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Re: Bitcoin confusion? [message #363341 is a reply to message #363327] Tue, 13 February 2018 07:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Tue, 13 Feb 2018 07:55:56 +0000, AndyW <Andy@nojunqmail.com> wrote:

> On 09/02/2018 15:13, Huge wrote:
>> On 2018-02-09, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
>>> Huge wrote:
>>>
>>>> none of you ever worked for a financial institution.
>>>
>>> You make that sound like a bad thing :-P
>>
>> It is if you're going to pontificate about financial matters.
>
> Indeed and that it how things should be for experts and also why every
> Obstetrician is female, every paediatrician is a child, every Olympic
> sprinting coach used to be a world champion sprinter, every ancient
> historian actually lived in ancient Rome and every vet is an animal.

In other words it's fine with you that the obstetrician, pediatrician,
Olympic coach, historian, and vet have no actual training or
experiences as long as they are of a politically correct ethnicity.

I thought I knew a lot about finance. I mean I was an engineer, how
hard can it be. Now I work for one of the worlds largest financial
institutions and I found out that it's a lot different from what I
expected.

However based on his attitude I doubt Huge has ever actually worked
anywhere for more than a month.
Re: free, huh, was Bitcoin confusion? [message #363343 is a reply to message #363274] Tue, 13 February 2018 09:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jmfbahciv is currently offline  jmfbahciv
Messages: 6173
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
John Levine wrote:
> In article <r2v18dtj601makeues3m3c2b8pbciha7g9@4ax.com>,
> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I'm getting the impression that you're not very familiar with the way that
>>> the US medical system works. When's the last time you price shopped for a
>>> doctor?
>>
>> I'm getting the impression that you're not very familiar with
>> economics. In any market that does not have price controls there will
>> be a range of prices, often for identical goods. That does not mean
>> that doubling the supply of goods will not reduce prices across the
>> board.
>
> You might want to read the classic 1963 paper by Kenneth Arrow
> "Uncertainty and the Welfare Economics of Medical Care."
>
> http://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/82/2/PHCBP.pdf
>
> I happen to agree that it would be good to have more doctors and
> nurses in the U.S., but I doubt that would make much difference to
> healthcare prices.
>
Not anymore. Doctors used to have their own business. Now they're
an employee. Nurses have to join the local union. That means
that union rules usurp care practices.

/BAH
Re: free, huh, was Bitcoin confusion? [message #363352 is a reply to message #363332] Tue, 13 February 2018 10:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Radey Shouman

mausg@mail.com writes:

> On 2018-02-13, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
>> In article
>> <978119845.540156254.721198.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org>,
>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> the US medical system works. When's the last time you price shopped for a
>>>> doctor?
>>>
>>> You're starting to get "doc in a box" operations in drug stores, etc. which
>>> are cheaper, quicker, and just as good for many conditions. If restrictions
>>> were loosened on what nurse-practioners, PAs, etc. can do they would be
>>> even more widespread. I think people _do_ shop for medical care by price,
>>> when such information is available.
>>
>> You're certainly right about that, they're an order of magnitude
>> cheaper for semi-emergency stuff than the ER.
>>
>> Unfortunately, for the really expensive stuff where you go straight
>> from the ambulance to the ER to the OR for emergency surgery, it's
>> pretty hard to imagine how one would do price shopping at the time you
>> need the service.
>>
>
> That "meanest woman alive", whatever her name was, toured ERs looking
> for a cheap one.
> (Helmsley?)

Hetty Green.

--
Re: Bitcoin confusion? [message #363353 is a reply to message #363341] Tue, 13 February 2018 10:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: AndyW

On 13/02/2018 12:09, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Feb 2018 07:55:56 +0000, AndyW <Andy@nojunqmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 09/02/2018 15:13, Huge wrote:
>>> On 2018-02-09, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
>>>> Huge wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > none of you ever worked for a financial institution.
>>>>
>>>> You make that sound like a bad thing :-P
>>>
>>> It is if you're going to pontificate about financial matters.
>>
>> Indeed and that it how things should be for experts and also why every
>> Obstetrician is female, every paediatrician is a child, every Olympic
>> sprinting coach used to be a world champion sprinter, every ancient
>> historian actually lived in ancient Rome and every vet is an animal.
>
> In other words it's fine with you that the obstetrician, pediatrician,
> Olympic coach, historian, and vet have no actual training or
> experiences as long as they are of a politically correct ethnicity.

Wow!
That is a wild interpretation, I genuinely cannot understand how you got
from sarcasm about the Appeal to Experience logical fallacy to ethnicity.

> I thought I knew a lot about finance. I mean I was an engineer, how
> hard can it be. Now I work for one of the worlds largest financial
> institutions and I found out that it's a lot different from what I
> expected.

IME market trading predictions is a lot of guesswork about when the herd
of cows is going to panic and which direction it is going to stampede next.

> However based on his attitude I doubt Huge has ever actually worked
> anywhere for more than a month.

He does seem a rather brusque chap but it keeps life interesting.

Andy
Re: Bitcoin confusion? [message #363354 is a reply to message #362558] Tue, 13 February 2018 10:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: AndyW

On 13/02/2018 10:09, Huge wrote:
> On 2018-02-13, AndyW <Andy@nojunqmail.com> wrote:
>> On 09/02/2018 10:21, Huge wrote:
>>> On 2018-02-09, AndyW <Andy@nojunqmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> [snippage]
>>>
>>>> The Royal bank of Scotland is
>>>> currently the only UK bank that continues to issue the £1.
>>>>
>>>> I am aware that there are now two partially open cans of worms regarding
>>>> the term UK and also regarding the definition of legal tender in the UK.
>>>> Give me a moment and I will get my tin hat and sandbags.
>>>
>>> Tee-hee.
>>>
>>> Scottish banknotes are, of course, not legal tender, so by the arguments
>>> being proposed by some of the "experts" here aren't actually money.
>>
>> There is a difference between legal tender and legal currency. Scottish
>> note are not legal tender anywhere (including Scotland IIRC) but they
>> are legal currency.
>
> They are no such thing.

The issue of Scottish (and NI) banknotes is authorised by UK parliament
and underwritten by the Bank of England. This is set out in the Banking
Act 2009 Part 6 Banknotes: Scotland and Northern Ireland.
You can google the actual law

This is from the governing body for Scottish Clearing banks, it should
be authoritive

<https://www.scotbanks.org.uk/banknotes/legal-position.html>

"Scottish Banknotes are legal currency – i.e. they are approved by the
UK Parliament. However, Scottish Bank notes are not Legal Tender, not
even in Scotland. In fact, no banknote whatsoever (including Bank of
England notes!) qualifies for the term 'legal tender' north of the
border and the Scottish economy seems to manage without that legal
protection."

