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| Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #363984 is a reply to message #363981] |
Wed, 21 February 2018 16:17   |
Charles Richmond
Messages: 2754
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2/21/2018 3:08 PM, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> The Phila Inqr reported that compsci is a hot major.
>
> Across the country, the number of computer science majors
> at doctoral institutions has more than tripled in the last
> decade. It’s much hotter than it was during the dot-com
> blitz in the late 1990s, according to the national Computing
> Research Association. The group refers to the current surge
> as “Generation CS,” fueled by the pervasiveness of computing
> across society and the plethora of jobs, some with six-figure
> salaries and eye-popping signing bonuses.
>
> for full article please see:
> http://www.philly.com/philly/education/hot-major-on-campus-c omputer-science-20180218.html
>
I hope this reflects a true interest in computers and programming... but
I fear a generation of half-baked programmers who are *only* in this for
the money.
--
numerist at aquaporin4 dot com
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| Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #363990 is a reply to message #363984] |
Wed, 21 February 2018 17:10 |
hancock4
Messages: 6746
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Wednesday, February 21, 2018 at 4:17:28 PM UTC-5, Charles Richmond wrote:
>> The Phila Inqr reported that compsci is a hot major.
>>
>> Across the country, the number of computer science majors
>> at doctoral institutions has more than tripled in the last
>> decade. It’s much hotter than it was during the dot-com
>> blitz in the late 1990s, according to the national Computing
>> Research Association. The group refers to the current surge
>> as “Generation CS,” fueled by the pervasiveness of computing
>> across society and the plethora of jobs, some with six-figure
>> salaries and eye-popping signing bonuses.
>>
>> for full article please see:
>> http://www.philly.com/philly/education/hot-major-on-campus-c omputer-science-20180218.html
>>
>
> I hope this reflects a true interest in computers and programming... but
> I fear a generation of half-baked programmers who are *only* in this for
> the money.
Well...when I started years ago, a lot of computer personnel were
people who were in another field* and for various reasons, found
themselves working as a programmer**. It wasn't that they were
interested specifically in computers but rather circumstances of
life put them there.
* Literally A to Z--airline pilot to zoologist, bartender, welder,
pretty much every field. (Never saw a former professional athlete
or actor, though, but there certainly could've been.)
** Many people were working in some paperwork job at a large
corporation and were selected to be trained as a programmer for
the company's new or expanding computer.
Others found themselves laid off or otherwise out of a job,
so they went to community college and got an associate degree
in programming since it looked like the best career option.
When I read the article, I wonder if any of them in their
"algorithm training" will also learn mundane tasks like getting
out the payroll or profit & loss statement.
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| Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #363994 is a reply to message #363984] |
Wed, 21 February 2018 17:58 |
mausg
Messages: 2483
Registered: May 2013
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2018-02-21, Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
> On 2/21/2018 3:08 PM, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>> The Phila Inqr reported that compsci is a hot major.
>>
>> Across the country, the number of computer science majors
>> at doctoral institutions has more than tripled in the last
>> decade. It’s much hotter than it was during the dot-com
>> blitz in the late 1990s, according to the national Computing
>> Research Association. The group refers to the current surge
>> as “Generation CS,” fueled by the pervasiveness of computing
>> across society and the plethora of jobs, some with six-figure
>> salaries and eye-popping signing bonuses.
>>
>> for full article please see:
>> http://www.philly.com/philly/education/hot-major-on-campus-c omputer-science-20180218.html
>>
>
> I hope this reflects a true interest in computers and programming... but
> I fear a generation of half-baked programmers who are *only* in this for
> the money.
>
I rememebr it being said that medicine is very popular (in schools)
until the first corpse has to be dissected, and it may be the same
for computers, when the first debugging has to be done.
--
greymaus.ireland.ie
Just_Another_Grumpy_Old_Man
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| Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #363997 is a reply to message #363984] |
Wed, 21 February 2018 19:10 |
Mike Spencer
Messages: 997
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> writes:
> On 2/21/2018 3:08 PM, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>
>> The Phila Inqr reported that compsci is a hot major.
>> [snip]
>
> I hope this reflects a true interest in computers and programming... but
> I fear a generation of half-baked programmers who are *only* in this for
> the money.
I professor at MIT I knew from the early 80s to the mid-90s told me
that he found "these kids smart, scary-smart" but that many of them
had told him that they were going the tech route only because they'd
found they were good at it. Expected to put in some entry time in
STEM jobs but that they were aiming for management where the real
money lay.
Oh, well. Newton ended up at the Mint but at least he did a little
serious work first. :-)
--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
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| Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #363998 is a reply to message #363981] |
Wed, 21 February 2018 19:49 |
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Originally posted by: Bob Eager
On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 22:53:01 +0000, Huge wrote:
> On 2018-02-21, Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
>> On 2/21/2018 3:08 PM, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>> The Phila Inqr reported that compsci is a hot major.
>>>
>>> Across the country, the number of computer science majors at doctoral
>>> institutions has more than tripled in the last decade. It’s much
>>> hotter than it was during the dot-com blitz in the late 1990s,
>>> according to the national Computing Research Association. The group
>>> refers to the current surge as “Generation CS,” fueled by the
>>> pervasiveness of computing across society and the plethora of jobs,
>>> some with six-figure salaries and eye-popping signing bonuses.
>>>
>>> for full article please see:
>>> http://www.philly.com/philly/education/hot-major-on-campus-c omputer-
science-20180218.html
>>>
>>>
>> I hope this reflects a true interest in computers and programming...
>> but I fear a generation of half-baked programmers who are *only* in
>> this for the money.
>
> That's what happened last time.
We used to offer an 'escape route' at the end of the first year. A joint
Honours degree in computing (not CS) and business. Qite a good take-up,
and it filtered out most of those who weren't really interested.
--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
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| Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364000 is a reply to message #363994] |
Wed, 21 February 2018 21:01 |
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Originally posted by: J. Clarke
On 21 Feb 2018 22:58:49 GMT, mausg@mail.com wrote:
> On 2018-02-21, Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
>> On 2/21/2018 3:08 PM, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>> The Phila Inqr reported that compsci is a hot major.
