|
|
| Re: tablets and desktops was Has Microsoft [message #369023 is a reply to message #369011] |
Fri, 15 June 2018 01:29   |
Alfred Falk
Messages: 195
Registered: June 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Michael Black <mblack@pubnix.net> wrote in
news:alpine.LNX.2.20.1806141838230.8770@thrush:
> On Thu, 14 Jun 2018, Charles Richmond wrote:
>
>> On 6/14/2018 11:44 AM, Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote:
>>>
>>> I had worked with Jim Gray on System/R (after I transferred to SJR
>>> from Cambridge). The official "new" corporate DBMS was EAGLE ... and
>>> while corporation was preoccupied with EAGLE ... we were able to do
>>> technical transfer to Endicott and get it out as SQL/DS. Then when
>>> EAGLE imploded, was asked how fast a port could be made to MVS ...
>>> which was eventually released as DB2.
>>>
>>
>
>
>> Isn't Jim Gray the guy who disappeared on a mountain in Alaska, or
>> sailed into the Pacific Ocean and was never seen again???
>>
> Yes, he was sailing and disappeared. There was a reasonably big search
> at the time. It was discussed here. A check of wikipedia says it was
> 2007, so I guess it's folklore now. Eugene Miya (did I get that right)
> seemed to keep track of the search, posting here, but he later
> disappeared himself at some later point though I think he just got
> tired of here, no death or spectacular reason for leaving.
>
> Michael
Eugene has a LinkedIn profile listing himself as "retired". We had a few
exchanges many years ago on rec.backcountry. (One thing we had in common
was that we started out aiming for a career in astronomy, but discovered
that there really aren't many jobs in that area.)
So where have you been, Michael?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Has Microsoft commited suicide ... [message #369155 is a reply to message #366545] |
Wed, 20 June 2018 01:30 |
Quadibloc
Messages: 4399
Registered: June 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On Saturday, April 21, 2018 at 8:35:51 AM UTC-6, Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote:
> ... by its monopolistic attitude towards the PC now
> that the World and its family are moving en masse to the
> ARM processors?
> Is the PC also dying in the light of the RPi3, a 64
> bit processor available for the price of a few bananas?
Although I thought Microsoft was doing just fine with its x86 orientation - it
has a foot in the ARM camp too, but there it doesn't offer the ability to run
all those old applications...
apparently they agree with you in part at Microsoft.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/06/18/microsoft_e2_edge_wi ndows_10/
John Savard
|
|
|
|
| Re: Has Microsoft commited suicide ... [message #369157 is a reply to message #369155] |
Wed, 20 June 2018 03:30 |
Charles Richmond
Messages: 2754
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On 6/20/2018 12:30 AM, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Saturday, April 21, 2018 at 8:35:51 AM UTC-6, Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote:
>> ... by its monopolistic attitude towards the PC now
>> that the World and its family are moving en masse to the
>> ARM processors?
>
>> Is the PC also dying in the light of the RPi3, a 64
>> bit processor available for the price of a few bananas?
>
> Although I thought Microsoft was doing just fine with its x86 orientation - it
> has a foot in the ARM camp too, but there it doesn't offer the ability to run
> all those old applications...
>
> apparently they agree with you in part at Microsoft.
>
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/06/18/microsoft_e2_edge_wi ndows_10/
>
So Microsoft *can* move to other processors! I'd like to see the DEC
Alpha chip updated to the current micron state of the technology...
IMHO we need realistic alternatives to the x86 architecture.
People can come up with all sorts of excuses why my opinion is wrong (in
their estimation), but I may still have my own opinion... I am allowed
my opinion. Thanks so much for that!
(People may believe whatever they want... that's the usual thing that
happens anyway, regardless of ant contradictory facts.)
--
numerist at aquaporin4 dot com
|
|
|
|
| Re: Has Microsoft commited suicide ... [message #369161 is a reply to message #369157] |
Wed, 20 June 2018 09:06 |
scott
Messages: 4237
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> writes:
> On 6/20/2018 12:30 AM, Quadibloc wrote:
>> On Saturday, April 21, 2018 at 8:35:51 AM UTC-6, Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote:
>>> ... by its monopolistic attitude towards the PC now
>>> that the World and its family are moving en masse to the
>>> ARM processors?
>>
>>> Is the PC also dying in the light of the RPi3, a 64
>>> bit processor available for the price of a few bananas?
>>
>> Although I thought Microsoft was doing just fine with its x86 orientation - it
>> has a foot in the ARM camp too, but there it doesn't offer the ability to run
>> all those old applications...
>>
>> apparently they agree with you in part at Microsoft.
>>
>> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/06/18/microsoft_e2_edge_wi ndows_10/
>>
>
> So Microsoft *can* move to other processors! I'd like to see the DEC
> Alpha chip updated to the current micron state of the technology...
> IMHO we need realistic alternatives to the x86 architecture.
Like ARM64?
