| Do you feel IIgs has the same allure as the II? [message #368682] |
Tue, 05 June 2018 22:41  |
|
|
Originally posted by: Matthew Power
I personally find that using my IIgs, while a beautiful machine, causes me to focus more on the mouse-driven gui and experimenting with adds to that whereas my IIe makes me think more about writing software (not very good, I admit) and getting closer to the machine.
I'm curious to know if others bounce between the two machines.
|
|
|
|
| Re: Do you feel IIgs has the same allure as the II? [message #368708 is a reply to message #368682] |
Wed, 06 June 2018 10:08  |
|
|
Originally posted by: frank_o_rama
For me, the //gs feels like an abstraction of the older models (which I guess it is). I really don't like how ctrl-reset feels like a request rather than a command. Sound from 8-bit software frequently sounds "off". It does have better audio/video, clock speed, ergonomics, and the built in real-time clock is also nice. It has a sleek look but takes forever to boot up. All in all I prefer the older machines, for the same reasons you specify, but that's just me!
f
|
|
|
|
| Re: Do you feel IIgs has the same allure as the II? [message #368726 is a reply to message #368682] |
Wed, 06 June 2018 13:47 |
|
|
Originally posted by: Mark D. Overholser
On 05-Jun-18 19:41, Matthew Power wrote:
> I personally find that using my IIgs, while a beautiful machine,
> causes me to focus more on the mouse-driven gui and experimenting
> with adds to that whereas my IIe makes me think more about writing
> software (not very good, I admit) and getting closer to the machine.
>
> I'm curious to know if others bounce between the two machines.
>
My first Apple ][ was the ][ I owned was the ][e over the ][gs..
MarkO
|
|
|
|
| Re: Do you feel IIgs has the same allure as the II? [message #368727 is a reply to message #368682] |
Wed, 06 June 2018 15:18 |
|
|
Originally posted by: as4565683
Am Mittwoch, 6. Juni 2018 04:41:34 UTC+2 schrieb Matthew Power:
> I personally find that using my IIgs, while a beautiful machine, causes me to focus more on the mouse-driven gui and experimenting with adds to that whereas my IIe makes me think more about writing software (not very good, I admit) and getting closer to the machine.
>
> I'm curious to know if others bounce between the two machines.
Left the IIe a long time ago, never looked back. If you use Apple II software on the GS, the machine is just what you wanted: Fast, with loads of RAM. And with an always accessible control panel. Why would I want to go back to a IIe?
Used to program the IIGS in ProDOS 8 with a RamFAST SCSI. Booting that machine was faster than any other machine. Even today, modern PCs with SSDs haven't cought up yet.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Do you feel IIgs has the same allure as the II? [message #368731 is a reply to message #368682] |
Wed, 06 June 2018 16:29 |
|
|
Originally posted by: John Brooks
On Tuesday, June 5, 2018 at 7:41:34 PM UTC-7, Matthew Power wrote:
> I personally find that using my IIgs, while a beautiful machine, causes me to focus more on the mouse-driven gui and experimenting with adds to that whereas my IIe makes me think more about writing software (not very good, I admit) and getting closer to the machine.
>
> I'm curious to know if others bounce between the two machines.
I use the GS as a 'super ][' and boot into ProDOS 8.
Big improvements of a GS over using a //e or IIc:
1) Better monitor: ascii+hex display, 16 hex bytes per line in 80 column, display & change bytes in the language card banks, mini-asm, fill memory range, search memory for a byte string, verify two memory regions match.
2) Built-in peripherals: clock, 2x 230k baud serial ports, /RAM5 ramdisk, mouse, 3.5" & 5.25" floppies, ROM disk. ADB lets you change keyboards/mice/trackballs and use extended keyboards.
3) CDA Control panel lets you interrupt running programs and: drop into the monitor to look around or patch bytes, change CFFA disk images, text/border colors, keyboard repeat speed, audio volume, international fonts, and/or run your own CDA programs.
4) Multiple 64k banks of RAM, extra 65816 opcodes (8 & 16 bit), 2.8 MHz, 8MB max ram, multiple IRQ sources.
5) Ensoniq audio is super-duper, way better audio vs Apple II.
6) SHR 320 res & 640 res graphics are much nicer than hires or double-hires graphics.
7) Can run GS/OS, Finder and 'Mac-like' apps.
