Megalextoria
Retro computing and gaming, sci-fi books, tv and movies and other geeky stuff.

Home » Digital Archaeology » Computer Arcana » Computer Folklore » THUNK?
Show: Today's Messages :: Show Polls :: Message Navigator
E-mail to friend 
Switch to threaded view of this topic Create a new topic Submit Reply
THUNK? [message #397977] Sat, 15 August 2020 09:50 Go to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: gareth evans

In my older computing books, as I remember, the word
THUNK is used as an interface between two otherwise
incompatible programs (Definitely programs because
software was unheard of in them thar days!)

I wonder where the word THUNK originated? Is it
possibly a fun way to express the past tense of THINK,
as in, "I thunk of the solution"?
Re: THUNK? [message #397981 is a reply to message #397977] Sat, 15 August 2020 11:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
John Levine is currently offline  John Levine
Messages: 1405
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
In article <rh8p6i$v8c$1@dont-email.me>,
gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I wonder where the word THUNK originated? Is it
> possibly a fun way to express the past tense of THINK,
> as in, "I thunk of the solution"?

I am pretty sure it was first used to describe the little anonymous routines
that implement Algol 60 call by name arguments.

See this 1961 article in CACM:

http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/algol/ACM_ Algol_bulletin/1064045/frontmatter.pdf




--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
Re: THUNK? [message #397982 is a reply to message #397981] Sat, 15 August 2020 11:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: gareth evans

On 15/08/2020 16:06, John Levine wrote:
> In article <rh8p6i$v8c$1@dont-email.me>,
> gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> I wonder where the word THUNK originated? Is it
>> possibly a fun way to express the past tense of THINK,
>> as in, "I thunk of the solution"?
>
> I am pretty sure it was first used to describe the little anonymous routines
> that implement Algol 60 call by name arguments.
>
> See this 1961 article in CACM:
>
> http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/algol/ACM_ Algol_bulletin/1064045/frontmatter.pdf
>
>
>
>

OK, but how was the name derived, for it is such a strange word!?
Re: THUNK? [message #397986 is a reply to message #397982] Sat, 15 August 2020 12:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
John Levine is currently offline  John Levine
Messages: 1405
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
In article <rh9082$bsc$1@dont-email.me>,
gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> I am pretty sure it was first used to describe the little anonymous routines
>> that implement Algol 60 call by name arguments.
>>
>> See this 1961 article in CACM:
>>
>> http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/algol/ACM_ Algol_bulletin/1064045/frontmatter.pdf
>
> OK, but how was the name derived, for it is such a strange word!?

http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/T/thunk.html

Historical note: There are a couple of onomatopoeic myths
circulating about the origin of this term. The most common is that it
is the sound made by data hitting the stack; another holds that the
sound is that of the data hitting an accumulator. Yet another suggests
that it is the sound of the expression being unfrozen at
argument-evaluation time. In fact, according to the inventors, it was
coined after they realized (in the wee hours after hours of
discussion) that the type of an argument in Algol-60 could be figured
out in advance with a little compile-time thought, simplifying the
evaluation machinery. In other words, it had ‘already been thought
of’; thus it was christened a thunk, which is “the past tense of
‘think’ at two in the morning”.

--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
Re: THUNK? [message #397995 is a reply to message #397977] Sat, 15 August 2020 15:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike Spencer is currently offline  Mike Spencer
Messages: 997
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> writes:

> In my older computing books, as I remember, the word
> THUNK is used as an interface between two otherwise
> incompatible programs (Definitely programs because
> software was unheard of in them thar days!)
>
> I wonder where the word THUNK originated? Is it
> possibly a fun way to express the past tense of THINK,
> as in, "I thunk of the solution"?

Cira 1948:

"Who'da thunk it?" (My mother, possibly quoting some radio
personality or possibly recalling something heard in her very rural
Texas childhood, circa 1910.)

1958:

"I Have Thunk, So I Cannot Am!", Frederick Winsor in The Space Child's
Mother Goose.