Perhaps you would like to state why you maintain that they are not legal
currency? With a cite?

Andy
Re: Bitcoin confusion? [message #363356 is a reply to message #363330] Tue, 13 February 2018 10:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: JimP

On Tue, 13 Feb 2018 08:32:38 +0000, AndyW <Andy@nojunqmail.com> wrote:

> On 10/02/2018 15:50, JimP wrote:
>
>> Really ? Hmmm... There are still people playing d&d, Traveller,
>> Tunnels and Trolls, etc. Or did you mean a different role playing game
>> ?
>
> Ahhhhh! My era.
> I have an annual AD&D game that has been going on since the 80s. We meet
> together once a year at Christmas to continue a game and laugh at all
> the bits of us that have worn out, fallen out or spread out.

I have a web site full of maps:

https://crestofastar.drivein-jim.net/

There are links on that site's menus to my T&T, Traveller, Minotaurs
and Mazes, and other sites.

I'm currently running a play by post AD&D game on a web forum.

> I am also in the middle of making a Java based Traveller (little book
> version) world generation system with a view to expanding it to ship
> building and character generation.

There is an official Traveller forum.

> I also still have T&T, LaserBurn, RuneQuest, Golden Heroes (never quite
> figured that one out), Space Opera and Melee.
>
> I also play the D&D computer games but it is just not the same as dice,
> paper and real people.

Yeah, I've been told that Everquest, an online MMO somewhat like d20,
is a rpg... but it isn't.
Re: Bitcoin confusion? [message #363363 is a reply to message #363328] Tue, 13 February 2018 12:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Rob Morley

On Tue, 13 Feb 2018 08:22:46 +0000
AndyW <Andy@nojunqmail.com> wrote:

> On 09/02/2018 17:28, Rob Morley wrote:
>> On Fri, 9 Feb 2018 08:06:27 +0000
>> AndyW <Andy@nojunqmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> 2) The Bank of England withdrew their pound note in 1988
>>
>> But will still redeem withdrawn Bank of England promissory notes,
>> so it still has value, just not at the corner shop.
>
>
> Indeed. When my grandfather died at 98 in the year 2000 I was
> clearing his house and found shoe boxes of rolled notes in the bottom
> of his wardrobe ranging all the way from white notes through almost
> all of the various colours and sizes to old notes. We went to the
> bank who would happily accept the money but the staff advised us to
> take it to a specialist dealer who gave us a lot more than face value.
>
I wonder if someone at the BofE puts old banknotes on eBay, or if they
just destroy them. Maybe they never get them because people are aware
of their value to numismatists.
Re: free, huh, was Bitcoin confusion? [message #363370 is a reply to message #363343] Tue, 13 February 2018 13:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mausg is currently offline  mausg
Messages: 2483
Registered: May 2013
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 2018-02-13, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
> John Levine wrote:
>> In article <r2v18dtj601makeues3m3c2b8pbciha7g9@4ax.com>,
>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I'm getting the impression that you're not very familiar with the way that
>>>> the US medical system works. When's the last time you price shopped for a
>>>> doctor?
>>>
>>> I'm getting the impression that you're not very familiar with
>>> economics. In any market that does not have price controls there will
>>> be a range of prices, often for identical goods. That does not mean
>>> that doubling the supply of goods will not reduce prices across the
>>> board.
>>
>> You might want to read the classic 1963 paper by Kenneth Arrow
>> "Uncertainty and the Welfare Economics of Medical Care."
>>
>> http://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/82/2/PHCBP.pdf
>>
>> I happen to agree that it would be good to have more doctors and
>> nurses in the U.S., but I doubt that would make much difference to
>> healthcare prices.
>>
> Not anymore. Doctors used to have their own business. Now they're
> an employee. Nurses have to join the local union. That means
> that union rules usurp care practices.
>


Now, that is rubbish. From someone who has two nurses in the family,
crazy, maybe, but uncaring, no.

--
greymaus.ireland.ie
Just_Another_Grumpy_Old_Man
Re: useless old cash such as Bitcoin confusion? [message #363372 is a reply to message #363363] Tue, 13 February 2018 13:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
John Levine is currently offline  John Levine
Messages: 1405
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
In article <20180213174809.7a5e614e@Mars>,
> I wonder if someone at the BofE puts old banknotes on eBay, or if they
> just destroy them. Maybe they never get them because people are aware
> of their value to numismatists.

My associate, Ms. Google, recommends this article:

https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/banknotes/lifecycle-of-a-ban knote

Of particular note are the references to compost and to plastic plant pots.



--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
Re: free, huh, was Bitcoin confusion? [message #363376 is a reply to message #363343] Tue, 13 February 2018 14:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anne &amp; Lynn Wheel is currently offline  Anne &amp; Lynn Wheel
Messages: 3156
Registered: January 2012
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Senior Member
jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> writes:
> Not anymore. Doctors used to have their own business. Now they're
> an employee. Nurses have to join the local union. That means
> that union rules usurp care practices.

accelerated substantially by private-equity ... they acquire businesses
and then extract money in every way possible.

AMEX was in competition with KKR for private-equity take-over of RJR,
KKR wins but then runs into trouble and they hire away president
of AMEX to help
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbarians_at_the_Gate:_The_Fa ll_of_RJR_Nabisco

later at the turn of the century, the former AMEX president has become
head of another large private-equity company Barbarians at the Capitol:
Private Equity, Public Enemy
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2007/10/barbarians-capit ol-private-equity-public-enemy/

Lou Gerstner, former ceo of ibm, now heads the Carlyle Group, a
Washington-based global private equity firm whose 2006 revenues of $87
billion were just a few billion below ibm's. Carlyle has boasted George
H.W. Bush, George W. Bush, and former Secretary of State James Baker III
on its employee roster

.... snip ...

including acquiring beltway bandit that will employ Snowden.

