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Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #404015 is a reply to message #404011] Sun, 10 January 2021 15:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
scott is currently offline  scott
Messages: 4237
Registered: February 2012
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Senior Member
J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
> On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 13:31:14 -0500, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 09:13:35 -0500, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> usenet@only.tnx (Questor) writes:
>>>>
>>>> > How will traffic officers direct self-driving cars?
>>>>
>>>> With a transmitter?
>>>
>>> Then how will they direct non-self-driving cars?
>>
>> With their hands?
>
> So the cop's standing there at an intersection and he's having to
> figure out for each car "is this self-driving or human driven" and
> apply the appropriate signal.


You're a smart guy, figure out how to make it work. I suspect that
the "transmitter" would be transmitting to all cars with a certain
heading on specific routes, and the officer wouldn't give shit
which are the autonomous vehicles and just give directions to all
vehicles.

They've been talking about meshing all autonomous vehicles for
a decade now.
Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #404016 is a reply to message #404011] Sun, 10 January 2021 16:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
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On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 15:41:50 -0500
J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 13:31:14 -0500, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>

>> With their hands?
>
> So the cop's standing there at an intersection and he's having to
> figure out for each car "is this self-driving or human driven" and
> apply the appropriate signal.

If the self driving car doesn't understand the standard signals
then it is not ready to be a fully autonomous vehicle IMHO. If it does then
the cop doesn't need to know or care.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #404017 is a reply to message #404010] Sun, 10 January 2021 16:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dan Espen is currently offline  Dan Espen
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J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:

> There is a class of people...

Sorry, I'm out of this one.

--
Dan Espen
Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #404020 is a reply to message #403985] Sun, 10 January 2021 17:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike Spencer is currently offline  Mike Spencer
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usenet@only.tnx (Questor) writes:

> Like so many, you focus on the technical challanges to the exclusion
> of everything else.
>
> How will traffic officers direct self-driving cars?

Robocops? Humans with hand-held car-hacking devices?

A friend, recently deceased in his late 70s, told me of driving in
notoriously traffic-insane Boston, Mass. in the 60s.

He was then, to the bourgeois eye, a flaming hippie in a recognizably
hippie-ish VW Microbus. While stopped at a particularly gnarly
multi-street intersection, the cop directing traffic dashed over to
Dave's bus, jumped into the passenger seat and shouted, "Police
emergency, go there!" and pointed. Utterly nonplussed, Dave went
there while the cop leaned out of the door, waving and shouting
"Police emergency!".

After directing Dave for several blocks, the cop said, "Okay, you can
pull over here. I'm going to be fired. This is the second time I've
done this. There is no emergency. I just couldn't stand it one
minute more. Thank you very much." Got out and walked away.

For extra credit, morph this yarn into a self-drivng car context.

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #404021 is a reply to message #404009] Sun, 10 January 2021 18:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: JimP

On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 20:25:01 +0000, Ahem A Rivet's Shot
<steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 13:35:17 -0600
> JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> And one situation I see AI/hire cars being insufficient. During
>> evacuations for natural disasters and prior to hurricane landfall.
>
> Sufficient no, but if a "swarm to the affected area" could be
> achieved it might be helpful.

True; however, traffic to hurricane approaching areas is limited to
power company trucks and any trucks, et al, like construction
equipment that might be needed to clear roads, rescue people etc. I
have had to show my driver's license to return home if I go back
early.

--
Jim
Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #404022 is a reply to message #404013] Sun, 10 January 2021 18:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: JimP

On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 20:56:15 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:
> JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> writes:
>> On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 18:13:40 +0000, Ahem A Rivet's Shot
>> <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 12:29:33 -0500
>>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 09:07:26 -0500, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >As for the boon, well, better safety would be nice, it could save
>>>> >a few lives or injuries, but at least at first I don't think that
>>>> >would be substantial. What would be substantial is the fact that
>>>> >no one would have to own a personal car. We could probably get by
>>>> >with a fifth of the number of cars we have today.
>>>>
>>>> I don't know where people like you get the notion that "no one would
>>>> have to own a personal car" or why you consider that to be a desirable
>>>> state of affairs.
>>>
>>> Yep that's very overstated, I would expect self driving to reduce
>>> personal car ownership as that is already of marginal benefit for many city
>>> dwellers since not keeping a car in a city will pay for a lot of taxi rides
>>> and occasional car hires.
>>>
>>> Professional drivers (taxis, vans, trucks) stand to lose a lot of
>>> their jobs if self driving gets good enough (why pay a person to drive the
>>> HGV 8 hours a day when the automation will drive it 24 hours a day). Taxis
>>> would only need drivers if the passenger requests assistance. As for vans,
>>> I expect single pallet modules will turn up sooner or later. Rural public
>>> transport gets more viable if drivers don't have to be paid and fuel costs
>>> are down to electric levels.
>>>
>>> All this seems to me to be among the likely consequences of fully
>>> autonomous vehicles, but the end of personal car ownership - certainly not
>>> as long as a flash car is a status symbol and people stop liking to keep
>>> stuff handy in their car and people stop working out of their car and
>>> people stop living where cars are handy.
>>>
>>>> I know you have this rosy vision of there being an
>>>> unlimited number of unoccupied cars waiting in a queue seconda away
>>>> from every point on Earth
>>>
>>> Well last time I was in Seattle there were a lot of instant hire
>>> cars all over the city centre, I'd guess they're dotted around the populous
>>> suburbs too (I had no occasion to look) but I'd be surprised if they were
>>> around at all in the rural areas. I'd expect self-driving hire cars to be
>>> similarly (un)available because the economics seem to be about the same.
>>
>> And one situation I see AI/hire cars being insufficient. During
>> evacuations for natural disasters and prior to hurricane landfall.
>
> The extensive traffic jams caused by such evacuations when everyone
> takes their personal vehicles, on the other hand are their own problem...

