| New Year's Computer Stories... [message #418597] |
Sat, 31 December 2022 23:35  |
Charles Richmond
Messages: 2754
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Happy New Year!!!
It seems only right that readers of <a.f.c.> should post (or re-post)
computer screw-ups that involve the change to a new year, or in some way
are related to leap year or century or millennium changes or etc. etc.
Vaguely I seem to recall something about a Microsoft music player
hanging up (stopped working) after 1000 days because of a counter
wrapping around to zeroes.
Maybe we can also include stories involving a failure to "feed the
watchdog timer" quickly enough.
Two digit to four digit date conversion stories should be included...
don't you think???
--
Charles Richmond
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com
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| Re: New Year's Computer Stories... [message #418599 is a reply to message #418597] |
Sun, 01 January 2023 04:46  |
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Originally posted by: Marco Moock
Am 31.12.2022 um 22:35:16 Uhr schrieb Charles Richmond:
> It seems only right that readers of <a.f.c.> should post (or re-post)
> computer screw-ups that involve the change to a new year, or in some
> way are related to leap year or century or millennium changes or etc.
> etc.
I haven't experienced the millenium change, I was born in 2001,
although I have a fax machine/printer/copier that can only use 2-digit
year, but it doesn't create problems if It set it to 22. I haven't used
it in 2023, so I don't know if it still works with the year 23. :-)
> Vaguely I seem to recall something about a Microsoft music player
> hanging up (stopped working) after 1000 days because of a counter
> wrapping around to zeroes.
Was that the "Media Player" (not WMP) or the later WMP?
I have read a similar story about Win 9x with about 40 days.
I have a network card (Broadcom PCI) that stopped working after a
certain amount of time or transferred data. If anybody is interested, I
can find out more.
The software "bmon" crashes after a certain amount of transmitted data
with a segfault. I assume a counter overflow, but I need to examine
that.
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| Re: New Year's Computer Stories... [message #418600 is a reply to message #418597] |
Sun, 01 January 2023 05:11 |
Harry Vaderchi
Messages: 719
Registered: July 2012
Karma: 0
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On Sat, 31 Dec 2022 22:35:16 -0600
Charles Richmond <codescott@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
> Happy New Year!!!
>
> It seems only right that readers of <a.f.c.> should post (or re-post)
> computer screw-ups that involve the change to a new year, or in some way
> are related to leap year or century or millennium changes or etc. etc.
>
Seems it was 23 years ago. Gosh.
> Vaguely I seem to recall something about a Microsoft music player
> hanging up (stopped working) after 1000 days because of a counter
> wrapping around to zeroes.
>
> Maybe we can also include stories involving a failure to "feed the
> watchdog timer" quickly enough.
>
> Two digit to four digit date conversion stories should be included...
> don't you think???
>
--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.
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| New Year's Computer Stories... [message #418604 is a reply to message #418599] |
Sun, 01 January 2023 04:41 |
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Originally posted by: Martin Kukac
Hello everyone!
01 Jan 23 10:46, you wrote:
MM> I have read a similar story about Win 9x with about 40 days.
I used an old PC to act as a WiFi client and router in my parents house
around 2004 and as it was an old Pentium-class machine and Linux didn't
support my PCI WiFi card at first, I had Windows 98 running there. I can
confirm, that the memory management bug, that makes the system go out of
free RAM after about 40 days, was there. I was living about 200 km away
from my parents back then as I was on the university, and my mum had to go
every month to the attic and reset the machine.
I was really glad when ndiswrapper started to work with that PCI card and I
could migrate the machine to Linux :)
Martin
.... All bugs encountered until reboot are features.
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| RE: New Year's Computer Stories... [message #418605 is a reply to message #418604] |
Sun, 01 January 2023 12:09 |
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Originally posted by: TheAppleFox
On Sun Jan 1 11:41:54 2023 Martin Kukac wrote:
>
>
> Hello everyone!
>
> 01 Jan 23 10:46, you wrote:
>
> MM> I have read a similar story about Win 9x with about 40 days.
>
> I used an old PC to act as a WiFi client and router in my parents house
> around 2004 and as it was an old Pentium-class machine and Linux didn't
> support my PCI WiFi card at first, I had Windows 98 running there. I can
> confirm, that the memory management bug, that makes the system go out of
> free RAM after about 40 days, was there. I was living about 200 km away
> from my parents back then as I was on the university, and my mum had to go
> every month to the attic and reset the machine.
>
> I was really glad when ndiswrapper started to work with that PCI card and I
> could migrate the machine to Linux :)
>
> Martin
>
>
> ... All bugs encountered until reboot are features.
Hi everybody, happy new year
I'm new here
:-) Can't believe Usenet still exists in 2023
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| Re: New Year's Computer Stories... [message #418606 is a reply to message #418597] |
Sun, 01 January 2023 12:58 |
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Originally posted by: drb
> It seems only right that readers of <a.f.c.> should post (or re-post)
> computer screw-ups that involve the change to a new year, or in some way
> are related to leap year or century or millennium changes or etc. etc.
I seem to recall a linux kernel bug involving a mis-handled leap second,
one NYE a decade+ back. Locked up the affected machines. One for which
I was responsible was ~80 miles away.