Alpha may have been a 64-bit processor, but it was hardly
programmer-friendly.
|
|
|
|
| Re: tablets and desktops was Has Microsoft [message #369171 is a reply to message #369009] |
Wed, 20 June 2018 15:17 |
Anne & Lynn Wheel
Messages: 3156
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> writes:
> i had been blamed for online computer conferencing on the internal
> network in the late 70s and early 80s ... it really exploded after a
> "trip report" I distributed about visit to see Jim; from IBMJargon:
re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018d.html#70 tablets and desktops was Has Microsoft
From long ago and far away:
Date: 23 May 1983, 11:58:52 EST
From: <Sydney VM support>
To: wheeler
recall seeing something a while ago (about the time of the TANDEM saga)
about UNIX on IBM systems, and think the info came from you.
Was the reference only to the TSS RPQ or something else?
Have a situation here where university (currently DEC 10, PDP-11, and
VAX users) are out to tender. Interested in getting UNIX on whatever
system they buy. $2M. We will bid VM but will probably also need MUSIC
just to meet active terminal response time requirements. Have you had
any dealings with MUSIC? Any comparative studies vis-a-vis CMS?
Lots of student users to be supported.
As always, any comments most welcome .. Thanks.
.... snip ...
AT&T had contracted with IBM for stripped down TSS kernel (SSUP) that
they would layer UNIX on top (with SSUP managing resources, forking,
pipes, etc). Then AT&T got somewhat distracted by Amdahl UNIX (code name
"GOLD", i.e. for Au), unix port guest running VM370 virtual machine (one
of the issues was that adding EREP, error logging, error recover, etc,
was several times the effort of straight UNIX port, but running in VM370
virtual machine, sort of got all that for "free").
IBM Palo Alto also was doing a UC Berkeley BSD port with lots of
additions to VM/370 for something similar to the SSUP implementations
(IX/370, forking, pipes, etc, directly supported by VM370 kernel).
Before this ships, Palo Alto got redirected to do the BSD port to PC/RT
(801/risc ROMP) workstations as alternative to AIX. Palo Alto then also
does port of UCLA Locus (unix work alike) as guest operating system in
VM370 virtual machine (again mainframe EREP effort was major issue, as
opposed to merging a lot of UNIX function into the VM370 kernel) that
ships as AIX/370 along with Locus port to Intel as AIX/386.
spring 1982 I hold internal advanced technology conference with
presentations on some of this ... old post
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/96.html#4a John Hartmann's Birthday Party
old email with references to TSS SSUP, IX/370, &/or GOLD/AU
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006b.html#email800310
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006t.html#email800317
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006f.html#email800404
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007b.html#email800408
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006e.html#email840109
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007c.html#email861209
One of the people responsible for HASP was then running a project he
called RASP, virtual memory MFT (similar to VS1) but with native
paged-mapped filesystem. He then left IBM for Amdahl ... and continued
working on RASP-like operating system. I had suggested to the GOLD
people that they talk to their RASP people doing implementation. some
old email
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011e.html#email810408
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006w.html#email820907
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011e.html#email820907
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011e.html#email870302
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006w.html#email871111
other drift ... old post with list of corporate world-wide locations
that added one or more network nodes during 1983
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006k.html#8
past posts mentioning internal network
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#internalnet
other drift, recent posts in IBM Retiree group on subject
of EREP
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018d.html#18
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018d.html#86
--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970
|
|
|
|
| Re: Has Microsoft commited suicide ... [message #369181 is a reply to message #369157] |
Wed, 20 June 2018 19:07 |
|
|
Originally posted by: J. Clarke
On Wed, 20 Jun 2018 02:30:02 -0500, Charles Richmond
<numerist@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
> On 6/20/2018 12:30 AM, Quadibloc wrote:
>> On Saturday, April 21, 2018 at 8:35:51 AM UTC-6, Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote:
>>> ... by its monopolistic attitude towards the PC now
>>> that the World and its family are moving en masse to the
>>> ARM processors?
>>
>>> Is the PC also dying in the light of the RPi3, a 64
>>> bit processor available for the price of a few bananas?
>>
>> Although I thought Microsoft was doing just fine with its x86 orientation - it
>> has a foot in the ARM camp too, but there it doesn't offer the ability to run
>> all those old applications...
>>
>> apparently they agree with you in part at Microsoft.
>>
>> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/06/18/microsoft_e2_edge_wi ndows_10/
>>
>
> So Microsoft *can* move to other processors! I'd like to see the DEC
> Alpha chip updated to the current micron state of the technology...
> IMHO we need realistic alternatives to the x86 architecture.
>
> People can come up with all sorts of excuses why my opinion is wrong (in
> their estimation), but I may still have my own opinion... I am allowed
> my opinion. Thanks so much for that!
>
> (People may believe whatever they want... that's the usual thing that
> happens anyway, regardless of ant contradictory facts.)
No news about Windows being portable. NT started out as a portable
OS. It was ported to less and less as time went on, mostly due to
lack of interest. It ran on the Alpha at one time, but nobody much
cared.
In any case, you can get Windows from Microsoft for the Raspberry Pi,
for free.
|
|
|
|
| Re: Has Microsoft commited suicide ... [message #369189 is a reply to message #369181] |
Thu, 21 June 2018 02:01 |
|
|
Originally posted by: AndyW
On 21/06/2018 00:07, J. Clarke wrote:
> In any case, you can get Windows from Microsoft for the Raspberry Pi,
> for free.
