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Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? [message #400578 is a reply to message #400571] Sat, 26 September 2020 14:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 2020-09-26, Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> wrote:

> I rarely if ever upgrade anything, once a system is stable. Really don't
> need the paranoia of security fixes every other day. As for Firefox,
> still on 52.9esr, as that's the last version that will run the classic
> theme restorer plugin. I like tabs below and icons grouped at one end
> etc, all kinds of stuff that Firefox's later revs have broken with no
> alternatives...

Have you tried Seamonkey? It preserves the classic browser interface.
I left Firefox at release 29. I _hate_ hamburger menus.

https://www.seamonkey-project.org

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.
Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? [message #400579 is a reply to message #400578] Sat, 26 September 2020 14:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ted@loft.tnolan.com ( is currently offline  ted@loft.tnolan.com (
Messages: 161
Registered: August 2012
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Senior Member
In article <rknvlp026b1@news1.newsguy.com>,
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> On 2020-09-26, Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> I rarely if ever upgrade anything, once a system is stable. Really don't
>> need the paranoia of security fixes every other day. As for Firefox,
>> still on 52.9esr, as that's the last version that will run the classic
>> theme restorer plugin. I like tabs below and icons grouped at one end
>> etc, all kinds of stuff that Firefox's later revs have broken with no
>> alternatives...
>
> Have you tried Seamonkey? It preserves the classic browser interface.
> I left Firefox at release 29. I _hate_ hamburger menus.
>
> https://www.seamonkey-project.org
>

You can still get tabs on the bottom with current FF, but it takes
some CSS. I usually have to google around until I find the incantation
to work with the new version. As I set upstream somewhere, it does
seem like I spend more time re-fiddling settings every time FF
releases a new version than I do upgrading to a new FreeBSD release.
(Put the new tab on the right border where I can find it, dang it!)
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? [message #400580 is a reply to message #400571] Sat, 26 September 2020 14:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Sat, 26 Sep 2020 16:25:05 +0100, Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk>
wrote:

> On 09/21/20 13:30, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
>> In article<rka5hq$nk8$1@gioia.aioe.org>,
>> Chris<xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 09/21/20 09:36, Bob Eager wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 20 Sep 2020 14:50:13 -0700, Massimo M. wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > i installed freebsd on a G8 microserver in less than 25 minutes, and a
>>>> > debian on a 1-cpu VM on a ryzen3600 with a unexpensive ssd in a quarter
>>>> > of hours.
>>>>
>>>> I don't even think it takes me that long to install FreeBSD, also on a G8
>>>> microserver! But then I am fairly used to it. 15 minutes, including some
>>>> custom stuff at a shell prompt along the way (I set up mirrored disks).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Need to add some for post install setup, stuff that isn't included in
>>> the basic install. Gui packages and config, customise rc.conf, ntp
>>> client, nfs mounts etc.
>>>
>>> But yes, faster than just about every other os for the basic install...
>>>
>>> Chris
>>
>> In my recent experience it is faster to install FreeBSD than to fix what the
>> lastest upgrade to Firefox has done to all my settings.
>>
>> And, then of course there's always the worst case install scenario for
>> anything:
>>
>> https://xkcd.com/349/
>
> I rarely if ever upgrade anything, once a system is stable. Really don't
> need the paranoia of security fixes every other day. As for Firefox,
> still on 52.9esr, as that's the last version that will run the classic
> theme restorer plugin. I like tabs below and icons grouped at one end
> etc, all kinds of stuff that Firefox's later revs have broken with no
> alternatives...

At work we get updates at least twice a month, whether we need them or
not and regardless of what mission-critical activity is taking place.
I suspect that that won't end until the CEO's machine reboots on him
in the middle of a meeting.

The ones that are really annoying are the ones where a popup appears,
says "reboot immediately", you shut everything down, reboot, an hour
later it's finished installing stuff, the machine comes up, and the
first thing that appears is a popup announcing an update to what was
ostensibly just updated.
Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? [message #400583 is a reply to message #400580] Sat, 26 September 2020 15:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Sat, 26 Sep 2020 14:27:28 -0400
J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:

> The ones that are really annoying are the ones where a popup appears,
> says "reboot immediately", you shut everything down, reboot, an hour
> later it's finished installing stuff, the machine comes up, and the
> first thing that appears is a popup announcing an update to what was
> ostensibly just updated.