De
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| RE: Re: New Year's Computer Stories... [message #418607 is a reply to message #418606] |
Sun, 01 January 2023 13:03 |
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Originally posted by: TheAppleFox
On Sun Jan 1 17:58:04 2023 drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) wrote:
>> It seems only right that readers of <a.f.c.> should post (or re-post)
>> computer screw-ups that involve the change to a new year, or in some way
>> are related to leap year or century or millennium changes or etc. etc.
>
> I seem to recall a linux kernel bug involving a mis-handled leap second,
> one NYE a decade+ back. Locked up the affected machines. One for which
> I was responsible was ~80 miles away.
>
> De
Talk about the devil. I recall once installing Gentoo, I finish compiling my manually compiled vmlinuz 9.6 MB, I had integrated everything into one big monolithical file (I wanted it to run as fast as possible) with NO initramfs.
Forgot to include the NVidia SATA device driver, spent the next 2 hours figuring out why the kernel panicked.
make menuconfig - fail!
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| Re: New Year's Computer Stories... [message #418612 is a reply to message #418597] |
Mon, 02 January 2023 15:49 |
Rich Alderson
Messages: 489
Registered: August 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Charles Richmond <codescott@aquaporin4.com> writes:
> Happy New Year!!!
> It seems only right that readers of <a.f.c.> should post (or re-post)
> computer screw-ups that involve the change to a new year, or in some way
> are related to leap year or century or millennium changes or etc. etc.
> Vaguely I seem to recall something about a Microsoft music player
> hanging up (stopped working) after 1000 days because of a counter
> wrapping around to zeroes.
> Maybe we can also include stories involving a failure to "feed the
> watchdog timer" quickly enough.
> Two digit to four digit date conversion stories should be included...
> don't you think???
We used to set the date on some of the systems at Living Computers: Museum+Labs
to 28 years earlier because there was no other way to get around the Y2K issue
on ancient operating systems. We had a note that after 31 December 2027 the
admins for those systems would need to subtract 56 from the date.
Sadly, we don't need to concern ourselves with that any longer.
--
Rich Alderson news@alderson.users.panix.com
Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
--Galen
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| Re: New Year's Computer Stories... [message #418614 is a reply to message #418605] |
Mon, 02 January 2023 20:22 |
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Originally posted by: Leonard Blaisdell
On 2023-01-01, TheAppleFox <theapplefox@the.apple.fox> wrote:
> Hi everybody, happy new year
> I'm new here
> :-) Can't believe Usenet still exists in 2023
Happy New Year! Most of us are waiting to turn off the lights and lock
the door. There's very little Apple discussion in this group, but I've
found the group fascinating for years. Since I'm an Apple guy, I post
here rarely. :)
Put on your armor and have fun on Usenet! It's completely uncensored.
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| Re: New Year's Computer Stories... [message #418619 is a reply to message #418614] |
Tue, 03 January 2023 15:00 |
Harry Vaderchi
Messages: 719
Registered: July 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 3 Jan 2023 01:22:54 GMT
Leonard Blaisdell <leoblaisdell@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 2023-01-01, TheAppleFox <theapplefox@the.apple.fox> wrote:
>
>> Hi everybody, happy new year
>> I'm new here
>> :-) Can't believe Usenet still exists in 2023
>
> Happy New Year! Most of us are waiting to turn off the lights and lock
> the door. There's very little Apple discussion in this group, but I've
> found the group fascinating for years. Since I'm an Apple guy, I post
> here rarely. :)
> Put on your armor and have fun on Usenet! It's completely uncensored.
Apple? that's just for *users*!
HNY likewise.
--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.
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| Re: New Year's Computer Stories... [message #418633 is a reply to message #418597] |
Sat, 07 January 2023 04:52 |
Jorgen Grahn
Messages: 606
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Sun, 2023-01-01, Charles Richmond wrote:
> Happy New Year!!!
>
> It seems only right that readers of <a.f.c.> should post (or re-post)
> computer screw-ups that involve the change to a new year, or in some way
> are related to leap year or century or millennium changes or etc. etc.
>
> Vaguely I seem to recall something about a Microsoft music player
> hanging up (stopped working) after 1000 days because of a counter
> wrapping around to zeroes.
>
> Maybe we can also include stories involving a failure to "feed the
> watchdog timer" quickly enough.
>
> Two digit to four digit date conversion stories should be included...
> don't you think???
I don't have one that I can recall. For most of my programming, time
has been either irrelevant or it has been the Unix time_t which
doesn't care. In 1999, my home computers ran Linux and people had
dealt with the Y2K bugs for me.
But recently I've had to use the Qt library's QDateTime[1] type, and
it occurred to me that this must be how people had to work before
someone (in the 1960s?) said "let's stop this nonsense and just count
seconds since some T=0".
A QDateTime is:
- a date
- a time-of-day
- a time zone
and it's easy to get wrong. Not so much at New Year, but when you
start messing with the time zone, you have to remember which function
preserves the time while shifting the time zone, and which function
instead preserves the date and time-of-day.
I suppose this type is a good fit when you need to format or parse a
time string, or need to do calculations on calendar time ("two days
ago") but the Qt framework encourages using it all the time[2], as a
replacement for time_t, struct timeval and friends.
