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Nostalgia [message #363515] Thu, 15 February 2018 08:23 Go to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Gareth's Downstairs Computer

Gazing at my bookcase and noting a 1971 copy of the
PDP8's Small Computer Handbook.

That was 47 years ago, and then 47 years before then
takes us back to 1924, well before the days of any
working programmable machines (pace the Jacquard Loom)

Now that the Raspberry Pi 3 gives us a quadcore 64 bit
processor with 1GB of RAM for only a few £ / $, I realise that a lot of
our nostalgia and folklore of those days is for something
very primitive compare to today's offerings
Re: Nostalgia [message #363516 is a reply to message #363515] Thu, 15 February 2018 08:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mausg is currently offline  mausg
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On 2018-02-15, Gareth's Downstairs Computer <headstone255.but.not.these.five.words@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Gazing at my bookcase and noting a 1971 copy of the
> PDP8's Small Computer Handbook.
>
> That was 47 years ago, and then 47 years before then
> takes us back to 1924, well before the days of any
> working programmable machines (pace the Jacquard Loom)
>
> Now that the Raspberry Pi 3 gives us a quadcore 64 bit
> processor with 1GB of RAM for only a few £ / $, I realise that a lot of
> our nostalgia and folklore of those days is for something
> very primitive compare to today's offerings

All the Raspberry needs is a largeish laptop case, in a corner of
which it could nestle. Still, the old golden rule, Garbage in,
Garbage out.


--
greymaus.ireland.ie
Just_Another_Grumpy_Old_Man
Re: Nostalgia [message #363528 is a reply to message #363516] Thu, 15 February 2018 12:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Quadibloc is currently offline  Quadibloc
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On Thursday, February 15, 2018 at 6:58:46 AM UTC-7, ma...@mail.com wrote:

> All the Raspberry needs is a largeish laptop case, in a corner of
> which it could nestle.

Well, there are videos on YouTube about building a laptop case, although not
wastefully large, for a Raspberry Pi 2. Most of them, though, use a wireless
keyboard, which seems silly to me.

John Savard
Re: Nostalgia [message #363538 is a reply to message #363515] Thu, 15 February 2018 14:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jon Elson is currently offline  Jon Elson
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Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote:

> Gazing at my bookcase and noting a 1971 copy of the
> PDP8's Small Computer Handbook.
>
> That was 47 years ago, and then 47 years before then
> takes us back to 1924, well before the days of any
> working programmable machines (pace the Jacquard Loom)
>
> Now that the Raspberry Pi 3 gives us a quadcore 64 bit
> processor with 1GB of RAM for only a few £ / $, I realise that a lot of
> our nostalgia and folklore of those days is for something
> very primitive compare to today's offerings
Oh, yeah! I started out working on 12-bit discrete transistor minis like
the PDP-5 and LINC, and even fiddled a bit with a Bendix G-15 (vacuum tube
and drum memory). And, took programming classes on the univerity's IBM
360/50, editing programs on punch cards. BLECH!!

Even the uVAX-II I put together in 1986 and ran for about 21 years was some
1000 X slower than an ordinary desktop PC.

Jon
Re: Nostalgia [message #363541 is a reply to message #363538] Thu, 15 February 2018 15:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Gareth's Downstairs Computer

On 15/02/2018 19:47, Jon Elson wrote:
> Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote:
>
>> Gazing at my bookcase and noting a 1971 copy of the
>> PDP8's Small Computer Handbook.
>>
>> That was 47 years ago, and then 47 years before then
>> takes us back to 1924, well before the days of any
>> working programmable machines (pace the Jacquard Loom)
>>
>> Now that the Raspberry Pi 3 gives us a quadcore 64 bit
>> processor with 1GB of RAM for only a few £ / $, I realise that a lot of
>> our nostalgia and folklore of those days is for something
>> very primitive compare to today's offerings
> Oh, yeah! I started out working on 12-bit discrete transistor minis like
> the PDP-5 and LINC, and even fiddled a bit with a Bendix G-15 (vacuum tube
> and drum memory). And, took programming classes on the univerity's IBM
> 360/50, editing programs on punch cards. BLECH!!
>
> Even the uVAX-II I put together in 1986 and ran for about 21 years was some
> 1000 X slower than an ordinary desktop PC.
>

ISTR some very slow instructions on the PDP11-20; my first hands-on
experience as a paid university vacation intern in 1971 in
the Scientific Services Department sited at Portishead Power Station ...

HALT indefinite!
RESET 20 milliSecs
BICB @(REG)+ , @(REG)+ 18uSecs.
Re: Nostalgia [message #363545 is a reply to message #363538] Thu, 15 February 2018 16:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
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Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> wrote:
> Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote:
>
>> Gazing at my bookcase and noting a 1971 copy of the
>> PDP8's Small Computer Handbook.
>>
>> That was 47 years ago, and then 47 years before then
>> takes us back to 1924, well before the days of any
>> working programmable machines (pace the Jacquard Loom)
>>
>> Now that the Raspberry Pi 3 gives us a quadcore 64 bit
>> processor with 1GB of RAM for only a few £ / $, I realise that a lot of
>> our nostalgia and folklore of those days is for something
>> very primitive compare to today's offerings
> Oh, yeah! I started out working on 12-bit discrete transistor minis like
> the PDP-5 and LINC, and even fiddled a bit with a Bendix G-15 (vacuum tube
> and drum memory). And, took programming classes on the univerity's IBM
> 360/50, editing programs on punch cards. BLECH!!
>
> Even the uVAX-II I put together in 1986 and ran for about 21 years was some
> 1000 X slower than an ordinary desktop PC.
>

The nostalgia is for the sights, sounds, and smells those days. I can still
recall leaning over the 1132 printer waiting for my printout to start.
We're also nostalgic for out first acquaintance with the wonders of
computers. Now every kid over 8 knows more than we did 50 years ago. If I
still wanted to play with an 1130 I could use an emulator, but it wouldn't
be fun anymore. I'd have to be crazy to want to get involved with ancient
hardware.