>>>
>>> Across the country, the number of computer science majors
>>> at doctoral institutions has more than tripled in the last
>>> decade. Its much hotter than it was during the dot-com
>>> blitz in the late 1990s, according to the national Computing
>>> Research Association. The group refers to the current surge
>>> as Generation CS, fueled by the pervasiveness of computing
>>> across society and the plethora of jobs, some with six-figure
>>> salaries and eye-popping signing bonuses.
>>>
>>> for full article please see:
>>> http://www.philly.com/philly/education/hot-major-on-campus-c omputer-science-20180218.html
>>>
>>
>> I hope this reflects a true interest in computers and programming... but
>> I fear a generation of half-baked programmers who are *only* in this for
>> the money.
>>
>
> I rememebr it being said that medicine is very popular (in schools)
> until the first corpse has to be dissected, and it may be the same
> for computers, when the first debugging has to be done.
Unfortunately, "Computer Scientists" these days don't seem to have to
do mundane things like writing code. And they get snarky if anyone
suggests that there's anything wrong with this--they're working on the
Great Advances, code is for the trade schools, according to them.
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| Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364005 is a reply to message #363994] |
Thu, 22 February 2018 02:54 |
Charles Richmond
Messages: 2754
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2/21/2018 4:58 PM, mausg@mail.com wrote:
> On 2018-02-21, Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
>> On 2/21/2018 3:08 PM, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>> The Phila Inqr reported that compsci is a hot major.
>>>
>>> Across the country, the number of computer science majors
>>> at doctoral institutions has more than tripled in the last
>>> decade. It’s much hotter than it was during the dot-com
>>> blitz in the late 1990s, according to the national Computing
>>> Research Association. The group refers to the current surge
>>> as “Generation CS,” fueled by the pervasiveness of computing
>>> across society and the plethora of jobs, some with six-figure
>>> salaries and eye-popping signing bonuses.
>>>
>>> for full article please see:
>>> http://www.philly.com/philly/education/hot-major-on-campus-c omputer-science-20180218.html
>>>
>>
>> I hope this reflects a true interest in computers and programming... but
>> I fear a generation of half-baked programmers who are *only* in this for
>> the money.
>>
>
> I rememebr it being said that medicine is very popular (in schools)
> until the first corpse has to be dissected, and it may be the same
> for computers, when the first debugging has to be done.
>
>
Debugging can be challenging, but *not* as repugnant and off-putting as
cutting up a human body IMO. Some few actually enjoy debugging... I've
not been in that rare company myself.
--
numerist at aquaporin4 dot com
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| Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364006 is a reply to message #363997] |
Thu, 22 February 2018 02:59 |
Charles Richmond
Messages: 2754
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2/21/2018 6:10 PM, Mike Spencer wrote:
> Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> writes:
>
>> On 2/21/2018 3:08 PM, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>
>>> The Phila Inqr reported that compsci is a hot major.
>>> [snip]
>>
>> I hope this reflects a true interest in computers and programming... but
>> I fear a generation of half-baked programmers who are *only* in this for
>> the money.
>
> I professor at MIT I knew from the early 80s to the mid-90s told me
> that he found "these kids smart, scary-smart" but that many of them
> had told him that they were going the tech route only because they'd
> found they were good at it. Expected to put in some entry time in
> STEM jobs but that they were aiming for management where the real
> money lay.
>
The "real money" may lie in business... but there are better direct
routes to a business career than mixing in the tech world. IMO.
> Oh, well. Newton ended up at the Mint but at least he did a little
> serious work first. :-)
>
In the later years of his life, Newton pursued alchemy...
--
numerist at aquaporin4 dot com
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| Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364007 is a reply to message #364005] |
Thu, 22 February 2018 03:39 |
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Originally posted by: AndyW
On 22/02/2018 07:54, Charles Richmond wrote:
> Debugging can be challenging, but *not* as repugnant and off-putting as
> cutting up a human body IMO. Some few actually enjoy debugging... I've
> not been in that rare company myself.
I have to admit that I find debugging more satisfying than coding. I
used to gear my coding towards debugging with accessible variables,
clear structure etc. I was always later than my colleagues finishing the
coding but usually I was one of the first to complete debuggung and testing.
I do like Java for its clean structure but it does a lot of the
debugging and error prevention for you, takes away the fun.
Now Python is great for debugging, nothing quite like an int suddenly
becoming a string for making a fun debugging problem.
Andy
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| Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364012 is a reply to message #364007] |
Thu, 22 February 2018 04:51 |
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Originally posted by: Bob Eager
On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 08:39:59 +0000, AndyW wrote:
> On 22/02/2018 07:54, Charles Richmond wrote:
>
>> Debugging can be challenging, but *not* as repugnant and off-putting as
>> cutting up a human body IMO. Some few actually enjoy debugging... I've
>> not been in that rare company myself.
>
> I have to admit that I find debugging more satisfying than coding. I
> used to gear my coding towards debugging with accessible variables,
> clear structure etc. I was always later than my colleagues finishing the
> coding but usually I was one of the first to complete debuggung and
> testing.
I once saw a theory that programmers are carelewss with code because they
secretly enjoy the challenge of debugging!
Python? Try assembly language - or, if you are old enough to remember
BCPL, that's a language where you can store the address of some code in a
label and GOTO somewhere completely different...
--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
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| Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364013 is a reply to message #364012] |
Thu, 22 February 2018 05:38 |
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Originally posted by: Gareth's Downstairs Computer
On 22/02/2018 09:51, Bob Eager wrote:
>
> Python? Try assembly language - or, if you are old enough to remember
> BCPL, that's a language where you can store the address of some code in a
> label and GOTO somewhere completely different...
BCPL, C and CORAL, to my mind, all had one thing in common, and that
was to represent most of the capability of assembly language but
presented as a high level language, ie, in a human context as
opposed to a machine context.
