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Apple IIc memory test [message #359188] Wed, 20 December 2017 20:29 Go to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: chris.rupnik

Hi
Recently took out my apple IIc that i have had for 20+years. I have had lots of trouble with ADPPRO trying to bootstrap.
I have only one diskette - that i now know is good (I booted it on my IIGS). It fails to boot on the IIC

I now believe that there is a memory issue - as I ran the Jim Sather code listed on an applefritter post. . I ran it originally on my IIC - but didn't know what to expect. I therefore ran it on my virtual II and finally the IIGS, and the results are completely different (worrysome!)

Please review the video here https://youtu.be/YCiLqLxn1xI

I cannot write down all the memory locations listed as they scroll much too quickly.

I would appreciate some guidance on next steps please.
Re: Apple IIc memory test [message #359194 is a reply to message #359188] Wed, 20 December 2017 21:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: frank_o_rama

there is a built-in system test on the //c. Hold open-apple, closed-apple, and control and then hit reset to run it. Will take for a minute or so of random flashing colors. If everything is OK it will say "SYSTEM OK". If not it will tell you where the problem lies.

Could be a problem with the internal drive, if the self-test comes back ok. Maybe needs a head cleaning, or could be a bad rubber belt on the drive mechanism.
Re: Apple IIc memory test [message #359195 is a reply to message #359194] Wed, 20 December 2017 21:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: chris.rupnik

On Wednesday, December 20, 2017 at 9:08:57 PM UTC-5, frank_...@hotmail.com wrote:
> there is a built-in system test on the //c. Hold open-apple, closed-apple, and control and then hit reset to run it. Will take for a minute or so of random flashing colors. If everything is OK it will say "SYSTEM OK". If not it will tell you where the problem lies.
>
> Could be a problem with the internal drive, if the self-test comes back ok. Maybe needs a head cleaning, or could be a bad rubber belt on the drive mechanism.

That memory test is only available in later ROMS. I have a ROM 255 and the self test just goes through some hgr screens and a little chirp in a loop. Apparently not worth much.
Re: Apple IIc memory test [message #359425 is a reply to message #359188] Sat, 23 December 2017 05:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Antony Mauget

Addresses shown at the bottom of the screen are detected as bad ones.
It seems you have now to replace the RAM chips on the motherboard (labelled
MDRx).

--
________________
Antony
Apple II forever
Re: Apple IIc memory test [message #359434 is a reply to message #359425] Sat, 23 December 2017 10:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: chris.rupnik

On Saturday, December 23, 2017 at 5:11:00 AM UTC-5, Antony Mauget wrote:
> Addresses shown at the bottom of the screen are detected as bad ones.
> It seems you have now to replace the RAM chips on the motherboard (labelled
> MDRx).
>
> --
> ________________
> Antony
> Apple II forever

There is a MECC tool that can narrow down which ram chip is the problem? Or should I upgrade the ROM to a later one with the built in test?
Re: Apple IIc memory test [message #359451 is a reply to message #359434] Sat, 23 December 2017 10:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Chris Zuhars

Other than time, it doesn’t cost anything to try a diagnostic disk. But the problem with a floppy-based tool is that the computer might not even boot to the floppy or load the program correctly if a particular chip is bad. You’re basically in the blind.

So buying a ROM upgrade kit would help. But in the end, you’ve still got some soldering to do. May as well replace them all.

