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Retro-computing Museum Destroyed in Ukraine [message #413775] Sat, 26 March 2022 21:57 Go to next message
RobertB is currently offline  RobertB
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https://www.pcgamer.com/uk/retro-computing-museum-in-ukraine -destroyed-by-russian-bomb/

Commodores, Amigas, and others destroyed. Fortunately, no one was hurt.

Truly,
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group - http://www.dickestel.com/fcug.htm
Southern California Commodore & Amiga Network - http://www.portcommodore.com/sccan
June 25-26 Commodore Los Angeles Super Show 2022 - http://www.portcommodore.com/class
Re: Retro-computing Museum Destroyed in Ukraine [message #413777 is a reply to message #413775] Sun, 27 March 2022 05:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: maus

On 2022-03-27, Robert Bernardo <rbernardo@iglou.com> wrote:
> https://www.pcgamer.com/uk/retro-computing-museum-in-ukraine -destroyed-by-russian-bomb/
>
> Commodores, Amigas, and others destroyed. Fortunately, no one was hurt.
>
> Truly,
> Robert Bernardo
> Fresno Commodore User Group - http://www.dickestel.com/fcug.htm
> Southern California Commodore & Amiga Network - http://www.portcommodore.com/sccan
> June 25-26 Commodore Los Angeles Super Show 2022 - http://www.portcommodore.com/class

My God! Is nothing safe?

--
greymausg@mail.com
That's not a mousehole!
Re: Retro-computing Museum Destroyed in Ukraine [message #413788 is a reply to message #413775] Sun, 27 March 2022 18:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
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Robert Bernardo <rbernardo@iglou.com> wrote:
> https://www.pcgamer.com/uk/retro-computing-museum-in-ukraine -destroyed-by-russian-bomb/
>
> Commodores, Amigas, and others destroyed. Fortunately, no one was hurt.
>
> Truly,
> Robert Bernardo
> Fresno Commodore User Group - http://www.dickestel.com/fcug.htm
> Southern California Commodore & Amiga Network - http://www.portcommodore.com/sccan
> June 25-26 Commodore Los Angeles Super Show 2022 - http://www.portcommodore.com/class
>

:-(

--
Pete
Re: Retro-computing Museum Destroyed in Ukraine [message #413789 is a reply to message #413777] Sun, 27 March 2022 18:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
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maus <maus@dmaus.org> wrote:
> On 2022-03-27, Robert Bernardo <rbernardo@iglou.com> wrote:
>> https://www.pcgamer.com/uk/retro-computing-museum-in-ukraine -destroyed-by-russian-bomb/
>>
>> Commodores, Amigas, and others destroyed. Fortunately, no one was hurt.
>>
>> Truly,
>> Robert Bernardo
>> Fresno Commodore User Group - http://www.dickestel.com/fcug.htm
>> Southern California Commodore & Amiga Network - http://www.portcommodore.com/sccan
>> June 25-26 Commodore Los Angeles Super Show 2022 - http://www.portcommodore.com/class
>
> My God! Is nothing safe?
>

I suppose, compared to all the people these idiots are killing, this is
small potatoes, but sad nonetheless.

--
Pete
Re: Retro-computing Museum Destroyed in Ukraine [message #413793 is a reply to message #413775] Mon, 28 March 2022 01:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: A.T. Murray

On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 6:57:18 PM UTC-7, Robert Bernardo wrote:
> https://www.pcgamer.com/uk/retro-computing-museum-in-ukraine -destroyed-by-russian-bomb/
>
> Commodores, Amigas, and others destroyed. Fortunately, no one was hurt.
>
> Truly,
> Robert Bernardo
> Fresno Commodore User Group - http://www.dickestel.com/fcug.htm
> Southern California Commodore & Amiga Network - http://www.portcommodore.com/sccan
> June 25-26 Commodore Los Angeles Super Show 2022 - http://www.portcommodore.com/class

President Biden wants the Russian butcher Putin to be gone. So be it.
Leave Putin to Mentifex. Mentifex will get rid of Putin.

98004 42278 13935 96409 49097 88134 66187 34961
02750 62677 85021 91735 69568 63394 23804 67947
34322 30350 08918 08967 37613 98589 13452 81487
94136 01892 64829 39659 10745 58729 53448 53972
Re: Retro-computing Museum Destroyed in Ukraine [message #413806 is a reply to message #413775] Tue, 29 March 2022 13:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
D.J. is currently offline  D.J.
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On Sat, 26 Mar 2022 18:57:16 -0700 (PDT), Robert Bernardo
<rbernardo@iglou.com> wrote:

> https://www.pcgamer.com/uk/retro-computing-museum-in-ukraine -destroyed-by-russian-bomb/
>
> Commodores, Amigas, and others destroyed. Fortunately, no one was hurt.

That is no good at all.
--
Jim
Vladimir Putin wins Nobel Peace Prize (Was: Re: Retro-computing Museum Destroyed in Ukraine) [message #413829 is a reply to message #413806] Sat, 02 April 2022 00:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: A.T. Murray

:МИР МИРУ ("Peace to the World") has been achieved so completely by Vladimir Putin that the Nobel Committee gushes with Schadenfreude in the awarding of the most prestigious Nobel Peace Prize ever to the 69-year-old President-for-Life-and-Death of Russia, Vladimir Satanovich Putin. Aided and abetted by the Patriarch Kirill of the Russian Orthodeath Church,
Vlad the Impaler has removed and terminated the noisy children of Ukraine and the loud drunken carousing of 16,000 young Russian soldiers now peacefully dead in fruitless battle. Imagine the joy and rapture of the surviving parents whom Putin has forever freed from the crying of babies and from the loud behavior of boisterous young Russian men. Peace and stillness at last, thanks to Putin! Quiet and deathly silence at last, Putin be praised! No more waking up in the middle of the night to tend to noisy babies, silenced now forever by the bombshells and missiles of the greatest Russian leader Putin. No more setting out precious food and drink for the rowdy Russian sons of 16 thousand Russian mothers, now granted the serene privilege of burying their hushed sons in peaceful cemeteries all across Russia. The grateful dead thank Putin for bringing peace and silence to sixteen thousand once-noisy Russian families. Moscow does not believe in tears, but 16K Russian mothers may shed tears of joy in the thanks-be-to-Putin knowledge that noisy grandchildren will never disturb the childless quiet and the kid-free tranquillity of their twilight years. Putin the Invincible, Putin the Baby-Slayer, has valiantly earned his Nobel Peace Prize by making all quiet on the western front, leaving peaceful Rubble for Rubles in the Ukrainian towns and soundless Graveyards for Grandsons in the heroic Russian cemeteries.

