political analysis of the ongoing
>>>> >races, and everything he predicted in the broadcast came true.
>>>> >What a waste of talent.
>>>>
>>>> Nixon was a treasonous war criminal who illegally conspired with South
>>>> Vietnamese officials to prolong the war for his political benefit in 1968,
>>>> resulting in the needless death of thousands of young American men,
>>>> along with the waste of billions of dollars and the loss of some standing
>>>> around the world as it was revealed what a disaster Vietnam had become.
>>>
>>> Yeah, and Ford pardoned him to help America heal. I consider him
>>> really dumb for doing that. And I do believe Noxon, and his VP, along
>>> with his cabinet, are criminals.
>>
>> Not dumb, a traitor. Justice denied is no justice at all.
>
> The Constitution defines treason rather narrowly. What particular
> provision did Nixon violate?

Ford.
Sold justice for personal gain.
Traitor to his country and our system of government.

--
Dan Espen
Re: tablets and desktops was Has Microsoft [message #369320 is a reply to message #369239] Fri, 22 June 2018 10:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dan Espen is currently offline  Dan Espen
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Registered: January 2012
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Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:

> Questor <usenet@only.tnx> wrote:
>> On Wed, 20 Jun 2018 12:44:57 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 1:13:47 PM UTC-6, Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote:
>>>> His status is irrelevant for anybody who sets out to travel around the
>>>> World fully intent and prepared to kill his fellow man receives only
>>>> his just deserts if he himself is killed or wounded.
>>>
>>> That would make sense if you were talking about someone travelling to a distant
>>> country to commit a murder or a robbery.
>>>
>>> Someone who has been conscripted by his country's government is surely less
>>> blameworthy.
>>>
>>> And when the "fellow man" that he is willing to kill is someone who travelled
>>> across a border to impose a cruel tyranny on the country he is invading - even
>>> though, no doubt, he is also a conscript - then your comment falls apart.
>>>
>>> For an understanding of the genuine issues in the Vietnam War, I would recommend
>>> "Deliver Us from Evil" by Dr. Tom Dooley, which shows the kind of atrocities the
>>> Viet Cong were engaged in.
>>
>> Dooley was a CIA operative, and many of the atrocities he wrote about were
>> fabricated or exaggerated. U.S. officials knew this, but their report was kept
>> classified until the 1980s. In short, his book was a work of propoganda, an
>> early effort in a long campaign of lies told to bolster support for the war.
>>
>> You need to go a little further back in your history. The Vietnam war started
>> in the mid-1800s when the French invaded and placed the region under colonial
>> rule. Ho Chi Minh and the Viet Minh were fighting to get their country back.
>>
>>
>>> Of course, if the United States did not truly care about the people of Vietnam -
>>
>> They didn't.
>>
>> Once again, the U.S. talks a good game about freedom, democracy, and
>> self-determination, but then sides with oppressors or dictators.
>>
>> The conflict between France and the Vietnamese people was sidelined during World
>> War II when Japan invaded. The OSS -- the precursor to today's CIA -- gave
>> supplies to Ho Chi Minh in an effort to undermine the Japanese. Because of this
>> help, the usual rhetoric about freedom etc., and in light of the anti-colonial
>> history of the U.S., after the war Ho Chi Minh thinks the U.S. will help him
>> kick out the French. He is wrong; we align with our WW II allies and back their
>> effort to re-colonialize Vietnam. So the U.S. was on the wrong side from the
>> beginning.
>>
>> After about ten years the French give up and leave. The U.S. stays on for
>> another twenty years after that and continues to repeat the same mistakes made
>> by the French as well as making some new ones. It's still not clear that the
>> American people have learned any lessons from the disaster.
>
> Hence my belief that the French have been the source of every bad thing
> that has happened in the last 200 years or so.

Is that 200 meant to exclude the American Revolution?

Picking on the French because they wouldn't support the 2nd Iraq invasion
is wrong, so wrong...

