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Re: Star Trek: Discovery star replies to show's racist critics [message #393976 is a reply to message #393975] Sat, 24 June 2017 15:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dimensional Traveler is currently offline  Dimensional Traveler
Messages: 60
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Member
On 6/24/2017 12:06 PM, Jim G. wrote:
> Doc O'Leary sent the following on 06/24/2017 at 11:21 AM:
>> Trek
>> *used* to smartly address current social issues via allegory.
>> Everything
>> I read about this new show seems to indicate no such subtlety will exist.
>
> Yep. Most writers -- especially the younger ones -- seem to prefer
> anvils these days.
>
> Not only that, but there's this, as well:
>
> https://www.newsarama.com/35070-star-trek-discovery-to-explo re-space-outside-roddenberry-s-box.html
>
> (or http://tinyurl.com/ycczjbym)
>
> From the start of the article:
>
> QUOTE
> Star Trek: Discovery will break the longstanding - but somewhat unspoken
> - "Roddenberry's Box" rule of the Star Trek universe - a rule laid out
> by Star Trek creator Gene Roddenberry which says that members of
> Starfleet cannot be shown in deep conflict with each other or portrayed
> in too negative a light.
>
> That rule - that Starfleet members must be ultimately upstanding - has
> been stretched a few times in the series' 50 year history, especially in
> recent films. But Discovery's showrunners Aaron Harberts and Gretchen J.
> Berg say the show will explore conflict between members of Starfleet in
> more depth than ever before.
> END QUOTE
>
> So in addition to a lack of subtlety, we can expect a lack of discipline
> and an overall attitude of "My opinion WILL be heard because my
> self-esteem matters and I have a right to be heard. Even though I'm just
> an ensign."
>
> I also like the "especially in recent films" bit in that quote, which is
> a kind way of pointing out one of the many ways that Team Abrams has
> *already* damaged this franchise.
>
Don't tempt me to post my review of Star Dreck again where I point out
that the crew of Abrahm's Enterprise had less discipline than a Somali
pirate boat.

--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
Re: Star Trek: Discovery star replies to show's racist critics [message #393977 is a reply to message #393975] Sat, 24 June 2017 16:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
anim8rFSK is currently offline  anim8rFSK
Messages: 215
Registered: July 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
In article <oimd05$n7l$3@dont-email.me>,
"Jim G." <jimgysin@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:

> Doc O'Leary sent the following on 06/24/2017 at 11:21 AM:
>> Trek
>> *used* to smartly address current social issues via allegory. Everything
>> I read about this new show seems to indicate no such subtlety will exist.
>
> Yep. Most writers -- especially the younger ones -- seem to prefer
> anvils these days.
>
> Not only that, but there's this, as well:
>
> https://www.newsarama.com/35070-star-trek-discovery-to-explo re-space-outside-r
> oddenberry-s-box.html
> (or http://tinyurl.com/ycczjbym)
>
> From the start of the article:
>
> QUOTE
> Star Trek: Discovery will break the longstanding - but somewhat unspoken
> - "Roddenberry's Box" rule of the Star Trek universe - a rule laid out
> by Star Trek creator Gene Roddenberry which says that members of
> Starfleet cannot be shown in deep conflict with each other or portrayed
> in too negative a light.
>
> That rule - that Starfleet members must be ultimately upstanding - has
> been stretched a few times in the series' 50 year history, especially in
> recent films. But Discovery's showrunners Aaron Harberts and Gretchen J.
> Berg say the show will explore conflict between members of Starfleet in
> more depth than ever before.
> END QUOTE
>
> So in addition to a lack of subtlety, we can expect a lack of discipline
> and an overall attitude of "My opinion WILL be heard because my
> self-esteem matters and I have a right to be heard. Even though I'm just
> an ensign."
>
> I also like the "especially in recent films" bit in that quote, which is
> a kind way of pointing out one of the many ways that Team Abrams has
> *already* damaged this franchise.

racist

--
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Re: Star Trek: Discovery star replies to show's racist critics [message #393981 is a reply to message #393976] Sat, 24 June 2017 17:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jim G. is currently offline  Jim G.
Messages: 52
Registered: August 2011
Karma: 0
Member
Dimensional Traveler sent the following on 06/24/2017 at 02:49 PM:
> On 6/24/2017 12:06 PM, Jim G. wrote:
>> Doc O'Leary sent the following on 06/24/2017 at 11:21 AM:
>>> Trek
>>> *used* to smartly address current social issues via allegory.
>>> Everything
>>> I read about this new show seems to indicate no such subtlety will exist.
>>
>> Yep. Most writers -- especially the younger ones -- seem to prefer
>> anvils these days.
>>
>> Not only that, but there's this, as well:
>>
>> https://www.newsarama.com/35070-star-trek-discovery-to-explo re-space-outside-roddenberry-s-box.html
>>
>> (or http://tinyurl.com/ycczjbym)
>>
>> From the start of the article:
>>
>> QUOTE
>> Star Trek: Discovery will break the longstanding - but somewhat unspoken
>> - "Roddenberry's Box" rule of the Star Trek universe - a rule laid out
>> by Star Trek creator Gene Roddenberry which says that members of
>> Starfleet cannot be shown in deep conflict with each other or portrayed
>> in too negative a light.
>>
>> That rule - that Starfleet members must be ultimately upstanding - has
>> been stretched a few times in the series' 50 year history, especially in
>> recent films. But Discovery's showrunners Aaron Harberts and Gretchen J.
>> Berg say the show will explore conflict between members of Starfleet in
>> more depth than ever before.
>> END QUOTE
>>
>> So in addition to a lack of subtlety, we can expect a lack of discipline
>> and an overall attitude of "My opinion WILL be heard because my
>> self-esteem matters and I have a right to be heard. Even though I'm just
>> an ensign."
>>
>> I also like the "especially in recent films" bit in that quote, which is
>> a kind way of pointing out one of the many ways that Team Abrams has
>> *already* damaged this franchise.
>>
> Don't tempt me to post my review of Star Dreck again where I point out
> that the crew of Abrahm's Enterprise had less discipline than a Somali
> pirate boat.

Heh. Like I said, the writer above was being charitable with the
"stretched" bit. TV and movie writers these days seem to prefer to write
to an audience that shuns things like self-control and self-discipline.

--
Jim G. | A fan of the good and the bad, but not the mediocre
“This is where you end up when your parents don't tell you they love
you.” – Clive Babineaux, iZOMBIE
Re: Star Trek: Discovery star replies to show's racist critics [message #393982 is a reply to message #393974] Sat, 24 June 2017 17:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wouter Valentijn is currently offline  Wouter Valentijn
Messages: 228
Registered: December 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Op 24-6-2017 om 18:21 schreef Doc O'Leary:
> For your reference, records indicate that
> Wouter Valentijn <liam@valentijn.nu> wrote:
>
>> Op 22-6-2017 om 20:47 schreef anim8rfsk:
>>>
>>> I hate that they're getting well established Trek history wrong - again.
>>> Is that racist?
>>
>> They did not refer to criticism concerning the timeline.
>
> Maybe, but maybe not. You can’t add new diversity to an established
> franchise like Star Trek, especially via retcon, without addressing the
> depictions of diversity in the existing story lines. Or without
> representing *actual* population distributions in a society. Trek
> *used* to smartly address current social issues via allegory. Everything
> I read about this new show seems to indicate no such subtlety will exist.
> It’s hard to have high expectations for *any* show that is pushing an
> agenda that has nothing to do with telling a great story.
>

So, what's exactly new to a diversity that has established the concept
of 'INFINITE Diversity in Infinite Combinations'? I'd say that already
covers at least ALL Diversity already. :-)

And how would it not represent actual population distributions? Is that
only a matter of percentages or a representation of (all) possibilities?


This discussion reminds me of a speech made by Joss Whedon in 2006,
which was about (strong) women (characters) specifically, but might
apply here as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYaczoJMRhs


It will cease being an issue the moment the questions on the 'why' cease.


--
Wouter Valentijn www.j3v.net

"Be yourself no matter what they say"

Sting ("Englishman in New York")

liam=mail
Re: Star Trek: Discovery star replies to show's racist critics [message #393983 is a reply to message #393977] Sat, 24 June 2017 17:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jim G. is currently offline  Jim G.
Messages: 52
Registered: August 2011
Karma: 0
Member
anim8rfsk sent the following on 06/24/2017 at 03:16 PM:
> In article <oimd05$n7l$3@dont-email.me>,
> "Jim G." <jimgysin@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Doc O'Leary sent the following on 06/24/2017 at 11:21 AM:
>>> Trek
>>> *used* to smartly address current social issues via allegory. Everything
>>> I read about this new show seems to indicate no such subtlety will exist.
>>
>> Yep. Most writers -- especially the younger ones -- seem to prefer
>> anvils these days.
>>
>> Not only that, but there's this, as well:
>>
>> https://www.newsarama.com/35070-star-trek-discovery-to-explo re-space-outside-r
>> oddenberry-s-box.html
>> (or http://tinyurl.com/ycczjbym)
>>
>> From the start of the article:
>>
>> QUOTE
>> Star Trek: Discovery will break the longstanding - but somewhat unspoken
>> - "Roddenberry's Box" rule of the Star Trek universe - a rule laid out
>> by Star Trek creator Gene Roddenberry which says that members of
>> Starfleet cannot be shown in deep conflict with each other or portrayed
>> in too negative a light.
>>
>> That rule - that Starfleet members must be ultimately upstanding - has
>> been stretched a few times in the series' 50 year history, especially in
>> recent films. But Discovery's showrunners Aaron Harberts and Gretchen J.
>> Berg say the show will explore conflict between members of Starfleet in
>> more depth than ever before.
>> END QUOTE
>>
>> So in addition to a lack of subtlety, we can expect a lack of discipline
>> and an overall attitude of "My opinion WILL be heard because my
>> self-esteem matters and I have a right to be heard. Even though I'm just
>> an ensign."
>>
>> I also like the "especially in recent films" bit in that quote, which is
>> a kind way of pointing out one of the many ways that Team Abrams has
>> *already* damaged this franchise.
>
> racist

Heh. No, Abrams did his damage in the discipline and dumbing-down
departments. This latest fustercluck seems committed to doing its damage
in the "diversity" and "passion" departments. Honestly, I wonder if J.J.
is paying these idiots to provide a new target for the anger and
hostility of Trek purists. All I know is that each time someone new
comes along to "improve" Trek for a more "inclusive" audience, the worse
the show gets.