Amen to that, I miss having a MacBook for work.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? [message #400595 is a reply to message #400578] Sat, 26 September 2020 21:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike Spencer is currently offline  Mike Spencer
Messages: 997
Registered: January 2012
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Senior Member
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:

> Have you tried Seamonkey? It preserves the classic browser interface.
> I left Firefox at release 29. I _hate_ hamburger menus.
>
> https://www.seamonkey-project.org

Since my last upgrade -- tedious and painful in part due to my
ignorance -- a year ago I've been using Seamonkey 2.40.

Big win is that I can turn images, js and cookies on & off from
popdown menus and can enlarge fonts from the keyboard.

OTOH, it totally garbles some sites' CSS, usually satisfactorily
resolved with View->Style->None menu option. On the rare occasions
when I venture to enable js, it sometimes apparently chokes or
shingles off onto the fog. One on single site where I depend on js,
it works as expected.

An option I would like is one that was automatic in Netscape 4 where,
when images were disabled, every <IMG... tag was represented by a
placeholder icon. Clicking that icon cause just that one image to be
fetched and rendered. That meant that I never saw banners, ads,
gratuitous photos of Donald Trump, cute dingbats, logos etc. but could
selectively retrieve the diagram showing how to reinstall the inner
spurving bearing pingfukkit thrust pin on my turboencabulator.

Such image icons appear infrequently and unpredictably with Seamonkey,
possibly due to new HTML syntax referencing images or perhaps POTM.


--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? [message #400599 is a reply to message #400567] Sun, 27 September 2020 03:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Niklas Karlsson is currently offline  Niklas Karlsson
Messages: 265
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 2020-09-26, Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> wrote:
> I log in in text mode, run 'startx' and get a simple window manager
> with some menus and four virtual screens, plus the classic xclock(1)
> and xload(1) in a corner. I don't see what value a desktop
> environment would add.

I've not run X in forever (barring the rare server-side app I project on
a local X server, but that is rare indeed), but what I found most
galling was that there were at least three ways copy/paste would work,
depending on what toolkit the app was written using.

Mind you, perhaps one can mostly stay away from Gtk apps and such.

Niklas
--
I defy anyone to find a mountain whereupon the dew is this particular
colour, and then return to tell me about it. And no fair wearing
rad-suits for the journey.
-- Carl Jacobs
Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? [message #400600 is a reply to message #400576] Sun, 27 September 2020 04:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Niklas Karlsson is currently offline  Niklas Karlsson
Messages: 265
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 2020-09-26, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> Mine changed from twm to fvwm to flwm between 1990 and the late
> 1990s but has remained unchanged ever since. Virtual desktops were a great
> addition and flwm has the nicest implementation IMHO.

flwm is good stuff, I used it for most of the time I ran Linux on the
desktop.

Niklas
--
Today's product of a disturbed mind: The image of an acoustic coupler
fitted with ball gags.
-- Steve VanDevender in asr
Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? [message #400601 is a reply to message #400571] Sun, 27 September 2020 04:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Niklas Karlsson is currently offline  Niklas Karlsson
Messages: 265
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 2020-09-26, Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> wrote:
> I rarely if ever upgrade anything, once a system is stable. Really don't
> need the paranoia of security fixes every other day. As for Firefox,
> still on 52.9esr, as that's the last version that will run the classic
> theme restorer plugin. I like tabs below and icons grouped at one end
> etc, all kinds of stuff that Firefox's later revs have broken with no
> alternatives...

I'm still miffed that Firefox redid its architecture and broke all old
plugins. I'm a massive tab hoarder and used Tab Mix Plus so I could have
multiple rows of tabs. That broke.

Niklas
--
Or worse - you end up in my back bedroom, covered in bubble wrap.
-- Jim
Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? [message #400604 is a reply to message #400599] Sun, 27 September 2020 07:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dan Espen is currently offline  Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> writes:

> On 2020-09-26, Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> wrote:
>> I log in in text mode, run 'startx' and get a simple window manager
>> with some menus and four virtual screens, plus the classic xclock(1)
>> and xload(1) in a corner. I don't see what value a desktop
>> environment would add.
>
> I've not run X in forever (barring the rare server-side app I project on
> a local X server, but that is rare indeed), but what I found most
> galling was that there were at least three ways copy/paste would work,
> depending on what toolkit the app was written using.

That is indeed a weakness in X. Copy paste is implemented at the
application level and it can vary. However, last time I looked,
windows always had an extra step involved in copy paste. You need to
stroke the stuff you want to copy, then select the copy option from
a popup menu. X11 applications are almost universal in supporting
stroke to copy, button 2 to paste.


