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Re: Who Knew ? [message #412103] Thu, 04 November 2021 13:11 Go to next message
Quadibloc is currently offline  Quadibloc
Messages: 4399
Registered: June 2012
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Senior Member
On Wednesday, November 3, 2021 at 11:01:42 PM UTC-6, Dave Garland wrote:

> Goebbels was a good propagandist. Goering (former fighter ace) was
> more of a junkie who was self-important. His was a perceptive observation:

>> Naturally, the common people don't want war ... but after all it is the leaders
>> of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to
>> drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship,
>> or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people
>> can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you
>> have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists
>> for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same
>> in every country.

Perceptive, perhaps. But self-exculpatory, certainly.

The Nazis were _lying_ about the Jews, about Czechoslovakia, about Poland,
as they stirred up hostility in Germany to them.

The French and British governments weren't lying about Germany having
invaded Poland, a nation with large coal reserves which, if captured by
Germany, would give it a strategic advantage.

Franklin Delan Roosevelt didn't make up Pearl Harbor.

So, while the pattern Goering identified was hardly unique to the Nazi regime,
it's still true that there's a difference between aggressive countries and peaceful
ones. Democracies may stir the people up against threats that are not immediate,
but they're rather less likely to engage in blatantly aggressive wars.

John Savard
Re: Who Knew ? [message #412104 is a reply to message #412103] Thu, 04 November 2021 13:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Quadibloc is currently offline  Quadibloc
Messages: 4399
Registered: June 2012
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On Thursday, November 4, 2021 at 11:11:46 AM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:

> Franklin Delan Roosevelt didn't make up Pearl Harbor.

And neither did Franklin Delano Roosevelt, which was my point.

John Savard
Re: Who Knew ? [message #412108 is a reply to message #412103] Thu, 04 November 2021 13:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Maus

On 2021-11-04, Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 3, 2021 at 11:01:42 PM UTC-6, Dave Garland wrote:
>
>> Goebbels was a good propagandist. Goering (former fighter ace) was
>> more of a junkie who was self-important. His was a perceptive observation:
>
>>> Naturally, the common people don't want war ... but after all it is the leaders
>>> of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to
>>> drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship,
>>> or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people
>>> can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you
>>> have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists
>>> for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same
>>> in every country.
>
> Perceptive, perhaps. But self-exculpatory, certainly.
>
> The Nazis were _lying_ about the Jews, about Czechoslovakia, about Poland,
> as they stirred up hostility in Germany to them.

The Polish corridor was a problem that the natzis used as an excuse to
attack poland, but it was a real problem.

Large parts of Czechslovakian were German speaking , The Austria-Hungarian Empire,
which cz* had been created fro, was multiethnic. The German speakers
were driven out after the war, and some of them, that moved to the Ruhr
area, did very well since.
>
> The French and British governments weren't lying about Germany having
> invaded Poland, a nation with large coal reserves which, if captured by
> Germany, would give it a strategic advantage.
>
> Franklin Delan Roosevelt didn't make up Pearl Harbor.

What did he think would happen after he banned scrap iron exports to
Japan?.. The US navy should have been placed at high allert, but was
not.

(The irony was that the Japanese used some of their steel to build
superbattleships which were by then outdated)

>
> So, while the pattern Goering identified was hardly unique to the Nazi regime,
> it's still true that there's a difference between aggressive countries and peaceful
> ones. Democracies may stir the people up against threats that are not immediate,
> but they're rather less likely to engage in blatantly aggressive wars.
>
> John Savard
War is an evil, cruel thing. Remember the Delphic prophesy

"If you go to war, a great empire will be destroyed"

--
greymausg@mail.com
That's not a mousehole!
Re: Who Knew ? [message #412109 is a reply to message #412108] Thu, 04 November 2021 14:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
D.J. is currently offline  D.J.
Messages: 821
Registered: January 2012
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Senior Member
On 4 Nov 2021 17:31:46 GMT, Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> wrote:
> On 2021-11-04, Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>> On Wednesday, November 3, 2021 at 11:01:42 PM UTC-6, Dave Garland wrote:
>>
>>> Goebbels was a good propagandist. Goering (former fighter ace) was
>>> more of a junkie who was self-important. His was a perceptive observation:
>>
>>>> Naturally, the common people don't want war ... but after all it is the leaders
>>>> of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to
>>>> drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship,
>>>> or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people
>>>> can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you
>>>> have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists
>>>> for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same
>>>> in every country.
>>
>> Perceptive, perhaps. But self-exculpatory, certainly.
>>
>> The Nazis were _lying_ about the Jews, about Czechoslovakia, about Poland,
>> as they stirred up hostility in Germany to them.
>
> The Polish corridor was a problem that the natzis used as an excuse to
> attack poland, but it was a real problem.
>
> Large parts of Czechslovakian were German speaking , The Austria-Hungarian Empire,
> which cz* had been created fro, was multiethnic. The German speakers
> were driven out after the war, and some of them, that moved to the Ruhr
> area, did very well since.
>>
>> The French and British governments weren't lying about Germany having
>> invaded Poland, a nation with large coal reserves which, if captured by
>> Germany, would give it a strategic advantage.
>>
>> Franklin Delan Roosevelt didn't make up Pearl Harbor.
>
> What did he think would happen after he banned scrap iron exports to
> Japan?.. The US navy should have been placed at high allert, but was
> not.
>
> (The irony was that the Japanese used some of their steel to build
> superbattleships which were by then outdated)

[snip]

You might look up a book, I have it but don't remember the exact
title, which is basically titled 'the 31 days of January, 1941'.

Each chapter is a day in that month. It shows the US totally
unprepared, and the delusional and/or idiotic lack of preparedness on
the US West coast, and the continued lack of preparedness throughout
WW2.

The general out there, who foamed at the mouth until citizens of
Japanese ancestry were forcibly moved to concentration camps, was not
only a liar, but incompetent. Also many alerts for Japanese aircraft
that weren't there. And when Japanese submarines showed up, with
aircraft, no one seemed to notice until they left.
Re: Who Knew ? [message #412110 is a reply to message #412103] Thu, 04 November 2021 14:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Thu, 4 Nov 2021 10:11:44 -0700 (PDT)
Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

> Perceptive, perhaps. But self-exculpatory, certainly.

Hardly self-exculpatory, he was essentially admitting this:

> The Nazis were _lying_ about the Jews, about Czechoslovakia, about Poland,
> as they stirred up hostility in Germany to them.

Nothing in his statement suggested that the truth was required to
achieve the ends, only that the ends were simple to achieve by making the
right kind of statements true or not.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Who Knew ? [message #412134 is a reply to message #412108] Thu, 04 November 2021 23:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anne &amp; Lynn Wheel is currently offline  Anne &amp; Lynn Wheel
Messages: 3156
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> writes:
> What did he think would happen after he banned scrap iron exports to
> Japan?.. The US navy should have been placed at high allert, but was
> not.

Story that (asst. SECTREAS) Harry Dexter White was also operating on
behalf of Stalin ... Stalin had sent White draft of ten demands to
include in US ultimatum hoping to provoke Japan into opening a war with
US ... Stalin was already dealing with 3/4ths of German military in the
west and was worried that Japan would open a second front in the
east. Hull Note
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hull_note
Harry Dexter White & Venona intercepts
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Dexter_White#Venona_proj ect
More Venona
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venona_project
https://www.nsa.gov/news-features/declassified-documents/ven ona/

Benn Stein in "The Battle of Bretton Woods" spends pages 55-58
discussing "Operation Snow".
https://www.amazon.com/Battle-Bretton-Woods-Relations-Univer sity-ebook/dp/B00B5ZQ72Y/
pg56/loc1065-66:

The Soviets had, according to Karpov, used White to provoke Japan to
attack the United States. The scheme even had a name: "Operation Snow,"
snow referring to White.

.... snip ...

also: Another example of White acting as an agent of influence for the
Soviet Union was his obstruction of an authorized $200 million loan to
Nationalist China in 1943, which he had been officially instructed to
execute. ... contributing to Nationalist loosing China.

The Japanese Surrender in 1945 is Still Poorly Understood
https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/181372
General Dwight Eisenhower, in his memoirs, recalled a visit from
Secretary of War Henry Stimson in late July 1945: "I voiced to him my
grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already
defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and
secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world
opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no
longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. It was my belief
that Japan was, at that very moment, seeking some way to surrender with
a minimum loss of 'face.'" Eisenhower reiterated the point years later
in a Newsweek interview in 1963, saying that "the Japanese were ready to
surrender and it wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing."