/Jorgen
[1] https://doc.qt.io/qt-6/qdatetime.html
[2] Pun intended.
--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
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| Re: New Year's Computer Stories... [message #418634 is a reply to message #418597] |
Sat, 07 January 2023 05:07 |
Jorgen Grahn
Messages: 606
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Sun, 2023-01-01, Charles Richmond wrote:
> Happy New Year!!!
>
> It seems only right that readers of <a.f.c.> should post (or re-post)
> computer screw-ups that involve the change to a new year, or in some way
> are related to leap year or century or millennium changes or etc. etc.
>
> Vaguely I seem to recall something about a Microsoft music player
> hanging up (stopped working) after 1000 days because of a counter
> wrapping around to zeroes.
>
> Maybe we can also include stories involving a failure to "feed the
> watchdog timer" quickly enough.
>
> Two digit to four digit date conversion stories should be included...
> don't you think???
Not really computer-related, but before 2000 I tended to write down
dates as yy-mm-hh or yymmhh when I needed to date a letter or some
notes I'd taken on paper. So for example I'd write "990430".
For a few years /after/ 2000 I wrote year-1900 instead: "100-04-30",
"101-04-30" and so on. It didn't catch on, and I think I stopped
doing it in 2003 or so. I guess I decided I didn't need my own
personal date format.
/Jorgen
--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
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| Re: New Year's Computer Stories... [message #418635 is a reply to message #418633] |
Sat, 07 January 2023 05:24 |
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 7 Jan 2023 09:52:57 GMT
Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> wrote:
> But recently I've had to use the Qt library's QDateTime[1] type, and
> it occurred to me that this must be how people had to work before
> someone (in the 1960s?) said "let's stop this nonsense and just count
> seconds since some T=0".
Late 60s given that the unix epoch is in 1970 (just).
> A QDateTime is:
> - a date
> - a time-of-day
> - a time zone
>
> and it's easy to get wrong. Not so much at New Year, but when you
It's impossible to get right - places like Ireland and the UK
switch timezone twice a year while most US timezones shift their offset from
UTC twice a year. Then there's the whole business of the missing/duplicated
hour as the clocks go forwards/backwards.
> start messing with the time zone, you have to remember which function
> preserves the time while shifting the time zone, and which function
> instead preserves the date and time-of-day.
Then you cross a DST boundary and all the bugs come to the surface.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
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| Re: New Year's Computer Stories... [message #418636 is a reply to message #418597] |
Sat, 07 January 2023 05:50 |
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Originally posted by: Anders D. Nygaard
Den 01-01-2023 kl. 05:35 skrev Charles Richmond:
> Happy New Year!!!
>
> It seems only right that readers of <a.f.c.> should post (or re-post)
> computer screw-ups that involve the change to a new year, or in some way
> are related to leap year or century or millennium changes or etc. etc.
>
> Vaguely I seem to recall something about a Microsoft music player
> hanging up (stopped working) after 1000 days because of a counter
> wrapping around to zeroes.
>
> Maybe we can also include stories involving a failure to "feed the
> watchdog timer" quickly enough.
>
> Two digit to four digit date conversion stories should be included...
> don't you think???
Not so much a new year's issue, but I recall one system[1] which started
misbehaving increasingly erratically after a certain date.
After much head-scratching, the cause turned out to be that a certain
hard-coded table indexed by year ran out of entries, so the values used
for later years were random garbage.
[1] Name withheld to protect the guilty
/Anders, Denmark
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| Re: New Year's Computer Stories... [message #418637 is a reply to message #418636] |
Sat, 07 January 2023 11:05 |
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Originally posted by: greymaus
On 2023-01-07, Anders D. Nygaard <news2012adn@gmail.com> wrote:
> Den 01-01-2023 kl. 05:35 skrev Charles Richmond:
>> Happy New Year!!!
>>
>> It seems only right that readers of <a.f.c.> should post (or re-post)
>> computer screw-ups that involve the change to a new year, or in some way
>> are related to leap year or century or millennium changes or etc. etc.
>>
>> Vaguely I seem to recall something about a Microsoft music player
>> hanging up (stopped working) after 1000 days because of a counter
>> wrapping around to zeroes.
>>
>> Maybe we can also include stories involving a failure to "feed the
>> watchdog timer" quickly enough.
>>
>> Two digit to four digit date conversion stories should be included...
>> don't you think???
>
> Not so much a new year's issue, but I recall one system[1] which started
> misbehaving increasingly erratically after a certain date.
>
> After much head-scratching, the cause turned out to be that a certain
> hard-coded table indexed by year ran out of entries, so the values used
> for later years were random garbage.
>
> [1] Name withheld to protect the guilty
>
> /Anders, Denmark
I remember something about that as well. Do not publish the name of the
guilty, as he might appear when His name is spoken.
--
greymausg@mail.com
Fe, Fi, Fo, Fum, I smell the stench of an Influencer.
Where is our money gone, Dude?
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| Re: New Year's Computer Stories... [message #418640 is a reply to message #418635] |
Sat, 07 January 2023 19:55 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> On 7 Jan 2023 09:52:57 GMT
> Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> wrote:
>
>> But recently I've had to use the Qt library's QDateTime[1] type, and
>> it occurred to me that this must be how people had to work before
>> someone (in the 1960s?) said "let's stop this nonsense and just count
>> seconds since some T=0".