I install GS/OS, but then rename PRODOS to GSOS, and install ProDOS 8 and boot into ProDOS 8 every time, running GS/OS from Bitsy Bye or Prosel only occasionally.
-JB
@JBrooksBSI
|
|
|
|
| Re: Do you feel IIgs has the same allure as the II? [message #368732 is a reply to message #368731] |
Wed, 06 June 2018 16:55 |
David Schmidt
Messages: 993
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On 6/6/2018 4:29 PM, John Brooks wrote:
> [...]
> I install GS/OS, but then rename PRODOS to GSOS, and install ProDOS 8 and boot into ProDOS 8 every time, running GS/OS from Bitsy Bye or Prosel only occasionally.
This is brilliant. I normally power up my IIgs and hit '8' to get to
ProDOS 8 because 99.62% of the time that's what I want to do. This
solves that problem for me.
My GS is just a fast II+ as far as I'm concerned too - with lots of nice
peripherals like Uthernet, Serial, and CFFA3000. It's what I use when I
have "real work" to do, and has a permanent home on the bench. I
started out life with a 32k II+ in high school, so that's what's more
meaningful to me - and really different than a GS. These fancy faster
machines with their highfalutin 80 columns and lowercase and whatnot
just aren't the same. So the GS does the grunt work in the lab. But if
I want a true Apple II experience, I get one of the older machines out.
|
|
|
|
| Re: Do you feel IIgs has the same allure as the II? [message #368733 is a reply to message #368682] |
Wed, 06 June 2018 17:02 |
David Schmenk
Messages: 374
Registered: December 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On Tuesday, 5 June 2018 19:41:34 UTC-7, Matthew Power wrote:
> I personally find that using my IIgs, while a beautiful machine, causes me to focus more on the mouse-driven gui and experimenting with adds to that whereas my IIe makes me think more about writing software (not very good, I admit) and getting closer to the machine.
>
> I'm curious to know if others bounce between the two machines.
I'm like John. As a Mac-like computer, I find it frustratingly slow - even with a modest accelerator. However, when used as a stealth //e (yes, I have an official and unofficial version) running under Prodos 8, it is a fine upgrade to the //e. The performance pop is nice, and access to the advanced graphics and sound is cool. The one downside is the broken double-buffered low res graphics on the ROM1 and broken double-buffered double lores graphics on all which are modes I like to play with a lot.
Dave...
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Do you feel IIgs has the same allure as the II? [message #368819 is a reply to message #368805] |
Thu, 07 June 2018 18:44 |
|
|
Originally posted by: John Brooks
On Thursday, June 7, 2018 at 1:17:50 PM UTC-7, Oregonian Haruspex wrote:
> The IIgs is obviously the ultimate Apple II and I don’t see any reason to
> fool with the older models.
To be fair, there are a handful of GS shortcomings:
1) GR, HGR, & DHGR are different:
The GS generates RGB approximations of Apple ][ NTSC graphics modes, so there is some loss of color accuracy and NTSC artifact behavior compared to earlier Apple II models.
2) Missing text/gr page 2 shadowing (as mentioned by Dave Schmenk above)
3) No tape(audio) input port
4) 65816 has slightly different behavior (ie, incompatibility) in some cases vs 6502/65c02 (illegal opcodes, etc)
5) Slot cards can have some compatibility problems (Saturn 16K+ ram cards, multifunction cards that expect every CPU cycle to be visible on the slot bus, DMA is tricky)
6) Keyboard layout and feel is a bit different than earlier Apple II models, and keyboard is not integrated (if you prefer that)
7) GS is incompatible with Ramworks-style multiple aux 64k banks code
-JB
@JBrooksBSI
|
|
|
|
| Re: Do you feel IIgs has the same allure as the II? [message #368823 is a reply to message #368682] |
Fri, 08 June 2018 01:25 |
Polymorph
Messages: 206
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On Wednesday, June 6, 2018 at 12:41:34 PM UTC+10, Matthew Power wrote:
> I personally find that using my IIgs, while a beautiful machine, causes me to focus more on the mouse-driven gui and experimenting with adds to that whereas my IIe makes me think more about writing software (not very good, I admit) and getting closer to the machine.
>
> I'm curious to know if others bounce between the two machines.
As with most things, its a matter of horses-for-courses. Some people dismiss the IIgs as being a Mac with hardware emulation of the earlier Apple II's.. Some people (myself included) see the IIgs as a natural progression for the Apple II line - maintaining compatibility with the past whilst adding lot's of bells and whistles.
