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A naked PDP11 [message #400089] Wed, 16 September 2020 08:11 Go to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: gareth evans

I may have mentioned before (briefly, in passing :-) ) that I
cut my teeth on a naked PDP11 in assembler and machine code during
a summer undergraduate internship in 1971. (45 minutes to load the
assembler via the 10cps tape reader of the Teletype :-( )

It is salutary to muse that this is now 49 years ago, and that
49 years previously it was 1922, before the days of regular
radio broadcasting when the man-on-the-Clapham-Omnibus
(John Doe to the Yanks) knew nothing of electronics*****, and
certainly a decade and a half before electronic computers
were even considered. For most people (here in Brit, at least)
there were no telephones or motor cars.

What technical advances were made during that previous 49 years!

Perhaps even greater advances have been made in computing in the
next 49 years up till now such that those of us who were extant
in 1971 have now been described, somewhat unkindly, as dinosaurs.

Not during that internship, but in subsequent employment in the
same place, when the first Decwriter was delivered, the pallet
upon which it was attached was not some
conglomeration of roughly cut timbers but was a two sheets of
high quality 3/4" thick plywood. The pallet was scrapped and was
mde by me and the wife into our first bookcase which we still
have to this day.

I did have cause to panic on one occasion when the covers were off,
and I dropped a screwdriver onto the wire-wrapped backplane of the
DecTapes when power was applied. On another occasion, I was in the
processor box with a small screwdriver to adjust the clock that
drove the Teletype serial port.

***** I did read somewhere that the seminal background work
for the Field Effect Transistor happened in about 1910.

Is this post a wind-up? Only to help your day go like clockwork! :-)
Re: A naked PDP11 [message #400093 is a reply to message #400089] Wed, 16 September 2020 11:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
scott is currently offline  scott
Messages: 4237
Registered: February 2012
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Senior Member
gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> writes:

> It is salutary to muse that this is now 49 years ago, and that
> 49 years previously it was 1922, before the days of regular
> radio broadcasting when the man-on-the-Clapham-Omnibus
> (John Doe to the Yanks) knew nothing of electronics*****, and
> certainly a decade and a half before electronic computers
> were even considered. For most people (here in Brit, at least)
> there were no telephones or motor cars.

I think the yanks would say 'Joe Sixpack'. John Doe
is reserved for unidentified corpses.
Re: A naked PDP11 and not much new since [message #400094 is a reply to message #400089] Wed, 16 September 2020 12:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
John Levine is currently offline  John Levine
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Registered: December 2011
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Senior Member
In article <rjsvdd$jji$1@dont-email.me>,
gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
> It is salutary to muse that this is now 49 years ago, and that
> 49 years previously it was 1922, before the days of regular
> radio broadcasting ...

> What technical advances were made during that previous 49 years!

Well, the flip flop was invented in 1918 but for quite a while was
considered a curiosity.

There was a stupendous amount of progress in computing from about 1945
to 1970. Since then you will have to look really hard to find anything
that isn't just working out the details. Remember that Englebart's
Mother of All Demos, introducing us to windows and mice, was in 1968.

--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
Re: A naked PDP11 [message #400096 is a reply to message #400093] Wed, 16 September 2020 12:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: JimP

On Wed, 16 Sep 2020 15:06:52 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:
> gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>> It is salutary to muse that this is now 49 years ago, and that
>> 49 years previously it was 1922, before the days of regular
>> radio broadcasting when the man-on-the-Clapham-Omnibus
>> (John Doe to the Yanks) knew nothing of electronics*****, and
>> certainly a decade and a half before electronic computers
>> were even considered. For most people (here in Brit, at least)
>> there were no telephones or motor cars.
>
> I think the yanks would say 'Joe Sixpack'. John Doe
> is reserved for unidentified corpses.

Sixpack is recent. John Doe was for anyone whose real name was
unknown. Even living people.

--
Jim
Re: A naked PDP11 [message #400100 is a reply to message #400093] Wed, 16 September 2020 13:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
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Senior Member
On 2020-09-16, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:

> gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>> It is salutary to muse that this is now 49 years ago, and that
>> 49 years previously it was 1922, before the days of regular
>> radio broadcasting when the man-on-the-Clapham-Omnibus
>> (John Doe to the Yanks) knew nothing of electronics*****, and
>> certainly a decade and a half before electronic computers
>> were even considered. For most people (here in Brit, at least)
>> there were no telephones or motor cars.
>
> I think the yanks would say 'Joe Sixpack'. John Doe
> is reserved for unidentified corpses.

I seem to recall that 49 years ago "John Doe" was a much more
generic term than it is today.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.
Re: A naked PDP11 and not much new since [message #400101 is a reply to message #400094] Wed, 16 September 2020 13:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Wed, 16 Sep 2020 16:24:12 -0000 (UTC), John Levine
<johnl@taugh.com> wrote:

> In article <rjsvdd$jji$1@dont-email.me>,
> gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> It is salutary to muse that this is now 49 years ago, and that
>> 49 years previously it was 1922, before the days of regular
>> radio broadcasting ...
>
>> What technical advances were made during that previous 49 years!
>
> Well, the flip flop was invented in 1918 but for quite a while was
> considered a curiosity.
>
> There was a stupendous amount of progress in computing from about 1945
> to 1970. Since then you will have to look really hard to find anything
> that isn't just working out the details. Remember that Englebart's
> Mother of All Demos, introducing us to windows and mice, was in 1968.

