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| Re: Is the Eternal September over [message #397889 is a reply to message #397748] |
Fri, 14 August 2020 07:22   |
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Originally posted by: Kerr-Mudd,John
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 13:40:13 GMT, gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> On 10/08/2020 16:33, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> Like the guy(?) whose sole reason for existence is to post replies to
>> every one of Rod Speeds posts.
>
> Peeler?
>
> In his futile efforts to proscribe what he thinks to be SPAM,
> he has become the dominant SPAMMER.
It's the same idiot using a sock, pshurely.
>
> BTW, Should you get an email about Pork Luncheon Meat,
> then ignore it, for it is SPAM.
>
>
>
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
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| Re: The ideal Language, or Is the Eternal September over [message #397905 is a reply to message #397854] |
Fri, 14 August 2020 10:13 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
> John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> writes:
>
>> In article <rh3ndi$87o$1@dont-email.me>,
>> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> If your argument is for standardization, I trust you'd be ok with the
>>>> common language being Mandarin Chinese? It's the native language of
>>>> 12% of the world's population (17% if you include all the various
>>>> dialects), as opposed to 5% for English.
>>>>
>>>> Me, I'm too old to learn Chinese, so everybody should learn the
>>>> language I already know.
>>>
>>> I don't think that's going to happen.
>>> First I'd want to see an phonetic alphabet come into common usage,
>>> but if that's what it takes to lift the curse, so be it.
>>
>> Don't be ridiculous. One of the great advantages of written Chinese is
>> that it is a common language for over a billion people with very
>> different spoken languages (as different as French and Portuguese, I
>> hear.) A large part of it is also common with Japanese kanji.
>>
>> Anyway, there is a common phonetic alphabet for Mandarin called
>> pinyin. That's how you type Chinese into your computer or phone.
>
> Well, I usually try pretty hard not to be ridiculous but things happen.
>
> I know about Pinyin.
> I just don't think the pictographs have any place in our future common
> written language.
>
Except we seem to be moving that way, with stupid icons and emojis
--
Pete
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| Re: Is the Eternal September over [message #397906 is a reply to message #397554] |
Fri, 14 August 2020 10:13 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> wrote:
> On 8/13/2020 6:08 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Thu, 13 Aug 2020 18:12:26 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 2020-08-12, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > Hmm, watched "Does Farting Make You Weigh Less?".
>>>> > I did not use Google to check the density or air vs methane.
>>>> > If I had I would have guessed no, instead I guessed yes.
>>>> > I figured they were close.
>>>>
>>>> Who needs Google (or even DuckDuckGo, if you'd rather not
>>>> put up with the surveillance)? Methane (CH4) has a molecular
>>>> weight of 16, while air, being a mixture of roughly 80% N2
>>>> (molecular weight 28) and 20% O2 (molecular weight 32),
>>>> averages out to about 29. Methane is considerably lighter.
>>>
>>> Without knowing any of that, I guess I could have gotten there
>>> by knowing that Methane is CH4. The Carbon is in the same
>>> neighborhood as Oxygen and Nitrogen but the Hydrogen is
>>> the lightest element by far.
>>>
>>> As for Google surveillance, please Google remember everything
>>> I type. I love when I type the letter Y and it knows I want
>>> YouTube. I've got nothing to hide.
>>>
>>> I normally run Firefox with an ad-blocker. I had no idea that YouTube shows
>>> ads. To help these companies out during the shut down,
>>> when I had to switch to Google Chrome
>>> I didn't install an ad blocker. It's funny, I bought some rubber
>>> gym flooring. Now everywhere I go I see rubber flooring ads.
>>> I already bought the stuff, do they really think I'm going to buy more?
>>
>> The software that makes the determination of what kind of ad to
>> present appears to be an example of the "artificial stupidity" branch
>> of AI. How many washing machines do they think someone buys in a
>> lifetime?
>>
>>> So, now Google knows I'm also interested in farts and density.
>>> Doesn't matter to me.
>
> Ah, but at the moment, the question is "who's intereted in washing
> machines?" They don't know that you've bought one. Once they've gotrt
> better data/surveillance, that'll be fixed.
>
Even at that level it’s stupid. If I research washing machines in January,
by June I’ve either bought one or decided I’m not interested, so,it’s
stupid to,keep showing me the ads. I’ve seen this a few times where six
months later I get an ad for some durable item with a long lifespan.
--
Pete
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| Re: Is the Eternal September over [message #397907 is a reply to message #397881] |
Fri, 14 August 2020 10:13 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
> usenet@only.tnx (Questor) writes:
>
>> On Thu, 13 Aug 2020 10:46:54 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> writes:
>>>> On 2020-08-13, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > 3 days later, and the only reason you can come up with that it's a
>>>> > blessing is that you like different languages? I'm curious, why
>>>> > do you like not being able to communicate with others? Or do you just
>>>> > like the intellectual challenge of being able to learn the few languages
>>>> > that you know?
>>>>
>>>> Are there drawbacks to the wide variety of languages found in the world
>>>> today? Certainly.
>>>>
>>>> However, a language is part of the culture using it, and reflects that
>>>> culture in various ways. Removing a language loses us this cultural
>>>> signature, essentially destroying information. I think that would be
>>>> unfortunate.
>>>>
>>>> The present order of things, with English as the lingua franca (amusing,
>>>> since that means 'French language'), appears to work tolerably. Younger
>>>> people seem to have a decent command of English in lots of different
>>>> places.
>>>
>>> Sorry, but I believe that "diversity" argument is weak
>>> and counter productive.
>>>
>>> Years ago, my employer did one of those diversity training
>>> things. The speaker went on at length about the beauty of
>>> jive talk. Showing how 3 words could express a multitude of
>>> ideas depending on the inflection. I think it was "she be gone".
>>> Seemed like a bunch of nonsense to me.
>>> Speaking clearly and saying what you mean is the way to go.
>>>
>>> If your language has a unique way of expressing an idea,
>>> incorporate it into English (as we've done so often before).
>>> There's no reason for anything of value to be lost.