Back in the day, I grew up with a II+ (clone) first before upgrading to a //e, whilst a friend of mine had upgraded from a //c to a IIgs. So when I returned to vintage computing circa 2006, not only did I pull out my old faithful //e from storage, but I had an acute desire to get a IIgs and see what this machine could really do.
I have to say, I was incredibly impressed with what the IIgs could do - particularly in the graphics & sound department. By 1992 I had moved onto IBM compatibles and whilst the graphics on IBM's around this time (Super VGA) was vastly superior to the IIgs, it would take me several years before I would get a sound card for my IBM clone that would beat the IIgs's inbuilt sound capabilities. And this from a machine released in 1986. No mean feat indeed!
When I got my IIgs I was also keen to learn how to write programs for it. TML/Complete Pascal was my ticket (as I was too lazy to learn 65816 assembler) even though I hadn't programmed in Pascal since the early 90's. It was still close enough to the C-style languages I was familiar with that I could pick it up and run with it.
But as I say, it's up to each individual as to which way they lean...
Anyway that's my 2c worth,
Mike
http://apple2.sytes.net/
ps. don't get me wrong, I still love the 8 bitters too!
|
|
|
|
| Re: Do you feel IIgs has the same allure as the II? [message #368829 is a reply to message #368819] |
Fri, 08 June 2018 03:43 |
olivier.zardini
Messages: 51
Registered: August 2013
Karma: 0
|
Member |
|
|
Le vendredi 8 juin 2018 00:44:04 UTC+2, John Brooks a écrit :
> 6) Keyboard layout and feel is a bit different than earlier Apple II models, and keyboard is not integrated (if you prefer that)
You can also consider the upgrade of the motherboard to keep the IIgs into a IIe case. So you keep the look & feel of an Apple IIe with the IIgs power inside.
Olivier
|
|
|
|
| Re: Do you feel IIgs has the same allure as the II? [message #368847 is a reply to message #368682] |
Fri, 08 June 2018 11:19 |
|
|
Originally posted by: dmrogers99
On Tuesday, June 5, 2018 at 10:41:34 PM UTC-4, Matthew Power wrote:
> I personally find that using my IIgs, while a beautiful machine, causes me to focus more on the mouse-driven gui and experimenting with adds to that whereas my IIe makes me think more about writing software (not very good, I admit) and getting closer to the machine.
>
> I'm curious to know if others bounce between the two machines.
I have a GS (ROM 3), //c, and two //e machines all set up next to me. I most frequently find myself working on one of the //es. Both of the //es are modified. One has a Transwarp with a 65816 installed, the other has Plamen's accelerator card. Both have expanded RAMWorks and RAMFactor (Slinky) memory.
For me, it's kind of a sentimental attachment, there's an emotional affect that makes the //e more "rewarding" to work on. (To say that I "work" on these machines is perhaps going to far. Mostly I "noodle.")
I was 24 when I got my first ][+ and bought a //e and had my first experience in what would eventually become a relentless, unstoppable and probably irrational progression in more capability for less cost; since repeated in almost every area touched by digital electronics. Most recently, in terms of my wallet, digital cameras, smart phones and tablets.
The //e had a couple of custom ICs that made it cheaper and more reliable, but didn't quite render it opaque to a semi-interested user.
The IIgs was much less accessible, that is to say, complicated, than the //e. It, and the follow on development of the Mac turned much of the physical aspects of the computer itself into a "black box." Software has done much the same.
I'm an old man now, and I suppose I identify with the men who were my age in my youth, decrying what they saw happening to automobile engines with electronic ignition, fuel injection and the like. All installed for commendable purposes, pollution control and gas mileage, but rendering the machine less accessible without greater effort at understanding fields seemingly unrelated to the "suck-squeeze-bang-blow" of four cycle internal combustion. "Mechanics" became "technicians." (Somewhat surprised they didn't demand to be called "engineers.") And there's much to be said about the good that has come from that, reliability not the least, apart from the two previously mentioned. But something was lost.
The GS isn't utterly opaque, but it's far more so than the ][+ or even the //e. As such, whenever I'm on it, there's a "distance" that I don't experience with the //e. Even a //e with a 16MHz 6502 running with on a card with, what I think is a CPLD (and I won't even pretend to understand what that is) emulating much of the memory management formerly handled by the MMU and the firmware on the RAMFactor. I can pretend that that doesn't really exist, more so than I can with the GS.