--
Pete
Re: Nostalgia [message #363549 is a reply to message #363545] Thu, 15 February 2018 16:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Quadibloc is currently offline  Quadibloc
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On Thursday, February 15, 2018 at 2:14:16 PM UTC-7, Peter Flass wrote:

> The nostalgia is for the sights, sounds, and smells those days.

That is a part of it.

However, there is more to it.

One sight, the blinking lights of a computer front panel, for example, has a
practical value - theoretically, it lets you see everything the computer is
doing. What a great idea for security!

As computers got more powerful, though, front panels became less practical.

And when a computer terminal could cost over $1,000, since the computer itself
cost millions, naturally it would have a high-quality keyboard.

And when computers communicated to the user by typing back... not with a
graphical interface, computer programs were simpler to write.

As computers have become more powerful, we have lost certain positive things we
had when they were much weaker. Having those things while retaining the much
greater power and economy of today's computers, though, isn't an easy puzzle to
solve.

John Savard
Re: Nostalgia [message #363553 is a reply to message #363515] Thu, 15 February 2018 16:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
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On 2018-02-15, Gareth's Downstairs Computer
<headstone255.but.not.these.five.words@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Gazing at my bookcase and noting a 1971 copy of the
> PDP8's Small Computer Handbook.
>
> That was 47 years ago, and then 47 years before then
> takes us back to 1924, well before the days of any
> working programmable machines (pace the Jacquard Loom)
>
> Now that the Raspberry Pi 3 gives us a quadcore 64 bit
> processor with 1GB of RAM for only a few £ / $, I realise
> that a lot of our nostalgia and folklore of those days is
> for something very primitive compare to today's offerings

Still, people did some amazing things with those very
primitive machines. Put a man on the moon, for instance.

--
/~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!
Re: Nostalgia [message #363556 is a reply to message #363549] Thu, 15 February 2018 17:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
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On 2018-02-15, Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

> As computers have become more powerful, we have lost certain positive
> things we had when they were much weaker.

Like knowing how not to create bloated, incomprehensible systems.
Nowadays, good design has been replaced by brute force.
"Who cares if it's a bubble sort? I have a fast processor."
The worst part is that there's now enough power to make
payroll sytems even more convoluted than ever; it's a
bureaucrat's wet dream but everyone else's nightmare.

There are so many horror stories about hundreds of millions of dollars
spent on computer systems that don't work. I dream about a day when
people get so fed up about things like not getting paid (e.g. the
Canadian government's Phoenix payroll system, which only fulfils
the first half of the legend by going down in flames) that the
KISS principle will one day re-emerge.

> Having those things while retaining the much greater power and economy
> of today's computers, though, isn't an easy puzzle to solve.

The worst part is that some people don't want it solved.
See Lynn's posts about the success of failure.

--
/~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!
Re: Nostalgia [message #363576 is a reply to message #363556] Thu, 15 February 2018 21:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On 15 Feb 2018 22:02:39 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
wrote:

> On 2018-02-15, Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>> As computers have become more powerful, we have lost certain positive
>> things we had when they were much weaker.
>
> Like knowing how not to create bloated, incomprehensible systems.
> Nowadays, good design has been replaced by brute force.
> "Who cares if it's a bubble sort? I have a fast processor."
> The worst part is that there's now enough power to make
> payroll sytems even more convoluted than ever; it's a
> bureaucrat's wet dream but everyone else's nightmare.
>
> There are so many horror stories about hundreds of millions of dollars
> spent on computer systems that don't work. I dream about a day when
> people get so fed up about things like not getting paid (e.g. the
> Canadian government's Phoenix payroll system, which only fulfils
> the first half of the legend by going down in flames) that the
> KISS principle will one day re-emerge.
>
>> Having those things while retaining the much greater power and economy
>> of today's computers, though, isn't an easy puzzle to solve.
>
> The worst part is that some people don't want it solved.
> See Lynn's posts about the success of failure.

Today they do ridiculous things like have a "robot" read and OCR the
entire display to figure out where a Telnet session is so that it can
then read the data off the green screen and type commands into it,
where identifying the underlying database and writing a few lines of
COBOL would likely product the same result at thousands of times the
speed.
Re: Nostalgia [message #363621 is a reply to message #363576] Fri, 16 February 2018 08:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
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J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 15 Feb 2018 22:02:39 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2018-02-15, Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> As computers have become more powerful, we have lost certain positive
>>> things we had when they were much weaker.
>>
>> Like knowing how not to create bloated, incomprehensible systems.
>> Nowadays, good design has been replaced by brute force.
>> "Who cares if it's a bubble sort? I have a fast processor."
>> The worst part is that there's now enough power to make
>> payroll sytems even more convoluted than ever; it's a
>> bureaucrat's wet dream but everyone else's nightmare.
>>
>> There are so many horror stories about hundreds of millions of dollars
>> spent on computer systems that don't work. I dream about a day when
>> people get so fed up about things like not getting paid (e.g. the
>> Canadian government's Phoenix payroll system, which only fulfils
>> the first half of the legend by going down in flames) that the
>> KISS principle will one day re-emerge.
>>
>>> Having those things while retaining the much greater power and economy
>>> of today's computers, though, isn't an easy puzzle to solve.
>>
>> The worst part is that some people don't want it solved.
>> See Lynn's posts about the success of failure.
>
> Today they do ridiculous things like have a "robot" read and OCR the
> entire display to figure out where a Telnet session is so that it can
> then read the data off the green screen and type commands into it,
> where identifying the underlying database and writing a few lines of
> COBOL would likely product the same result at thousands of times the
> speed.
>

Sure, now. A lot of robotics is still in the experimental "playing"
stages. Just wait.