>>
>> I'm guessing you are not a big fan of poetry.
>
> Got that right.
>
> But I did like:
>
> Once I pondered weak and weary
> over many a quaint and forgotten lore...
> Quoth the raven nevermore.
>
> Hey, just looked it up, close.
>
>
>> As far as tone (inflection), there are many tonal languages, particularly in
>> Asia. But the same phenomena exists in English. Consider the following dialog:
>>
>> A: "I think we should check the foobar valve on the gizmo."
>> B: "Right."
>>
>> Depending on their tone, B's response might mean ready assent, questioning
>> hesitation, or even a sarcastic denial.
>
> True, but from what you wrote above it's completely impossible to tell.
> It's fun to be sarcastic in speech but the transcripts leave something
> to be desired.
>
>> And either you haven't heard of, or don't believe in the Whorfian Hypothesis:
>> put simply, the idea that language shapes thought. We see some evidence of that
>> in the many terms that English borrows for different concepts. A couple of
>> examples: schadenfreude, zeitgeist. Yes, they can be explained in a few words,
>> but its not same has having the concept encapsulated in a single word. And how
>> many times has it been said of a foreign word or phrase, "there's not an exact
>> translation." Puns, double entendres, and other word play are usually specific
>> to a language and don't survive when expressed in another. So yes, those
>> associations and humor would be lost, as well as a potentially different
>> weltanshauung and way of thinking.
>
> Somewhere along the line I said, if your language has unique
> ways of expressing things, that can be easily incorporated into English.
>
>> And what language should be the one language? Mandarin has by far the most
>> native speakers. Spanish is second, and is more widespread. English is third,
>> but Hindi has almost as many. Even outside of the French colonies, the French
>> language was long considered the language of diplomacy, and being fluent in it
>> was the mark of education and culture. Or perhaps you want to go in another
>> direction and pick a language spoken by only a small number of people. That
>> way, just about everybody is on equal footing in having to learn a new and
>> unfamilar language. And then there are the ad hoc "universal" languages.
>> Esperanto, anyone?
>>
>> English would be a poor choice. It's weakly inflected, and has many spelling
>> irregularities. It is known to be a difficult language for non-native speakers
>> to master. And without language mastery, one can't express unique and complex
>> ideas.
>
> Oh, sure we're all going to start using Esperanto.
> Didn't that crash and burn...yep, proposed in 1887.
>
> Hopefully we'll conquer this curse.
> I think it's clear English will win out, but I just want the curse to go
> away. If there's a better way to reach that end, so be it.
>
>
It looks like English right now, but I’d like to see the language cleaned
up with some of the crazy spellings and partial anachronistic verb
declensions removed. I’m seeing this now, a bit. The past tense of “plead”
is “pled,” but I’m seeing “pleaded” a lot more now, and similar.
Personally, I always use “thru” instead of “through.”
--
Pete
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| Re: Is the Eternal September over [message #397908 is a reply to message #397885] |
Fri, 14 August 2020 10:13 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 06:14:19 -0400
> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I think it's clear English will win out
>
> It looks that way today, but not so long ago French was the lingua
> franca, at another time many budding scientists were advised to learn German
> in order to keep up with their field. We may yet wind up all speaking Hindi.
>
I often think we should go back to Latin. We lost a lot when scientists,
etc. no longer shared a common language.
--
Pete
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| Re: Is the Eternal September over [message #397911 is a reply to message #397841] |
Fri, 14 August 2020 11:06 |
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Originally posted by: JimP
On Thu, 13 Aug 2020 17:58:13 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>
>> On 2020-08-13, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Sorry, but I believe that "diversity" argument is weak
>>> and counter productive.
>>
>> But it's also Politically Correct, so it's gaining a lot of
>> traction, even in places where it's demonstrably harmful.
>>
>>> Years ago, my employer did one of those diversity training
>>> things. The speaker went on at length about the beauty of
>>> jive talk. Showing how 3 words could express a multitude of
>>> ideas depending on the inflection. I think it was "she be gone".
>>> Seemed like a bunch of nonsense to me.
>>
>> I think I heard something a while back about people trying to
>> get "Ebonics" established as a valid dialect. Feh.
>
> Yeah, I remember that. Ebonics is just people playing with the
> language. IMHO, it might be fun but it's not productive.
> It reduces instead of improves communication.
>
> It's sort of like the way people in India pronounce English.
> It sounds to me like they're trying to "sing" the language.
I have heard them. Its more like they are pronouncing British English
like they pronounce their first language. The prominent syllable
shifts from what we are used to.
--
Jim
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| Re: Is the Eternal September over [message #397912 is a reply to message #397844] |
Fri, 14 August 2020 11:08 |
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Originally posted by: JimP
On Thu, 13 Aug 2020 18:12:26 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>
>> On 2020-08-12, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hmm, watched "Does Farting Make You Weigh Less?".
>>> I did not use Google to check the density or air vs methane.
>>> If I had I would have guessed no, instead I guessed yes.
>>> I figured they were close.
>>
>> Who needs Google (or even DuckDuckGo, if you'd rather not
>> put up with the surveillance)? Methane (CH4) has a molecular
>> weight of 16, while air, being a mixture of roughly 80% N2
>> (molecular weight 28) and 20% O2 (molecular weight 32),
>> averages out to about 29. Methane is considerably lighter.
>
> Without knowing any of that, I guess I could have gotten there
> by knowing that Methane is CH4. The Carbon is in the same
> neighborhood as Oxygen and Nitrogen but the Hydrogen is
> the lightest element by far.
>
> As for Google surveillance, please Google remember everything
> I type. I love when I type the letter Y and it knows I want
> YouTube. I've got nothing to hide.
>
> I normally run Firefox with an ad-blocker. I had no idea that YouTube shows
> ads. To help these companies out during the shut down,
> when I had to switch to Google Chrome
> I didn't install an ad blocker. It's funny, I bought some rubber
> gym flooring. Now everywhere I go I see rubber flooring ads.
> I already bought the stuff, do they really think I'm going to buy more?