--
Dan Espen
Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? [message #400606 is a reply to message #400604] Sun, 27 September 2020 10:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Sun, 27 Sep 2020 07:50:23 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> writes:
>
>> On 2020-09-26, Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> wrote:
>>> I log in in text mode, run 'startx' and get a simple window manager
>>> with some menus and four virtual screens, plus the classic xclock(1)
>>> and xload(1) in a corner. I don't see what value a desktop
>>> environment would add.
>>
>> I've not run X in forever (barring the rare server-side app I project on
>> a local X server, but that is rare indeed), but what I found most
>> galling was that there were at least three ways copy/paste would work,
>> depending on what toolkit the app was written using.
>
> That is indeed a weakness in X. Copy paste is implemented at the
> application level and it can vary. However, last time I looked,
> windows always had an extra step involved in copy paste. You need to
> stroke the stuff you want to copy, then select the copy option from
> a popup menu. X11 applications are almost universal in supporting
> stroke to copy, button 2 to paste.

In Windows applications that use the APIs and are correctly programmed
it's left-button-stroke to select, left-button-drag to cut-and-paste.

To copy it's left-button-stroke to select, left-button-ctrl-drag to
copy and paste.

In dragging between applications the ctrl- may be implied--that seems
to be a developer decision and may be user-controllable on some
applications. Dragging from the Visual Studio text editor to
Notepad++ for example copies, while dragging the other way cuts.

Do _not_ count on this working with any application that requires
MinGW or Cygwin or is written in portable Java.
Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? [message #400608 is a reply to message #400606] Sun, 27 September 2020 12:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dan Espen is currently offline  Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:

> On Sun, 27 Sep 2020 07:50:23 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> writes:
>>
>>> On 2020-09-26, Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> wrote:
>>>> I log in in text mode, run 'startx' and get a simple window manager
>>>> with some menus and four virtual screens, plus the classic xclock(1)
>>>> and xload(1) in a corner. I don't see what value a desktop
>>>> environment would add.
>>>
>>> I've not run X in forever (barring the rare server-side app I project on
>>> a local X server, but that is rare indeed), but what I found most
>>> galling was that there were at least three ways copy/paste would work,
>>> depending on what toolkit the app was written using.
>>
>> That is indeed a weakness in X. Copy paste is implemented at the
>> application level and it can vary. However, last time I looked,
>> windows always had an extra step involved in copy paste. You need to
>> stroke the stuff you want to copy, then select the copy option from
>> a popup menu. X11 applications are almost universal in supporting
>> stroke to copy, button 2 to paste.
>
> In Windows applications that use the APIs and are correctly programmed
> it's left-button-stroke to select, left-button-drag to cut-and-paste.

I thought just doing the stroke wasn't sufficient.
Oh well.

> To copy it's left-button-stroke to select, left-button-ctrl-drag to
> copy and paste.
>
> In dragging between applications the ctrl- may be implied--that seems
> to be a developer decision and may be user-controllable on some
> applications. Dragging from the Visual Studio text editor to
> Notepad++ for example copies, while dragging the other way cuts.
>
> Do _not_ count on this working with any application that requires
> MinGW or Cygwin or is written in portable Java.

That's interesting, I assumed Windows itself either did copy paste on
it's own or the tool kits made it real easy. Sounds like just like
X11, each application can go it's own way. Memory is vague, but
I thought Windows was way more consistent. I remember trying to
implement copy/paste in an X11 application that didn't use any
toolkit at all. It wasn't easy.

--
Dan Espen
Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? [message #400610 is a reply to message #400608] Sun, 27 September 2020 13:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Sun, 27 Sep 2020 12:32:10 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
wrote:

> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Sun, 27 Sep 2020 07:50:23 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 2020-09-26, Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> wrote:
>>>> > I log in in text mode, run 'startx' and get a simple window manager
>>>> > with some menus and four virtual screens, plus the classic xclock(1)
>>>> > and xload(1) in a corner. I don't see what value a desktop
>>>> > environment would add.
>>>>
>>>> I've not run X in forever (barring the rare server-side app I project on
>>>> a local X server, but that is rare indeed), but what I found most
>>>> galling was that there were at least three ways copy/paste would work,
>>>> depending on what toolkit the app was written using.
>>>
>>> That is indeed a weakness in X. Copy paste is implemented at the
>>> application level and it can vary. However, last time I looked,
>>> windows always had an extra step involved in copy paste. You need to
>>> stroke the stuff you want to copy, then select the copy option from
>>> a popup menu. X11 applications are almost universal in supporting
>>> stroke to copy, button 2 to paste.
>>
>> In Windows applications that use the APIs and are correctly programmed
>> it's left-button-stroke to select, left-button-drag to cut-and-paste.
>
> I thought just doing the stroke wasn't sufficient.
> Oh well.
>
>> To copy it's left-button-stroke to select, left-button-ctrl-drag to
>> copy and paste.
>>
>> In dragging between applications the ctrl- may be implied--that seems
>> to be a developer decision and may be user-controllable on some
>> applications. Dragging from the Visual Studio text editor to
>> Notepad++ for example copies, while dragging the other way cuts.
>>
>> Do _not_ count on this working with any application that requires
>> MinGW or Cygwin or is written in portable Java.
>
> That's interesting, I assumed Windows itself either did copy paste on
> it's own or the tool kits made it real easy. Sounds like just like
> X11, each application can go it's own way. Memory is vague, but
> I thought Windows was way more consistent. I remember trying to
> implement copy/paste in an X11 application that didn't use any
> toolkit at all. It wasn't easy.