--
Jim G. | A fan of the good and the bad, but not the mediocre
“This is where you end up when your parents don't tell you they love
you.” – Clive Babineaux, iZOMBIE
Re: Star Trek: Discovery star replies to show's racist critics [message #393984 is a reply to message #393983] Sat, 24 June 2017 17:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
anim8rFSK is currently offline  anim8rFSK
Messages: 215
Registered: July 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
In article <oimjvf$o5k$3@dont-email.me>,
"Jim G." <jimgysin@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:

> anim8rfsk sent the following on 06/24/2017 at 03:16 PM:
>> In article <oimd05$n7l$3@dont-email.me>,
>> "Jim G." <jimgysin@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> Doc O'Leary sent the following on 06/24/2017 at 11:21 AM:
>>>> Trek
>>>> *used* to smartly address current social issues via allegory.
>>>> Everything
>>>> I read about this new show seems to indicate no such subtlety will exist.
>>>
>>> Yep. Most writers -- especially the younger ones -- seem to prefer
>>> anvils these days.
>>>
>>> Not only that, but there's this, as well:
>>>
>>> https://www.newsarama.com/35070-star-trek-discovery-to-explo re-space-outsid
>>> e-r
>>> oddenberry-s-box.html
>>> (or http://tinyurl.com/ycczjbym)
>>>
>>> From the start of the article:
>>>
>>> QUOTE
>>> Star Trek: Discovery will break the longstanding - but somewhat unspoken
>>> - "Roddenberry's Box" rule of the Star Trek universe - a rule laid out
>>> by Star Trek creator Gene Roddenberry which says that members of
>>> Starfleet cannot be shown in deep conflict with each other or portrayed
>>> in too negative a light.
>>>
>>> That rule - that Starfleet members must be ultimately upstanding - has
>>> been stretched a few times in the series' 50 year history, especially in
>>> recent films. But Discovery's showrunners Aaron Harberts and Gretchen J.
>>> Berg say the show will explore conflict between members of Starfleet in
>>> more depth than ever before.
>>> END QUOTE
>>>
>>> So in addition to a lack of subtlety, we can expect a lack of discipline
>>> and an overall attitude of "My opinion WILL be heard because my
>>> self-esteem matters and I have a right to be heard. Even though I'm just
>>> an ensign."
>>>
>>> I also like the "especially in recent films" bit in that quote, which is
>>> a kind way of pointing out one of the many ways that Team Abrams has
>>> *already* damaged this franchise.
>>
>> racist
>
> Heh. No, Abrams did his damage in the discipline and dumbing-down
> departments. This latest fustercluck seems committed to doing its damage
> in the "diversity" and "passion" departments. Honestly, I wonder if J.J.
> is paying these idiots to provide a new target for the anger and
> hostility of Trek purists. All I know is that each time someone new
> comes along to "improve" Trek for a more "inclusive" audience, the worse
> the show gets.

But don't you think this whole thing is staging, so that they can cry
'racist' to *any* complaint about Star Trek STD?

--
Join your old RAT friends at
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1688985234647266/
Re: Star Trek: Discovery star replies to show's racist critics [message #393985 is a reply to message #393984] Sat, 24 June 2017 19:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dimensional Traveler is currently offline  Dimensional Traveler
Messages: 60
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Member
On 6/24/2017 2:44 PM, anim8rfsk wrote:
> In article <oimjvf$o5k$3@dont-email.me>,
> "Jim G." <jimgysin@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>> anim8rfsk sent the following on 06/24/2017 at 03:16 PM:
>>> In article <oimd05$n7l$3@dont-email.me>,
>>> "Jim G." <jimgysin@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Doc O'Leary sent the following on 06/24/2017 at 11:21 AM:
>>>> > Trek
>>>> > *used* to smartly address current social issues via allegory.
>>>> > Everything
>>>> > I read about this new show seems to indicate no such subtlety will exist.
>>>>
>>>> Yep. Most writers -- especially the younger ones -- seem to prefer
>>>> anvils these days.
>>>>
>>>> Not only that, but there's this, as well:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.newsarama.com/35070-star-trek-discovery-to-explo re-space-outsid
>>>> e-r
>>>> oddenberry-s-box.html
>>>> (or http://tinyurl.com/ycczjbym)
>>>>
>>>> From the start of the article:
>>>>
>>>> QUOTE
>>>> Star Trek: Discovery will break the longstanding - but somewhat unspoken
>>>> - "Roddenberry's Box" rule of the Star Trek universe - a rule laid out
>>>> by Star Trek creator Gene Roddenberry which says that members of
>>>> Starfleet cannot be shown in deep conflict with each other or portrayed
>>>> in too negative a light.
>>>>
>>>> That rule - that Starfleet members must be ultimately upstanding - has
>>>> been stretched a few times in the series' 50 year history, especially in
>>>> recent films. But Discovery's showrunners Aaron Harberts and Gretchen J.
>>>> Berg say the show will explore conflict between members of Starfleet in
>>>> more depth than ever before.
>>>> END QUOTE
>>>>
>>>> So in addition to a lack of subtlety, we can expect a lack of discipline
>>>> and an overall attitude of "My opinion WILL be heard because my
>>>> self-esteem matters and I have a right to be heard. Even though I'm just
>>>> an ensign."
>>>>
>>>> I also like the "especially in recent films" bit in that quote, which is
>>>> a kind way of pointing out one of the many ways that Team Abrams has
>>>> *already* damaged this franchise.
>>>
>>> racist
>>
>> Heh. No, Abrams did his damage in the discipline and dumbing-down
>> departments. This latest fustercluck seems committed to doing its damage
>> in the "diversity" and "passion" departments. Honestly, I wonder if J.J.
>> is paying these idiots to provide a new target for the anger and
>> hostility of Trek purists. All I know is that each time someone new
>> comes along to "improve" Trek for a more "inclusive" audience, the worse
>> the show gets.
>
> But don't you think this whole thing is staging, so that they can cry
> 'racist' to *any* complaint about Star Trek STD?
>
Which is why I hate this "diverse" BS. I have no problem with having
various combinations of skin tones and both sexes filling roles. What I
do have a problem with is the scream-it-in-my-face "See how diverse we
are" to justify that they ARE being deliberately racist. It doesn't
matter _what_ group you are treating unequally, treating _any_ group
unequally is racist.

--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
Re: Star Trek: Discovery star replies to show's racist critics [message #393986 is a reply to message #393985] Sat, 24 June 2017 20:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

In article <oimst8$phr$1@dont-email.me>, dtravel@sonic.net says...
>
> On 6/24/2017 2:44 PM, anim8rfsk wrote:
>> In article <oimjvf$o5k$3@dont-email.me>,
>> "Jim G." <jimgysin@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> anim8rfsk sent the following on 06/24/2017 at 03:16 PM:
>>>> In article <oimd05$n7l$3@dont-email.me>,
>>>> "Jim G." <jimgysin@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > Doc O'Leary sent the following on 06/24/2017 at 11:21 AM:
>>>> >> Trek
>>>> >> *used* to smartly address current social issues via allegory.
>>>> >> Everything
>>>> >> I read about this new show seems to indicate no such subtlety will exist.
>>>> >
>>>> > Yep. Most writers -- especially the younger ones -- seem to prefer
>>>> > anvils these days.
>>>> >
>>>> > Not only that, but there's this, as well:
>>>> >
>>>> > https://www.newsarama.com/35070-star-trek-discovery-to-explo re-space-outsid
>>>> > e-r
>>>> > oddenberry-s-box.html
>>>> > (or http://tinyurl.com/ycczjbym)
>>>> >
>>>> > From the start of the article:
>>>> >
>>>> > QUOTE
>>>> > Star Trek: Discovery will break the longstanding - but somewhat unspoken
>>>> > - "Roddenberry's Box" rule of the Star Trek universe - a rule laid out
>>>> > by Star Trek creator Gene Roddenberry which says that members of
>>>> > Starfleet cannot be shown in deep conflict with each other or portrayed
>>>> > in too negative a light.
>>>> >
>>>> > That rule - that Starfleet members must be ultimately upstanding - has
>>>> > been stretched a few times in the series' 50 year history, especially in
>>>> > recent films. But Discovery's showrunners Aaron Harberts and Gretchen J.
>>>> > Berg say the show will explore conflict between members of Starfleet in
>>>> > more depth than ever before.
>>>> > END QUOTE
>>>> >
>>>> > So in addition to a lack of subtlety, we can expect a lack of discipline
>>>> > and an overall attitude of "My opinion WILL be heard because my
>>>> > self-esteem matters and I have a right to be heard. Even though I'm just
>>>> > an ensign."
>>>> >
>>>> > I also like the "especially in recent films" bit in that quote, which is
>>>> > a kind way of pointing out one of the many ways that Team Abrams has
>>>> > *already* damaged this franchise.
>>>>
>>>> racist
>>>
>>> Heh. No, Abrams did his damage in the discipline and dumbing-down
>>> departments. This latest fustercluck seems committed to doing its damage
>>> in the "diversity" and "passion" departments. Honestly, I wonder if J.J.
>>> is paying these idiots to provide a new target for the anger and
>>> hostility of Trek purists. All I know is that each time someone new
>>> comes along to "improve" Trek for a more "inclusive" audience, the worse
>>> the show gets.
>>
>> But don't you think this whole thing is staging, so that they can cry
>> 'racist' to *any* complaint about Star Trek STD?
>>
> Which is why I hate this "diverse" BS. I have no problem with having
> various combinations of skin tones and both sexes filling roles. What I
> do have a problem with is the scream-it-in-my-face "See how diverse we
> are" to justify that they ARE being deliberately racist. It doesn't
> matter _what_ group you are treating unequally, treating _any_ group
> unequally is racist.