AIUI the capability in C to cast a hex number as an integer, for
example, address was to enable access to memory mapped I/O and
such things as interrupt vectors.
The major failing of C as a high level language is that logical
and relational AND and OR operators are at the same precedence whereas
logical should be higher thus ridding the necessity of extra brackets.
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| Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364019 is a reply to message #364012] |
Thu, 22 February 2018 08:37 |
jmfbahciv
Messages: 6173
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Bob Eager wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 08:39:59 +0000, AndyW wrote:
>
>> On 22/02/2018 07:54, Charles Richmond wrote:
>>
>>> Debugging can be challenging, but *not* as repugnant and off-putting as
>>> cutting up a human body IMO. Some few actually enjoy debugging... I've
>>> not been in that rare company myself.
>>
>> I have to admit that I find debugging more satisfying than coding. I
>> used to gear my coding towards debugging with accessible variables,
>> clear structure etc. I was always later than my colleagues finishing the
>> coding but usually I was one of the first to complete debuggung and
>> testing.
>
> I once saw a theory that programmers are carelewss with code because they
> secretly enjoy the challenge of debugging!
Nah. That's boring debugging.
>
> Python? Try assembly language - or, if you are old enough to remember
> BCPL, that's a language where you can store the address of some code in a
> label and GOTO somewhere completely different...
JMF wanted his business cards to say, "Have EDDT, Will Travel". I
put it one his gravestone. If TW, JMF and I had decided to
quit DEC the first time TOPS-10 was cancelled, the "Have EDDT.."
would have been our motto.
/BAH
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| Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364020 is a reply to message #364005] |
Thu, 22 February 2018 08:37 |
jmfbahciv
Messages: 6173
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Charles Richmond wrote:
> On 2/21/2018 4:58 PM, mausg@mail.com wrote:
>> On 2018-02-21, Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
>>> On 2/21/2018 3:08 PM, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>>> The Phila Inqr reported that compsci is a hot major.
>>>>
>>>> Across the country, the number of computer science majors
>>>> at doctoral institutions has more than tripled in the last
>>>> decade. It’s much hotter than it was during the dot-com
>>>> blitz in the late 1990s, according to the national Computing
>>>> Research Association. The group refers to the current surge
>>>> as “Generation CS,” fueled by the pervasiveness of computing
>>>> across society and the plethora of jobs, some with six-figure
>>>> salaries and eye-popping signing bonuses.
>>>>
>>>> for full article please see:
>>>> http://www.philly.com/philly/education/hot-major-on-campus-c omputer-scien
ce-20180218.html
>>>>
>>>
>>> I hope this reflects a true interest in computers and programming... but
>>> I fear a generation of half-baked programmers who are *only* in this for
>>> the money.
>>>
>>
>> I rememebr it being said that medicine is very popular (in schools)
>> until the first corpse has to be dissected, and it may be the same
>> for computers, when the first debugging has to be done.
>>
>>
>
> Debugging can be challenging, but *not* as repugnant and off-putting as
> cutting up a human body IMO. Some few actually enjoy debugging... I've
> not been in that rare company myself.
JMF always said that he wrote code so he could have fun debugging.
/BAH
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| Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364039 is a reply to message #364019] |
Thu, 22 February 2018 13:46 |
Anne & Lynn Wheel
Messages: 3156
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> writes:
> JMF wanted his business cards to say, "Have EDDT, Will Travel". I put
> it one his gravestone. If TW, JMF and I had decided to quit DEC the
> first time TOPS-10 was cancelled, the "Have EDDT.." would have been
> our motto.
year after I had 2hr intro to programming, univ. hired me fulltime to be
responsible for ibm mainframe production systems (academic as well as
administration). I hated bugs, getting calls to fix something
.... sometimes in the middle of the night ... other times when i was
concentrating on some extremely complex progamming ... with regarding to
interrupting concentration ... from "Real Programmers Don't Eat Quiche"
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001e.html#31 High Level Language Systems was Re: computer books/authors (Re: FA:
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any Real Programmers are
around at 9 AM, it's because they were up all night.
.... aka offshift work frequently minimizes interrupts. My adversing to
bugs got worse when bugs became utilized for exploits ... led to last
product at IBM was HA/CMP ... no single point of failure ... and "fail
safe" ... past posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#hacmp
some related posts in C language related bugs&exploits
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subintegrity.html#buffer
and "availability" related posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#available
as aside, I thot something other than contact on business cards had no
point, tried hard to have it left blank ... then was told that there was
corporate standard that something had to be there ... then would just
have "staff member" ... as innoxious and meaningless as possible.
the other was we were first to have corporate internet email address
.... and then csnet (arpanet/internet) email address. Then corporate
said that business cards were only for customer contact information and
email addresses had to be removed. We pointed out that met then that it
also applied to internal "tieline" phone number ... which would also
have to be removed ... and csnet email could remain. old email
about being first with csnet gateway (also arpanet, 1982, slightly
before internetworking change over)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/internet.htm#email821022
and
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#email821022
more topic drift ... internetworking TCP/IP transition, from csnet
liaison
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000e.html#email821230
and
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000e.html#email830202
I did go through a period putting random zippy at end of email
.... also added selection from 6670 file ... recent reference
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018.html#103 1956 -- circuit reliability book
and now just stay with the following static.
--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970
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| Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364042 is a reply to message #363998] |
Thu, 22 February 2018 14:19 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 22:53:01 +0000, Huge wrote:
>
>> On 2018-02-21, Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
>>> On 2/21/2018 3:08 PM, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>>> The Phila Inqr reported that compsci is a hot major.
>>>>
>>>> Across the country, the number of computer science majors at doctoral
>>>> institutions has more than tripled in the last decade. It’s much
>>>> hotter than it was during the dot-com blitz in the late 1990s,
>>>> according to the national Computing Research Association. The group
>>>> refers to the current surge as “Generation CS,” fueled by the
>>>> pervasiveness of computing across society and the plethora of jobs,
>>>> some with six-figure salaries and eye-popping signing bonuses.