Private-equity will acquire lots of beltway bandits and help accelerate
large increase in outsourcing to for-profit companies. Part of the issue
is gov. agencies aren't allowed to lobby congress, and beltway bandits
aren't allowed to use money from gov. contracts to lobby contracts ...
but its seems that there is no limit on private-equity companies to
lobby on behalf of their subsidiaries. just intelligence, 70% of the
budget and over half the people
http://www.investingdaily.com/17693/spies-like-us
which also significantly accelerates the rapidly spreading "success of
failure" culture (more profit from series of failures) ... especially
large dataprocessing related projects
http://www.govexec.com/excellence/management-matters/2007/04 /the-success-of-failure/24107/

However, private-equity also heavily moving into acquiring medical practices
and hospital systems and using every way possible to extract money, even
when illegal (seeing big opportunity with the aging baby boomers)

Private Equity Flouts State Regulations by Buying Medical Practices
https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2017/08/private-equity-flout s-state-regulations-buying-medical-practices.html

Given how state regulators did intervene in the sale of hospitals, their
complacency in the face of what in many states is an illegal practice,
that of non-MDs owning a medical practice, is surprising.

....

So private equity is doing its part to speed up this sorry trend. While
it appears to be too late to harass complicit state regulators with
letters asking them to explain why they are refusing to enforce the law,
the possibility of single payer represents an even bigger monkey wrench
to private equity's exit plans.

.... snip ...

.... i.e. not just insurance industry threatened by single payer.

posts mentioning private-equity
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#private.equity
former amex president posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#gerstner

some past reference mentioning private equity getting into health,
hospital, clinics, dental, etc
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014c.html#17</a> Royal Pardon For Turing
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014c.html#48</a> Royal Pardon For Turing
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014c.html#100</a> Royal Pardon For Turing
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014c.html#106</a> Royal Pardon For Turing
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014c.html#107</a> Royal Pardon For Turing
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014f.html#18</a> Before the Internet: The golden age of online services
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014f.html#42</a> Before the Internet: The golden age of online services
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014l.html#30</a> HP splits, again
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014m.html#70</a> LEO
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015.html#9</a> LEO
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2016c.html#65</a> A call for revolution
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2016h.html#63</a> GOP introduces plan to massively cut Social Security
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2016h.html#97</a> In American Towns, Private Profits From Public Works
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2016h.html#110</a> The top 50 hospitals that gouge patients the most
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017d.html#99</a> United Air Lines - an OODA-loop perspective
Re: Bitcoin confusion? [message #363378 is a reply to message #363329] Tue, 13 February 2018 15:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike Spencer is currently offline  Mike Spencer
Messages: 997
Registered: January 2012
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Senior Member
AndyW <Andy@nojunqmail.com> writes:

> On 09/02/2018 23:43, Peter Flass wrote:
>
>> Some would rather. Why do two people sit across a room from each other
>> staring at their phones and texti one another occasionally instead of
>> looking up and talking to each other.
>
> I have encountered this and asked the question.
> I had a group of teenagers in a training course and they all sat in a
> room silently on their phones. When I asked why they were not talking to
> each other they simply said "We are"
> Apparently conversation does not come with emojis and animation.

Hmmm... It doesn't come with what poker players call 'tells' either.

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
Re: useless old cash such as Bitcoin confusion? [message #363379 is a reply to message #363372] Tue, 13 February 2018 16:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
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Senior Member
On 2018-02-13, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:

> In article <20180213174809.7a5e614e@Mars>,
>
>> I wonder if someone at the BofE puts old banknotes on eBay, or if they
>> just destroy them. Maybe they never get them because people are aware
>> of their value to numismatists.
>
> My associate, Ms. Google, recommends this article:

We fired her recently for espionage.

> https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/banknotes/lifecycle-of-a-ban knote
>
> Of particular note are the references to compost and to plastic plant pots.

Love it. The two go together well. :-)

--
/~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!
Re: free, huh, was Bitcoin confusion? [message #363382 is a reply to message #363376] Tue, 13 February 2018 16:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anne &amp; Lynn Wheel is currently offline  Anne &amp; Lynn Wheel
Messages: 3156
Registered: January 2012
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Senior Member
PE heavily overlapped with government, Barbarians at the Capitol:
Private Equity, Public Enemy
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2007/10/barbarians-capit ol-private-equity-public-enemy/

Lou Gerstner, former ceo of ibm, now heads the Carlyle Group, a
Washington-based global private equity firm whose 2006 revenues of $87
billion were just a few billion below ibm's. Carlyle has boasted George
H.W. Bush, George W. Bush, and former Secretary of State James Baker III
on its employee roster

.... snip ...

including buying up beltway bandits and commpanies doing mercenary work
in perpetual wars (some getting tens of billions in no-bid contracts).

other companies
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbarians_at_the_Gate:_The_Fa ll_of_RJR_Nabisco
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/05/business/economy/05simmons .html?_r=0

as well as medical practices and hosptical systems

Private Equity Flouts State Regulations by Buying Medical Practices
https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2017/08/private-equity-flout s-state-regulations-buying-medical-practices.html

however, many of the same people

Former CIA director and then VP repeatedly claimed that he knew nothing about
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Contra_affair
because he was fulltime administration point person deregulating
financial industry ... creating S&L crisis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savings_and_loan_crisis
along with other members of his family
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savings_and_loan_crisis#Silvera do_Savings_and_Loan
and another
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0CE0D81E3BF 937A25753C1A966958260

another family member presides over the economic mess, 70 times larger
than the S&L crises. S&L crisis had 30,000 criminal referrals and 1000
criminal convictions with jailtime, proportionally the economic mess
should have 2.1M criminal referrals and 70,000 criminal convictions with
jailtime.

S&L crises posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#s&l.crises
economic mess posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#economic.mess

posts mentioning private-equity
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#private.equity
former amex president posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#gerstner
success of failure posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#success.of.failure
perpetual war posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#perpetual.war
military-industrial(-congressional) complex posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#military.industrial .complex
"Team B" posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#team.b
WMD posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#wmds
Re: Bitcoin confusion? [message #363389 is a reply to message #362558] Tue, 13 February 2018 17:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
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Senior Member
Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
> On 2018-02-13, AndyW <Andy@nojunqmail.com> wrote:
>> On 13/02/2018 10:09, Huge wrote:
>>> On 2018-02-13, AndyW <Andy@nojunqmail.com> wrote:
>
> [16 lines snipped]
>
>>>> There is a difference between legal tender and legal currency. Scottish
>>>> note are not legal tender anywhere (including Scotland IIRC) but they
>>>> are legal currency.
>>>
>>> They are no such thing.
>>
>> The issue of Scottish (and NI) banknotes is authorised by UK parliament
>> and underwritten by the Bank of England. This is set out in the Banking
>> Act 2009 Part 6 Banknotes: Scotland and Northern Ireland.
>
> And before 2009?
>
> But yes, I was wrong, apologies. However, my original points stand;
>
> - "legal tender" doesn't mean what a lot of people here think it does.
>
> - what is "legal tender" varies dramatically between jurisdictions.
>
> - That, as you rightly point out, money can be money without being legal
> tender.
>
> - That the definition of money as "what you can pay your taxes with" is
> naive verging on stupid. The standard economic definition is "a medium of
> exchange, a measure of value or a means of payment". No mention of
> taxes.
>
> - That stating "a pound is worth a pound" *is* stupid. A multi-trillion
> dollar FX market shows that.
>
> - That money is what people agree it is. There's nothing special
> or magic about it. If people agree Bitcoin is money then it *is* money. As
> were cowrie shells, cocoa beans, cows and many other things not necessarily
> beginning with 'C'.
>
>

On one Pacific island they use huge stone wheels as money.