--
Pete
Re: Nostalgia [message #363628 is a reply to message #363553] Fri, 16 February 2018 09:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jmfbahciv is currently offline  jmfbahciv
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Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2018-02-15, Gareth's Downstairs Computer
> <headstone255.but.not.these.five.words@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Gazing at my bookcase and noting a 1971 copy of the
>> PDP8's Small Computer Handbook.
>>
>> That was 47 years ago, and then 47 years before then
>> takes us back to 1924, well before the days of any
>> working programmable machines (pace the Jacquard Loom)
>>
>> Now that the Raspberry Pi 3 gives us a quadcore 64 bit
>> processor with 1GB of RAM for only a few £ / $, I realise
>> that a lot of our nostalgia and folklore of those days is
>> for something very primitive compare to today's offerings
>
> Still, people did some amazing things with those very
> primitive machines. Put a man on the moon, for instance.
>
We couldn't afford bloat.

/BAH
Re: Nostalgia [message #363629 is a reply to message #363553] Fri, 16 February 2018 09:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charles Richmond is currently offline  Charles Richmond
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On 2/15/2018 3:44 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2018-02-15, Gareth's Downstairs Computer
> <headstone255.but.not.these.five.words@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Gazing at my bookcase and noting a 1971 copy of the
>> PDP8's Small Computer Handbook.
>>
>> That was 47 years ago, and then 47 years before then
>> takes us back to 1924, well before the days of any
>> working programmable machines (pace the Jacquard Loom)
>>
>> Now that the Raspberry Pi 3 gives us a quadcore 64 bit
>> processor with 1GB of RAM for only a few £ / $, I realise
>> that a lot of our nostalgia and folklore of those days is
>> for something very primitive compare to today's offerings
>
> Still, people did some amazing things with those very
> primitive machines. Put a man on the moon, for instance.
>

Sometimes people can get a lot more done... when they realize that they
have to work harder with primitive tools and knowledge...

--
numerist at aquaporin4 dot com
Re: Nostalgia [message #363639 is a reply to message #363629] Fri, 16 February 2018 10:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
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On Fri, 16 Feb 2018 08:45:22 -0600
Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> wrote:

> Sometimes people can get a lot more done... when they realize that they
> have to work harder with primitive tools and knowledge...

There is an old story about an experiment, I think by de Bono, in
which children were asked to cross a room without touching the floor -
prizes for doing it fastest.

First they were given two planks and two pieces of rope, each
solved the problem the same way by fixing a rope to each plank at both ends
so that they could put a plank under each foot and lift it with the rope
as they walked.

Then they were given just one plank and one piece of rope, again
they all came up with the same solution fix the rope as before but this
time jump and swing the plank forward. This method was much faster than
walking on two planks.

The second solution could have been used the first time and would
have won the prize, but having more than they needed caused them to miss
seeing the best solution.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Nostalgia [message #363642 is a reply to message #363629] Fri, 16 February 2018 11:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
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On 2018-02-16, Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> wrote:

> On 2/15/2018 3:44 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> On 2018-02-15, Gareth's Downstairs Computer
>> <headstone255.but.not.these.five.words@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Gazing at my bookcase and noting a 1971 copy of the
>>> PDP8's Small Computer Handbook.
>>>
>>> That was 47 years ago, and then 47 years before then
>>> takes us back to 1924, well before the days of any
>>> working programmable machines (pace the Jacquard Loom)
>>>
>>> Now that the Raspberry Pi 3 gives us a quadcore 64 bit
>>> processor with 1GB of RAM for only a few £ / $, I realise
>>> that a lot of our nostalgia and folklore of those days is
>>> for something very primitive compare to today's offerings
>>
>> Still, people did some amazing things with those very
>> primitive machines. Put a man on the moon, for instance.
>
> Sometimes people can get a lot more done... when they realize that
> they have to work harder with primitive tools and knowledge...

Or, as the saying goes, "work smarter, not harder."

--
/~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!
Re: Nostalgia [message #363643 is a reply to message #363515] Fri, 16 February 2018 11:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
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On 2018-02-16, Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:

> On 2018-02-15, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> [22 lines snipped]
>
>> The nostalgia is for the sights, sounds, and smells those days. I can still
>> recall leaning over the 1132 printer waiting for my printout to start.
>> We're also nostalgic for out first acquaintance with the wonders of
>> computers. Now every kid over 8 knows more than we did 50 years ago.
>
> I consider that unlikely.

Agreed. I can't accept that the creators of the Internet don't know
as much as the script kiddie who abuses it.

Too many doting parents think their kid is a computer genius
simply because he knows how to click a mouse.

--
/~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!
Re: Nostalgia [message #363649 is a reply to message #363643] Fri, 16 February 2018 12:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Gareth's Downstairs Computer

On 16/02/2018 16:36, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2018-02-16, Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 2018-02-15, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> [22 lines snipped]
>>
>>> The nostalgia is for the sights, sounds, and smells those days. I can still
>>> recall leaning over the 1132 printer waiting for my printout to start.
>>> We're also nostalgic for out first acquaintance with the wonders of
>>> computers. Now every kid over 8 knows more than we did 50 years ago.
>>
>> I consider that unlikely.
>
> Agreed. I can't accept that the creators of the Internet don't know
> as much as the script kiddie who abuses it.
>
> Too many doting parents think their kid is a computer genius
> simply because he knows how to click a mouse.
>