Instructions for taking his just reward to Putin:

58187 48967 21331 44763 71818 90089 71452 59260
25360 44699 14176 59827 18234 41769 20017 35312
63735 64243 19746 40628 13172 35566 28085 84321
65020 10808 87999 98632 46241 52744 97485 19950
Re: Vladimir Putin wins Nobel Peace Prize (Was: Re: Retro-computing Museum Destroyed in Ukraine) [message #413832 is a reply to message #413829] Sat, 02 April 2022 07:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Quadibloc is currently offline  Quadibloc
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On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 10:27:05 PM UTC-6, A.T. Murray wrote:
> :МИР МИРУ ("Peace to the World")

I just recently learned that it's only because of the Soviets that this confusion
exists in the Russian language. Under the old orthography, МИР was still the word
for "peace", but МІР was the word for "world".

John Savard
Re: Vladimir Putin wins Nobel Peace Prize (Was: Re: Retro-computing Museum Destroyed in Ukraine) [message #413833 is a reply to message #413832] Sat, 02 April 2022 07:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Quadibloc is currently offline  Quadibloc
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On Saturday, April 2, 2022 at 5:09:05 AM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 10:27:05 PM UTC-6, A.T. Murray wrote:

>> :МИР МИРУ ("Peace to the World")

> I just recently learned that it's only because of the Soviets that this confusion
> exists in the Russian language. Under the old orthography, МИР was still the word
> for "peace", but МІР was the word for "world".

Oh, that should have been МИРЪ and МІРЪ of course, reflecting the _one_
characteristic of the old orthography that it made sense to remove.

John Savard
Re: Vladimir Putin wins Nobel Peace Prize (Was: Re: Retro-computing Museum Destroyed in Ukraine) [message #413837 is a reply to message #413832] Sat, 02 April 2022 16:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
D.J. is currently offline  D.J.
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Registered: January 2012
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On Sat, 2 Apr 2022 04:09:04 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca>
wrote:
> I just recently learned that it's only because of the Soviets that this confusion
> exists in the Russian language. Under the old orthography, ??? was still the word
> for "peace", but ??? was the word for "world".
>
> John Savard

Pooty is uncultured.
--
Jim
Re: Vladimir Putin wins Nobel Peace Prize (Was: Re: Retro-computing Museum Destroyed in Ukraine) [message #413838 is a reply to message #413837] Sat, 02 April 2022 18:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Sat, 02 Apr 2022 15:44:10 -0500, D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Sat, 2 Apr 2022 04:09:04 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca>
> wrote:
>> I just recently learned that it's only because of the Soviets that this confusion
>> exists in the Russian language. Under the old orthography, ??? was still the word
>> for "peace", but ??? was the word for "world".
>>
>> John Savard
>
> Pooty is uncultured.

I am told that "nekulturny" is one of the direst insults in the
Russian language. And it certainly applies to him.
Re: Vladimir Putin wins Nobel Peace Prize (Was: Re: Retro-computing Museum Destroyed in Ukraine) [message #413839 is a reply to message #413838] Sun, 03 April 2022 00:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
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On Sat, 02 Apr 2022 18:25:39 -0400
J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:

> I am told that "nekulturny" is one of the direst insults in the
> Russian language. And it certainly applies to him.

One of his victims (she was trying to get out of the country and
didn't make it) had a phrase that applies to him he is a "nekulturny
fuckwit".

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Vladimir Putin wins Nobel Peace Prize (Was: Re: Retro-computing Museum Destroyed in Ukraine) [message #413840 is a reply to message #413839] Sun, 03 April 2022 10:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
scott is currently offline  scott
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Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
> On Sat, 02 Apr 2022 18:25:39 -0400
> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I am told that "nekulturny" is one of the direst insults in the
>> Russian language. And it certainly applies to him.

Sounds like Clarke has been reading too much Clancy.

>
> One of his victims (she was trying to get out of the country and
> didn't make it) had a phrase that applies to him he is a "nekulturny
> fuckwit".

Originally Answered: What does it mean for a Russian to
accuse someone of being "nekulturny"?
Do people say that anymore or is that a relic of Soviet times?

'Nekulturny' is 'uncultured'. No more.
It is a polite way to rebuke someone. Stronger word would be 'gruby' - 'rude'.
So the Urban Dictionary translation that you have is wrong in definition:
we'd never use 'bastard' with 'nekulturny'. Bastard is much more offensive.

'Nekulturny' can be used by mother, explaining to her kid why,
say, a drunk man is yelling. She'd say, 'that is a nekulturny
man, do not be like him'.

"No, it is not a relic of the Soviet times. When we say
that someone is uncultured, we mean that they are not interested
in culture per se - they don\u2019t read books, they cannot
speak or write properly and their outlook is narrow. They
cannot put two words together without an oath - these are
the people whom we call \u201cnekulturny\u201d.

https://www.quora.com/What-does-it-mean-for-a-Russian-to-acc use-someone-of-being-nekulturny-Do-people-say-that-anymore-o r-is-that-a-relic-of-Soviet-times
Re: Vladimir Putin wins Nobel Peace Prize (Was: Re: Retro-computing Museum Destroyed in Ukraine) [message #413841 is a reply to message #413840] Sun, 03 April 2022 12:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
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On 2022-04-03, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:

> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
>
>> On Sat, 02 Apr 2022 18:25:39 -0400
>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I am told that "nekulturny" is one of the direst insults in the
>>> Russian language. And it certainly applies to him.
>
> Sounds like Clarke has been reading too much Clancy.