Well, I have procrastinated in such situations, and got caught up in
traffic. I left early after that. I no longer live in such an area.

--
Jim
Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #404027 is a reply to message #404021] Sun, 10 January 2021 19:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
John Levine is currently offline  John Levine
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Registered: December 2011
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Senior Member
In article <cp2nvf94smpojqac5tv89b4qoea17l29ef@4ax.com>,
JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> And one situation I see AI/hire cars being insufficient. During
>>> evacuations for natural disasters and prior to hurricane landfall.
>>
>> Sufficient no, but if a "swarm to the affected area" could be
>> achieved it might be helpful.
>
> True; however, traffic to hurricane approaching areas is limited to
> power company trucks and any trucks, et al, like construction
> equipment that might be needed to clear roads, rescue people etc. I
> have had to show my driver's license to return home if I go back
> early.

If they know that a bunch of empty autotaxis are coming in to evacuate
people, why do you imagine that they wouldn't adjust the rules to
allow them in to do the evacuations?



--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #404028 is a reply to message #403987] Sun, 10 January 2021 19:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Radey Shouman

Andy Leighton <andyl@azaal.plus.com> writes:

> On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 11:29:05 GMT, Questor <usenet@only.tnx> wrote:
>> How will traffic officers direct self-driving cars?
>
> I cannot remember ever seeing policemen direct cars except in film and
> tv from the old days. But I don't see it as a huge problem that cannot
> be overcome.

It's a regular thing here (E. Massachusetts). Some businesses hire
off-duty police to stop traffic and allow cars into and out of their
parking lots. This is called a "police detail", and many cops would be
quite unhappy if they did not have this source of extra income. It used
to be mandatory for road construction, but some years ago non-police
flag persons was legalized. For some reason that practice has not
really caught on here, and almost all road construction, roadside tree
trimming, sewer working, and so forth is attended by one or more police
to direct traffic. Or sometimes to just stand around in the rain and
watch.

But the answer to the question is that police will lobby for some kind
of law-enforcement override on vehicle control, for public safety.
They'll point a remote control at your vehicle, and it will drive as
directed. This will greatly simplify arresting people. A warrant will
trigger any self-driving automobile that contains such a person to lock
its doors and drive directly to the nearest police station. Miscreants
and malcontents will walk or bicycle if they want to go anywhere.

Of course, old fashioned human-driven vehicles will not have these
advantages, and will consequently be barred from public ways.
Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #404029 is a reply to message #404012] Sun, 10 January 2021 19:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
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Senior Member
On 2021-01-10, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:

> I certainly believe that were such self-driving on-demand
> vehicles available, it would likely mean that a substantial
> fraction of the population of larger cities would find (as
> many new yorkers and londoners already do) that a personal
> automobile is unnecessary.

Not just recently, or in New York and London. On a visit to
San Francisco in 1994 we rented a car to drive down to Monterey
for a few days. When we got back we hung on to the car. We soon
realized that in downtown San Francisco it was more of a liability
than an asset, and returned it. We were able to get around just
fine with public transit, never mind autonomous vehicles.

The situation would be different in less densely populated areas,
or if you had to regularly go outside the urban core...

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | "Some of you may die,
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | but it's a sacrifice
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | I'm willing to make."
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Lord Farquaad (Shrek)
Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #404031 is a reply to message #403984] Sun, 10 January 2021 20:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joy Beeson is currently offline  Joy Beeson
Messages: 159
Registered: June 2012
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Senior Member
On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 11:28:50 GMT, usenet@only.tnx (Questor) wrote:

>> Have you considered for a second that the current driver assist is
>> an essential step in developing full self driving ?
>
> No, because they are only a tiny part of what is required for driving.

Hitching a quadruped to a handcart was only a tiny part of what is
required for a self-driving car, but it was an essential step.