But not a full OS version of windows like most of the other OSes
available on the pi.
PiWindows is a minimalist version to run embedded IoT-style software.
I'm still happy to stick to linux on the pi
Andy
|
|
|
|
| Re: Has Microsoft commited suicide ... [message #369193 is a reply to message #369181] |
Thu, 21 June 2018 03:06 |
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On Wed, 20 Jun 2018 19:07:15 -0400
J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> It ran on the Alpha at one time, but nobody much cared.
Motorola cared (at least one large bit of it) did and had even had a
division wide desktop standard based on NT on Alpha[1] (they didn't want to
buy processors when they were busy making them) all planned and just about
to roll out when Microsoft announced the end of the Alpha port.
[1] We tried really hard to make it Linux and StarOffice but Star Division
wouldn't say in writing that StarOffice would handle any MS document,
Microsoft would say that Office would. Testing that showed the opposite did
not trump words on a contract.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
|
|
|
|
| Re: Has Microsoft commited suicide ... [message #369199 is a reply to message #369181] |
Thu, 21 June 2018 07:04 |
|
|
Originally posted by: Gareth's Downstairs Computer
On 21/06/2018 00:07, J. Clarke wrote:
>
> No news about Windows being portable. NT started out as a portable
> OS. It was ported to less and less as time went on, mostly due to
> lack of interest. It ran on the Alpha at one time, but nobody much
> cared.
I did the systems programmer course for RSX11-M at the Butts Centre
in Reading in 1978 (Wowee!!!!! 40 years ago!!!!!) so could probably
remember enough to reproduce the essence of what went to make up NT.
The really clever bit, I thought at the time, was that critical
adjustments to shared memory were done with interrupts ENABLED
through the agency of $STKDPTH (sp?).
> In any case, you can get Windows from Microsoft for the Raspberry Pi,
> for free.
Really, Tell me more, especially if it offers a 64 bit version,
something that the RPI Foundation do not intend?
|
|
|
|
| Re: Has Microsoft commited suicide ... [message #369227 is a reply to message #369157] |
Thu, 21 June 2018 15:24 |
Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On 2018-06-20, Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
> On 6/20/2018 12:30 AM, Quadibloc wrote:
>
>> On Saturday, April 21, 2018 at 8:35:51 AM UTC-6,
>> Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote:
>>
>>> ... by its monopolistic attitude towards the PC now
>>> that the World and its family are moving en masse to the
>>> ARM processors?
>>
>>> Is the PC also dying in the light of the RPi3, a 64
>>> bit processor available for the price of a few bananas?
>>
>> Although I thought Microsoft was doing just fine with its x86
>> orientation - it has a foot in the ARM camp too, but there it
>> doesn't offer the ability to run all those old applications...
>>
>> apparently they agree with you in part at Microsoft.
>>
>> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/06/18/microsoft_e2_edge_wi ndows_10/
>
> So Microsoft *can* move to other processors! I'd like to see the DEC
> Alpha chip updated to the current micron state of the technology...
> IMHO we need realistic alternatives to the x86 architecture.
Once we have a realistic alternative to Microsoft, the problem
solves itself.
--
/~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ Fight low-contrast text in web pages! http://contrastrebellion.com
|
|
|
|
| Re: Has Microsoft commited suicide ... [message #369242 is a reply to message #369227] |
Thu, 21 June 2018 17:47 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> On 2018-06-20, Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
>
>> On 6/20/2018 12:30 AM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>
>>> On Saturday, April 21, 2018 at 8:35:51 AM UTC-6,
>>> Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote:
>>>
>>>> ... by its monopolistic attitude towards the PC now
>>>> that the World and its family are moving en masse to the
>>>> ARM processors?
>>>
>>>> Is the PC also dying in the light of the RPi3, a 64
>>>> bit processor available for the price of a few bananas?
>>>
>>> Although I thought Microsoft was doing just fine with its x86
>>> orientation - it has a foot in the ARM camp too, but there it
>>> doesn't offer the ability to run all those old applications...
>>>
>>> apparently they agree with you in part at Microsoft.
>>>
>>> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/06/18/microsoft_e2_edge_wi ndows_10/
>>
>> So Microsoft *can* move to other processors! I'd like to see the DEC
>> Alpha chip updated to the current micron state of the technology...
>> IMHO we need realistic alternatives to the x86 architecture.
>
> Once we have a realistic alternative to Microsoft, the problem
> solves itself.
>
We have had realistic alternatives since the 80's. What re need is a
realistic alternative to the sheeple who won't see it.
--
Pete
|
|
|
|
| Re: Has Microsoft commited suicide ... [message #369255 is a reply to message #369189] |
Thu, 21 June 2018 22:47 |
|
|
Originally posted by: J. Clarke
On Thu, 21 Jun 2018 07:01:05 +0100, AndyW <Andy@nojunqmail.com> wrote:
> On 21/06/2018 00:07, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>
>> In any case, you can get Windows from Microsoft for the Raspberry Pi,
>> for free.
>
> But not a full OS version of windows like most of the other OSes
> available on the pi.