>>>>
>>>> for full article please see:
>>>> http://www.philly.com/philly/education/hot-major-on-campus-c omputer-
> science-20180218.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I hope this reflects a true interest in computers and programming...
>>> but I fear a generation of half-baked programmers who are *only* in
>>> this for the money.
>>
>> That's what happened last time.
>
> We used to offer an 'escape route' at the end of the first year. A joint
> Honours degree in computing (not CS) and business. Qite a good take-up,
> and it filtered out most of those who weren't really interested.
>
The problem with going from IT to management in most places seems to be
that you're labeled a computer geek and have to work vey hard to erase the
label. Businesses seem like to like me to like to promote people with
non-technical backgrounds, and of course MBAs for upper management. It's
almost like the way to get promoted from a computer job is to be a terrible
programmer.
--
Pete
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| Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364043 is a reply to message #364000] |
Thu, 22 February 2018 14:19 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 21 Feb 2018 22:58:49 GMT, mausg@mail.com wrote:
>
>> On 2018-02-21, Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
>>> On 2/21/2018 3:08 PM, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>>> The Phila Inqr reported that compsci is a hot major.
>>>>
>>>> Across the country, the number of computer science majors
>>>> at doctoral institutions has more than tripled in the last
>>>> decade. Its much hotter than it was during the dot-com
>>>> blitz in the late 1990s, according to the national Computing
>>>> Research Association. The group refers to the current surge
>>>> as Generation CS, fueled by the pervasiveness of computing
>>>> across society and the plethora of jobs, some with six-figure
>>>> salaries and eye-popping signing bonuses.
>>>>
>>>> for full article please see:
>>>> http://www.philly.com/philly/education/hot-major-on-campus-c omputer-science-20180218.html
>>>>
>>>
>>> I hope this reflects a true interest in computers and programming... but
>>> I fear a generation of half-baked programmers who are *only* in this for
>>> the money.
>>>
>>
>> I rememebr it being said that medicine is very popular (in schools)
>> until the first corpse has to be dissected, and it may be the same
>> for computers, when the first debugging has to be done.
>
> Unfortunately, "Computer Scientists" these days don't seem to have to
> do mundane things like writing code. And they get snarky if anyone
> suggests that there's anything wrong with this--they're working on the
> Great Advances, code is for the trade schools, according to them.
>
Always was like that. A local community college had great success with a
program that included COBOL, JCL, and CICS. Graduates usually had jobs
waiting when they got out.
--
Pete
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| Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364044 is a reply to message #364005] |
Thu, 22 February 2018 14:19 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
> On 2/21/2018 4:58 PM, mausg@mail.com wrote:
>> On 2018-02-21, Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
>>> On 2/21/2018 3:08 PM, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>>> The Phila Inqr reported that compsci is a hot major.
>>>>
>>>> Across the country, the number of computer science majors
>>>> at doctoral institutions has more than tripled in the last
>>>> decade. It’s much hotter than it was during the dot-com
>>>> blitz in the late 1990s, according to the national Computing
>>>> Research Association. The group refers to the current surge
>>>> as “Generation CS,” fueled by the pervasiveness of computing
>>>> across society and the plethora of jobs, some with six-figure
>>>> salaries and eye-popping signing bonuses.
>>>>
>>>> for full article please see:
>>>> http://www.philly.com/philly/education/hot-major-on-campus-c omputer-science-20180218.html
>>>>
>>>
>>> I hope this reflects a true interest in computers and programming... but
>>> I fear a generation of half-baked programmers who are *only* in this for
>>> the money.
>>>
>>
>> I rememebr it being said that medicine is very popular (in schools)
>> until the first corpse has to be dissected, and it may be the same
>> for computers, when the first debugging has to be done.
>>
>>
>
> Debugging can be challenging, but *not* as repugnant and off-putting as
> cutting up a human body IMO. Some few actually enjoy debugging... I've
> not been in that rare company myself.
>
Sometimes it's fun, or at least satisfying when you get to the "aha
moment."
--
Pete
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| Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364045 is a reply to message #364007] |
Thu, 22 February 2018 14:19 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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AndyW <Andy@nojunqmail.com> wrote:
> On 22/02/2018 07:54, Charles Richmond wrote:
>
>> Debugging can be challenging, but *not* as repugnant and off-putting as
>> cutting up a human body IMO. Some few actually enjoy debugging... I've
>> not been in that rare company myself.
>
> I have to admit that I find debugging more satisfying than coding. I
> used to gear my coding towards debugging with accessible variables,
> clear structure etc. I was always later than my colleagues finishing the
> coding but usually I was one of the first to complete debuggung and testing.
As I was writing Iron Spring PL/I I instrumented it with a lot of debugging
output, selectable by magic incantations. It's been invaluable over the
years. Some day I may optionally suppress the code using the preprocessor
(now in progress).
>
> I do like Java for its clean structure but it does a lot of the
> debugging and error prevention for you, takes away the fun.
> Now Python is great for debugging, nothing quite like an int suddenly
> becoming a string for making a fun debugging problem.
>
--
Pete
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| Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364049 is a reply to message #364000] |
Thu, 22 February 2018 14:29 |
Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2018-02-22, J Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> Unfortunately, "Computer Scientists" these days don't seem to have to
> do mundane things like writing code. And they get snarky if anyone
> suggests that there's anything wrong with this--they're working on the
> Great Advances, code is for the trade schools, according to them.
That's why I dropped out of CS in 1971, and got a programming job
in the Real World [tm]. Getting those payrolls and receivables out
took a change in mindset which turned out to be quite worthwhile.
--
/~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!
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| Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364050 is a reply to message #363997] |
Thu, 22 February 2018 14:29 |
Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2018-02-22, Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
> Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> writes:
>
>> On 2/21/2018 3:08 PM, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>
>>> The Phila Inqr reported that compsci is a hot major.
>>> [snip]
>>
>> I hope this reflects a true interest in computers and programming... but
>> I fear a generation of half-baked programmers who are *only* in this for
>> the money.