This is social justice warrioring for you though. Another reason that we
have a bumbling idiot who nobody will ever accuse of being a Social Justice
Warrior in the White House.
Re: Star Trek: Discovery star replies to show's racist critics [message #393987 is a reply to message #393985] Sat, 24 June 2017 21:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
anim8rFSK is currently offline  anim8rFSK
Messages: 215
Registered: July 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
In article <oimst8$phr$1@dont-email.me>,
Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:

> On 6/24/2017 2:44 PM, anim8rfsk wrote:
>> In article <oimjvf$o5k$3@dont-email.me>,
>> "Jim G." <jimgysin@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> anim8rfsk sent the following on 06/24/2017 at 03:16 PM:
>>>> In article <oimd05$n7l$3@dont-email.me>,
>>>> "Jim G." <jimgysin@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > Doc O'Leary sent the following on 06/24/2017 at 11:21 AM:
>>>> >> Trek
>>>> >> *used* to smartly address current social issues via allegory.
>>>> >> Everything
>>>> >> I read about this new show seems to indicate no such subtlety will
>>>> >> exist.
>>>> >
>>>> > Yep. Most writers -- especially the younger ones -- seem to prefer
>>>> > anvils these days.
>>>> >
>>>> > Not only that, but there's this, as well:
>>>> >
>>>> > https://www.newsarama.com/35070-star-trek-discovery-to-explo re-space-outs
>>>> > id
>>>> > e-r
>>>> > oddenberry-s-box.html
>>>> > (or http://tinyurl.com/ycczjbym)
>>>> >
>>>> > From the start of the article:
>>>> >
>>>> > QUOTE
>>>> > Star Trek: Discovery will break the longstanding - but somewhat unspoken
>>>> > - "Roddenberry's Box" rule of the Star Trek universe - a rule laid out
>>>> > by Star Trek creator Gene Roddenberry which says that members of
>>>> > Starfleet cannot be shown in deep conflict with each other or portrayed
>>>> > in too negative a light.
>>>> >
>>>> > That rule - that Starfleet members must be ultimately upstanding - has
>>>> > been stretched a few times in the series' 50 year history, especially in
>>>> > recent films. But Discovery's showrunners Aaron Harberts and Gretchen J.
>>>> > Berg say the show will explore conflict between members of Starfleet in
>>>> > more depth than ever before.
>>>> > END QUOTE
>>>> >
>>>> > So in addition to a lack of subtlety, we can expect a lack of discipline
>>>> > and an overall attitude of "My opinion WILL be heard because my
>>>> > self-esteem matters and I have a right to be heard. Even though I'm just
>>>> > an ensign."
>>>> >
>>>> > I also like the "especially in recent films" bit in that quote, which is
>>>> > a kind way of pointing out one of the many ways that Team Abrams has
>>>> > *already* damaged this franchise.
>>>>
>>>> racist
>>>
>>> Heh. No, Abrams did his damage in the discipline and dumbing-down
>>> departments. This latest fustercluck seems committed to doing its damage
>>> in the "diversity" and "passion" departments. Honestly, I wonder if J.J.
>>> is paying these idiots to provide a new target for the anger and
>>> hostility of Trek purists. All I know is that each time someone new
>>> comes along to "improve" Trek for a more "inclusive" audience, the worse
>>> the show gets.
>>
>> But don't you think this whole thing is staging, so that they can cry
>> 'racist' to *any* complaint about Star Trek STD?
>>
> Which is why I hate this "diverse" BS. I have no problem with having
> various combinations of skin tones and both sexes filling roles. What I
> do have a problem with is the scream-it-in-my-face "See how diverse we
> are" to justify that they ARE being deliberately racist. It doesn't
> matter _what_ group you are treating unequally, treating _any_ group
> unequally is racist.

Which is why I won't watch CBASS, who define 'diverse' as 'non-white'

--
Join your old RAT friends at
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1688985234647266/
Re: Star Trek: Discovery star replies to show's racist critics [message #393988 is a reply to message #393982] Sat, 24 June 2017 22:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Obveeus is currently offline  Obveeus
Messages: 31
Registered: November 2012
Karma: 0
Member
On 6/24/2017 5:04 PM, Wouter Valentijn wrote:
> Op 24-6-2017 om 18:21 schreef Doc O'Leary:
>> For your reference, records indicate that
>> Wouter Valentijn <liam@valentijn.nu> wrote:
>>
>>> Op 22-6-2017 om 20:47 schreef anim8rfsk:
>>>>
>>>> I hate that they're getting well established Trek history wrong -
>>>> again.
>>>> Is that racist?
>>>
>>> They did not refer to criticism concerning the timeline.
>>
>> Maybe, but maybe not. You can’t add new diversity to an established
>> franchise like Star Trek, especially via retcon, without addressing the
>> depictions of diversity in the existing story lines. Or without
>> representing *actual* population distributions in a society. Trek
>> *used* to smartly address current social issues via allegory. Everything
>> I read about this new show seems to indicate no such subtlety will exist.
>> It’s hard to have high expectations for *any* show that is pushing an
>> agenda that has nothing to do with telling a great story.
>>
>
> So, what's exactly new to a diversity that has established the concept
> of 'INFINITE Diversity in Infinite Combinations'? I'd say that already
> covers at least ALL Diversity already. :-)
>
> And how would it not represent actual population distributions? Is that
> only a matter of percentages or a representation of (all) possibilities?
>
>
> This discussion reminds me of a speech made by Joss Whedon in 2006,
> which was about (strong) women (characters) specifically, but might
> apply here as well.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYaczoJMRhs
>
>
> It will cease being an issue the moment the questions on the 'why' cease.

The original series had a black female on the bridge. Also an Asian
male. Also a Russian male. Also an alien. There was only one good old
white boy there. Now, the new show has a 'diverse cast' and many people
here are complaining about it...I guess just because they can't handle
the word diverse? maybe it is because the good old white boy isn't the
'leader'? Maybe it is because there will be a gay character? The whole
point of the original series was to espouse diversity and half a century
later it still can't happened without people asking 'why'.
Re: Star Trek: Discovery star replies to show's racist critics [message #393989 is a reply to message #393988] Sat, 24 June 2017 22:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
anim8rFSK is currently offline  anim8rFSK
Messages: 215
Registered: July 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
In article <oin7ol$k4s$1@dont-email.me>, Obveeus <Obveeus@aol.com>
wrote:

> On 6/24/2017 5:04 PM, Wouter Valentijn wrote:
>> Op 24-6-2017 om 18:21 schreef Doc O'Leary:
>>> For your reference, records indicate that
>>> Wouter Valentijn <liam@valentijn.nu> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Op 22-6-2017 om 20:47 schreef anim8rfsk:
>>>> >
>>>> > I hate that they're getting well established Trek history wrong -
>>>> > again.
>>>> > Is that racist?
>>>>
>>>> They did not refer to criticism concerning the timeline.
>>>
>>> Maybe, but maybe not. You can’t add new diversity to an established
>>> franchise like Star Trek, especially via retcon, without addressing the
>>> depictions of diversity in the existing story lines. Or without
>>> representing *actual* population distributions in a society. Trek
>>> *used* to smartly address current social issues via allegory. Everything
>>> I read about this new show seems to indicate no such subtlety will exist.
>>> It’s hard to have high expectations for *any* show that is pushing an
>>> agenda that has nothing to do with telling a great story.
>>>
>>
>> So, what's exactly new to a diversity that has established the concept
>> of 'INFINITE Diversity in Infinite Combinations'? I'd say that already
>> covers at least ALL Diversity already. :-)
>>
>> And how would it not represent actual population distributions? Is that
>> only a matter of percentages or a representation of (all) possibilities?
>>
>>
>> This discussion reminds me of a speech made by Joss Whedon in 2006,
>> which was about (strong) women (characters) specifically, but might
>> apply here as well.
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYaczoJMRhs
>>
>>
>> It will cease being an issue the moment the questions on the 'why' cease.
>
> The original series had a black female on the bridge. Also an Asian
> male. Also a Russian male. Also an alien. There was only one good old
> white boy there. Now, the new show has a 'diverse cast' and many people
> here are complaining about it...I guess just because they can't handle
> the word diverse? maybe it is because the good old white boy isn't the
> 'leader'? Maybe it is because there will be a gay character? The whole
> point of the original series was to espouse diversity and half a century
> later it still can't happened without people asking 'why'.

The leader is still the good old white boy. I haven't seen anybody
complaining about diverse (which CBS defines as 'no whites allowed') -
I've just seen STD striking back, claiming that's what people are
complaining about. All the complaints I've seen are about the ugly
ship, terrible FX, idiocy of the now fired but still being paid
showrunner, awful behind the scenes people, marketing scam, er, scheme,
multiple delays, total lack of continuity, and yet another batch of
bloody new Klingons. They aren't defending *that* because none of it's
defensible, so they're making up a fight.

--
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Re: Star Trek: Discovery star replies to show's racist critics [message #393990 is a reply to message #393987] Sun, 25 June 2017 03:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wouter Valentijn is currently offline  Wouter Valentijn
Messages: 228
Registered: December 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Op 25-6-2017 om 03:27 schreef anim8rfsk:
> In article <oimst8$phr$1@dont-email.me>,
> Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>
>> On 6/24/2017 2:44 PM, anim8rfsk wrote:
>>> In article <oimjvf$o5k$3@dont-email.me>,
>>> "Jim G." <jimgysin@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> anim8rfsk sent the following on 06/24/2017 at 03:16 PM:
>>>> > In article <oimd05$n7l$3@dont-email.me>,
>>>> > "Jim G." <jimgysin@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> Doc O'Leary sent the following on 06/24/2017 at 11:21 AM:
>>>> >>> Trek
>>>> >>> *used* to smartly address current social issues via allegory.
>>>> >>> Everything
>>>> >>> I read about this new show seems to indicate no such subtlety will
>>>> >>> exist.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Yep. Most writers -- especially the younger ones -- seem to prefer
>>>> >> anvils these days.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Not only that, but there's this, as well:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> https://www.newsarama.com/35070-star-trek-discovery-to-explo re-space-outs
>>>> >> id
>>>> >> e-r
>>>> >> oddenberry-s-box.html
>>>> >> (or http://tinyurl.com/ycczjbym)
>>>> >>
>>>> >> From the start of the article:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> QUOTE
>>>> >> Star Trek: Discovery will break the longstanding - but somewhat unspoken
>>>> >> - "Roddenberry's Box" rule of the Star Trek universe - a rule laid out
>>>> >> by Star Trek creator Gene Roddenberry which says that members of
>>>> >> Starfleet cannot be shown in deep conflict with each other or portrayed
>>>> >> in too negative a light.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> That rule - that Starfleet members must be ultimately upstanding - has
>>>> >> been stretched a few times in the series' 50 year history, especially in
>>>> >> recent films. But Discovery's showrunners Aaron Harberts and Gretchen J.
>>>> >> Berg say the show will explore conflict between members of Starfleet in
>>>> >> more depth than ever before.
>>>> >> END QUOTE
>>>> >>
>>>> >> So in addition to a lack of subtlety, we can expect a lack of discipline
>>>> >> and an overall attitude of "My opinion WILL be heard because my
>>>> >> self-esteem matters and I have a right to be heard. Even though I'm just
>>>> >> an ensign."
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I also like the "especially in recent films" bit in that quote, which is
>>>> >> a kind way of pointing out one of the many ways that Team Abrams has
>>>> >> *already* damaged this franchise.
>>>> >
>>>> > racist
>>>>
>>>> Heh. No, Abrams did his damage in the discipline and dumbing-down
>>>> departments. This latest fustercluck seems committed to doing its damage
>>>> in the "diversity" and "passion" departments. Honestly, I wonder if J.J.
>>>> is paying these idiots to provide a new target for the anger and
>>>> hostility of Trek purists. All I know is that each time someone new
>>>> comes along to "improve" Trek for a more "inclusive" audience, the worse
>>>> the show gets.
>>>
>>> But don't you think this whole thing is staging, so that they can cry
>>> 'racist' to *any* complaint about Star Trek STD?


Not every complaint is racist. They only referred to the actual racist
complaints.

Discovery has plenty of other issues.