Also from that source:

This is the Theory Jack built.
This is the Flaw
That lay in the Theory Jack built.
This is the Mummery
Hiding the Flaw
That lay in the Theory that Jack built.
This is the Summary
Based on the Mummery
Hiding the Flaw
That lay in the Theory that Jack built.
This is the Constant K
That saved the Summary
Based on the Mummery
Hiding the Flaw
That lay in the Theory that Jack built.
This is the Erudite Verbal Haze
Cloaking Constant K
That saved the Summary
Based on the Mummery
Hiding the Flaw
That lay in the Theory that Jack built.
This is the Turn of a Plausible Phrase
That thickened the Erudite Verbal Haze
Cloaking Constant K
That saved the Summary
Based on the Mummery
Hiding the Flaw
That lay in the Theory that Jack built.
This is the Chaotic Confusion and Bluff
That hung on the Turn of a Plausible Phrase
That thickened the Erudite Verbal Haze
Cloaking Constant K
That saved the Summary
Based on the Mummery
Hiding the Flaw
That lay in the Theory that Jack built.
This is the Cybernetics and Stuff
That covered Chaotic Confusion and Bluff
That hung on the Turn of a Plausible Phrase
That thickened the Erudite Verbal Haze
Cloaking Constant K
That saved the Summary
Based on the Mummery
Hiding the Flaw
That lay in the Theory that Jack built.
This is the button to Start the Machine
To make with the Cybernetics and Stuff
To cover Chaotic Confusion and Bluff
That hung on the Turn of a Plausible Phrase
That thickened the Erudite Verbal Haze
Cloaking Constant K
That saved the Summary
Based on the Mummery
Hiding the Flaw
That lay in the Theory that Jack built.
This is the Space Child with Brow Serene
Who Pushed the Button to Start the Machine
That made with the Cybernetics and Stuff
Without Confusion, exposing the Bluff
That hung on the Turn of a Plausible Phrase
And, shredding the Erudite Verbal Haze
Cloaking Constant K
Wrecked the Summary
Based on Mummery
Hiding the Flaw
And Demolished the Theory that Jack built.

(Parenthetically, the PoMo establishment in academe has gotten as far
as line 55. We'uns in a.f.c. with chops in "Cybernetics and Stuff"
should have a go at pushing the button. The world has changed since
Alan Sokal and "Transgressing...", even more since C.P. Snow's Two
Cultures but PoMo has shingled too far off onto the fog. I won't even
start on US politics.)


--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
Re:THUNK? [message #398015 is a reply to message #397977] Sat, 15 August 2020 21:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sarr.blumson is currently offline  sarr.blumson
Messages: 34
Registered: August 2012
Karma: 0
Member
gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> Wrote in message:
> In my older computing books, as I remember, the wordTHUNK is used as an interface between two otherwiseincompatible programs (Definitely programs becausesoftware was unheard of in them thar days!)I wonder where the word THUNK originated? Is itpossibly a fun way to express the past tense of THINK,as in, "I thunk of the solution"?

Thunks: a way of compiling procedure statements with some comments
on procedure declarations, PZ Ingerman, CACM, Jan
1961


--


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/
Re: THUNK? [message #398016 is a reply to message #397995] Sat, 15 August 2020 22:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
John Levine is currently offline  John Levine
Messages: 1405
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
In article <87wo1z4ra9.fsf@bogus.nodomain.nowhere>,
Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>> I wonder where the word THUNK originated? Is it
>> possibly a fun way to express the past tense of THINK,
>> as in, "I thunk of the solution"?
>
> Cira 1948:
>
> "Who'da thunk it?" (My mother, possibly quoting some radio
> personality or possibly recalling something heard in her very rural
> Texas childhood, circa 1910.)

It was a catch phrase on Edgar Bergen's popular US radio show in the
1940s and 1950s so the authors of the 1961 CACM paper would have been
familiar with it.