I once contrated in a company where the meme that kids were
ace on computers was held. The son of one of the directors had
produced their first computerised product, all in machine code,
and all typed in manually into a "Softy" PROM programmer.
Re: Nostalgia [message #363653 is a reply to message #363649] Fri, 16 February 2018 13:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mausg is currently offline  mausg
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On 2018-02-16, Gareth's Downstairs Computer <headstone255.but.not.these.five.words@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 16/02/2018 16:36, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>> On 2018-02-16, Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2018-02-15, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> [22 lines snipped]
>>>
>>>> The nostalgia is for the sights, sounds, and smells those days. I can still
>>>> recall leaning over the 1132 printer waiting for my printout to start.
>>>> We're also nostalgic for out first acquaintance with the wonders of
>>>> computers. Now every kid over 8 knows more than we did 50 years ago.
>>>
>>> I consider that unlikely.
>>
>> Agreed. I can't accept that the creators of the Internet don't know
>> as much as the script kiddie who abuses it.
>>
>> Too many doting parents think their kid is a computer genius
>> simply because he knows how to click a mouse.
>>
>
> I once contrated in a company where the meme that kids were
> ace on computers was held. The son of one of the directors had
> produced their first computerised product, all in machine code,
> and all typed in manually into a "Softy" PROM programmer.
>

I think it was a 'Far Side' cartoon, Mom and Pop are admiring sonny, and
are saying "They told us there is a big future in Gaming", while sonny
taps away.


--
greymaus.ireland.ie
Just_Another_Grumpy_Old_Man
Re: Nostalgia [message #363666 is a reply to message #363549] Fri, 16 February 2018 14:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Mike Causer

On Thu, 15 Feb 2018 13:25:33 -0800 (PST)
Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

> And when computers communicated to the user by typing back... not
> with a graphical interface, computer programs were simpler to write.

Somewhat awkward to use when trying to design (e.g.) a power station's
steelwork & piping. Still, that's how we started using CAD.


Mike
Re: Nostalgia [message #363672 is a reply to message #363666] Fri, 16 February 2018 16:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Gareth's Downstairs Computer

On 16/02/2018 19:46, Mike Causer wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Feb 2018 13:25:33 -0800 (PST)
> Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>> And when computers communicated to the user by typing back... not
>> with a graphical interface, computer programs were simpler to write.
>
> Somewhat awkward to use when trying to design (e.g.) a power station's
> steelwork & piping. Still, that's how we started using CAD.
>

GD & CD Barnwood?
Re: Nostalgia [message #363676 is a reply to message #363545] Fri, 16 February 2018 16:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hancock4 is currently offline  hancock4
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On Thursday, February 15, 2018 at 4:14:16 PM UTC-5, Peter Flass wrote:

> The nostalgia is for the sights, sounds, and smells those days. I can still
> recall leaning over the 1132 printer waiting for my printout to start.
> We're also nostalgic for out first acquaintance with the wonders of
> computers. Now every kid over 8 knows more than we did 50 years ago. If I
> still wanted to play with an 1130 I could use an emulator, but it wouldn't
> be fun anymore. I'd have to be crazy to want to get involved with ancient
> hardware.

Did you ever get your printout?<g> The 1132 was so S L O W !

I think our nostalgia is not as much for the "sights and sounds",
but rather "first acquaintance with the wonders of computers".

I well remember writing my first BASIC program that did a bunch
of calculations. In those days we didn't have calculators, and it
was amazing to see (a) writing a very simple statement with a
few LET statements do all the work and (b) seeing the answers
print out fast.
Re: Nostalgia [message #363677 is a reply to message #363629] Fri, 16 February 2018 16:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hancock4 is currently offline  hancock4
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On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 9:45:13 AM UTC-5, Charles Richmond wrote:

> Sometimes people can get a lot more done... when they realize that they
> have to work harder with primitive tools and knowledge...

True.

Yes, computers could do a massive amount of calculations very
quickly. It really sped up accounting, payrolls, etc.

But on the flip side, the early computers had very little core
and peripheral memory. As a result, messages had to be very
austere*, often coded and abbreviated. Even a person's name
and address were abbreviated. This austerity made computers
hard to use, especially for lay people not used to the
coding requirements. For large companies, instead of referring
to a customer's hard copy paper file, they referred to a computer
generated report or terse online screen. The available information
was very limited.

Comedians and social critics of the 1960s and 1970s often
made mention of the austere all-caps printouts consumers
received, such as a computer generated letter or a punch
card. The 'DO NOT SPINDLE FOLD OR MULTILATE' warning on
punch cards was frequently criticized as impersonal.

In the 1980s, computers had more memory (both core and disk).
However, that memory was used for more applications, not more
sophistication or user-friendly-ness.




* Previously posted was a link to a computerized reservation
system. One letter codes, and two letter responses, fixed
position. Very, very terse. I'll post the link again if
there is interest.
Re: Nostalgia [message #363683 is a reply to message #363649] Fri, 16 February 2018 18:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 2018-02-16, Gareth's Downstairs Computer
<headstone255.but.not.these.five.words@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On 16/02/2018 16:36, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> On 2018-02-16, Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2018-02-15, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> [22 lines snipped]
>>>
>>>> The nostalgia is for the sights, sounds, and smells those days. I can still
>>>> recall leaning over the 1132 printer waiting for my printout to start.
>>>> We're also nostalgic for out first acquaintance with the wonders of
>>>> computers. Now every kid over 8 knows more than we did 50 years ago.
>>>
>>> I consider that unlikely.
>>
>> Agreed. I can't accept that the creators of the Internet don't know
>> as much as the script kiddie who abuses it.
>>
>> Too many doting parents think their kid is a computer genius
>> simply because he knows how to click a mouse.
>
> I once contrated in a company where the meme that kids were
> ace on computers was held. The son of one of the directors had
> produced their first computerised product, all in machine code,
> and all typed in manually into a "Softy" PROM programmer.