>>>
>> Which is why I hate this "diverse" BS. I have no problem with having
>> various combinations of skin tones and both sexes filling roles. What I
>> do have a problem with is the scream-it-in-my-face "See how diverse we
>> are" to justify that they ARE being deliberately racist. It doesn't
>> matter _what_ group you are treating unequally, treating _any_ group
>> unequally is racist.
>
> Which is why I won't watch CBASS, who define 'diverse' as 'non-white'
>

So, there are no 'white' characters on Discovery?
Well, we'll see it this fall I guess. :-)

--
Wouter Valentijn www.j3v.net

"Be yourself no matter what they say"

Sting ("Englishman in New York")

liam=mail
Re: Star Trek: Discovery star replies to show's racist critics [message #393994 is a reply to message #393988] Sun, 25 June 2017 08:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lance Corporal Hammer is currently offline  Lance Corporal Hammer
Messages: 35
Registered: July 2012
Karma: 0
Member
On Sat, 24 Jun 2017 22:43:02 -0400, Obveeus wrote:

> Now, the new show has a 'diverse cast' and many people
> here are complaining about it...I guess just because they can't handle
> the word diverse?

Maybe it's because they are using Trek as a vehicle for their agenda
instead of looking to make an interesting show to watch. All Trek
series had their stupid social agendas in there somewhere (The
Outcast, anyone?) but original Trek was sold as "wagon train to the
stars," not "Hey look, we care about diversity, no straight white guys
in the main cast!"

--
Hammer
Re: Star Trek: Discovery star replies to show's racist critics [message #393995 is a reply to message #393990] Sun, 25 June 2017 12:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
anim8rFSK is currently offline  anim8rFSK
Messages: 215
Registered: July 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
In article <594f6a7e$0$739$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>,
Wouter Valentijn <liam@valentijn.nu> wrote:

> Op 25-6-2017 om 03:27 schreef anim8rfsk:
>> In article <oimst8$phr$1@dont-email.me>,
>> Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 6/24/2017 2:44 PM, anim8rfsk wrote:
>>>> In article <oimjvf$o5k$3@dont-email.me>,
>>>> "Jim G." <jimgysin@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > anim8rfsk sent the following on 06/24/2017 at 03:16 PM:
>>>> >> In article <oimd05$n7l$3@dont-email.me>,
>>>> >> "Jim G." <jimgysin@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> Doc O'Leary sent the following on 06/24/2017 at 11:21 AM:
>>>> >>>> Trek
>>>> >>>> *used* to smartly address current social issues via allegory.
>>>> >>>> Everything
>>>> >>>> I read about this new show seems to indicate no such subtlety will
>>>> >>>> exist.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Yep. Most writers -- especially the younger ones -- seem to prefer
>>>> >>> anvils these days.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Not only that, but there's this, as well:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> https://www.newsarama.com/35070-star-trek-discovery-to-explo re-space-ou
>>>> >>> ts
>>>> >>> id
>>>> >>> e-r
>>>> >>> oddenberry-s-box.html
>>>> >>> (or http://tinyurl.com/ycczjbym)
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> From the start of the article:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> QUOTE
>>>> >>> Star Trek: Discovery will break the longstanding - but somewhat
>>>> >>> unspoken
>>>> >>> - "Roddenberry's Box" rule of the Star Trek universe - a rule laid out
>>>> >>> by Star Trek creator Gene Roddenberry which says that members of
>>>> >>> Starfleet cannot be shown in deep conflict with each other or
>>>> >>> portrayed
>>>> >>> in too negative a light.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> That rule - that Starfleet members must be ultimately upstanding - has
>>>> >>> been stretched a few times in the series' 50 year history, especially
>>>> >>> in
>>>> >>> recent films. But Discovery's showrunners Aaron Harberts and Gretchen
>>>> >>> J.
>>>> >>> Berg say the show will explore conflict between members of Starfleet
>>>> >>> in
>>>> >>> more depth than ever before.
>>>> >>> END QUOTE
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> So in addition to a lack of subtlety, we can expect a lack of
>>>> >>> discipline
>>>> >>> and an overall attitude of "My opinion WILL be heard because my
>>>> >>> self-esteem matters and I have a right to be heard. Even though I'm
>>>> >>> just
>>>> >>> an ensign."
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> I also like the "especially in recent films" bit in that quote, which
>>>> >>> is
>>>> >>> a kind way of pointing out one of the many ways that Team Abrams has
>>>> >>> *already* damaged this franchise.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> racist
>>>> >
>>>> > Heh. No, Abrams did his damage in the discipline and dumbing-down
>>>> > departments. This latest fustercluck seems committed to doing its damage
>>>> > in the "diversity" and "passion" departments. Honestly, I wonder if J.J.
>>>> > is paying these idiots to provide a new target for the anger and
>>>> > hostility of Trek purists. All I know is that each time someone new
>>>> > comes along to "improve" Trek for a more "inclusive" audience, the worse
>>>> > the show gets.
>>>>
>>>> But don't you think this whole thing is staging, so that they can cry
>>>> 'racist' to *any* complaint about Star Trek STD?
>
>
> Not every complaint is racist. They only referred to the actual racist
> complaints.
>
> Discovery has plenty of other issues.
>
>
>>>>
>>> Which is why I hate this "diverse" BS. I have no problem with having
>>> various combinations of skin tones and both sexes filling roles. What I
>>> do have a problem with is the scream-it-in-my-face "See how diverse we
>>> are" to justify that they ARE being deliberately racist. It doesn't
>>> matter _what_ group you are treating unequally, treating _any_ group
>>> unequally is racist.
>>
>> Which is why I won't watch CBASS, who define 'diverse' as 'non-white'
>>
>
> So, there are no 'white' characters on Discovery?
> Well, we'll see it this fall I guess. :-)

I'm not saying that. I'm saying that's how CBASS uses the term, because
A) they're deeply stupid and 2) they're racist.

And 'we' won't see this fall - I'm not going near this crapfest. I'm
especially not *paying* for it.

They'd have to cameo The Shat to get me to bootleg it.

--
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Re: Star Trek: Discovery star replies to show's racist critics [message #393996 is a reply to message #393995] Sun, 25 June 2017 12:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wouter Valentijn is currently offline  Wouter Valentijn
Messages: 228
Registered: December 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Op 25-6-2017 om 18:28 schreef anim8rfsk:
> In article <594f6a7e$0$739$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>,
> Wouter Valentijn <liam@valentijn.nu> wrote:


<snip>

>>>
>>> Which is why I won't watch CBASS, who define 'diverse' as 'non-white'
>>>
>>
>> So, there are no 'white' characters on Discovery?
>> Well, we'll see it this fall I guess. :-)
>
> I'm not saying that. I'm saying that's how CBASS uses the term, because
> A) they're deeply stupid and 2) they're racist.
>
> And 'we' won't see this fall - I'm not going near this crapfest. I'm
> especially not *paying* for it.

I already have Netflix (NL edition). In recent months they've gained
every Trek TV show, including TAS, and Discovery will be part of that
line up.

>
> They'd have to cameo The Shat to get me to bootleg it.
>

LOL


--
Wouter Valentijn www.j3v.net

"Be yourself no matter what they say"

Sting ("Englishman in New York")

liam=mail
Re: Star Trek: Discovery star replies to show's racist critics [message #393997 is a reply to message #393996] Sun, 25 June 2017 13:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
anim8rFSK is currently offline  anim8rFSK
Messages: 215
Registered: July 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
In article <594feb74$0$731$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>,
Wouter Valentijn <liam@valentijn.nu> wrote:

> Op 25-6-2017 om 18:28 schreef anim8rfsk:
>> In article <594f6a7e$0$739$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>,
>> Wouter Valentijn <liam@valentijn.nu> wrote:
>
>
> <snip>
>
>>>>
>>>> Which is why I won't watch CBASS, who define 'diverse' as 'non-white'
>>>>
>>>
>>> So, there are no 'white' characters on Discovery?
>>> Well, we'll see it this fall I guess. :-)
>>
>> I'm not saying that. I'm saying that's how CBASS uses the term, because
>> A) they're deeply stupid and 2) they're racist.
>>
>> And 'we' won't see this fall - I'm not going near this crapfest. I'm
>> especially not *paying* for it.
>
> I already have Netflix (NL edition). In recent months they've gained
> every Trek TV show, including TAS, and Discovery will be part of that
> line up.

In America, you have to pay for a new service, CBS Access, to see Trek
and then limited reruns of other stuff, and it still has freaking
commercials unless you pay again for a higher level of service!

>>
>> They'd have to cameo The Shat to get me to bootleg it.
>>
>
> LOL

:)

--
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Re: Star Trek: Discovery star replies to show's racist critics [message #393998 is a reply to message #393982] Sun, 25 June 2017 16:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Doc O'Leary

For your reference, records indicate that
Wouter Valentijn <liam@valentijn.nu> wrote:

> So, what's exactly new to a diversity that has established the concept
> of 'INFINITE Diversity in Infinite Combinations'? I'd say that already
> covers at least ALL Diversity already. :-)

We need to bring in the comic book geeks to school us all on just how
bad an idea it is to have Infinite Earths. I’ll just take the
opportunity to relay a quote I recently read:

“Civilization is the process of reducing the infinite to the finite.”
Oliver Wendell Holmes

Star Trek was *not* about “infinite” anything. It was/is a creation to
show a particular future for human society. As I said, when they
wanted to cover something with any amount of controversy in our daily
lives, the did it best when they did it through the “strange new
worlds” that they found on their voyages.

> And how would it not represent actual population distributions? Is that
> only a matter of percentages or a representation of (all) possibilities?

Again, it’s about *how* the representation is presented, and *especially*
how it reflects the representation already established for the Trek
universe. If the Star Fleet of Kirk’s day wasn’t 90% trans (or whatever
the new Trek is pushing), the writers have the burden of demonstrating a
realistic way to get from whatever they’re depicting as 10 years prior to
the Trek we already know.

I’m not saying it can’t be done, but it is a *heavy* burden to taken on
above and beyond having to tell good stories that are *independent* of
whatever diversity agenda they’re pursuing. That’s why older Trek
(including TNG) was so great. The diversity was just *there*; who was
what wasn’t a part of the story unless it made *sense* to make it part
of the story. I don’t recall anyone putting out press releases patting
themselves on the back for making a Chief Engineer black, or blind!

These days, things appear to be tending more towards “fan service” (in
all its forms), and I think that’s a shame. The problem is not *that*
diversity is pushed, but that it is pushed in places where it makes no
sense to push it. True Trek fans didn’t stop watching when they put
different races or genders (or whatever) on the screen, but I certainly
*did* decide to tune out when (among other things) they started going
the route of base fan service when it came to putting *just* their hot
female characters on the screen (like 7 of 9’s outfit or T’Pol’s (along
with that whole “decontamination” setup)). As much as I liked the T&A,
I can easily find that kind of softcore action online, and it just was
out of place for the particular stories they were telling in the Trek
universe.