>
> So, now Google knows I'm also interested in farts and density.
> Doesn't matter to me.
Its like the Tivo, you watch something out of curiosity, and the Tivo
starts downloading more of the same.
Thats from seeing someone else talk about it, never had a Tivo.
--
Jim
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| Re: Is the Eternal September over [message #397913 is a reply to message #397908] |
Fri, 14 August 2020 11:12 |
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Originally posted by: gareth evans
On 14/08/2020 15:13, Peter Flass wrote:
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>> On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 06:14:19 -0400
>> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I think it's clear English will win out
>>
>> It looks that way today, but not so long ago French was the lingua
>> franca, at another time many budding scientists were advised to learn German
>> in order to keep up with their field. We may yet wind up all speaking Hindi.
>>
>
> I often think we should go back to Latin. We lost a lot when scientists,
> etc. no longer shared a common language.
>
Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum videtur?
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| Re: Is the Eternal September over [message #397923 is a reply to message #397907] |
Fri, 14 August 2020 13:43 |
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Originally posted by: J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 07:13:23 -0700, Peter Flass
<peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>> usenet@only.tnx (Questor) writes:
>>
>>> On Thu, 13 Aug 2020 10:46:54 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> writes:
>>>> > On 2020-08-13, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> 3 days later, and the only reason you can come up with that it's a
>>>> >> blessing is that you like different languages? I'm curious, why
>>>> >> do you like not being able to communicate with others? Or do you just
>>>> >> like the intellectual challenge of being able to learn the few languages
>>>> >> that you know?
>>>> >
>>>> > Are there drawbacks to the wide variety of languages found in the world
>>>> > today? Certainly.
>>>> >
>>>> > However, a language is part of the culture using it, and reflects that
>>>> > culture in various ways. Removing a language loses us this cultural
>>>> > signature, essentially destroying information. I think that would be
>>>> > unfortunate.
>>>> >
>>>> > The present order of things, with English as the lingua franca (amusing,
>>>> > since that means 'French language'), appears to work tolerably. Younger
>>>> > people seem to have a decent command of English in lots of different
>>>> > places.
>>>>
>>>> Sorry, but I believe that "diversity" argument is weak
>>>> and counter productive.
>>>>
>>>> Years ago, my employer did one of those diversity training
>>>> things. The speaker went on at length about the beauty of
>>>> jive talk. Showing how 3 words could express a multitude of
>>>> ideas depending on the inflection. I think it was "she be gone".
>>>> Seemed like a bunch of nonsense to me.
>>>> Speaking clearly and saying what you mean is the way to go.
>>>>
>>>> If your language has a unique way of expressing an idea,
>>>> incorporate it into English (as we've done so often before).
>>>> There's no reason for anything of value to be lost.
>>>
>>> I'm guessing you are not a big fan of poetry.
>>
>> Got that right.
>>
>> But I did like:
>>
>> Once I pondered weak and weary
>> over many a quaint and forgotten lore...
>> Quoth the raven nevermore.
>>
>> Hey, just looked it up, close.
>>
>>
>>> As far as tone (inflection), there are many tonal languages, particularly in
>>> Asia. But the same phenomena exists in English. Consider the following dialog:
>>>
>>> A: "I think we should check the foobar valve on the gizmo."
>>> B: "Right."
>>>
>>> Depending on their tone, B's response might mean ready assent, questioning
>>> hesitation, or even a sarcastic denial.
>>
>> True, but from what you wrote above it's completely impossible to tell.
>> It's fun to be sarcastic in speech but the transcripts leave something
>> to be desired.
>>
>>> And either you haven't heard of, or don't believe in the Whorfian Hypothesis:
>>> put simply, the idea that language shapes thought. We see some evidence of that
>>> in the many terms that English borrows for different concepts. A couple of
>>> examples: schadenfreude, zeitgeist. Yes, they can be explained in a few words,
>>> but its not same has having the concept encapsulated in a single word. And how
>>> many times has it been said of a foreign word or phrase, "there's not an exact
>>> translation." Puns, double entendres, and other word play are usually specific
>>> to a language and don't survive when expressed in another. So yes, those
>>> associations and humor would be lost, as well as a potentially different
>>> weltanshauung and way of thinking.
>>
>> Somewhere along the line I said, if your language has unique
>> ways of expressing things, that can be easily incorporated into English.
>>
>>> And what language should be the one language? Mandarin has by far the most
>>> native speakers. Spanish is second, and is more widespread. English is third,
>>> but Hindi has almost as many. Even outside of the French colonies, the French
>>> language was long considered the language of diplomacy, and being fluent in it
>>> was the mark of education and culture. Or perhaps you want to go in another
>>> direction and pick a language spoken by only a small number of people. That
>>> way, just about everybody is on equal footing in having to learn a new and
>>> unfamilar language. And then there are the ad hoc "universal" languages.
>>> Esperanto, anyone?
>>>
>>> English would be a poor choice. It's weakly inflected, and has many spelling
>>> irregularities. It is known to be a difficult language for non-native speakers
>>> to master. And without language mastery, one can't express unique and complex
>>> ideas.
>>
>> Oh, sure we're all going to start using Esperanto.
>> Didn't that crash and burn...yep, proposed in 1887.
>>
>> Hopefully we'll conquer this curse.
>> I think it's clear English will win out, but I just want the curse to go
>> away. If there's a better way to reach that end, so be it.
>>
>>
>
> It looks like English right now, but I’d like to see the language cleaned
> up with some of the crazy spellings and partial anachronistic verb
> declensions removed. I’m seeing this now, a bit. The past tense of “plead”
> is “pled,” but I’m seeing “pleaded” a lot more now, and similar.
> Personally, I always use “thru” instead of “through.”
A while back you could tell a nerd by the plural of mouse. If he was
a computer guy he'd call them "mouses", if he wasn't he'd call them
"mice". But "mice" seems to have won that round.