Anyway, much of my faith in technology is gone now, though I suppose the cause isn't so much technology as it is human nature. I'm reading a lot of the early history of computers these days, and the vision that many of the early pioneers had for what it might mean for humanity is lightyears (that's "distance" not "time") removed from how it has turned out.
We've taken Englebart's "augmentation" of the intellect, and Jobs' "bicycles for the mind" and turned them into a means for viewing cat pictures, and far worse. Complex thought is reduced to PowerPoint slides or 280 characters in a tweet - though "threading" seems to be more popular these days. Yes, the computer in "computer aided tomography" is a wonderful thing. I'm not a luddite, but the broader picture isn't inspiring.
I think Englebart understood before McLuhan that we make our tools, and in turn, our tools make us. If you've read Nick Carr's The Shallows, then you should go back and read Neil Postman's 1985 Amusing Ourselves to Death. Postman was there first. When Postman wrote, our president was a former actor, today he's a former game show host with a twitter following. It's hard to see how things are getting "better," Steven Pinker be damned.
Anyway, my $.02 in my incipient "grumpy old man" stage. I like all my Apple IIs, but the //es retain that early allure of something perhaps wonderful on the horizon. It all went wrong, but I can still recall the dream.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Do you feel IIgs has the same allure as the II? [message #368864 is a reply to message #368682] |
Fri, 08 June 2018 17:09 |
Egan Ford
Messages: 304
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On 6/5/18 8:41 PM, Matthew Power wrote:
> I personally find that using my IIgs, while a beautiful machine, causes me to focus more on the mouse-driven gui and experimenting with adds to that whereas my IIe makes me think more about writing software (not very good, I admit) and getting closer to the machine.
>
> I'm curious to know if others bounce between the two machines.
My first ][+ in high school. Some of my
friends had those sweet sweet //es with 80-column cards. Much better
for programming, IMHO.
I took AP Computer Science my jr. year using dumb TeleVideo 910/920
80-column terminals connected to an Alpha Micro mini (Pascal
programming). At that point I'd move past the Apple II line. My next
"PC" was a toaster Mac, and I never looked at the II again until the
last 10 years as nostalgia started to sink in--I finally got a //e with
80-columns and shortly thereafter picked up two very clean and nice IIgs
(still nice and clean since I never use them).
All I remember is the ][+ and //e and gravitate to them. And as some of
you know I have that cassette port fetish (the attribution of religious
or mystical qualities to inanimate objects), so little interest in the IIgs.
|
|
|
|
| Re: Do you feel IIgs has the same allure as the II? [message #368865 is a reply to message #368682] |
Fri, 08 June 2018 17:37 |
bpiltz
Messages: 78
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
|
Member |
|
|
On Tuesday, June 5, 2018 at 7:41:34 PM UTC-7, Matthew Power wrote:
> I personally find that using my IIgs, while a beautiful machine, causes me to focus more on the mouse-driven gui and experimenting with adds to that whereas my IIe makes me think more about writing software (not very good, I admit) and getting closer to the machine.
>
> I'm curious to know if others bounce between the two machines.
Must say that I prefer the classic ][ over the // GS. If I want a proto-Mac, the // GS is great, but for oldschool classic retro charm, my ][ and //e are so superior. The classic ][ is an old friend, the // GS is a "new" kid on the block.
|
|
|
|
| Do you feel IIgs has the same allure as the II? [message #370691 is a reply to message #368682] |
Fri, 13 July 2018 21:24 |
barana
Messages: 91
Registered: March 2013
Karma: 0
|
Member |
|
|
No no no no no.
Should read Do you feel II has the same allure as the IIGS?
Answer=no.
Long answer = The IIeuroplus was my first machine and has 'mystical' feelings attached of exploring my first computer...at school.
The IIgs was my first machine at home. A europlus is like a GS without arms or legs...or liver...or toes
.....or hair or fingernails.. Or left testicle.... Just enough parts missing to be a crippled machine. But cool colours and smell and voice....
|
|
|
|
| Re: Do you feel IIgs has the same allure as the II? [message #370720 is a reply to message #370691] |
Sat, 07 July 2018 08:18 |
Jeff Ramsey
Messages: 35
Registered: May 2018
Karma: 0
|
Member |
|
|
"barana" wrote:
> No no no no no.