> This discussion reminds me of a speech made by Joss Whedon in 2006,
> which was about (strong) women (characters) specifically, but might
> apply here as well.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYaczoJMRhs
>
>
> It will cease being an issue the moment the questions on the 'why' cease.

The distinction I’d highlight is the one of “strong ______ characters”.
I quote one of Whedon’s great female ones in my .sig, but to me it’s not
about what is filling in that blank. Fill it in with anything you’d
like and I’m likely going to be onboard, *if and only if* you don’t make
the focus about that agenda *more* than the strength of the characters
or the stories that are being told. Like softcore porn, I can find
unnuanced depictions of racial/gender/whatever issues online or in the
news or on Reality TV shows. There is no need to keep torpedoing the
Trek universe with the sort of ham-handed approach I’m seeing taken
with these newer shows.

--
"Also . . . I can kill you with my brain."
River Tam, Trash, Firefly
Re: Star Trek: Discovery star replies to show's racist critics [message #393999 is a reply to message #393988] Sun, 25 June 2017 16:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Doc O'Leary

For your reference, records indicate that
Obveeus <Obveeus@aol.com> wrote:

> The original series had a black female on the bridge. Also an Asian
> male. Also a Russian male. Also an alien. There was only one good old
> white boy there. Now, the new show has a 'diverse cast' and many people
> here are complaining about it...I guess just because they can't handle
> the word diverse? maybe it is because the good old white boy isn't the
> 'leader'? Maybe it is because there will be a gay character? The whole
> point of the original series was to espouse diversity and half a century
> later it still can't happened without people asking 'why'.

No, the question some of us are asking is simply: *How* does this make
sense in the Star Trek universe? I’m not being sold on an interesting
new addition to the franchise, I’m being sold on an unrelated agenda
*that I’ve already purchased in my present day reality*. I mean, hell,
I worked jobs 15 years ago with more gay people than have ever gotten
major screen time on a Trek show. I never really cared for one damn
second about their “diversity”, I just cared that they were doing an
awesome job. It remains to be seen (by those who are going to bother
to pay to see it) whether or not this new Trek is anywhere close to
watchable, or if it is just another retread of an agenda that could
have actually been *better* done as a cheaper Reality TV show.

--
"Also . . . I can kill you with my brain."
River Tam, Trash, Firefly
Re: Star Trek: Discovery star replies to show's racist critics [message #394000 is a reply to message #393922] Sun, 25 June 2017 18:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ubiquitous is currently offline  Ubiquitous
Messages: 77
Registered: July 2012
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Member
anim8rfsk@cox.net wrote:
> Ubiquitous <weberm@polaris.net> wrote:
>> anim8rfsk@cox.net wrote:
>>> Obveeus <Obveeus@aol.com> wrote:
>>>> On 6/22/2017 5:20 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>>> > On 6/22/2017 1:37 PM, Rhino wrote:
>>>> >> On 2017-06-22 3:40 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>>> >>> On 6/22/2017 11:47 AM, anim8rfsk wrote:
>>>> >>>> Wouter Valentijn <liam@valentijn.nu> wrote:
>>>> >>>>> Op 22-6-2017 om 14:35 schreef Ubiquitous:

>>>> >>>>>> Sonequa Martin-Green torpedos the trolls as the first
�iscovery¹
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Good article. Sonequa and George nailed it!
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Well, no, not really.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> I hate the ship design. Is that racist?
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> I hate that they're getting well established Trek history wrong -
>>>> >>>> again.
>>>> >>>> Is that racist?
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> I hate the creatives that I've heard of - is that racist?
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> I hate CBS because THEY are racist.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> You don't even have to *know* the cast to hate this show. Is that
>>>> >>>> racist?
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>> If anyone who is in any way racist has heard of the show, then yes
>>>> >>> all dislike of the show is racist. I thought you knew that by now.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >> I'm curious to know if there is even one heterosexual white male in
>>>> >> the cast or does their vision of "diversity" exclude heterosexual
>>>> >> white males altogether because, you know, its 2017?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I wonder if they'll "throw us a bone" in the form of a single white
>>>> >> guy who has a really low-prestige job, just so that no one can
>>>> >> complain that we've been completely excluded?
>>>> >>
>>>> > Since the whole point of a diverse cast is to punish the hetero white
>>>> > male and a show that is made up of characters who are all from one
>>>> > non-Caucasian ethnic group is considered diverse, no there were never
>>>> > any hetero white males in Star Fleet in the new timeline.
>>>> >
>>>> > Especially not Kirk.
>>>>
>>>> Has he even joined Star Fleet yet at the time of this new series?
>>>
>>> Probably.
>>>
>>> They keep saying this takes place 10 years before Kirk. Assuming they
>>> mean '10 years before Kirk took over the Enterprise' or '10 years before
>>> the first episode of TOS' then, yes, he was in Starfleet - OBSESSION's
>>> flashbacks take place 11 years before season 2,
>>
>> According to Wikipedia, "Star Trek: Discovery" begins in 2254 and 2264 was
>> when Kirk took command of the Enterprise.
>
> Stupid retcon TNG dating.

They changed it?

--
Dems & the media want Trump to be more like Obama, but then he'd
have to audit liberals & wire tap reporters' phones.
Re: Star Trek: Discovery star replies to show's racist critics [message #394001 is a reply to message #394000] Sun, 25 June 2017 18:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
anim8rFSK is currently offline  anim8rFSK
Messages: 215
Registered: July 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
In article <s66dnVchnoHTs83EnZ2dnUU7-KudnZ2d@giganews.com>,
Ubiquitous <weberm@polaris.net> wrote:

> anim8rfsk@cox.net wrote:
>> Ubiquitous <weberm@polaris.net> wrote:
>>> anim8rfsk@cox.net wrote:
>>>> Obveeus <Obveeus@aol.com> wrote:
>>>> > On 6/22/2017 5:20 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>>> > > On 6/22/2017 1:37 PM, Rhino wrote:
>>>> > >> On 2017-06-22 3:40 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>>> > >>> On 6/22/2017 11:47 AM, anim8rfsk wrote:
>>>> > >>>> Wouter Valentijn <liam@valentijn.nu> wrote:
>>>> > >>>>> Op 22-6-2017 om 14:35 schreef Ubiquitous:
>
>>>> > >>>>>> Sonequa Martin-Green torpedos the trolls as the first
> �iscovery¹
>>>> > >>>>>
>>>> > >>>>> Good article. Sonequa and George nailed it!
>>>> > >>>>
>>>> > >>>> Well, no, not really.
>>>> > >>>>
>>>> > >>>> I hate the ship design. Is that racist?
>>>> > >>>>
>>>> > >>>> I hate that they're getting well established Trek history wrong -
>>>> > >>>> again.
>>>> > >>>> Is that racist?
>>>> > >>>>
>>>> > >>>> I hate the creatives that I've heard of - is that racist?
>>>> > >>>>
>>>> > >>>> I hate CBS because THEY are racist.
>>>> > >>>>
>>>> > >>>> You don't even have to *know* the cast to hate this show. Is that
>>>> > >>>> racist?
>>>> > >>>>
>>>> > >>> If anyone who is in any way racist has heard of the show, then yes
>>>> > >>> all dislike of the show is racist. I thought you knew that by now.
>>>> > >>>
>>>> > >> I'm curious to know if there is even one heterosexual white male in
>>>> > >> the cast or does their vision of "diversity" exclude heterosexual
>>>> > >> white males altogether because, you know, its 2017?
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> I wonder if they'll "throw us a bone" in the form of a single white
>>>> > >> guy who has a really low-prestige job, just so that no one can
>>>> > >> complain that we've been completely excluded?
>>>> > >>
>>>> > > Since the whole point of a diverse cast is to punish the hetero white
>>>> > > male and a show that is made up of characters who are all from one
>>>> > > non-Caucasian ethnic group is considered diverse, no there were never
>>>> > > any hetero white males in Star Fleet in the new timeline.
>>>> > >
>>>> > > Especially not Kirk.
>>>> >
>>>> > Has he even joined Star Fleet yet at the time of this new series?
>>>>
>>>> Probably.
>>>>
>>>> They keep saying this takes place 10 years before Kirk. Assuming they
>>>> mean '10 years before Kirk took over the Enterprise' or '10 years before
>>>> the first episode of TOS' then, yes, he was in Starfleet - OBSESSION's
>>>> flashbacks take place 11 years before season 2,
>>>
>>> According to Wikipedia, "Star Trek: Discovery" begins in 2254 and 2264 was
>>> when Kirk took command of the Enterprise.
>>
>> Stupid retcon TNG dating.
>
> They changed it?

Yeah, Data got it wrong, and they decided to change all of real Trek and
a year of TNG to match.

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Re: Star Trek: Discovery star replies to show's racist critics [message #394002 is a reply to message #393984] Mon, 26 June 2017 13:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jim G. is currently offline  Jim G.
Messages: 52
Registered: August 2011
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Member
anim8rfsk sent the following on 06/24/2017 at 04:44 PM:
> In article <oimjvf$o5k$3@dont-email.me>,
> "Jim G." <jimgysin@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>> anim8rfsk sent the following on 06/24/2017 at 03:16 PM:
>>> In article <oimd05$n7l$3@dont-email.me>,
>>> "Jim G." <jimgysin@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Doc O'Leary sent the following on 06/24/2017 at 11:21 AM:
>>>> > Trek
>>>> > *used* to smartly address current social issues via allegory.
>>>> > Everything
>>>> > I read about this new show seems to indicate no such subtlety will exist.
>>>>
>>>> Yep. Most writers -- especially the younger ones -- seem to prefer
>>>> anvils these days.
>>>>
>>>> Not only that, but there's this, as well:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.newsarama.com/35070-star-trek-discovery-to-explo re-space-outsid
>>>> e-r
>>>> oddenberry-s-box.html
>>>> (or http://tinyurl.com/ycczjbym)
>>>>
>>>> From the start of the article:
>>>>
>>>> QUOTE
>>>> Star Trek: Discovery will break the longstanding - but somewhat unspoken
>>>> - "Roddenberry's Box" rule of the Star Trek universe - a rule laid out
>>>> by Star Trek creator Gene Roddenberry which says that members of
>>>> Starfleet cannot be shown in deep conflict with each other or portrayed
>>>> in too negative a light.
>>>>
>>>> That rule - that Starfleet members must be ultimately upstanding - has
>>>> been stretched a few times in the series' 50 year history, especially in
>>>> recent films. But Discovery's showrunners Aaron Harberts and Gretchen J.
>>>> Berg say the show will explore conflict between members of Starfleet in
>>>> more depth than ever before.
>>>> END QUOTE
>>>>
>>>> So in addition to a lack of subtlety, we can expect a lack of discipline
>>>> and an overall attitude of "My opinion WILL be heard because my
>>>> self-esteem matters and I have a right to be heard. Even though I'm just
>>>> an ensign."
>>>>
>>>> I also like the "especially in recent films" bit in that quote, which is
>>>> a kind way of pointing out one of the many ways that Team Abrams has
>>>> *already* damaged this franchise.
>>>
>>> racist
>>
>> Heh. No, Abrams did his damage in the discipline and dumbing-down
>> departments. This latest fustercluck seems committed to doing its damage
>> in the "diversity" and "passion" departments. Honestly, I wonder if J.J.
>> is paying these idiots to provide a new target for the anger and
>> hostility of Trek purists. All I know is that each time someone new
>> comes along to "improve" Trek for a more "inclusive" audience, the worse
>> the show gets.
>
> But don't you think this whole thing is staging, so that they can cry
> 'racist' to *any* complaint about Star Trek STD?