--
Dan Espen
Re: tablets and desktops was Has Microsoft [message #369321 is a reply to message #369261] Fri, 22 June 2018 11:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dan Espen is currently offline  Dan Espen
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Senior Member
Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> writes:

> On Thursday, June 21, 2018 at 11:10:16 AM UTC-6, Questor wrote:
>
>> You need to go a little further back in your history. The Vietnam war started
>> in the mid-1800s when the French invaded and placed the region under colonial
>> rule. Ho Chi Minh and the Viet Minh were fighting to get their country back.
>
> Communism, in Vietnam, in Cuba, in China, in Russia has been a horrifying and
> frightful system of tyranny. We should, properly, react to it as we do to
> Nazism.
>
> I wish the United States could have successfully defended South Vietnam against
> Communist aggression without sending any American boys to fight there. However,
> I can't think of a way they could have done this.

Since we were so confident about the superiority of Capitalism, we could
have just waited for the inferior system to fail.

Which was how things eventually turned out.

--
Dan Espen
Re: tablets and desktops was Has Microsoft [message #369326 is a reply to message #369320] Fri, 22 June 2018 11:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mausg is currently offline  mausg
Messages: 2483
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Senior Member
On 2018-06-22, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>> Questor <usenet@only.tnx> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 20 Jun 2018 12:44:57 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 1:13:47 PM UTC-6, Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote:
>>> The conflict between France and the Vietnamese people was sidelined during World
>>> War II when Japan invaded. The OSS -- the precursor to today's CIA -- gave
>>> supplies to Ho Chi Minh in an effort to undermine the Japanese. Because of this
>>> help, the usual rhetoric about freedom etc., and in light of the anti-colonial
>>> history of the U.S., after the war Ho Chi Minh thinks the U.S. will help him
>>> kick out the French. He is wrong; we align with our WW II allies and back their
>>> effort to re-colonialize Vietnam. So the U.S. was on the wrong side from the
>>> beginning.
>>>
>>> After about ten years the French give up and leave. The U.S. stays on for
>>> another twenty years after that and continues to repeat the same mistakes made
>>> by the French as well as making some new ones. It's still not clear that the
>>> American people have learned any lessons from the disaster.
>>
>> Hence my belief that the French have been the source of every bad thing
>> that has happened in the last 200 years or so.
>
> Is that 200 meant to exclude the American Revolution?

Gratitude, how are you!

> a
> Picking on the French because they wouldn't support the 2nd Iraq invasion
> is wrong, so wrong...
>

Chirac, in his memoirs, wrote that he didn't go because he considered
George W bat crazy, the book could not find a publisher in the US.


--
greymaus.ireland.ie
Just_Another_Grumpy_Old_Man
Re: tablets and desktops was Has Microsoft [message #369327 is a reply to message #369320] Fri, 22 June 2018 12:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andrew Swallow is currently offline  Andrew Swallow
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Senior Member
On 22/06/2018 15:58, Dan Espen wrote:
> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>> Questor <usenet@only.tnx> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 20 Jun 2018 12:44:57 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 1:13:47 PM UTC-6, Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote:
>>>> > His status is irrelevant for anybody who sets out to travel around the
>>>> > World fully intent and prepared to kill his fellow man receives only
>>>> > his just deserts if he himself is killed or wounded.
>>>>
>>>> That would make sense if you were talking about someone travelling to a distant
>>>> country to commit a murder or a robbery.
>>>>
>>>> Someone who has been conscripted by his country's government is surely less
>>>> blameworthy.
>>>>
>>>> And when the "fellow man" that he is willing to kill is someone who travelled
>>>> across a border to impose a cruel tyranny on the country he is invading - even
>>>> though, no doubt, he is also a conscript - then your comment falls apart.
>>>>
>>>> For an understanding of the genuine issues in the Vietnam War, I would recommend
>>>> "Deliver Us from Evil" by Dr. Tom Dooley, which shows the kind of atrocities the
>>>> Viet Cong were engaged in.
>>>
>>> Dooley was a CIA operative, and many of the atrocities he wrote about were
>>> fabricated or exaggerated. U.S. officials knew this, but their report was kept
>>> classified until the 1980s. In short, his book was a work of propoganda, an
>>> early effort in a long campaign of lies told to bolster support for the war.
>>>
>>> You need to go a little further back in your history. The Vietnam war started
>>> in the mid-1800s when the French invaded and placed the region under colonial
>>> rule. Ho Chi Minh and the Viet Minh were fighting to get their country back.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Of course, if the United States did not truly care about the people of Vietnam -
>>>
>>> They didn't.
>>>
>>> Once again, the U.S. talks a good game about freedom, democracy, and
>>> self-determination, but then sides with oppressors or dictators.
>>>
>>> The conflict between France and the Vietnamese people was sidelined during World
>>> War II when Japan invaded. The OSS -- the precursor to today's CIA -- gave
>>> supplies to Ho Chi Minh in an effort to undermine the Japanese. Because of this
>>> help, the usual rhetoric about freedom etc., and in light of the anti-colonial
>>> history of the U.S., after the war Ho Chi Minh thinks the U.S. will help him
>>> kick out the French. He is wrong; we align with our WW II allies and back their
>>> effort to re-colonialize Vietnam. So the U.S. was on the wrong side from the
>>> beginning.
>>>
>>> After about ten years the French give up and leave. The U.S. stays on for
>>> another twenty years after that and continues to repeat the same mistakes made
>>> by the French as well as making some new ones. It's still not clear that the
>>> American people have learned any lessons from the disaster.
>>
>> Hence my belief that the French have been the source of every bad thing
>> that has happened in the last 200 years or so.
>
> Is that 200 meant to exclude the American Revolution?
>
> Picking on the French because they wouldn't support the 2nd Iraq invasion
> is wrong, so wrong...
>
It is the French military that won the American Revolution.
Re: tablets and desktops was Has Microsoft [message #369329 is a reply to message #369298] Fri, 22 June 2018 13:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anne &amp; Lynn Wheel is currently offline  Anne &amp; Lynn Wheel
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Gareth's Downstairs Computer
<headstone255.but.not.these.five.words@yahoo.com> writes:
> And then Britland having the mandate in the Middle East is responsible
> for all the strife there since WWII, from the way in which the Earth was
> carved up.