Chris Z
Re: Apple IIc memory test [message #359455 is a reply to message #359451] Sat, 23 December 2017 11:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: chris.rupnik

On Saturday, December 23, 2017 at 10:36:10 AM UTC-5, Chris Zuhars wrote:
> Other than time, it doesn’t cost anything to try a diagnostic disk. But the problem with a floppy-based tool is that the computer might not even boot to the floppy or load the program correctly if a particular chip is bad. You’re basically in the blind.
>
> So buying a ROM upgrade kit would help. But in the end, you’ve still got some soldering to do. May as well replace them all.
>
> Chris Z

Tried to boot the MECC diagnostic disk fails (known good disk boots fine on iigs) . Cannot successfully load ADTpro to transfer serially. Looks like machine is in trouble!
Re: Apple IIc memory test [message #359748 is a reply to message #359455] Thu, 28 December 2017 20:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Chris Rupnik

On Saturday, December 23, 2017 at 11:01:44 AM UTC-5, Chris Rupnik wrote:
> On Saturday, December 23, 2017 at 10:36:10 AM UTC-5, Chris Zuhars wrote:
>> Other than time, it doesn’t cost anything to try a diagnostic disk. But the problem with a floppy-based tool is that the computer might not even boot to the floppy or load the program correctly if a particular chip is bad. You’re basically in the blind.
>>
>> So buying a ROM upgrade kit would help. But in the end, you’ve still got some soldering to do. May as well replace them all.
>>
>> Chris Z
>
> Tried to boot the MECC diagnostic disk fails (known good disk boots fine on iigs) . Cannot successfully load ADTpro to transfer serially. Looks like machine is in trouble!

Can someone who has performed the IIC rom upgrade contact me offline ? I am contemplating next steps and need to discuss please
Re: Apple IIc memory test [message #359778 is a reply to message #359748] Fri, 29 December 2017 17:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: frank_o_rama

I would fix the RAM first. No sense spending time upgrading a machine which has other problems. (Unless the later ROM self-test can also test the MMU, which might be your problem--not sure)

You have a lot of addresses showing with errors, most of which where a disk program would load itself into. could be multiple RAM chips, or an address multiplexer or the MMU that has gone bad. frequently fried RAM is power supply related, too, so I would check your voltages off the 'brick'.

Another check would be to take a location that's showing bad and try POKEing $00 and $FF to it, and then PEEKing it back. Then you can narrow it down to what bits (and hence chips) are not changing. The PEEK will be different than the POKE. Each of the 8 RAM chips holds one of those bits.

Be ESD-safe once you get the case apart. You have the early IIc so at least the chips are probably socketed. Can just 'shotgun repair' them all with these from Jameco which I think are compatible.

https://www.jameco.com/z/4164-150-Major-Brands-64KX1-DIP-16- DRAM-150NS_41662.html

Frank



On Thursday, December 28, 2017 at 5:13:11 PM UTC-8, Chris Rupnik wrote:
>>
>> Tried to boot the MECC diagnostic disk fails (known good disk boots fine on iigs) . Cannot successfully load ADTpro to transfer serially. Looks like machine is in trouble!
>
> Can someone who has performed the IIC rom upgrade contact me offline ? I am contemplating next steps and need to discuss please
Re: Apple IIc memory test [message #359821 is a reply to message #359778] Sat, 30 December 2017 13:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Chris Rupnik

I was considering the ROM upgrade solely for the diagnostic tools included, thinking it would help point me in the direction on which ram chip is bad.
The chips are not socketed - so removing and re-sodering is not my forte.i would hate to scrap a board because i am clumsy, thus wanted to minimize how many ram chips i would remove.

Thanks for your reply!