But the first microprocessor shipped in 1971. That's hardly "working
out the details.
Re: A naked PDP11 and not much new since [message #400106 is a reply to message #400094] Wed, 16 September 2020 14:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
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Senior Member
John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
> In article <rjsvdd$jji$1@dont-email.me>,
> gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> It is salutary to muse that this is now 49 years ago, and that
>> 49 years previously it was 1922, before the days of regular
>> radio broadcasting ...
>
>> What technical advances were made during that previous 49 years!
>
> Well, the flip flop was invented in 1918 but for quite a while was
> considered a curiosity.

Now, everyone wears them;-)

--
Pete
Re: A naked PDP11 and not much new since [message #400120 is a reply to message #400101] Wed, 16 September 2020 17:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
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Senior Member
On Wed, 16 Sep 2020 13:49:22 -0400
J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 16 Sep 2020 16:24:12 -0000 (UTC), John Levine
> <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
>
>> In article <rjsvdd$jji$1@dont-email.me>,
>> gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> It is salutary to muse that this is now 49 years ago, and that
>>> 49 years previously it was 1922, before the days of regular
>>> radio broadcasting ...
>>
>>> What technical advances were made during that previous 49 years!
>>
>> Well, the flip flop was invented in 1918 but for quite a while was
>> considered a curiosity.
>>
>> There was a stupendous amount of progress in computing from about 1945
>> to 1970. Since then you will have to look really hard to find anything
>> that isn't just working out the details. Remember that Englebart's
>> Mother of All Demos, introducing us to windows and mice, was in 1968.
>
> But the first microprocessor shipped in 1971. That's hardly "working
> out the details.

In a way it was even less because the microprocessor caused a
reprise of some early computer architectures until the circuit density got
up to putting state of the art CPU architectures on chip after which
smaller, cheaper, faster but nothing really new in the CPU (ok there's a
GPU too these days but there's nothing really new in there except scale).
At least until the core count started to rise, the very large core counts
are more than just incremental improvements there's some clever work in
there.

I think one major area of understanding that has grown since the
1970s is distributed systems and the fault tolerance they require. I was
trying to pin down a date for two phased commit which I first came across
in the late 1980s being talked about as a new and exiting thing. There's
been a lot of work on atomic commits and group consensus since then. Then
there's all the store and forward on steroids stuff known as eventual
consistency.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: A naked PDP11 [message #400132 is a reply to message #400089] Wed, 16 September 2020 20:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andreas Kohlbach is currently offline  Andreas Kohlbach
Messages: 1456
Registered: December 2011
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Senior Member
On Wed, 16 Sep 2020 13:11:18 +0100, gareth evans wrote:
>
> I may have mentioned before (briefly, in passing :-) ) that I
> cut my teeth on a naked PDP11 in assembler and machine code during
> a summer undergraduate internship in 1971. (45 minutes to load the
> assembler via the 10cps tape reader of the Teletype :-( )
>
> It is salutary to muse that this is now 49 years ago, and that
> 49 years previously it was 1922, before the days of regular
> radio broadcasting when the man-on-the-Clapham-Omnibus
> (John Doe to the Yanks) knew nothing of electronics*****, and
> certainly a decade and a half before electronic computers
> were even considered. For most people (here in Brit, at least)
> there were no telephones or motor cars.

Had a similar feeling about Back To The Future. It was set (and on the
big screen for the first part) in 1985. Then they went back 30 years to
1955. 2015 marked the 15th anniversary. 1985 doesn't felt so different to
2015 regarding existing 1985 technology. But technology made a big leap
between 1955 and 1985.
--
Andreas

https://news-commentaries.blogspot.com/
Re: A naked PDP11 and not much new since [message #400133 is a reply to message #400101] Wed, 16 September 2020 20:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andreas Kohlbach is currently offline  Andreas Kohlbach
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On Wed, 16 Sep 2020 13:49:22 -0400, J. Clarke wrote:
>
> On Wed, 16 Sep 2020 16:24:12 -0000 (UTC), John Levine
> <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
>
>> Well, the flip flop was invented in 1918 but for quite a while was
>> considered a curiosity.
>>
>> There was a stupendous amount of progress in computing from about 1945
>> to 1970. Since then you will have to look really hard to find anything
>> that isn't just working out the details. Remember that Englebart's
>> Mother of All Demos, introducing us to windows and mice, was in 1968.
>
> But the first microprocessor shipped in 1971.

That shipped to the public. The first was the Central Air Data Computer
(MP944), used by the US Navy in the F-14 Tomcat jet fighter.
--
Andreas
Re: A naked PDP11 and not much new since [message #400135 is a reply to message #400101] Wed, 16 September 2020 21:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
John Levine is currently offline  John Levine
Messages: 1405
Registered: December 2011
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Senior Member
In article <gvj4mfhpvdfl280m5o5707dq52d7vu5udh@4ax.com>,
J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Well, the flip flop was invented in 1918 but for quite a while was
>> considered a curiosity.
>>
>> There was a stupendous amount of progress in computing from about 1945
>> to 1970. Since then you will have to look really hard to find anything
>> that isn't just working out the details. Remember that Englebart's
>> Mother of All Demos, introducing us to windows and mice, was in 1968.
>
> But the first microprocessor shipped in 1971. That's hardly "working
> out the details.