Or Heinlein, who mentions the term in his essay on visiting the
Soviet Union which is included in _Expanded Universe_.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.
Re: Vladimir Putin wins Nobel Peace Prize [message #413843 is a reply to message #413829] Sun, 03 April 2022 15:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: maus

On 2022-04-03, Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 02 Apr 2022 18:25:39 -0400, J. Clarke wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, 02 Apr 2022 15:44:10 -0500, D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 2 Apr 2022 04:09:04 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca>
>>> wrote:
>>>> I just recently learned that it's only because of the Soviets that this confusion
>>>> exists in the Russian language. Under the old orthography, ??? was still the word
>>>> for "peace", but ??? was the word for "world".
>>>>
>>>> John Savard
>>>
>>> Pooty is uncultured.
>>
>> I am told that "nekulturny" is one of the direst insults in the
>> Russian language. And it certainly applies to him.
>
> I seem to hear that in Russian dash cam videos quite often.

Do What?. AFAIK, dashcams are used in Russia to record the frequent
carcrashes, for insurance claims.

> I hope the
> sanctions or retalliations (i.e. taking Youtube away from Russians) won't
> dry them out.

Oh no banning youtube! Its too cruel. :)


--
greymausg@mail.com
That's not a mousehole!
Re: Vladimir Putin wins Nobel Peace Prize [message #413844 is a reply to message #413843] Sun, 03 April 2022 21:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andreas Kohlbach is currently offline  Andreas Kohlbach
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On 3 Apr 2022 19:24:23 GMT, maus wrote:
>
> On 2022-04-03, Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>>
>> I seem to hear that in Russian dash cam videos quite often.
>
> Do What?.

Something missing in my sentence... I probably meant "I watch Russian dash
cam videos quite often".

> AFAIK, dashcams are used in Russia to record the frequent
> carcrashes, for insurance claims.

That and other things. Like the meteor event in 2013. Also road rage and
other car related things. Like in
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xt1Bsm7-jRQ>.

>> I hope the
>> sanctions or retalliations (i.e. taking Youtube away from Russians) won't
>> dry them out.
>
> Oh no banning youtube! Its too cruel. :)

Russians also go Netflix removed.

Rumors say Russia starts an own streaming service called Njetflix. -)
--
Andreas
Re: Vladimir Putin wins Nobel Peace Prize (Was: Re: Retro-computing Museum Destroyed in Ukraine) [message #413845 is a reply to message #413841] Sun, 03 April 2022 23:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Sun, 03 Apr 2022 16:01:29 GMT, Charlie Gibbs
<cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

> On 2022-04-03, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>
>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
>>
>>> On Sat, 02 Apr 2022 18:25:39 -0400
>>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I am told that "nekulturny" is one of the direst insults in the
>>>> Russian language. And it certainly applies to him.
>>
>> Sounds like Clarke has been reading too much Clancy.
>
> Or Heinlein, who mentions the term in his essay on visiting the
> Soviet Union which is included in _Expanded Universe_.

If we ever get back to working in the office I'll have to go across
the hall and ask the model governance guys about this. They're native
speakers of Russian.
Re: Vladimir Putin wins Nobel Peace Prize (Was: Re: Retro-computing Museum Destroyed in Ukraine) [message #414067 is a reply to message #413845] Tue, 19 April 2022 04:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Quadibloc is currently offline  Quadibloc
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On Sunday, April 3, 2022 at 9:02:54 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:

> If we ever get back to working in the office I'll have to go across
> the hall and ask the model governance guys about this. They're native
> speakers of Russian.

From what I've read about the matter, the use of this term tells
us something about Russian culture; if someone is openly
racist, he would be called "nekulturny", meaning that he is
ignorant - rather than something which, to us, would seem a
stronger criticism, based on racism being _morally wrong_.

This reflects what many Westerners would view as a defective
model of the world - viewing things through the superficial
prism of what is considered to be modern and sophisticated,
instead of putting the basic distinction between Right and
Wrong always front and center.

John Savard
Re: Vladimir Putin wins Nobel Peace Prize (Was: Re: Retro-computing Museum Destroyed in Ukraine) [message #414069 is a reply to message #414067] Tue, 19 April 2022 06:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
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On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 01:19:45 -0700 (PDT)
Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

> On Sunday, April 3, 2022 at 9:02:54 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> If we ever get back to working in the office I'll have to go across
>> the hall and ask the model governance guys about this. They're native
>> speakers of Russian.
>
> From what I've read about the matter, the use of this term tells
> us something about Russian culture; if someone is openly
> racist, he would be called "nekulturny", meaning that he is
> ignorant - rather than something which, to us, would seem a

Stronger than ignorant AIUI there's a real implication of "decent
people don't do that" about it. It comes over as an attempt at education
and behaviour correction by peer pressure which seems to me to be a very
appropriate response.

> stronger criticism, based on racism being _morally wrong_.

Therefore punishable if not corrected ?

> This reflects what many Westerners would view as a defective
> model of the world - viewing things through the superficial

Many consider the Western view of the world defective - they're not
wrong IMHO it would be incredibly arrogant and stupid to think it perfect.

> prism of what is considered to be modern and sophisticated,

There is another viewpoint though. The only thing that stops us
fighting openly over things, taking what we want and so on is the culture of
mutual respect and tolerance built up slowly over thousands of years. The
definitions of morally right and wrong shift like quicksand over the
centuries and across cultures but one thing has remained constant - if
you're not following the norms of the culture around you then you are
likely to have trouble.

> instead of putting the basic distinction between Right and
> Wrong always front and center.

The trouble with that is that right and wrong are moving targets.
For most of history holding slaves was normal and therefore considered
right by most people - including many of the slaves by all accounts! Up
until some time in the early twentieth century eugenics was considered by
many (famous and widely respected among them) people to be sound and correct
science and the only real hope for the future of mankind. Putting capitals
on them and holding them up as fixed points is false to fact and often seen
as an attempt to impose a particular flavour of morality on people who
disagree with some aspects of it.

The current preoccupation with political correctness raised to the
level of moral imperative does sometimes make it difficult to discuss real
differences of racial origin because somewhere there's this deep seated
idea that if two things are not the same one must be better than the other.
That is cultural and starts in early education with "What's your favourite
colour" and less formally with "Who do you support".

It is important that we recognise right and wrong as cultural
artefacts subject to change because it is by changing the widespread
understanding of these concepts that real social development happens. Not
too long ago a successful duelist was a celebrated character acting fully
within their rights, now they'd be despised as a multiple murderer. In 1553
in the UK homosexual acts were so wrong that they became punishable by
death, four hundred and fourteen years later they became legal for some,
a little too late to prevent Alan Turing's ill treatment at the hands ofthe
law and consequent suicide. The torturers of the Spanish Inquisition
believed they were doing Right and staked their immortal souls on that
belief by doing terrible things in the cause of Right.