R's,
John


--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
Re: THUNK? [message #398028 is a reply to message #398015] Sat, 15 August 2020 23:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 21:19:21 -0400 (EDT), Sarr Blumson
<sarr.blumson@alum.dartmouth.org> wrote:

> gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> Wrote in message:
>> In my older computing books, as I remember, the wordTHUNK is used as an interface between two otherwiseincompatible programs (Definitely programs becausesoftware was unheard of in them thar days!)I wonder where the word THUNK originated? Is itpossibly a fun way to express the past tense of THINK,as in, "I thunk of the solution"?
>
> Thunks: a way of compiling procedure statements with some comments
> on procedure declarations, PZ Ingerman, CACM, Jan
> 1961

English she is a peculiar language.

Why is it "sink, sank, sunk" but not "think, thank, thunk"?
Re: THUNK? [message #398031 is a reply to message #398028] Sun, 16 August 2020 03:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: maus

On 2020-08-16, J Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 21:19:21 -0400 (EDT), Sarr Blumson
> <sarr.blumson@alum.dartmouth.org> wrote:
>
>> gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> Wrote in message:
>>> In my older computing books, as I remember, the wordTHUNK is used as an interface between two otherwiseincompatible programs (Definitely programs becausesoftware was unheard of in them thar days!)I wonder where the word THUNK originated? Is itpossibly a fun way to express the past tense of THINK,as in, "I thunk of the solution"?
>>
>> Thunks: a way of compiling procedure statements with some comments
>> on procedure declarations, PZ Ingerman, CACM, Jan
>> 1961
>
> English she is a peculiar language.
>
> Why is it "sink, sank, sunk" but not "think, thank, thunk"?
>
>
"English as she is spoken", famous book by a portugese man who didn't
speak English, but French, and had access to a French-English dictionary
Re: THUNK? [message #398035 is a reply to message #398031] Sun, 16 August 2020 07:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: gareth evans

On 16/08/2020 08:34, maus wrote:
> On 2020-08-16, J Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 21:19:21 -0400 (EDT), Sarr Blumson
>> <sarr.blumson@alum.dartmouth.org> wrote:
>>
>>> gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> Wrote in message:
>>>> In my older computing books, as I remember, the wordTHUNK is used as an interface between two otherwiseincompatible programs (Definitely programs becausesoftware was unheard of in them thar days!)I wonder where the word THUNK originated? Is itpossibly a fun way to express the past tense of THINK,as in, "I thunk of the solution"?
>>>
>>> Thunks: a way of compiling procedure statements with some comments
>>> on procedure declarations, PZ Ingerman, CACM, Jan
>>> 1961
>>
>> English she is a peculiar language.
>>
>> Why is it "sink, sank, sunk" but not "think, thank, thunk"?
>>
>>
> "English as she is spoken", famous book by a portugese man who didn't
> speak English, but French, and had access to a French-English dictionary
>

For Monty Python fans ...

My hovercraft is full of eels
Re: THUNK? [message #398045 is a reply to message #398016] Sun, 16 August 2020 15:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike Spencer is currently offline  Mike Spencer
Messages: 997
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> writes:

> In article <87wo1z4ra9.fsf@bogus.nodomain.nowhere>,
> Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>
>>> I wonder where the word THUNK originated? Is it
>>> possibly a fun way to express the past tense of THINK,
>>> as in, "I thunk of the solution"?
>>
>> Cira 1948:
>>
>> "Who'da thunk it?" (My mother, possibly quoting some radio
>> personality or possibly recalling something heard in her very rural
>> Texas childhood, circa 1910.)
>
> It was a catch phrase on Edgar Bergen's popular US radio show in the
> 1940s and 1950s so the authors of the 1961 CACM paper would have been
> familiar with it.

That would be about right. My mother liked Bergen. I recall
listening to that show circa 1950 although not the "thunk it" line.

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
Re: THUNK? [message #398046 is a reply to message #398045] Sun, 16 August 2020 16:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: JimP

On 16 Aug 2020 16:41:38 -0300, Mike Spencer
<mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>
> John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> writes:
>
>> In article <87wo1z4ra9.fsf@bogus.nodomain.nowhere>,
>> Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>>
>>>> I wonder where the word THUNK originated? Is it
>>>> possibly a fun way to express the past tense of THINK,
>>>> as in, "I thunk of the solution"?
>>>
>>> Cira 1948:
>>>
>>> "Who'da thunk it?" (My mother, possibly quoting some radio
>>> personality or possibly recalling something heard in her very rural
>>> Texas childhood, circa 1910.)
>>
>> It was a catch phrase on Edgar Bergen's popular US radio show in the
>> 1940s and 1950s so the authors of the 1961 CACM paper would have been
>> familiar with it.
>
> That would be about right. My mother liked Bergen. I recall
> listening to that show circa 1950 although not the "thunk it" line.