>
> I professor at MIT I knew from the early 80s to the mid-90s told me
> that he found "these kids smart, scary-smart" but that many of them
> had told him that they were going the tech route only because they'd
> found they were good at it. Expected to put in some entry time in
> STEM jobs but that they were aiming for management where the real
> money lay.
>
> Oh, well. Newton ended up at the Mint but at least he did a little
> serious work first. :-)
I've worked on code written by one of those people who viewed
programming as a stepping stone to management. Hell hath no
fury like that of one of those managers who sees what you've
done to his precious ancient spaghetti.
--
/~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!
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| Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364051 is a reply to message #364012] |
Thu, 22 February 2018 14:29 |
Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2018-02-22, Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 08:39:59 +0000, AndyW wrote:
>
>> On 22/02/2018 07:54, Charles Richmond wrote:
>>
>>> Debugging can be challenging, but *not* as repugnant and off-putting as
>>> cutting up a human body IMO. Some few actually enjoy debugging... I've
>>> not been in that rare company myself.
>>
>> I have to admit that I find debugging more satisfying than coding. I
>> used to gear my coding towards debugging with accessible variables,
>> clear structure etc. I was always later than my colleagues finishing the
>> coding but usually I was one of the first to complete debuggung and
>> testing.
>
> I once saw a theory that programmers are carelewss with code because they
> secretly enjoy the challenge of debugging!
>
> Python? Try assembly language - or, if you are old enough to remember
> BCPL, that's a language where you can store the address of some code in a
> label and GOTO somewhere completely different...
ALTER ENTER-GOLDILOCKS TO PROCEED TO HASTY-RETREAT.
See, you can even do it in COBOL. Who needs assembly language to do
instruction modification?
--
/~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!
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| Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364052 is a reply to message #364007] |
Thu, 22 February 2018 14:29 |
Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2018-02-22, AndyW <Andy@nojunqmail.com> wrote:
> On 22/02/2018 07:54, Charles Richmond wrote:
>
>> Debugging can be challenging, but *not* as repugnant and off-putting as
>> cutting up a human body IMO. Some few actually enjoy debugging... I've
>> not been in that rare company myself.
>
> I have to admit that I find debugging more satisfying than coding. I
> used to gear my coding towards debugging with accessible variables,
> clear structure etc. I was always later than my colleagues finishing the
> coding but usually I was one of the first to complete debuggung and testing.
And when it came time for maintenance you got even farther ahead, I'll bet.
I find designing more satisfying than coding, but the two work hand in hand.
Debugging is one of those things you just have to do to make things work.
It's sort of like cleaning the kitchen after cooking a meal - you have to
do it sooner or later or you wind up with a real mess.
--
/~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!
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| Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364054 is a reply to message #364042] |
Thu, 22 February 2018 14:35 |
Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2018-02-22, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> The problem with going from IT to management in most places seems to be
> that you're labeled a computer geek and have to work vey hard to erase
> the label. Businesses seem like to like me to like to promote people with
> non-technical backgrounds, and of course MBAs for upper management. It's
> almost like the way to get promoted from a computer job is to be a terrible
> programmer.
The process is probably driven from both ends; the terrible programmers
have properties that make them attractive to management, and the programming
department can't wait to promote them out of harm's way.
A lot of prominent managers started out as terrible programmers
<cough>Gates<cough>.
--
/~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!
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| Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364061 is a reply to message #364044] |
Thu, 22 February 2018 16:15 |
Charles Richmond
Messages: 2754
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2/22/2018 1:19 PM, Peter Flass wrote:
> Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
>>
>> [snip...] [snip...] [snip...]
>>
>> Debugging can be challenging, but *not* as repugnant and off-putting as
>> cutting up a human body IMO. Some few actually enjoy debugging... I've
>> not been in that rare company myself.
>>
>
> Sometimes it's fun, or at least satisfying when you get to the "aha
> moment."
>
<joke>
Psycho-analysis is a losing situation. You can go through counselling
for 20 years and still *not* find the solution to your problems. Or,
you can go to counselling for 20 years and *finally* find out what is
wrong... then you'll never forgive yourself for all the time you wasted!!!
</joke>
Debugging can be similar to this. You can work for hours to track down
a bug... only to find out that you did something very stupid to cause
the problem!!! Most bugs I tracked down... ended up being bone-headed
mistakes instead of important conceptual errors in implementing an
algorithm.
--
numerist at aquaporin4 dot com
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| Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364062 is a reply to message #364049] |
Thu, 22 February 2018 16:19 |
Charles Richmond
Messages: 2754
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2/22/2018 1:29 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2018-02-22, J Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Unfortunately, "Computer Scientists" these days don't seem to have to
>> do mundane things like writing code. And they get snarky if anyone
>> suggests that there's anything wrong with this--they're working on the
>> Great Advances, code is for the trade schools, according to them.
>
> That's why I dropped out of CS in 1971, and got a programming job
> in the Real World [tm]. Getting those payrolls and receivables out
> took a change in mindset which turned out to be quite worthwhile.
>
Planning and design are important... but I enjoy hammering out the
code!!! Part of the attraction of computers (for me and I think for
many others) is the idea that the computer will *automatically* do work
for you after you get the program right. So I think many programmers
originally got "sucked in" by laziness... the idea that the machine will
do all the work.
--
numerist at aquaporin4 dot com
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| Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364063 is a reply to message #364050] |
Thu, 22 February 2018 16:23 |
Charles Richmond
Messages: 2754
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2/22/2018 1:29 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2018-02-22, Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>
>> Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 2/21/2018 3:08 PM, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> The Phila Inqr reported that compsci is a hot major.
>>>> [snip]
>>>
>>> I hope this reflects a true interest in computers and programming... but
>>> I fear a generation of half-baked programmers who are *only* in this for
>>> the money.
>>
>> I professor at MIT I knew from the early 80s to the mid-90s told me
>> that he found "these kids smart, scary-smart" but that many of them
>> had told him that they were going the tech route only because they'd
>> found they were good at it. Expected to put in some entry time in
>> STEM jobs but that they were aiming for management where the real
>> money lay.