We'll get to the self-driving car the same way we got to the
self-shifting car.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net
Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #404033 is a reply to message #404027] Sun, 10 January 2021 21:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Mon, 11 Jan 2021 00:40:13 -0000 (UTC), John Levine
<johnl@taugh.com> wrote:

> In article <cp2nvf94smpojqac5tv89b4qoea17l29ef@4ax.com>,
> JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> And one situation I see AI/hire cars being insufficient. During
>>>> evacuations for natural disasters and prior to hurricane landfall.
>>>
>>> Sufficient no, but if a "swarm to the affected area" could be
>>> achieved it might be helpful.
>>
>> True; however, traffic to hurricane approaching areas is limited to
>> power company trucks and any trucks, et al, like construction
>> equipment that might be needed to clear roads, rescue people etc. I
>> have had to show my driver's license to return home if I go back
>> early.
>
> If they know that a bunch of empty autotaxis are coming in to evacuate
> people, why do you imagine that they wouldn't adjust the rules to
> allow them in to do the evacuations?

I dunno, because they think that emergency vehicles should have
priority in an emergency?
Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #404034 is a reply to message #404028] Sun, 10 January 2021 21:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 19:45:07 -0500, Radey Shouman
<shouman@comcast.net> wrote:

> Andy Leighton <andyl@azaal.plus.com> writes:
>
>> On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 11:29:05 GMT, Questor <usenet@only.tnx> wrote:
>>> How will traffic officers direct self-driving cars?
>>
>> I cannot remember ever seeing policemen direct cars except in film and
>> tv from the old days. But I don't see it as a huge problem that cannot
>> be overcome.
>
> It's a regular thing here (E. Massachusetts). Some businesses hire
> off-duty police to stop traffic and allow cars into and out of their
> parking lots. This is called a "police detail", and many cops would be
> quite unhappy if they did not have this source of extra income. It used
> to be mandatory for road construction, but some years ago non-police
> flag persons was legalized. For some reason that practice has not
> really caught on here, and almost all road construction, roadside tree
> trimming, sewer working, and so forth is attended by one or more police
> to direct traffic. Or sometimes to just stand around in the rain and
> watch.
>
> But the answer to the question is that police will lobby for some kind
> of law-enforcement override on vehicle control, for public safety.
> They'll point a remote control at your vehicle, and it will drive as
> directed. This will greatly simplify arresting people. A warrant will
> trigger any self-driving automobile that contains such a person to lock
> its doors and drive directly to the nearest police station. Miscreants
> and malcontents will walk or bicycle if they want to go anywhere.
>
> Of course, old fashioned human-driven vehicles will not have these
> advantages, and will consequently be barred from public ways.

And a standard hack will be the switch that pulls the fuse on the
autopilot.
Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #404040 is a reply to message #404028] Mon, 11 January 2021 03:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: maus

On 2021-01-11, Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
> Andy Leighton <andyl@azaal.plus.com> writes:
>
>> On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 11:29:05 GMT, Questor <usenet@only.tnx> wrote:
>>> How will traffic officers direct self-driving cars?
>>
>> I cannot remember ever seeing policemen direct cars except in film and
>> tv from the old days. But I don't see it as a huge problem that cannot
>> be overcome.
> of law-enforcement override on vehicle control, for public safety.
> They'll point a remote control at your vehicle, and it will drive as
> directed. This will greatly simplify arresting people. A warrant will
> trigger any self-driving automobile that contains such a person to lock
> its doors and drive directly to the nearest police station. Miscreants
> and malcontents will walk or bicycle if they want to go anywhere.
>
> Of course, old fashioned human-driven vehicles will not have these
> advantages, and will consequently be barred from public ways.

Will be very handy for assassins as well. In Parts of Ireland, anyone
stopping a car after dark will likely trigger a panic attempt to get
away, and a uniform is no reassurence.



--
greymausg@mail.com
Re: how not do self-drive, car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #404042 is a reply to message #403989] Mon, 11 January 2021 03:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: maus

On 2021-01-10, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 8 Jan 2021 18:12:33 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Questor <usenet@only.tnx> wrote:
>>>> There are two parts to the solution: eliminate the edge cases and eliminate the
>>>> humans. That's why I say enormous infrastructure changes will be required.
>>>> I'm not in favor of eliminating humans, as I generally enjoy driving.
>>>
>>> But, if you eliminated the humans you’d have the road to yourself, and
>>> driving would be even more fun.
>>
>> Yup.
>>
>> I think that the skeptics though are thinking in terms of programmers
>> trying to write code to deal with every contingency. Tesla seems to
>> be using big data and pattern recognition instead--they've got a
>> million cars giving them all sorts of data from all sorts of sensors,
>> as well as the actions of the human drivers. The more Teslas on the
>> road, the more data coming in.
>>
>> Eventually either the AI goes insane or gets pretty good.
>>
>
> Driving in some cities, I think insane.

Everyone should go to Rome, Italy for to see mad traffic. Do not bring
your own car.


--
greymausg@mail.com
Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #404043 is a reply to message #404034] Mon, 11 January 2021 05:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
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Senior Member
On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 21:27:29 -0500
J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:

> And a standard hack will be the switch that pulls the fuse on the
> autopilot.

Nah, tinfoil hat for the aerial.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: how not do self-drive, car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #404051 is a reply to message #404042] Mon, 11 January 2021 10:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Thomas Koenig

maus <maus@dmaus.org> schrieb:

> Everyone should go to Rome, Italy for to see mad traffic. Do not bring
> your own car.