On Friday, December 29, 2017 at 5:09:33 PM UTC-5, frank_...@hotmail.com wrote:
> I would fix the RAM first. No sense spending time upgrading a machine which has other problems. (Unless the later ROM self-test can also test the MMU, which might be your problem--not sure)
>
> You have a lot of addresses showing with errors, most of which where a disk program would load itself into. could be multiple RAM chips, or an address multiplexer or the MMU that has gone bad. frequently fried RAM is power supply related, too, so I would check your voltages off the 'brick'.
>
> Another check would be to take a location that's showing bad and try POKEing $00 and $FF to it, and then PEEKing it back. Then you can narrow it down to what bits (and hence chips) are not changing. The PEEK will be different than the POKE. Each of the 8 RAM chips holds one of those bits.
>
> Be ESD-safe once you get the case apart. You have the early IIc so at least the chips are probably socketed. Can just 'shotgun repair' them all with these from Jameco which I think are compatible.
>
> https://www.jameco.com/z/4164-150-Major-Brands-64KX1-DIP-16- DRAM-150NS_41662.html
>
> Frank
>
>
>
> On Thursday, December 28, 2017 at 5:13:11 PM UTC-8, Chris Rupnik wrote:
>>>
>>> Tried to boot the MECC diagnostic disk fails (known good disk boots fine on iigs) . Cannot successfully load ADTpro to transfer serially. Looks like machine is in trouble!
>>
>> Can someone who has performed the IIC rom upgrade contact me offline ? I am contemplating next steps and need to discuss please
Re: Apple IIc memory test [message #359837 is a reply to message #359778] Sun, 31 December 2017 00:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Michael J. Mahon is currently offline  Michael J. Mahon
Messages: 1767
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
<frank_o_rama@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> I would fix the RAM first. No sense spending time upgrading a machine
> which has other problems. (Unless the later ROM self-test can also test
> the MMU, which might be your problem--not sure)
>
> You have a lot of addresses showing with errors, most of which where a
> disk program would load itself into. could be multiple RAM chips, or an
> address multiplexer or the MMU that has gone bad. frequently fried RAM is
> power supply related, too, so I would check your voltages off the 'brick'.
>
> Another check would be to take a location that's showing bad and try
> POKEing $00 and $FF to it, and then PEEKing it back. Then you can narrow
> it down to what bits (and hence chips) are not changing. The PEEK will be
> different than the POKE. Each of the 8 RAM chips holds one of those bits.
>
> Be ESD-safe once you get the case apart. You have the early IIc so at
> least the chips are probably socketed. Can just 'shotgun repair' them all
> with these from Jameco which I think are compatible.
>
> https://www.jameco.com/z/4164-150-Major-Brands-64KX1-DIP-16- DRAM-150NS_41662.html
>
> Frank
>
>
>
> On Thursday, December 28, 2017 at 5:13:11 PM UTC-8, Chris Rupnik wrote:
>>>
>>> Tried to boot the MECC diagnostic disk fails (known good disk boots
>>> fine on iigs) . Cannot successfully load ADTpro to transfer serially.
>>> Looks like machine is in trouble!
>>
>> Can someone who has performed the IIC rom upgrade contact me offline ? I
>> am contemplating next steps and need to discuss please
>
>

Note that a single bad RAM chip will produce errors *everywhere*.

A simple type-in diagnostic can easily locate a hard bit failure.

--
-michael - NadaNet 3.1 and AppleCrate II: http://michaeljmahon.com
Re: Apple IIc memory test [message #359841 is a reply to message #359821] Sun, 31 December 2017 03:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: frank_o_rama

Well I guess if the ROM is socketed, and the RAM chips are not, on second thought I would do the ROM first. The Sams Computerfacts seems to show them as socketed.

If you end up removing any RAM, just clip the leads off rather than trying to pull it whole. Use a good soldering iron like a Hakko or something (personally don't like the Wellers) and some desolder wick. Once you clip the chip off there's really not too much to damage if you're careful. Start with some junk boards for practice, heat the thing you want to solder and not the solder itself, be a little patient while the wick gets wicking, keep the tip and wick clean, etc. Can recommend these...

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006MQD7M4/

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0195UVWJ8/


Once you get a diagnostic running, I'd post your results here. When I did mine I ended up having to replace two chips as I confused little- vs big-endian. Something I'm sure an old hand like Michael would have already known. Good luck!