There are no demonstrably correct definitions of right and wrong,
but there are far too many strong opinions and too little tolerance of
differences but there seems to be what looks to me like steady improvement
over long periods.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Vladimir Putin wins Nobel Peace Prize [message #414070 is a reply to message #414069] Tue, 19 April 2022 08:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andreas Eder is currently offline  Andreas Eder
Messages: 128
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Di 19 Apr 2022 at 11:48, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 01:19:45 -0700 (PDT)
> Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>> On Sunday, April 3, 2022 at 9:02:54 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:
>>
>>> If we ever get back to working in the office I'll have to go across
>>> the hall and ask the model governance guys about this. They're native
>>> speakers of Russian.
>>
>> From what I've read about the matter, the use of this term tells
>> us something about Russian culture; if someone is openly
>> racist, he would be called "nekulturny", meaning that he is
>> ignorant - rather than something which, to us, would seem a
>
> Stronger than ignorant AIUI there's a real implication of "decent
> people don't do that" about it. It comes over as an attempt at education
> and behaviour correction by peer pressure which seems to me to be a very
> appropriate response.
>
>> stronger criticism, based on racism being _morally wrong_.
>
> Therefore punishable if not corrected ?
>
>> This reflects what many Westerners would view as a defective
>> model of the world - viewing things through the superficial
>
> Many consider the Western view of the world defective - they're not
> wrong IMHO it would be incredibly arrogant and stupid to think it perfect.
>
>> prism of what is considered to be modern and sophisticated,
>
> There is another viewpoint though. The only thing that stops us
> fighting openly over things, taking what we want and so on is the culture of
> mutual respect and tolerance built up slowly over thousands of years. The
> definitions of morally right and wrong shift like quicksand over the
> centuries and across cultures but one thing has remained constant - if
> you're not following the norms of the culture around you then you are
> likely to have trouble.
>
>> instead of putting the basic distinction between Right and
>> Wrong always front and center.
>
> The trouble with that is that right and wrong are moving targets.
> For most of history holding slaves was normal and therefore considered
> right by most people - including many of the slaves by all accounts! Up
> until some time in the early twentieth century eugenics was considered by
> many (famous and widely respected among them) people to be sound and correct
> science and the only real hope for the future of mankind. Putting capitals
> on them and holding them up as fixed points is false to fact and often seen
> as an attempt to impose a particular flavour of morality on people who
> disagree with some aspects of it.
>
> The current preoccupation with political correctness raised to the
> level of moral imperative does sometimes make it difficult to discuss real
> differences of racial origin because somewhere there's this deep seated
> idea that if two things are not the same one must be better than the other.
> That is cultural and starts in early education with "What's your favourite
> colour" and less formally with "Who do you support".
>
> It is important that we recognise right and wrong as cultural
> artefacts subject to change because it is by changing the widespread
> understanding of these concepts that real social development happens. Not
> too long ago a successful duelist was a celebrated character acting fully
> within their rights, now they'd be despised as a multiple murderer. In 1553
> in the UK homosexual acts were so wrong that they became punishable by
> death, four hundred and fourteen years later they became legal for some,
> a little too late to prevent Alan Turing's ill treatment at the hands ofthe
> law and consequent suicide. The torturers of the Spanish Inquisition
> believed they were doing Right and staked their immortal souls on that
> belief by doing terrible things in the cause of Right.
>
> There are no demonstrably correct definitions of right and wrong,
> but there are far too many strong opinions and too little tolerance of
> differences but there seems to be what looks to me like steady improvement
> over long periods.

Very well put! I totally agree.
+1

'Andreas
Re: Vladimir Putin wins Nobel Peace Prize (Was: Re: Retro-computing Museum Destroyed in Ukraine) [message #414077 is a reply to message #414069] Tue, 19 April 2022 16:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Vir Campestris

On 19/04/2022 11:48, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> The trouble with that is that right and wrong are moving targets.
> For most of history holding slaves was normal and therefore considered
> right by most people - including many of the slaves by all accounts! Up
> until some time in the early twentieth century eugenics was considered by
> many (famous and widely respected among them) people to be sound and correct
> science and the only real hope for the future of mankind. Putting capitals
> on them and holding them up as fixed points is false to fact and often seen
> as an attempt to impose a particular flavour of morality on people who
> disagree with some aspects of it.

The time in the 20th century that eugenics became unacceptable was when
Hitler used the term.

I think it may be the future of mankind. But I don't know how to stop
another Hitler.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Marching_Morons

Andy
Re: Vladimir Putin wins Nobel Peace Prize (Was: Re: Retro-computing Museum Destroyed in Ukraine) [message #414085 is a reply to message #414077] Wed, 20 April 2022 01:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
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On 2022-04-19, Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 19/04/2022 11:48, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>
>> The trouble with that is that right and wrong are moving targets.
>> For most of history holding slaves was normal and therefore considered
>> right by most people - including many of the slaves by all accounts! Up
>> until some time in the early twentieth century eugenics was considered by
>> many (famous and widely respected among them) people to be sound and correct
>> science and the only real hope for the future of mankind. Putting capitals
>> on them and holding them up as fixed points is false to fact and often seen
>> as an attempt to impose a particular flavour of morality on people who
>> disagree with some aspects of it.
>
> The time in the 20th century that eugenics became unacceptable was when
> Hitler used the term.
>
> I think it may be the future of mankind. But I don't know how to stop
> another Hitler.

a.k.a Putin, Kim, Trump...

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Marching_Morons

Wonderful book. I think of it when I hear terms like "de-skilling".

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.
Re: Vladimir Putin wins Nobel Peace Prize (Was: Re: Retro-computing Museum Destroyed in Ukraine) [message #414087 is a reply to message #414077] Wed, 20 April 2022 01:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
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On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 21:51:48 +0100
Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> The time in the 20th century that eugenics became unacceptable was when
> Hitler used the term.
>
> I think it may be the future of mankind. But I don't know how to stop
> another Hitler.