.... snip ...

Mythmaking and the Atomic Destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki
https://www.counterpunch.org/2021/08/06/mythmaking-and-the-a tomic-destruction-of-hiroshima-and-nagasaki/
Reality: Hiroshima and Nagasaki were destroyed to prevent the Soviets
from making a contribution to the victory against Japan, which would
have forced Washington to allow Moscow to participate in the postwar
occupation and reconstruction of the country. It was also the intention
to intimidate the Soviet leadership and thus to wrest concessions from
it with respect to the postwar arrangements in Germany and Eastern
Europe. Finally, it was not the destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki,
but the Soviet entry into the war against Japan, which caused Tokyo to
surrender.

.... snip ...

Apparently Roosevelt didn't believe that US could defeat Japan without
Soviets and had agreement with Stalin where Soviet would come in against
Japan after the Germans had been defeated. Other reference "The Cover-Up
at Omaha Beach"
https://www.amazon.com/Cover-Up-Omaha-Beach-Rangers-Battery- ebook/dp/B00J75ISNU/

Soviets sent 1.5M troops into Manchuria and quickly defeated million
Japanese troops and were within three days of invading Japanese homeland
when the bombs were dropped.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Manchuria By comparison
US had 600k toops and battleships for Okinawa against 76k Japanese (and
US was months away from mounting a homeland invasion)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Okinawa

The War Was Won Before Hiroshima--And the Generals Who Dropped the Bomb
Knew It. Seventy years after the bombing, will Americans face the brutal
truth?
https://www.thenation.com/article/world/why-the-us-really-bo mbed-hiroshima/

--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970
Re: Who Knew ? [message #412136 is a reply to message #412108] Thu, 04 November 2021 23:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anne &amp; Lynn Wheel is currently offline  Anne &amp; Lynn Wheel
Messages: 3156
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> writes:
> (The irony was that the Japanese used some of their steel to build
> superbattleships which were by then outdated)

The Age of Battleships Is Dead and Long Gone. Battleships were mighty in
their day. But the advent of airplanes and missiles meant that such
large, lumbering warships made no sense anymore.
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/age-battleships-dea d-and-long-gone-189247

The Ultimate Battleship Battle: Japan's Yamato vs. America's Iowa. It
would have been the ultimate battle on the high seas: Yamato
vs. Iowa. Who would have won?
http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/the-ultimate-battl eship-battle-japans-yamato-vs-americas-13737
recommends Parshall's Shattered Sword: The Untold Story of the Battle of Midway
https://www.amazon.com/Shattered-Sword-Untold-Battle-Japanes e-ebook/dp/B005NIQ8SM/
pg5/loc76-78:

The battleships wouldn’t be sailing this morning. No surprise there,
joked Akagi’s crewmen–they hadn’t done anything during the entire
war. For them the battleships were irrelevant, nothing more than a
symbol of a bygone era. Worse yet, in the workaholic culture of the
Imperial Navy, which, popular lore had it, operated eight days a week,
the battleships were seen as slackers.

.... snip ...

.... several stories that the US carriers weren't at Pearl and that the
bombing of the battleships actually helped with US transition to
carriers. The real prize at Pearl which wasn't touched was the farm of
large oil tanks ... needed to fuel the carriers.

--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970
Re: Who Knew ? [message #412155 is a reply to message #412109] Fri, 05 November 2021 10:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Maus

On 2021-11-04, D.J <chucktheouch@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 4 Nov 2021 17:31:46 GMT, Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> wrote:
>> On 2021-11-04, Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, November 3, 2021 at 11:01:42 PM UTC-6, Dave Garland wrote:
>>>
>>>> Goebbels was a good propagandist. Goering (former fighter ace) was
>>>> more of a junkie who was self-important. His was a perceptive observation:
>>>
>
> You might look up a book, I have it but don't remember the exact
> title, which is basically titled 'the 31 days of January, 1941'.
>
> Each chapter is a day in that month. It shows the US totally
> unprepared, and the delusional and/or idiotic lack of preparedness on
> the US West coast, and the continued lack of preparedness throughout
> WW2.
>
> The general out there, who foamed at the mouth until citizens of
> Japanese ancestry were forcibly moved to concentration camps, was not
> only a liar, but incompetent. Also many alerts for Japanese aircraft
> that weren't there. And when Japanese submarines showed up, with
> aircraft, no one seemed to notice until they left.

I was a member of the local history club. I gave up, because when I was
growing up, I had heard of what really happened from old people around,
from all sides. A lot of that has been officially scrambled into an
approved fform as the old people died off, that would have known the
real stories.

History repeats itself. The current fashion of using the cloud for back
resembles the time at the birth of the `micros', when IBM wanted them to
be parts of an official network, and Microsoft took over the business.

The recent exit from Kabul reminded me of the stories of the time the British pulled out
of Dublin, and a varied group of people tried to get out at the same
time.


--
greymausg@mail.com
That's not a mousehole!
Re: Who Knew ? [message #412156 is a reply to message #412134] Fri, 05 November 2021 11:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Maus

On 2021-11-05, Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> wrote:
> Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> writes:
>> What did he think would happen after he banned scrap iron exports to
>> Japan?.. The US navy should have been placed at high allert, but was
>> not.
>
> Story that (asst. SECTREAS) Harry Dexter White was also operating on
> behalf of Stalin ... Stalin had sent White draft of ten demands to
> include in US ultimatum hoping to provoke Japan into opening a war with
> US ... Stalin was already dealing with 3/4ths of German military in the
> west and was worried that Japan would open a second front in the
> east. Hull Note
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hull_note
> Harry Dexter White & Venona intercepts
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Dexter_White#Venona_proj ect
> More Venona
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venona_project
> https://www.nsa.gov/news-features/declassified-documents/ven ona/
>
> Benn Stein in "The Battle of Bretton Woods" spends pages 55-58
> discussing "Operation Snow".
> https://www.amazon.com/Battle-Bretton-Woods-Relations-Univer sity-ebook/dp/B00B5ZQ72Y/
> pg56/loc1065-66:
>
> The Soviets had, according to Karpov, used White to provoke Japan to
> attack the United States. The scheme even had a name: "Operation Snow,"
> snow referring to White.
>
> ... snip ...
>
> also: Another example of White acting as an agent of influence for the
> Soviet Union was his obstruction of an authorized $200 million loan to
> Nationalist China in 1943, which he had been officially instructed to
> execute. ... contributing to Nationalist loosing China.
>

Good to hear from ye again.! (I wonder how /BAH is?.)

Decisive point in WWII was first week of December, when germans had to
retreat from Moscow. All after that was just delay from the inevitable.
Hitler tried to emulate Frederic Gross's successful seven years awar.
Frederic was a competant man, Hitler was an insane bigot.


--
greymausg@mail.com
That's not a mousehole!
Re: Who Knew ? [message #412166 is a reply to message #412136] Fri, 05 November 2021 13:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Thu, 04 Nov 2021 17:53:39 -1000, Anne & Lynn Wheeler
<lynn@garlic.com> wrote:

> Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> writes:
>> (The irony was that the Japanese used some of their steel to build
>> superbattleships which were by then outdated)
>
> The Age of Battleships Is Dead and Long Gone. Battleships were mighty in
> their day. But the advent of airplanes and missiles meant that such
> large, lumbering warships made no sense anymore.
> https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/age-battleships-dea d-and-long-gone-189247
>
> The Ultimate Battleship Battle: Japan's Yamato vs. America's Iowa. It
> would have been the ultimate battle on the high seas: Yamato
> vs. Iowa. Who would have won?
> http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/the-ultimate-battl eship-battle-japans-yamato-vs-americas-13737
> recommends Parshall's Shattered Sword: The Untold Story of the Battle of Midway
> https://www.amazon.com/Shattered-Sword-Untold-Battle-Japanes e-ebook/dp/B005NIQ8SM/
> pg5/loc76-78:
>
> The battleships wouldn’t be sailing this morning. No surprise there,
> joked Akagi’s crewmen–they hadn’t done anything during the entire
> war. For them the battleships were irrelevant, nothing more than a
> symbol of a bygone era. Worse yet, in the workaholic culture of the
> Imperial Navy, which, popular lore had it, operated eight days a week,
> the battleships were seen as slackers.
>
> ... snip ...
>
> ... several stories that the US carriers weren't at Pearl and that the
> bombing of the battleships actually helped with US transition to
> carriers. The real prize at Pearl which wasn't touched was the farm of
> large oil tanks ... needed to fuel the carriers.