A few decades ago, I visited Rome on a school trip.

There was one dangerous traffic situation.

A friend and I were crossing a green pedestrian traffic light,
when a police car (no lights flashing, no siren, high speed)
almost ran us down.

On the other hand, you could cross a busy street (with n lanes,
cars were using approximately 1.5*n of them), and as long as you
walked purposefully so motorists could see where you were going,
you were quite safe.

I haven't been to Rome in quite some time, so things may have
changed.
Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #404053 is a reply to message #404043] Mon, 11 January 2021 13:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
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Senior Member
On 2021-01-11, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

> On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 21:27:29 -0500
> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> And a standard hack will be the switch that pulls the fuse on the
>> autopilot.
>
> Nah, tinfoil hat for the aerial.

Just disconnect the leads. Works for OnStar...

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | "Some of you may die,
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | but it's a sacrifice
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | I'm willing to make."
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Lord Farquaad (Shrek)
Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #404055 is a reply to message #404027] Mon, 11 January 2021 13:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: JimP

On Mon, 11 Jan 2021 00:40:13 -0000 (UTC), John Levine
<johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
> In article <cp2nvf94smpojqac5tv89b4qoea17l29ef@4ax.com>,
> JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> And one situation I see AI/hire cars being insufficient. During
>>>> evacuations for natural disasters and prior to hurricane landfall.
>>>
>>> Sufficient no, but if a "swarm to the affected area" could be
>>> achieved it might be helpful.
>>
>> True; however, traffic to hurricane approaching areas is limited to
>> power company trucks and any trucks, et al, like construction
>> equipment that might be needed to clear roads, rescue people etc. I
>> have had to show my driver's license to return home if I go back
>> early.
>
> If they know that a bunch of empty autotaxis are coming in to evacuate
> people, why do you imagine that they wouldn't adjust the rules to
> allow them in to do the evacuations?

I just don't see it happening. If it does, well, there are people who
will claim those vehicles aren't safe.

--
Jim
Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #404056 is a reply to message #403992] Mon, 11 January 2021 14:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
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Senior Member
Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
> usenet@only.tnx (Questor) writes:
>
>> How will traffic officers direct self-driving cars?
>
> With a transmitter?
>
> Seen a lot of traffic officers lately? Were they directing traffic away
> from an event or accident? Do you think there are other ways to do
> that other than standing in the street waving your arms?
>
> I see you have an arsenal of weapons to use in your quest.
> Thanks for trying to save us.
>

This is scary. Already there are stories of hackers taking over someone’s
engine control system and killing them. If cops could control self-driving
cars, what would prevent bad guys from doing the same?

--
Pete
Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #404057 is a reply to message #403995] Mon, 11 January 2021 14:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
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Senior Member
J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 09:07:26 -0500, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> usenet@only.tnx (Questor) writes:
>>
>>> My complaint is that you won't hear that put so plainly by self-driving
>>> advocates. They spin a yarn of unparalleled safety, of cars that never make a
>>> mistake. They act like this science-fiction future is inevitable.
>>
>> I believe this is fiction.
>>
>> I think if we ever create self driving cars that are safer than human
>> driven cars it will be a boon.
>> However, none of the rest of your claims apply to me and I can't
>> remember anyone else making such claims.
>>
>> If there are such people, I'd guess there are very few people that
>> fit in that category.
>>
>> As for the boon, well, better safety would be nice, it could save
>> a few lives or injuries, but at least at first I don't think that
>> would be substantial. What would be substantial is the fact that
>> no one would have to own a personal car. We could probably get by
>> with a fifth of the number of cars we have today.
>
> I don't know where people like you get the notion that "no one would
> have to own a personal car" or why you consider that to be a desirable
> state of affairs. I know you have this rosy vision of there being an
> unlimited number of unoccupied cars waiting in a queue seconda away
> from every point on Earth but I see no reason to believe that that's
> how it is going to work. I envision many long cold wet waits for the
> car to show up, and much lugging of stuff around that I don't want to
> be lugging because I have to empty the car every time I get out of it.
>

People already don’t have to own cars in large cities, they have these
things called “taxis” and “ubers”.

--
Pete
Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #404058 is a reply to message #404031] Mon, 11 January 2021 14:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
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Senior Member
Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 11:28:50 GMT, usenet@only.tnx (Questor) wrote:
>
>>> Have you considered for a second that the current driver assist is
>>> an essential step in developing full self driving ?
>>
>> No, because they are only a tiny part of what is required for driving.
>
> Hitching a quadruped to a handcart was only a tiny part of what is
> required for a self-driving car, but it was an essential step.
>
> We'll get to the self-driving car the same way we got to the
> self-shifting car.
>

There used to be self-driving wagons. Someone goes to visit a friend and
gets plastered. Put him in his wagon and let the horse find its own way
home. The someone wakes up sometime later at his own house.