Nobody does, but use of eugenics would probably have prevented
Stephen Hawking.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Vladimir Putin wins Nobel Peace Prize (Was: Re: Retro-computing Museum Destroyed in Ukraine) [message #414089 is a reply to message #414087] Wed, 20 April 2022 05:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Harry Vaderchi is currently offline  Harry Vaderchi
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On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 06:45:51 +0100
Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 21:51:48 +0100
> Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> The time in the 20th century that eugenics became unacceptable was when
>> Hitler used the term.
>>
>> I think it may be the future of mankind. But I don't know how to stop
>> another Hitler.
>
> Nobody does, but use of eugenics would probably have prevented
> Stephen Hawking.
>
Prevented his degeneration do you mean? Or is gene therapy different?

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.
Re: Vladimir Putin wins Nobel Peace Prize (Was: Re: Retro-computing Museum Destroyed in Ukraine) [message #414096 is a reply to message #414089] Wed, 20 April 2022 08:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
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On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 10:56:15 +0100
"Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote:

> On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 06:45:51 +0100
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 21:51:48 +0100
>> Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> The time in the 20th century that eugenics became unacceptable was
>>> when Hitler used the term.
>>>
>>> I think it may be the future of mankind. But I don't know how to stop
>>> another Hitler.
>>
>> Nobody does, but use of eugenics would probably have prevented
>> Stephen Hawking.
>>
> Prevented his degeneration do you mean? Or is gene therapy different?

Very different - eugenics is about cleaning the bad genes from the
pool by removing the carriers or preventing them from entering the pool. He
would either have been denied conception or destroyed as defective very
early on (before birth if possible). If he got to the point of reproducing
before being declared defective then it would be him and all the children
removed from the pool (killing or sterilisation either is fine by eugenics)
unless they could be proven not to be carriers.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Vladimir Putin wins Nobel Peace Prize (Was: Re: Retro-computing Museum Destroyed in Ukraine) [message #414115 is a reply to message #414087] Thu, 21 April 2022 14:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
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Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 21:51:48 +0100
> Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> The time in the 20th century that eugenics became unacceptable was when
>> Hitler used the term.
>>
>> I think it may be the future of mankind. But I don't know how to stop
>> another Hitler.
>
> Nobody does, but use of eugenics would probably have prevented
> Stephen Hawking.
>

OTOH, it might have prevented Trump, in which case I’d have been for it.
The original intent was to prevent “undesirables” from reproducing - black,
brown yellow, or just plain poor.

--
Pete
Re: Vladimir Putin wins Nobel Peace Prize (Was: Re: Retro-computing Museum Destroyed in Ukraine) [message #414116 is a reply to message #414089] Thu, 21 April 2022 15:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Quadibloc is currently offline  Quadibloc
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On Wednesday, April 20, 2022 at 3:56:18 AM UTC-6, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 06:45:51 +0100
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:

>> Nobody does, but use of eugenics would probably have prevented
>> Stephen Hawking.

> Prevented his degeneration do you mean? Or is gene therapy different?

No, he meant preventing him like it would have prevented Beethoven -
likely to develop deafness later in life.

Gene therapy isn't eugenics - it isn't going around killing or sterilizing
people who don't measure up.

John Savard
Re: Vladimir Putin wins Nobel Peace Prize (Was: Re: Retro-computing Museum Destroyed in Ukraine) [message #414120 is a reply to message #414069] Thu, 21 April 2022 16:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Quadibloc is currently offline  Quadibloc
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On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 5:00:03 AM UTC-6, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

> The trouble with that is that right and wrong are moving targets.
> For most of history holding slaves was normal and therefore considered
> right by most people - including many of the slaves by all accounts! Up
> until some time in the early twentieth century eugenics was considered by
> many (famous and widely respected among them) people to be sound and correct
> science and the only real hope for the future of mankind. Putting capitals
> on them and holding them up as fixed points is false to fact and often seen
> as an attempt to impose a particular flavour of morality on people who
> disagree with some aspects of it.

You raise an important point.

However, I think it is possible to distinguish between what we know about
right and wrong, and current fashions.
Even when slavery was tolerated in the United States - as a pragmatic
compromise so that the country could include the South, and thus be
large enough to fight Britain - people knew the Truth, as it was written in
the Declaration of Independence: "All men are created equal".

> The current preoccupation with political correctness raised to the
> level of moral imperative does sometimes make it difficult to discuss real
> differences of racial origin because somewhere there's this deep seated
> idea that if two things are not the same one must be better than the other.
> That is cultural and starts in early education with "What's your favourite
> colour" and less formally with "Who do you support".

I think that it's difficult to discuss "real differences of racial origin" for
other reasons.
It's true that of two skin colors that are not the same, one _is_ better for
avoiding sunburn. But the other is better for getting vitamin D naturally
from being out in the sun.
But that isn't where the problem lies.
If there _were_ a real difference in IQ due to race, _that_ would be a big
problem, not because being smarter is _assumed_ to be better - it _is_
better - but because the reason horses aren't allowed to vote is because
horses aren't as smart as people.
The fact that humans have higher intelligence than other species of animals
is the *reason why* humans, and only humans, are recognized as persons
with rights. So if blacks had less of that, it would be an easy jump to thinking
of them as _less human_.
The _good_ news is that there _isn't_ a "real difference" of _this sort_ between
the races.
Not because there shouldn't be, according to liberal political dogma. But
because of observed fact.
- Observed fact 1: The pervasiveness of inequality faced by black people in
the U.S. is _easily_ enough to account for the measured 15 points difference
in I.Q. between blacks and whites found by one study.
- Observed fact 2: To examine the hypothesis that intelligence differences
exist between the races, one should look for a case where it will be the easiest
to measure. Of the various human races, the smallest brain weight is found in
the Bushmen/Hottentots/Pygmies of Africa, and the Australian Aborigine. But
it's a general law that intelligence is also determined by brain size relative to
body size, and the Pygmies are short.
So if there were any intellectually inferior humans about, the Australian Aborigine
would be the most obvious case.
And I recall reading of how an explorer who lived among the Aborigines for a
while was impressed at their incredible feats of the intellect in remembering and
recognizing an immense catalogue of varieties of the local fauna and flora, thus
enabling them to survive in their harsh environment.
So they're geniuses, not dummies.
- Observed fact 3: All humans everywhere have spoken language. Indigenous
languages show as much grammatical sophistication as any other languages.
- Observed fact 4: In the case of the racial groups that appear to be *superior*
to the baseline of white Europeans, cultural reasons appear to exist that are
sufficient to account for their superiority from environmental causes: the
_bar mitzvah_ in the case of Jews, and the Imperial Civil Service Examinations
in the case of East Asians.

