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Re: Olympics opening ceremony [message #363519 is a reply to message #363490] Thu, 15 February 2018 09:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jmfbahciv is currently offline  jmfbahciv
Messages: 6173
Registered: March 2012
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Senior Member
Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote:
> Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> writes:
>> Combat between First World nations is a bad idea anyways. But foot
>> soldiers can get killed in Third World ones.
>>
>> Solving a problem like Russia is more difficult. Out-waiting and out-
>> lasting worked with Communism, and while that was quite a surprise, for
>> Russia's current regime to outlive Putin by much seems unlikely.
>
> Milton Miles book ("Another Kind of War") first half was about going
> into china to setup coastal watchers but then spent much of the rest
> training 50,000 guerrillas fighting the Japanese. He then spends the
> last half of the book about how OSS and Army gave china to the
> communists. They came in and wanted to take over the whole
> operation. The US Navy and Nationalists rebuffed them, so to get
> something they could take credit for, they support the communists.
>
> Without giving China to the communists, there wouldn't be korean war,
> domino theory, vietnam war, current nuclear in korea, pakistan and iran,
> etc
>
> Tuchman's book (Stilwell biography) has Miles book in the bibliography
> but in the body has nothing from his book. She sort of respins Army
> giving china to the communists ... that Marshall believed that he needed
> Soviets to beat Japan (after the end of war in Germany) ... and so to
> appeal to the Soviets, US was giving support to the Chinese
> communists. In Manchuria there was 1.5M soviets fighting 1M Japanese. By
> comparison okinawa, US had 600k fighting 76k japanese.

She does cover what happened to all the supplies which were flown
over the Himalayas to help the China fight Japan. It ended up in
warehouses instead of being disbursed to the Chinese Army. This
wasn't discovered until after the war. China lost a lot of favor
for doing that.

>
> However, Miles has Army supporting communists long before the end of
> european war and any encouragement for the Soviets to come into the
> Japanese war.
>
> Milton also references that there were some number of Chinese Army units
> that cooperated with the Japanese ... and towards the end they tried to
> come over to the nationalist but the US Army vetoed it, so they went
> over to the communists. It was these army units that fought the US in
> the Korean war.
>
> Marshall was then SECSTATE (47-49)
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Marshall
> and they turned out a paper trying to absolve State for giving China to
> the communists
> https://archive.org/details/VanSlykeLymanTheChinaWhitePaper1 949
>
> and recent reference to "Is Harvard responsible for the rise of Putin"
> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018.html#14 Predicting the future in five years
as seen from 1983
>
> perpetual war posts
> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#perpetual.war
> military-industrial(-congressional) complex
> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#military.industrial .complex

/BAH
Re: Olympics opening ceremony [message #363535 is a reply to message #363519] Thu, 15 February 2018 14:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anne &amp; Lynn Wheel is currently offline  Anne &amp; Lynn Wheel
Messages: 3156
Registered: January 2012
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Senior Member
jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> writes:
> She does cover what happened to all the supplies which were flown
> over the Himalayas to help the China fight Japan. It ended up in
> warehouses instead of being disbursed to the Chinese Army. This
> wasn't discovered until after the war. China lost a lot of favor
> for doing that.

just finished Eisenhower's Cursade In Europe ... large US Army group in
Paris was selling huge amount of military supplies in train carload lots
on the black market ... so such stuff not limited to chinese
nationalists. However, Miles was carrying on winning against Japanese
with what he was getting ... so it couldn't have been everything.

other account of Stilwell in China ... Stilwell's Command Problems,
Chapter III, The India-Based Air Effort
https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/USA-CBI-Command/USA-CBI -Command-3.html

Chinese troops were far easier to supply by air than were U.S. or
British soldiers. The individual Chinese required but three pounds of
rations a day as against the American's five pounds. He did not ask the
variety in his diet that the American demanded. The Chinese was not only
extremely careful of his possessions, in contrast to the habitually
wasteful American soldier, but Chinese units had a way of acquiring
more, and more, and still more equipment, while American units could be
trailed by what they discarded. Consequently,"once Chinese Units were
fully equipped little was ever heard from them except requests for
ammunition, rations, medical supplies and certain short-lived items of
equipment."