--
Pete
Re: Bitcoin confusion? [message #363390 is a reply to message #363363] Tue, 13 February 2018 17:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
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Senior Member
Rob Morley <nospam@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Feb 2018 08:22:46 +0000
> AndyW <Andy@nojunqmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 09/02/2018 17:28, Rob Morley wrote:
>>> On Fri, 9 Feb 2018 08:06:27 +0000
>>> AndyW <Andy@nojunqmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> 2) The Bank of England withdrew their pound note in 1988
>>>
>>> But will still redeem withdrawn Bank of England promissory notes,
>>> so it still has value, just not at the corner shop.
>>
>>
>> Indeed. When my grandfather died at 98 in the year 2000 I was
>> clearing his house and found shoe boxes of rolled notes in the bottom
>> of his wardrobe ranging all the way from white notes through almost
>> all of the various colours and sizes to old notes. We went to the
>> bank who would happily accept the money but the staff advised us to
>> take it to a specialist dealer who gave us a lot more than face value.
>>
> I wonder if someone at the BofE puts old banknotes on eBay, or if they
> just destroy them. Maybe they never get them because people are aware
> of their value to numismatists.
>
>

What sort of trouble would an employee be in if he traded the old notes for
new ones from his wallet, $ for $ (or £ for £)?

--
Pete
Re: tired old money, along with Bitcoin confusion? [message #363391 is a reply to message #363390] Tue, 13 February 2018 17:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
John Levine is currently offline  John Levine
Messages: 1405
Registered: December 2011
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Senior Member
In article <999521512.540252884.625158.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org>,
Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> What sort of trouble would an employee be in if he traded the old notes for
> new ones from his wallet, $ for $ (or £ for £)?

There'd be no point. The old notes are just worn out, not antique or
otherwise special. I expect that the occasional rare ones are likely
to be picked out upstream by bank tellers.

--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
Re: useless old cash such as Bitcoin confusion? [message #363394 is a reply to message #363372] Tue, 13 February 2018 18:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Rob Morley

On Tue, 13 Feb 2018 18:49:18 -0000 (UTC)
John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:

> In article <20180213174809.7a5e614e@Mars>,
>> I wonder if someone at the BofE puts old banknotes on eBay, or if
>> they just destroy them. Maybe they never get them because people
>> are aware of their value to numismatists.
>
> My associate, Ms. Google, recommends this article:
>
> https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/banknotes/lifecycle-of-a-ban knote
>
> Of particular note are the references to compost and to plastic plant
> pots.
>
I meant properly old like the pre-war stuff (not recently withdrawn
waste paper) that people might occasionally come across in the effects
of deceased relatives and hand in to a bank. Most likely this just
doesn't happen. I still have a crisp clean ten bob note somewhere that
I'm hanging onto for a rainy day when I really need that 50p, or I
could flog it on eBay for an astounding two guineas. ;-)
Re: useless old cash such as Bitcoin confusion? [message #363397 is a reply to message #363394] Tue, 13 February 2018 19:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
John Levine is currently offline  John Levine
Messages: 1405
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
In article <20180213231511.475263df@Mars>,
Rob Morley <nospam@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> I meant properly old like the pre-war stuff (not recently withdrawn
> waste paper) that people might occasionally come across in the effects
> of deceased relatives and hand in to a bank. Most likely this just
> doesn't happen.

If it did, I expect the bank clerks would pick it out long before it
went to the note sorting machines.

--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
Re: Bitcoin confusion? [message #363398 is a reply to message #363389] Tue, 13 February 2018 19:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gene Wirchenko is currently offline  Gene Wirchenko
Messages: 1166
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Tue, 13 Feb 2018 15:18:14 -0700, Peter Flass
<peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:

[snip]

> On one Pacific island they use huge stone wheels as money.

Are you people going to stop yapping about money any time soon?

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko
Re: Bitcoin confusion? [message #363400 is a reply to message #363398] Tue, 13 February 2018 21:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: JimP

On Tue, 13 Feb 2018 16:52:36 -0800, Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net>
wrote:

> On Tue, 13 Feb 2018 15:18:14 -0700, Peter Flass
> <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>> On one Pacific island they use huge stone wheels as money.
>
> Are you people going to stop yapping about money any time soon?
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Gene Wirchenko

Yes, the Island of Yap. Although its mostly ceremonial money used like
that.
Re: Bitcoin confusion? [message #363401 is a reply to message #363353] Tue, 13 February 2018 21:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Tue, 13 Feb 2018 15:27:30 +0000, AndyW <Andy@nojunqmail.com> wrote:

> On 13/02/2018 12:09, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Tue, 13 Feb 2018 07:55:56 +0000, AndyW <Andy@nojunqmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 09/02/2018 15:13, Huge wrote:
>>>> On 2018-02-09, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
>>>> > Huge wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> none of you ever worked for a financial institution.
>>>> >
>>>> > You make that sound like a bad thing :-P
>>>>
>>>> It is if you're going to pontificate about financial matters.
>>>
>>> Indeed and that it how things should be for experts and also why every
>>> Obstetrician is female, every paediatrician is a child, every Olympic
>>> sprinting coach used to be a world champion sprinter, every ancient
>>> historian actually lived in ancient Rome and every vet is an animal.
>>
>> In other words it's fine with you that the obstetrician, pediatrician,
>> Olympic coach, historian, and vet have no actual training or
>> experiences as long as they are of a politically correct ethnicity.
>
> Wow!
> That is a wild interpretation, I genuinely cannot understand how you got
> from sarcasm about the Appeal to Experience logical fallacy to ethnicity.