There isn't a full OS version for that processor. Hardware that
Microsoft sold also had a limited-functionality version of Windows.
> PiWindows is a minimalist version to run embedded IoT-style software.
>
> I'm still happy to stick to linux on the pi
>
> Andy
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: Has Microsoft commited suicide ... [message #369256 is a reply to message #369242] |
Thu, 21 June 2018 22:48 |
|
|
Originally posted by: J. Clarke
On Thu, 21 Jun 2018 17:47:13 -0400, Peter Flass
<peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2018-06-20, Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 6/20/2018 12:30 AM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Saturday, April 21, 2018 at 8:35:51 AM UTC-6,
>>>> Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > ... by its monopolistic attitude towards the PC now
>>>> > that the World and its family are moving en masse to the
>>>> > ARM processors?
>>>>
>>>> > Is the PC also dying in the light of the RPi3, a 64
>>>> > bit processor available for the price of a few bananas?
>>>>
>>>> Although I thought Microsoft was doing just fine with its x86
>>>> orientation - it has a foot in the ARM camp too, but there it
>>>> doesn't offer the ability to run all those old applications...
>>>>
>>>> apparently they agree with you in part at Microsoft.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/06/18/microsoft_e2_edge_wi ndows_10/
>>>
>>> So Microsoft *can* move to other processors! I'd like to see the DEC
>>> Alpha chip updated to the current micron state of the technology...
>>> IMHO we need realistic alternatives to the x86 architecture.
>>
>> Once we have a realistic alternative to Microsoft, the problem
>> solves itself.
>>
>
> We have had realistic alternatives since the 80's. What re need is a
> realistic alternative to the sheeple who won't see it.
First you need to make a case that it's actually a realistic
alternative. If it makes us replace our current staff with one ten
times the size in order to do manually all the stuff that we now do
using features unique to Windows that are not replicated on other
platforms, then it is not a win.
|
|
|
|
| Re: Has Microsoft commited suicide ... [message #369259 is a reply to message #369256] |
Thu, 21 June 2018 23:39 |
Richard Thiebaud
Messages: 222
Registered: May 2013
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On 06/21/2018 10:48 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Jun 2018 17:47:13 -0400, Peter Flass
> <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 2018-06-20, Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 6/20/2018 12:30 AM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > On Saturday, April 21, 2018 at 8:35:51 AM UTC-6,
>>>> > Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> ... by its monopolistic attitude towards the PC now
>>>> >> that the World and its family are moving en masse to the
>>>> >> ARM processors?
>>>> >
>>>> >> Is the PC also dying in the light of the RPi3, a 64
>>>> >> bit processor available for the price of a few bananas?
>>>> >
>>>> > Although I thought Microsoft was doing just fine with its x86
>>>> > orientation - it has a foot in the ARM camp too, but there it
>>>> > doesn't offer the ability to run all those old applications...
>>>> >
>>>> > apparently they agree with you in part at Microsoft.
>>>> >
>>>> > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/06/18/microsoft_e2_edge_wi ndows_10/
>>>>
>>>> So Microsoft *can* move to other processors! I'd like to see the DEC
>>>> Alpha chip updated to the current micron state of the technology...
>>>> IMHO we need realistic alternatives to the x86 architecture.
>>>
>>> Once we have a realistic alternative to Microsoft, the problem
>>> solves itself.
>>>
>>
>> We have had realistic alternatives since the 80's. What re need is a
>> realistic alternative to the sheeple who won't see it.
>
> First you need to make a case that it's actually a realistic
> alternative. If it makes us replace our current staff with one ten
> times the size in order to do manually all the stuff that we now do
> using features unique to Windows that are not replicated on other
> platforms, then it is not a win.
>
What features are unique to Windows?
|
|
|
|
| Re: Has Microsoft commited suicide ... [message #369275 is a reply to message #369227] |
Fri, 22 June 2018 02:58 |
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On 21 Jun 2018 19:24:55 GMT
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> Once we have a realistic alternative to Microsoft, the problem
> solves itself.
To date Microsoft has only produced one realistic alternative to
the software I use, and they dropped XENIX decades ago.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
|
|
|
|
| Re: Has Microsoft commited suicide ... [message #369278 is a reply to message #369259] |
Fri, 22 June 2018 03:04 |
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On Thu, 21 Jun 2018 23:39:17 -0400
Richard Thiebaud <thiebauddick2@aol.com> wrote:
> What features are unique to Windows?
Don't go there! J Clarke's place of work has been backing themselves
into a selection of lock-in traps for decades AFAICT. Many of them involving
tight dependencies on Microsoft products. They *need* Windows and I doubt
they could get out from under (even if there was a desire) without breaking
the whole thing in the process. Mr. Clarke seems to think this is a good
thing, several of us disagree but it's not our problem and they seem happy.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
|
|
|
|
| Re: Has Microsoft commited suicide ... [message #369284 is a reply to message #369278] |
Fri, 22 June 2018 04:06 |
Charles Richmond
Messages: 2754
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On 6/22/2018 2:04 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Jun 2018 23:39:17 -0400
> Richard Thiebaud <thiebauddick2@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> What features are unique to Windows?