>
> Late 60s given that the unix epoch is in 1970 (just).
>
>> A QDateTime is:
>> - a date
>> - a time-of-day
>> - a time zone
>>
>> and it's easy to get wrong. Not so much at New Year, but when you
>
> It's impossible to get right - places like Ireland and the UK
> switch timezone twice a year while most US timezones shift their offset from
> UTC twice a year. Then there's the whole business of the missing/duplicated
> hour as the clocks go forwards/backwards.
I think Indiana is, or was, split between two timezones; Arizona doesn’t
observe DST; based on what I saw New Years, it appears Puerto Rico is 1/2
hour ahead of New York,; China is all one timezone, and there’s lots more
of such F*ckishness.
>
>> start messing with the time zone, you have to remember which function
>> preserves the time while shifting the time zone, and which function
>> instead preserves the date and time-of-day.
>
> Then you cross a DST boundary and all the bugs come to the surface.
>
--
Pete
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| Re: New Year's Computer Stories... [message #418652 is a reply to message #418640] |
Sun, 08 January 2023 01:39 |
Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2023-01-08, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>
>> On 7 Jan 2023 09:52:57 GMT
>> Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> wrote:
>>
>>> But recently I've had to use the Qt library's QDateTime[1] type, and
>>> it occurred to me that this must be how people had to work before
>>> someone (in the 1960s?) said "let's stop this nonsense and just count
>>> seconds since some T=0".
>>
>> Late 60s given that the unix epoch is in 1970 (just).
>>
>>> A QDateTime is:
>>> - a date
>>> - a time-of-day
>>> - a time zone
>>>
>>> and it's easy to get wrong. Not so much at New Year, but when you
>>
>> It's impossible to get right - places like Ireland and the UK
>> switch timezone twice a year while most US timezones shift their offset from
>> UTC twice a year. Then there's the whole business of the missing/duplicated
>> hour as the clocks go forwards/backwards.
>
> I think Indiana is, or was, split between two timezones; Arizona doesn’t
> observe DST; based on what I saw New Years, it appears Puerto Rico is 1/2
> hour ahead of New York,; China is all one timezone, and there’s lots more
> of such F*ckishness.
Saskatchewan doesn't observe DST as well. Newfoundland and Labrador are
(is?) half an hour ahead of Halifax.
>>> start messing with the time zone, you have to remember which function
>>> preserves the time while shifting the time zone, and which function
>>> instead preserves the date and time-of-day.
>>
>> Then you cross a DST boundary and all the bugs come to the surface.
I think the best thing would be to eliminate DST entirely. No more
semi-annual clock changes, no subtle bugs, and fewer road accidents
due to people's circadian rhythm being disturbed. Unfortunately,
here on the west coast of North America, most people are pushing
to make DST permanent. So much for the sun being overhead at noon.
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.
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| Re: New Year's Computer Stories... [message #418654 is a reply to message #418652] |
Sun, 08 January 2023 03:46 |
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Sun, 08 Jan 2023 06:39:52 GMT
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> I think the best thing would be to eliminate DST entirely. No more
> semi-annual clock changes, no subtle bugs, and fewer road accidents
> due to people's circadian rhythm being disturbed. Unfortunately,
> here on the west coast of North America, most people are pushing
> to make DST permanent. So much for the sun being overhead at noon.
Go the whole hog and switch to UTC worldwide and accept that people
work, eat, sleep etc. at different times.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
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| Re: New Year's Computer Stories... [message #418655 is a reply to message #418652] |
Sun, 08 January 2023 04:01 |
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Originally posted by: greymaus
On 2023-01-08, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> On 2023-01-08, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 7 Jan 2023 09:52:57 GMT
>>> Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> wrote:
>>>
>>>> But recently I've had to use the Qt library's QDateTime[1] type, and
>>>> it occurred to me that this must be how people had to work before
>>>> someone (in the 1960s?) said "let's stop this nonsense and just count
>>>> seconds since some T=0".
>>>
>>> Late 60s given that the unix epoch is in 1970 (just).
>>>
>>>> A QDateTime is:
>>>> - a date
>>>> - a time-of-day
>>>> - a time zone
>>>>
>>>> and it's easy to get wrong. Not so much at New Year, but when you
>>>
>>> It's impossible to get right - places like Ireland and the UK
>>> switch timezone twice a year while most US timezones shift their offset from
>>> UTC twice a year. Then there's the whole business of the missing/duplicated
>>> hour as the clocks go forwards/backwards.
>>
>> I think Indiana is, or was, split between two timezones; Arizona doesn’t
>> observe DST; based on what I saw New Years, it appears Puerto Rico is 1/2
>> hour ahead of New York,; China is all one timezone, and there’s lots more
>> of such F*ckishness.
>
> Saskatchewan doesn't observe DST as well. Newfoundland and Labrador are
> (is?) half an hour ahead of Halifax.
>
>>>> start messing with the time zone, you have to remember which function
>>>> preserves the time while shifting the time zone, and which function
>>>> instead preserves the date and time-of-day.