>>
>> Oh, well. Newton ended up at the Mint but at least he did a little
>> serious work first. :-)
>
> I've worked on code written by one of those people who viewed
> programming as a stepping stone to management. Hell hath no
> fury like that of one of those managers who sees what you've
> done to his precious ancient spaghetti.
>
Once I took over a program by a wretched programmer who was fired...
*not* promoted. I wish I still had the source code he wrote! You'd
*never* believe some of the stupid things he did.
In the C programming language, he used FALSE as a variable and made it
equal to 1. Instead of using a function for repeated code, he just
repeated the code over and over whenever it was needed. Indentation was
all over the place with *no* system at all. This code was so bad (and
since I *knew* what the program was supposed to do), I threw out his
code and re-wrote the whole program. Believe me... I was *much* better
off doing this... and got a working program much faster!
--
numerist at aquaporin4 dot com
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| Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364068 is a reply to message #364063] |
Thu, 22 February 2018 17:35 |
Jorgen Grahn
Messages: 606
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Thu, 2018-02-22, Charles Richmond wrote:
....
> Once I took over a program by a wretched programmer who was fired...
> *not* promoted. I wish I still had the source code he wrote! You'd
> *never* believe some of the stupid things he did.
>
> In the C programming language, he used FALSE as a variable and made it
> equal to 1. Instead of using a function for repeated code, he just
> repeated the code over and over whenever it was needed. Indentation was
> all over the place with *no* system at all. This code was so bad (and
> since I *knew* what the program was supposed to do), I threw out his
> code and re-wrote the whole program.
Had he been /really/ clever, he'd have made sure noone knew precisely
what the program was supposed to do ...
> Believe me... I was *much* better off doing this... and got a
> working program much faster!
/Jorgen
--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
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| Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364069 is a reply to message #364044] |
Thu, 22 February 2018 17:54 |
Jorgen Grahn
Messages: 606
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Thu, 2018-02-22, Peter Flass wrote:
> Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
>> On 2/21/2018 4:58 PM, mausg@mail.com wrote:
....
>>> I rememebr it being said that medicine is very popular (in
>>> schools) until the first corpse has to be dissected, and it may be
>>> the same for computers, when the first debugging has to be done.
>>
>> Debugging can be challenging, but *not* as repugnant and
>> off-putting as cutting up a human body IMO. Some few actually
>> enjoy debugging... I've not been in that rare company myself.
>
> Sometimes it's fun, or at least satisfying when you get to the "aha
> moment."
I like debugging, or more generally troubleshooting. Apart from the
stress, and the possibility of failure.
Things like getting reports of failures from customer sites at the
other side of the world, gathering the scant evidence, and trying to
find ways to reproduce the problem. Or devising ways of getting more
information.
On the other hand, I feel uneasy when I'm just writing code and noone
is going to run it for real until a year later. The code isn't
complete until it's in production.
/Jorgen
--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
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| Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364070 is a reply to message #364043] |
Thu, 22 February 2018 18:21 |
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Originally posted by: Bob Eager
On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 12:19:09 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:
> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 21 Feb 2018 22:58:49 GMT, mausg@mail.com wrote:
>>
>>> On 2018-02-21, Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
>>>> On 2/21/2018 3:08 PM, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>>> > The Phila Inqr reported that compsci is a hot major.
>>>> >
>>>> > Across the country, the number of computer science majors at
>>>> > doctoral institutions has more than tripled in the last decade.
Its
>>>> > much hotter than it was during the dot-com blitz in the late 1990s,
>>>> > according to the national Computing Research Association. The group
>>>> > refers to the current surge as Generation CS, fueled by the
>>>> > pervasiveness of computing across society and the plethora of jobs,
>>>> > some with six-figure salaries and eye-popping signing bonuses.
>>>> >
>>>> > for full article please see:
>>>> > http://www.philly.com/philly/education/hot-major-on-campus-c omputer-
science-20180218.html
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> I hope this reflects a true interest in computers and programming...
>>>> but I fear a generation of half-baked programmers who are *only* in
>>>> this for the money.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I rememebr it being said that medicine is very popular (in schools)
>>> until the first corpse has to be dissected, and it may be the same for
>>> computers, when the first debugging has to be done.
>>
>> Unfortunately, "Computer Scientists" these days don't seem to have to
>> do mundane things like writing code. And they get snarky if anyone
>> suggests that there's anything wrong with this--they're working on the
>> Great Advances, code is for the trade schools, according to them.
>>
>>
> Always was like that. A local community college had great success with a
> program that included COBOL, JCL, and CICS. Graduates usually had jobs
> waiting when they got out.
We used to have the sixth week of the first term in CS as a 'project
week'. Really as a bit of a rest. In theory the students were suppose to
do *something*. We laid on compulsory stuff for two and a half days and
then let them have a long weekend.
So, after five weeks of CS, they got a two and a half day intensive
course on UNIX (command line only) and shell programming.
I am still (somewhere welse) giving that course. It's a bit of a culture
shock.
--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
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| Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364071 is a reply to message #364051] |
Thu, 22 February 2018 18:22 |
|
|
Originally posted by: Bob Eager
On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 19:29:18 +0000, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2018-02-22, Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 08:39:59 +0000, AndyW wrote:
>>
>>> On 22/02/2018 07:54, Charles Richmond wrote:
>>>
>>>> Debugging can be challenging, but *not* as repugnant and off-putting
>>>> as cutting up a human body IMO. Some few actually enjoy debugging...
>>>> I've not been in that rare company myself.
>>>
>>> I have to admit that I find debugging more satisfying than coding. I
>>> used to gear my coding towards debugging with accessible variables,
>>> clear structure etc. I was always later than my colleagues finishing
>>> the coding but usually I was one of the first to complete debuggung
>>> and testing.
>>
>> I once saw a theory that programmers are carelewss with code because
>> they secretly enjoy the challenge of debugging!