I was attempting to be sarcastic about your sarcasm. Suggesting that
people commenting on financial matters never worked in that industry
is not the same as saying that only women can understand women's
illnesses. It is saying that somebody who works as an obstetrician
generally can be expected to know more about obstetrics than a random
poster on USENET.

>> I thought I knew a lot about finance. I mean I was an engineer, how
>> hard can it be. Now I work for one of the worlds largest financial
>> institutions and I found out that it's a lot different from what I
>> expected.
>
> IME market trading predictions is a lot of guesswork about when the herd
> of cows is going to panic and which direction it is going to stampede next.

There's more to finance than "market trading predictions".
>
>> However based on his attitude I doubt Huge has ever actually worked
>> anywhere for more than a month.
>
> He does seem a rather brusque chap but it keeps life interesting.
>
> Andy
Re: free, huh, was Bitcoin confusion? [message #363403 is a reply to message #363343] Tue, 13 February 2018 21:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On 13 Feb 2018 14:39:00 GMT, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:

> John Levine wrote:
>> In article <r2v18dtj601makeues3m3c2b8pbciha7g9@4ax.com>,
>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I'm getting the impression that you're not very familiar with the way that
>>>> the US medical system works. When's the last time you price shopped for a
>>>> doctor?
>>>
>>> I'm getting the impression that you're not very familiar with
>>> economics. In any market that does not have price controls there will
>>> be a range of prices, often for identical goods. That does not mean
>>> that doubling the supply of goods will not reduce prices across the
>>> board.
>>
>> You might want to read the classic 1963 paper by Kenneth Arrow
>> "Uncertainty and the Welfare Economics of Medical Care."
>>
>> http://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/82/2/PHCBP.pdf
>>
>> I happen to agree that it would be good to have more doctors and
>> nurses in the U.S., but I doubt that would make much difference to
>> healthcare prices.
>>
> Not anymore. Doctors used to have their own business. Now they're
> an employee. Nurses have to join the local union. That means
> that union rules usurp care practices.

My doctors are members of partnerships.
>
> /BAH
Re: Bitcoin confusion? [message #363417 is a reply to message #362558] Wed, 14 February 2018 03:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: AndyW

On 13/02/2018 16:19, Huge wrote:
> On 2018-02-13, AndyW <Andy@nojunqmail.com> wrote:

>> The issue of Scottish (and NI) banknotes is authorised by UK parliament
>> and underwritten by the Bank of England. This is set out in the Banking
>> Act 2009 Part 6 Banknotes: Scotland and Northern Ireland.
>
> And before 2009?

The 2009 act consolidated a raft of older legislation. copied from act
for completeness, I have no idea what they actually mean.

section 1 of the Bank Notes (Scotland) Act 1845 (authorisation to issue
banknotes)
(section 8 of the Bankers (Ireland) Act 1845 (authorisation to issue
banknotes).
section 9 of the Currency and Bank Notes Act 1928,
section 3 of the Bankers (Northern Ireland) Act 1928.
section 12 of the Bank Charter Act 1844,
the Coinage Act 1971
Re: Bitcoin confusion? [message #363418 is a reply to message #363389] Wed, 14 February 2018 03:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: AndyW

On 13/02/2018 22:18, Peter Flass wrote:
> On one Pacific island they use huge stone wheels as money.

From HitchHikers Guide to the Galaxy.

"The Triganic Pu is a unit of galactic currency, with an exchange rate
of eight Ningis to one Pu. This is simple enough, but, since a Ningi is
a triangular rubber coin six thousand eight hundred miles along each
side, no one has ever collected enough to own one Pu. Ningis are not
negotiable currency, because the Galactibanks refuse to deal in fiddling
small change."


Andy
Re: Bitcoin confusion? [message #363419 is a reply to message #363401] Wed, 14 February 2018 03:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: AndyW

On 14/02/2018 02:35, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Feb 2018 15:27:30 +0000, AndyW <Andy@nojunqmail.com> wrote:

>> Wow!
>> That is a wild interpretation, I genuinely cannot understand how you got
>> from sarcasm about the Appeal to Experience logical fallacy to ethnicity.
>
> I was attempting to be sarcastic about your sarcasm. Suggesting that
> people commenting on financial matters never worked in that industry
> is not the same as saying that only women can understand women's
> illnesses. It is saying that somebody who works as an obstetrician
> generally can be expected to know more about obstetrics than a random
> poster on USENET.

Ah. Meta Sarcasm. My apologies, I do not have the ability to go more
than 1 Sarcasm deep.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sarchasm

sarChasm
"the gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the person who doesn't
get it"

one of the winners in the Washington Post's Style Invitational - words
altered by adding, subtracting, or changing only one letter and
supplying a new definition*

My favourite entry is "Reintarnation" to be reborn as a Hillbilly..

However it must be said that it (and a few other entries) had appeared
on the UK radio show "I'm Sorry I Haven't a Clue" well before the WP
competition.

Andy
Re: tired old money, along with Bitcoin confusion? [message #363422 is a reply to message #363391] Wed, 14 February 2018 03:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mausg is currently offline  mausg
Messages: 2483
Registered: May 2013
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 2018-02-13, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
> In article <999521512.540252884.625158.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org>,
> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> What sort of trouble would an employee be in if he traded the old notes for
>> new ones from his wallet, $ for $ (or £ for £)?
>
> There'd be no point. The old notes are just worn out, not antique or
> otherwise special. I expect that the occasional rare ones are likely
> to be picked out upstream by bank tellers.
>

Bank tellers, is that some sort of US thing?

When I was young, I collected stamps, and odd coins. It was the thing
then. Out of thousands of stamps, I have probably two or three that
are worth more than zero, the coins, none (They are all worn, and
valuable coins need to be close to perfect.)


--
greymaus.ireland.ie
Just_Another_Grumpy_Old_Man
Re: tired old money, along with Bitcoin confusion? [message #363425 is a reply to message #363422] Wed, 14 February 2018 06:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andy Burns is currently offline  Andy Burns
Messages: 416
Registered: June 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
mausg wrote:

> John Levine wrote:
>
>> I expect that the occasional rare ones are likely
>> to be picked out upstream by bank tellers.
>
> Bank tellers, is that some sort of US thing?