>>>
>>> Then you cross a DST boundary and all the bugs come to the surface.
>
> I think the best thing would be to eliminate DST entirely. No more
> semi-annual clock changes, no subtle bugs, and fewer road accidents
> due to people's circadian rhythm being disturbed. Unfortunately,
> here on the west coast of North America, most people are pushing
> to make DST permanent. So much for the sun being overhead at noon.
>
But, But, that would mean making a decision
--
greymausg@mail.com
Fe, Fi, Fo, Fum, I smell the stench of an Influencer.
Where is our money gone, Dude?
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| Re: New Year's Computer Stories... [message #418659 is a reply to message #418654] |
Sun, 08 January 2023 06:43 |
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Originally posted by: greymaus
On 2023-01-08, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 08 Jan 2023 06:39:52 GMT
> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>
>> I think the best thing would be to eliminate DST entirely. No more
>> semi-annual clock changes, no subtle bugs, and fewer road accidents
>> due to people's circadian rhythm being disturbed. Unfortunately,
>> here on the west coast of North America, most people are pushing
>> to make DST permanent. So much for the sun being overhead at noon.
>
> Go the whole hog and switch to UTC worldwide and accept that people
> work, eat, sleep etc. at different times.
>
Its bad enough having relatives mailing photos from the beach in
Australia at Christmas without that. (forgetting people swimming at the
40ft in Dublin). remember yesterday was Christmas day in Russia.
--
greymausg@mail.com
Fe, Fi, Fo, Fum, I smell the stench of an Influencer.
Where is our money gone, Dude?
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| Re: New Year's Computer Stories... [message #418660 is a reply to message #418654] |
Sun, 08 January 2023 06:34 |
Andreas Eder
Messages: 128
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On So 08 Jan 2023 at 08:46, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 08 Jan 2023 06:39:52 GMT
> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>
>> I think the best thing would be to eliminate DST entirely. No more
>> semi-annual clock changes, no subtle bugs, and fewer road accidents
>> due to people's circadian rhythm being disturbed. Unfortunately,
>> here on the west coast of North America, most people are pushing
>> to make DST permanent. So much for the sun being overhead at noon.
>
> Go the whole hog and switch to UTC worldwide and accept that people
> work, eat, sleep etc. at different times.
Yes, but that would be rational - so no chance.
'Andreas
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| Re: New Year's Computer Stories... [message #418662 is a reply to message #418640] |
Sun, 08 January 2023 10:16 |
D.J.
Messages: 821
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Sat, 7 Jan 2023 17:55:55 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>> On 7 Jan 2023 09:52:57 GMT
>> Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> wrote:
>>
>>> But recently I've had to use the Qt library's QDateTime[1] type, and
>>> it occurred to me that this must be how people had to work before
>>> someone (in the 1960s?) said "let's stop this nonsense and just count
>>> seconds since some T=0".
>>
>> Late 60s given that the unix epoch is in 1970 (just).
>>
>>> A QDateTime is:
>>> - a date
>>> - a time-of-day
>>> - a time zone
>>>
>>> and it's easy to get wrong. Not so much at New Year, but when you
>>
>> It's impossible to get right - places like Ireland and the UK
>> switch timezone twice a year while most US timezones shift their offset from
>> UTC twice a year. Then there's the whole business of the missing/duplicated
>> hour as the clocks go forwards/backwards.
>
> I think Indiana is, or was, split between two timezones; Arizona doesnt
> observe DST; based on what I saw New Years, it appears Puerto Rico is 1/2
> hour ahead of New York,; China is all one timezone, and theres lots more
> of such F*ckishness.
I was looking online at a time zone map a few years ago, and smaller
countries around Pakistan are a half hour ahead of the surrounding
countries. seems silly to me.
Can't find the one I saw years ago, but this page mentions some
countries are 30 and 45 minutes ahead of others nearby. Also
explanations of DST, etc.
https://www.timeanddate.com/time/current-number-time-zones.h tml
--
Jim
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| Re: New Year's Computer Stories... [message #418663 is a reply to message #418655] |
Sun, 08 January 2023 11:17 |
Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2023-01-08, greymaus <greymaus@dmaus.org> wrote:
> On 2023-01-08, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>
>> I think the best thing would be to eliminate DST entirely. No more
>> semi-annual clock changes, no subtle bugs, and fewer road accidents
>> due to people's circadian rhythm being disturbed. Unfortunately,
>> here on the west coast of North America, most people are pushing
>> to make DST permanent. So much for the sun being overhead at noon.
>
> But, But, that would mean making a decision
That's the frustrating part - the governments of British Columbia,
Washington, Oregon, and California are considering making such a
decision. I mentioned it to a few people at the office and a lot
of them are in favour. They'd rather have a dark morning, I guess.
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.
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| Re: New Year's Computer Stories... [message #418664 is a reply to message #418654] |
Sun, 08 January 2023 11:17 |
Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2023-01-08, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 08 Jan 2023 06:39:52 GMT
> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>
>> I think the best thing would be to eliminate DST entirely. No more
>> semi-annual clock changes, no subtle bugs, and fewer road accidents
>> due to people's circadian rhythm being disturbed. Unfortunately,
>> here on the west coast of North America, most people are pushing
>> to make DST permanent. So much for the sun being overhead at noon.