Well, don't keep us in suspense. Did it work? Did it work well?

--
/~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!
Re: Nostalgia [message #363684 is a reply to message #363677] Fri, 16 February 2018 18:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 2018-02-16, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:

> On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 9:45:13 AM UTC-5, Charles Richmond wrote:
>
>> Sometimes people can get a lot more done... when they realize that they
>> have to work harder with primitive tools and knowledge...
>
> True.
>
> Yes, computers could do a massive amount of calculations very
> quickly. It really sped up accounting, payrolls, etc.
>
> But on the flip side, the early computers had very little core
> and peripheral memory. As a result, messages had to be very
> austere*, often coded and abbreviated. Even a person's name
> and address were abbreviated. This austerity made computers
> hard to use, especially for lay people not used to the
> coding requirements. For large companies, instead of referring
> to a customer's hard copy paper file, they referred to a computer
> generated report or terse online screen. The available information
> was very limited.
>
> Comedians and social critics of the 1960s and 1970s often
> made mention of the austere all-caps printouts consumers
> received, such as a computer generated letter or a punch
> card. The 'DO NOT SPINDLE FOLD OR MULTILATE' warning on
> punch cards was frequently criticized as impersonal.
>
> In the 1980s, computers had more memory (both core and disk).
> However, that memory was used for more applications, not more
> sophistication or user-friendly-ness.

Besides, by then the meme had taken hold that if it wasn't terse,
in all caps, and had numbers with lots of leading zeros, it wasn't
"computerish" and therefore was unsophisticated. Traces of that
meme survive to this day.

> * Previously posted was a link to a computerized reservation
> system. One letter codes, and two letter responses, fixed
> position. Very, very terse. I'll post the link again if
> there is interest.

One thing that J. Random Luser forgets is that for experienced
users doing the same thing _many_ times, very, very terse is
also very, very fast.

--
/~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!
Re: Nostalgia [message #363696 is a reply to message #363672] Fri, 16 February 2018 20:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Mike Causer

On Fri, 16 Feb 2018 21:10:52 +0000
Gareth's Downstairs Computer
<headstone255.but.not.these.five.words@yahoo.com> wrote:

>> Somewhat awkward to use when trying to design (e.g.) a power
>> station's steelwork & piping. Still, that's how we started using
>> CAD.
>
> GD & CD Barnwood?

CADCentre Cambridge. Portishead rings a bell from my British Steel days
on the drawing board though. Don't recollect involvement but Pembroke
was my major [how shall we put it] on the drawing board pre-CAD. I hope
it stood up ....

..... but I was off to a different industry before anyone cut steel
rather than putting ink on mylar.


Mike
Re: Nostalgia [message #363711 is a reply to message #363683] Sat, 17 February 2018 07:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Gareth's Downstairs Computer

On 16/02/2018 23:04, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2018-02-16, Gareth's Downstairs Computer
> <headstone255.but.not.these.five.words@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> On 16/02/2018 16:36, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>
>>> On 2018-02-16, Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2018-02-15, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> [22 lines snipped]
>>>>
>>>> > The nostalgia is for the sights, sounds, and smells those days. I can still
>>>> > recall leaning over the 1132 printer waiting for my printout to start.
>>>> > We're also nostalgic for out first acquaintance with the wonders of
>>>> > computers. Now every kid over 8 knows more than we did 50 years ago.
>>>>
>>>> I consider that unlikely.
>>>
>>> Agreed. I can't accept that the creators of the Internet don't know
>>> as much as the script kiddie who abuses it.
>>>
>>> Too many doting parents think their kid is a computer genius
>>> simply because he knows how to click a mouse.
>>
>> I once contrated in a company where the meme that kids were
>> ace on computers was held. The son of one of the directors had
>> produced their first computerised product, all in machine code,
>> and all typed in manually into a "Softy" PROM programmer.
>
> Well, don't keep us in suspense. Did it work? Did it work well?
>

Yes, it did work and sold well. Upgrading though was such a pain that
they recoded in assembler *WITHOUT ANY COMMENTS* because, based on their
experience with hexadecimal machine code, assembler was "self documenting"!

I was contracted to work on a range of PID controllers for fermentation
vessels (Temperature, pH, Dissolved Oxygen, etc) and when I said that
they should let it be done in C because of all the maths involved they
declined, so I spent much time developing 32 bit arithmetic in 8 bit
assembler, which took longer to do (and was thus more expensive) than
had C been permitted.

The division routine was faultless, but took several days to debug
because I was doing easy to follow divisions such as 300,000,000 (hex)
divided by 3 and using an early hex-capable pocket calculator with
only 7 segment displays, was misreading the B in a hex answer as a 6.

Live and learn!
Re: Nostalgia [message #363712 is a reply to message #363696] Sat, 17 February 2018 07:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Gareth's Downstairs Computer

On 17/02/2018 01:49, Mike Causer wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Feb 2018 21:10:52 +0000
> Gareth's Downstairs Computer
> <headstone255.but.not.these.five.words@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>> Somewhat awkward to use when trying to design (e.g.) a power
>>> station's steelwork & piping. Still, that's how we started using
>>> CAD.
>>
>> GD & CD Barnwood?
>
> CADCentre Cambridge. Portishead rings a bell from my British Steel days
> on the drawing board though. Don't recollect involvement but Pembroke
> was my major [how shall we put it] on the drawing board pre-CAD. I hope
> it stood up ....
>
> .... but I was off to a different industry before anyone cut steel
> rather than putting ink on mylar.