Frank



On Saturday, December 30, 2017 at 10:45:53 AM UTC-8, Chris Rupnik wrote:
> I was considering the ROM upgrade solely for the diagnostic tools included, thinking it would help point me in the direction on which ram chip is bad.
> The chips are not socketed - so removing and re-sodering is not my forte.i would hate to scrap a board because i am clumsy, thus wanted to minimize how many ram chips i would remove.
>
> Thanks for your reply!
>
Re: Apple IIc memory test [message #359875 is a reply to message #359837] Sun, 31 December 2017 18:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Chris Rupnik

Hi Michael
Are you referring to this program? Thats what the youtube video output is of

C050 C053 C054 C057 N 265:FF N 266<265.BFFEM 266<265.BFFEV 265:0 N 266<265.BFFEM 266<265.BFFEV 34:14 (Return)

However - if you have another program in mind, i would be very happy to try it!

Chris

On Sunday, December 31, 2017 at 12:37:44 AM UTC-5, Michael J. Mahon wrote:
> <frank_o_rama@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I would fix the RAM first. No sense spending time upgrading a machine
>> which has other problems. (Unless the later ROM self-test can also test
>> the MMU, which might be your problem--not sure)
>>
>> You have a lot of addresses showing with errors, most of which where a
>> disk program would load itself into. could be multiple RAM chips, or an
>> address multiplexer or the MMU that has gone bad. frequently fried RAM is
>> power supply related, too, so I would check your voltages off the 'brick'.
>>
>> Another check would be to take a location that's showing bad and try
>> POKEing $00 and $FF to it, and then PEEKing it back. Then you can narrow
>> it down to what bits (and hence chips) are not changing. The PEEK will be
>> different than the POKE. Each of the 8 RAM chips holds one of those bits.
>>
>> Be ESD-safe once you get the case apart. You have the early IIc so at
>> least the chips are probably socketed. Can just 'shotgun repair' them all
>> with these from Jameco which I think are compatible.
>>
>> https://www.jameco.com/z/4164-150-Major-Brands-64KX1-DIP-16- DRAM-150NS_41662.html
>>
>> Frank
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, December 28, 2017 at 5:13:11 PM UTC-8, Chris Rupnik wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Tried to boot the MECC diagnostic disk fails (known good disk boots
>>>> fine on iigs) . Cannot successfully load ADTpro to transfer serially.
>>>> Looks like machine is in trouble!
>>>
>>> Can someone who has performed the IIC rom upgrade contact me offline ? I
>>> am contemplating next steps and need to discuss please
>>
>>
>
> Note that a single bad RAM chip will produce errors *everywhere*.
>
> A simple type-in diagnostic can easily locate a hard bit failure.
>
> --
> -michael - NadaNet 3.1 and AppleCrate II: http://michaeljmahon.com
Re: Apple IIc memory test [message #359892 is a reply to message #359875] Mon, 01 January 2018 11:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Michael J. Mahon is currently offline  Michael J. Mahon
Messages: 1767
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Chris Rupnik <chris_rupnik@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Michael
> Are you referring to this program? Thats what the youtube video output is of
>
> C050 C053 C054 C057 N 265:FF N 266<265.BFFEM 266<265.BFFEV 265:0 N
> 266<265.BFFEM 266<265.BFFEV 34:14 (Return)
>
> However - if you have another program in mind, i would be very happy to try it!
>
> Chris

Yes, that's the kind of test I had in mind. It isn't very good at finding
intermittent errors, but it should easily locate a hard-failed chip. It
does not catch address errors.

This test checks all bits for their ability to store 1 or 0. Since each
memory chip stored one bit of all bytes (except for machines with less than
eight RAM chips), modifying the test value can localize the bad bit. Try
1,2,4,8,16,32,64,128 in place of the $FF at $265.

If only one or two fail, then the chips corresponding to the failing bit
pattern(s) are the problem. If all fail, I'd be inclined to suspect some
other issue, like a failing bit in a data tranceiver (unlikely since so
much works) or in an address latch.

Good luck!