The idea of putting multiple components in one device goes back to
vacuum tubes in the 1920s. During the 1950s and 1960s, semiconductor
makers put increasing numbers of components on a chip each year, so
they needed fewer and fewer chips to make a working computer. In 1971
the number dropped to 1, but that was utterly predictable from what
had been going on for the previous decade. Sure sounds like working
out the details to me.

--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
Re: A naked PDP11 and not much new since [message #400136 is a reply to message #400135] Wed, 16 September 2020 21:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Thu, 17 Sep 2020 01:01:45 -0000 (UTC), John Levine
<johnl@taugh.com> wrote:

> In article <gvj4mfhpvdfl280m5o5707dq52d7vu5udh@4ax.com>,
> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Well, the flip flop was invented in 1918 but for quite a while was
>>> considered a curiosity.
>>>
>>> There was a stupendous amount of progress in computing from about 1945
>>> to 1970. Since then you will have to look really hard to find anything
>>> that isn't just working out the details. Remember that Englebart's
>>> Mother of All Demos, introducing us to windows and mice, was in 1968.
>>
>> But the first microprocessor shipped in 1971. That's hardly "working
>> out the details.
>
> The idea of putting multiple components in one device goes back to
> vacuum tubes in the 1920s. During the 1950s and 1960s, semiconductor
> makers put increasing numbers of components on a chip each year, so
> they needed fewer and fewer chips to make a working computer. In 1971
> the number dropped to 1, but that was utterly predictable from what
> had been going on for the previous decade. Sure sounds like working
> out the details to me.


Call it what you want to. It's more than "details".
Re: A naked PDP11 and not much new since [message #400138 is a reply to message #400094] Thu, 17 September 2020 00:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: David Lesher

John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> writes:


> There was a stupendous amount of progress in computing from
> about 1945 to 1970. Since then you will have to look really
> hard to find anything that isn't just working out the details.
> Remember that Englebart's Mother of All Demos, introducing us
> to windows and mice, was in 1968.

A friend noted his grandmother was born before the Wright
Brothers first flew, but lived to see Tranquility Base.

The times, they are a changen....
--
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close..........................
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
Re: A naked PDP11 [message #400143 is a reply to message #400132] Thu, 17 September 2020 02:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
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Senior Member
On Wed, 16 Sep 2020 20:18:45 -0400
Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:

> Had a similar feeling about Back To The Future. It was set (and on the
> big screen for the first part) in 1985. Then they went back 30 years to
> 1955. 2015 marked the 15th anniversary. 1985 doesn't felt so different to
> 2015 regarding existing 1985 technology. But technology made a big leap
> between 1955 and 1985.

Take a recent cellphone, throw a handful of movies on it (include
some Pixar animations) throw a 50" flatscreen smart TV in the back of your
DeLorean and head off to 1985 and see if *they* think technology has made
big leaps. Then tell them how much international bandwidth that phone
represents in 2020 and watch them cry over their 2400bps modem that is so
troublesome.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: A naked PDP11 and not much new since [message #400147 is a reply to message #400138] Thu, 17 September 2020 03:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
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On Thu, 17 Sep 2020 04:15:36 +0000 (UTC)
David Lesher <wb8foz@panix.com> wrote:

> A friend noted his grandmother was born before the Wright
> Brothers first flew, but lived to see Tranquility Base.

Neil Armstrong was 18 when Orville Wright died, they could just (but
didn't) have met as adults.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: A naked PDP11 [message #400159 is a reply to message #400143] Thu, 17 September 2020 11:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andreas Kohlbach is currently offline  Andreas Kohlbach
Messages: 1456
Registered: December 2011
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On Thu, 17 Sep 2020 07:11:14 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>
> On Wed, 16 Sep 2020 20:18:45 -0400
> Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>
>> Had a similar feeling about Back To The Future. It was set (and on the
>> big screen for the first part) in 1985. Then they went back 30 years to
>> 1955. 2015 marked the 15th anniversary. 1985 doesn't felt so different to
>> 2015 regarding existing 1985 technology. But technology made a big leap
>> between 1955 and 1985.
>
> Take a recent cellphone, throw a handful of movies on it (include
> some Pixar animations) throw a 50" flatscreen smart TV in the back of your
> DeLorean and head off to 1985 and see if *they* think technology has made
> big leaps. Then tell them how much international bandwidth that phone
> represents in 2020 and watch them cry over their 2400bps modem that is so
> troublesome.

That's just updates to existing technology, developed before
1990. Firescreens existed 1985, just not that big.

My guess is that the invention of the microprocessor was "the thing",
starting the (micro) computer revolution. That's 70s tech still used
today (just updated).
--
Andreas

PGP fingerprint 952B0A9F12C2FD6C9F7E68DAA9C2EA89D1A370E0
Re: A naked PDP11 and not much new since [message #400163 is a reply to message #400138] Thu, 17 September 2020 14:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
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Registered: December 2011
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Senior Member
David Lesher <wb8foz@panix.com> wrote:
> John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> writes:
>
>
>> There was a stupendous amount of progress in computing from
>> about 1945 to 1970. Since then you will have to look really
>> hard to find anything that isn't just working out the details.
>> Remember that Englebart's Mother of All Demos, introducing us
>> to windows and mice, was in 1968.
>
> A friend noted his grandmother was born before the Wright
> Brothers first flew, but lived to see Tranquility Base.
>
> The times, they are a changen....