>
> Don't go there! J Clarke's place of work has been backing themselves
> into a selection of lock-in traps for decades AFAICT. Many of them involving
> tight dependencies on Microsoft products. They *need* Windows and I doubt
> they could get out from under (even if there was a desire) without breaking
> the whole thing in the process. Mr. Clarke seems to think this is a good
> thing, several of us disagree but it's not our problem and they seem happy.
>
Rather than say "get out from under Windows", I'd put it as "extricate
themselves from Windows"... because here Windows *is* a trap!!! for
this they would need Harry Houdini instead of J. Clarke!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Houdini
--
numerist at aquaporin4 dot com
|
|
|
|
| Re: Has Microsoft commited suicide ... [message #369286 is a reply to message #369242] |
Fri, 22 June 2018 05:39 |
|
|
Originally posted by: Gareth's Downstairs Computer
On 21/06/2018 22:47, Peter Flass wrote:
>
> We have had realistic alternatives since the 80's. What re need is a
> realistic alternative to the sheeple who won't see it.
>
That realistic alternative has always been there, for were you to
reject the system software on offer, then you could produce your own.
Neither Windows nor Linux are respectable offerings for real
computerists (as opposed to consumerist computerists) for
both are excessively bloated.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Has Microsoft commited suicide ... [message #369294 is a reply to message #369256] |
Fri, 22 June 2018 06:36 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Jun 2018 17:47:13 -0400, Peter Flass
> <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 2018-06-20, Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 6/20/2018 12:30 AM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > On Saturday, April 21, 2018 at 8:35:51 AM UTC-6,
>>>> > Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> ... by its monopolistic attitude towards the PC now
>>>> >> that the World and its family are moving en masse to the
>>>> >> ARM processors?
>>>> >
>>>> >> Is the PC also dying in the light of the RPi3, a 64
>>>> >> bit processor available for the price of a few bananas?
>>>> >
>>>> > Although I thought Microsoft was doing just fine with its x86
>>>> > orientation - it has a foot in the ARM camp too, but there it
>>>> > doesn't offer the ability to run all those old applications...
>>>> >
>>>> > apparently they agree with you in part at Microsoft.
>>>> >
>>>> > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/06/18/microsoft_e2_edge_wi ndows_10/
>>>>
>>>> So Microsoft *can* move to other processors! I'd like to see the DEC
>>>> Alpha chip updated to the current micron state of the technology...
>>>> IMHO we need realistic alternatives to the x86 architecture.
>>>
>>> Once we have a realistic alternative to Microsoft, the problem
>>> solves itself.
>>>
>>
>> We have had realistic alternatives since the 80's. What re need is a
>> realistic alternative to the sheeple who won't see it.
>
> First you need to make a case that it's actually a realistic
> alternative. If it makes us replace our current staff with one ten
> times the size in order to do manually all the stuff that we now do
> using features unique to Windows that are not replicated on other
> platforms, then it is not a win.
>
You may be one of the unfortunates who are locked in, but probably 80% or
so do plain vanilla stuff that's easily ported.
Of course as a mainframe guy, I never could see why companies would want to
run mission-critical stuff on glorified video game consoles anyhow.
--
Pete
|
|
|
|
| Re: Has Microsoft commited suicide ... [message #369295 is a reply to message #369259] |
Fri, 22 June 2018 06:37 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Richard Thiebaud <thiebauddick2@aol.com> wrote:
> On 06/21/2018 10:48 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Thu, 21 Jun 2018 17:47:13 -0400, Peter Flass
>> <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On 2018-06-20, Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > On 6/20/2018 12:30 AM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> On Saturday, April 21, 2018 at 8:35:51 AM UTC-6,
>>>> >> Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> ... by its monopolistic attitude towards the PC now
>>>> >>> that the World and its family are moving en masse to the
>>>> >>> ARM processors?
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> Is the PC also dying in the light of the RPi3, a 64
>>>> >>> bit processor available for the price of a few bananas?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Although I thought Microsoft was doing just fine with its x86
>>>> >> orientation - it has a foot in the ARM camp too, but there it
>>>> >> doesn't offer the ability to run all those old applications...
>>>> >>
>>>> >> apparently they agree with you in part at Microsoft.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/06/18/microsoft_e2_edge_wi ndows_10/
>>>> >
>>>> > So Microsoft *can* move to other processors! I'd like to see the DEC
>>>> > Alpha chip updated to the current micron state of the technology...
>>>> > IMHO we need realistic alternatives to the x86 architecture.
>>>>
>>>> Once we have a realistic alternative to Microsoft, the problem
>>>> solves itself.
>>>>
>>>
>>> We have had realistic alternatives since the 80's. What re need is a
>>> realistic alternative to the sheeple who won't see it.
>>
>> First you need to make a case that it's actually a realistic
>> alternative. If it makes us replace our current staff with one ten
>> times the size in order to do manually all the stuff that we now do
>> using features unique to Windows that are not replicated on other
>> platforms, then it is not a win.
>>
> What features are unique to Windows?
>
He's written upstream in some detail about his applications. I can only say
"you have my sympathy."