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| Re: Is the Eternal September over [message #397925 is a reply to message #397906] |
Fri, 14 August 2020 13:44 |
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Originally posted by: J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 07:13:23 -0700, Peter Flass
<peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> wrote:
>> On 8/13/2020 6:08 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> On Thu, 13 Aug 2020 18:12:26 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>>>>
>>>> > On 2020-08-12, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> Hmm, watched "Does Farting Make You Weigh Less?".
>>>> >> I did not use Google to check the density or air vs methane.
>>>> >> If I had I would have guessed no, instead I guessed yes.
>>>> >> I figured they were close.
>>>> >
>>>> > Who needs Google (or even DuckDuckGo, if you'd rather not
>>>> > put up with the surveillance)? Methane (CH4) has a molecular
>>>> > weight of 16, while air, being a mixture of roughly 80% N2
>>>> > (molecular weight 28) and 20% O2 (molecular weight 32),
>>>> > averages out to about 29. Methane is considerably lighter.
>>>>
>>>> Without knowing any of that, I guess I could have gotten there
>>>> by knowing that Methane is CH4. The Carbon is in the same
>>>> neighborhood as Oxygen and Nitrogen but the Hydrogen is
>>>> the lightest element by far.
>>>>
>>>> As for Google surveillance, please Google remember everything
>>>> I type. I love when I type the letter Y and it knows I want
>>>> YouTube. I've got nothing to hide.
>>>>
>>>> I normally run Firefox with an ad-blocker. I had no idea that YouTube shows
>>>> ads. To help these companies out during the shut down,
>>>> when I had to switch to Google Chrome
>>>> I didn't install an ad blocker. It's funny, I bought some rubber
>>>> gym flooring. Now everywhere I go I see rubber flooring ads.
>>>> I already bought the stuff, do they really think I'm going to buy more?
>>>
>>> The software that makes the determination of what kind of ad to
>>> present appears to be an example of the "artificial stupidity" branch
>>> of AI. How many washing machines do they think someone buys in a
>>> lifetime?
>>>
>>>> So, now Google knows I'm also interested in farts and density.
>>>> Doesn't matter to me.
>>
>> Ah, but at the moment, the question is "who's intereted in washing
>> machines?" They don't know that you've bought one. Once they've gotrt
>> better data/surveillance, that'll be fixed.
>>
>
> Even at that level it’s stupid. If I research washing machines in January,
> by June I’ve either bought one or decided I’m not interested, so,it’s
> stupid to,keep showing me the ads. I’ve seen this a few times where six
> months later I get an ad for some durable item with a long lifespan.
And I'm pretty sure that if I bought the thing on Amazon then Amazon
knows that I bought the thing.
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| Re: Is the Eternal September over [message #397934 is a reply to message #397882] |
Fri, 14 August 2020 14:18 |
Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On 2020-08-14, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
> I was tempted by the squirrel video but I've battled them myself.
> I figured I already knew it was hopeless.
>
> Maybe I'll check.
>
> Years ago I wanted a bird feeder in the yard but I didn't want
> a squirrel feeder. After a few attempts I decided, there was no
> way a squirrel could get up a smooth half inch metal pole coated in
> grease.
>
> Next morning I saw my greased metal pole converted into a mud covered
> metal pole with a squirrel throwing seed everywhere.
I was impressed by squirrels' ability to shinny down the 2-foot
wire with which I hung the feeder from a tree branch. Even when
I installed a plastic dome above the feeder, they proved quite
resourceful in getting around it.
> So, sometimes I enjoy the squirrel launcher videos.
I finally got a gadget called a "Yankee Flipper", a feeder whose
perches were hooked to an electric motor which was triggered by
the weight of a squirrel but not by birds. I witnessed a couple
of events which were even more amusing than the squirrel launcher.
> My hero AC builds lots of stuff and gets right to it.
> Doesn't talk about it like this guy. Until you see him install
> a radio in his truck with a chainsaw you haven't seen anything.
> Not sure your guy is in the same league, but like I said,
> maybe I'll look again.
Sounds like Red Green...
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.
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| Re: The ideal Language, or Is the Eternal September over [message #397935 is a reply to message #397854] |
Fri, 14 August 2020 14:18 |
Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On 2020-08-14, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
> I just don't think the pictographs have any place in our future common
> written language.
I wish I could agree with you, but I've seen too many pictographs
worming their way into our culture over the past couple of decades.
GUIs are accelerating the trend.
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.
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| Re: Is the Eternal September over [message #397936 is a reply to message #397857] |
Fri, 14 August 2020 14:18 |
Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On 2020-08-14, Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> wrote:
> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>
>> On 2020-08-13, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Years ago, my employer did one of those diversity training things. The
>>> speaker went on at length about the beauty of jive talk. Showing how 3
>>> words could express a multitude of ideas depending on the inflection. I
>>> think it was "she be gone". Seemed like a bunch of nonsense to me.
>
>> I think I heard something a while back about people trying to get "Ebonics"
>> established as a valid dialect. Feh.
>
> Your political leanings are showing.
Whatever they are - I'm not sure myself. I think of myself as a
radical moderate.
> "Ebonics" is a name given more than a century ago to what is now commonly
> known in linguistics as African-American Vernacular English, or AAVE.
> Just because it was treated as a joke by nighttime comedians when an effort
> was made to accommodate children whose native language was not American
> General Standard does not make it a nonlanguage, or invalid, or whatever
> you care to deem it in your perfection of mind.
>
> The syntax, morphology, and phonology of AAVE differ markedly from AGS,
> in ways which are easily described in the technical linguistic literature.
> Why don't you actually research the question, instead of dismissing it
> from your privileged position?
I plead guilty to being ignorant of the history of the term, or that it
even had a history. Thanks for the update. At the time I first heard
of it, my bullshit detectors were going off; the term was being used in
a way that made it sound like a creation of semi-literate charlatans who
were trying to justify their refusal to learn to speak clearly.
> Oh, right. This is one of those newsgroups.
Yup.
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.
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| Re: Is the Eternal September over [message #397937 is a reply to message #397885] |
Fri, 14 August 2020 14:45 |
Niklas Karlsson
Messages: 265
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2020-08-14, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 06:14:19 -0400
> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I think it's clear English will win out
>
> It looks that way today, but not so long ago French was the lingua
> franca, at another time many budding scientists were advised to learn German
> in order to keep up with their field. We may yet wind up all speaking Hindi.