Yes, if you think back on it. Someone who grew up in a house with no
electricity, running water, indoor plumbing or any form of transportation
not dependent on a horse lived to see all of that, two world wars, the
atomic bomb, jets and space flight.

--
Pete
Re: A naked PDP11 and not much new since [message #400167 is a reply to message #400163] Thu, 17 September 2020 14:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: JimP

On Thu, 17 Sep 2020 11:29:49 -0700, Peter Flass
<peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> David Lesher <wb8foz@panix.com> wrote:
>> John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> writes:
>>
>>
>>> There was a stupendous amount of progress in computing from
>>> about 1945 to 1970. Since then you will have to look really
>>> hard to find anything that isn't just working out the details.
>>> Remember that Englebart's Mother of All Demos, introducing us
>>> to windows and mice, was in 1968.
>>
>> A friend noted his grandmother was born before the Wright
>> Brothers first flew, but lived to see Tranquility Base.
>>
>> The times, they are a changen....
>
> Yes, if you think back on it. Someone who grew up in a house with no
> electricity, running water, indoor plumbing or any form of transportation
> not dependent on a horse lived to see all of that, two world wars, the
> atomic bomb, jets and space flight.

My mother, when she was a kid, would bicycle down to the blacksmith's
shop to get the battery charged for the radio. It used phenolic
headphones. Worked at the USO during WW2. Her brother went off to
fight, he came back. She lived long enough to have her own web site,
saw Halley's Comet, and the lunar landings. She also saw me survive a
hurricane at sea in the US Navy, get promoted, and finally wind up
with a good paying job repairing computers. And lived to see the
beginnings of this century.

--
Jim
Re: A naked PDP11 [message #400177 is a reply to message #400143] Thu, 17 September 2020 23:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joy Beeson is currently offline  Joy Beeson
Messages: 159
Registered: June 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Thu, 17 Sep 2020 07:11:14 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot
<steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

> Take a recent cellphone, throw a handful of movies on it (include
> some Pixar animations) throw a 50" flatscreen smart TV in the back of your
> DeLorean and head off to 1985 and see if *they* think technology has made
> big leaps. Then tell them how much international bandwidth that phone
> represents in 2020 and watch them cry over their 2400bps modem that is so
> troublesome.

When I was in the market for my first sewing machine, my mother told
me that straight-stitch or zig-zag didn't matter -- the important
thing was *having* a machine.

I chose a zig-zag machine, and when I'd been using it forty or fifty
years, I had an epiphany:

I really can't get on without the zig-zag even though I do most of my
work on an old White Family Rotary treadle machine -- but the
difference between a zig-zag machine and a straight-stitch machine
isn't one tenth of one percent of the difference between a sewing
machine and a needle. And the tiny difference between straight stitch
and zig-zag is huge compared to the difference between a zig-zag
machine and the very latest and most-expensive computerized machine.

And it goes back all the way. The sewing machine isn't as big an
improvement over the steel needle as the steel needle was over poking
a hole in a splinter of bone. And that difference is small compared
to the idea of putting an eye in the needle instead of poking holes
with an awl and lacing hides together. Then compare that advance to
the idea of wearing clothes!

Ever since Og learned that you could twist fibers together to make
string and a later Og figured out how to make fire, it's been
refinements all the way.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/
Re: A naked PDP11 [message #400190 is a reply to message #400177] Fri, 18 September 2020 11:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: JimP

On Thu, 17 Sep 2020 23:32:20 -0400, Joy Beeson
<jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Sep 2020 07:11:14 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot
> <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>
>> Take a recent cellphone, throw a handful of movies on it (include
>> some Pixar animations) throw a 50" flatscreen smart TV in the back of your
>> DeLorean and head off to 1985 and see if *they* think technology has made
>> big leaps. Then tell them how much international bandwidth that phone
>> represents in 2020 and watch them cry over their 2400bps modem that is so
>> troublesome.
>
> When I was in the market for my first sewing machine, my mother told
> me that straight-stitch or zig-zag didn't matter -- the important
> thing was *having* a machine.
>
> I chose a zig-zag machine, and when I'd been using it forty or fifty
> years, I had an epiphany:
>
> I really can't get on without the zig-zag even though I do most of my
> work on an old White Family Rotary treadle machine -- but the
> difference between a zig-zag machine and a straight-stitch machine
> isn't one tenth of one percent of the difference between a sewing
> machine and a needle. And the tiny difference between straight stitch
> and zig-zag is huge compared to the difference between a zig-zag
> machine and the very latest and most-expensive computerized machine.

My great grandmother had a foot treadle machine. Grandpa modified it,
after she died, by adding a small motor. I tried using it when it was
food powered. My grandmother made clothes with it.