And he wore a suit and tie, for a radio broadcast. In one movie, he
and Charlie wore tuxedos.

--
Jim
Re: THUNK? [message #398062 is a reply to message #397981] Mon, 17 August 2020 00:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Louis Krupp is currently offline  Louis Krupp
Messages: 92
Registered: August 2012
Karma: 0
Member
On 8/15/2020 9:06 AM, John Levine wrote:
> In article <rh8p6i$v8c$1@dont-email.me>,
> gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> I wonder where the word THUNK originated? Is it
>> possibly a fun way to express the past tense of THINK,
>> as in, "I thunk of the solution"?
>
> I am pretty sure it was first used to describe the little anonymous routines
> that implement Algol 60 call by name arguments.
>
> See this 1961 article in CACM:
>
> http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/algol/ACM_ Algol_bulletin/1064045/frontmatter.pdf
>

In case it hasn't been mentioned, and for what it's worth, a thunk is
also known as an "accidental entry." A search for both terms yields
several links and some context.

Louis
Re: THUNK? [message #398072 is a reply to message #398028] Mon, 17 August 2020 04:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 23:59:06 -0400
J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:

> English she is a peculiar language.

Chaotic even.

> Why is it "sink, sank, sunk" but not "think, thank, thunk"?

A few examples can be found here, anyone care to attempt reading
aloud ? http://ncf.idallen.com/english.html

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: THUNK? [message #398090 is a reply to message #398072] Mon, 17 August 2020 12:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 2020-08-17, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

> On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 23:59:06 -0400
> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> English she is a peculiar language.
>
> Chaotic even.
>
>> Why is it "sink, sank, sunk" but not "think, thank, thunk"?
>
> A few examples can be found here, anyone care to attempt reading
> aloud ? http://ncf.idallen.com/english.html

I slank off and dug up this one:

The wind was rough,
And cold and blough.
She kept her hands inside her mough.

It chilled her through.
Her nose turned blough.
And still the squall the faster flough.

And yet although
There was no snough,
The weather was a cruel fough.

It made her cough.
(Please do not scough.)
She coughed until her hat blew ough.

-- Bennett Cerf

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.
Re: THUNK? [message #398095 is a reply to message #398062] Mon, 17 August 2020 13:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Louis Krupp <lkrupp@invalid.pssw.com.invalid> wrote:
> On 8/15/2020 9:06 AM, John Levine wrote:
>> In article <rh8p6i$v8c$1@dont-email.me>,
>> gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> I wonder where the word THUNK originated? Is it
>>> possibly a fun way to express the past tense of THINK,
>>> as in, "I thunk of the solution"?
>>
>> I am pretty sure it was first used to describe the little anonymous routines
>> that implement Algol 60 call by name arguments.
>>
>> See this 1961 article in CACM:
>>
>> http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/algol/ACM_ Algol_bulletin/1064045/frontmatter.pdf
>>
>
> In case it hasn't been mentioned, and for what it's worth, a thunk is
> also known as an "accidental entry." A search for both terms yields
> several links and some context.

First time I’ve heard that term.

--
Pete
Re: THUNK? [message #398100 is a reply to message #398062] Mon, 17 August 2020 14:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
John Levine is currently offline  John Levine
Messages: 1405
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
In article <YIn_G.85279$qo5.78300@fx23.iad>,
Louis Krupp <lkrupp@invalid.pssw.com.invalid> wrote:
> In case it hasn't been mentioned, and for what it's worth, a thunk is
> also known as an "accidental entry." A search for both terms yields
> several links and some context.

I have never ever heard that term, and my thesis advisor was a member
of the Algol 60 committee.