You've hit on the problem. MinGW and CygWin don't result in
Windows-native applications, they result in *nix applications running
on a pseudo-*nix layered on top of Windows. And Java is off in its
own little universe.
Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? [message #400611 is a reply to message #400577] Sun, 27 September 2020 13:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> In article <20200926174911.3f339d7c1b52efaa8fffe54c@eircom.net>,
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>> On 26 Sep 2020 14:24:55 GMT
>> Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> wrote:
>>
>>> That's why I have no desktop environment -- there's nothing the UI
>>> enthusiasts can change. (Unless they deem X11 itself obsolete; then
>>> I would be in trouble.)
>>
>> There is Wayland which is aimed at doing just that.
>>
>>> My screen has looked the same since the late 1990s. (It looked the
>>> same at university in 1990 too, but then it was in black and white.)
>>
>> Mine changed from twm to fvwm to flwm between 1990 and the late
>> 1990s but has remained unchanged ever since. Virtual desktops were a great
>> addition and flwm has the nicest implementation IMHO.
>>
>>> I log in in text mode, run 'startx' and get a simple window manager
>>
>> startx & logout
>>
>>> with some menus and four virtual screens, plus the classic xclock(1)
>>> and xload(1) in a corner. I don't see what value a desktop
>>> environment would add.
>>
>> Many years ago when Gnome was first announced I built it and
>> installed it to see what the fuss was about. After an incredible length of
>> time the compilation finished (it took longer than building the base OS and
>> X11 combined). I fired it up and was seriously underwhelmed to see that the
>> result of all that compilation was a panel on the screen with a short
>> handful of widgets in it. I could have written something using C and Athena
>> that looked like that in the time it took to compile.
>>
>
> I remember trying to compile gnome on Solaris when it first came out (and
> before there were Solaris builds). It seemed to depend on every open source
> library ever written, so I spent weeks trying to compile the dependances.
> Never did get it finished.

I’ve run across several similar packages. After a while I give up and try
to find an alternate solution.

--
Pete
Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? [message #400612 is a reply to message #400580] Sun, 27 September 2020 13:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Sep 2020 16:25:05 +0100, Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> On 09/21/20 13:30, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
>>> In article<rka5hq$nk8$1@gioia.aioe.org>,
>>> Chris<xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 09/21/20 09:36, Bob Eager wrote:
>>>> > On Sun, 20 Sep 2020 14:50:13 -0700, Massimo M. wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> i installed freebsd on a G8 microserver in less than 25 minutes, and a
>>>> >> debian on a 1-cpu VM on a ryzen3600 with a unexpensive ssd in a quarter
>>>> >> of hours.
>>>> >
>>>> > I don't even think it takes me that long to install FreeBSD, also on a G8
>>>> > microserver! But then I am fairly used to it. 15 minutes, including some
>>>> > custom stuff at a shell prompt along the way (I set up mirrored disks).
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> Need to add some for post install setup, stuff that isn't included in
>>>> the basic install. Gui packages and config, customise rc.conf, ntp
>>>> client, nfs mounts etc.
>>>>
>>>> But yes, faster than just about every other os for the basic install...
>>>>
>>>> Chris
>>>
>>> In my recent experience it is faster to install FreeBSD than to fix what the
>>> lastest upgrade to Firefox has done to all my settings.
>>>
>>> And, then of course there's always the worst case install scenario for
>>> anything:
>>>
>>> https://xkcd.com/349/
>>
>> I rarely if ever upgrade anything, once a system is stable. Really don't
>> need the paranoia of security fixes every other day. As for Firefox,
>> still on 52.9esr, as that's the last version that will run the classic
>> theme restorer plugin. I like tabs below and icons grouped at one end
>> etc, all kinds of stuff that Firefox's later revs have broken with no
>> alternatives...
>
> At work we get updates at least twice a month, whether we need them or
> not and regardless of what mission-critical activity is taking place.
> I suspect that that won't end until the CEO's machine reboots on him
> in the middle of a meeting.
>
> The ones that are really annoying are the ones where a popup appears,
> says "reboot immediately", you shut everything down, reboot, an hour
> later it's finished installing stuff, the machine comes up, and the
> first thing that appears is a popup announcing an update to what was
> ostensibly just updated.
>