I'll grant you that this is a very limited amount of evidence, but it's what I've
managed to find out _for myself_, given that usually the books and essays
that argue for racial equality *don't* take seriously the concept that the
(intellectual, rather than moral) equality of all races is something that
actually needs to be tested and proved, because possibly it could be the
other way.

Stephen Jay Gould at least _mentioned_ the existence of this issue.

So what I'd _like_ to see is someone show that all the races are equal in
intelligence in a book packed with meticulous examination of vast amounts
of evidence gathered from all over the world, like _The Origin of Species_.
I'm not holding my breath, but based on the evidence above, I think that
racial equality is extremely likely. There may be slight differences, but the
overlap between the bell curves for each race would make them invisible.

But there are "real differences" between ethnic groups deriving from genetics.
But they have to do with _details_, not the essence of what makes us human.
However, details on their own can be troublesome.
So, it might indeed be the case, once we finally eradicate the vast amounts
of economic and social inequality between the races that now exist, that
people of some minority groups are still under-represented in some fields.
Particularly in the STEM fields, which are likely to be the ones so highly
valued for this to be a concern.
Black people may be over-represented in music for cultural reasons, since
for so long it was the only field in which they were _allowed_ to be
successful.
Some indigenous peoples may be more likely to be dyslexic, since dyslexia
wouldn't be selected against for people *without a written language*.

I can, therefore, see how real differences between the races could
come into conflict with our ideals of racial equality - but I think that's
a problem we will have to face in the far future, not today.

John Savard
Re: Vladimir Putin wins Nobel Peace Prize (Was: Re: Retro-computing Museum Destroyed in Ukraine) [message #414121 is a reply to message #414120] Thu, 21 April 2022 16:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Vir Campestris

On 21/04/2022 21:25, Quadibloc wrote:
> I think that it's difficult to discuss "real differences of racial origin" for
> other reasons.
> It's true that of two skin colors that are not the same, one_is_ better for
> avoiding sunburn. But the other is better for getting vitamin D naturally
> from being out in the sun.

There's quite a lot of evidence now that early farmers suffered from
dietary problems. They were shorter than the hunter gatherers that
preceded them. And there's also evidence from people like Cheddar Man
that the hunter-gatherers were quite dark. Whiteness is a response to
poor farming techniques.

> But that isn't where the problem lies.
> If there_were_ a real difference in IQ due to race,_that_ would be a big
> problem, not because being smarter is_assumed_ to be better - it_is_
> better - but because the reason horses aren't allowed to vote is because
> horses aren't as smart as people.
> The fact that humans have higher intelligence than other species of animals
> is the*reason why* humans, and only humans, are recognized as persons
> with rights. So if blacks had less of that, it would be an easy jump to thinking
> of them as_less human_.
> The_good_ news is that there_isn't_ a "real difference" of_this sort_ between
> the races.
> Not because there shouldn't be, according to liberal political dogma. But
> because of observed fact.
> - Observed fact 1: The pervasiveness of inequality faced by black people in
> the U.S. is_easily_ enough to account for the measured 15 points difference
> in I.Q. between blacks and whites found by one study.

<snip>

I find myself between two camps here.

I'll be surprised if there _isn't_ a real, but small difference between
the races.

I _know_ there is prejudice and inequality of opportunity.

But when somebody walks in to my office for an interview none of that
matters. I can't afford a genius, and I don't want an idiot. And it's
immaterial whether a single person meets my criteria by being unusual
for their race and gender, or just because there's no difference between
the races and genders.

Andy
Re: Vladimir Putin wins Nobel Peace Prize (Was: Re: Retro-computing Museum Destroyed in Ukraine) [message #414125 is a reply to message #414121] Thu, 21 April 2022 17:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
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On Thu, 21 Apr 2022 21:44:31 +0100
Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> I'll be surprised if there _isn't_ a real, but small difference between
> the races.

There are many real and not small differences between the races, if
there weren't we wouldn't be able to tell them apart so easily. Here's one
I rather envied - an old friend of mine had maintenance free hair, it never
needed cutting and it never grew to more than a skullcap of tight curls.
Only some races are lucky enough to have that - but then some might not
think it lucky.

The core problem is the common idea that if two things are
different then one must necessarily be better than the other - which is
brain dead stupid and nearly universal at a gut level.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Vladimir Putin wins Nobel Peace Prize (Was: Re: Retro-computing Museum Destroyed in Ukraine) [message #414126 is a reply to message #414120] Thu, 21 April 2022 18:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
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Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 5:00:03 AM UTC-6, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>
> However, I think it is possible to distinguish between what we know about
> right and wrong, and current fashions.
> Even when slavery was tolerated in the United States - as a pragmatic
> compromise so that the country could include the South, and thus be
> large enough to fight Britain - people knew the Truth, as it was written in
> the Declaration of Independence: "All men are created equal".

By the mid 1700s, certainly, but up until a century or so before slavery
was accepted with few questions.

>
>> The current preoccupation with political correctness raised to the
>> level of moral imperative does sometimes make it difficult to discuss real
>> differences of racial origin because somewhere there's this deep seated
>> idea that if two things are not the same one must be better than the other.
>> That is cultural and starts in early education with "What's your favourite
>> colour" and less formally with "Who do you support".
>
> I think that it's difficult to discuss "real differences of racial origin" for
> other reasons.
> It's true that of two skin colors that are not the same, one _is_ better for
> avoiding sunburn. But the other is better for getting vitamin D naturally
> from being out in the sun.
> But that isn't where the problem lies.
> If there _were_ a real difference in IQ due to race, _that_ would be a big
> problem, not because being smarter is _assumed_ to be better - it _is_
> better - but because the reason horses aren't allowed to vote is because
> horses aren't as smart as people.

Whether or not there are any real genetic differences in IQ (and people who
have tried to find out have been crucified) this is too simplistic. The
intelligence of a group is spread out on a curve. Are you looking at the
“average” (mean, median, mode?) IQ of one group being higher than another?
Are you looking at the outliers?
Most people don’t use all the intelligence they have; what if members of
one group use more of possibly lesser brainpower than members of another?
Of course it’s impossible to measure intelligence in the abstract, isolated
from cultural factors.