--
Pete
Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #404059 is a reply to message #404040] Mon, 11 January 2021 14:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
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Senior Member
maus <maus@dmaus.org> wrote:
> On 2021-01-11, Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
>> Andy Leighton <andyl@azaal.plus.com> writes:
>>
>>> On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 11:29:05 GMT, Questor <usenet@only.tnx> wrote:
>>>> How will traffic officers direct self-driving cars?
>>>
>>> I cannot remember ever seeing policemen direct cars except in film and
>>> tv from the old days. But I don't see it as a huge problem that cannot
>>> be overcome.
>> of law-enforcement override on vehicle control, for public safety.
>> They'll point a remote control at your vehicle, and it will drive as
>> directed. This will greatly simplify arresting people. A warrant will
>> trigger any self-driving automobile that contains such a person to lock
>> its doors and drive directly to the nearest police station. Miscreants
>> and malcontents will walk or bicycle if they want to go anywhere.
>>
>> Of course, old fashioned human-driven vehicles will not have these
>> advantages, and will consequently be barred from public ways.
>
> Will be very handy for assassins as well. In Parts of Ireland, anyone
> stopping a car after dark will likely trigger a panic attempt to get
> away, and a uniform is no reassurence.
>

Still?

--
Pete
Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #404060 is a reply to message #404059] Mon, 11 January 2021 15:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: maus

On 2021-01-11, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> maus <maus@dmaus.org> wrote:
>> On 2021-01-11, Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
>>> Andy Leighton <andyl@azaal.plus.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 11:29:05 GMT, Questor <usenet@only.tnx> wrote:
>>>> > How will traffic officers direct self-driving cars?
>>>>
>>>> I cannot remember ever seeing policemen direct cars except in film and
>>>> tv from the old days. But I don't see it as a huge problem that cannot
>>>> be overcome.
>>> of law-enforcement override on vehicle control, for public safety.
>>> They'll point a remote control at your vehicle, and it will drive as
>>> directed. This will greatly simplify arresting people. A warrant will
>>> trigger any self-driving automobile that contains such a person to lock
>>> its doors and drive directly to the nearest police station. Miscreants
>>> and malcontents will walk or bicycle if they want to go anywhere.
>>>
>>> Of course, old fashioned human-driven vehicles will not have these
>>> advantages, and will consequently be barred from public ways.
>>
>> Will be very handy for assassins as well. In Parts of Ireland, anyone
>> stopping a car after dark will likely trigger a panic attempt to get
>> away, and a uniform is no reassurence.
>>
>
> Still?
>

Yes, in some areas.

--
greymausg@mail.com
Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #404061 is a reply to message #404058] Mon, 11 January 2021 15:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: maus

On 2021-01-11, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
>> On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 11:28:50 GMT, usenet@only.tnx (Questor) wrote:
>>
>>>> Have you considered for a second that the current driver assist is
>>>> an essential step in developing full self driving ?
>>>
>>> No, because they are only a tiny part of what is required for driving.
>>
>> Hitching a quadruped to a handcart was only a tiny part of what is
>> required for a self-driving car, but it was an essential step.
>>
>> We'll get to the self-driving car the same way we got to the
>> self-shifting car.
>>
>
> There used to be self-driving wagons. Someone goes to visit a friend and
> gets plastered. Put him in his wagon and let the horse find its own way
> home. The someone wakes up sometime later at his own house.

Even better, some of the local lads would see the old guy heading home,
lift him out of that cart and into his bed, dissamble to cart and
reassemble in The kitchen and reharness the horse.

man to wife;

`I am thinking of moving the horse into an inside room till thr race
Saturday.''

wife; `What about the smell?'

`Oh, it wont mind.'



--
greymausg@mail.com
Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #404062 is a reply to message #404060] Mon, 11 January 2021 15:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
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Senior Member
On 2021-01-11, maus <maus@dmaus.org> wrote:

> On 2021-01-11, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> maus <maus@dmaus.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2021-01-11, Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Andy Leighton <andyl@azaal.plus.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>> > On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 11:29:05 GMT, Questor <usenet@only.tnx> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> How will traffic officers direct self-driving cars?
>>>> >
>>>> > I cannot remember ever seeing policemen direct cars except in film and
>>>> > tv from the old days. But I don't see it as a huge problem that cannot
>>>> > be overcome.
>>>>
>>>> of law-enforcement override on vehicle control, for public safety.
>>>> They'll point a remote control at your vehicle, and it will drive as
>>>> directed. This will greatly simplify arresting people. A warrant will
>>>> trigger any self-driving automobile that contains such a person to lock
>>>> its doors and drive directly to the nearest police station. Miscreants
>>>> and malcontents will walk or bicycle if they want to go anywhere.
>>>>
>>>> Of course, old fashioned human-driven vehicles will not have these
>>>> advantages, and will consequently be barred from public ways.
>>>
>>> Will be very handy for assassins as well. In Parts of Ireland, anyone
>>> stopping a car after dark will likely trigger a panic attempt to get
>>> away, and a uniform is no reassurence.
>>
>> Still?
>
> Yes, in some areas.

Not just in Ireland. A police officer in Calgary, Alberta was dragged
and killed at a traffic stop on New Year's Eve. That has to be one of
the scariest jobs in the world.