>>
>> Python? Try assembly language - or, if you are old enough to remember
>> BCPL, that's a language where you can store the address of some code in
>> a label and GOTO somewhere completely different...
>
> ALTER ENTER-GOLDILOCKS TO PROCEED TO HASTY-RETREAT.
>
> See, you can even do it in COBOL. Who needs assembly language to do
> instruction modification?
I'll raise you a table of octal values, then GOTO to the start of the
table for some embedded code!
--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
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| Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364072 is a reply to message #364062] |
Thu, 22 February 2018 20:02 |
Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
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On 2018-02-22, Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
> On 2/22/2018 1:29 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> On 2018-02-22, J Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Unfortunately, "Computer Scientists" these days don't seem to have to
>>> do mundane things like writing code. And they get snarky if anyone
>>> suggests that there's anything wrong with this--they're working on the
>>> Great Advances, code is for the trade schools, according to them.
>>
>> That's why I dropped out of CS in 1971, and got a programming job
>> in the Real World [tm]. Getting those payrolls and receivables out
>> took a change in mindset which turned out to be quite worthwhile.
>
> Planning and design are important... but I enjoy hammering out the
> code!!! Part of the attraction of computers (for me and I think for
> many others) is the idea that the computer will *automatically* do work
> for you after you get the program right. So I think many programmers
> originally got "sucked in" by laziness... the idea that the machine will
> do all the work.
Eventually it does. It just takes enough work to get there that you have
to ask yourself whether it's worth it. For one-shot jobs, often not.
(But remember, the definition of a one-shot job is something that a
user wants only once... this week.)
--
/~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!
|
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| Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364073 is a reply to message #364061] |
Thu, 22 February 2018 20:02 |
Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
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On 2018-02-22, Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
> Debugging can be similar to this. You can work for hours to track down
> a bug... only to find out that you did something very stupid to cause
> the problem!!! Most bugs I tracked down... ended up being bone-headed
> mistakes instead of important conceptual errors in implementing an
> algorithm.
And, of course, after slaving over it for hours, a cow orker walking by
will spot it instantly.
--
/~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!
|
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| Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364074 is a reply to message #364061] |
Thu, 22 February 2018 20:04 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
> On 2/22/2018 1:19 PM, Peter Flass wrote:
>> Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> [snip...] [snip...] [snip...]
>>>
>>> Debugging can be challenging, but *not* as repugnant and off-putting as
>>> cutting up a human body IMO. Some few actually enjoy debugging... I've
>>> not been in that rare company myself.
>>>
>>
>> Sometimes it's fun, or at least satisfying when you get to the "aha
>> moment."
>>
>
> <joke>
>
> Psycho-analysis is a losing situation. You can go through counselling
> for 20 years and still *not* find the solution to your problems. Or,
> you can go to counselling for 20 years and *finally* find out what is
> wrong... then you'll never forgive yourself for all the time you wasted!!!
>
> </joke>
>
> Debugging can be similar to this. You can work for hours to track down
> a bug... only to find out that you did something very stupid to cause
> the problem!!! Most bugs I tracked down... ended up being bone-headed
> mistakes instead of important conceptual errors in implementing an
> algorithm.
>
>
Yup
--
Pete
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| Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364079 is a reply to message #364062] |
Thu, 22 February 2018 21:07 |
Anne & Lynn Wheel
Messages: 3156
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> writes:
> Planning and design are important... but I enjoy hammering out the
> code!!! Part of the attraction of computers (for me and I think for
> many others) is the idea that the computer will *automatically* do
> work for you after you get the program right. So I think many
> programmers originally got "sucked in" by laziness... the idea that
> the machine will do all the work.
re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018b.html#56 Computer science hot major in college (article)
I was brought into as consultant at small client/server startup that
wanted to do payment transactions on their server. They also had
invented this technology they called "SSL" they wanted to use ... that
is now frequently called "electronic commerce". I had also made several
security recommendations, many of which were almost immediately
violated, continuing to account for some number of exploits.
I would include in talks that it takes 4-10 the effort to take a well
designed, implemented and tested application and turn it into a
"service" (contingency for failures, exploits, attacks, availability,
etc). some past posts mentioning 4-10 time effort:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003g.html#62 IBM says AMD dead in 5yrs ... -- Microsoft Monopoly vs. IBM
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004l.html#49 "Perfect" or "Provable" security both crypto and non-crypto?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006n.html#20 The System/360 Model 20 Wasn't As Bad As All That
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007f.html#37 Is computer history taught now?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007h.html#78 John W. Backus, 82, Fortran developer, dies
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007n.html#77 PSI MIPS
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007o.html#23 Outsourcing loosing steam?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007p.html#54 Industry Standard Time To Analyze A Line Of Code
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008e.html#41 IBM announced z10 ..why so fast...any problem on z 9
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008e.html#50 fraying infrastructure
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008n.html#35 Builders V. Breakers
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009.html#0 Is SUN going to become x86'ed ??
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011i.html#27 PDCA vs. OODA
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011k.html#67 Somewhat off-topic: comp-arch.net cloned, possibly hacked
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012d.html#44 Faster, Better, Cheaper: Why Not Pick All Three?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014f.html#13 Before the Internet: The golden age of online services
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014m.html#86 Economic Failures of HTTPS Encryption
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014m.html#146 LEO
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015e.html#10 The real story of how the Internet became so vulnerable
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015e.html#16 The real story of how the Internet became so vulnerable
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017.html#27 History of Mainframe Cloud
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017f.html#23 MVS vs HASP vs JES (was 2821)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017i.html#18 progress in e-mail, such as AOL
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017j.html#42 Tech: we didn't mean for it to turn out like this
--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970
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| Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364083 is a reply to message #364073] |
Thu, 22 February 2018 23:10 |
Charles Richmond
Messages: 2754
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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On 2/22/2018 7:02 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2018-02-22, Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
>
>> Debugging can be similar to this. You can work for hours to track down
>> a bug... only to find out that you did something very stupid to cause
>> the problem!!! Most bugs I tracked down... ended up being bone-headed
>> mistakes instead of important conceptual errors in implementing an
>> algorithm.
