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SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #106 [message #8114] Wed, 01 August 2012 01:49
Originally posted by: utzoo!decvax!ucbvax!sf-lovers
Article-I.D.: ucbvax.350
Posted: Wed Dec 15 14:56:30 1982
Received: Sun Dec 19 09:41:09 1982

>From SFL@SRI-CSL  Mon Dec 13 13:00:04 1982

SF-LOVERS Digest        Wednesday, 15 Dec 1982    Volume 6 : Issue 106

Today's Topics:
    Themes  - shrinking, sex changes
    Books   - some to avoid
    Records - Dr. Demento
    T.V.    - Star Trek
    Movies  - SW/TESB/ROTJ

Date: 10 Dec 82 15:17:07 EST  (Fri)
From: Craig Stanfill 
Subject: Shrinking

The list of shrinking people seems to be quite complete, except for
the POOF gun in "Babes in Toyland."  Not quite Science Fiction, but
neither are many of the examples collected so far.


Date: 11 Dec 82 9:06:36-PST (Sat)
From: decvax!yale-com!doehring at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: Shrinking

It was the Gray Mouser that shrunk so that he could go into the
rat city, not Fafhrd, who was off with his 'ghoul' friend at the
time ( At least I think this is in Swords of Lankmar, it has been
a while since I read that one, ask me about the others though...).

                                    the martian


Date: 12 Dec 1982 0013-EST
From: Joseph M. Newcomer 
Subject: Books to avoid

I recently got Harry Harrison's "Planet of No Return" and Poul
Anderson's "Starship" in the "Jim Baen presents..." paperback
editions.  A warning:  if spelling errors bother you, avoid these two
books.  They are disasters.  I doubt that they ever went through a
proofreeding process at all.  Besides, Planet Of No Return is not even
a particularly good story; even if you don't mind spelling errors, you
probably mind cardboard characters miming their way through cardboard
situations.  I'd call it a bad juvenile at best.


Date: 11 Dec 82 17:40:48-EST (Sat)
From: J C Patilla 
Subject: Sex changes, Dr. Demento

On the subject of sex changes in SF, back in my dim teen years, a
magazine for the teenie-bopper set had a science-fiction writing
contest and as I recall Asimov and maybe Ellison were two of the
judges.  They and several other authors provided theme elements which
had to be woven into a decent story (there were several to chose
from).  One of the "must haves" was the idea of an alien being who was
female on Monday and Thursday, male on Tuesday and Friday and either
neutral gender or something totally weird the other days.  The winning
story had the alien visiting Earth as a student ambassodor living with
a girl and her family and of couse the girl falls in love and gets all
confused.  It's an interesting notion, anyway. Does any one else
recall this contest ?

For Dr. Demento fans - the good Doctor has just released another album
- "Demento's Mementos", available from Jem Records.  It includes such 
someday classics as "Swedish Western", "My Wife Left Town with a
Banana" and "I Get Weird".




Date: 11 Dec 82 08:24:39 EST  (Sat)
From: John R Bane 
Subject: Luke's mechanical hand

        I hereby predict that sometime during a climactic battle in
RotJ, Darth Vader will take control of Luke's mechanical hand and
attack him with it (shades of Dr. Strangelove!).


Date: 11 Dec 1982 1608-CST
Subject: Luke's mechanical hand

In reference to Dick King's message -- Yoda says there is force
between all matter, animate and inanimate.  Thus Luke is able to lift
rocks and R2D2.  So the new hand shouldn't interfere with the force
(it may be stronger than the old hand, however....)



Date: 10 Dec 82 12:46:28 EST  (Fri)
From: Fred Blonder 
Subject: Re:  RotJ

    From: CAIN@MIT-AI

    Why shouldn't Obi be corporeal? ROTJ chronolgically comes
    BEFORE Star Wars (or A New Hope, as you like), and thus has not
    yet been killed.

          Jonathan Levine

Nope. ``A New Hope'' is episode #4, ``The Empire Strikes Back'' is
episode #5 and ``Revenge of the Jedi'' is episode #6. The episodes
released after #6 are to be #'s 1, 2, 3, 7, 8 then 9.


Date: 11 Dec 82 15:50:52-EST (Sat)
From: the soapbox of Gene Spafford 
Subject: Luke's Failure in the Cave

Well, if I apply a little deduction based on my knowledge of Zen and
what I've seen in the movies, I'd say that Luke failed in a couple of

Failure #1 was his taking his weapons into the cave with him.  A
proper Jedi would be one who realizes that the power comes from within
himself, and that mastery comes from using the Force (something 
associated with living matter) and not using some lifeless device.  A
number of the martial arts disdain the use of weapons for the same 
general reason.  If one believes in the Force, one does not need a 
weapon for you *are* the weapon.

Failure #2 was that Luke attacked first.  Again, most martial arts 
(the ones that are firmly rooted in Zen and not Westernized sport
versions) seem to stress defense rather than offense.  (If you've had
training in one of these, please don't engage me in a discussion of
"offense as defense" and so on, I know about it.)  Luke gave in to
anger and to fear and attacked.  In fact, the image of Darth was
symbolically a manifestation of Luke's fears of the evil place.

Failure #3 was that Luke failed to listen to Yoda.  Yoda said that he 
would not need weapons, but Luke did not listen.  When Yoda was 
reminding Luke of his "failure" in the cave, it was because Luke was
once again ignoring Yoda's advice.