And the battleships, and the cruiser, and the destroyers, and the LSTs
and the LSMs and the Liberty ships and the Victory ships and just
about everything else.
Re: Who Knew ? [message #412172 is a reply to message #412108] Fri, 05 November 2021 15:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> wrote:
> On 2021-11-04, Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>> On Wednesday, November 3, 2021 at 11:01:42 PM UTC-6, Dave Garland wrote:
>>
>>> Goebbels was a good propagandist. Goering (former fighter ace) was
>>> more of a junkie who was self-important. His was a perceptive observation:
>>
>>>> Naturally, the common people don't want war ... but after all it is the leaders
>>>> of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to
>>>> drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship,
>>>> or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people
>>>> can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you
>>>> have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists
>>>> for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same
>>>> in every country.
>>
>> Perceptive, perhaps. But self-exculpatory, certainly.
>>
>> The Nazis were _lying_ about the Jews, about Czechoslovakia, about Poland,
>> as they stirred up hostility in Germany to them.
>
> The Polish corridor was a problem that the natzis used as an excuse to
> attack poland, but it was a real problem.
>
> Large parts of Czechslovakian were German speaking , The Austria-Hungarian Empire,
> which cz* had been created fro, was multiethnic. The German speakers
> were driven out after the war, and some of them, that moved to the Ruhr
> area, did very well since.
>>
>> The French and British governments weren't lying about Germany having
>> invaded Poland, a nation with large coal reserves which, if captured by
>> Germany, would give it a strategic advantage.
>>
>> Franklin Delan Roosevelt didn't make up Pearl Harbor.
>
> What did he think would happen after he banned scrap iron exports to
> Japan?.. The US navy should have been placed at high allert, but was
> not.

Currently reading _Midway_ by the Japanese officer who led the attack on
Pearl Harbor, and he said oil was a bigger problem than steel.

>
> (The irony was that the Japanese used some of their steel to build
> superbattleships which were by then outdated)
>
>>
>> So, while the pattern Goering identified was hardly unique to the Nazi regime,
>> it's still true that there's a difference between aggressive countries and peaceful
>> ones. Democracies may stir the people up against threats that are not immediate,
>> but they're rather less likely to engage in blatantly aggressive wars.
>>
>> John Savard
> War is an evil, cruel thing. Remember the Delphic prophesy
>
> "If you go to war, a great empire will be destroyed"
>



--
Pete
Re: Who Knew ? [message #412174 is a reply to message #412134] Fri, 05 November 2021 15:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> wrote:
> Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> writes:
>> What did he think would happen after he banned scrap iron exports to
>> Japan?.. The US navy should have been placed at high allert, but was
>> not.
>
> Story that (asst. SECTREAS) Harry Dexter White was also operating on
> behalf of Stalin ... Stalin had sent White draft of ten demands to
> include in US ultimatum hoping to provoke Japan into opening a war with
> US ... Stalin was already dealing with 3/4ths of German military in the
> west and was worried that Japan would open a second front in the
> east.

From _Midway_, it appears the Japanese were just waiting for a German
victory in the Caucus or the Middle East to link up with them and open a
second front.

--
Pete
Re: Who Knew ? [message #412175 is a reply to message #412136] Fri, 05 November 2021 15:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> wrote:
>
> ... several stories that the US carriers weren't at Pearl and that the
> bombing of the battleships actually helped with US transition to
> carriers. The real prize at Pearl which wasn't touched was the farm of
> large oil tanks ... needed to fuel the carriers.
>

I was hoping for an explanation of why, but didn’t get one. I guess the
Japanese expected to get our carriers, in which case the oil would be
secondary. They probably planned to attack them in the second wave, which
never happened.



--
Pete
Re: Who Knew ? [message #412179 is a reply to message #412174] Fri, 05 November 2021 15:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
D.J. is currently offline  D.J.
Messages: 821
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Fri, 5 Nov 2021 12:28:17 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> wrote:
>> Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> writes:
>>> What did he think would happen after he banned scrap iron exports to
>>> Japan?.. The US navy should have been placed at high allert, but was
>>> not.
>>
>> Story that (asst. SECTREAS) Harry Dexter White was also operating on
>> behalf of Stalin ... Stalin had sent White draft of ten demands to
>> include in US ultimatum hoping to provoke Japan into opening a war with
>> US ... Stalin was already dealing with 3/4ths of German military in the
>> west and was worried that Japan would open a second front in the
>> east.
>
> From _Midway_, it appears the Japanese were just waiting for a German
> victory in the Caucus or the Middle East to link up with them and open a
> second front.

Japan attacked India, and Germany attack Egypt. From what I have read,
that is the direction they were going to do the link up.
Re: Who Knew ? [message #412182 is a reply to message #412175] Fri, 05 November 2021 16:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anne &amp; Lynn Wheel is currently offline  Anne &amp; Lynn Wheel
Messages: 3156
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
> I was hoping for an explanation of why, but didn’t get one. I guess the
> Japanese expected to get our carriers, in which case the oil would be
> secondary. They probably planned to attack them in the second wave, which
> never happened.

.... after finding the US carriers weren't in port, the Japanese carriers
fleeing to the north from Hawaii, were lucky because the US carriers had
started hunting west of the islands

--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970
Re: Who Knew ? [message #412186 is a reply to message #412175] Fri, 05 November 2021 17:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Fri, 5 Nov 2021 12:28:18 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> wrote:
>>
>> ... several stories that the US carriers weren't at Pearl and that the
>> bombing of the battleships actually helped with US transition to
>> carriers. The real prize at Pearl which wasn't touched was the farm of
>> large oil tanks ... needed to fuel the carriers.
>>
>
> I was hoping for an explanation of why, but didn’t get one. I guess the
> Japanese expected to get our carriers, in which case the oil would be
> secondary. They probably planned to attack them in the second wave, which
> never happened.

The problem was that Nagumo knew there were three carriers out there
somewhere. Were they hunting him?
Re: Who Knew ? [message #412188 is a reply to message #412175] Fri, 05 November 2021 18:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Maus

On 2021-11-05, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> wrote:
>>
>> ... several stories that the US carriers weren't at Pearl and that the
>> bombing of the battleships actually helped with US transition to
>> carriers. The real prize at Pearl which wasn't touched was the farm of
>> large oil tanks ... needed to fuel the carriers.
>>
>
> I was hoping for an explanation of why, but didn’t get one. I guess the
> Japanese expected to get our carriers, in which case the oil would be
> secondary. They probably planned to attack them in the second wave, which
> never happened.
>
>
>

I note that the Japanese navy are building their first carrier since
WWII


--
greymausg@mail.com
That's not a mousehole!
Re: Who Knew ? [message #412192 is a reply to message #412186] Fri, 05 November 2021 18:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 5 Nov 2021 12:28:18 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> ... several stories that the US carriers weren't at Pearl and that the
>>> bombing of the battleships actually helped with US transition to
>>> carriers. The real prize at Pearl which wasn't touched was the farm of
>>> large oil tanks ... needed to fuel the carriers.
>>>
>>
>> I was hoping for an explanation of why, but didn’t get one. I guess the
>> Japanese expected to get our carriers, in which case the oil would be
>> secondary. They probably planned to attack them in the second wave, which
>> never happened.
>
> The problem was that Nagumo knew there were three carriers out there
> somewhere. Were they hunting him?
>

The pilots wanted the second strike, but Nagumo overruled them. I guess 80
years is long enough that I can talk about this dispassionately. I probably
won’t be here to talk about 9/11 without anger.

--
Pete
Re: Who Knew ? [message #412194 is a reply to message #412188] Fri, 05 November 2021 18:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> wrote:
> On 2021-11-05, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> ... several stories that the US carriers weren't at Pearl and that the
>>> bombing of the battleships actually helped with US transition to
>>> carriers. The real prize at Pearl which wasn't touched was the farm of
>>> large oil tanks ... needed to fuel the carriers.
>>>
>>
>> I was hoping for an explanation of why, but didn’t get one. I guess the
>> Japanese expected to get our carriers, in which case the oil would be
>> secondary. They probably planned to attack them in the second wave, which
>> never happened.
>>
>>
>>
>
> I note that the Japanese navy are building their first carrier since
> WWII
>
>

They’ve resurrected the name Kaga for the first one. I hope things turn out
better this time.