--
Pete
|
|
|
|
| Re: Has Microsoft commited suicide ... [message #369296 is a reply to message #369286] |
Fri, 22 June 2018 06:37 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Gareth's Downstairs Computer
<headstone255.but.not.these.five.words@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 21/06/2018 22:47, Peter Flass wrote:
>>
>> We have had realistic alternatives since the 80's. What re need is a
>> realistic alternative to the sheeple who won't see it.
>>
>
> That realistic alternative has always been there, for were you to
> reject the system software on offer, then you could produce your own.
In theory that's true, but in practice for companies have the resources
these days to develop the software they need. Most of the significant open
source stuff these days seems to be developed by consortia funded by the
major interested users: Linux, Apache, Mozilla, etc.
>
> Neither Windows nor Linux are respectable offerings for real
> computerists (as opposed to consumerist computerists) for
> both are excessively bloated.
>
Hey! We agree, though for different reasons (see my note above)
--
Pete
|
|
|
|
| Re: Has Microsoft commited suicide ... [message #369297 is a reply to message #369288] |
Fri, 22 June 2018 06:37 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Gareth's Downstairs Computer
<headstone255.but.not.these.five.words@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 22/06/2018 04:39, Richard Thiebaud wrote:
>>>
>> What features are unique to Windows?
>
> The Logo
>
> .NET
>
> Common Runtime
>
> An inability to sort out the bugs after
> nearly 25 years of the product's lifetime.
>
> Creating a monopolistic gannet to the detriment
> of computing.
>
Isn't Mono a clone of .net? What does the common runtime do especially that
other libraries don't? (actual question, not rhetorical) As for sorting out
the bugs, name one system that's been running for a number of years that
doesn't have any number of deeply imbedded bugs.
The logo is copyrighted.
--
Pete
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Has Microsoft commited suicide ... [message #369308 is a reply to message #369259] |
Fri, 22 June 2018 09:11 |
|
|
Originally posted by: JimP
On Thu, 21 Jun 2018 23:39:17 -0400, Richard Thiebaud
<thiebauddick2@aol.com> wrote:
> On 06/21/2018 10:48 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Thu, 21 Jun 2018 17:47:13 -0400, Peter Flass
>> <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On 2018-06-20, Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > On 6/20/2018 12:30 AM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> On Saturday, April 21, 2018 at 8:35:51 AM UTC-6,
>>>> >> Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> ... by its monopolistic attitude towards the PC now
>>>> >>> that the World and its family are moving en masse to the
>>>> >>> ARM processors?
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> Is the PC also dying in the light of the RPi3, a 64
>>>> >>> bit processor available for the price of a few bananas?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Although I thought Microsoft was doing just fine with its x86
>>>> >> orientation - it has a foot in the ARM camp too, but there it
>>>> >> doesn't offer the ability to run all those old applications...
>>>> >>
>>>> >> apparently they agree with you in part at Microsoft.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/06/18/microsoft_e2_edge_wi ndows_10/
>>>> >
>>>> > So Microsoft *can* move to other processors! I'd like to see the DEC
>>>> > Alpha chip updated to the current micron state of the technology...
>>>> > IMHO we need realistic alternatives to the x86 architecture.
>>>>
>>>> Once we have a realistic alternative to Microsoft, the problem
>>>> solves itself.
>>>>
>>>
>>> We have had realistic alternatives since the 80's. What re need is a
>>> realistic alternative to the sheeple who won't see it.
>>
>> First you need to make a case that it's actually a realistic
>> alternative. If it makes us replace our current staff with one ten
>> times the size in order to do manually all the stuff that we now do
>> using features unique to Windows that are not replicated on other
>> platforms, then it is not a win.
>>
> What features are unique to Windows?
BSOD.
|
|
|
|
| Re: Has Microsoft commited suicide ... [message #369328 is a reply to message #369299] |
Fri, 22 June 2018 12:20 |
Andrew Swallow
Messages: 1705
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On 22/06/2018 11:53, Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote:
> On 22/06/2018 11:36, Peter Flass wrote:
>>
>> Of course as a mainframe guy, I never could see why companies would
>> want to
>> run mission-critical stuff on glorified video game consoles anyhow.
>
> An interesting viewpoint of the world of the PC!
>
>
That is what most people in IBM thought until sales of PCs exceeded
sales of mainframes.
|
|
|
|
| Re: Has Microsoft commited suicide ... [message #369344 is a reply to message #369301] |
Fri, 22 June 2018 13:56 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Gareth's Downstairs Computer
<headstone255.but.not.these.five.words@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 22/06/2018 11:37, Peter Flass wrote:
>>
>> Isn't Mono a clone of .net? What does the common runtime do especially that
>> other libraries don't? (actual question, not rhetorical)
> All the source languages link together.
>
Sort of like all the gnu languages, the IBM mainframe languages with LE, or
all the DEC languages with the common runtime? Leave it to microsoft to
claim they invented sunshine.