re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018d.html#96 tablets and desktops was Has Microsoft
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018d.html#99 tablets and desktops was Has Microsoft

recent ref
http://www.garlic.com/2018c.html#59 America's War for the Greater Middle East: A Military History

.... recently rewatched first episode of Reilly, Ace of Spies on netflix
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reilly,_Ace_of_Spies

1901, he has stolen Russia oil surveys and brought them back England
.... the Navy was really interested in the middle east oil.

Churchill takes credit for the mess in the middle east, predates WW1,
navy switch from 13.5inch guns to 15inch guns required larger ship
needing switch from coal to oil

The World Crisis, Vol. 1, Churchill explains the mess in middle east
started before WW1, loc2012-14:

From the beginning there appeared a ship carrying ten 15-inch guns,
and therefore at least 600 feet long with room inside her for engines
which would drive her 21 knots and capacity to carry armour which on
the armoured belt, the turrets and the conning tower would reach the
thickness unprecedented in the British Service of 13 inches.

loc2087-89:

To build any large additional number of oil-burning ships meant basing
our naval supremacy upon oil. But oil was not found in appreciable
quantities in our islands. If we required it, we must carry it by sea
in peace or war from distant countries.

loc2151-56:

This led to enormous expense and to tremendous opposition on the Naval
Estimates. Yet it was absolutely impossible to turn back. We could
only fight our way forward, and finally we found our way to the
Anglo-Persian Oil agreement and contract, which for an initial
investment of two millions of public money (subsequently increased to
five millions) has not only secured to the Navy a very substantial
proportion of its oil supply, but has led to the acquisition by the
Government of a controlling share in oil properties and interests
which are at present valued at scores of millions sterling, and also
to very considerable economies, which are still continuing, in the
purchase price of Admiralty oil.

.... snip ...

Iran elected leader was going to review the Anglo-Persian contracts
.... CIA Confirms Role in 1953 Iran Coup
http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB435/
including
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kermit_Roosevelt,_Jr.
in
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9ta t
and to help keep the shah in power, US (including Norman Schwarzkopf
senior) trained
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAVAK
Savak Agent Describes How He Tortured Hundreds
https://www.nytimes.com/1979/06/18/archives/savak-agent-desc ribes-how-he-tortured-hundreds-trial-is-in-a-mosque.html

Iran eventually revolts against the horribly violent and repressive
British/American regime. US then backs Saddam/Iraq in the Iran/Iraq
war
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_War
including WMDs (note picture of Rumsfeld with Saddam)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Iraq_ during_the_Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_war