--
Pete
Re: Who Knew ? [message #412196 is a reply to message #412192] Fri, 05 November 2021 19:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Fri, 5 Nov 2021 15:55:52 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 5 Nov 2021 12:28:18 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> ... several stories that the US carriers weren't at Pearl and that the
>>>> bombing of the battleships actually helped with US transition to
>>>> carriers. The real prize at Pearl which wasn't touched was the farm of
>>>> large oil tanks ... needed to fuel the carriers.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I was hoping for an explanation of why, but didn’t get one. I guess the
>>> Japanese expected to get our carriers, in which case the oil would be
>>> secondary. They probably planned to attack them in the second wave, which
>>> never happened.
>>
>> The problem was that Nagumo knew there were three carriers out there
>> somewhere. Were they hunting him?
>>
>
> The pilots wanted the second strike, but Nagumo overruled them. I guess 80
> years is long enough that I can talk about this dispassionately. I probably
> won’t be here to talk about 9/11 without anger.

Third strike. There were two strikes. The third was called off due
to shortage of fuel, concern about the increasing effectiveness of the
defenses, being within range of land-based air, and the question of
where the carriers were.
Re: Who Knew ? [message #412207 is a reply to message #412182] Sat, 06 November 2021 11:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Robert Swindells is currently offline  Robert Swindells
Messages: 44
Registered: August 2012
Karma: 0
Member
On Fri, 05 Nov 2021 10:06:08 -1000, Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote:

> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>> I was hoping for an explanation of why, but didn’t get one. I guess the
>> Japanese expected to get our carriers, in which case the oil would be
>> secondary. They probably planned to attack them in the second wave,
>> which never happened.
>
> ... after finding the US carriers weren't in port, the Japanese carriers
> fleeing to the north from Hawaii, were lucky because the US carriers had
> started hunting west of the islands

The US carriers were lucky that they didn't find the Japanese fleet.

US carrier aircraft then were much less advanced than the ones shot down
at Midway.

In contrast, the Indian Ocean Raid is usually presented as a lucky escape
for the Royal Navy but it had a lot of experience of doing radar guided
night attacks and fighter interceptions by that stage of the war.
Re: Who Knew ? [message #412210 is a reply to message #412196] Sat, 06 November 2021 13:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
D.J. is currently offline  D.J.
Messages: 821
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Fri, 05 Nov 2021 19:33:20 -0400, J. Clarke
<jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 5 Nov 2021 15:55:52 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 5 Nov 2021 12:28:18 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > ... several stories that the US carriers weren't at Pearl and that the
>>>> > bombing of the battleships actually helped with US transition to
>>>> > carriers. The real prize at Pearl which wasn't touched was the farm of
>>>> > large oil tanks ... needed to fuel the carriers.
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> I was hoping for an explanation of why, but didn’t get one. I guess the
>>>> Japanese expected to get our carriers, in which case the oil would be
>>>> secondary. They probably planned to attack them in the second wave, which
>>>> never happened.
>>>
>>> The problem was that Nagumo knew there were three carriers out there
>>> somewhere. Were they hunting him?
>>>
>>
>> The pilots wanted the second strike, but Nagumo overruled them. I guess 80
>> years is long enough that I can talk about this dispassionately. I probably
>> won’t be here to talk about 9/11 without anger.
>
> Third strike. There were two strikes. The third was called off due
> to shortage of fuel, concern about the increasing effectiveness of the
> defenses, being within range of land-based air, and the question of
> where the carriers were.

He also said that they had lost the element of surprise. 29 IJN
aircraft were shot down. A third strike would have resulted in more.
Re: Who Knew ? [message #412211 is a reply to message #412192] Sat, 06 November 2021 14:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anne &amp; Lynn Wheel is currently offline  Anne &amp; Lynn Wheel
Messages: 3156
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
> The pilots wanted the second strike, but Nagumo overruled them. I
> guess 80 years is long enough that I can talk about this
> dispassionately. I probably won’t be here to talk about 9/11 without
> anger.


After 9/11, the U.S. Got Almost Everything Wrong. A mission to rid the
world of "terror" and "evil" led America in tragic directions.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/09/after-911- everything-wrong-war-terror/620008/
9/11 Had Nothing to Do with Afghanistan
https://www.counterpunch.org/2021/08/06/9-11-had-nothing-to- do-with-afghanistan/
The Afghanistan Papers: A Secret History of the War
https://www.amazon.com/Afghanistan-Papers-Secret-History-War -ebook/dp/B08VJLJ56L/
Democratic senators increase pressure to declassify 9/11 documents
related to Saudi role in attacks
https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/566547-democrat ic-senators-increase-pressure-to-declassify-9-11-documents
Democratic senators and families of victims of the 9/11 attacks called
on Thursday for the Biden administration to declassify and make
available key documents related to Saudi Arabia's role in the terrorist
attacks, ahead of the 20th anniversary commemorating the tragedy.

.... snip ...

.... from truth is stranger than fiction and law of unintended
consequences that come back to bite you, much of the radical Islam &
ISIS can be considered our own fault, former CIA director and VP Bush in
the 80s
https://www.amazon.com/Family-Secrets-Americas-Invisible-Gov ernment-ebook/dp/B003NSBMNA/
pg292/loc6057-59:
There was also a calculated decision to use the Saudis as surrogates in
the cold war. The United States actually encouraged Saudi efforts to
spread the extremist Wahhabi form of Islam as a way of stirring up large
Muslim communities in Soviet-controlled countries. (It didn't hurt that
Muslim Soviet Asia contained what were believed to be the world's
largest undeveloped reserves of oil.)

.... snip ...

Saudi radical extremist Islam/Wahhabi loosened on the world ... bin
Laden & 15of16 9/11 were Saudis (some claims that 95% of extreme Islam
world terrorism is Wahhabi related)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabism

Mattis somewhat more PC (political correct)
https://www.amazon.com/Call-Sign-Chaos-Learning-Lead-ebook/d p/B07SBRFVNH/
pg21/loc349-51:
Ayatollah Khomeini's revolutionary regime took hold in Iran by ousting
the Shah and swearing hostility against the United States. That same
year, the Soviet Union was pouring troops into Afghanistan to prop up a
pro-Russian government that was opposed by Sunni Islamist
fundamentalists and tribal factions. The United States was supporting
Saudi Arabia's involvement in forming a counterweight to Soviet
influence.

.... snip ...

and internal CIA
https://www.amazon.com/Permanent-Record-Edward-Snowden-ebook /dp/B07STQPGH6/
pg133/loc1916-17:
But al-Qaeda did maintain unusually close ties with our allies the
Saudis, a fact that the Bush White House worked suspiciously hard to
suppress as we went to war with two other countries.

.... snip ...

The Accumulated Evil of the Whole: That time Bush and Co. made the
September 11 Attacks a Pretext for War on Iraq
https://www.juancole.com/2021/09/accumulated-september-prete xt.html
Before the Iraq invasion, the cousin of white house chief of staff Card
.... was dealing with the Iraqis at the UN and was given evidence that
WMDs (tracing back to US in the Iran/Iraq war) had been
decommissioned. the cousin shared it with (cousin, white house chief of
staff) Card and others ... then is locked up in military hospital, book
was published in 2010 (4yrs before decommissioned WMDs were
declassified)
https://www.amazon.com/EXTREME-PREJUDICE-Terrifying-Story-Pa triot-ebook/dp/B004HYHBK2/
NY Times series from 2014, the decommission WMDs (tracing back to US
from Iran/Iraq war), had been found early in the invasion, but the
information was classified for a decade
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/10/14/world/middleea st/us-casualties-of-iraq-chemical-weapons.html

CIA Director Colby wouldn't approve the "Team B" analysis (exaggerated
USSR military capability) and Rumsfeld got Colby replaced with Bush, who
would approve "Team B" analysis (justifying huge DOD spending increase),
after Rumsfeld replaces Colby, he resigns as white house chief of staff
to become SECDEF (and is replaced by his assistant Cheney)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team_B
former CIA director H.W. is VP, he and Rumsfeld are involved in
supporting Iraq in the Iran/Iraq war
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_War
including WMDs (note picture of Rumsfeld with Saddam)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Iraq_ during_the_Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_war
VP and former CIA director repeatedly claims no knowledge of
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Contra_affair
because he was fulltime administration point person deregulating
financial industry ... creating S&L crisis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savings_and_loan_crisis along with other
members of his family
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savings_and_loan_crisis#Silvera do_Savings_and_Loan
and another
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0CE0D81E3BF 937A25753C1A966958260