--
Pete
|
|
|
|
| Re: Has Microsoft commited suicide ... [message #369350 is a reply to message #369328] |
Fri, 22 June 2018 14:38 |
|
|
Originally posted by: David Wade
On 22/06/2018 17:20, Andrew Swallow wrote:
> On 22/06/2018 11:53, Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote:
>> On 22/06/2018 11:36, Peter Flass wrote:
>>>
>>> Of course as a mainframe guy, I never could see why companies would
>>> want to
>>> run mission-critical stuff on glorified video game consoles anyhow.
>
Its also interesting that the CELL CPU which was first used in the Sony
PlayStation is also the basis of the chips used in IBM mainframes.
In order to provide fast graphics modern Games Consoles need fast CPUs.
Much more so than a typical PC...
>> An interesting viewpoint of the world of the PC!
>>
>>
> That is what most people in IBM thought until sales of PCs exceeded
> sales of mainframes.
|
|
|
|
| Re: Has Microsoft commited suicide ... [message #369380 is a reply to message #369259] |
Fri, 22 June 2018 20:22 |
|
|
Originally posted by: J. Clarke
On Thu, 21 Jun 2018 23:39:17 -0400, Richard Thiebaud
<thiebauddick2@aol.com> wrote:
> On 06/21/2018 10:48 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Thu, 21 Jun 2018 17:47:13 -0400, Peter Flass
>> <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On 2018-06-20, Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > On 6/20/2018 12:30 AM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> On Saturday, April 21, 2018 at 8:35:51 AM UTC-6,
>>>> >> Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> ... by its monopolistic attitude towards the PC now
>>>> >>> that the World and its family are moving en masse to the
>>>> >>> ARM processors?
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> Is the PC also dying in the light of the RPi3, a 64
>>>> >>> bit processor available for the price of a few bananas?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Although I thought Microsoft was doing just fine with its x86
>>>> >> orientation - it has a foot in the ARM camp too, but there it
>>>> >> doesn't offer the ability to run all those old applications...
>>>> >>
>>>> >> apparently they agree with you in part at Microsoft.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/06/18/microsoft_e2_edge_wi ndows_10/
>>>> >
>>>> > So Microsoft *can* move to other processors! I'd like to see the DEC
>>>> > Alpha chip updated to the current micron state of the technology...
>>>> > IMHO we need realistic alternatives to the x86 architecture.
>>>>
>>>> Once we have a realistic alternative to Microsoft, the problem
>>>> solves itself.
>>>>
>>>
>>> We have had realistic alternatives since the 80's. What re need is a
>>> realistic alternative to the sheeple who won't see it.
>>
>> First you need to make a case that it's actually a realistic
>> alternative. If it makes us replace our current staff with one ten
>> times the size in order to do manually all the stuff that we now do
>> using features unique to Windows that are not replicated on other
>> platforms, then it is not a win.
>>
> What features are unique to Windows?
The whole Component Object Model for one thing. There may be
equivalents on other platforms but if we can't take our existing code
and plunk it onto the new system and have it work the same way then
it's a net cost for us.
|
|
|
|
| Re: Has Microsoft commited suicide ... [message #369381 is a reply to message #369297] |
Fri, 22 June 2018 20:32 |
|
|
Originally posted by: J. Clarke
On Fri, 22 Jun 2018 06:37:02 -0400, Peter Flass
<peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Gareth's Downstairs Computer
> <headstone255.but.not.these.five.words@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On 22/06/2018 04:39, Richard Thiebaud wrote:
>>>>
>>> What features are unique to Windows?
>>
>> The Logo
>>
>> .NET
>>
>> Common Runtime
>>
>> An inability to sort out the bugs after
>> nearly 25 years of the product's lifetime.
>>
>> Creating a monopolistic gannet to the detriment
>> of computing.
>>
>
> Isn't Mono a clone of .net?
It's an attempt at a clone. It is still well behind the curve.
> What does the common runtime do especially that
> other libraries don't? (actual question, not rhetorical) As for sorting out
> the bugs, name one system that's been running for a number of years that
> doesn't have any number of deeply imbedded bugs.
The CLR is similar to the JVM but it supports a wide range of
languages. "Managed code" running on windows runs on the CLR, not
directly on the hardware. I don't know how many Microsoft products
are written to run on the CLR--the ones written in C# and Visual Basic
will but C++ crosses boundaries.
> The logo is copyrighted.
|
|
|
|
| Re: Has Microsoft commited suicide ... [message #369382 is a reply to message #369344] |
Fri, 22 June 2018 20:36 |
|
|
Originally posted by: J. Clarke
On Fri, 22 Jun 2018 13:56:09 -0400, Peter Flass
<peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Gareth's Downstairs Computer
> <headstone255.but.not.these.five.words@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On 22/06/2018 11:37, Peter Flass wrote:
>>>
>>> Isn't Mono a clone of .net? What does the common runtime do especially that
>>> other libraries don't? (actual question, not rhetorical)
>> All the source languages link together.
>>
>
> Sort of like all the gnu languages, the IBM mainframe languages with LE, or
> all the DEC languages with the common runtime? Leave it to microsoft to
> claim they invented sunshine.