In the early 90s, Bush1 is president and Cheney is SECDEF. Sat. photo
recon analyst told white house that Saddam was marshaling forces to
invade Kuwait. White house said that Saddam would do no such thing and
proceeded to discredit the analyst. Later the analyst informed the
white house that Saddam was marshaling forces to invade Saudi Arabia,
now the white house has to choose between Saddam and the Saudis.
http://www.amazon.com/Long-Strange-Journey-Intelligence-eboo k/dp/B004NNV5H2/

WMD posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#wmd
military-industrial(-congressional) complex posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#military.industrial .complex

--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970
Re: tablets and desktops was Has Microsoft [message #369331 is a reply to message #369321] Fri, 22 June 2018 13:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
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Senior Member
On Fri, 22 Jun 2018 11:01:28 -0400
Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:

> Since we were so confident about the superiority of Capitalism, we could
> have just waited for the inferior system to fail.

Indeed and since they were so confident about the inevitability of
World Communism they could have just waited for the inferior system to
fail. It would certainly have made the 50s-80s a lot less stressful - and
cost us some good music.

> Which was how things eventually turned out.

The USSR ran out of steam first that's for sure, and it's not at
all clear that the West was in any danger of doing the same so yeah sounds
right.

It might have been interesting to see what would have happened if
the two systems had ignored each other and got on with building societies
instead of playing who has the biggest stick, but that was never on the
cards.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: post-war migrations, was tablets and desktops was Has Microsoft [message #369334 is a reply to message #369292] Fri, 22 June 2018 13:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
John Levine is currently offline  John Levine
Messages: 1405
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Senior Member
In article <27567399.551355077.264793.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org>,
Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Remember the boat people?!! We in the US live every day with the boat
>> people and their descendants!!! It seems the US inherits a wave of
>> people from every war that is fought.
>
> Another group who has come here and done pretty well, for themselves and
> for us.

Indeed. Remember that a century ago a lot of Americans didn't
consider Irish or Italians to be white because, among other things,
they're Catholics. Now we all drink green beer in March and eat pizza
every day and nobody cared what church Marco Rubio goes to.

I'm surprised that Vietnamese food hasn't become more common in the
U.S. but maybe I'm too impatient.

--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
Re: the mysterious east, was tablets and desktops was Has Microsoft [message #369338 is a reply to message #369289] Fri, 22 June 2018 13:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
John Levine is currently offline  John Levine
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In article <1442455386.551354357.297902.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org>,
Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:

>> would likely still be a very weak economy.
>
> Exactly! And we wouldn't be flooded with so much cheap junk.

I doubt it. European countries were already switching recognition
from Taiwan to the mainland so the only difference would be where the
greater trade ties were.

Apropos cheap junk, Americans vote with their wallets. We complain
about cheap Chinese junk, but given a choice between a cheap Chinese
product and a slightly more expensive American made one, we'll pick
the cheap one every time? Remember when Walmart said "Made in the
USA"? Probably not.

--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
Re: tablets and desktops was Has Microsoft [message #369339 is a reply to message #369317] Fri, 22 June 2018 13:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: JimP