Since it’s work, presumably they wouldn’t like it if you unplugged your
network cable overnight.

--
Pete
Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? [message #400613 is a reply to message #400608] Sun, 27 September 2020 13:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Sun, 27 Sep 2020 07:50:23 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 2020-09-26, Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> wrote:
>>>> > I log in in text mode, run 'startx' and get a simple window manager
>>>> > with some menus and four virtual screens, plus the classic xclock(1)
>>>> > and xload(1) in a corner. I don't see what value a desktop
>>>> > environment would add.
>>>>
>>>> I've not run X in forever (barring the rare server-side app I project on
>>>> a local X server, but that is rare indeed), but what I found most
>>>> galling was that there were at least three ways copy/paste would work,
>>>> depending on what toolkit the app was written using.
>>>
>>> That is indeed a weakness in X. Copy paste is implemented at the
>>> application level and it can vary. However, last time I looked,
>>> windows always had an extra step involved in copy paste. You need to
>>> stroke the stuff you want to copy, then select the copy option from
>>> a popup menu. X11 applications are almost universal in supporting
>>> stroke to copy, button 2 to paste.
>>
>> In Windows applications that use the APIs and are correctly programmed
>> it's left-button-stroke to select, left-button-drag to cut-and-paste.
>
> I thought just doing the stroke wasn't sufficient.
> Oh well.
>
>> To copy it's left-button-stroke to select, left-button-ctrl-drag to
>> copy and paste.
>>
>> In dragging between applications the ctrl- may be implied--that seems
>> to be a developer decision and may be user-controllable on some
>> applications. Dragging from the Visual Studio text editor to
>> Notepad++ for example copies, while dragging the other way cuts.
>>
>> Do _not_ count on this working with any application that requires
>> MinGW or Cygwin or is written in portable Java.
>
> That's interesting, I assumed Windows itself either did copy paste on
> it's own or the tool kits made it real easy. Sounds like just like
> X11, each application can go it's own way. Memory is vague, but
> I thought Windows was way more consistent. I remember trying to
> implement copy/paste in an X11 application that didn't use any
> toolkit at all. It wasn't easy.
>

I suppose what “paste” means can depend on the congruence of what is cut
and what it is being pasted into.

--
Pete
Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? [message #400620 is a reply to message #400612] Sun, 27 September 2020 15:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Sun, 27 Sep 2020 10:38:09 -0700, Peter Flass
<peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:

> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 26 Sep 2020 16:25:05 +0100, Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 09/21/20 13:30, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
>>>> In article<rka5hq$nk8$1@gioia.aioe.org>,
>>>> Chris<xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> > On 09/21/20 09:36, Bob Eager wrote:
>>>> >> On Sun, 20 Sep 2020 14:50:13 -0700, Massimo M. wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> i installed freebsd on a G8 microserver in less than 25 minutes, and a
>>>> >>> debian on a 1-cpu VM on a ryzen3600 with a unexpensive ssd in a quarter
>>>> >>> of hours.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I don't even think it takes me that long to install FreeBSD, also on a G8
>>>> >> microserver! But then I am fairly used to it. 15 minutes, including some
>>>> >> custom stuff at a shell prompt along the way (I set up mirrored disks).
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> > Need to add some for post install setup, stuff that isn't included in
>>>> > the basic install. Gui packages and config, customise rc.conf, ntp
>>>> > client, nfs mounts etc.
>>>> >
>>>> > But yes, faster than just about every other os for the basic install...
>>>> >
>>>> > Chris
>>>>
>>>> In my recent experience it is faster to install FreeBSD than to fix what the
>>>> lastest upgrade to Firefox has done to all my settings.
>>>>
>>>> And, then of course there's always the worst case install scenario for
>>>> anything:
>>>>
>>>> https://xkcd.com/349/
>>>
>>> I rarely if ever upgrade anything, once a system is stable. Really don't
>>> need the paranoia of security fixes every other day. As for Firefox,
>>> still on 52.9esr, as that's the last version that will run the classic
>>> theme restorer plugin. I like tabs below and icons grouped at one end
>>> etc, all kinds of stuff that Firefox's later revs have broken with no
>>> alternatives...
>>
>> At work we get updates at least twice a month, whether we need them or
>> not and regardless of what mission-critical activity is taking place.
>> I suspect that that won't end until the CEO's machine reboots on him
>> in the middle of a meeting.
>>
>> The ones that are really annoying are the ones where a popup appears,
>> says "reboot immediately", you shut everything down, reboot, an hour
>> later it's finished installing stuff, the machine comes up, and the
>> first thing that appears is a popup announcing an update to what was
>> ostensibly just updated.
>>
>
> Since it’s work, presumably they wouldn’t like it if you unplugged your
> network cable overnight.