Except that the gnu languages and LE don't produce binaries that will
run without further adjustment on an Alpha, an Itanium, a Sparc, and a
PC, which, in principle, is true of CLR (I say "in principle" because
I don't know if the versions of Windows that made it to the Alpha and
Sparc are recent enough to support CLR).
|
|
|
|
| Re: Has Microsoft commited suicide ... [message #369383 is a reply to message #369295] |
Fri, 22 June 2018 20:44 |
|
|
Originally posted by: J. Clarke
On Fri, 22 Jun 2018 06:37:00 -0400, Peter Flass
<peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Richard Thiebaud <thiebauddick2@aol.com> wrote:
>> On 06/21/2018 10:48 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> On Thu, 21 Jun 2018 17:47:13 -0400, Peter Flass
>>> <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>>> > On 2018-06-20, Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> On 6/20/2018 12:30 AM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> On Saturday, April 21, 2018 at 8:35:51 AM UTC-6,
>>>> >>> Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> ... by its monopolistic attitude towards the PC now
>>>> >>>> that the World and its family are moving en masse to the
>>>> >>>> ARM processors?
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> Is the PC also dying in the light of the RPi3, a 64
>>>> >>>> bit processor available for the price of a few bananas?
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Although I thought Microsoft was doing just fine with its x86
>>>> >>> orientation - it has a foot in the ARM camp too, but there it
>>>> >>> doesn't offer the ability to run all those old applications...
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> apparently they agree with you in part at Microsoft.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/06/18/microsoft_e2_edge_wi ndows_10/
>>>> >>
>>>> >> So Microsoft *can* move to other processors! I'd like to see the DEC
>>>> >> Alpha chip updated to the current micron state of the technology...
>>>> >> IMHO we need realistic alternatives to the x86 architecture.
>>>> >
>>>> > Once we have a realistic alternative to Microsoft, the problem
>>>> > solves itself.
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> We have had realistic alternatives since the 80's. What re need is a
>>>> realistic alternative to the sheeple who won't see it.
>>>
>>> First you need to make a case that it's actually a realistic
>>> alternative. If it makes us replace our current staff with one ten
>>> times the size in order to do manually all the stuff that we now do
>>> using features unique to Windows that are not replicated on other
>>> platforms, then it is not a win.
>>>
>> What features are unique to Windows?
>>
>
> He's written upstream in some detail about his applications. I can only say
> "you have my sympathy."
Don't feel too bad for me. I'm well paid and enjoy my work. And I
get to write lots of APL.
|
|
|
|
| Re: Has Microsoft commited suicide ... [message #369384 is a reply to message #369350] |
Fri, 22 June 2018 20:45 |
|
|
Originally posted by: J. Clarke
On Fri, 22 Jun 2018 19:38:31 +0100, David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid>
wrote:
> On 22/06/2018 17:20, Andrew Swallow wrote:
>> On 22/06/2018 11:53, Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote:
>>> On 22/06/2018 11:36, Peter Flass wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Of course as a mainframe guy, I never could see why companies would
>>>> want to
>>>> run mission-critical stuff on glorified video game consoles anyhow.
>>
>
> Its also interesting that the CELL CPU which was first used in the Sony
> PlayStation is also the basis of the chips used in IBM mainframes.
>
> In order to provide fast graphics modern Games Consoles need fast CPUs.
> Much more so than a typical PC...
This is true--a hardcore PC gamer will spend more than the price of a
game console on his video hardware alone.
>
>
>>> An interesting viewpoint of the world of the PC!
>>>
>>>
>> That is what most people in IBM thought until sales of PCs exceeded
>> sales of mainframes.
>
>
>
|
|
|
|
| Re: Has Microsoft commited suicide ... [message #369398 is a reply to message #369350] |
Sat, 23 June 2018 02:07 |
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On Fri, 22 Jun 2018 19:38:31 +0100
David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> wrote:
> Its also interesting that the CELL CPU which was first used in the Sony
> PlayStation is also the basis of the chips used in IBM mainframes.
That was the PlayStation 3.
> In order to provide fast graphics modern Games Consoles need fast CPUs.
> Much more so than a typical PC...
The Playstation 4 OTOH is basically a PC with an 8 core x86-64 CPU
and an AMD GPU, it even runs an OS derived from FreeBSD.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
|
|
|
|
| Re: Has Microsoft commited suicide ... [message #369411 is a reply to message #369381] |
Sat, 23 June 2018 05:59 |
Andy Leighton
Messages: 203
Registered: July 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On Fri, 22 Jun 2018 20:32:48 -0400, J Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Jun 2018 06:37:02 -0400, Peter Flass
> <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> Isn't Mono a clone of .net?
>
> It's an attempt at a clone. It is still well behind the curve.
I am not sure about well behind. There are parts of .NET which
MS has patents on.
I think Mono does a pretty good job with those parts which are
documented and standardised. Also technically Mono is now
owned by Microsoft.
> The CLR is similar to the JVM but it supports a wide range of
> languages.
Well so does the JVM. Off the top of my head I can think of
Clojure, Scala, Groovy, Kotlin, Ruby, Javascript, Python, and there
are many more. Some of which appeared well before .NET/CLR 1.0.
--
Andy Leighton => andyl@azaal.plus.com
"We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
- Douglas Adams
|
|
|
|
Members
Search
Help
Register
Login
Home