The head of my department, Control Techology, Peter J Brown had
started his career at British Steel. I think he was 31 years olf
in 1971.
Re: Nostalgia [message #363725 is a reply to message #363676] Sat, 17 February 2018 09:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jmfbahciv is currently offline  jmfbahciv
Messages: 6173
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> On Thursday, February 15, 2018 at 4:14:16 PM UTC-5, Peter Flass wrote:
>
>> The nostalgia is for the sights, sounds, and smells those days. I can still
>> recall leaning over the 1132 printer waiting for my printout to start.
>> We're also nostalgic for out first acquaintance with the wonders of
>> computers. Now every kid over 8 knows more than we did 50 years ago. If I
>> still wanted to play with an 1130 I could use an emulator, but it wouldn't
>> be fun anymore. I'd have to be crazy to want to get involved with ancient
>> hardware.
>
> Did you ever get your printout?<g> The 1132 was so S L O W !
>
> I think our nostalgia is not as much for the "sights and sounds",
> but rather "first acquaintance with the wonders of computers".
>
> I well remember writing my first BASIC program that did a bunch
> of calculations. In those days we didn't have calculators, and it
> was amazing to see (a) writing a very simple statement with a
> few LET statements do all the work and (b) seeing the answers
> print out fast.
>
I still use sounds to determine if I'm going to get a "good"
dial-up connection. I used to use lights to determine if something
was trying to fool around with my computer (modem lights).

/BAH
Re: Nostalgia [message #363735 is a reply to message #363676] Sat, 17 February 2018 09:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
<hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, February 15, 2018 at 4:14:16 PM UTC-5, Peter Flass wrote:
>
>> The nostalgia is for the sights, sounds, and smells those days. I can still
>> recall leaning over the 1132 printer waiting for my printout to start.
>> We're also nostalgic for out first acquaintance with the wonders of
>> computers. Now every kid over 8 knows more than we did 50 years ago. If I
>> still wanted to play with an 1130 I could use an emulator, but it wouldn't
>> be fun anymore. I'd have to be crazy to want to get involved with ancient
>> hardware.
>
> Did you ever get your printout?<g> The 1132 was so S L O W !

300lpm, not that slow. We gave it a workout, since we were doing program
development.

>
> I think our nostalgia is not as much for the "sights and sounds",
> but rather "first acquaintance with the wonders of computers".
>
> I well remember writing my first BASIC program that did a bunch
> of calculations. In those days we didn't have calculators, and it
> was amazing to see (a) writing a very simple statement with a
> few LET statements do all the work and (b) seeing the answers
> print out fast.
>
>



--
Pete
Re: Nostalgia [message #363736 is a reply to message #363677] Sat, 17 February 2018 09:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
<hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
> On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 9:45:13 AM UTC-5, Charles Richmond wrote:
>
>> Sometimes people can get a lot more done... when they realize that they
>> have to work harder with primitive tools and knowledge...
>
> True.
>
> Yes, computers could do a massive amount of calculations very
> quickly. It really sped up accounting, payrolls, etc.
>
> But on the flip side, the early computers had very little core
> and peripheral memory. As a result, messages had to be very
> austere*, often coded and abbreviated. Even a person's name
> and address were abbreviated. This austerity made computers
> hard to use, especially for lay people not used to the
> coding requirements. For large companies, instead of referring
> to a customer's hard copy paper file, they referred to a computer
> generated report or terse online screen. The available information
> was very limited.
>
> Comedians and social critics of the 1960s and 1970s often
> made mention of the austere all-caps printouts consumers
> received, such as a computer generated letter or a punch
> card. The 'DO NOT SPINDLE FOLD OR MULTILATE' warning on
> punch cards was frequently criticized as impersonal.
>
> In the 1980s, computers had more memory (both core and disk).
> However, that memory was used for more applications, not more
> sophistication or user-friendly-ness.
>
>
>
>
> * Previously posted was a link to a computerized reservation
> system. One letter codes, and two letter responses, fixed
> position. Very, very terse. I'll post the link again if
> there is interest.
>

I've got an early book by James Martin on "man-computer-interfaces" (I
guess no women need apply) that covers such things as of the early 70s.
Martin has a chapter covering Sabre.

--
Pete
Re: Nostalgia [message #363737 is a reply to message #363711] Sat, 17 February 2018 09:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Gareth's Downstairs Computer
<headstone255.but.not.these.five.words@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 16/02/2018 23:04, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>> On 2018-02-16, Gareth's Downstairs Computer
>> <headstone255.but.not.these.five.words@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 16/02/2018 16:36, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2018-02-16, Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > On 2018-02-15, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > [22 lines snipped]
>>>> >
>>>> >> The nostalgia is for the sights, sounds, and smells those days. I can still
>>>> >> recall leaning over the 1132 printer waiting for my printout to start.
>>>> >> We're also nostalgic for out first acquaintance with the wonders of
>>>> >> computers. Now every kid over 8 knows more than we did 50 years ago.
>>>> >
>>>> > I consider that unlikely.
>>>>
>>>> Agreed. I can't accept that the creators of the Internet don't know
>>>> as much as the script kiddie who abuses it.
>>>>
>>>> Too many doting parents think their kid is a computer genius
>>>> simply because he knows how to click a mouse.
>>>
>>> I once contrated in a company where the meme that kids were
>>> ace on computers was held. The son of one of the directors had
>>> produced their first computerised product, all in machine code,
>>> and all typed in manually into a "Softy" PROM programmer.
>>
>> Well, don't keep us in suspense. Did it work? Did it work well?
>>
>
> Yes, it did work and sold well. Upgrading though was such a pain that
> they recoded in assembler *WITHOUT ANY COMMENTS* because, based on their
> experience with hexadecimal machine code, assembler was "self documenting"!

I think most of us started out writing impenetrable, commentless code. When
you're doing a student project it's A) small, B) completed quickly enough
that you usually don't forget how it's working C) keypunched/typed by you
D) run once and thrown away. In my experience that's the biggest step from
student programming assignments to production work-the code may be complex
and had to be understood by lots of people, perhaps years later.