On Fri, 22 Jun 2018 10:39:53 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
wrote:
> JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Thu, 21 Jun 2018 09:41:40 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 20 Jun 2018 17:54:24 GMT, usenet@only.tnx (Questor) wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >On Mon, 18 Jun 2018 10:34:53 -0700 (PDT), hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>>> >>On Monday, June 18, 2018 at 6:44:01 AM UTC-4, Peter Flass wrote:
>>>> >>> You wouldn't expect unbiased info from someone who was actually there in
>>>> >>> the trenches. I think historians believe it takes a generation or so for
>>>> >>> unbiased history to be possible.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>When it comes to history, how does one identify 'bias' and separate
>>>> >>it out from fact?
>>>> >>
>>>> >>For instance, there remains great debate over FDR, his wife, his
>>>> >>handling of the Depression and the New Deal, and his handling of
>>>> >>WW II. Back then, many conservatives hated him, and indeed, many
>>>> >>hate him and his policies to this day.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>His wife was also quite controversial. NBC for a while had on
>>>> >>old broadcasts of Meet the Press--they had Nixon, Martin Luther
>>>> >>King, and Eleanor Roosevelt, among other historical figures.
>>>> >>Fascinating!
>>>> >>
>>>> >>ER said something I didn't like: in response to a question, she
>>>> >>denied being an elder statesman and denied being a politician. In
>>>> >>fact she was both and very much so. Even if she personally running
>>>> >>for office or held a policy position, she was most certainly active
>>>> >>behind the scenes and maintained a lot of influence in her party.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>Martin Luther King did a fantastic job in response to hostile
>>>> >>questioning. Several guys kept challenging him along the lines
>>>> >>of "don't blacks have enough now? Aren't you going too far?"
>>>> >>King maintained he sought equal rights, not just a few rights.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>Nixon was sad to watch. His appearance was post Watergate.
>>>> >>Curiously, in light of today's events, he said he wished he
>>>> >>could've pardoned his top aides but it would've looked bad.
>>>> >>He also made an excellent political analysis of the ongoing
>>>> >>races, and everything he predicted in the broadcast came true.
>>>> >>What a waste of talent.
>>>> >
>>>> >Nixon was a treasonous war criminal who illegally conspired with South
>>>> >Vietnamese officials to prolong the war for his political benefit in 1968,
>>>> >resulting in the needless death of thousands of young American men,
>>>> >along with the waste of billions of dollars and the loss of some standing
>>>> >around the world as it was revealed what a disaster Vietnam had become.
>>>>
>>>> Yeah, and Ford pardoned him to help America heal. I consider him
>>>> really dumb for doing that. And I do believe Noxon, and his VP, along
>>>> with his cabinet, are criminals.
>>>
>>> Not dumb, a traitor. Justice denied is no justice at all.
>>
>> I was refering to Ford's actions.
>
> So was I.

Got it.

>>>> I volunteered just ahead of being drafted. Some of my classmates went
>>>> to Viet Nam, and came home in body bags. Some came home maimed. Some
>>>> came home with no physical injuries.
>>>
>>> Lots of those with no physical injuries were still badly messed
>>> up by the experience.
>>
>> I've met a few, some of my former classmates.
>
> Same here, friends, co-workers.

Some seemed to be fine. I don't go to class reunions though. From what
I gathered from the web site, its mostly those I didn't get along with
back then. My relatives have tried to convince me they would be
different, but I don't think so.
Re: tablets and desktops was Has Microsoft [message #369340 is a reply to message #369298] Fri, 22 June 2018 13:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
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Gareth's Downstairs Computer
<headstone255.but.not.these.five.words@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 22/06/2018 11:36, Peter Flass wrote:
>> Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>> On Thursday, June 21, 2018 at 3:47:13 PM UTC-6, Peter Flass wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hence my belief that the French have been the source of every bad thing
>>>> that has happened in the last 200 years or so.
>>>
>>> Hey, it was the *Germans* who sent Lenin to Russia from Switzerland.
>>
>> Okay, one little goof. Seriously, I think that most of the ills of the
>> twentieth century trace back to WW I, and the more I read the more I
>> realize that France was largely responsible. I won't get into details, but
>> France was so determined to get revenge on Germany for the Franco-Prussian
>> war (where, as usual, they got their hats handed to them) that they
>> established the system of alliances that attempted to exclude Germany, and
>> they encouraged Russia and Serbia. If the French had just stayed home and
>> ate foi gras and drank Bordeaux none of that unpleasantness had to happen.
>
> And then Britland having the mandate in the Middle East is responsible
> for all the strife there since WWII, from the way in which the Earth was
> carved up.
>
>

French there too -- Syria and Lebanon.

--
Pete
Re: tablets and desktops was Has Microsoft [message #369341 is a reply to message #369300] Fri, 22 June 2018 13:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
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Gareth's Downstairs Computer
<headstone255.but.not.these.five.words@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 22/06/2018 11:36, Peter Flass wrote:
>> Gareth's Downstairs Computer
>> <headstone255.but.not.these.five.words@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> On 21/06/2018 22:47, Peter Flass wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Some people deserve killing.
>>>>
>>>
>>> No person A deserves to be killed because his mindset
>>> differs from person B, for who is able to judge whether
>>> A or B or neither is of value to the future of humanity?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Not for their mindset, for their actions.
>>
>
> The actions being part of the mindset.
>
> Very little difference today between Yankland and the Nazis
> from the way in which the native population of Diego Garcia
> have been displaced for the Yanks' warmongering.
>

That's actually the Brits, but, heck, we could give each one of all ten of
them a penthouse in Miami.