Are the people behind this thing competent or clever enough to pull off
something like that? Because they're clearly not competent or clever
enough to pull off a good Trek prequel. (I just saw a photo of a
transporter room, and these people are consistent, if nothing else.)

--
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“This is where you end up when your parents don't tell you they love
you.” – Clive Babineaux, iZOMBIE
Re: Star Trek: Discovery star replies to show's racist critics [message #394003 is a reply to message #393969] Mon, 26 June 2017 13:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ubiquitous is currently offline  Ubiquitous
Messages: 77
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anim8rfsk@cox.net wrote:
> Wouter Valentijn <liam@valentijn.nu> wrote:
>> Op 23-6-2017 om 20:21 schreef anim8rfsk:
>>> Wouter Valentijn <liam@valentijn.nu> wrote:
>>>> Op 23-6-2017 om 13:31 schreef anim8rfsk:

>>>> >>> They keep saying this takes place 10 years before Kirk. Assuming they
>>>> >>> mean '10 years before Kirk took over the Enterprise' or '10 years before
>>>> >>> the first episode of TOS' then, yes, he was in Starfleet - OBSESSION's
>>>> >>> flashbacks take place 11 years before season 2,
>>>> >>
>>>> >> According to Wikipedia, "Star Trek: Discovery" begins in 2254 and 2264 was
>>>> >> when Kirk took command of the Enterprise.
>>>> >
>>>> > Stupid retcon TNG dating.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, that was an error. But sadly now the case for most of the Prime
>>>> Timeline.
>>>
>>> :(
>>>
>>
>> Funny thing is, in 'Encounter at Farpoint', Data says he graduated from
>> Starfleet in '78.... Which would place that in I think 2278. 2378 would
>> be really silly in the light of 2364 mentioned by Geordi in a later episode.
>>
>> If 2278 is true, for that episode, than I think that their first inkling
>> was to set TNG around 2300.
>>
>> I have somewhere in my collection (I don't remember the exact title) a
>> guide to the history of ships named 'Enterprise', with a timeline that
>> shifts the now 'official' timeline some 60 years into the past. Which
>> better suits what was going on in TOS.
>>
>> And if I'm not mistaken the text on the cover of the TMP novel states
>> that it is set at the beginning of the 23d century. (the German language
>> version of Star Trek (TOS) (Raumschiff Enterprise) says it is in the
>> year 2200).
>>
>> So, sadly there was a shift of over half a century.
>
> TNG was originally in the first year (or years) of the 24th Century, so
> call it 2301. It was also 78 years after real Trek, so call real Trek
> 2223 (we don't know *where* in real Trek, so there's some leeway). Mr.
> Scott's Guide to the Enterprise put TMP in 2222 (IIRC). All of that
> worked just fine. Then at the end of TNG's first season, Data tells the
> guys from the past that it's "By your calendar two thousand three
> hundred sixty four." and they decided that rather than admit Data (or
> credited writers Maurice Hurley and/or Deborah McIntyre and/or Mona
> Clee*) got it wrong they've been retconning ever since.

I was not aware of that, but they could have used the "by your calendar" as an escape.

--
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Re: Star Trek: Discovery star replies to show's racist critics [message #394005 is a reply to message #394003] Mon, 26 June 2017 13:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
anim8rFSK is currently offline  anim8rFSK
Messages: 215
Registered: July 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
In article <oirf1d$9ev$1@dont-email.me>,
Ubiquitous <weberm@polaris.net> wrote:

> anim8rfsk@cox.net wrote:
>> Wouter Valentijn <liam@valentijn.nu> wrote:
>>> Op 23-6-2017 om 20:21 schreef anim8rfsk:
>>>> Wouter Valentijn <liam@valentijn.nu> wrote:
>>>> > Op 23-6-2017 om 13:31 schreef anim8rfsk:
>
>>>> >>>> They keep saying this takes place 10 years before Kirk. Assuming
>>>> >>>> they
>>>> >>>> mean '10 years before Kirk took over the Enterprise' or '10 years
>>>> >>>> before
>>>> >>>> the first episode of TOS' then, yes, he was in Starfleet -
>>>> >>>> OBSESSION's
>>>> >>>> flashbacks take place 11 years before season 2,
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> According to Wikipedia, "Star Trek: Discovery" begins in 2254 and
>>>> >>> 2264 was
>>>> >>> when Kirk took command of the Enterprise.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Stupid retcon TNG dating.
>>>> >
>>>> > Yes, that was an error. But sadly now the case for most of the Prime
>>>> > Timeline.
>>>>
>>>> :(
>>>>
>>>
>>> Funny thing is, in 'Encounter at Farpoint', Data says he graduated from
>>> Starfleet in '78.... Which would place that in I think 2278. 2378 would
>>> be really silly in the light of 2364 mentioned by Geordi in a later
>>> episode.
>>>
>>> If 2278 is true, for that episode, than I think that their first inkling
>>> was to set TNG around 2300.
>>>
>>> I have somewhere in my collection (I don't remember the exact title) a
>>> guide to the history of ships named 'Enterprise', with a timeline that
>>> shifts the now 'official' timeline some 60 years into the past. Which
>>> better suits what was going on in TOS.
>>>
>>> And if I'm not mistaken the text on the cover of the TMP novel states
>>> that it is set at the beginning of the 23d century. (the German language
>>> version of Star Trek (TOS) (Raumschiff Enterprise) says it is in the
>>> year 2200).
>>>
>>> So, sadly there was a shift of over half a century.
>>
>> TNG was originally in the first year (or years) of the 24th Century, so
>> call it 2301. It was also 78 years after real Trek, so call real Trek
>> 2223 (we don't know *where* in real Trek, so there's some leeway). Mr.
>> Scott's Guide to the Enterprise put TMP in 2222 (IIRC). All of that
>> worked just fine. Then at the end of TNG's first season, Data tells the
>> guys from the past that it's "By your calendar two thousand three
>> hundred sixty four." and they decided that rather than admit Data (or
>> credited writers Maurice Hurley and/or Deborah McIntyre and/or Mona
>> Clee*) got it wrong they've been retconning ever since.
>
> I was not aware of that, but they could have used the "by your calendar" as
> an escape.

But they're too stupid.

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Re: Star Trek: Discovery star replies to show's racist critics [message #394006 is a reply to message #394002] Mon, 26 June 2017 13:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
anim8rFSK is currently offline  anim8rFSK
Messages: 215
Registered: July 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
In article <oiregd$9tl$2@dont-email.me>,
"Jim G." <jimgysin@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:

> anim8rfsk sent the following on 06/24/2017 at 04:44 PM:
>> In article <oimjvf$o5k$3@dont-email.me>,
>> "Jim G." <jimgysin@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> anim8rfsk sent the following on 06/24/2017 at 03:16 PM:
>>>> In article <oimd05$n7l$3@dont-email.me>,
>>>> "Jim G." <jimgysin@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > Doc O'Leary sent the following on 06/24/2017 at 11:21 AM:
>>>> >> Trek
>>>> >> *used* to smartly address current social issues via allegory.
>>>> >> Everything
>>>> >> I read about this new show seems to indicate no such subtlety will
>>>> >> exist.
>>>> >
>>>> > Yep. Most writers -- especially the younger ones -- seem to prefer
>>>> > anvils these days.
>>>> >
>>>> > Not only that, but there's this, as well:
>>>> >
>>>> > https://www.newsarama.com/35070-star-trek-discovery-to-explo re-space-outs
>>>> > id
>>>> > e-r
>>>> > oddenberry-s-box.html
>>>> > (or http://tinyurl.com/ycczjbym)
>>>> >
>>>> > From the start of the article:
>>>> >
>>>> > QUOTE
>>>> > Star Trek: Discovery will break the longstanding - but somewhat unspoken
>>>> > - "Roddenberry's Box" rule of the Star Trek universe - a rule laid out
>>>> > by Star Trek creator Gene Roddenberry which says that members of
>>>> > Starfleet cannot be shown in deep conflict with each other or portrayed
>>>> > in too negative a light.
>>>> >
>>>> > That rule - that Starfleet members must be ultimately upstanding - has
>>>> > been stretched a few times in the series' 50 year history, especially in
>>>> > recent films. But Discovery's showrunners Aaron Harberts and Gretchen J.
>>>> > Berg say the show will explore conflict between members of Starfleet in
>>>> > more depth than ever before.
>>>> > END QUOTE
>>>> >
>>>> > So in addition to a lack of subtlety, we can expect a lack of discipline
>>>> > and an overall attitude of "My opinion WILL be heard because my
>>>> > self-esteem matters and I have a right to be heard. Even though I'm just
>>>> > an ensign."
>>>> >
>>>> > I also like the "especially in recent films" bit in that quote, which is
>>>> > a kind way of pointing out one of the many ways that Team Abrams has
>>>> > *already* damaged this franchise.
>>>>
>>>> racist
>>>
>>> Heh. No, Abrams did his damage in the discipline and dumbing-down
>>> departments. This latest fustercluck seems committed to doing its damage
>>> in the "diversity" and "passion" departments. Honestly, I wonder if J.J.
>>> is paying these idiots to provide a new target for the anger and
>>> hostility of Trek purists. All I know is that each time someone new
>>> comes along to "improve" Trek for a more "inclusive" audience, the worse
>>> the show gets.
>>
>> But don't you think this whole thing is staging, so that they can cry
>> 'racist' to *any* complaint about Star Trek STD?
>
> Are the people behind this thing competent or clever enough to pull off
> something like that? Because they're clearly not competent or clever
> enough to pull off a good Trek prequel. (I just saw a photo of a
> transporter room, and these people are consistent, if nothing else.)

I saw that that was out there and didn't even bother to look at it. How
badly does *that* bode?

Bear in mind that this is set in exactly the same year as THE CAGE, so
we *know* what stuff should look like.