> The fact that humans have higher intelligence than other species of animals
> is the *reason why* humans, and only humans, are recognized as persons
> with rights.

This is changing. Apes, elephants, dolphins, whales, and octopi are
probably about as intelligent as many people, or at least as intelligent as
people on the right of the curve. This doesn’t mean that we give them the
franchise, but it does, of at least should, give them rights.

>
> John Savard
>



--
Pete
Re: Vladimir Putin wins Nobel Peace Prize (Was: Re: Retro-computing Museum Destroyed in Ukraine) [message #414127 is a reply to message #414121] Thu, 21 April 2022 18:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
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Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 21/04/2022 21:25, Quadibloc wrote:
>> I think that it's difficult to discuss "real differences of racial origin" for
>> other reasons.
>> It's true that of two skin colors that are not the same, one_is_ better for
>> avoiding sunburn. But the other is better for getting vitamin D naturally
>> from being out in the sun.
>
> There's quite a lot of evidence now that early farmers suffered from
> dietary problems. They were shorter than the hunter gatherers that
> preceded them. And there's also evidence from people like Cheddar Man
> that the hunter-gatherers were quite dark. Whiteness is a response to
> poor farming techniques.
>
>> But that isn't where the problem lies.
>> If there_were_ a real difference in IQ due to race,_that_ would be a big
>> problem, not because being smarter is_assumed_ to be better - it_is_
>> better - but because the reason horses aren't allowed to vote is because
>> horses aren't as smart as people.
>> The fact that humans have higher intelligence than other species of animals
>> is the*reason why* humans, and only humans, are recognized as persons
>> with rights. So if blacks had less of that, it would be an easy jump to thinking
>> of them as_less human_.
>> The_good_ news is that there_isn't_ a "real difference" of_this sort_ between
>> the races.
>> Not because there shouldn't be, according to liberal political dogma. But
>> because of observed fact.
>> - Observed fact 1: The pervasiveness of inequality faced by black people in
>> the U.S. is_easily_ enough to account for the measured 15 points difference
>> in I.Q. between blacks and whites found by one study.
>
> <snip>
>
> I find myself between two camps here.
>
> I'll be surprised if there _isn't_ a real, but small difference between
> the races.
>
> I _know_ there is prejudice and inequality of opportunity.
>
> But when somebody walks in to my office for an interview none of that
> matters. I can't afford a genius, and I don't want an idiot. And it's
> immaterial whether a single person meets my criteria by being unusual
> for their race and gender, or just because there's no difference between
> the races and genders.
>

Right on, but in addition there’s more to being able to do a job than
intelligence. A genius who can’t get along with cow-orkers would probably
be a bad fit for most jobs. Being a hard worker will usually trump higher
intelligence, etc.

--
Pete
Re: Vladimir Putin wins Nobel Peace Prize (Was: Re: Retro-computing Museum Destroyed in Ukraine) [message #414128 is a reply to message #414125] Thu, 21 April 2022 18:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
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Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Apr 2022 21:44:31 +0100
> Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> I'll be surprised if there _isn't_ a real, but small difference between
>> the races.
>
> There are many real and not small differences between the races, if
> there weren't we wouldn't be able to tell them apart so easily. Here's one
> I rather envied - an old friend of mine had maintenance free hair, it never
> needed cutting and it never grew to more than a skullcap of tight curls.
> Only some races are lucky enough to have that - but then some might not
> think it lucky.
>
> The core problem is the common idea that if two things are
> different then one must necessarily be better than the other - which is
> brain dead stupid and nearly universal at a gut level.
>

Maybe better for one thing than another. Groups that are genetically tall
and long-legged are better at basketball and running, for example. People
with a higher inherited level of body fat survive better in cold climates
than very lean people. You can probably go on and on with genetic physical
differences, why not also intellectual differences?

--
Pete
Re: Vladimir Putin wins Nobel Peace Prize (Was: Re: Retro-computing Museum Destroyed in Ukraine) [message #414129 is a reply to message #414128] Thu, 21 April 2022 18:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
scott is currently offline  scott
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Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>> On Thu, 21 Apr 2022 21:44:31 +0100
>> Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> I'll be surprised if there _isn't_ a real, but small difference between
>>> the races.
>>
>> There are many real and not small differences between the races, if
>> there weren't we wouldn't be able to tell them apart so easily. Here's one
>> I rather envied - an old friend of mine had maintenance free hair, it never
>> needed cutting and it never grew to more than a skullcap of tight curls.
>> Only some races are lucky enough to have that - but then some might not
>> think it lucky.
>>
>> The core problem is the common idea that if two things are
>> different then one must necessarily be better than the other - which is
>> brain dead stupid and nearly universal at a gut level.
>>
>
> Maybe better for one thing than another. Groups that are genetically tall
> and long-legged are better at basketball and running, for example.

Is that really true? Or are you only looking at the exceptional "tall
and long-legged"? I sucked at basketball, and I'm taller than Steph
Curry.
Re: Vladimir Putin wins Nobel Peace Prize (Was: Re: Retro-computing Museum Destroyed in Ukraine) [message #414131 is a reply to message #414129] Thu, 21 April 2022 19:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
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Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 21 Apr 2022 21:44:31 +0100
>>> Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'll be surprised if there _isn't_ a real, but small difference between
>>>> the races.
>>>
>>> There are many real and not small differences between the races, if
>>> there weren't we wouldn't be able to tell them apart so easily. Here's one
>>> I rather envied - an old friend of mine had maintenance free hair, it never
>>> needed cutting and it never grew to more than a skullcap of tight curls.
>>> Only some races are lucky enough to have that - but then some might not
>>> think it lucky.
>>>
>>> The core problem is the common idea that if two things are
>>> different then one must necessarily be better than the other - which is
>>> brain dead stupid and nearly universal at a gut level.
>>>
>>
>> Maybe better for one thing than another. Groups that are genetically tall
>> and long-legged are better at basketball and running, for example.
>
> Is that really true? Or are you only looking at the exceptional "tall
> and long-legged"? I sucked at basketball, and I'm taller than Steph
> Curry.
>

Not entirely, but short basketball players have a disadvantage vs. tall
ones. Natural talent and hard work can overcome some of it, but given two
players of equal talent I’d put my money on the taller one. Likewise given
two football players of roughly equal talent, I’d put my money on the
300-pounder and not the 200-pounder.