In the early 90s, H.W. is president and Cheney is SECDEF. Sat. photo
recon analyst told white house that Saddam was marshaling forces to
invade Kuwait. White house said that Saddam would do no such thing and
proceeded to discredit the analyst. Later the analyst informed the white
house that Saddam was marshaling forces to invade Saudi Arabia, now the
white house has to choose between Saddam and the Saudis.
https://www.amazon.com/Long-Strange-Journey-Intelligence-ebo ok/dp/B004NNV5H2/
.... roll forward ... Bush2 is president and presides over the huge cut
in taxes, huge increase in spending, explosion in debt, the economic
mess (70 times larger than his faster's S&L crises) and the forever
wars, Cheney is VP, Rumsfeld is SECDEF and one of the Team B members is
deputy SECDEF (and major architect of Iraq policy).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Wolfowitz

turn of century, the military-industrial complex had wanted a war so
badly that corporate reps were telling former eastern block countries
that if they voted for IRAQ2 invasion in the UN, they would get
membership in NATO and (directed appropriation) USAID (can *ONLY* be
used for purchase of modern US arms, aka additional congressional gifts
to MIC complex not in DOD budget). From the law of unintended
consequences, the invaders were told to bypass ammo dumps looking for
WMDs, when they got around to going back, over a million metric tons had
evaporated (showing up later in IEDs)
https://www.amazon.com/Prophets-War-Lockheed-Military-Indust rial-ebook/dp/B0047T86BA/

.... kicking hundreds of thousands of former soldiers out on the streets
spawned ISIS ... and bypassing the ammo dumps (looking for
fictitious/fabricated WMDs) gave them over a million metric tons.

Ghost Riders of Baghdad: Soldiers, Civilians, and the Myth of the Surge
https://www.amazon.com/Ghost-Riders-Baghdad-Soldiers-Civilia ns-ebook/dp/B014PWVUAC/
pg111/loc2179-82:
The backstory to all this is well reported. The Bush administration
appointed hundreds of politically loyal neoconservative bureaucrats to
run postwar Iraq, including the top civilian official--L. Paul
Bremer. Bremer, heavily influenced by Iraqi exiles like Ahmed Chalabi
and supported by Vice President Dick Cheney, implemented a policy of
de-Baathification.

pg111/loc2193-95:
On 16 April 2003, Bremer, against the advice of Colin Powell's State
Department and the Central Intelligence Agency, disbanded the Iraqi
Army. 16 This seemingly simple decision placed a few hundred thousand
unemployed young men back on the street with no effective reintegration
strategy. pg171/loc3246-49: All this talk of "what-ifs" and lost Surge
opportunities ignores one salient, if uncomfortable, fact: ISIS is an
outgrowth of our own invasion. Operation Iraqi Freedom (OIF--as we
gleefully named it) was more than just an awful euphemism; it spelled
catastrophe--and chaos--for most Iraqis.

.... snip ...

--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970
Re: Who Knew ? [message #412214 is a reply to message #412210] Sat, 06 November 2021 14:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Sat, 06 Nov 2021 12:17:30 -0500, D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Fri, 05 Nov 2021 19:33:20 -0400, J. Clarke
> <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 5 Nov 2021 15:55:52 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 5 Nov 2021 12:28:18 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> ... several stories that the US carriers weren't at Pearl and that the
>>>> >> bombing of the battleships actually helped with US transition to
>>>> >> carriers. The real prize at Pearl which wasn't touched was the farm of
>>>> >> large oil tanks ... needed to fuel the carriers.
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> > I was hoping for an explanation of why, but didn’t get one. I guess the
>>>> > Japanese expected to get our carriers, in which case the oil would be
>>>> > secondary. They probably planned to attack them in the second wave, which
>>>> > never happened.
>>>>
>>>> The problem was that Nagumo knew there were three carriers out there
>>>> somewhere. Were they hunting him?
>>>>
>>>
>>> The pilots wanted the second strike, but Nagumo overruled them. I guess 80
>>> years is long enough that I can talk about this dispassionately. I probably
>>> won’t be here to talk about 9/11 without anger.
>>
>> Third strike. There were two strikes. The third was called off due
>> to shortage of fuel, concern about the increasing effectiveness of the
>> defenses, being within range of land-based air, and the question of
>> where the carriers were.
>
> He also said that they had lost the element of surprise. 29 IJN
> aircraft were shot down. A third strike would have resulted in more.

And there were unknowns. The Japanese did not know what an utter
piece of crap the Brewster Buffalo was or how poorly B-17s performed
when attacking warships to give two examples.
Re: Who Knew ? [message #412216 is a reply to message #412214] Sat, 06 November 2021 16:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
D.J. is currently offline  D.J.
Messages: 821
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Sat, 06 Nov 2021 14:45:45 -0400, J. Clarke
<jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 06 Nov 2021 12:17:30 -0500, D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 05 Nov 2021 19:33:20 -0400, J. Clarke
>> <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 5 Nov 2021 15:55:52 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> > On Fri, 5 Nov 2021 12:28:18 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
>>>> > wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> ... several stories that the US carriers weren't at Pearl and that the
>>>> >>> bombing of the battleships actually helped with US transition to
>>>> >>> carriers. The real prize at Pearl which wasn't touched was the farm of
>>>> >>> large oil tanks ... needed to fuel the carriers.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I was hoping for an explanation of why, but didn’t get one. I guess the
>>>> >> Japanese expected to get our carriers, in which case the oil would be
>>>> >> secondary. They probably planned to attack them in the second wave, which
>>>> >> never happened.
>>>> >
>>>> > The problem was that Nagumo knew there were three carriers out there
>>>> > somewhere. Were they hunting him?
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> The pilots wanted the second strike, but Nagumo overruled them. I guess 80
>>>> years is long enough that I can talk about this dispassionately. I probably
>>>> won’t be here to talk about 9/11 without anger.
>>>
>>> Third strike. There were two strikes. The third was called off due
>>> to shortage of fuel, concern about the increasing effectiveness of the
>>> defenses, being within range of land-based air, and the question of
>>> where the carriers were.
>>
>> He also said that they had lost the element of surprise. 29 IJN
>> aircraft were shot down. A third strike would have resulted in more.
>
> And there were unknowns. The Japanese did not know what an utter
> piece of crap the Brewster Buffalo was or how poorly B-17s performed
> when attacking warships to give two examples.

They learned at Midway. All of the Marine fighter pilots who flew
thgat crappy aircraft were shot down by Zeros.

Admiral Morison, in his set 'The Official Hostory of the US Navy in
WW2', stated the Brewster Buffalo should never have been flown in
combat air against Zeros.
Re: Who Knew ? [message #412218 is a reply to message #412216] Sat, 06 November 2021 18:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Sat, 06 Nov 2021 15:28:40 -0500, D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Sat, 06 Nov 2021 14:45:45 -0400, J. Clarke
> <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 06 Nov 2021 12:17:30 -0500, D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 05 Nov 2021 19:33:20 -0400, J. Clarke
>>> <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 5 Nov 2021 15:55:52 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >> On Fri, 5 Nov 2021 12:28:18 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
>>>> >> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> ... several stories that the US carriers weren't at Pearl and that the
>>>> >>>> bombing of the battleships actually helped with US transition to
>>>> >>>> carriers. The real prize at Pearl which wasn't touched was the farm of
>>>> >>>> large oil tanks ... needed to fuel the carriers.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> I was hoping for an explanation of why, but didn’t get one. I guess the
>>>> >>> Japanese expected to get our carriers, in which case the oil would be
>>>> >>> secondary. They probably planned to attack them in the second wave, which
>>>> >>> never happened.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> The problem was that Nagumo knew there were three carriers out there
>>>> >> somewhere. Were they hunting him?
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> >The pilots wanted the second strike, but Nagumo overruled them. I guess 80
>>>> >years is long enough that I can talk about this dispassionately. I probably
>>>> >won’t be here to talk about 9/11 without anger.
>>>>
>>>> Third strike. There were two strikes. The third was called off due
>>>> to shortage of fuel, concern about the increasing effectiveness of the
>>>> defenses, being within range of land-based air, and the question of
>>>> where the carriers were.
>>>
>>> He also said that they had lost the element of surprise. 29 IJN
>>> aircraft were shot down. A third strike would have resulted in more.
>>
>> And there were unknowns. The Japanese did not know what an utter
>> piece of crap the Brewster Buffalo was or how poorly B-17s performed
>> when attacking warships to give two examples.
>
> They learned at Midway. All of the Marine fighter pilots who flew
> thgat crappy aircraft were shot down by Zeros.

That was six months after Pearl Harbor and the Buffalo was already
being retired. Remember, the Japanese _lost_ Midway and lost badly.