--
Jim
Re: A naked PDP11 [message #400194 is a reply to message #400190] Fri, 18 September 2020 12:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: maus

On 2020-09-18, JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Sep 2020 23:32:20 -0400, Joy Beeson
> <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
>> On Thu, 17 Sep 2020 07:11:14 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot
>> <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Take a recent cellphone, throw a handful of movies on it (include
>>> some Pixar animations) throw a 50" flatscreen smart TV in the back of your
>>> DeLorean and head off to 1985 and see if *they* think technology has made
>>> big leaps. Then tell them how much international bandwidth that phone
>>> represents in 2020 and watch them cry over their 2400bps modem that is so
>>> troublesome.
>>
>
> My great grandmother had a foot treadle machine. Grandpa modified it,
> after she died, by adding a small motor. I tried using it when it was
> food powered. My grandmother made clothes with it.
>
> As did my Mother, a real Singer, with which she made a lot of clothes
> during the war (II) when clothes were scarce. My sister had the machine now, amid
> rows as to who owns it. Treadle. I had a lathe that had been powered
> bu a treadle, then a small motor installed, which I used to do some
> work at home. A dangerous machine, One had to remember to keep hair
> short, shirts buttoned, and avoid brass.
>
OT: sawing machines Re: A naked PDP11 [message #400198 is a reply to message #400190] Fri, 18 September 2020 14:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
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Senior Member
JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Sep 2020 23:32:20 -0400, Joy Beeson
> <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
>> On Thu, 17 Sep 2020 07:11:14 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot
>> <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Take a recent cellphone, throw a handful of movies on it (include
>>> some Pixar animations) throw a 50" flatscreen smart TV in the back of your
>>> DeLorean and head off to 1985 and see if *they* think technology has made
>>> big leaps. Then tell them how much international bandwidth that phone
>>> represents in 2020 and watch them cry over their 2400bps modem that is so
>>> troublesome.
>>
>> When I was in the market for my first sewing machine, my mother told
>> me that straight-stitch or zig-zag didn't matter -- the important
>> thing was *having* a machine.
>>
>> I chose a zig-zag machine, and when I'd been using it forty or fifty
>> years, I had an epiphany:
>>
>> I really can't get on without the zig-zag even though I do most of my
>> work on an old White Family Rotary treadle machine -- but the
>> difference between a zig-zag machine and a straight-stitch machine
>> isn't one tenth of one percent of the difference between a sewing
>> machine and a needle. And the tiny difference between straight stitch
>> and zig-zag is huge compared to the difference between a zig-zag
>> machine and the very latest and most-expensive computerized machine.
>
> My great grandmother had a foot treadle machine. Grandpa modified it,
> after she died, by adding a small motor. I tried using it when it was
> food powered. My grandmother made clothes with it.
>

I assume the original post went to the wrong NG. I haven’t seen Joy here in
quite a while. My mother had a treadle machine, it seems like it was easier
to do some things slowly and incrementally .


--
Pete
Re: A naked PDP11 [message #400200 is a reply to message #400132] Fri, 18 September 2020 14:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hancock4 is currently offline  hancock4
Messages: 6746
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Wednesday, September 16, 2020 at 8:19:32 PM UTC-4, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
> Had a similar feeling about Back To The Future. It was set (and on the
> big screen for the first part) in 1985. Then they went back 30 years to
> 1955. 2015 marked the 15th anniversary. 1985 doesn't felt so different to
> 2015 regarding existing 1985 technology. But technology made a big leap
> between 1955 and 1985.

That aired recently. Yes, the world was very different
from 1955 to 1985. Radically so. Not just technology,
but social norms as well.

Sociologists wrote books about life in the past. In some
ways people were nicer more respectful of others. Certainly
less crime. But in other ways, it was kind of oppressive.
There was a clique of self-anointed moralists who rode
herd over everyone else. Going to church was mandatory
as were certain other behaviors. Failure to comply and
you'd lose your friends, even your job or business.

In some small towns, education was lousy at the high school
level. Most kids dropped out. Girls got pregnant early
and got married. Guys got a job at the factory or were
drafted.
Re: A naked PDP11 [message #400201 is a reply to message #400132] Fri, 18 September 2020 14:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hancock4 is currently offline  hancock4
Messages: 6746
Registered: December 2011
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Senior Member
On Wednesday, September 16, 2020 at 8:19:32 PM UTC-4, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:

> Had a similar feeling about Back To The Future. It was set (and on the
> big screen for the first part) in 1985. Then they went back 30 years to
> 1955. 2015 marked the 15th anniversary. 1985 doesn't felt so different to
> 2015 regarding existing 1985 technology. But technology made a big leap
> between 1955 and 1985.

In some ways technology and how it impacts has radically changed
from 1985 to now. Today, we all have a PC and Internet on our
desks at home, at work, and even as we walk along from smart
phones. We are very dependent on it now. In 1985, online
computing was rare and limited compared today.

Watch a 1985 drama on TV. Note you'll be asking yourself
why the character doesn't phone in for backup or check
something out. Very few recording CCTV cameras. He can't,
the capability didn't exist as we know it today.
Re: A naked PDP11 and not much new since [message #400202 is a reply to message #400163] Fri, 18 September 2020 14:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hancock4 is currently offline  hancock4
Messages: 6746
Registered: December 2011
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Senior Member
On Thursday, September 17, 2020 at 2:29:51 PM UTC-4, Peter Flass wrote:

> Yes, if you think back on it. Someone who grew up in a house with no
> electricity, running water, indoor plumbing or any form of transportation
> not dependent on a horse lived to see all of that, two world wars, the
> atomic bomb, jets and space flight.

yes, I think of Eleanor Roosevelt who not only was born way
back, but came of age in a totally 'manual' world. She
got to see it all come about, dying in the computer age.

They said she didn't like using the telephone, preferring
to communicate by letter.