It's their computer, so I have to let them do what they want to with
it. On the other hand, the IT department is not run by a Windows
person, so he's deathly afraid of malware--he hasn't learned that the
_true_ malware threat is all the worthless crap that is foisted off on
corporate America as "protection against malware".
Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? [message #400621 is a reply to message #400613] Sun, 27 September 2020 15:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Sun, 27 Sep 2020 10:38:10 -0700, Peter Flass
<peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> On Sun, 27 Sep 2020 07:50:23 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> writes:
>>>>
>>>> > On 2020-09-26, Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> wrote:
>>>> >> I log in in text mode, run 'startx' and get a simple window manager
>>>> >> with some menus and four virtual screens, plus the classic xclock(1)
>>>> >> and xload(1) in a corner. I don't see what value a desktop
>>>> >> environment would add.
>>>> >
>>>> > I've not run X in forever (barring the rare server-side app I project on
>>>> > a local X server, but that is rare indeed), but what I found most
>>>> > galling was that there were at least three ways copy/paste would work,
>>>> > depending on what toolkit the app was written using.
>>>>
>>>> That is indeed a weakness in X. Copy paste is implemented at the
>>>> application level and it can vary. However, last time I looked,
>>>> windows always had an extra step involved in copy paste. You need to
>>>> stroke the stuff you want to copy, then select the copy option from
>>>> a popup menu. X11 applications are almost universal in supporting
>>>> stroke to copy, button 2 to paste.
>>>
>>> In Windows applications that use the APIs and are correctly programmed
>>> it's left-button-stroke to select, left-button-drag to cut-and-paste.
>>
>> I thought just doing the stroke wasn't sufficient.
>> Oh well.
>>
>>> To copy it's left-button-stroke to select, left-button-ctrl-drag to
>>> copy and paste.
>>>
>>> In dragging between applications the ctrl- may be implied--that seems
>>> to be a developer decision and may be user-controllable on some
>>> applications. Dragging from the Visual Studio text editor to
>>> Notepad++ for example copies, while dragging the other way cuts.
>>>
>>> Do _not_ count on this working with any application that requires
>>> MinGW or Cygwin or is written in portable Java.
>>
>> That's interesting, I assumed Windows itself either did copy paste on
>> it's own or the tool kits made it real easy. Sounds like just like
>> X11, each application can go it's own way. Memory is vague, but
>> I thought Windows was way more consistent. I remember trying to
>> implement copy/paste in an X11 application that didn't use any
>> toolkit at all. It wasn't easy.
>>
>
> I suppose what “paste” means can depend on the congruence of what is cut
> and what it is being pasted into.

That is certainly true--pasting an image into a text-only editor
doesn't work. Otoh, dragging the contents of an Excel cell has varied
resultes depending on the target.
Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? [message #400623 is a reply to message #400599] Sun, 27 September 2020 18:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
scott is currently offline  scott
Messages: 4237
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> writes:
> On 2020-09-26, Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> wrote:
>> I log in in text mode, run 'startx' and get a simple window manager
>> with some menus and four virtual screens, plus the classic xclock(1)
>> and xload(1) in a corner. I don't see what value a desktop
>> environment would add.
>
> I've not run X in forever (barring the rare server-side app I project on
> a local X server, but that is rare indeed), but what I found most
> galling was that there were at least three ways copy/paste would work,
> depending on what toolkit the app was written using.

Really? I've not encountered that. Select with the mouse and
paste with the middle button has worked with every Unix and
Linux gui and application that I've used.

It does sometimes get weird when VNC gets involved.
Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? [message #400632 is a reply to message #400606] Mon, 28 September 2020 04:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Niklas Karlsson is currently offline  Niklas Karlsson
Messages: 265
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 2020-09-27, J Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> In Windows applications that use the APIs and are correctly programmed
> it's left-button-stroke to select, left-button-drag to cut-and-paste.