But the Chinese had their failings. Every Chinese unit of any size had
its liaison unit of an American officer or two and some enlisted
men. These received their own rations, mail, and supplies by airdrop
through the Chinese division G-4. Somewhere between the Chinese staff
officer and the liaison team, American mail, packages, and supplies
tended to vanish. In the classic Chinese fashion, rations and ammunition
were overordered on the grand scale. Thus in December 1943, the Chinese
38th Division's requisitions were 280 percent in excess of its strength.

Naturally, there were times when even the extraordinary carrying powers
of the Chinese could not cope with this manna raining down. Supply dumps
and less formal caches were left behind, and there was great barter with
the Burmese. When the Yunnan border was approached, pack trains began to
carry American lend-lease to the Yunnan bazaars, as in the days when the
Burma Road was hailed as "China's life line."

.... snip ...

but Tuchman (also) doesn't mention Harry Dexter White ... working on
behalf of Stalin ... Stalin wanted to drag Japan into war with
US ... sent draft of demands that White was to include
in US ultimatum to Japan.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hull_note#Interpretations
and Japan makes decision to attack Pearl after the ultimatum

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Dexter_White#Venona_proj ect
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venona_project

also acting as agent for Stalin, in 1943 congress appropriates $200M for
Nationalist, that White manages to divert.

Benn Stein in "The Battle of Bretton Woods" spends pages 55-58
discussing "Operation Snow".
https://www.amazon.com/Battle-Bretton-Woods-Relations-Univer sity-ebook/dp/B00B5ZQ72Y/

pg56/loc1065-66:

The Soviets had, according to Karpov, used White to provoke Japan to
attack the United States. The scheme even had a name: "Operation
Snow," snow referring to White.

.... snip ...
Re: Olympics opening ceremony [message #363536 is a reply to message #363519] Thu, 15 February 2018 14:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mausg is currently offline  mausg
Messages: 2483
Registered: May 2013
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 2018-02-15, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
> Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote:
>> Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> writes:
>>> Combat between First World nations is a bad idea anyways. But foot
>> and they turned out a paper trying to absolve State for giving China to
>> the communists
>> https://archive.org/details/VanSlykeLymanTheChinaWhitePaper1 949
>>
>> and recent reference to "Is Harvard responsible for the rise of Putin"
>> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018.html#14 Predicting the future in five years
> as seen from 1983
>>
>> perpetual war posts
>> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#perpetual.war
>> military-industrial(-congressional) complex
>> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#military.industrial .complex
>
> /BAHa

'No cite but from memory, 'Vinegar'Joe Stillwell , an US general that
was put in charge of one chinese (Nationalist) Army, so despised
Chang- Ki Check (sp?) that after a while he would not even talk to
him. Chang's wife was a member of a powerfull, very corrupt, Chinese
family with high ties to the US government, The Chinese resistance to
Japan tied up large numbers of the Japanese Army for most of the
war,in spite that resistance being split between the factions.

The numbers cited for the Russian invasion of Manchuria seemed
skewed, I had books on all that years ago,now they are just
'somewhere' in the pile, and I cannot be bothered.

Anyway, anyone who is interested in recent Chinese history
should read up on the 'Opium Wars', during which China was forced to
allow importation of opium from British India.

( The descendents of Stillwell's army are reported to have an sorta
enclave still in an inaccessable part of the Yunnan-Burma area, which
produces opium, and includes gambling facilities,)

One reason why there is unlikely to be a Chinese-US war is that the
Chinese now own so much of the US and the UK, that they would be
damaging themselves.

There was a sort of plan, like the way that Europe was divided into
Soviet and Western spheres of influence, for Japan to be divided that
way as well, with the Northern Island, Hokkaido, to be occupied by
the USSR. There is still a lot of aggro about a couple of islands
that the Soviets occupied, and never left.