On the other side of the coin, I read a science fiction story where
someone's autonomous car pulled over, locked the doors, and refused
to let the occupant out until he agreed to buy what was being
advertised on the infotainment centre's screen. (In the story,
a friend came along and got him out.)

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | "Some of you may die,
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | but it's a sacrifice
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | I'm willing to make."
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Lord Farquaad (Shrek)
Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #404064 is a reply to message #404055] Mon, 11 January 2021 16:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
John Levine is currently offline  John Levine
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In article <8g7pvftdfcfg9pogmdeckio380fll3s1c4@4ax.com>,
JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> True; however, traffic to hurricane approaching areas is limited ...

>> If they know that a bunch of empty autotaxis are coming in to evacuate
>> people, why do you imagine that they wouldn't adjust the rules to
>> allow them in to do the evacuations?
>
> I just don't see it happening. If it does, well, there are people who
> will claim those vehicles aren't safe.

What do you expect them to say to the people who have no other way to
evacuate? "Safe" is a relative term when a hurricane is on the way.



--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #404065 is a reply to message #403958] Mon, 11 January 2021 16:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Kerr-Mudd,John

On Sat, 09 Jan 2021 13:31:20 GMT, Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se>
wrote:

> On 2021-01-08, Questor <usenet@only.tnx> wrote:
>> On Thu, 7 Jan 2021 22:14:48 +0000, Vir Campestris
>> <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>> Of course self driving cars will reduce the alcohol induced death
>>> rate. You need not be tempted to drive home after a few drinks.
>>
>> The solution to that has existed for decades, and requires no
>> advanced technology. It's called a taxicab. More recently, the
>> social construct of "designated driver" has been invented.
>
> Or, where available, public transportation. Not that good or
> widespread in the US outside some very big cities, I know, but in
> other places it isn't that bad.
>
> Niklas

It is most excellent in Prague, where it's needed most.

--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Re: how not do self-drive, car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #404066 is a reply to message #404051] Mon, 11 January 2021 16:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Kerr-Mudd,John

On Mon, 11 Jan 2021 15:56:45 GMT, Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de>
wrote:

> maus <maus@dmaus.org> schrieb:
>
>> Everyone should go to Rome, Italy for to see mad traffic. Do not bring
>> your own car.
>
> A few decades ago, I visited Rome on a school trip.
>
> There was one dangerous traffic situation.
>
> A friend and I were crossing a green pedestrian traffic light,
> when a police car (no lights flashing, no siren, high speed)
> almost ran us down.
>
> On the other hand, you could cross a busy street (with n lanes,
> cars were using approximately 1.5*n of them), and as long as you
> walked purposefully so motorists could see where you were going,
> you were quite safe.
>
> I haven't been to Rome in quite some time, so things may have
> changed.
>
The chariot-drivers are still as keen as ever. Coffee & wine, what a
combo!


--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #404067 is a reply to message #403927] Mon, 11 January 2021 16:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Kerr-Mudd,John

On Fri, 08 Jan 2021 20:41:23 GMT, Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se>
wrote:

>
> Niklas
> --
> Kids have it easy today. All they have to listen to is stories about
> how back in the '70s we had to listen to stories about how bad it was
> back in the '30s. --Keith Lynch
>

I don't think I've seen Keith in here.
(Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/)


--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #404068 is a reply to message #404062] Mon, 11 January 2021 16:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
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On 11 Jan 2021 20:39:20 GMT
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

> On the other side of the coin, I read a science fiction story where
> someone's autonomous car pulled over, locked the doors, and refused
> to let the occupant out until he agreed to buy what was being
> advertised on the infotainment centre's screen.

Yay, a marketing opportunity The Space Merchants missed, there
aren't many.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #404069 is a reply to message #403991] Mon, 11 January 2021 16:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
usenet is currently offline  usenet
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On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 09:07:26 -0500, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
> usenet@only.tnx (Questor) writes:
>> My complaint is that you won't hear that put so plainly by self-driving
>> advocates. They spin a yarn of unparalleled safety, of cars that never make a
>> mistake. They act like this science-fiction future is inevitable.
>
> I believe this is fiction.
>
> I think if we ever create self driving cars that are safer than human
> driven cars it will be a boon.
> However, none of the rest of your claims apply to me and I can't
> remember anyone else making such claims.

Elsewhere in this thread I specifically stated I did not hold any participants
in this group to be responsible for those claims.


> If there are such people, I'd guess there are very few people that
> fit in that category.

Most of them, actually. Advocates for autonomous vehicles paint rosy pictures
of a utopian future, and never bring up any possible negative consequences.
Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #404070 is a reply to message #404010] Mon, 11 January 2021 16:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
usenet is currently offline  usenet
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On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 15:40:55 -0500, J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> So we end up with as many cars as we have now, but they all belong to
> some vast faceless ride-sharing corporation instead of individuals.
> Why does that not reassure me?
>
> And then you have the issue of the last person to use the car and what
> condition he left it in.