I'm not sure how many philosophers are out there, but I'd like to
suggest that the "Force" is more derived from the Tao than from Zen.
It is something that one should follow, it guides from within and
without.  Perhaps even more significant, Luke is able to sense a
"wrongness" in the Force, and Yoda talks of strong evil.  No one
senses "good," however.  I would submit that straying from the Force
(Way, Tao) is a definite wrong, but following the proper way simply
results in a sort of null-state (natural state) that cannot be
detected.  That's why Luke doesn't detect Yoda as being the master
teacher, and why Darth would not notice a true master if he was
standing next to one (Bobba Fett?).  That's another reason why Yoda
says not to use the Force in anger --- someone using the Force can be
detected while someone not using it is "invisible."  Far better to let
your opponents underestimate you and then let their attack be their 
own undoing.

Think you that Vader or Luke really need light sabers?  Vader has
killed with the Force yet not touched his victims. Vader has also
flung large objects about with the force.  Luke has learned to move
himself and objects, and Yoda can move an entire spaceship.  Vader can
kill with the dark side of the Force because he causes panic and fear
in his victims and they feed the very force (Force) that kills them.
>From a philosophical point of view, I'd bet that the climactic battle
does not have the Jedi/Luke/Other winning by their mastery of any
weapon.  Instead, Darth will defeat himself by making a mistake, or he
and the emperor will destroy each other in a excessive display of bad

Now for a quiz:  1) Is there deep meaning hidden in the story or are
we creating
   profound interpretations from fluff?  2) Does anyone really doubt
that Good triumphs, Evil gets its
   justly earned defeat, and Lucasfilms makes another bundle?  3)
Darth Vader is really:
     a) Luke's father b) Luke's mother
     c) James Watt d) Judge Crater
     e) none of the above 4) The other hope is Bob Hope who is
entertaining the rebel troops
   when his ship is captured by Darth. Bob's jokes just slay Darth.  
5) Obi Wan got that first name growing up in Mayberry, RFD.
   (think about it) 6) Darth was going to lobotomize Han, but felt it
was beneath him.
   Even the great Vader would not stupe Solo.

Force sure, force sure, Gene


Date: 9 Dec 82 21:10:23-EST (Thu)
From: J C Patilla 

Today's Washington Post revealed that Lucasfilms may be changing the
name of the new movie to "The RETURN of the Jedi", since *somehow*
they got the idea that nice Jedis don't seek revenge. (there's a
Balrog in the woodpile, Goodgulf !)

A correction: Leibowitz may well be Yiddish, but Springsteen is Dutch
(and the Boss is Catholic, too).

remain in light,



Date: 11 Dec 82 15:13:26-PST (Sat)
From: decvax!duke!mcnc!cjp at Ucb-C70
Subject: Luke's failure / revenge

I have a feeling something is being missed, in reference to Luke's
failure in the cave.  Although the apparition Luke saw might have been
Luke's dark side, it might also have been a foreshadowing of a
confrontation to come.  Then, you ask, why does Luke see himself when
the mask comes off Vader's head?  Maybe because Vader really looks (or
looked, at the time Vader maybe visited the same cave) a lot like
Luke?  A clone or father perhaps?  This was my reaction anyway.  My
guess is that Luke also fails to become a Jedi, but by the same token
becomes the instrument of the Jedi's revenge (remember, "Jedi" can be
a *plural*).
        Charles J. Poirier (duke!mcnc!cjp)


Date: 9 Dec 82 8:01:31-PST (Thu)
From: decvax!decwrl!sun!megatest!fortune!wdl1!jrb at Ucb-C70
Subject: Re: Stardates and ROTJ

Actually, RotJ will be episode 6 and will therefore take place after
TESB.  The next set of 3 will be episodes 1-3 and the final set will
be episodes 7-9.

                                John R Blaker


Date: 12 Dec 1982 0326-PST
From: Henry W. Miller 
Subject: SW time frames

        Booze-Swatz.  ROTJ does NOT, repeat DOES NOT take place prior
to ANH and TESB.  It is the sequel to this second trilogy of


        Has anybody heard the rumor that I have, which is that Lucas
is ready to give up the rights to the serial after ROTJ is finished?


Date: 10 Dec 82 13:41:45-PST (Fri)
From: menlo70!sytek!blk at Ucb-C70
Subject: How mysterious is the OTHER?

Seems to me that no one has mentioned one point I think significant" 
Remember the scene - Two of the universe's wisest beings are
discussing the future of their cause, and in five seconds the two
thoroughly disagree!  Whoever (or whatever - 'hope' may not be a
person) this OTHER may be, there is enough ambiguity that this may be
no hope at all!  Surely this rules out Leia and Han ... and probably
this mercenary, too.  In fact, any living good sort with the power is
an obvious hope; you don't need to be a Jedi Master to realize that!  
Because of all this, I say we have to look in shadows; either Darth or
an unborn child.  Only thing is, both of these possibilities make a
sloppy story line.  How about the hope being simply playing Darth
against the Emperor?  Too dull?


Date: 10 Dec 82 8:16:16-PST (Fri)
From: harpo!duke!unc!tim at Ucb-C70
Subject: No more others, please!

I realize that a lot of you really love the Star Wars movies, and that
your enthusiasm makes it difficult to avoid this incredibly prolonged
and pointless speculation on the content of the third movie.  
Nonetheless, there are some of us who are more than willing to wait, 
and resent the group being monopolized by this sort of discussion.  
(My 'n' key is beginning to wear out.) Unless you have something
really new to say, keep it to yourself, OK? Alternately, how about a
net.starwars group that the rest of us can ignore without having to
reject each individual article?
                                                        Tim Maroney


Date: 11 Dec 82 11:48:59-PST (Sat)
From: decvax!yale-com!cutler at Ucb-C70
Subject: Clones and others

Clones in ROTJ?  Perhaps, but not in as global or sophisticated a way
as some people on this net have been suggesting.  Afterall, that's a
lot to explain in a two hour film that is supposed to be the finale of
a three part series that has a lot of questions to answer already.

                                        Ben Cutler


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