For a short time NBC had old airings of Meet the Press On
Demand. Eleanor Roosevelt, Martin Luther King, Nixon, etc.
from the 1950s. Fascinating historical look. The
interviewers asked tough questions, too.
Re: A naked PDP11 [message #400203 is a reply to message #400177] Fri, 18 September 2020 14:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hancock4 is currently offline  hancock4
Messages: 6746
Registered: December 2011
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Senior Member
On Thursday, September 17, 2020 at 11:32:24 PM UTC-4, Joy Beeson wrote:

> When I was in the market for my first sewing machine, my mother told
> me that straight-stitch or zig-zag didn't matter -- the important
> thing was *having* a machine.

FWIW, Singer bought Friden which made office automation
products and some computers.
Re: OT: sawing machines Re: A naked PDP11 [message #400210 is a reply to message #400198] Fri, 18 September 2020 16:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: JimP

On Fri, 18 Sep 2020 11:22:42 -0700, Peter Flass
<peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 17 Sep 2020 23:32:20 -0400, Joy Beeson
>> <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 17 Sep 2020 07:11:14 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot
>>> <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Take a recent cellphone, throw a handful of movies on it (include
>>>> some Pixar animations) throw a 50" flatscreen smart TV in the back of your
>>>> DeLorean and head off to 1985 and see if *they* think technology has made
>>>> big leaps. Then tell them how much international bandwidth that phone
>>>> represents in 2020 and watch them cry over their 2400bps modem that is so
>>>> troublesome.
>>>
>>> When I was in the market for my first sewing machine, my mother told
>>> me that straight-stitch or zig-zag didn't matter -- the important
>>> thing was *having* a machine.
>>>
>>> I chose a zig-zag machine, and when I'd been using it forty or fifty
>>> years, I had an epiphany:
>>>
>>> I really can't get on without the zig-zag even though I do most of my
>>> work on an old White Family Rotary treadle machine -- but the
>>> difference between a zig-zag machine and a straight-stitch machine
>>> isn't one tenth of one percent of the difference between a sewing
>>> machine and a needle. And the tiny difference between straight stitch
>>> and zig-zag is huge compared to the difference between a zig-zag
>>> machine and the very latest and most-expensive computerized machine.
>>
>> My great grandmother had a foot treadle machine. Grandpa modified it,
>> after she died, by adding a small motor. I tried using it when it was
>> food powered. My grandmother made clothes with it.
>>
>
> I assume the original post went to the wrong NG. I havenÂ’t seen Joy here in
> quite a while. My mother had a treadle machine, it seems like it was easier
> to do some things slowly and incrementally .

Should have been foot powered, but yes, my grandmother mentioned it
was good for putting lace on women's collars. They felt a regular
sewing machine with motor wouldn't work right for lace.

--
Jim
Re: A naked PDP11 [message #400212 is a reply to message #400200] Fri, 18 September 2020 16:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: JimP

On Fri, 18 Sep 2020 11:39:09 -0700 (PDT), hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 16, 2020 at 8:19:32 PM UTC-4, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>> Had a similar feeling about Back To The Future. It was set (and on the
>> big screen for the first part) in 1985. Then they went back 30 years to
>> 1955. 2015 marked the 15th anniversary. 1985 doesn't felt so different to
>> 2015 regarding existing 1985 technology. But technology made a big leap
>> between 1955 and 1985.
>
> That aired recently. Yes, the world was very different
> from 1955 to 1985. Radically so. Not just technology,
> but social norms as well.
>
> Sociologists wrote books about life in the past. In some
> ways people were nicer more respectful of others. Certainly
> less crime. But in other ways, it was kind of oppressive.
> There was a clique of self-anointed moralists who rode
> herd over everyone else. Going to church was mandatory
> as were certain other behaviors. Failure to comply and
> you'd lose your friends, even your job or business.
>
> In some small towns, education was lousy at the high school
> level. Most kids dropped out. Girls got pregnant early
> and got married. Guys got a job at the factory or were
> drafted.

Well, there were still lynchings going on when I was a kid. And if you
lived on the poor side of town, which we did, you couldn't defend
yourself from the rich folks' kids who made fun of all us poor kids at
school.

My grandmother told me of several elderly women who gossipped about
everyone in town. Upset them, and they would lie and get you in
trouble. I found out years later, one was a relative.

--
Jim
Re: A naked PDP11 and not much new since [message #400218 is a reply to message #400202] Fri, 18 September 2020 17:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Fri, 18 Sep 2020 11:48:17 -0700 (PDT), hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:

> On Thursday, September 17, 2020 at 2:29:51 PM UTC-4, Peter Flass wrote:
>
>> Yes, if you think back on it. Someone who grew up in a house with no
>> electricity, running water, indoor plumbing or any form of transportation
>> not dependent on a horse lived to see all of that, two world wars, the
>> atomic bomb, jets and space flight.
>
> yes, I think of Eleanor Roosevelt who not only was born way
> back, but came of age in a totally 'manual' world. She
> got to see it all come about, dying in the computer age.
>
> They said she didn't like using the telephone, preferring
> to communicate by letter.

She _was_ an inveterate letter-writer. My mother had a couple from
her (now lost).