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Re: Star Trek: Discovery star replies to show's racist critics [message #394007 is a reply to message #393971] Mon, 26 June 2017 13:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ubiquitous is currently offline  Ubiquitous
Messages: 77
Registered: July 2012
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Member
starfist@gmail.invalid wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Jun 2017 08:35:28 -0400, Ubiquitous wrote:

>> Sonequa Martin-Green torpedos the trolls
>
> Hardly.
>
> I wonder if the reason women are forbidden to command a starship in
> Krik's era has anything to do with the disaster that is brewing for
> this series.

Didn't we learn anything from Voyager?

--
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Re: Star Trek: Discovery star replies to show's racist critics [message #394008 is a reply to message #393974] Mon, 26 June 2017 13:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ubiquitous is currently offline  Ubiquitous
Messages: 77
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Member
droleary@2017usenet1.subsume.com wrote:
> For your reference, records indicate that
> Wouter Valentijn <liam@valentijn.nu> wrote:
>> Op 22-6-2017 om 20:47 schreef anim8rfsk:

>>> I hate that they're getting well established Trek history wrong - again.
>>> Is that racist?
>>
>> They did not refer to criticism concerning the timeline.
>
> Maybe, but maybe not. You can’t add new diversity to an established
> franchise like Star Trek, especially via retcon, without addressing the
> depictions of diversity in the existing story lines. Or without
> representing *actual* population distributions in a society. Trek
> *used* to smartly address current social issues via allegory. Everything
> I read about this new show seems to indicate no such subtlety will exist.
> It's hard to have high expectations for *any* show that is pushing an
> agenda that has nothing to do with telling a great story.

I don't think writers know how to be subtle any more.

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Re: Star Trek: Discovery star replies to show's racist critics [message #394009 is a reply to message #393997] Mon, 26 June 2017 13:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wouter Valentijn is currently offline  Wouter Valentijn
Messages: 228
Registered: December 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Op 25-6-2017 om 19:36 schreef anim8rfsk:
> In article <594feb74$0$731$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>,
> Wouter Valentijn <liam@valentijn.nu> wrote:
>
>> Op 25-6-2017 om 18:28 schreef anim8rfsk:
>>> In article <594f6a7e$0$739$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>,
>>> Wouter Valentijn <liam@valentijn.nu> wrote:
>>
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>>> >
>>>> > Which is why I won't watch CBASS, who define 'diverse' as 'non-white'
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> So, there are no 'white' characters on Discovery?
>>>> Well, we'll see it this fall I guess. :-)
>>>
>>> I'm not saying that. I'm saying that's how CBASS uses the term, because
>>> A) they're deeply stupid and 2) they're racist.
>>>
>>> And 'we' won't see this fall - I'm not going near this crapfest. I'm
>>> especially not *paying* for it.
>>
>> I already have Netflix (NL edition). In recent months they've gained
>> every Trek TV show, including TAS, and Discovery will be part of that
>> line up.
>
> In America, you have to pay for a new service, CBS Access, to see Trek
> and then limited reruns of other stuff, and it still has freaking
> commercials unless you pay again for a higher level of service!

Still commercials? :-(




--
Wouter Valentijn www.j3v.net

"Be yourself no matter what they say"

Sting ("Englishman in New York")

liam=mail
Re: Star Trek: Discovery star replies to show's racist critics [message #394010 is a reply to message #393976] Mon, 26 June 2017 13:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ubiquitous is currently offline  Ubiquitous
Messages: 77
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Member
In article <oimfgv$uf8$1@dont-email.me>, dtravel@sonic.net wrote:
> On 6/24/2017 12:06 PM, Jim G. wrote:

>> Yep. Most writers -- especially the younger ones -- seem to prefer
>> anvils these days.
>>
>> Not only that, but there's this, as well:
>>
>> https://www.newsarama.com/35070-star-trek-discovery-to-explo re-space-outside-roddenberry-s-box.html
>>
>> (or http://tinyurl.com/ycczjbym)
>>
>> From the start of the article:
>>
>> Star Trek: Discovery will break the longstanding - but somewhat
>> unspoken - "Roddenberry's Box" rule of the Star Trek universe - a
>> rule laid out by Star Trek creator Gene Roddenberry which says
>> that members of Starfleet cannot be shown in deep conflict with
>> each other or portrayed in too negative a light.
>>
>> That rule - that Starfleet members must be ultimately upstanding - has
>> been stretched a few times in the series' 50 year history, especially
>> in recent films. But Discovery's showrunners Aaron Harberts and
>> Gretchen J. Berg say the show will explore conflict between members
>> of Starfleet in more depth than ever before.
>>
>> So in addition to a lack of subtlety, we can expect a lack of discipline
>> and an overall attitude of "My opinion WILL be heard because my
>> self-esteem matters and I have a right to be heard. Even though I'm just
>> an ensign."
>>
>> I also like the "especially in recent films" bit in that quote, which is
>> a kind way of pointing out one of the many ways that Team Abrams has
>> *already* damaged this franchise.
>>
> Don't tempt me to post my review of Star Dreck again where I point out
> that the crew of Abrahm's Enterprise had less discipline than a Somali
> pirate boat.

Please feel free to do it. :-)

--
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Re: Star Trek: Discovery star replies to show's racist critics [message #394011 is a reply to message #394006] Mon, 26 June 2017 13:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wouter Valentijn is currently offline  Wouter Valentijn
Messages: 228
Registered: December 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Op 26-6-2017 om 19:22 schreef anim8rfsk:
> In article <oiregd$9tl$2@dont-email.me>,
> "Jim G." <jimgysin@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>> anim8rfsk sent the following on 06/24/2017 at 04:44 PM:
>>> In article <oimjvf$o5k$3@dont-email.me>,
>>> "Jim G." <jimgysin@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> anim8rfsk sent the following on 06/24/2017 at 03:16 PM:
>>>> > In article <oimd05$n7l$3@dont-email.me>,
>>>> > "Jim G." <jimgysin@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> Doc O'Leary sent the following on 06/24/2017 at 11:21 AM:
>>>> >>> Trek
>>>> >>> *used* to smartly address current social issues via allegory.
>>>> >>> Everything
>>>> >>> I read about this new show seems to indicate no such subtlety will
>>>> >>> exist.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Yep. Most writers -- especially the younger ones -- seem to prefer
>>>> >> anvils these days.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Not only that, but there's this, as well:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> https://www.newsarama.com/35070-star-trek-discovery-to-explo re-space-outs
>>>> >> id
>>>> >> e-r
>>>> >> oddenberry-s-box.html
>>>> >> (or http://tinyurl.com/ycczjbym)
>>>> >>
>>>> >> From the start of the article:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> QUOTE
>>>> >> Star Trek: Discovery will break the longstanding - but somewhat unspoken
>>>> >> - "Roddenberry's Box" rule of the Star Trek universe - a rule laid out
>>>> >> by Star Trek creator Gene Roddenberry which says that members of
>>>> >> Starfleet cannot be shown in deep conflict with each other or portrayed
>>>> >> in too negative a light.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> That rule - that Starfleet members must be ultimately upstanding - has
>>>> >> been stretched a few times in the series' 50 year history, especially in
>>>> >> recent films. But Discovery's showrunners Aaron Harberts and Gretchen J.
>>>> >> Berg say the show will explore conflict between members of Starfleet in
>>>> >> more depth than ever before.
>>>> >> END QUOTE
>>>> >>
>>>> >> So in addition to a lack of subtlety, we can expect a lack of discipline
>>>> >> and an overall attitude of "My opinion WILL be heard because my
>>>> >> self-esteem matters and I have a right to be heard. Even though I'm just
>>>> >> an ensign."
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I also like the "especially in recent films" bit in that quote, which is
>>>> >> a kind way of pointing out one of the many ways that Team Abrams has
>>>> >> *already* damaged this franchise.
>>>> >
>>>> > racist
>>>>
>>>> Heh. No, Abrams did his damage in the discipline and dumbing-down
>>>> departments. This latest fustercluck seems committed to doing its damage
>>>> in the "diversity" and "passion" departments. Honestly, I wonder if J.J.
>>>> is paying these idiots to provide a new target for the anger and
>>>> hostility of Trek purists. All I know is that each time someone new
>>>> comes along to "improve" Trek for a more "inclusive" audience, the worse
>>>> the show gets.
>>>
>>> But don't you think this whole thing is staging, so that they can cry
>>> 'racist' to *any* complaint about Star Trek STD?
>>
>> Are the people behind this thing competent or clever enough to pull off
>> something like that? Because they're clearly not competent or clever
>> enough to pull off a good Trek prequel. (I just saw a photo of a
>> transporter room, and these people are consistent, if nothing else.)
>
> I saw that that was out there and didn't even bother to look at it. How
> badly does *that* bode?
>
> Bear in mind that this is set in exactly the same year as THE CAGE, so
> we *know* what stuff should look like.
>

Another Reboot. That much is certain.

--
Wouter Valentijn www.j3v.net

"Be yourself no matter what they say"

Sting ("Englishman in New York")

liam=mail
Re: Star Trek: Discovery star replies to show's racist critics [message #394012 is a reply to message #394009] Mon, 26 June 2017 14:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
anim8rFSK is currently offline  anim8rFSK
Messages: 215
Registered: July 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
In article <59514b16$0$839$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>,
Wouter Valentijn <liam@valentijn.nu> wrote:

> Op 25-6-2017 om 19:36 schreef anim8rfsk:
>> In article <594feb74$0$731$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>,
>> Wouter Valentijn <liam@valentijn.nu> wrote:
>>
>>> Op 25-6-2017 om 18:28 schreef anim8rfsk:
>>>> In article <594f6a7e$0$739$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>,
>>>> Wouter Valentijn <liam@valentijn.nu> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Which is why I won't watch CBASS, who define 'diverse' as 'non-white'
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> > So, there are no 'white' characters on Discovery?
>>>> > Well, we'll see it this fall I guess. :-)
>>>>
>>>> I'm not saying that. I'm saying that's how CBASS uses the term, because
>>>> A) they're deeply stupid and 2) they're racist.
>>>>
>>>> And 'we' won't see this fall - I'm not going near this crapfest. I'm
>>>> especially not *paying* for it.
>>>
>>> I already have Netflix (NL edition). In recent months they've gained
>>> every Trek TV show, including TAS, and Discovery will be part of that
>>> line up.
>>
>> In America, you have to pay for a new service, CBS Access, to see Trek
>> and then limited reruns of other stuff, and it still has freaking
>> commercials unless you pay again for a higher level of service!
>
> Still commercials? :-(

Yep. Pay extra, watch it on your computer instead of your TV, still
commercials.