I would expect cashiers/tellers to be disallowed from having any of
their own cash about their person while on duty ... so no nasty new
plastic fivers to swap for the those huge white fivers.
Re: useless old cash such as Bitcoin confusion? [message #363426 is a reply to message #363397] Wed, 14 February 2018 06:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Gareth's Downstairs Computer

On 14/02/2018 00:02, John Levine wrote:
> In article <20180213231511.475263df@Mars>,
> Rob Morley <nospam@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>> I meant properly old like the pre-war stuff (not recently withdrawn
>> waste paper) that people might occasionally come across in the effects
>> of deceased relatives and hand in to a bank. Most likely this just
>> doesn't happen.
>
> If it did, I expect the bank clerks would pick it out long before it
> went to the note sorting machines.
>

My father-in-law at one time worked at the Bank Of England (alongside
the actor who played the Uncle (Buster somebody?) in Only Fools and
Horses) and commented that when old notes were returned, their serial
numbers were ticked off, and if it was found that a certain serial
number had already been ticked off, then the newcomer would be
rejected as a forgery, even if the newcomer was, in fact, the pukka one!
Re: free, huh, was Bitcoin confusion? [message #363437 is a reply to message #363403] Wed, 14 February 2018 09:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jmfbahciv is currently offline  jmfbahciv
Messages: 6173
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
J. Clarke wrote:
> On 13 Feb 2018 14:39:00 GMT, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> John Levine wrote:
>>> In article <r2v18dtj601makeues3m3c2b8pbciha7g9@4ax.com>,
>>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >I'm getting the impression that you're not very familiar with the way
that
>>>> >the US medical system works. When's the last time you price shopped for
a
>>>> >doctor?
>>>>
>>>> I'm getting the impression that you're not very familiar with
>>>> economics. In any market that does not have price controls there will
>>>> be a range of prices, often for identical goods. That does not mean
>>>> that doubling the supply of goods will not reduce prices across the
>>>> board.
>>>
>>> You might want to read the classic 1963 paper by Kenneth Arrow
>>> "Uncertainty and the Welfare Economics of Medical Care."
>>>
>>> http://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/82/2/PHCBP.pdf
>>>
>>> I happen to agree that it would be good to have more doctors and
>>> nurses in the U.S., but I doubt that would make much difference to
>>> healthcare prices.
>>>
>> Not anymore. Doctors used to have their own business. Now they're
>> an employee. Nurses have to join the local union. That means
>> that union rules usurp care practices.
>
> My doctors are members of partnerships.

Partnerships are getting bought out.

/BAH
Re: free, huh, was Bitcoin confusion? [message #363459 is a reply to message #363437] Wed, 14 February 2018 13:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
pechter is currently offline  pechter
Messages: 452
Registered: July 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
In article <PM0005652D402EBDFF@aca41411.ipt.aol.com>,
jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
> J. Clarke wrote:
>> On 13 Feb 2018 14:39:00 GMT, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>> John Levine wrote:
>>>> In article <r2v18dtj601makeues3m3c2b8pbciha7g9@4ax.com>,
>>>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>I'm getting the impression that you're not very familiar with the way
> that
>>>> >>the US medical system works. When's the last time you price shopped for
> a
>>>> >>doctor?
>>>> >
>>>> >I'm getting the impression that you're not very familiar with
>>>> >economics. In any market that does not have price controls there will
>>>> >be a range of prices, often for identical goods. That does not mean
>>>> >that doubling the supply of goods will not reduce prices across the
>>>> >board.
>>>>
>>>> You might want to read the classic 1963 paper by Kenneth Arrow
>>>> "Uncertainty and the Welfare Economics of Medical Care."
>>>>
>>>> http://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/82/2/PHCBP.pdf
>>>>
>>>> I happen to agree that it would be good to have more doctors and
>>>> nurses in the U.S., but I doubt that would make much difference to
>>>> healthcare prices.
>>>>
>>> Not anymore. Doctors used to have their own business. Now they're
>>> an employee. Nurses have to join the local union. That means
>>> that union rules usurp care practices.
>>
>> My doctors are members of partnerships.
>
> Partnerships are getting bought out.
>
> /BAH

Mine has been purchased by Meridian which joined with Hackensack Hospital.

The better to work together with the insurance companies to remove your money
from your wallet. Now the group is 16 hospitals at present plus a pile
of primary care.

https://www.hackensackmeridianhealth.org/


Bill
Re: free, huh, was Bitcoin confusion? [message #363461 is a reply to message #363459] Wed, 14 February 2018 13:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 2018-02-14, William Pechter
<pechter@lakewoodmicro-fbsd-tor1-01.lakewoodmicro.com> wrote:

> Mine has been purchased by Meridian which joined with Hackensack Hospital.
>
> The better to work together with the insurance companies to remove your money
> from your wallet.

The way I once read it, it comes down to a decision as to whether to perform
a walletotomy or a complete bankrollectomy.

--
/~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!
Re: free, huh, was Bitcoin confusion? [message #363498 is a reply to message #363437] Wed, 14 February 2018 21:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On 14 Feb 2018 14:41:58 GMT, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:

> J. Clarke wrote:
>> On 13 Feb 2018 14:39:00 GMT, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>> John Levine wrote:
>>>> In article <r2v18dtj601makeues3m3c2b8pbciha7g9@4ax.com>,
>>>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>I'm getting the impression that you're not very familiar with the way
> that
>>>> >>the US medical system works. When's the last time you price shopped for
> a
>>>> >>doctor?
>>>> >
>>>> >I'm getting the impression that you're not very familiar with
>>>> >economics. In any market that does not have price controls there will
>>>> >be a range of prices, often for identical goods. That does not mean
>>>> >that doubling the supply of goods will not reduce prices across the
>>>> >board.
>>>>
>>>> You might want to read the classic 1963 paper by Kenneth Arrow
>>>> "Uncertainty and the Welfare Economics of Medical Care."
>>>>
>>>> http://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/82/2/PHCBP.pdf
>>>>
>>>> I happen to agree that it would be good to have more doctors and
>>>> nurses in the U.S., but I doubt that would make much difference to
>>>> healthcare prices.
>>>>
>>> Not anymore. Doctors used to have their own business. Now they're
>>> an employee. Nurses have to join the local union. That means
>>> that union rules usurp care practices.
>>
>> My doctors are members of partnerships.
>
> Partnerships are getting bought out.