--
greymaus.ireland.ie
Just_Another_Grumpy_Old_Man
Re: Olympics opening ceremony [message #363579 is a reply to message #363536] Thu, 15 February 2018 21:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On 15 Feb 2018 19:38:26 GMT, mausg@mail.com wrote:

> On 2018-02-15, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>> Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote:
>>> Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> writes:
>>>> Combat between First World nations is a bad idea anyways. But foot
>>> and they turned out a paper trying to absolve State for giving China to
>>> the communists
>>> https://archive.org/details/VanSlykeLymanTheChinaWhitePaper1 949
>>>
>>> and recent reference to "Is Harvard responsible for the rise of Putin"
>>> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018.html#14 Predicting the future in five years
>> as seen from 1983
>>>
>>> perpetual war posts
>>> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#perpetual.war
>>> military-industrial(-congressional) complex
>>> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#military.industrial .complex
>>
>> /BAHa
>
> 'No cite but from memory, 'Vinegar'Joe Stillwell , an US general that
> was put in charge of one chinese (Nationalist) Army, so despised
> Chang- Ki Check (sp?) that after a while he would not even talk to
> him. Chang's wife was a member of a powerfull, very corrupt, Chinese
> family with high ties to the US government, The Chinese resistance to
> Japan tied up large numbers of the Japanese Army for most of the
> war,in spite that resistance being split between the factions.
>
> The numbers cited for the Russian invasion of Manchuria seemed
> skewed, I had books on all that years ago,now they are just
> 'somewhere' in the pile, and I cannot be bothered.
>
> Anyway, anyone who is interested in recent Chinese history
> should read up on the 'Opium Wars', during which China was forced to
> allow importation of opium from British India.
>
> ( The descendents of Stillwell's army are reported to have an sorta
> enclave still in an inaccessable part of the Yunnan-Burma area, which
> produces opium, and includes gambling facilities,)
>
> One reason why there is unlikely to be a Chinese-US war is that the
> Chinese now own so much of the US and the UK, that they would be
> damaging themselves.

How much of the US do you believe the Chinese own?

> There was a sort of plan, like the way that Europe was divided into
> Soviet and Western spheres of influence, for Japan to be divided that
> way as well, with the Northern Island, Hokkaido, to be occupied by
> the USSR. There is still a lot of aggro about a couple of islands
> that the Soviets occupied, and never left.
Re: Olympics opening ceremony [message #363580 is a reply to message #363536] Thu, 15 February 2018 21:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anne &amp; Lynn Wheel is currently offline  Anne &amp; Lynn Wheel
Messages: 3156
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
mausg@mail.com writes:
> The numbers cited for the Russian invasion of Manchuria seemed
> skewed, I had books on all that years ago,now they are just
> 'somewhere' in the pile, and I cannot be bothered.

soviet-japanese
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet%E2%80%93Japanese_War
soviets 1,577,225, japan 983,000

okinawa
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Okinawa
US 541,000, japanese 76,000
Re: Olympics opening ceremony [message #363582 is a reply to message #363536] Thu, 15 February 2018 22:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anne &amp; Lynn Wheel is currently offline  Anne &amp; Lynn Wheel
Messages: 3156
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
mausg@mail.com writes:
> 'No cite but from memory, 'Vinegar'Joe Stillwell , an US general that
> was put in charge of one chinese (Nationalist) Army, so despised
> Chang- Ki Check (sp?) that after a while he would not even talk to
> him. Chang's wife was a member of a powerfull, very corrupt, Chinese
> family with high ties to the US government, The Chinese resistance to
> Japan tied up large numbers of the Japanese Army for most of the
> war,in spite that resistance being split between the factions.

my wife's father was command of engineering combat group and towards
end, frequently ranking officer getting some number of officer daggers
in surrenders ... including concentration camp. After end of
hostilities, he refused further command in Germany, even when offered
promotion to general (retired in early 60s w/o the promotion). Possibly
as punishment, in 1946 he was sent to China as military advisor to
Chiang Kia-shek ... and brought his family over in 1947 to live in
Nanking.