>
> Go the whole hog and switch to UTC worldwide and accept that people
> work, eat, sleep etc. at different times.
Aviation already uses UTC, although anything that crosses time zones
would benefit.
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.
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| Re: New Year's Computer Stories... [message #418665 is a reply to message #418663] |
Sun, 08 January 2023 12:15 |
scott
Messages: 4237
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
> On 2023-01-08, greymaus <greymaus@dmaus.org> wrote:
>
>> On 2023-01-08, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> I think the best thing would be to eliminate DST entirely. No more
>>> semi-annual clock changes, no subtle bugs, and fewer road accidents
>>> due to people's circadian rhythm being disturbed. Unfortunately,
>>> here on the west coast of North America, most people are pushing
>>> to make DST permanent. So much for the sun being overhead at noon.
>>
>> But, But, that would mean making a decision
>
> That's the frustrating part - the governments of British Columbia,
> Washington, Oregon, and California are considering making such a
> decision. I mentioned it to a few people at the office and a lot
> of them are in favour. They'd rather have a dark morning, I guess.
California has already _made_ such a decision. They're just waiting
on the US congress to make it possible.
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| Re: New Year's Computer Stories... [message #418666 is a reply to message #418664] |
Sun, 08 January 2023 12:15 |
scott
Messages: 4237
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
> On 2023-01-08, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 08 Jan 2023 06:39:52 GMT
>> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> I think the best thing would be to eliminate DST entirely. No more
>>> semi-annual clock changes, no subtle bugs, and fewer road accidents
>>> due to people's circadian rhythm being disturbed. Unfortunately,
>>> here on the west coast of North America, most people are pushing
>>> to make DST permanent. So much for the sun being overhead at noon.
>>
>> Go the whole hog and switch to UTC worldwide and accept that people
>> work, eat, sleep etc. at different times.
>
> Aviation already uses UTC, although anything that crosses time zones
> would benefit.
IIRC, the railroads are the reason we have official timezones (and
a consistent national view of time) today.
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| Re: New Year's Computer Stories... [message #418667 is a reply to message #418666] |
Sun, 08 January 2023 12:46 |
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Originally posted by: Vir Campestris
On 08/01/2023 17:15, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>> On 2023-01-08, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 08 Jan 2023 06:39:52 GMT
>>> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think the best thing would be to eliminate DST entirely. No more
>>>> semi-annual clock changes, no subtle bugs, and fewer road accidents
>>>> due to people's circadian rhythm being disturbed. Unfortunately,
>>>> here on the west coast of North America, most people are pushing
>>>> to make DST permanent. So much for the sun being overhead at noon.
>>>
>>> Go the whole hog and switch to UTC worldwide and accept that people
>>> work, eat, sleep etc. at different times.
>>
>> Aviation already uses UTC, although anything that crosses time zones
>> would benefit.
>
> IIRC, the railroads are the reason we have official timezones (and
> a consistent national view of time) today.
My understanding is it was the railways. Pre-railway every town in the
UK had its own time.
It must have been fun for seamen who used the difference between local
time and clock time to work out how far west they were.
Andy
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| Re: New Year's Computer Stories... [message #418668 is a reply to message #418663] |
Sun, 08 January 2023 12:50 |
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Originally posted by: greymaus
On 2023-01-08, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> On 2023-01-08, greymaus <greymaus@dmaus.org> wrote:
>
>> On 2023-01-08, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> I think the best thing would be to eliminate DST entirely. No more
>>> semi-annual clock changes, no subtle bugs, and fewer road accidents
>>> due to people's circadian rhythm being disturbed. Unfortunately,
>>> here on the west coast of North America, most people are pushing
>>> to make DST permanent. So much for the sun being overhead at noon.
>>
>> But, But, that would mean making a decision
>
> That's the frustrating part - the governments of British Columbia,
> Washington, Oregon, and California are considering making such a
> decision. I mentioned it to a few people at the office and a lot
> of them are in favour. They'd rather have a dark morning, I guess.
>
The whole thing was started, as far as I know, during WWI[1], so workers
could work their garden plots after coming home from the factories.
[1] Along with other bad things.
--
greymausg@mail.com
Fe, Fi, Fo, Fum, I smell the stench of an Influencer.
Where is our money gone, Dude?
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| Re: New Year's Computer Stories... [message #418669 is a reply to message #418665] |
Sun, 08 January 2023 12:52 |
D.J.
Messages: 821
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Sun, 08 Jan 2023 17:15:01 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:
> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>> On 2023-01-08, greymaus <greymaus@dmaus.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2023-01-08, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think the best thing would be to eliminate DST entirely. No more
>>>> semi-annual clock changes, no subtle bugs, and fewer road accidents
>>>> due to people's circadian rhythm being disturbed. Unfortunately,
>>>> here on the west coast of North America, most people are pushing
>>>> to make DST permanent. So much for the sun being overhead at noon.
>>>
>>> But, But, that would mean making a decision
>>
>> That's the frustrating part - the governments of British Columbia,
>> Washington, Oregon, and California are considering making such a
>> decision. I mentioned it to a few people at the office and a lot
>> of them are in favour. They'd rather have a dark morning, I guess.