Well said, sir!
Niklas
--
Today's product of a disturbed mind: The image of an acoustic coupler
fitted with ball gags.
-- Steve VanDevender in asr
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| Re: Is the Eternal September over [message #397938 is a reply to message #397913] |
Fri, 14 August 2020 14:46 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 14/08/2020 15:13, Peter Flass wrote:
>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 06:14:19 -0400
>>> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think it's clear English will win out
>>>
>>> It looks that way today, but not so long ago French was the lingua
>>> franca, at another time many budding scientists were advised to learn German
>>> in order to keep up with their field. We may yet wind up all speaking Hindi.
>>>
>>
>> I often think we should go back to Latin. We lost a lot when scientists,
>> etc. no longer shared a common language.
>>
>
> Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum videtur?
>
>
verba ex ore
(thanks Google, my Latin is all in the bit bucket)
--
Pete
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| Re: Is the Eternal September over [message #397941 is a reply to message #397868] |
Fri, 14 August 2020 15:31 |
Mike Spencer
Messages: 997
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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usenet@only.tnx (Questor) writes:
> And either you haven't heard of, or don't believe in the Whorfian
> Hypothesis: put simply, the idea that language shapes thought. We
> see some evidence of that in the many terms that English borrows for
> different concepts. A couple of examples: schadenfreude, zeitgeist.
> Yes, they can be explained in a few words, but its not same has
> having the concept encapsulated in a single word. And how many
> times has it been said of a foreign word or phrase, "there's not an
> exact translation." Puns, double entendres, and other word play are
> usually specific to a language and don't survive when expressed in
> another. So yes, those associations and humor would be lost, as
> well as a potentially different weltanshauung and way of thinking.
U.N. simultaneous interpreter, speaking English:
The Elbonian ambassador has just told a joke which is utterly
untranslateable. I'm sure he would be gratified if you would all
laugh just now.
--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
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| Re: Is the Eternal September over [message #397944 is a reply to message #397885] |
Fri, 14 August 2020 15:42 |
Mike Spencer
Messages: 997
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
> On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 06:14:19 -0400
> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I think it's clear English will win out
>
> It looks that way today, but not so long ago French was the lingua
> franca, at another time many budding scientists were advised to
> learn German in order to keep up with their field.
As a budding chemist, I was so advised in the mid-50s. So I learned
some German in high school and took "scientific German" at uni. As
it turned out, I only spent a year working in science but during that
year, the single most important book on the topic of our research was
Biochemie des Hoerorgans and I was able to read it. Still have my
personal copy.
These days, I can read non-political parts of der Spiegel with a
little effort. The vocabulary and subtext of German politics defeats
me.
> We may yet wind up all speaking Hindi.
--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
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| Re: Is the Eternal September over [message #397945 is a reply to message #397923] |
Fri, 14 August 2020 15:49 |
Mike Spencer
Messages: 997
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
> A while back you could tell a nerd by the plural of mouse. If he
> was a computer guy he'd call them "mouses", if he wasn't he'd call
> them "mice". But "mice" seems to have won that round.
I've always been happy with "mice" for rodents and "mouses" for
electronics. I thought the telltale usage was "Vaxen" or perhaps
"Emacsen".
The tell for "not a nerd" is referring to the oatmeal-colored desktop
box as the "CPU".
--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
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| Re: Is the Eternal September over [message #397946 is a reply to message #397934] |
Fri, 14 August 2020 15:57 |
Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
> On 2020-08-14, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I was tempted by the squirrel video but I've battled them myself.
>> I figured I already knew it was hopeless.
>>
>> Maybe I'll check.
>>
>> Years ago I wanted a bird feeder in the yard but I didn't want
>> a squirrel feeder. After a few attempts I decided, there was no
>> way a squirrel could get up a smooth half inch metal pole coated in
>> grease.
>>
>> Next morning I saw my greased metal pole converted into a mud covered
>> metal pole with a squirrel throwing seed everywhere.
>
> I was impressed by squirrels' ability to shinny down the 2-foot
> wire with which I hung the feeder from a tree branch. Even when
> I installed a plastic dome above the feeder, they proved quite
> resourceful in getting around it.
>
>> So, sometimes I enjoy the squirrel launcher videos.
>
> I finally got a gadget called a "Yankee Flipper", a feeder whose
> perches were hooked to an electric motor which was triggered by
> the weight of a squirrel but not by birds. I witnessed a couple
> of events which were even more amusing than the squirrel launcher.
>
>> My hero AC builds lots of stuff and gets right to it.
>> Doesn't talk about it like this guy. Until you see him install
>> a radio in his truck with a chainsaw you haven't seen anything.
>> Not sure your guy is in the same league, but like I said,
>> maybe I'll look again.
>
> Sounds like Red Green...
It may have sounded like that but it's nothing like that.
I'll post a link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PClVezOduFk
This one is only 18 minutes.
He often gets a little brutal but check out the result.
At the end he's got a really nice looking radio in the truck.
There's another one where he's trying one thing after another
to remove the hydraulic cylinder from a tractor. This is while
it's inside his shop. He finally maneuvers the bucket from his
excavator inside the door of the shop and yanks it off.
Without breaking anything. I can't stop laughing just typing this.
Got to go do some more painting.
--
Dan Espen
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| Re: The ideal Language, or Is the Eternal September over [message #397947 is a reply to message #397935] |
Fri, 14 August 2020 16:04 |
Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
> On 2020-08-14, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I just don't think the pictographs have any place in our future common
>> written language.
>
> I wish I could agree with you, but I've seen too many pictographs
> worming their way into our culture over the past couple of decades.
> GUIs are accelerating the trend.
Lord save us.
Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.
Of course a spattering of images where they don't belong
is nothing like a writing system with 50,000 pictograms.
Yeah, I just got educated, pictograms, not pictographs.
Here are some details:
How many symbols are there in Chinese?