Soong sisters, my wife's mother talked about going to state dinners,
my wife was too young to go.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soong_sisters

Their marriages and alleged motivations have been summarized in the
Maoist saying "One loved money, one loved power, one loved her country"

.... snip ...
Re: Olympics opening ceremony [message #363596 is a reply to message #363579] Fri, 16 February 2018 03:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mausg is currently offline  mausg
Messages: 2483
Registered: May 2013
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Senior Member
On 2018-02-16, J Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 15 Feb 2018 19:38:26 GMT, mausg@mail.com wrote:
>
>> On 2018-02-15, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>> Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote:
>
> How much of the US do you believe the Chinese own?

Almost impossible to know, t'is rumored that a lot is armslengted
through places like Malta, the channel islands, Cyprus, etc.
The name Hutchinson, once an English company, keeps coming up.

>
>> There was a sort of plan, like the way that Europe was divided into
>> Soviet and Western spheres of influence, for Japan to be divided that
>> way as well, with the Northern Island, Hokkaido, to be occupied by
>> the USSR. There is still a lot of aggro about a couple of islands
>> that the Soviets occupied, and never left.


--
greymaus.ireland.ie
Just_Another_Grumpy_Old_Man
Re: Olympics opening ceremony [message #363605 is a reply to message #363596] Fri, 16 February 2018 07:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On 16 Feb 2018 08:45:01 GMT, mausg@mail.com wrote:

> On 2018-02-16, J Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 15 Feb 2018 19:38:26 GMT, mausg@mail.com wrote:
>>
>>> On 2018-02-15, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>>> Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote:
>>
>> How much of the US do you believe the Chinese own?
>
> Almost impossible to know, t'is rumored that a lot is armslengted
> through places like Malta, the channel islands, Cyprus, etc.
> The name Hutchinson, once an English company, keeps coming up.

Try putting an upper bound on it.
>
>>
>>> There was a sort of plan, like the way that Europe was divided into
>>> Soviet and Western spheres of influence, for Japan to be divided that
>>> way as well, with the Northern Island, Hokkaido, to be occupied by
>>> the USSR. There is still a lot of aggro about a couple of islands
>>> that the Soviets occupied, and never left.
Re: Olympics opening ceremony [message #363609 is a reply to message #363596] Fri, 16 February 2018 08:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Bob Eager

On Fri, 16 Feb 2018 08:45:01 +0000, mausg wrote:

> On 2018-02-16, J Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 15 Feb 2018 19:38:26 GMT, mausg@mail.com wrote:
>>
>>> On 2018-02-15, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>>> Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote:
>>
>> How much of the US do you believe the Chinese own?
>
> Almost impossible to know, t'is rumored that a lot is armslengted
> through places like Malta, the channel islands, Cyprus, etc.
> The name Hutchinson, once an English company, keeps coming up.

ITYM Hutchison.

--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
Re: Olympics opening ceremony [message #363620 is a reply to message #363596] Fri, 16 February 2018 08:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
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Senior Member
<mausg@mail.com> wrote:
> On 2018-02-16, J Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 15 Feb 2018 19:38:26 GMT, mausg@mail.com wrote:
>>
>>> On 2018-02-15, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>>> Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote:
>>
>> How much of the US do you believe the Chinese own?
>
> Almost impossible to know, t'is rumored that a lot is armslengted
> through places like Malta, the channel islands, Cyprus, etc.
> The name Hutchinson, once an English company, keeps coming up.

The latest rumor is that the Chinese are going to buy FiatChrysler to get
into the auto business in the US. What they do own is a lot of US
government debt. If they sold it off they could crater the economy; the
only reason they don't is that they'd lose bundles of cash and their
biggest market.