>
> California has already _made_ such a decision. They're just waiting
> on the US congress to make it possible.
Someone will always g to school or work in the dark, or come hme in
the dark, regardeless of what is done with the clocks.
Its the US Naval Observatory i the US that decides.
--
Jim
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| Re: New Year's Computer Stories... [message #418670 is a reply to message #418666] |
Sun, 08 January 2023 12:53 |
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Originally posted by: greymaus
On 2023-01-08, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>> On 2023-01-08, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 08 Jan 2023 06:39:52 GMT
>>> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think the best thing would be to eliminate DST entirely. No more
>>>> semi-annual clock changes, no subtle bugs, and fewer road accidents
>>>> due to people's circadian rhythm being disturbed. Unfortunately,
>>>> here on the west coast of North America, most people are pushing
>>>> to make DST permanent. So much for the sun being overhead at noon.
>>>
>>> Go the whole hog and switch to UTC worldwide and accept that people
>>> work, eat, sleep etc. at different times.
>>
>> Aviation already uses UTC, although anything that crosses time zones
>> would benefit.
>
> IIRC, the railroads are the reason we have official timezones (and
> a consistent national view of time) today.
+
Canals didn't need them, just float along, open a barrel, fill up again
with canal water from the seven springs, and the best stout in Europe.
--
greymausg@mail.com
Fe, Fi, Fo, Fum, I smell the stench of an Influencer.
Where is our money gone, Dude?
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| Re: New Year's Computer Stories... [message #418672 is a reply to message #418662] |
Sun, 08 January 2023 13:32 |
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Originally posted by: johnson
On 2023-01-08, D.J <chucktheouch@gmnol.com> wrote:
[...]
> I was looking online at a time zone map a few years ago, and smaller
> countries around Pakistan are a half hour ahead of the surrounding
> countries. seems silly to me.
>
> Can't find the one I saw years ago, but this page mentions some
> countries are 30 and 45 minutes ahead of others nearby. Also
> explanations of DST, etc.
>
Nepal is UTC+05:45
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| Re: New Year's Computer Stories... [message #418673 is a reply to message #418668] |
Sun, 08 January 2023 15:08 |
D.J.
Messages: 821
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 8 Jan 2023 17:50:11 GMT, greymaus <greymaus@dmaus.org> wrote:
> On 2023-01-08, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2023-01-08, greymaus <greymaus@dmaus.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2023-01-08, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think the best thing would be to eliminate DST entirely. No more
>>>> semi-annual clock changes, no subtle bugs, and fewer road accidents
>>>> due to people's circadian rhythm being disturbed. Unfortunately,
>>>> here on the west coast of North America, most people are pushing
>>>> to make DST permanent. So much for the sun being overhead at noon.
>>>
>>> But, But, that would mean making a decision
>>
>> That's the frustrating part - the governments of British Columbia,
>> Washington, Oregon, and California are considering making such a
>> decision. I mentioned it to a few people at the office and a lot
>> of them are in favour. They'd rather have a dark morning, I guess.
>>
>
> The whole thing was started, as far as I know, during WWI[1], so workers
> could work their garden plots after coming home from the factories.
>
> [1] Along with other bad things.
Benjamin Franklin started it back in colonial times. I think it was
eventually done away with.
No idea when it started up again. We were told in the 1950s that it
was due to not all farmers having electricity, and when the Rural
elctrification Project was done, it would be stopped.
My grandfather asked the farmers he knew what they thought about it.
The replied that the chickens and cows can't tell time. They lay eggs
and get milked when needed. Clocks had nothing to do with it.
The excuse to keep it going changes every few years.
--
Jim
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| Re: New Year's Computer Stories... [message #418674 is a reply to message #418672] |
Sun, 08 January 2023 15:09 |
D.J.
Messages: 821
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Sun, 08 Jan 2023 18:32:51 GMT, johnson <root@example.net> wrote:
> On 2023-01-08, D.J <chucktheouch@gmnol.com> wrote:
> [...]
>> I was looking online at a time zone map a few years ago, and smaller
>> countries around Pakistan are a half hour ahead of the surrounding
>> countries. seems silly to me.
>>
>> Can't find the one I saw years ago, but this page mentions some
>> countries are 30 and 45 minutes ahead of others nearby. Also
>> explanations of DST, etc.
>>
>
> Nepal is UTC+05:45
I noticed, on that page I linked to, that parts of Australia are 45
minutes ahead in various places. I had no idea.
--
Jim
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| Re: New Year's Computer Stories... [message #418676 is a reply to message #418673] |
Sun, 08 January 2023 21:16 |
John Levine
Messages: 1405
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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According to D.J. <chucktheouch@gmnol.com>:
>> The whole thing was started, as far as I know, during WWI[1], so workers
>> could work their garden plots after coming home from the factories.
>>
>> [1] Along with other bad things.
That is my understanding, give or take gardening vs just having more
daylight while people are awake.
> Benjamin Franklin started it back in colonial times. I think it was
> eventually done away with.
He may wwll have talked about it, but DST doesn't even make sense until
you have time zones and they weren't invented until the late 1800s when
railroads imposed them on the country since schedules with each city in
its own solar time were impossible to comprehend.