--
Pete
Re: tablets and desktops was Has Microsoft [message #369342 is a reply to message #369320] Fri, 22 June 2018 13:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
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Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>> Questor <usenet@only.tnx> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 20 Jun 2018 12:44:57 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 1:13:47 PM UTC-6, Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote:
>>>> > His status is irrelevant for anybody who sets out to travel around the
>>>> > World fully intent and prepared to kill his fellow man receives only
>>>> > his just deserts if he himself is killed or wounded.
>>>>
>>>> That would make sense if you were talking about someone travelling to a distant
>>>> country to commit a murder or a robbery.
>>>>
>>>> Someone who has been conscripted by his country's government is surely less
>>>> blameworthy.
>>>>
>>>> And when the "fellow man" that he is willing to kill is someone who travelled
>>>> across a border to impose a cruel tyranny on the country he is invading - even
>>>> though, no doubt, he is also a conscript - then your comment falls apart.
>>>>
>>>> For an understanding of the genuine issues in the Vietnam War, I would recommend
>>>> "Deliver Us from Evil" by Dr. Tom Dooley, which shows the kind of atrocities the
>>>> Viet Cong were engaged in.
>>>
>>> Dooley was a CIA operative, and many of the atrocities he wrote about were
>>> fabricated or exaggerated. U.S. officials knew this, but their report was kept
>>> classified until the 1980s. In short, his book was a work of propoganda, an
>>> early effort in a long campaign of lies told to bolster support for the war.
>>>
>>> You need to go a little further back in your history. The Vietnam war started
>>> in the mid-1800s when the French invaded and placed the region under colonial
>>> rule. Ho Chi Minh and the Viet Minh were fighting to get their country back.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Of course, if the United States did not truly care about the people of Vietnam -
>>>
>>> They didn't.
>>>
>>> Once again, the U.S. talks a good game about freedom, democracy, and
>>> self-determination, but then sides with oppressors or dictators.
>>>
>>> The conflict between France and the Vietnamese people was sidelined during World
>>> War II when Japan invaded. The OSS -- the precursor to today's CIA -- gave
>>> supplies to Ho Chi Minh in an effort to undermine the Japanese. Because of this
>>> help, the usual rhetoric about freedom etc., and in light of the anti-colonial
>>> history of the U.S., after the war Ho Chi Minh thinks the U.S. will help him
>>> kick out the French. He is wrong; we align with our WW II allies and back their
>>> effort to re-colonialize Vietnam. So the U.S. was on the wrong side from the
>>> beginning.
>>>
>>> After about ten years the French give up and leave. The U.S. stays on for
>>> another twenty years after that and continues to repeat the same mistakes made
>>> by the French as well as making some new ones. It's still not clear that the
>>> American people have learned any lessons from the disaster.
>>
>> Hence my belief that the French have been the source of every bad thing
>> that has happened in the last 200 years or so.
>
> Is that 200 meant to exclude the American Revolution?

Yes, although they didn't help us out of altruism, but to tweak the
British.

>
> Picking on the French because they wouldn't support the 2nd Iraq invasion
> is wrong, so wrong...
>

There wouldn't have had to have been a _first_ Iraq invasion if things
there weren't so messed up.


--
Pete
Re: tablets and desktops was Has Microsoft [message #369343 is a reply to message #369331] Fri, 22 June 2018 13:56 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
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Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Jun 2018 11:01:28 -0400
> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Since we were so confident about the superiority of Capitalism, we could
>> have just waited for the inferior system to fail.
>
> Indeed and since they were so confident about the inevitability of
> World Communism they could have just waited for the inferior system to
> fail. It would certainly have made the 50s-80s a lot less stressful - and
> cost us some good music.
>
>> Which was how things eventually turned out.
>
> The USSR ran out of steam first that's for sure, and it's not at
> all clear that the West was in any danger of doing the same so yeah sounds
> right.
>
> It might have been interesting to see what would have happened if
> the two systems had ignored each other and got on with building societies
> instead of playing who has the biggest stick, but that was never on the
> cards.
>

It seems like it's not Communism, but simply Russia that's the problem. I'm
not really sure why we can't just all get along, but it seems like if we
say "black" they say "gold" automatically. Geopolitically there really
shouldn't be many conflicts of interest.

--
Pete
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