> For a short time NBC had old airings of Meet the Press On
> Demand. Eleanor Roosevelt, Martin Luther King, Nixon, etc.
> from the 1950s. Fascinating historical look. The
> interviewers asked tough questions, too.
Re: A naked PDP11 [message #400219 is a reply to message #400200] Fri, 18 September 2020 17:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Fri, 18 Sep 2020 11:39:09 -0700 (PDT), hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:

> On Wednesday, September 16, 2020 at 8:19:32 PM UTC-4, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>> Had a similar feeling about Back To The Future. It was set (and on the
>> big screen for the first part) in 1985. Then they went back 30 years to
>> 1955. 2015 marked the 15th anniversary. 1985 doesn't felt so different to
>> 2015 regarding existing 1985 technology. But technology made a big leap
>> between 1955 and 1985.
>
> That aired recently. Yes, the world was very different
> from 1955 to 1985. Radically so. Not just technology,
> but social norms as well.
>
> Sociologists wrote books about life in the past. In some
> ways people were nicer more respectful of others. Certainly
> less crime. But in other ways, it was kind of oppressive.
> There was a clique of self-anointed moralists who rode
> herd over everyone else.

Still are, only now church isn't necessarily involved.

> Going to church was mandatory
> as were certain other behaviors. Failure to comply and
> you'd lose your friends, even your job or business.

Still happens. Fellow I used to work for was upset because his wife
had gotten the people at church mad at him. I never understood why he
_cared_.

> In some small towns, education was lousy at the high school
> level. Most kids dropped out. Girls got pregnant early
> and got married. Guys got a job at the factory or were
> drafted.

Now girls get pregnant early and don't get married and guys sell
drugs.
Re: A naked PDP11 [message #400220 is a reply to message #400219] Fri, 18 September 2020 17:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Fri, 18 Sep 2020 17:12:31 -0400
J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:

> Now girls get pregnant early and don't get married and guys sell
> drugs.

One reason girls plan on getting pregnant early round here is to
get bumped up the council housing list and as a single parent they get
social welfare without being expected to be looking for work.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: A naked PDP11 [message #400223 is a reply to message #400219] Fri, 18 September 2020 19:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
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Senior Member
J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Sep 2020 11:39:09 -0700 (PDT), hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday, September 16, 2020 at 8:19:32 PM UTC-4, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>>> Had a similar feeling about Back To The Future. It was set (and on the
>>> big screen for the first part) in 1985. Then they went back 30 years to
>>> 1955. 2015 marked the 15th anniversary. 1985 doesn't felt so different to
>>> 2015 regarding existing 1985 technology. But technology made a big leap
>>> between 1955 and 1985.
>>
>> That aired recently. Yes, the world was very different
>> from 1955 to 1985. Radically so. Not just technology,
>> but social norms as well.
>>
>> Sociologists wrote books about life in the past. In some
>> ways people were nicer more respectful of others. Certainly
>> less crime. But in other ways, it was kind of oppressive.
>> There was a clique of self-anointed moralists who rode
>> herd over everyone else.
>
> Still are, only now church isn't necessarily involved.
>
>> Going to church was mandatory
>> as were certain other behaviors. Failure to comply and
>> you'd lose your friends, even your job or business.
>
> Still happens. Fellow I used to work for was upset because his wife
> had gotten the people at church mad at him. I never understood why he
> _cared_.
>
>> In some small towns, education was lousy at the high school
>> level. Most kids dropped out. Girls got pregnant early
>> and got married. Guys got a job at the factory or were
>> drafted.
>
> Now girls get pregnant early and don't get married and guys sell
> drugs.
>

No factories anymore, and no draft.

--
Pete
Re: A naked PDP11 [message #400233 is a reply to message #400190] Sat, 19 September 2020 01:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike Spencer is currently offline  Mike Spencer
Messages: 997
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> writes:

> My great grandmother had a foot treadle machine. Grandpa modified it,
> after she died, by adding a small motor. I tried using it when it was
> food powered. My grandmother made clothes with it.

In 1965, I lived on the back side of Beacon Hill in Boston. One
night, quite late, I was walking home and encountered a Singer treadle
machine put out on the sidewalk for the junk collector. I pushed it
two blocks home.

Beacon Hill sidewalks are brick and the machine has ca. 1-1/4"
diameter iron wheels so it was something of a chore. Happily, we
lived on the ground floor so it was only a modest struggle to get it
inside.

We still have it and it works fine.

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
Re: A naked PDP11 [message #400251 is a reply to message #400219] Sat, 19 September 2020 14:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hancock4 is currently offline  hancock4
Messages: 6746
Registered: December 2011
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Senior Member
On Friday, September 18, 2020 at 5:12:35 PM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:

> Now girls get pregnant early and don't get married and guys sell
> drugs.