> Admiral Morison, in his set 'The Official Hostory of the US Navy in
> WW2', stated the Brewster Buffalo should never have been flown in
> combat air against Zeros.

That's the flip side. Nobody on the US side had any clue how good the
Japanese were at a lot of things.
Re: Who Knew ? [message #412219 is a reply to message #412103] Sat, 06 November 2021 20:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: 711 Spooky Mart

On 11/4/21 12:11 PM, Quadibloc wrote:

[...]

> Franklin Delan Roosevelt didn't make up Pearl Harbor.

But he did help plan and orchestrate Pearl Harbor. You obviously have no
idea how war actually worked in those days.

Von Clauzewitz : War is politics by other means.
Sun Tzu : The best general has defeated his enemy before the war begins.

What does this mean? It means the wars are planned well in advance of
any actual casus belli. Wars don't just "happen." They are not the
result of one country stepping on another country's toes. They are part
of long-term economic planning cooperation between all sides involved.

When you see "coalition" forces of multiple countries, this means the
country they are attacking has failed to follow the agreed war theatre
plan. They go in and take out the persons who reneged on the plan
(Saddam, Gadafi, Taliban) then divide the spoils. Occasionally someone
rises to power who says, "I'm no longer working with your new world
order," so the coalition forces of "liberators" invade to take that
person out, and force the country back into the economic plan.

The elites and aristocrats on all sides in the conflict agree to war
long in advance, and agree how they are going to reduce the population,
and divide up the economic spoils, before the saber-rattling theatre begins.

The commies in the state department, the Iranian
Ayatolas, the Israeli leaders, the Russians, are all on the same team.
Everything that you see is theatre. They all have the same goals. You're
just cattle to them, to be decieved, used, and culled in engineered and
well-planned conflicts.

Before the USA invades a country they spend a decade or more
infiltrating the target country with their agents and provocateurs, to
destablize the country, then create pretextual acts for causus belli.

If the USA really ever condsidered Russia its enemy, there would have
been zero diplomatic relations, and USA would have had its own Atlantic
curtain blocking out all access to the country, to protect the people.

The same way that cops infiltrate protests as agent provocateurs, the
war hawks infiltrate countries years in advance of planned wars, to
agitate circumstances to bring the war about.

Meanwhile you think it is your team vs their team. It's all theatre,
from all sides involved. Yes it is this cynical, and yes, all your
leaders are this evil.

--
──┏━━━━┓──┏━━┓───┏━━ ┓── ┌─────────────────── ─────┐ ┌────────┐
──┗━━┓─┃──┗┓─┃───┗┓─ ┃── │ Spooky Mart [chan] 711 │ │ always │
─────┃─┃──┏┛─┗┓──┏┛─ ┗┓─ │ https://bitmessage.org │ │ open │
─────┗━┛──┗━━━┛──┗━━ ━┛─ └─────────────────── ─────┘ └────────┘
Re: Who Knew ? [message #412223 is a reply to message #412219] Sun, 07 November 2021 06:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: gareth evans

On 07/11/2021 00:25, 711 Spooky Mart wrote:
> ... Occasionally someone
> rises to power who says, "I'm no longer working with your new world
> order," so the coalition forces of "liberators" invade to take that
> person out, and force the country back into the economic plan.

The aggression of the French towards the British following from Brexit?
Re: Who Knew ? [message #412232 is a reply to message #412218] Sun, 07 November 2021 09:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
D.J. is currently offline  D.J.
Messages: 821
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Sat, 06 Nov 2021 18:52:27 -0400, J. Clarke
<jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 06 Nov 2021 15:28:40 -0500, D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 06 Nov 2021 14:45:45 -0400, J. Clarke
>> <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 06 Nov 2021 12:17:30 -0500, D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 05 Nov 2021 19:33:20 -0400, J. Clarke
>>>> <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >On Fri, 5 Nov 2021 15:55:52 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
>>>> >wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >>J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>> On Fri, 5 Nov 2021 12:28:18 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
>>>> >>> wrote:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> ... several stories that the US carriers weren't at Pearl and that the
>>>> >>>>> bombing of the battleships actually helped with US transition to
>>>> >>>>> carriers. The real prize at Pearl which wasn't touched was the farm of
>>>> >>>>> large oil tanks ... needed to fuel the carriers.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> I was hoping for an explanation of why, but didn’t get one. I guess the
>>>> >>>> Japanese expected to get our carriers, in which case the oil would be
>>>> >>>> secondary. They probably planned to attack them in the second wave, which
>>>> >>>> never happened.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> The problem was that Nagumo knew there were three carriers out there
>>>> >>> somewhere. Were they hunting him?
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>The pilots wanted the second strike, but Nagumo overruled them. I guess 80
>>>> >>years is long enough that I can talk about this dispassionately. I probably
>>>> >>won’t be here to talk about 9/11 without anger.
>>>> >
>>>> >Third strike. There were two strikes. The third was called off due
>>>> >to shortage of fuel, concern about the increasing effectiveness of the
>>>> >defenses, being within range of land-based air, and the question of
>>>> >where the carriers were.
>>>>
>>>> He also said that they had lost the element of surprise. 29 IJN
>>>> aircraft were shot down. A third strike would have resulted in more.
>>>
>>> And there were unknowns. The Japanese did not know what an utter
>>> piece of crap the Brewster Buffalo was or how poorly B-17s performed
>>> when attacking warships to give two examples.
>>
>> They learned at Midway. All of the Marine fighter pilots who flew
>> thgat crappy aircraft were shot down by Zeros.
>
> That was six months after Pearl Harbor and the Buffalo was already
> being retired. Remember, the Japanese _lost_ Midway and lost badly.

And yet, an entire Marine squadron lost their lives due to those
obsolecent aircraft.

>> Admiral Morison, in his set 'The Official Hostory of the US Navy in
>> WW2', stated the Brewster Buffalo should never have been flown in
>> combat air against Zeros.
>
> That's the flip side. Nobody on the US side had any clue how good the
> Japanese were at a lot of things.

The Flying Tigers sent information back to the Department of Defense
about the Zeros. The informaiton was supposedly lost.
Re: Who Knew ? [message #412233 is a reply to message #412219] Sun, 07 November 2021 09:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
D.J. is currently offline  D.J.
Messages: 821
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Sat, 6 Nov 2021 19:25:24 -0500, 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart>
wrote:
> On 11/4/21 12:11 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> Franklin Delan Roosevelt didn't make up Pearl Harbor.
>
> But he did help plan and orchestrate Pearl Harbor. You obviously have no
> idea how war actually worked in those days.
>
> Von Clauzewitz : War is politics by other means.
> Sun Tzu : The best general has defeated his enemy before the war begins.
>
> What does this mean? It means the wars are planned well in advance of
> any actual casus belli. Wars don't just "happen." They are not the
> result of one country stepping on another country's toes. They are part
> of long-term economic planning cooperation between all sides involved.

Nonsense. That sounds like a conspiracy theory.
Re: Who Knew ? [message #412234 is a reply to message #412232] Sun, 07 November 2021 10:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Sun, 07 Nov 2021 08:54:06 -0600, D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Sat, 06 Nov 2021 18:52:27 -0400, J. Clarke
> <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 06 Nov 2021 15:28:40 -0500, D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 06 Nov 2021 14:45:45 -0400, J. Clarke
>>> <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 06 Nov 2021 12:17:30 -0500, D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >On Fri, 05 Nov 2021 19:33:20 -0400, J. Clarke
>>>> ><jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>On Fri, 5 Nov 2021 15:55:52 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
>>>> >>wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>>J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>> On Fri, 5 Nov 2021 12:28:18 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
>>>> >>>> wrote:
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>> Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> ... several stories that the US carriers weren't at Pearl and that the
>>>> >>>>>> bombing of the battleships actually helped with US transition to
>>>> >>>>>> carriers. The real prize at Pearl which wasn't touched was the farm of
>>>> >>>>>> large oil tanks ... needed to fuel the carriers.
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> I was hoping for an explanation of why, but didn’t get one. I guess the
>>>> >>>>> Japanese expected to get our carriers, in which case the oil would be
>>>> >>>>> secondary. They probably planned to attack them in the second wave, which
>>>> >>>>> never happened.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> The problem was that Nagumo knew there were three carriers out there
>>>> >>>> somewhere. Were they hunting him?
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>The pilots wanted the second strike, but Nagumo overruled them. I guess 80
>>>> >>>years is long enough that I can talk about this dispassionately. I probably
>>>> >>>won’t be here to talk about 9/11 without anger.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>Third strike. There were two strikes. The third was called off due
>>>> >>to shortage of fuel, concern about the increasing effectiveness of the
>>>> >>defenses, being within range of land-based air, and the question of
>>>> >>where the carriers were.
>>>> >
>>>> >He also said that they had lost the element of surprise. 29 IJN
>>>> >aircraft were shot down. A third strike would have resulted in more.
>>>>
>>>> And there were unknowns. The Japanese did not know what an utter
>>>> piece of crap the Brewster Buffalo was or how poorly B-17s performed
>>>> when attacking warships to give two examples.
>>>
>>> They learned at Midway. All of the Marine fighter pilots who flew
>>> thgat crappy aircraft were shot down by Zeros.
>>
>> That was six months after Pearl Harbor and the Buffalo was already
>> being retired. Remember, the Japanese _lost_ Midway and lost badly.
>
> And yet, an entire Marine squadron lost their lives due to those
> obsolecent aircraft.