If they want to be. There is no one going around holding a gun to the
partners' heads and telling them "sell or else".
Re: free, huh, was Bitcoin confusion? [message #363501 is a reply to message #363382] Wed, 14 February 2018 22:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anne &amp; Lynn Wheel is currently offline  Anne &amp; Lynn Wheel
Messages: 3156
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> writes:
> Private Equity Flouts State Regulations by Buying Medical Practices
> https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2017/08/private-equity-flout s-state-regulations-buying-medical-practices.html

misc. more ...

Big Med; Restaurant chains have managed to combine quality control, cost
control, and innovation. Can health care?
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2012/08/13/big-med
How Not To Fix US Health Care: Copy The Cheesecake Factory
https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevedenning/2012/08/13/how-not -to-fix-us-health-care-copy-the-cheesecake-factory/
HCA: The Unsustainable Private Equity Bubble in US Health Care
https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevedenning/2012/08/15/private -equity-wont-fix-health-care-either/#3e8d2db13735

The NYT article sheds a harsh light on the management practices of
industry giant HCA, which controls 163 hospitals from New Hampshire to
California. HCA has made huge profits—much more than its
competitors—through financial innovation without necessarily providing
benefits to patients or society. HCA has succeeded in:

* Charging more for the same
* Restricting access to low-return services
* Increasing the quantity of lucrative services
* Cutting staff costs

....

The big winners from these practices at HCA have been three private
equity firms—Bain Capital, Merrill Lynch and Kohlberg Kravis Roberts &
Company—that bought HCA in late 2006.

.... snip ...

Cerberus Uses Private Equity Looting Strategy With Scandal-Ridden
Steward Health Care Hospitals
https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2016/10/cerberus-uses-privat e-equity-looting-strategy-to-scandal-ridden-steward-health-c are-hospitals.html

private equity posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#private.equity
Re: free, huh, was Bitcoin confusion? [message #363518 is a reply to message #363498] Thu, 15 February 2018 09:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jmfbahciv is currently offline  jmfbahciv
Messages: 6173
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
J. Clarke wrote:
> On 14 Feb 2018 14:41:58 GMT, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> J. Clarke wrote:
>>> On 13 Feb 2018 14:39:00 GMT, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> John Levine wrote:
>>>> > In article <r2v18dtj601makeues3m3c2b8pbciha7g9@4ax.com>,
>>>> > J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>I'm getting the impression that you're not very familiar with the way
>> that
>>>> >>>the US medical system works. When's the last time you price shopped
for
>> a
>>>> >>>doctor?
>>>> >>
>>>> >>I'm getting the impression that you're not very familiar with
>>>> >>economics. In any market that does not have price controls there will
>>>> >>be a range of prices, often for identical goods. That does not mean
>>>> >>that doubling the supply of goods will not reduce prices across the
>>>> >>board.
>>>> >
>>>> > You might want to read the classic 1963 paper by Kenneth Arrow
>>>> > "Uncertainty and the Welfare Economics of Medical Care."
>>>> >
>>>> > http://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/82/2/PHCBP.pdf
>>>> >
>>>> > I happen to agree that it would be good to have more doctors and
>>>> > nurses in the U.S., but I doubt that would make much difference to
>>>> > healthcare prices.
>>>> >
>>>> Not anymore. Doctors used to have their own business. Now they're
>>>> an employee. Nurses have to join the local union. That means
>>>> that union rules usurp care practices.
>>>
>>> My doctors are members of partnerships.
>>
>> Partnerships are getting bought out.
>
> If they want to be. There is no one going around holding a gun to the
> partners' heads and telling them "sell or else".

Yes, there is. It's called lawsuit insurance. the premiums are so high,
and increasing, that it's too expensive for a small practice.

/BAH
Re: free, huh, was Bitcoin confusion? [message #363520 is a reply to message #363459] Thu, 15 February 2018 09:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jmfbahciv is currently offline  jmfbahciv
Messages: 6173
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
William Pechter wrote:
> In article <PM0005652D402EBDFF@aca41411.ipt.aol.com>,
> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>> J. Clarke wrote:
>>> On 13 Feb 2018 14:39:00 GMT, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> John Levine wrote:
>>>> > In article <r2v18dtj601makeues3m3c2b8pbciha7g9@4ax.com>,
>>>> > J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>I'm getting the impression that you're not very familiar with the way
>> that
>>>> >>>the US medical system works. When's the last time you price shopped
for
>> a
>>>> >>>doctor?
>>>> >>
>>>> >>I'm getting the impression that you're not very familiar with
>>>> >>economics. In any market that does not have price controls there will
>>>> >>be a range of prices, often for identical goods. That does not mean
>>>> >>that doubling the supply of goods will not reduce prices across the
>>>> >>board.
>>>> >
>>>> > You might want to read the classic 1963 paper by Kenneth Arrow
>>>> > "Uncertainty and the Welfare Economics of Medical Care."
>>>> >
>>>> > http://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/82/2/PHCBP.pdf
>>>> >
>>>> > I happen to agree that it would be good to have more doctors and
>>>> > nurses in the U.S., but I doubt that would make much difference to
>>>> > healthcare prices.
>>>> >
>>>> Not anymore. Doctors used to have their own business. Now they're
>>>> an employee. Nurses have to join the local union. That means
>>>> that union rules usurp care practices.
>>>
>>> My doctors are members of partnerships.
>>
>> Partnerships are getting bought out.
>>
>> /BAH
>
> Mine has been purchased by Meridian which joined with Hackensack Hospital.
>
> The better to work together with the insurance companies to remove your
money
> from your wallet. Now the group is 16 hospitals at present plus a pile
> of primary care.
>
> https://www.hackensackmeridianhealth.org/

The one here which is currently snarfing up everything is called
Spectrum. I have no idea who or what owns them. I don't go
to doctors; it's hazardous to my health.

/BAH
Re: free, huh, was Bitcoin confusion? [message #363523 is a reply to message #363518] Thu, 15 February 2018 11:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
John Levine is currently offline  John Levine
Messages: 1405
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
In article <PM00056541A684A3CE@aca43d2b.ipt.aol.com>,
jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>> If they want to be. There is no one going around holding a gun to the
>> partners' heads and telling them "sell or else".
>
> Yes, there is. It's called lawsuit insurance. the premiums are so high,
> and increasing, that it's too expensive for a small practice.

I would be most interested to see documentation of this rather extreme claim.

I'm aware that some specialties like obstetrics have lawsuit problems,
but other than that it's more a political talking point than a real
problem.