When I do a web search for "accidental entry" or "accidental entry
thunk" I find nothing. Where have you seen it used?

--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
Re: THUNK? [message #398101 is a reply to message #398090] Mon, 17 August 2020 14:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Thomas Koenig

Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> schrieb:

> I slank off and dug up this one:
>
> The wind was rough,
> And cold and blough.

[...]

And we all what "ughoti" means, right?

Vg zrnaf "svfu". "htu" nf va "gbhtu", "b" nf va "jbzra", naq "gv"
nf va "angvba".
Re: THUNK? [message #398109 is a reply to message #398100] Mon, 17 August 2020 15:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
scott is currently offline  scott
Messages: 4237
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> writes:
> In article <YIn_G.85279$qo5.78300@fx23.iad>,
> Louis Krupp <lkrupp@invalid.pssw.com.invalid> wrote:
>> In case it hasn't been mentioned, and for what it's worth, a thunk is
>> also known as an "accidental entry." A search for both terms yields
>> several links and some context.
>
> I have never ever heard that term, and my thesis advisor was a member
> of the Algol 60 committee.

The term has been used by unix shared objects since SVR4/Solaris for
the code that indirectly calls the position independent library function
via the procedure linkage table (PLT).

It's still used by glibc.
Re: THUNK? [message #398112 is a reply to message #398100] Mon, 17 August 2020 15:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Louis Krupp is currently offline  Louis Krupp
Messages: 92
Registered: August 2012
Karma: 0
Member
On 8/17/2020 12:03 PM, John Levine wrote:
> In article <YIn_G.85279$qo5.78300@fx23.iad>,
> Louis Krupp <lkrupp@invalid.pssw.com.invalid> wrote:
>> In case it hasn't been mentioned, and for what it's worth, a thunk is
>> also known as an "accidental entry." A search for both terms yields
>> several links and some context.
>
> I have never ever heard that term, and my thesis advisor was a member
> of the Algol 60 committee.
>
> When I do a web search for "accidental entry" or "accidental entry
> thunk" I find nothing. Where have you seen it used?
>

I did a search for "thunk" and "accidental entry." I got these, among
other links:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3ABurroughs_large_systems

https://public.support.unisys.com/framework/publicterms.aspx ?returnurl=%2faseries%2fdocs%2fClearPath-MCP-18.0%2f86000098 -516%2fsection-000026582.html

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s& amp;source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjRodL6_aLrAhWbXc0KHccS BRAQFjACegQICRAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fresearch.tue.nl%2Ffil es%2F46775892%2F349706-1.pdf&usg=AOvVaw0MJEY0IWKlOu9da3y AFN5e
(You'll have to search for "accidental.")

Louis
Re: THUNK? [message #398114 is a reply to message #398109] Mon, 17 August 2020 16:20 Go to previous message
John Levine is currently offline  John Levine
Messages: 1405
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
In article <UXA_G.85423$qo5.70155@fx23.iad>,
Scott Lurndal <slp53@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>> In case it hasn't been mentioned, and for what it's worth, a thunk is
>>> also known as an "accidental entry." A search for both terms yields
>>> several links and some context.
>>
>> I have never ever heard that term, and my thesis advisor was a member
>> of the Algol 60 committee.
>
> The term has been used by unix shared objects since SVR4/Solaris for
> the code that indirectly calls the position independent library function
> via the procedure linkage table (PLT).
>
> It's still used by glibc.

In case it wasn't clear, I never heard of accidental entry.

Thunk was originally the anonymous routines to implement call-by-name
but you're right it's been used for other stuff like glue between almost
but not quite compatible shared libraries.



--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
  Switch to threaded view of this topic Create a new topic Submit Reply
Previous Topic: Re: The ideal Language, or Is the Eternal September over
Next Topic: Next FCUG meeting - Sunday, August 16 (cancelled)
Goto Forum:
  

-=] Back to Top [=-
[ Syndicate this forum (XML) ] [ RSS ] [ PDF ]

Current Time: Thu Mar 28 16:58:52 EDT 2024

Total time taken to generate the page: 0.04337 seconds