--
Pete
Re: Vladimir Putin wins Nobel Peace Prize [message #414135 is a reply to message #414125] Fri, 22 April 2022 01:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andreas Eder is currently offline  Andreas Eder
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On Do 21 Apr 2022 at 22:39, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

> The core problem is the common idea that if two things are
> different then one must necessarily be better than the other - which is
> brain dead stupid and nearly universal at a gut level.

Somehow most people do not grok partial orders.
They think, if there is an order, it is always total (linear).

'Andreas
Re: Vladimir Putin wins Nobel Peace Prize (Was: Re: Retro-computing Museum Destroyed in Ukraine) [message #414136 is a reply to message #414128] Fri, 22 April 2022 02:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
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Registered: January 2012
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On Thu, 21 Apr 2022 15:26:24 -0700
Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Maybe better for one thing than another. Groups that are genetically tall
> and long-legged are better at basketball and running, for example. People
> with a higher inherited level of body fat survive better in cold climates
> than very lean people. You can probably go on and on with genetic physical
> differences, why not also intellectual differences?

Mainly because there is no evidence for any racially linked
intellectual differences but there is clear evidence for racially linked
physical differences.

But my real point is that there are differences of all kinds
between people and the racial differences are no different to any of the
other differences.

They don't change the simple fact that we're all people and we all
deserve the same baseline consideration and respect from others until as
individuals we change that.

Now to speculation - if there are any racially linked intellectual
differences they won't be so crude as "these people are incredibly
intelligent and these ones are stupid" they will be more along the lines of
"these people tend to have better than average spatial awareness because
they ..." or even more subtle and specific.

In an environment without meaningless bias these kinds of
differences would lead to some professions being biased towards some races
simply because the required skills/talents/physique are more common in those
races. This is where political correctness (must match the population
distribution, everybody is the same under the skin ...) and the obsession
with better (that comes from the obsession with best) as an absolute
interfere with even thinking clearly about it.

Sadly we do not live in an environment without meaningless bias and
there are people who look upon anyone different to themselves as being
inferior and undesirable without actually seeing the person. The next step
is the classic dehumanising of the different in exactly the same way as the
enemy is dehumanised in time of war (with insulting nicknames like tommy,
frog, bosch, gook, chink, kike, nigger ...).

To really make a difference we need to train a generation to resist
this sort of thing no matter what the driving force is (war, racism,
greed ...). To see every attempt at dehumanising any group of people as
wrong and evil. We seem to be going that way - I hope we survive long
enough.

IQ tests are culturally biased and the idea of reducing
intellectual capability to a single number is false to fact, yet another
part of this obsession with better and worse that makes no sense at all when
looked at closely.

I have a higher measured IQ than pretty much everyone around
me but that doesn't make be better except at solving some kinds of puzzles -
for example I'm poor at languages while I recall a school friend with a much
lower measured IQ who was fluent in nine languages at the age of sixteen.

Which of us has the better brain ? Are either of us better than the
school dropout who is now an expert car mechanic, or the woman who uses a
calculator to multiply by ten and plays hauntingly beautiful music ? Right
the questions are meaningless, stupid and divisive - and I haven't even
mentioned race!

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Vladimir Putin wins Nobel Peace Prize [message #414141 is a reply to message #414135] Fri, 22 April 2022 03:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
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Senior Member
On Fri, 22 Apr 2022 07:49:47 +0200
Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> wrote:

> On Do 21 Apr 2022 at 22:39, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>
>> The core problem is the common idea that if two things are
>> different then one must necessarily be better than the other - which is
>> brain dead stupid and nearly universal at a gut level.
>
> Somehow most people do not grok partial orders.
> They think, if there is an order, it is always total (linear).

Added to that they tend to think that all differences must be
ordered, and I think that's taught!

"What's your favorite colour ?" - I was five when that question
stumped me (so I picked black at random at got laughed at). It took many
years to fully understand why it stumped me and I still don't understand
why it doesn't stump *everybody* the same way. I sometimes suspect that it
does stump everybody but they pick something at random that doesn't get
laughed at and stick with it so that it eventually becomes true and they're
becoming indoctrinated to the idea that there is always a best/favourite/...

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Vladimir Putin wins Nobel Peace Prize [message #414147 is a reply to message #414141] Fri, 22 April 2022 09:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andreas Eder is currently offline  Andreas Eder
Messages: 128
Registered: October 2012
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Senior Member
On Fr 22 Apr 2022 at 08:43, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

> On Fri, 22 Apr 2022 07:49:47 +0200
> Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> wrote:
>
>> On Do 21 Apr 2022 at 22:39, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>
>>> The core problem is the common idea that if two things are
>>> different then one must necessarily be better than the other - which is
>>> brain dead stupid and nearly universal at a gut level.
>>
>> Somehow most people do not grok partial orders.
>> They think, if there is an order, it is always total (linear).
>
> Added to that they tend to think that all differences must be
> ordered, and I think that's taught!
>
> "What's your favorite colour ?" - I was five when that question
> stumped me (so I picked black at random at got laughed at). It took many
> years to fully understand why it stumped me and I still don't understand
> why it doesn't stump *everybody* the same way. I sometimes suspect that it
> does stump everybody but they pick something at random that doesn't get
> laughed at and stick with it so that it eventually becomes true and they're
> becoming indoctrinated to the idea that there is always a best/favourite/...

You are right.
In a partial order you can have arbitrarily many maximal elements (the
best).
And I certainly perceive colours as a partial order - so there is no
single best one.

'Andreas
Re: Vladimir Putin wins Nobel Peace Prize [message #414148 is a reply to message #414147] Fri, 22 April 2022 10:44 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
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On Fri, 22 Apr 2022 15:16:53 +0200
Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> wrote:

> You are right.
> In a partial order you can have arbitrarily many maximal elements (the
> best).
> And I certainly perceive colours as a partial order - so there is no
> single best one.

Yet every infant school child winds up getting asked what their
favourite colour is. I had forgotten about it until my daughter came home
asking me the question and didn't like my answer that I didn't have a
favourite colour. She thought I *must* have a favourite and was convinced
for years that I was just refusing to tell her what it was and got quite
angry about it.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
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