>
> And, of course, after slaving over it for hours, a cow orker walking by
> will spot it instantly.
>
Sometimes that's true... That's why code reviews can be so useful: you
have to explain your code to cow-orkers and you get to look harder at
the code when you explain.
--
numerist at aquaporin4 dot com
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| Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364086 is a reply to message #364069] |
Thu, 22 February 2018 23:21 |
Charles Richmond
Messages: 2754
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2/22/2018 4:54 PM, Jorgen Grahn wrote:
> On Thu, 2018-02-22, Peter Flass wrote:
>> Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
>>> On 2/21/2018 4:58 PM, mausg@mail.com wrote:
> ...
>>>> I rememebr it being said that medicine is very popular (in
>>>> schools) until the first corpse has to be dissected, and it may be
>>>> the same for computers, when the first debugging has to be done.
>>>
>>> Debugging can be challenging, but *not* as repugnant and
>>> off-putting as cutting up a human body IMO. Some few actually
>>> enjoy debugging... I've not been in that rare company myself.
>>
>> Sometimes it's fun, or at least satisfying when you get to the "aha
>> moment."
>
> I like debugging, or more generally troubleshooting. Apart from the
> stress, and the possibility of failure.
>
> Things like getting reports of failures from customer sites at the
> other side of the world, gathering the scant evidence, and trying to
> find ways to reproduce the problem. Or devising ways of getting more
> information.
>
> On the other hand, I feel uneasy when I'm just writing code and no one
> is going to run it for real until a year later. The code isn't
> complete until it's in production.
>
In a book entitled _The Devouring Fungus and Other Tales of the Computer
Age_, there was a story about a computer that crashed every Tuesday
around four o'clock. I was found that the janitor came in at that time
and plugged in his electric floor buffer... crashing the computer.
After things were corrected, the higher-ups were told "it was a buffer
problem"!!!
Fast forward to a PPoE, where a computer on-site and connected to the
network... would crash each Thursday at two o'clock. We got the guy at
the effected site to sit around on Thursday afternoon to see what
happened. Sure enough, the cleaning help came in and plugged the vacuum
cleaner in the computer's UPS! Problem solved.
See... interest in computer humor can be helpful! :-)
--
numerist at aquaporin4 dot com
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| Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364087 is a reply to message #364086] |
Fri, 23 February 2018 00:18 |
Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2018-02-23, Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
> In a book entitled _The Devouring Fungus and Other Tales of the Computer
> Age_, there was a story about a computer that crashed every Tuesday
> around four o'clock. I was found that the janitor came in at that time
> and plugged in his electric floor buffer... crashing the computer.
> After things were corrected, the higher-ups were told "it was a buffer
> problem"!!!
>
> Fast forward to a PPoE, where a computer on-site and connected to the
> network... would crash each Thursday at two o'clock. We got the guy at
> the effected site to sit around on Thursday afternoon to see what
> happened. Sure enough, the cleaning help came in and plugged the vacuum
> cleaner in the computer's UPS! Problem solved.
>
> See... interest in computer humor can be helpful! :-)
The story I like (and I read it here, haven't read the book but it
appears I should) was about the system that would go down overnight
so someone stayed around all night to watch it. In the wee hours a
janitor would enter the room and push his cart between two rows of
disk drives; there was just enough room to do this and if the cart
wobbled it would hit the offline button on one of the drives.
The brilliance of the solution was that instead of moving the drives
a bit farther apart - which would reduce but not eliminate the problem -
they moved the drives just enough closer together that there was no
longer room for the janitor to get the cart between them at all.
That solved the problem completely and permanently.
--
/~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!
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| Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364090 is a reply to message #364043] |
Fri, 23 February 2018 01:21 |
Mike Spencer
Messages: 997
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Unfortunately, "Computer Scientists" these days don't seem to have to
>> do mundane things like writing code. And they get snarky if anyone
>> suggests that there's anything wrong with this--they're working on the
>> Great Advances, code is for the trade schools, according to them.
>>
>
> Always was like that. A local community college had great success with a
> program that included COBOL, JCL, and CICS. Graduates usually had jobs
> waiting when they got out.
In 1964, when my school had one computer (IBM 1620) they offered a
course in "computer programming" for which I signed up. It was taught
by a guy seconded from industry. He specified a textbook on numerical
methods and proposed to teach us that. Half the class announced that
they would drop the course if he didn't teach us how write programs.
Despite his protest that you can't write programs unless you know the
math, he saw the light and gave us an intro to Fortran. We each wrote
one small program related to our disparate majors -- key punch, cards,
submit to operator, line printer and all that.
Didn't touch a computer again until 1980 when I borrowed an Apple ][
and learned Basic. Then not again for seven years, when I got an
Osborne I, learned C, z80 assembler. Now I'm the digital equivalent
of a chronic alcoholic. Might never have happened if I'd dropped that
course in '64.
--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
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| Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364094 is a reply to message #364012] |
Fri, 23 February 2018 02:42 |
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Originally posted by: AndyW
On 22/02/2018 09:51, Bob Eager wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 08:39:59 +0000, AndyW wrote:
>
>> On 22/02/2018 07:54, Charles Richmond wrote:
>>
>>> Debugging can be challenging, but *not* as repugnant and off-putting as
>>> cutting up a human body IMO. Some few actually enjoy debugging... I've
>>> not been in that rare company myself.
>>
>> I have to admit that I find debugging more satisfying than coding. I
>> used to gear my coding towards debugging with accessible variables,
>> clear structure etc. I was always later than my colleagues finishing the
>> coding but usually I was one of the first to complete debuggung and
>> testing.
>
> I once saw a theory that programmers are carelewss with code because they
> secretly enjoy the challenge of debugging!
>
> Python? Try assembly language - or, if you are old enough to remember
> BCPL, that's a language where you can store the address of some code in a
> label and GOTO somewhere completely different...
>
>
>
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