PuTTY, which I use daily, is of course an aberration. It attempts to
emulate the classic X behaviour, putting the stroked text into the
buffer immediately and then pasting with the right button (would be
middle on a proper *nix machine, I suppose).

I've learned this behaviour and it's now automatic for me, but
inconsistency is rarely a good thing.

Niklas
--
I find it ironic that women are happy that their men shell out big bucks
for Viagra, but yet when rigor mortis sets in they want no part of it.
-- Daniel E. Macks, in rec.humor.oracle.d
Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? [message #400633 is a reply to message #400623] Mon, 28 September 2020 04:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Niklas Karlsson is currently offline  Niklas Karlsson
Messages: 265
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 2020-09-27, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
> Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> writes:
>> I've not run X in forever (barring the rare server-side app I project on
>> a local X server, but that is rare indeed), but what I found most
>> galling was that there were at least three ways copy/paste would work,
>> depending on what toolkit the app was written using.
>
> Really? I've not encountered that. Select with the mouse and
> paste with the middle button has worked with every Unix and
> Linux gui and application that I've used.

Perhaps I came in at a rather awkward time. It would have been around 20
years ago, when GNOME and KDE were competing.

Niklas
--
Okay... so your machines are pipes... Does that mean you label the
tapes/floppies/cdroms in it things like "hash", "maryjane" and
"terbacca"?
-- Thorfinn
Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? [message #400640 is a reply to message #400633] Mon, 28 September 2020 12:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
scott is currently offline  scott
Messages: 4237
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> writes:
> On 2020-09-27, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>> Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> writes:
>>> I've not run X in forever (barring the rare server-side app I project on
>>> a local X server, but that is rare indeed), but what I found most
>>> galling was that there were at least three ways copy/paste would work,
>>> depending on what toolkit the app was written using.
>>
>> Really? I've not encountered that. Select with the mouse and
>> paste with the middle button has worked with every Unix and
>> Linux gui and application that I've used.
>
> Perhaps I came in at a rather awkward time. It would have been around 20
> years ago, when GNOME and KDE were competing.
>

There are some oddities in X11 with respect to single click/double click
depending on the Xresources associated with the application (e.g. xterm).

Xterm by default is configured so that a double click will select the
'word' under the mouse cursor, while the third click will extend the
selection to the entire line and four will extend to the entire paragraph,
while five will select the contents of the window.

What constitutes a "word" in this context is dependent up on the xterm
resource VT100.charClass:

From .Xresources (loaded with xrdb(1)):

! for urls
!*charClass: 33:48,35:48,37-38:48,43-47:48,58:48,61:48,63-64:48,95:48,126 :48
! for filenames
*VT100*charClass: 33:48,37:48,45-47:48,38:48

If the URL charclass is uncommented, a double click will
highlight the word including all URL punctuation characters,
where as the filename class will include such things as the
path separation characters, but not glob characters (*, ?)
or colon.

GTK defaults for Gnome Terminal will be different from xterm.
Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? [message #400654 is a reply to message #400632] Tue, 29 September 2020 02:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Stefan Möding

Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> writes:

> PuTTY, which I use daily, is of course an aberration. It attempts to
> emulate the classic X behaviour, putting the stroked text into the
> buffer immediately and then pasting with the right button (would be
> middle on a proper *nix machine, I suppose).

You can switch to the xterm behavior: look into the config menu under
Window->Selection

Also one of the things I have to update when setting up a new Putty.

--
Stefan
Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? [message #400656 is a reply to message #400654] Tue, 29 September 2020 04:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Niklas Karlsson is currently offline  Niklas Karlsson
Messages: 265
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 2020-09-29, Stefan Möding <Sep2020.5.kill-9@spamgourmet.com> wrote:
> Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> writes:
>
>> PuTTY, which I use daily, is of course an aberration. It attempts to
>> emulate the classic X behaviour, putting the stroked text into the
>> buffer immediately and then pasting with the right button (would be
>> middle on a proper *nix machine, I suppose).
>
> You can switch to the xterm behavior: look into the config menu under
> Window->Selection
>
> Also one of the things I have to update when setting up a new Putty.