That was only one of the things that was wrong. They had tactical
issues as well. And it wasn't an entire squadron.

>>> Admiral Morison, in his set 'The Official Hostory of the US Navy in
>>> WW2', stated the Brewster Buffalo should never have been flown in
>>> combat air against Zeros.
>>
>> That's the flip side. Nobody on the US side had any clue how good the
>> Japanese were at a lot of things.
>
> The Flying Tigers sent information back to the Department of Defense
> about the Zeros. The informaiton was supposedly lost.

It never existed. The Flying Tigers never encountered the Zero. The
Zero was a navy fighter, the army that the Flying Tigers were fighting
had a different type. It was equally bad news though.

I think it's generally agreed that the Buffalo was a piece of
crap--why belabor the point?
Re: Who Knew ? [message #412235 is a reply to message #412233] Sun, 07 November 2021 10:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Sun, 07 Nov 2021 08:55:36 -0600, D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Sat, 6 Nov 2021 19:25:24 -0500, 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart>
> wrote:
>> On 11/4/21 12:11 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>> Franklin Delan Roosevelt didn't make up Pearl Harbor.
>>
>> But he did help plan and orchestrate Pearl Harbor. You obviously have no
>> idea how war actually worked in those days.
>>
>> Von Clauzewitz : War is politics by other means.
>> Sun Tzu : The best general has defeated his enemy before the war begins.
>>
>> What does this mean? It means the wars are planned well in advance of
>> any actual casus belli. Wars don't just "happen." They are not the
>> result of one country stepping on another country's toes. They are part
>> of long-term economic planning cooperation between all sides involved.
>
> Nonsense. That sounds like a conspiracy theory.

It pretty much is.

I would like to see "711" show the communications between Roosevelt
and the Japanese that were instrumental in this "planning and
orchestration".

I think it's fairly well established that Roosevelt wanted to get the
US into the war, but "planned and orchestrated Pearl Harbor" is rather
overstating the case.

Whether the miscommunication between the War Department and Short and
Kimmel was deliberate or mere incompetence is another story.
Re: Who Knew ? [message #412238 is a reply to message #412233] Mon, 08 November 2021 00:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: 711 Spooky Mart

On 11/7/21 8:55 AM, D.J. wrote:
> On Sat, 6 Nov 2021 19:25:24 -0500, 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart>
> wrote:
>> On 11/4/21 12:11 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>> Franklin Delan Roosevelt didn't make up Pearl Harbor.
>>
>> But he did help plan and orchestrate Pearl Harbor. You obviously have no
>> idea how war actually worked in those days.
>>
>> Von Clauzewitz : War is politics by other means.
>> Sun Tzu : The best general has defeated his enemy before the war begins.
>>
>> What does this mean? It means the wars are planned well in advance of
>> any actual casus belli. Wars don't just "happen." They are not the
>> result of one country stepping on another country's toes. They are part
>> of long-term economic planning cooperation between all sides involved.
>
> Nonsense. That sounds like a conspiracy theory.

Right, because we all know that politicians and military war hawks
_never_ conspire. They're all angels, right?

Davos. G8. Bilderberg. UN Security Council. NATO. World Bank. BIS.
Countless think tanks. What do you think these thugs are doing? Don't
ask Don Quixote.

The pirates put up pretty colored flags in place of the Jolly Roger, so
there's nothing to see here.

"Conspiracy theory" is a psychopolitical demonization term used by these
very gangs of thugs.

Read General Smedley Butler's "War is a Racket." Then see what tune you
are singing.

Also read Sun Tzu's art of war. The general achieves then maintains
control of the terrain by use of spies (and provacateurs). A successful
general defeats his enemy before going to battle with him, by
manufacturing the factions that will do battle, and getting them all to
do useless things.

Once conquest is achieved, the only way to maintain that power is
permanent war and revolution, vide Von Clauzewitz' "War is politics by
other means." Otherwise some strappers may gain the momentum necessary
to challenge the reigning power. To prevent this constant conflict is
agitated, to constantly redirect popular energy to movements and
resistance that goes nowhere. The communists called this controlling
both sides of a conflict.

Once generals have achieved an objective over a conquered population,
they must maintain the 'peace' by constantly embroiling all sides in
manufactured conflicts. This is the "divide and conquer" strategy,
sometimes also called "Cloward and Piven strategy." This is the
communist precept of "permanent revolution." This is the Hegelian
Dialectic as described by Karl Marx in the Communist Manifesto.

This is exactly what your rulers are doing. They are putting on a
pageant for you to take at face value, so you will tilt at windmills.

--
──┏━━━━┓──┏━━┓───┏━━ ┓── ┌─────────────────── ─────┐ ┌────────┐
──┗━━┓─┃──┗┓─┃───┗┓─ ┃── │ Spooky Mart [chan] 711 │ │ always │
─────┃─┃──┏┛─┗┓──┏┛─ ┗┓─ │ https://bitmessage.org │ │ open │
─────┗━┛──┗━━━┛──┗━━ ━┛─ └─────────────────── ─────┘ └────────┘
Re: Who Knew ? [message #412243 is a reply to message #412238] Mon, 08 November 2021 10:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Maus

On 2021-11-08, 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> wrote:
> On 11/7/21 8:55 AM, D.J. wrote:
>> On Sat, 6 Nov 2021 19:25:24 -0500, 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart>
>> wrote:
>>> On 11/4/21 12:11 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>>> Franklin Delan Roosevelt didn't make up Pearl Harbor.
>
> Once generals have achieved an objective over a conquered population,
> they must maintain the 'peace' by constantly embroiling all sides in
> manufactured conflicts. This is the "divide and conquer" strategy,
> sometimes also called "Cloward and Piven strategy." This is the
> communist precept of "permanent revolution." This is the Hegelian
> Dialectic as described by Karl Marx in the Communist Manifesto.
>
> This is exactly what your rulers are doing. They are putting on a
> pageant for you to take at face value, so you will tilt at windmills.
>

Any General staff will have plans for the most unlikely scenarios, at
least they should.

Joe Biden wanders away and cannot be found?

Dust off the joe-biden-gets-lost file!


--
greymausg@mail.com
That's not a mousehole!
Re: Who Knew ? [message #412244 is a reply to message #412238] Mon, 08 November 2021 10:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
D.J. is currently offline  D.J.
Messages: 821
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Sun, 7 Nov 2021 23:44:36 -0600, 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart>
wrote:
> On 11/7/21 8:55 AM, D.J. wrote:
>> On Sat, 6 Nov 2021 19:25:24 -0500, 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart>
>> wrote:
>>> On 11/4/21 12:11 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>>> Franklin Delan Roosevelt didn't make up Pearl Harbor.
>>>
>>> But he did help plan and orchestrate Pearl Harbor. You obviously have no
>>> idea how war actually worked in those days.
>>>
>>> Von Clauzewitz : War is politics by other means.
>>> Sun Tzu : The best general has defeated his enemy before the war begins.
>>>
>>> What does this mean? It means the wars are planned well in advance of
>>> any actual casus belli. Wars don't just "happen." They are not the
>>> result of one country stepping on another country's toes. They are part
>>> of long-term economic planning cooperation between all sides involved.
>>
>> Nonsense. That sounds like a conspiracy theory.
>
> Right, because we all know that politicians and military war hawks
> _never_ conspire. They're all angels, right?
>
> Davos. G8. Bilderberg. UN Security Council. NATO. World Bank. BIS.
> Countless think tanks. What do you think these thugs are doing? Don't
> ask Don Quixote.
>
> The pirates put up pretty colored flags in place of the Jolly Roger, so
> there's nothing to see here.
>
> "Conspiracy theory" is a psychopolitical demonization term used by these
> very gangs of thugs.
>
> Read General Smedley Butler's "War is a Racket." Then see what tune you
> are singing.