--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
Re: free, huh, was Bitcoin confusion? [message #363529 is a reply to message #363518] Thu, 15 February 2018 12:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
pechter is currently offline  pechter
Messages: 452
Registered: July 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
In article <PM00056541A684A3CE@aca43d2b.ipt.aol.com>,
jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
> J. Clarke wrote:
>> On 14 Feb 2018 14:41:58 GMT, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>> J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> On 13 Feb 2018 14:39:00 GMT, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >John Levine wrote:
>>>> >> In article <r2v18dtj601makeues3m3c2b8pbciha7g9@4ax.com>,
>>>> >> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>>I'm getting the impression that you're not very familiar with the way
>>> that
>>>> >>>>the US medical system works. When's the last time you price shopped
> for
>>> a
>>>> >>>>doctor?
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>I'm getting the impression that you're not very familiar with
>>>> >>>economics. In any market that does not have price controls there will
>>>> >>>be a range of prices, often for identical goods. That does not mean
>>>> >>>that doubling the supply of goods will not reduce prices across the
>>>> >>>board.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> You might want to read the classic 1963 paper by Kenneth Arrow
>>>> >> "Uncertainty and the Welfare Economics of Medical Care."
>>>> >>
>>>> >> http://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/82/2/PHCBP.pdf
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I happen to agree that it would be good to have more doctors and
>>>> >> nurses in the U.S., but I doubt that would make much difference to
>>>> >> healthcare prices.
>>>> >>
>>>> >Not anymore. Doctors used to have their own business. Now they're
>>>> >an employee. Nurses have to join the local union. That means
>>>> >that union rules usurp care practices.
>>>>
>>>> My doctors are members of partnerships.
>>>
>>> Partnerships are getting bought out.
>>
>> If they want to be. There is no one going around holding a gun to the
>> partners' heads and telling them "sell or else".
>
> Yes, there is. It's called lawsuit insurance. the premiums are so high,
> and increasing, that it's too expensive for a small practice.
>
> /BAH


Nah... lawsuits are just one thing. Also the need for standardized electronic
medical records, computerized billing, insurance company rules to get
reimbursement.

Most doctors I know hate the business side of stuff and are happy to unload
it to someone else.

Bill
Re: free, huh, was Bitcoin confusion? [message #363574 is a reply to message #363518] Thu, 15 February 2018 21:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On 15 Feb 2018 14:53:25 GMT, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:

> J. Clarke wrote:
>> On 14 Feb 2018 14:41:58 GMT, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>> J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> On 13 Feb 2018 14:39:00 GMT, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >John Levine wrote:
>>>> >> In article <r2v18dtj601makeues3m3c2b8pbciha7g9@4ax.com>,
>>>> >> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>>I'm getting the impression that you're not very familiar with the way
>>> that
>>>> >>>>the US medical system works. When's the last time you price shopped
> for
>>> a
>>>> >>>>doctor?
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>I'm getting the impression that you're not very familiar with
>>>> >>>economics. In any market that does not have price controls there will
>>>> >>>be a range of prices, often for identical goods. That does not mean
>>>> >>>that doubling the supply of goods will not reduce prices across the
>>>> >>>board.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> You might want to read the classic 1963 paper by Kenneth Arrow
>>>> >> "Uncertainty and the Welfare Economics of Medical Care."
>>>> >>
>>>> >> http://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/82/2/PHCBP.pdf
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I happen to agree that it would be good to have more doctors and
>>>> >> nurses in the U.S., but I doubt that would make much difference to
>>>> >> healthcare prices.
>>>> >>
>>>> >Not anymore. Doctors used to have their own business. Now they're
>>>> >an employee. Nurses have to join the local union. That means
>>>> >that union rules usurp care practices.
>>>>
>>>> My doctors are members of partnerships.
>>>
>>> Partnerships are getting bought out.
>>
>> If they want to be. There is no one going around holding a gun to the
>> partners' heads and telling them "sell or else".
>
> Yes, there is. It's called lawsuit insurance. the premiums are so high,
> and increasing, that it's too expensive for a small practice.

Who said anything about "a small practice". There can be a hundred
doctors in a partnership.
Re: free, huh, was Bitcoin confusion? [message #363575 is a reply to message #363523] Thu, 15 February 2018 21:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Thu, 15 Feb 2018 16:02:44 -0000 (UTC), John Levine
<johnl@taugh.com> wrote:

> In article <PM00056541A684A3CE@aca43d2b.ipt.aol.com>,
> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>> If they want to be. There is no one going around holding a gun to the
>>> partners' heads and telling them "sell or else".
>>
>> Yes, there is. It's called lawsuit insurance. the premiums are so high,
>> and increasing, that it's too expensive for a small practice.
>
> I would be most interested to see documentation of this rather extreme claim.
>
> I'm aware that some specialties like obstetrics have lawsuit problems,
> but other than that it's more a political talking point than a real
> problem.

< https://www.cunninghamgroupins.com/historic-medical-malpract ice-insurance-rates/>
will give you historical rates for several specialties and a wide
range of locations. In CT it can run from 35,000 a year or so up to
around 170,000.
Re: free, huh, was Bitcoin confusion? [message #363595 is a reply to message #363575] Fri, 16 February 2018 03:39 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
mausg is currently offline  mausg
Messages: 2483
Registered: May 2013
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 2018-02-16, J Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Feb 2018 16:02:44 -0000 (UTC), John Levine
> <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
>
>> In article <PM00056541A684A3CE@aca43d2b.ipt.aol.com>,
>> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>>> If they want to be. There is no one going around holding a gun to the
>>>> partners' heads and telling them "sell or else".
>>>
>>> Yes, there is. It's called lawsuit insurance. the premiums are so high,
>>> and increasing, that it's too expensive for a small practice.
>>
>> I would be most interested to see documentation of this rather extreme claim.
>>
>> I'm aware that some specialties like obstetrics have lawsuit problems,
>> but other than that it's more a political talking point than a real
>> problem.
>
> < https://www.cunninghamgroupins.com/historic-medical-malpract ice-insurance-rates/>
> will give you historical rates for several specialties and a wide
> range of locations. In CT it can run from 35,000 a year or so up to
> around 170,000.

Some years ago, obs and gynie here, (.ie) was 200,000. and it was
rumored that private practices simply did not have it, get sued,
go bankrupt.

Story i heard heard recently, but supposed to have occured much
before, doctor who qualified somewhere in Africa, was looking at an
x-ray. said to the nurse, "There is something very wrong with this
ankle." Nurse: "Thats because the x-ray is of an elbow"


--
greymaus.ireland.ie
Just_Another_Grumpy_Old_Man
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