>
> I was contracted to work on a range of PID controllers for fermentation
> vessels (Temperature, pH, Dissolved Oxygen, etc) and when I said that
> they should let it be done in C because of all the maths involved they
> declined, so I spent much time developing 32 bit arithmetic in 8 bit
> assembler, which took longer to do (and was thus more expensive) than
> had C been permitted.

So use assembler, but call routines from the C library ;-)

>
> The division routine was faultless, but took several days to debug
> because I was doing easy to follow divisions such as 300,000,000 (hex)
> divided by 3 and using an early hex-capable pocket calculator with
> only 7 segment displays, was misreading the B in a hex answer as a 6.
>
> Live and learn!

Amen! Still learning.




--
Pete
Re: Nostalgia [message #363744 is a reply to message #363737] Sat, 17 February 2018 10:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Gareth's Downstairs Computer

On 17/02/2018 14:59, Peter Flass wrote:
> Gareth's Downstairs Computer
> <headstone255.but.not.these.five.words@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On 16/02/2018 23:04, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>> On 2018-02-16, Gareth's Downstairs Computer
>>> <headstone255.but.not.these.five.words@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 16/02/2018 16:36, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > On 2018-02-16, Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> On 2018-02-15, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> [22 lines snipped]
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> The nostalgia is for the sights, sounds, and smells those days. I can still
>>>> >>> recall leaning over the 1132 printer waiting for my printout to start.
>>>> >>> We're also nostalgic for out first acquaintance with the wonders of
>>>> >>> computers. Now every kid over 8 knows more than we did 50 years ago.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I consider that unlikely.
>>>> >
>>>> > Agreed. I can't accept that the creators of the Internet don't know
>>>> > as much as the script kiddie who abuses it.
>>>> >
>>>> > Too many doting parents think their kid is a computer genius
>>>> > simply because he knows how to click a mouse.
>>>>
>>>> I once contrated in a company where the meme that kids were
>>>> ace on computers was held. The son of one of the directors had
>>>> produced their first computerised product, all in machine code,
>>>> and all typed in manually into a "Softy" PROM programmer.
>>>
>>> Well, don't keep us in suspense. Did it work? Did it work well?
>>>
>>
>> Yes, it did work and sold well. Upgrading though was such a pain that
>> they recoded in assembler *WITHOUT ANY COMMENTS* because, based on their
>> experience with hexadecimal machine code, assembler was "self documenting"!
>
> I think most of us started out writing impenetrable, commentless code. When
> you're doing a student project it's A) small, B) completed quickly enough
> that you usually don't forget how it's working C) keypunched/typed by you
> D) run once and thrown away. In my experience that's the biggest step from
> student programming assignments to production work-the code may be complex
> and had to be understood by lots of people, perhaps years later.
>
>>
>> I was contracted to work on a range of PID controllers for fermentation
>> vessels (Temperature, pH, Dissolved Oxygen, etc) and when I said that
>> they should let it be done in C because of all the maths involved they
>> declined, so I spent much time developing 32 bit arithmetic in 8 bit
>> assembler, which took longer to do (and was thus more expensive) than
>> had C been permitted.
>
> So use assembler, but call routines from the C library ;-)
>

A refusal to buy the C compiler resulted in the lack of the C library.

It was ISTR a Hitachi 6303
Re: Nostalgia [message #363748 is a reply to message #363736] Sat, 17 February 2018 11:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Quadibloc is currently offline  Quadibloc
Messages: 4399
Registered: June 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Saturday, February 17, 2018 at 7:59:52 AM UTC-7, Peter Flass wrote:

> I've got an early book by James Martin on "man-computer-interfaces" (I
> guess no women need apply) that covers such things as of the early 70s.
> Martin has a chapter covering Sabre.

"Human Being-Computer Interface", "Person-Computer Interface", or "Man/Woman-
Computer Interface" would all have been longer; that it was understood to
include everyone, not just males, though, was entirely usual at the time.

John Savard
Re: Nostalgia [message #363765 is a reply to message #363744] Sat, 17 February 2018 12:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Gareth's Downstairs Computer
<headstone255.but.not.these.five.words@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 17/02/2018 14:59, Peter Flass wrote:
>> Gareth's Downstairs Computer
>> <headstone255.but.not.these.five.words@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> On 16/02/2018 23:04, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>>> On 2018-02-16, Gareth's Downstairs Computer
>>>> <headstone255.but.not.these.five.words@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > On 16/02/2018 16:36, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> On 2018-02-16, Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> On 2018-02-15, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> [22 lines snipped]
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> The nostalgia is for the sights, sounds, and smells those days. I can still
>>>> >>>> recall leaning over the 1132 printer waiting for my printout to start.
>>>> >>>> We're also nostalgic for out first acquaintance with the wonders of
>>>> >>>> computers. Now every kid over 8 knows more than we did 50 years ago.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> I consider that unlikely.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Agreed. I can't accept that the creators of the Internet don't know
>>>> >> as much as the script kiddie who abuses it.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Too many doting parents think their kid is a computer genius
>>>> >> simply because he knows how to click a mouse.
>>>> >
>>>> > I once contrated in a company where the meme that kids were
>>>> > ace on computers was held. The son of one of the directors had
>>>> > produced their first computerised product, all in machine code,
>>>> > and all typed in manually into a "Softy" PROM programmer.
>>>>
>>>> Well, don't keep us in suspense. Did it work? Did it work well?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, it did work and sold well. Upgrading though was such a pain that
>>> they recoded in assembler *WITHOUT ANY COMMENTS* because, based on their
>>> experience with hexadecimal machine code, assembler was "self documenting"!
>>
>> I think most of us started out writing impenetrable, commentless code. When
>> you're doing a student project it's A) small, B) completed quickly enough
>> that you usually don't forget how it's working C) keypunched/typed by you
>> D) run once and thrown away. In my experience that's the biggest step from
>> student programming assignments to production work-the code may be complex
>> and had to be understood by lots of people, perhaps years later.
>>
>>>
>>> I was contracted to work on a range of PID controllers for fermentation
>>> vessels (Temperature, pH, Dissolved Oxygen, etc) and when I said that
>>> they should let it be done in C because of all the maths involved they
>>> declined, so I spent much time developing 32 bit arithmetic in 8 bit
>>> assembler, which took longer to do (and was thus more expensive) than
>>> had C been permitted.
>>
>> So use assembler, but call routines from the C library ;-)
>>
>
> A refusal to buy the C compiler resulted in the lack of the C library.
>
> It was ISTR a Hitachi 6303
>
>