It is a conspiracy theory until you provide proof/evidence. I've read
books by both Allied and Axis leaders and generals, and lower ranks.

No collusion.
Re: Who Knew ? [message #412245 is a reply to message #412243] Mon, 08 November 2021 12:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Thomas Koenig

Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> schrieb:

> Joe Biden wanders away and cannot be found?

Lorenzo Smythe to the rescue!
Re: Who Knew ? [message #412246 is a reply to message #412238] Mon, 08 November 2021 12:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> wrote:
> On 11/7/21 8:55 AM, D.J. wrote:
>> On Sat, 6 Nov 2021 19:25:24 -0500, 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart>
>> wrote:
>>> On 11/4/21 12:11 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>>> Franklin Delan Roosevelt didn't make up Pearl Harbor.
>>>
>>> But he did help plan and orchestrate Pearl Harbor. You obviously have no
>>> idea how war actually worked in those days.
>>>
>>> Von Clauzewitz : War is politics by other means.
>>> Sun Tzu : The best general has defeated his enemy before the war begins.
>>>
>>> What does this mean? It means the wars are planned well in advance of
>>> any actual casus belli. Wars don't just "happen." They are not the
>>> result of one country stepping on another country's toes. They are part
>>> of long-term economic planning cooperation between all sides involved.
>>
>> Nonsense. That sounds like a conspiracy theory.
>
> Right, because we all know that politicians and military war hawks
> _never_ conspire. They're all angels, right?

If you’re going to set up a conspiracy you aren’t going to sink half your
fleet to start off. You’d stage something like the NAZIs did with Poland
where you get a couple of expendables killed and then blow it up into a big
thing. 1942 was a tough year in the Pacific for the US and its allies. If
things had gone differently at Midway the war might have had a completely
different outcome.

--
Pete
Re: Who Knew ? [message #412248 is a reply to message #412246] Mon, 08 November 2021 14:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Maus

On 2021-11-08, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> wrote:
>> On 11/7/21 8:55 AM, D.J. wrote:
>>> On Sat, 6 Nov 2021 19:25:24 -0500, 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart>
>>> wrote:
>
> If you’re going to set up a conspiracy you aren’t going to sink half your
> fleet to start off. You’d stage something like the NAZIs did with Poland
> where you get a couple of expendables killed and then blow it up into a big
> thing. 1942 was a tough year in the Pacific for the US and its allies. If
> things had gone differently at Midway the war might have had a completely
> different outcome.
>


Doubt it. Once the Germans had been stopped at Moscow, and the ordinary
Russian found out what was to happen if Germany won the war, it was only
a matter of time.

Thinking today, there was a lot of very nasty things happening in
Manchuria before the Russian Invasion and after it, which is not really
known in The west.

I have been told that is is noticed that Japanese tourists do not leave
litter behind them, wheere Chinese tourists do, I remember in a Muslim
country the tourist bus stopped and people got off to see something, and
one discarded a wrapper, A flock of sheep saw it and pounced.

--
greymausg@mail.com
That's not a mousehole!
Re: Who Knew ? [message #412249 is a reply to message #412248] Mon, 08 November 2021 17:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anne &amp; Lynn Wheel is currently offline  Anne &amp; Lynn Wheel
Messages: 3156
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> writes:
> Doubt it. Once the Germans had been stopped at Moscow, and the ordinary
> Russian found out what was to happen if Germany won the war, it was only
> a matter of time.
>
> Thinking today, there was a lot of very nasty things happening in
> Manchuria before the Russian Invasion and after it, which is not really
> known in The west.

Roosevelt kept telling the Pacific commanders (asking for more
resources) that Germany could win the war w/o Japan, but Japan couldn't
win the war w/o Germany ... and so Germany had to be 1st priority
.... 3/4s of German military were fighting Soviets and D-DAY was strictly
side show for Germany.

Sand and Steel
https://www.amazon.com/Sand-Steel-Invasion-Liberation-France -ebook/dp/B07PPVG8HG/
pg19/loc992-98: However, OB West's remaining twenty-three Bodenstandige
(static position) divisions were either immobile or reserve infantry
formations, with low Kampfwert (combat effectiveness) ratings. They were
assessed as incapable of taking on offensive missions, and suitable only
for limited defence. For the latter's transportation needs, in
Rundstedt's domain there were 115,000 military horses on strength, a
stark reminder of how reliant on these creatures the German armed forces
were in 1944 - by contrast, the Allies would bring with them not a
single equine. 3 A year earlier, roughly twenty-five per cent of
officers stationed in France had fought in Russia; by 1944, this figure
had almost doubled to sixty per cent. This did not necessarily reflect a
reinforcement of the west, but a higher proportion of wounded and
convalescing leaders.
pg38/loc1415-18: It still comes as a surprise to many that the German
Army in Normandy was predominantly horse-drawn. When Second Lieutenant
Bob Sheehan of the US 60th Chemical Company (an outfit responsible for
smoke weapons) breasted a rise over the dunes of Omaha on 7 June, he saw
'a mind-shattering sight that convinced me the war was as good as
won. It was a dead horse. The poor animal was still attached to the
wagon it had been pulling.
pg39/loc1421-24: We have already noted that 115,000 of them were
assigned to OB West, with exactly 33,739 on the books of the Seventh
Army on 1 March 1944, and another ten thousand arriving by 1 June. 60
These numbers came as a shock to Rommel, who, of course, had commanded
the 7th Panzer Division in 1940 and the Afrika Korps in 1941-3, neither
of which used horses.
pg47/loc1600-1604: The stature of the Nazi war machine, forged in North
Africa, Italy and on the Eastern Front, was still feared in 1944, though
demonstrably hollowed out. It also helped Berlin that the Western
Allies, particularly the 21st Army Group, were also excessively
cautious, which played to the German inclination - despite their
convoluted command - of tactical speed of reaction. Finally, it also
suited many Allied commanders after the war to talk up the prowess of
their opponents, making the achievement of subduing them all the
greater.

.... and part of horrific fighting on Omaha beach (from US army war
college, free PDF) ... high altitude, heavy strategic bombing almost
never hit the target (however, 2/3rds of total US WW2 spending went to
strategic bombing program)
https://ssi.armywarcollege.edu/2011/pubs/the-european-campai gn-its-origins-and-conduct/
loc2582-85: The bomber preparation of Omaha Beach was a total failure,
and German defenses on Omaha Beach were intact as American troops came
ashore. At Utah Beach, the bombers were a little more effective because
the IXth Bomber Command was using B-26 medium bombers. Wisely, in
preparation for supporting the invasion, maintenance crews removed
Norden bombsights from the bombers and installed the more effective
low-level altitude sights.

..... Roosevelt also felt US needed Soviets to defeat Japan
.... aggreement with Stalin that Soviets would come in against Japan
after Germany was defeated (i.e. 1.5million Soviets had quickly defeated
million Japenese in Manchuria and were within 3days of invading Japanese
homeland ... compared to Okinawa where 600k US and heavy shelling had to
deal with only 76k Japanese ... and months away from any homeland
invasion).

--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970
Re: Alternate Who Knew ? [message #412250 is a reply to message #412248] Mon, 08 November 2021 17:22 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
John Levine is currently offline  John Levine
Messages: 1405
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
According to Maus <rhunDARNtheSPAM@DARNtheSPAMkatamailDARNtheSPAM.com>:
> On 2021-11-08, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> If you’re going to set up a conspiracy you aren’t going to sink half your
>> fleet to start off. You’d stage something like the NAZIs did with Poland
>> where you get a couple of expendables killed and then blow it up into a big
>> thing. 1942 was a tough year in the Pacific for the US and its allies. If
>> things had gone differently at Midway the war might have had a completely
>> different outcome.
>
> Doubt it. Once the Germans had been stopped at Moscow, and the ordinary
> Russian found out what was to happen if Germany won the war, it was only
> a matter of time. ...

We would have won, but the situation afterward could have been quite different.

The Soviet Union declared war on Japan the same week we bombed Hiroshima and
Nagasaki. If the war had gone on longer, in all likelihood Japan would have
been divided into Soviet and US zones rather than Korea.

It's also not out of the question that we might have had a negotiated peace
that left Japan with some of their conquered territory. I doubt we would have
let them keep the Philippines but France was in no condition to demand that
they return Vietnam nor the Netherlands to return Indonesia.
--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
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