How many characters are there? Altogether there are over 50,000
characters, though a comprehensive modern dictionary will rarely list
over 20,000 in use. An educated Chinese person will know about 8,000
characters, but you will only need about 2-3,000 to be able to read a
newspaper.
--
Dan Espen
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| Re: The ideal Language, or Is the Eternal September over [message #397949 is a reply to message #397935] |
Fri, 14 August 2020 16:08 |
Mike Spencer
Messages: 997
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
> On 2020-08-14, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I just don't think the pictographs have any place in our future
>> common written language.
>
> I wish I could agree with you, but I've seen too many pictographs
> worming their way into our culture over the past couple of decades.
> GUIs are accelerating the trend.
I forget the RFC numbers for these:
Windows Iconic Metalinguistic Protocol (WIMP)
Windows Iconic Droolproof Descriptive Language Extension (WIDDLE)
Cognitive Reassembler Access Protocol for Windows Applications
with Rebus Enhancement
Microsoft Iconic Canonical Reassembler for Ontic Cognitive
Enhancement of Proactive Heuristic Access to Linguistic Youthfulness
And since 2016, there's:
Translator for Rebus in Unix-compatible Mendacity Paradigms
ObFolklore: And to think, I learned about smilies in '63 from a friend
who had a summer programming job at MIT using a hard-copy terminal.
--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
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| Re: Is the Eternal September over [message #397953 is a reply to message #397944] |
Fri, 14 August 2020 16:42 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
>
>> On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 06:14:19 -0400
>> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I think it's clear English will win out
>>
>> It looks that way today, but not so long ago French was the lingua
>> franca, at another time many budding scientists were advised to
>> learn German in order to keep up with their field.
>
> As a budding chemist, I was so advised in the mid-50s. So I learned
> some German in high school and took "scientific German" at uni. As
> it turned out, I only spent a year working in science but during that
> year, the single most important book on the topic of our research was
> Biochemie des Hoerorgans and I was able to read it. Still have my
> personal copy.
>
> These days, I can read non-political parts of der Spiegel with a
> little effort. The vocabulary and subtext of German politics defeats
> me.
About the same here, ten years later. That’s one of the reasons I took
German in high school. I try to do a little with it each week. I can
understand around 40% of the dialog in German TV shows, and a bit more in
documentaries.
--
Pete
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| Re: Is the Eternal September over [message #397954 is a reply to message #397923] |
Fri, 14 August 2020 16:50 |
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Originally posted by: JimP
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 13:43:02 -0400, J. Clarke
<jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 07:13:23 -0700, Peter Flass
> <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> usenet@only.tnx (Questor) writes:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 13 Aug 2020 10:46:54 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> > Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> writes:
>>>> >> On 2020-08-13, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> 3 days later, and the only reason you can come up with that it's a
>>>> >>> blessing is that you like different languages? I'm curious, why
>>>> >>> do you like not being able to communicate with others? Or do you just
>>>> >>> like the intellectual challenge of being able to learn the few languages
>>>> >>> that you know?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Are there drawbacks to the wide variety of languages found in the world
>>>> >> today? Certainly.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> However, a language is part of the culture using it, and reflects that
>>>> >> culture in various ways. Removing a language loses us this cultural
>>>> >> signature, essentially destroying information. I think that would be
>>>> >> unfortunate.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> The present order of things, with English as the lingua franca (amusing,
>>>> >> since that means 'French language'), appears to work tolerably. Younger
>>>> >> people seem to have a decent command of English in lots of different
>>>> >> places.
>>>> >
>>>> > Sorry, but I believe that "diversity" argument is weak
>>>> > and counter productive.
>>>> >
>>>> > Years ago, my employer did one of those diversity training
>>>> > things. The speaker went on at length about the beauty of
>>>> > jive talk. Showing how 3 words could express a multitude of
>>>> > ideas depending on the inflection. I think it was "she be gone".
>>>> > Seemed like a bunch of nonsense to me.
>>>> > Speaking clearly and saying what you mean is the way to go.
>>>> >
>>>> > If your language has a unique way of expressing an idea,
>>>> > incorporate it into English (as we've done so often before).
>>>> > There's no reason for anything of value to be lost.
>>>>
>>>> I'm guessing you are not a big fan of poetry.
>>>
>>> Got that right.
>>>
>>> But I did like:
>>>
>>> Once I pondered weak and weary
>>> over many a quaint and forgotten lore...
>>> Quoth the raven nevermore.
>>>
>>> Hey, just looked it up, close.
>>>
>>>
>>>> As far as tone (inflection), there are many tonal languages, particularly in
>>>> Asia. But the same phenomena exists in English. Consider the following dialog:
>>>>
>>>> A: "I think we should check the foobar valve on the gizmo."
>>>> B: "Right."
>>>>
>>>> Depending on their tone, B's response might mean ready assent, questioning
>>>> hesitation, or even a sarcastic denial.
>>>
>>> True, but from what you wrote above it's completely impossible to tell.
>>> It's fun to be sarcastic in speech but the transcripts leave something
>>> to be desired.
>>>
>>>> And either you haven't heard of, or don't believe in the Whorfian Hypothesis:
>>>> put simply, the idea that language shapes thought. We see some evidence of that
>>>> in the many terms that English borrows for different concepts. A couple of
>>>> examples: schadenfreude, zeitgeist. Yes, they can be explained in a few words,
>>>> but its not same has having the concept encapsulated in a single word. And how
>>>> many times has it been said of a foreign word or phrase, "there's not an exact
>>>> translation." Puns, double entendres, and other word play are usually specific
>>>> to a language and don't survive when expressed in another. So yes, those
>>>> associations and humor would be lost, as well as a potentially different
>>>> weltanshauung and way of thinking.
>>>
>>> Somewhere along the line I said, if your language has unique
>>> ways of expressing things, that can be easily incorporated into English.