Probably long before gcc, and/or you weren't allowed to install it.

--
Pete
Re: Nostalgia [message #363776 is a reply to message #363549] Sat, 17 February 2018 13:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jorgen Grahn is currently offline  Jorgen Grahn
Messages: 606
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Thu, 2018-02-15, Quadibloc wrote:
....
> And when computers communicated to the user by typing back... not
> with a graphical interface, computer programs were simpler to write.

There's still a fraction of the Unix community using those kinds of
interfaces -- it's not all in the past.

And I /do/ think one of the major benefits is that it's more inviting
to new programmers.

/Jorgen

--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
Re: Nostalgia [message #363786 is a reply to message #363737] Sat, 17 February 2018 15:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 2018-02-17, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I think most of us started out writing impenetrable, commentless code. When
> you're doing a student project it's A) small, B) completed quickly enough
> that you usually don't forget how it's working C) keypunched/typed by you
> D) run once and thrown away. In my experience that's the biggest step from
> student programming assignments to production work-the code may be complex
> and had to be understood by lots of people, perhaps years later.

And one of them might be you.

--
/~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!
Re: Nostalgia [message #363787 is a reply to message #363748] Sat, 17 February 2018 15:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 2018-02-17, Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

> On Saturday, February 17, 2018 at 7:59:52 AM UTC-7, Peter Flass wrote:
>
>> I've got an early book by James Martin on "man-computer-interfaces" (I
>> guess no women need apply) that covers such things as of the early 70s.
>> Martin has a chapter covering Sabre.
>
> "Human Being-Computer Interface", "Person-Computer Interface", or "Man/Woman-
> Computer Interface" would all have been longer; that it was understood to
> include everyone, not just males, though, was entirely usual at the time.

HCI - Human-Computer Interface

On the other hand, an IBMism from the Good Old Days is
HDI - Head-Disk Interference
(known colloquially as a head crash)

--
/~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!
Re: Nostalgia [message #363792 is a reply to message #363735] Sat, 17 February 2018 16:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hancock4 is currently offline  hancock4
Messages: 6746
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Saturday, February 17, 2018 at 9:59:52 AM UTC-5, Peter Flass wrote:
> <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>> On Thursday, February 15, 2018 at 4:14:16 PM UTC-5, Peter Flass wrote:
>>
>>> The nostalgia is for the sights, sounds, and smells those days. I can still
>>> recall leaning over the 1132 printer waiting for my printout to start.
>>> We're also nostalgic for out first acquaintance with the wonders of
>>> computers. Now every kid over 8 knows more than we did 50 years ago. If I
>>> still wanted to play with an 1130 I could use an emulator, but it wouldn't
>>> be fun anymore. I'd have to be crazy to want to get involved with ancient
>>> hardware.
>>
>> Did you ever get your printout?<g> The 1132 was so S L O W !
>
> 300lpm, not that slow. We gave it a workout, since we were doing program
> development.

I thought the 1132 printer, which was a converted 407, ran at
only 80 lines per minute.
Re: Nostalgia [message #363797 is a reply to message #363776] Sat, 17 February 2018 16:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Bob Eager

On Sat, 17 Feb 2018 18:54:16 +0000, Jorgen Grahn wrote:

> On Thu, 2018-02-15, Quadibloc wrote:
> ...
>> And when computers communicated to the user by typing back... not with
>> a graphical interface, computer programs were simpler to write.
>
> There's still a fraction of the Unix community using those kinds of
> interfaces -- it's not all in the past.
>
> And I /do/ think one of the major benefits is that it's more inviting to
> new programmers.

I spent some weeks teaching that interface just before Christmas, as I
have done most years.

--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
Re: Nostalgia [message #363798 is a reply to message #363786] Sat, 17 February 2018 16:28 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Bob Eager

On Sat, 17 Feb 2018 20:24:34 +0000, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> On 2018-02-17, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> I think most of us started out writing impenetrable, commentless code.
>> When you're doing a student project it's A) small, B) completed quickly
>> enough that you usually don't forget how it's working C)
>> keypunched/typed by you D) run once and thrown away. In my experience
>> that's the biggest step from student programming assignments to
>> production work-the code may be complex and had to be understood by
>> lots of people, perhaps years later.
>
> And one of them might be you.

Exactly. Might be worth recounting this story (possibly a repeat, but...)

About 15 years ago I had a need for a particular program on a PC. It was
a one-off, and it had to be in BASIC, as the machine wasn't connected to
anything else - all I could do was move small files using INTERLNK/
INTERSVR (remember those?)

I searched the Internet and found an ideal program. I downloaded it,
transferred it to the PC and it did exactly what I wanted.

Being me, I had a look at the source code. The more I looked at it, the
more mystified I became by the style of programming. It was how I might
have written it.

Then it hit me. I *had* written it, a further 15 years before. I had sent
it to various people but not bothered keeping a copy. It had come back to
me!



--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
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