--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
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| Re: New Year's Computer Stories... [message #418677 is a reply to message #418676] |
Sun, 08 January 2023 21:58 |
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Originally posted by: jtmpreno
On 1/8/2023 6:16 PM, John Levine wrote:
> According to D.J. <chucktheouch@gmnol.com>:
>>> The whole thing was started, as far as I know, during WWI[1], so workers
>>> could work their garden plots after coming home from the factories.
>>>
>>> [1] Along with other bad things.
>
> That is my understanding, give or take gardening vs just having more
> daylight while people are awake.
>
>> Benjamin Franklin started it back in colonial times. I think it was
>> eventually done away with.
>
> He may wwll have talked about it, but DST doesn't even make sense until
> you have time zones and they weren't invented until the late 1800s when
> railroads imposed them on the country since schedules with each city in
> its own solar time were impossible to comprehend.
>
Permanent DST is bad.
Permanent Standard Time is good.
https://www.colorado.edu/today/2022/03/28/why-permanent-dayl ight-saving-time-bad-idea
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| Re: New Year's Computer Stories... [message #418679 is a reply to message #418597] |
Mon, 09 January 2023 04:41 |
Andreas Eder
Messages: 128
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On So 08 Jan 2023 at 23:32, Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 08 Jan 2023 14:08:08 -0600, D.J. wrote:
>>
>> My grandfather asked the farmers he knew what they thought about it.
>> The replied that the chickens and cows can't tell time. They lay eggs
>> and get milked when needed. Clocks had nothing to do with it.
>
> I think chickens don't care, but cows do. They like a 24 hour cycle to
> get milked.
>
> As far as I know when switching clocks farmers gradually do it a few
> minutes earlier or later for some days to get cows adjusted.
Why adjust them at all? It is not as they would look at the clock and
they surely won't mind it they are ,ilked at 4 or 5 o'clock as long as
it is the same time.
'Andreas
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| Re: New Year's Computer Stories... [message #418680 is a reply to message #418679] |
Mon, 09 January 2023 05:12 |
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Originally posted by: maus
On 2023-01-09, Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> wrote:
> On So 08 Jan 2023 at 23:32, Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 08 Jan 2023 14:08:08 -0600, D.J. wrote:
>>>
>>> My grandfather asked the farmers he knew what they thought about it.
>>> The replied that the chickens and cows can't tell time. They lay eggs
>>> and get milked when needed. Clocks had nothing to do with it.
>>
>> I think chickens don't care, but cows do. They like a 24 hour cycle to
>> get milked.
>>
>> As far as I know when switching clocks farmers gradually do it a few
>> minutes earlier or later for some days to get cows adjusted.
>
> Why adjust them at all? It is not as they would look at the clock and
> they surely won't mind it they are ,ilked at 4 or 5 o'clock as long as
> it is the same time.
>
> 'Andreas
An elderly relative in New York would telephone us very early on
Christmas morning to wish HC. I don't like calls at odd hours.
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| Re: New Year's Computer Stories... [message #418681 is a reply to message #418652] |
Mon, 09 January 2023 09:04 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> On 2023-01-08, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 7 Jan 2023 09:52:57 GMT
>>> Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> wrote:
>>>
>>>> But recently I've had to use the Qt library's QDateTime[1] type, and
>>>> it occurred to me that this must be how people had to work before
>>>> someone (in the 1960s?) said "let's stop this nonsense and just count
>>>> seconds since some T=0".
>>>
>>> Late 60s given that the unix epoch is in 1970 (just).
>>>
>>>> A QDateTime is:
>>>> - a date
>>>> - a time-of-day
>>>> - a time zone
>>>>
>>>> and it's easy to get wrong. Not so much at New Year, but when you
>>>
>>> It's impossible to get right - places like Ireland and the UK
>>> switch timezone twice a year while most US timezones shift their offset from
>>> UTC twice a year. Then there's the whole business of the missing/duplicated
>>> hour as the clocks go forwards/backwards.
>>
>> I think Indiana is, or was, split between two timezones; Arizona doesn’t
>> observe DST; based on what I saw New Years, it appears Puerto Rico is 1/2
>> hour ahead of New York,; China is all one timezone, and there’s lots more
>> of such F*ckishness.
>
> Saskatchewan doesn't observe DST as well. Newfoundland and Labrador are
> (is?) half an hour ahead of Halifax.
>
>>>> start messing with the time zone, you have to remember which function
>>>> preserves the time while shifting the time zone, and which function
>>>> instead preserves the date and time-of-day.
>>>
>>> Then you cross a DST boundary and all the bugs come to the surface.
>
> I think the best thing would be to eliminate DST entirely. No more
> semi-annual clock changes, no subtle bugs, and fewer road accidents
> due to people's circadian rhythm being disturbed. Unfortunately,
> here on the west coast of North America, most people are pushing
> to make DST permanent. So much for the sun being overhead at noon.
>
If the areas were all contiguous, you could just rejigger the time zones.
They already jog around political boundaries. if they’re not, well, you
can’t have a patchwork. Here in AZ we son’t observe DST, and it makes
things a lot simpler, except when I have to deal with people from less
enlightened states, and have to count time zones on my fingers.
--
Pete
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