>>>
>>>> And what language should be the one language? Mandarin has by far the most
>>>> native speakers. Spanish is second, and is more widespread. English is third,
>>>> but Hindi has almost as many. Even outside of the French colonies, the French
>>>> language was long considered the language of diplomacy, and being fluent in it
>>>> was the mark of education and culture. Or perhaps you want to go in another
>>>> direction and pick a language spoken by only a small number of people. That
>>>> way, just about everybody is on equal footing in having to learn a new and
>>>> unfamilar language. And then there are the ad hoc "universal" languages.
>>>> Esperanto, anyone?
>>>>
>>>> English would be a poor choice. It's weakly inflected, and has many spelling
>>>> irregularities. It is known to be a difficult language for non-native speakers
>>>> to master. And without language mastery, one can't express unique and complex
>>>> ideas.
>>>
>>> Oh, sure we're all going to start using Esperanto.
>>> Didn't that crash and burn...yep, proposed in 1887.
>>>
>>> Hopefully we'll conquer this curse.
>>> I think it's clear English will win out, but I just want the curse to go
>>> away. If there's a better way to reach that end, so be it.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> It looks like English right now, but Id like to see the language cleaned
>> up with some of the crazy spellings and partial anachronistic verb
>> declensions removed. Im seeing this now, a bit. The past tense of plead
>> is pled, but Im seeing pleaded a lot more now, and similar.
>> Personally, I always use thru instead of through.
>
> A while back you could tell a nerd by the plural of mouse. If he was
> a computer guy he'd call them "mouses", if he wasn't he'd call them
> "mice". But "mice" seems to have won that round.
At two jobs I worked at over the years, when we were just talking to
each other back in the computer room, we called more than one computer
mouse, 'mooses'.
--
Jim
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| Re: Is the Eternal September over [message #397955 is a reply to message #397946] |
Fri, 14 August 2020 17:01 |
Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2020-08-14, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>
>> On 2020-08-14, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> My hero AC builds lots of stuff and gets right to it.
>>> Doesn't talk about it like this guy. Until you see him install
>>> a radio in his truck with a chainsaw you haven't seen anything.
>>> Not sure your guy is in the same league, but like I said,
>>> maybe I'll look again.
>>
>> Sounds like Red Green...
>
> It may have sounded like that but it's nothing like that.
>
> I'll post a link:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PClVezOduFk
OK, definitely not quite Red Green. He seems to know what
he's doing, and I didn't see a single piece of duct tape.
I love his "easy-access dash".
> This one is only 18 minutes.
Plus three ad breaks, grrr...
> He often gets a little brutal but check out the result.
Nice editorializing at the end.
> At the end he's got a really nice looking radio in the truck.
The Detroid auto stylists must be tearing their hair out, though.
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.
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| Re: The ideal Language, or Is the Eternal September over [message #397962 is a reply to message #397947] |
Fri, 14 August 2020 19:18 |
Mike Spencer
Messages: 997
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:
> How many symbols are there in Chinese?
> How many characters are there? Altogether there are over 50,000
> characters, though a comprehensive modern dictionary will rarely list
> over 20,000 in use. An educated Chinese person will know about 8,000
> characters, but you will only need about 2-3,000 to be able to read a
> newspaper.
I once saw a photo of a movable type font for a Chinese newspaper. No
way to determine, from the photo, how many separate boxes there were
but it occupied a whole wall and was used by standing on a
roller-mounted ladder, composing stick in hand, climbing up and down
or zinging the ladder back and forth to reach the next bit of type.
--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
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| Re: The ideal Language, or Is the Eternal September over [message #397965 is a reply to message #397962] |
Fri, 14 August 2020 21:15 |
Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
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Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> writes:
> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> How many symbols are there in Chinese?
>> How many characters are there? Altogether there are over 50,000
>> characters, though a comprehensive modern dictionary will rarely list
>> over 20,000 in use. An educated Chinese person will know about 8,000
>> characters, but you will only need about 2-3,000 to be able to read a
>> newspaper.
>
> I once saw a photo of a movable type font for a Chinese newspaper. No
> way to determine, from the photo, how many separate boxes there were
> but it occupied a whole wall and was used by standing on a
> roller-mounted ladder, composing stick in hand, climbing up and down
> or zinging the ladder back and forth to reach the next bit of type.
I saw a similar photo for a Japanese keyboard.
A keyboard with about 50 x 50 keys. A big square monstrosity.
--
Dan Espen
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| Re: Is the Eternal September over [message #398007 is a reply to message #397813] |
Sat, 15 August 2020 18:46 |
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Originally posted by: maus
On 2020-08-13, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> wrote:
>> On 8/13/2020 9:46 AM, Dan Espen wrote:
>>> Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 2020-08-13, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >
>> 12% of the world's population (17% if you include all the various
>> dialects), as opposed to 5% for English.
>>
>> Me, I'm too old to learn Chinese, so everybody should learn the
>> language I already know.
>>
>
> Mandarin has a lot of native speakers, but few outside of China. The
> educated elites of just about everywhere speak English (thanks, British
> Empire), and it’s largely the language of science. A lot of archaeology
> papers are in German or French, however.
>
Local 'chinese' speak, I am told, Cantonese. Sounds more
arguementetive (sp?) that Mandarin.
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| Re: Is the Eternal September over [message #398008 is a reply to message #397554] |
Sat, 15 August 2020 18:55 |
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Originally posted by: maus
On 2020-08-14, Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> wrote:
> On 8/13/2020 4:59 PM, Gerard Schildberger wrote:
>> On Thursday, August 13, 2020 at 11:53:56 AM UTC-5, Peter Flass wrote:
>>> Dave Garland wrote:
>
>>>>
>>>> If your argument is for standardization, I trust you'd be ok with the
>>>> common language being Mandarin Chinese? It's the native language of
>>>> 12% of the world's population (17% if you include all the various
>>>> dialects), as opposed to 5% for English.