-Michael


> On Sunday, December 31, 2017 at 12:37:44 AM UTC-5, Michael J. Mahon wrote:
>> <frank_o_rama@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I would fix the RAM first. No sense spending time upgrading a machine
>>> which has other problems. (Unless the later ROM self-test can also test
>>> the MMU, which might be your problem--not sure)
>>>
>>> You have a lot of addresses showing with errors, most of which where a
>>> disk program would load itself into. could be multiple RAM chips, or an
>>> address multiplexer or the MMU that has gone bad. frequently fried RAM is
>>> power supply related, too, so I would check your voltages off the 'brick'.
>>>
>>> Another check would be to take a location that's showing bad and try
>>> POKEing $00 and $FF to it, and then PEEKing it back. Then you can narrow
>>> it down to what bits (and hence chips) are not changing. The PEEK will be
>>> different than the POKE. Each of the 8 RAM chips holds one of those bits.
>>>
>>> Be ESD-safe once you get the case apart. You have the early IIc so at
>>> least the chips are probably socketed. Can just 'shotgun repair' them all
>>> with these from Jameco which I think are compatible.
>>>
>>> https://www.jameco.com/z/4164-150-Major-Brands-64KX1-DIP-16- DRAM-150NS_41662.html
>>>
>>> Frank
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thursday, December 28, 2017 at 5:13:11 PM UTC-8, Chris Rupnik wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Tried to boot the MECC diagnostic disk fails (known good disk boots
>>>> > fine on iigs) . Cannot successfully load ADTpro to transfer serially.
>>>> > Looks like machine is in trouble!
>>>>
>>>> Can someone who has performed the IIC rom upgrade contact me offline ? I
>>>> am contemplating next steps and need to discuss please
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Note that a single bad RAM chip will produce errors *everywhere*.
>>
>> A simple type-in diagnostic can easily locate a hard bit failure.
Re: Apple IIc memory test [message #359901 is a reply to message #359892] Mon, 01 January 2018 14:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Michael J. Mahon is currently offline  Michael J. Mahon
Messages: 1767
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Michael J. Mahon <mjmahon@aol.com> wrote:
> Chris Rupnik <chris_rupnik@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi Michael
>> Are you referring to this program? Thats what the youtube video output is of
>>
>> C050 C053 C054 C057 N 265:FF N 266<265.BFFEM 266<265.BFFEV 265:0 N
>> 266<265.BFFEM 266<265.BFFEV 34:14 (Return)
>>
>> However - if you have another program in mind, i would be very happy to try it!
>>
>> Chris
>
> Yes, that's the kind of test I had in mind. It isn't very good at finding
> intermittent errors, but it should easily locate a hard-failed chip. It
> does not catch address errors.
>
> This test checks all bits for their ability to store 1 or 0. Since each
> memory chip stored one bit of all bytes (except for machines with less than
> eight RAM chips), modifying the test value can localize the bad bit. Try
> 1,2,4,8,16,32,64,128 in place of the $FF at $265.
>
> If only one or two fail, then the chips corresponding to the failing bit
> pattern(s) are the problem. If all fail, I'd be inclined to suspect some
> other issue, like a failing bit in a data tranceiver (unlikely since so
> much works) or in an address latch.
>
> Good luck!
>
> -Michael

Slipped into decimal there!