Almost always an issue with any shared resource. Tragedy of the commons and all
that. That some people will use self-driving taxis and rideshare vehicles as
"party cars" is just one of many foreseeable problems.
Re: car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #404071 is a reply to message #404012] Mon, 11 January 2021 16:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
usenet is currently offline  usenet
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On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 20:54:30 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:
> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>> There is a class of people who believe that self-driving cars will
>> result in some kind of automotive utopia where everybody rides
>> automated taxis and nobody owns a car. Do you deny that you belong to
>> that class?
>
> I'm not Dan, but I would deny that 'class of people' exists, outside of a handful
> of individuals and strawman arguments.

You can be forgiven for not keeping up with all the writing on self-driving
vehicles, however there most certainly is a notable subset of advocates who
think that autonomous vehicles will somehow result in greatly reduced private
ownership of cars. I think that would be very unlikely, given how people treat
their cars as an extension of their personal space and/or homes.


> I certainly believe that were such self-driving on-demand vehicles available, it would
> likely mean that a substantial fraction of the population of larger cities
> would find (as many new yorkers and londoners already do) that a
> personal automobile is unnecessary.

There are taxis and now services like Lyft and Uber. I don't see how autonomous
vehicles changes that equation significantly.
Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #404072 is a reply to message #404031] Mon, 11 January 2021 16:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 20:00:35 -0500, Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid>
wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 11:28:50 GMT, usenet@only.tnx (Questor) wrote:
>>> Have you considered for a second that the current driver assist is
>>> an essential step in developing full self driving ?
>>
>> No, because they are only a tiny part of what is required for driving.
>
> Hitching a quadruped to a handcart was only a tiny part of what is
> required for a self-driving car, but it was an essential step.

If you're going to go back that far, why stop there? The smelting of iron or
the development of written communication were essential steps too.

You have to put your stake somewhere. I think people underestimate how
complicated driving is. Highlighting driver assist features as essential steps
is like praising a precocious eight-year-old for having done some advanced adult
activity. (I dunno, winning a model car race or building a telescope.) It's an
achievement, but it doesn't mean that they're ready to go out into the adult
world and make it on their own. It's just a little part of growing up.


> We'll get to the self-driving car the same way we got to the
> self-shifting car.

Incrementalism isn't going to help with the systemic problems that are social,
not technological.
Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #404073 is a reply to message #403969] Mon, 11 January 2021 16:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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On Sat, 9 Jan 2021 21:02:40 +0000, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net>
wrote:
> No dispute there, that's a shortcoming of Tesla's Autopilot - it's
> a real shame that people are stupid enough to need a nanny like that but
> it seems they are.

You've been making two big assumptions throughout this discussion. The first,
which you acknowledge, is that self-driving cars are inevitable, and will
eventually be safer than human drivers.

The second is that if self-driving cars do become a reality as you expect,
people won't find a way to do something stupid with them anyway. (grin)
Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #404074 is a reply to message #404028] Mon, 11 January 2021 16:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 19:45:07 -0500, Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
> Andy Leighton <andyl@azaal.plus.com> writes:
>> On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 11:29:05 GMT, Questor <usenet@only.tnx> wrote:
>>> How will traffic officers direct self-driving cars?
>>
>> I cannot remember ever seeing policemen direct cars except in film and
>> tv from the old days. But I don't see it as a huge problem that cannot
>> be overcome.
>
> It's a regular thing here (E. Massachusetts). Some businesses hire
> off-duty police to stop traffic and allow cars into and out of their
> parking lots. This is called a "police detail", and many cops would be
> quite unhappy if they did not have this source of extra income. It used
> to be mandatory for road construction, but some years ago non-police
> flag persons was legalized. For some reason that practice has not
> really caught on here, and almost all road construction, roadside tree
> trimming, sewer working, and so forth is attended by one or more police
> to direct traffic. Or sometimes to just stand around in the rain and
> watch.
>
> But the answer to the question is that police will lobby for some kind
> of law-enforcement override on vehicle control, for public safety.
> They'll point a remote control at your vehicle, and it will drive as
> directed. This will greatly simplify arresting people. A warrant will
> trigger any self-driving automobile that contains such a person to lock
> its doors and drive directly to the nearest police station. Miscreants
> and malcontents will walk or bicycle if they want to go anywhere.

Yes. Thank you. This. Exactly this.

Apparently Radey Shouman and I are the only ones here who have seen the movie,
"Minority Report." (grin)

But yes, some kind of command override for autonomous vehicles is certain to be
requested by law enforcement and/or politicians. Does anyone doubt this? How
can such mechanism be implemented that prevents abuse by malicious actors?


> Of course, old fashioned human-driven vehicles will not have these
> advantages, and will consequently be barred from public ways.