>>>>
>>>> Me, I'm too old to learn Chinese, so everybody should learn the
>>>> language I already know.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Mandarin has a lot of native speakers, but few outside of China. The
>>> educated elites of just about everywhere speak English (thanks, British
>>> Empire), and it’s largely the language of science. A lot of archaeology
>>> papers are in German or French, however.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Pete
>>
>> That mention of 5% of the world's population speaking "English",
>> contradicts what I gleaned from a book (circa 1985) on linguistics:
>>
>> There were more people in China learning English that the rest of
>> the world who spoke English. __________________ Gerard Schildberger
>
> That was "native speakers", what kids learn from their parents. A
> whole lot of people learn English, because that's an important
> language. Or has been, we'll see whether the faltering of American
> dominance continues.
>>
>
Recent governments in India have been very Nationalistic, which means
that among the large groups of people who can, speak English. An opinion
of many Southern Indians I have spokn to recently. .
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| Re: Is the Eternal September over [message #398010 is a reply to message #397908] |
Sat, 15 August 2020 19:03 |
|
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Originally posted by: maus
On 2020-08-14, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>> On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 06:14:19 -0400
>> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I think it's clear English will win out
>>
>> It looks that way today, but not so long ago French was the lingua
>> franca, at another time many budding scientists were advised to learn German
>> in order to keep up with their field. We may yet wind up all speaking Hindi.
>>
>
> I often think we should go back to Latin. We lost a lot when scientists,
> etc. no longer shared a common language.
>
When Latin was king, educated people spoke Greek. Nobody know if J.C
spoke 'Koine' or Amaraic (sp?) Paul communicated in Greek, I think.
Since I was confined in Bed, I have read about three books a day, and
can now tell within 5 pages or so if the author is American. There is
a growing amount of difference.
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| Re: Is the Eternal September over [message #398011 is a reply to message #397938] |
Sat, 15 August 2020 19:07 |
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Originally posted by: maus
On 2020-08-14, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On 14/08/2020 15:13, Peter Flass wrote:
>>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 06:14:19 -0400
>>>> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > I think it's clear English will win out
>>>>
>>>> It looks that way today, but not so long ago French was the lingua
>>>> franca, at another time many budding scientists were advised to learn German
>>>> in order to keep up with their field. We may yet wind up all speaking Hindi.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I often think we should go back to Latin. We lost a lot when scientists,
>>> etc. no longer shared a common language.
>>>
>>
>> Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum videtur?
>>
>>
>
> verba ex ore
>
> (thanks Google, my Latin is all in the bit bucket)
>
During my brief period of post primary education, I was taught latin.
"It will help you learn French, Spanish, and Italian."
"Would it not be better to just go to learn those languages.."
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| Re: Is the Eternal September over [message #398012 is a reply to message #397953] |
Sat, 15 August 2020 19:10 |
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Originally posted by: maus
On 2020-08-14, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>>
>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
>>
>>> On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 06:14:19 -0400
>>> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think it's clear English will win out
>>>
>>> It looks that way today, but not so long ago French was the lingua
>>> franca, at another time many budding scientists were advised to
>>> learn German in order to keep up with their field.
>>
>> As a budding chemist, I was so advised in the mid-50s. So I learned
>> some German in high school and took "scientific German" at uni. As
>> it turned out, I only spent a year working in science but during that
>> year, the single most important book on the topic of our research was
>> Biochemie des Hoerorgans and I was able to read it. Still have my
>> personal copy.
>>
>> These days, I can read non-political parts of der Spiegel with a
>> little effort. The vocabulary and subtext of German politics defeats
>> me.
>
> About the same here, ten years later. That’s one of the reasons I took
> German in high school. I try to do a little with it each week. I can
> understand around 40% of the dialog in German TV shows, and a bit more in
> documentaries.
>
Avoid German Comedies... EU Joke. Next Spring Ireland will be theonly EU
country to have English as a primary language.
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| Re: The ideal Language, or Is the Eternal September over [message #398036 is a reply to message #398032] |
Sun, 16 August 2020 12:00 |
John Levine
Messages: 1405
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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In article <87o8nahqkd.fsf@eder.anydns.info>,
Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> wrote:
> On Do 13 Aug 2020 at 17:12, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> is there an app that translates pinyin to glyphs? It seems do-able.
>
> There are a lot, but it is not a 1 to 1 mapping.
> Emacs can do it as well, of course.
Pinyin doesn't capture tones so input methods use context to figure
out which character you meant and make it easy to back up and fix it
when they guess wrong.
I think you will find a pinyin input method in every PC and phone and
tablet sold these days although it's not going to be enabled by
default on devices sold in North America.
--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
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| Re: Is the Eternal September over [message #398039 is a reply to message #398011] |
Sun, 16 August 2020 12:22 |
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Originally posted by: JimP
On 15 Aug 2020 23:07:16 GMT, maus <maus@dmaus.org> wrote:
> On 2020-08-14, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> On 14/08/2020 15:13, Peter Flass wrote:
>>>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>>> > On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 06:14:19 -0400
>>>> > Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> I think it's clear English will win out
>>>> >
>>>> > It looks that way today, but not so long ago French was the lingua
>>>> > franca, at another time many budding scientists were advised to learn German
>>>> > in order to keep up with their field. We may yet wind up all speaking Hindi.
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> I often think we should go back to Latin. We lost a lot when scientists,
>>>> etc. no longer shared a common language.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum videtur?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> verba ex ore
>>
>> (thanks Google, my Latin is all in the bit bucket)
>>
>
> During my brief period of post primary education, I was taught latin.
>
> "It will help you learn French, Spanish, and Italian."
>
> "Would it not be better to just go to learn those languages.."
High school I went to only had Latin and formal Spanish. Since I was a
C student in high school, I was one of many who were told we weren't
smart enough to take latin as it was for doctors, lawyers,
pharmacists, etc. and it didn't look like I would be one of those
professionals. Yeah, I got my degree in applied computer science and
repaired computers for over 30 years.
--
Jim
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| Re: Is the Eternal September over [message #398068 is a reply to message #398012] |
Mon, 17 August 2020 04:21 |
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 15 Aug 2020 23:10:14 GMT
maus <maus@dmaus.org> wrote:
> Avoid German Comedies... EU Joke. Next Spring Ireland will be theonly EU
> country to have English as a primary language.
Alternatively the only one not to have English as a secondary
language.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
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