And Hollywood brags about it. Well, maybe an actress can
afford to be a single mom, but it ain't so easy for
an everyday girl.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/31/entertainment/emma-roberts-pr egnant-baby-boy-intl-scli/index.html
Re: A naked PDP11 [message #400253 is a reply to message #400251] Sat, 19 September 2020 15:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: maus

On 2020-09-19, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
> On Friday, September 18, 2020 at 5:12:35 PM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> Now girls get pregnant early and don't get married and guys sell
>> drugs.
>
> And Hollywood brags about it. Well, maybe an actress can
> afford to be a single mom, but it ain't so easy for
> an everyday girl.a
>
>
Why I hated madonna.
>
> https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/31/entertainment/emma-roberts-pr egnant-baby-boy-intl-scli/index.html
>
I see girls locally that are third geneation 'buggy pushers'.
Whether it is the internet (porn and games), but a lot of young
men are not interested in getting married, and worldwide, there
a lot of them stil at home after 40. Maybe a splitting of the
sexes?... It seems to have started in Japan.
Re: A naked PDP11 [message #400255 is a reply to message #400251] Sat, 19 September 2020 15:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Sat, 19 Sep 2020 11:50:25 -0700 (PDT), hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:

> On Friday, September 18, 2020 at 5:12:35 PM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> Now girls get pregnant early and don't get married and guys sell
>> drugs.
>
> And Hollywood brags about it. Well, maybe an actress can
> afford to be a single mom, but it ain't so easy for
> an everyday girl.
>
> https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/31/entertainment/emma-roberts-pr egnant-baby-boy-intl-scli/index.html

My former boss is an unmarried mother. She had been married but
wasn't anymore when she got pregnant. I have the impression that one
marriage was more than she wanted in her life. FWIW, she was raised a
genuine Godless Communist, so we can't blame anything to do with an
American upbringing.
Re: A naked PDP11 [message #400282 is a reply to message #400251] Sun, 20 September 2020 11:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: JimP

On Sat, 19 Sep 2020 11:50:25 -0700 (PDT), hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> On Friday, September 18, 2020 at 5:12:35 PM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> Now girls get pregnant early and don't get married and guys sell
>> drugs.
>
> And Hollywood brags about it. Well, maybe an actress can
> afford to be a single mom, but it ain't so easy for
> an everyday girl.
>
> https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/31/entertainment/emma-roberts-pr egnant-baby-boy-intl-scli/index.html

They got pregnant in years past to. Rich kids just went off to 'visit
relatives' for 9 months, then came back. Poor kids were made fun of.

--
Jim
Re: A naked PDP11 [message #400401 is a reply to message #400089] Tue, 22 September 2020 13:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Robin Vowels is currently offline  Robin Vowels
Messages: 426
Registered: July 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Wednesday, September 16, 2020 at 10:11:29 PM UTC+10, gareth evans wrote:
> I may have mentioned before (briefly, in passing :-) ) that I
> cut my teeth on a naked PDP11 in assembler and machine code during
> a summer undergraduate internship in 1971. (45 minutes to load the
> assembler via the 10cps tape reader of the Teletype :-( )
>
> It is salutary to muse that this is now 49 years ago, and that
> 49 years previously it was 1922, before the days of regular
> radio broadcasting
..
I think you will find that regular radio broadcasting was already
in place by 1920.
..
> when the man-on-the-Clapham-Omnibus
> (John Doe to the Yanks) knew nothing of electronics*****, and
> certainly a decade and a half before electronic computers
> were even considered. For most people (here in Brit, at least)
> there were no telephones or motor cars.
>
> What technical advances were made during that previous 49 years!
>
> Perhaps even greater advances have been made in computing in the
> next 49 years up till now such that those of us who were extant
> in 1971 have now been described, somewhat unkindly, as dinosaurs.
>
> Not during that internship, but in subsequent employment in the
> same place, when the first Decwriter was delivered, the pallet
> upon which it was attached was not some
> conglomeration of roughly cut timbers but was a two sheets of
> high quality 3/4" thick plywood. The pallet was scrapped and was
> mde by me and the wife into our first bookcase which we still
> have to this day.
>
> I did have cause to panic on one occasion when the covers were off,
> and I dropped a screwdriver onto the wire-wrapped backplane of the
> DecTapes when power was applied. On another occasion, I was in the
> processor box with a small screwdriver to adjust the clock that
> drove the Teletype serial port.
>
> ***** I did read somewhere that the seminal background work
> for the Field Effect Transistor happened in about 1910.
>
> Is this post a wind-up? Only to help your day go like clockwork! :-)
Re: A naked PDP11 [message #400411 is a reply to message #400401] Tue, 22 September 2020 18:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 16, 2020 at 10:11:29 PM UTC+10, gareth evans wrote:
>> I may have mentioned before (briefly, in passing :-) ) that I
>> cut my teeth on a naked PDP11 in assembler and machine code during
>> a summer undergraduate internship in 1971. (45 minutes to load the
>> assembler via the 10cps tape reader of the Teletype :-( )
>>
>> It is salutary to muse that this is now 49 years ago, and that
>> 49 years previously it was 1922, before the days of regular
>> radio broadcasting
> .
> I think you will find that regular radio broadcasting was already
> in place by 1920.

Some places. I recall my father telling me that he made a crystal radio,
tuned with a cat’s whisker, to pick up broadcasts. Many years later I built
a similar one from a project kit.

--
Pete
Re: A naked PDP11 [message #400829 is a reply to message #400177] Mon, 05 October 2020 20:21 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: David Lesher

Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> writes:


> I chose a zig-zag machine, and when I'd been using it forty or fifty
> years, I had an epiphany:

> I really can't get on without the zig-zag even though I do most of my
> work on an old White Family Rotary treadle machine -- but the
> difference between a zig-zag machine and a straight-stitch machine
> isn't one tenth of one percent of the difference between a sewing
> machine and a needle.

FDR brought us REA, and power {and don't forget, phones...} to the
farms. It was a major victory over the tyranny of sundown. You could
read and do many other things after sunset.


--
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close..........................
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
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