01,02,04,08,10,20,40,80

-michael

>
>> On Sunday, December 31, 2017 at 12:37:44 AM UTC-5, Michael J. Mahon wrote:
>>> <frank_o_rama@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I would fix the RAM first. No sense spending time upgrading a machine
>>>> which has other problems. (Unless the later ROM self-test can also test
>>>> the MMU, which might be your problem--not sure)
>>>>
>>>> You have a lot of addresses showing with errors, most of which where a
>>>> disk program would load itself into. could be multiple RAM chips, or an
>>>> address multiplexer or the MMU that has gone bad. frequently fried RAM is
>>>> power supply related, too, so I would check your voltages off the 'brick'.
>>>>
>>>> Another check would be to take a location that's showing bad and try
>>>> POKEing $00 and $FF to it, and then PEEKing it back. Then you can narrow
>>>> it down to what bits (and hence chips) are not changing. The PEEK will be
>>>> different than the POKE. Each of the 8 RAM chips holds one of those bits.
>>>>
>>>> Be ESD-safe once you get the case apart. You have the early IIc so at
>>>> least the chips are probably socketed. Can just 'shotgun repair' them all
>>>> with these from Jameco which I think are compatible.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.jameco.com/z/4164-150-Major-Brands-64KX1-DIP-16- DRAM-150NS_41662.html
>>>>
>>>> Frank
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thursday, December 28, 2017 at 5:13:11 PM UTC-8, Chris Rupnik wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Tried to boot the MECC diagnostic disk fails (known good disk boots
>>>> >> fine on iigs) . Cannot successfully load ADTpro to transfer serially.
>>>> >> Looks like machine is in trouble!
>>>> >
>>>> > Can someone who has performed the IIC rom upgrade contact me offline ? I
>>>> > am contemplating next steps and need to discuss please
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Note that a single bad RAM chip will produce errors *everywhere*.
>>>
>>> A simple type-in diagnostic can easily locate a hard bit failure.
>
>



--
-michael - NadaNet 3.1 and AppleCrate II: http://michaeljmahon.com
Re: Apple IIc memory test [message #359940 is a reply to message #359901] Tue, 02 January 2018 14:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Chris Rupnik

It appears that no matter what value i put for 265:01 all the way to 265:80 - i receive a long list of text memory addresses on the bottom left hand side of the screen.

I will proceed to order the newer rom 0 to replace my 255 - and hopefully the diagnostics will be able to give me some guidance on what to attack next.

Thanks for your advice so far! Happy 2018!
Re: Apple IIc memory test [message #379944 is a reply to message #359940] Tue, 22 January 2019 08:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Chris Rupnik

Who doesn’t like a happy ending!

Purchased the necessary replacement memory chips from Jameson and sat down for repair

Originally the updated rom reported error

RAM 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0

And we replaced the ram chip third from bottom. Then reran the self test and then continued

RAM 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0

Replaced this ram chip 5th from bottom and reran the self test

*RAM 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0

Spent a bit of time checking our work as this seemed to indicate the chip we just put in was bad. However notice the * before ram indicates this is aux ram that failed. The position just happen to be the same. We then replaced this ram chip

And then the self test would cycle through all it’s tests without any memory errors!

I booted the machine and all the occasional screen artifacts had cleared.

One more repaired Apple iic is back in service
Re: Apple IIc memory test [message #379977 is a reply to message #379944] Tue, 22 January 2019 21:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: frank_o_rama

nice one. glad to hear it worked out.
f
Re: Apple IIc memory test [message #380050 is a reply to message #379944] Thu, 24 January 2019 12:04 Go to previous message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Anthony Adverse

On Wednesday, January 23, 2019 at 12:44:39 AM UTC+11, Chris Rupnik wrote:
> Who doesn’t like a happy ending!
>
> Purchased the necessary replacement memory chips from Jameson and sat down for repair
>
> Originally the updated rom reported error
>
> RAM 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0
>
> And we replaced the ram chip third from bottom. Then reran the self test and then continued
>
> RAM 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0
>
> Replaced this ram chip 5th from bottom and reran the self test
>
> *RAM 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0
>
> Spent a bit of time checking our work as this seemed to indicate the chip we just put in was bad. However notice the * before ram indicates this is aux ram that failed. The position just happen to be the same. We then replaced this ram chip
>
> And then the self test would cycle through all it’s tests without any memory errors!
>
> I booted the machine and all the occasional screen artifacts had cleared.
>
> One more repaired Apple iic is back in service

Good work!
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