>
>>
>>> There was a sort of plan, like the way that Europe was divided into
>>> Soviet and Western spheres of influence, for Japan to be divided that
>>> way as well, with the Northern Island, Hokkaido, to be occupied by
>>> the USSR. There is still a lot of aggro about a couple of islands
>>> that the Soviets occupied, and never left.
>
>



--
Pete
Re: Olympics opening ceremony [message #363638 is a reply to message #363620] Fri, 16 February 2018 10:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mausg is currently offline  mausg
Messages: 2483
Registered: May 2013
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 2018-02-16, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> <mausg@mail.com> wrote:
>> On 2018-02-16, J Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 15 Feb 2018 19:38:26 GMT, mausg@mail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2018-02-15, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>>> > Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote:
>>>
>>> How much of the US do you believe the Chinese own?
>>
>> Almost impossible to know, t'is rumored that a lot is armslengted
>> through places like Malta, the channel islands, Cyprus, etc.
>> The name Hutchinson, once an English company, keeps coming up.
>
> The latest rumor is that the Chinese are going to buy FiatChrysler to get

Serves them right if they do. They bought lot of stuff from the failed
British car company Rover a few years go, that will slow them up a bit.

Fiat here is known as "FixItAgainTom."

> into the auto business in the US. What they do own is a lot of US
> government debt. If they sold it off they could crater the economy; the
> only reason they don't is that they'd lose bundles of cash and their
> biggest market.
>
>>
>>>
>>>> There was a sort of plan, like the way that Europe was divided into
>>>> Soviet and Western spheres of influence, for Japan to be divided that
>>>> way as well, with the Northern Island, Hokkaido, to be occupied by
>>>> the USSR. There is still a lot of aggro about a couple of islands
>>>> that the Soviets occupied, and never left.
>>
>>
>
>
>


--
greymaus.ireland.ie
Just_Another_Grumpy_Old_Man
Re: Olympics opening ceremony [message #363660 is a reply to message #363620] Fri, 16 February 2018 13:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anne &amp; Lynn Wheel is currently offline  Anne &amp; Lynn Wheel
Messages: 3156
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
A Chinese Casino Has Conquered a Piece of America
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-02-15/a-chinese -company-has-conquered-a-piece-of-america

Hu died building what’s become, on paper, the most successful gambling
operation in history. In the first half of 2017, table for table,
Imperial Pacific turned over nearly six times more cash than the
fanciest gaming facilities in Macau, which themselves dwarf the activity
in Las Vegas. And that was before Imperial Pacific opened its lavish
megacasino in July.

.... snip ...
Re: Olympics opening ceremony [message #363662 is a reply to message #363660] Fri, 16 February 2018 14:05 Go to previous message
Anne &amp; Lynn Wheel is currently offline  Anne &amp; Lynn Wheel
Messages: 3156
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Chinese investments in the United States
https://www.aei.org/feature/china-tracker/

hundred billion, about 10% of what is owned in treasuries

The 5 Biggest Chinese Investments In The U.S. In 2016
https://www.forbes.com/sites/ellensheng/2016/12/21/5-biggest -chinese-investments-in-us-2016/

It's been a milestone year for Chinese companies investing in the
U.S. According to Mergermarket, Chinese companies invested a total of
$51.09 billion into the U.S. via 65 deals in 2016. That's a 360% surge
from 2015 when Chinese companies invested $11.7 billion. In all, Chinese
investments made up 12% of all inbound mergers & acquisitions in the
U.S. this year, a big step up from previous years when Chinese
investments made up about 2% or so of foreign investments into the
country.

China Owns US Debt, but How Much?
https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/080615/china -owns-us-debt-how-much.asp

It seems like every American politician and talking head is concerned by
the huge amounts of debt that the U.S. government owes Chinese
lenders. The Chinese do own a lot of U.S. debt -- $1.189 trillion as of
October 2017.

.....

Why China Owns So Much US Debt

There are two main economic reasons why Chinese lenders bought up so
many U.S. Treasuries. The first and most important is that China wants
its own currency, the yuan, pegged to the dollar. This has been common
practice for many countries ever since the Bretton Woods Conference in
1944.

.... snip ...
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