Yes. Like I said, part of the solution for autonomous vehicles is eliminating
humans. (By which I obviously mean eliminating human drivers from the driving
environment in question -- be it a closed campus or the roadways as a whole.)
Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #404075 is a reply to message #404034] Mon, 11 January 2021 16:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 21:27:29 -0500, J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 19:45:07 -0500, Radey Shouman
> <shouman@comcast.net> wrote:
>> Andy Leighton <andyl@azaal.plus.com> writes:
>>> On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 11:29:05 GMT, Questor <usenet@only.tnx> wrote:
>>>> How will traffic officers direct self-driving cars?
>>>
>>> I cannot remember ever seeing policemen direct cars except in film and
>>> tv from the old days. But I don't see it as a huge problem that cannot
>>> be overcome.
>>
>> It's a regular thing here (E. Massachusetts). Some businesses hire
>> off-duty police to stop traffic and allow cars into and out of their
>> parking lots. This is called a "police detail", and many cops would be
>> quite unhappy if they did not have this source of extra income. It used
>> to be mandatory for road construction, but some years ago non-police
>> flag persons was legalized. For some reason that practice has not
>> really caught on here, and almost all road construction, roadside tree
>> trimming, sewer working, and so forth is attended by one or more police
>> to direct traffic. Or sometimes to just stand around in the rain and
>> watch.
>>
>> But the answer to the question is that police will lobby for some kind
>> of law-enforcement override on vehicle control, for public safety.
>> They'll point a remote control at your vehicle, and it will drive as
>> directed. This will greatly simplify arresting people. A warrant will
>> trigger any self-driving automobile that contains such a person to lock
>> its doors and drive directly to the nearest police station. Miscreants
>> and malcontents will walk or bicycle if they want to go anywhere.
>>
>> Of course, old fashioned human-driven vehicles will not have these
>> advantages, and will consequently be barred from public ways.
>
> And a standard hack will be the switch that pulls the fuse on the
> autopilot.

Some of the autonomous vehicles being built by these companies have no pedals
or steering wheel.
Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #404076 is a reply to message #403992] Mon, 11 January 2021 16:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 09:13:35 -0500, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
> usenet@only.tnx (Questor) writes:
>> How will traffic officers direct self-driving cars?
>
> With a transmitter?

So anybody who can build a transmitter (or knows where to buy one) can direct
self-driving cars at their whim? The problem with a transmitter for law
enforcement is how to prevent unauthorized use.


> Seen a lot of traffic officers lately? Were they directing traffic away
> from an event or accident? Do you think there are other ways to do
> that other than standing in the street waving your arms?
>
> I see you have an arsenal of weapons to use in your quest.
> Thanks for trying to save us.

There is a lot of talk about how wonderful the (near) future of self-driving
cars is going to be. Some people are acting like it's already here, just "a
small matter of programming." I have seen very little being said about what
seem to be some very obvious problems.

We have seen this many times before with other technologies. There are glowing
promises in the beginning. The reality turns out to be not as safe, easy, or
cost effective as predicted. And then there are negative side effects that
people didn't consider -- but should have.

People should be talking about the issues I've been raising. The advocates have
contrary interests that preclude them from being forthright about the problems.
There should be more discussion about possible negative consequences before they
occur.
Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #404077 is a reply to message #404015] Mon, 11 January 2021 16:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 20:59:28 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:
> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>> On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 13:31:14 -0500, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 09:13:35 -0500, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >usenet@only.tnx (Questor) writes:
>>>> >
>>>> >> How will traffic officers direct self-driving cars?
>>>> >
>>>> >With a transmitter?
>>>>
>>>> Then how will they direct non-self-driving cars?
>>>
>>> With their hands?
>>
>> So the cop's standing there at an intersection and he's having to
>> figure out for each car "is this self-driving or human driven" and
>> apply the appropriate signal.
>
>
> You're a smart guy, figure out how to make it work. I suspect that
> the "transmitter" would be transmitting to all cars with a certain
> heading on specific routes, and the officer wouldn't give shit
> which are the autonomous vehicles and just give directions to all
> vehicles.
>
> They've been talking about meshing all autonomous vehicles for
> a decade now.

Great! Because we know how to safely and securely interconnect heterogeneous
computer systems and prevent hacking, spoofing, malware intrusions, deliberate
misinformation, and other malicious actors. Just look at the Internet for an
example!

What could possibly go wrong?
Re: autonomous car charging, was: Adobe oddity? [message #404078 is a reply to message #404016] Mon, 11 January 2021 16:58 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
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On Sun, 10 Jan 2021 21:20:22 +0000, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net>
wrote:
> If the self driving car doesn't understand the standard signals
> then it is not ready to be a fully autonomous vehicle IMHO. If it does then
> the cop doesn't need to know or care.

I admit to ignorance, but I don't know if there are actually standard signals
for traffic officers other than just pointing. If you've seen video clips of
flamboyent NYC traffic officers directing traffic -- and I think there's another
well-known example in Korea -- then it's clear there's a wide variation in how
it is done. In any case, traffic officers would have to be more rigorous about
making unambigous hand signals to facilitate their recognition by autonomous
vehicles.

And somehow autonomous cars will recognize the difference between a police
officer and some civilian who just walks out into the middle of the street and
makes the appropriate hand signals? Will autonomous cars recognize the
difference between a real police uniform and a Halloween costume as well?
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