Thanks, good to know. However, I'm so accustomed to the default
behaviour by now that I'll probably stick with it. :)

Niklas
--
* Progress (n.): The process through which Usenet has evolved from
smart people in front of dumb terminals to dumb people in front of
smart terminals. -- obs@burnout.demon.co.uk (obscurity)
Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? [message #400864 is a reply to message #400633] Wed, 07 October 2020 14:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jorgen Grahn is currently offline  Jorgen Grahn
Messages: 606
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Mon, 2020-09-28, Niklas Karlsson wrote:
> On 2020-09-27, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>> Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> writes:
>>> I've not run X in forever (barring the rare server-side app I project on
>>> a local X server, but that is rare indeed), but what I found most
>>> galling was that there were at least three ways copy/paste would work,
>>> depending on what toolkit the app was written using.
>>
>> Really? I've not encountered that. Select with the mouse and
>> paste with the middle button has worked with every Unix and
>> Linux gui and application that I've used.
>
> Perhaps I came in at a rather awkward time. It would have been around 20
> years ago, when GNOME and KDE were competing.

No; it's still like that. Combine:

- xterm and friends (original Athena applications)
- the Gtk build of Emacs (maybe I've misconfigured cut/paste
for this one)
- Firefox
- VirtualBox, when I run Linux in such a VM

and the mechanisms:
- copy by selecting with the mouse
- copy with Ctrl-C
- cut with e.g. Ctrl-K in Emacs
- paste with middle button
- paste with Ctrl-V
- paste with Shift-Insert

I can't always predict what works, and it's obvious that there are at
least two clipboard buffers, and for some reason people can't agree on
which one to use. It's been like that since at least Motif in the
early 1990s.

/Jorgen

--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? [message #400930 is a reply to message #399971] Fri, 09 October 2020 17:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kelli Halliburton is currently offline  Kelli Halliburton
Messages: 132
Registered: August 2003
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 4:57:16 AM UTC-5, gareth evans wrote:
> Having cut my teeth on a naked PDP11 with no OS, and thus
> was in complete control of the machine, what I seek is an OS
> that runs only the programs that I wish, and that does not
> have shedloads of daemons and background processes that I did not
> launch.
>
> So, an OS with Internet and printer support, a graphics window package
> and bugger-all else?

On what hardware?

There are plenty of small-footprint solutions out there, but they exist because the platform on which they run have extremely limited resources. For example, one can browse the web with TheWave running on GEOS/Wheels for the Commodore 64, assuming you have the 65816 CPU necessary to run Wheels, and one of the various internet interfaces that are compatible. And with a printer interface adapter, you can also print to a relatively recent PCL or PostScript printer with the same software setup.

For a brief period of time, there was an OS called Contiki with a total footprint of 10KB of RAM and 30KB of ROM, that could run a windowing system in a total of 40KB of RAM, that was being ported to all kinds of constrained systems, including old micros, but the project seems to have been refocused on embedded hardware.

On the popular Raspberry Pi, there's RiscOS; which dates back to the earliest days of ARM in the Acorn Archimedes, and still is very compact.

If you have a craving to buy expensive and poorly-supported hardware, there are versions of AmigaOS that run on PowerPC systems, specifically a few slightly-tweaked development boards and a couple of full custom designs, and while that OS has increased in size a bit over the years, it's still quite small. There's even a recent version of the OS for the old Motorola 68k based systems.

On the x86-64 platform, there's such semi-orphaned but still-maintained projects as OpenSTEP or Haiku, both of which still fall victim to some of the issues you raise, but to far less an extent than the latest versions of 'mainstream' operating systems such as Windows, macOS, or Linux.

All that being said, though... there's nothing like rolling your own. There are more than a few projects out there where people are building their own computers and writing the OS from scratch. You like the PDP-11? The Motorola 68k series uses virtually the same mnemonics for its instruction set. (Sure, it's not the same as an LSI-11, but there are far more 68k chips on the salvage market.) Why not go find a project where someone has built a 68k-based micro, build one like it, and write software for it to whatever level of sophistication or crudity suits you?
Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? [message #402277 is a reply to message #400930] Wed, 18 November 2020 13:18 Go to previous message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Stewart Russell

On Friday, October 9, 2020 at 5:07:45 p.m. UTC-4, Kelli Halliburton wrote:
>
> On the popular Raspberry Pi, there's RiscOS; which dates back to the earliest days of ARM in the Acorn Archimedes, and still is very compact.

RISC OS Pico is incredibly small, and runs (IIRC) on several ARM SBCs.

* Cooperative multitasking: you get to say what runs, where.
* Manual memory allocation
* Mostly written in ARM assembly language
* Boots straight to a shell
* Open source (for some definition of that term)

You might not like the forked filesystem and the max 2 GB filesystem size, but they're how RISC OS do.
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