> Should read Do you feel II has the same allure as the IIGS?
> Answer=no.
> Long answer = The IIeuroplus was my first machine and has 'mystical'
> feelings attached of exploring my first computer...at school.
> The IIgs was my first machine at home. A europlus is like a GS without
> arms or legs...or liver...or toes
> ....or hair or fingernails.. Or left testicle.... Just enough parts
> missing to be a crippled machine. But cool colours and smell and
> voice....
I think of them as two completely different machines. But I use my IIgs much more than my IIe. It's faster, has better "Graphics and Sound" and has better support for things that I use on a daily basis - Telnet & Usenet, for example. Of course, some things are much better on a II than a IIgs - 8-bit games like Oregon Trail, Choplifter, Burgertime, (insert favorite Atari 8-bit game here.)
Outside of those 8-bit games, what do you use your II for that you cannot do better or faster on a IIgs?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Do you feel IIgs has the same allure as the II? [message #370742 is a reply to message #370738] |
Sat, 14 July 2018 23:02 |
|
|
Originally posted by: Tom Porter
Antoine... if I was working on new double lores doubled buffered software, would everything come out alright, or would there be problems with pg2... I only have emulators to work with... IIE and IIC only physical hardware. I do know that the 1bit audio can be different on both the 8bit and gs machines... that took a while to figure out!
|
|
|
|
| Re: Do you feel IIgs has the same allure as the II? [message #370758 is a reply to message #370742] |
Sun, 15 July 2018 03:27 |
Antoine Vignau
Messages: 1860
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Text page 2 support was forgotten on the IIgs ROM 01, that's why there is a CDA called Alternate Display Mode to emulate it in software.
There's an entry point in the IIgs firmware to de/activate it. I gabe the address in another thread IIRC.
The idea is to call IDROUTINE with carry set, check the ROM version that is returned, and call the firmware entry point if you are running on a ROM 01.
Apart from that, no compatibilities issued are expected.
Antoine
|
|
|
|
| Re: Do you feel IIgs has the same allure as the II? [message #370780 is a reply to message #370758] |
Sun, 15 July 2018 10:44 |
David Schmenk
Messages: 374
Registered: December 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On Sunday, 15 July 2018 00:27:03 UTC-7, Antoine Vignau wrote:
> Text page 2 support was forgotten on the IIgs ROM 01, that's why there is a CDA called Alternate Display Mode to emulate it in software.
>
> There's an entry point in the IIgs firmware to de/activate it. I gabe the address in another thread IIRC.
>
> The idea is to call IDROUTINE with carry set, check the ROM version that is returned, and call the firmware entry point if you are running on a ROM 01.
>
> Apart from that, no compatibilities issued are expected.
> Antoine
Antoine-
Alternate Display Mode updates double buffers lores, but doesn't capture double buffered DOUBLE lores. At least not on my ROM 01.
Dave..
|
|
|
|
| Re: Do you feel IIgs has the same allure as the II? [message #370782 is a reply to message #370780] |
Sun, 15 July 2018 11:34 |
|
|
Originally posted by: John Brooks
On Sunday, July 15, 2018 at 7:44:17 AM UTC-7, David Schmenk wrote:
> On Sunday, 15 July 2018 00:27:03 UTC-7, Antoine Vignau wrote:
>> Text page 2 support was forgotten on the IIgs ROM 01, that's why there is a CDA called Alternate Display Mode to emulate it in software.
>>
>> There's an entry point in the IIgs firmware to de/activate it. I gabe the address in another thread IIRC.
>>
>> The idea is to call IDROUTINE with carry set, check the ROM version that is returned, and call the firmware entry point if you are running on a ROM 01.
>>
>> Apart from that, no compatibilities issued are expected.
>> Antoine
>
> Antoine-
>
> Alternate Display Mode updates double buffers lores, but doesn't capture double buffered DOUBLE lores. At least not on my ROM 01.
>
> Dave..
Correct. The "Alternate Display Mode" VBL interrupt handler only copies bank 0 $800-$7FF to bank $E0.
BTW: The new VidHD card being presented at KansasFest next week offers a potential solution to:
1) The problem of 8-bit games on the GS looking 'wrong' compared to the //e
2) The problem of the GS not displaying page 2 text/lores/dbl-lores like the //e
-JB
@JBrooksBSI
|
|
|
|
Members
Search
Help
Register
Login
Home