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Re: Star Trek: Discovery star replies to show's racist critics [message #394013 is a reply to message #394007] Mon, 26 June 2017 14:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wouter Valentijn is currently offline  Wouter Valentijn
Messages: 228
Registered: December 2012
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Senior Member
Op 26-6-2017 om 19:46 schreef Ubiquitous:
> starfist@gmail.invalid wrote:
>> On Thu, 22 Jun 2017 08:35:28 -0400, Ubiquitous wrote:
>
>>> Sonequa Martin-Green torpedos the trolls
>>
>> Hardly.
>>
>> I wonder if the reason women are forbidden to command a starship in
>> Krik's era has anything to do with the disaster that is brewing for
>> this series.
>
> Didn't we learn anything from Voyager?
>

Voyager had issues orbiting issues. The gender of Janeway was not part
of that. It was the writers. They failed.

--
Wouter Valentijn www.j3v.net

"Be yourself no matter what they say"

Sting ("Englishman in New York")

liam=mail
Re: Star Trek: Discovery star replies to show's racist critics [message #394014 is a reply to message #394006] Mon, 26 June 2017 14:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Obveeus is currently offline  Obveeus
Messages: 31
Registered: November 2012
Karma: 0
Member
On 6/26/2017 1:22 PM, anim8rfsk wrote:
> In article <oiregd$9tl$2@dont-email.me>,
> "Jim G." <jimgysin@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>> anim8rfsk sent the following on 06/24/2017 at 04:44 PM:
>>> In article <oimjvf$o5k$3@dont-email.me>,
>>> "Jim G." <jimgysin@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> anim8rfsk sent the following on 06/24/2017 at 03:16 PM:
>>>> > In article <oimd05$n7l$3@dont-email.me>,
>>>> > "Jim G." <jimgysin@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> Doc O'Leary sent the following on 06/24/2017 at 11:21 AM:
>>>> >>> Trek
>>>> >>> *used* to smartly address current social issues via allegory.
>>>> >>> Everything
>>>> >>> I read about this new show seems to indicate no such subtlety will
>>>> >>> exist.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Yep. Most writers -- especially the younger ones -- seem to prefer
>>>> >> anvils these days.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Not only that, but there's this, as well:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> https://www.newsarama.com/35070-star-trek-discovery-to-explo re-space-outs
>>>> >> id
>>>> >> e-r
>>>> >> oddenberry-s-box.html
>>>> >> (or http://tinyurl.com/ycczjbym)
>>>> >>
>>>> >> From the start of the article:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> QUOTE
>>>> >> Star Trek: Discovery will break the longstanding - but somewhat unspoken
>>>> >> - "Roddenberry's Box" rule of the Star Trek universe - a rule laid out
>>>> >> by Star Trek creator Gene Roddenberry which says that members of
>>>> >> Starfleet cannot be shown in deep conflict with each other or portrayed
>>>> >> in too negative a light.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> That rule - that Starfleet members must be ultimately upstanding - has
>>>> >> been stretched a few times in the series' 50 year history, especially in
>>>> >> recent films. But Discovery's showrunners Aaron Harberts and Gretchen J.
>>>> >> Berg say the show will explore conflict between members of Starfleet in
>>>> >> more depth than ever before.
>>>> >> END QUOTE
>>>> >>
>>>> >> So in addition to a lack of subtlety, we can expect a lack of discipline
>>>> >> and an overall attitude of "My opinion WILL be heard because my
>>>> >> self-esteem matters and I have a right to be heard. Even though I'm just
>>>> >> an ensign."
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I also like the "especially in recent films" bit in that quote, which is
>>>> >> a kind way of pointing out one of the many ways that Team Abrams has
>>>> >> *already* damaged this franchise.
>>>> >
>>>> > racist
>>>>
>>>> Heh. No, Abrams did his damage in the discipline and dumbing-down
>>>> departments. This latest fustercluck seems committed to doing its damage
>>>> in the "diversity" and "passion" departments. Honestly, I wonder if J.J.
>>>> is paying these idiots to provide a new target for the anger and
>>>> hostility of Trek purists. All I know is that each time someone new
>>>> comes along to "improve" Trek for a more "inclusive" audience, the worse
>>>> the show gets.
>>>
>>> But don't you think this whole thing is staging, so that they can cry
>>> 'racist' to *any* complaint about Star Trek STD?
>>
>> Are the people behind this thing competent or clever enough to pull off
>> something like that? Because they're clearly not competent or clever
>> enough to pull off a good Trek prequel. (I just saw a photo of a
>> transporter room, and these people are consistent, if nothing else.)
>
> I saw that that was out there and didn't even bother to look at it. How
> badly does *that* bode?
>
> Bear in mind that this is set in exactly the same year as THE CAGE, so
> we *know* what stuff should look like.

The transporter preview image that has been shown is from the older
ship, not the more current ship (Discovery).

If you are going to rag on the show as being incompetent for changing
the look of 'known things', how do you resolve the changes within the
original cast era (such as the Klingon's face/head)?
Re: Star Trek: Discovery star replies to show's racist critics [message #394020 is a reply to message #394013] Mon, 26 June 2017 14:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lance Corporal Hammer is currently offline  Lance Corporal Hammer
Messages: 35
Registered: July 2012
Karma: 0
Member
On Mon, 26 Jun 2017 20:03:25 +0200, Wouter Valentijn wrote:

> Voyager had issues orbiting issues. The gender of Janeway was not part
> of that. It was the writers. They failed.

And after re-watching the series a couple of years ago, having been
critical of it during its original airing, I will say that in
retrospect it was not that terrible. It was still Trek. It had its
really dumb moments and some insufferable characters, and the "Borg
Chick" thing is more transparent than Scotty's aluminum, but in the
end it was still Trek.

--
Hammer
Re: Star Trek: Discovery star replies to show's racist critics [message #394021 is a reply to message #394014] Mon, 26 June 2017 14:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wouter Valentijn is currently offline  Wouter Valentijn
Messages: 228
Registered: December 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Op 26-6-2017 om 20:16 schreef Obveeus:
>
>
> On 6/26/2017 1:22 PM, anim8rfsk wrote:
>> In article <oiregd$9tl$2@dont-email.me>,
>> "Jim G." <jimgysin@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> anim8rfsk sent the following on 06/24/2017 at 04:44 PM:
>>>> In article <oimjvf$o5k$3@dont-email.me>,
>>>> "Jim G." <jimgysin@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > anim8rfsk sent the following on 06/24/2017 at 03:16 PM:
>>>> >> In article <oimd05$n7l$3@dont-email.me>,
>>>> >> "Jim G." <jimgysin@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> Doc O'Leary sent the following on 06/24/2017 at 11:21 AM:
>>>> >>>> Trek
>>>> >>>> *used* to smartly address current social issues via allegory.
>>>> >>>> Everything
>>>> >>>> I read about this new show seems to indicate no such subtlety will
>>>> >>>> exist.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Yep. Most writers -- especially the younger ones -- seem to prefer
>>>> >>> anvils these days.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Not only that, but there's this, as well:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> https://www.newsarama.com/35070-star-trek-discovery-to-explo re-space-outs
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> id
>>>> >>> e-r
>>>> >>> oddenberry-s-box.html
>>>> >>> (or http://tinyurl.com/ycczjbym)
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> From the start of the article:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> QUOTE
>>>> >>> Star Trek: Discovery will break the longstanding - but somewhat
>>>> >>> unspoken
>>>> >>> - "Roddenberry's Box" rule of the Star Trek universe - a rule
>>>> >>> laid out
>>>> >>> by Star Trek creator Gene Roddenberry which says that members of
>>>> >>> Starfleet cannot be shown in deep conflict with each other or
>>>> >>> portrayed
>>>> >>> in too negative a light.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> That rule - that Starfleet members must be ultimately upstanding
>>>> >>> - has
>>>> >>> been stretched a few times in the series' 50 year history,
>>>> >>> especially in
>>>> >>> recent films. But Discovery's showrunners Aaron Harberts and
>>>> >>> Gretchen J.
>>>> >>> Berg say the show will explore conflict between members of
>>>> >>> Starfleet in
>>>> >>> more depth than ever before.
>>>> >>> END QUOTE
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> So in addition to a lack of subtlety, we can expect a lack of
>>>> >>> discipline
>>>> >>> and an overall attitude of "My opinion WILL be heard because my
>>>> >>> self-esteem matters and I have a right to be heard. Even though
>>>> >>> I'm just
>>>> >>> an ensign."
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> I also like the "especially in recent films" bit in that quote,
>>>> >>> which is
>>>> >>> a kind way of pointing out one of the many ways that Team Abrams has
>>>> >>> *already* damaged this franchise.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> racist
>>>> >
>>>> > Heh. No, Abrams did his damage in the discipline and dumbing-down
>>>> > departments. This latest fustercluck seems committed to doing its
>>>> > damage
>>>> > in the "diversity" and "passion" departments. Honestly, I wonder if
>>>> > J.J.
>>>> > is paying these idiots to provide a new target for the anger and
>>>> > hostility of Trek purists. All I know is that each time someone new
>>>> > comes along to "improve" Trek for a more "inclusive" audience, the
>>>> > worse
>>>> > the show gets.
>>>>
>>>> But don't you think this whole thing is staging, so that they can cry
>>>> 'racist' to *any* complaint about Star Trek STD?
>>>
>>> Are the people behind this thing competent or clever enough to pull off
>>> something like that? Because they're clearly not competent or clever
>>> enough to pull off a good Trek prequel. (I just saw a photo of a
>>> transporter room, and these people are consistent, if nothing else.)
>>
>> I saw that that was out there and didn't even bother to look at it. How
>> badly does *that* bode?
>>
>> Bear in mind that this is set in exactly the same year as THE CAGE, so
>> we *know* what stuff should look like.
>
> The transporter preview image that has been shown is from the older
> ship, not the more current ship (Discovery).
>
> If you are going to rag on the show as being incompetent for changing
> the look of 'known things', how do you resolve the changes within the
> original cast era (such as the Klingon's face/head)?


Enterprise addressed that in the Augment arc.

--
Wouter Valentijn www.j3v.net

"Be yourself no matter what they say"

Sting ("Englishman in New York")

liam=mail
Re: Star Trek: Discovery star replies to show's racist critics [message #394022 is a reply to message #394020] Mon, 26 June 2017 14:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wouter Valentijn is currently offline  Wouter Valentijn
Messages: 228
Registered: December 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Op 26-6-2017 om 20:46 schreef Lance Corporal Hammer Schultz:
> On Mon, 26 Jun 2017 20:03:25 +0200, Wouter Valentijn wrote:
>
>> Voyager had issues orbiting issues. The gender of Janeway was not part
>> of that. It was the writers. They failed.
>
> And after re-watching the series a couple of years ago, having been
> critical of it during its original airing, I will say that in
> retrospect it was not that terrible. It was still Trek. It had its
> really dumb moments and some insufferable characters, and the "Borg
> Chick" thing is more transparent than Scotty's aluminum, but in the
> end it was still Trek.
>

You are kinder than I am.

--
Wouter Valentijn www.j3v.net

"Be yourself no matter what they say"

Sting ("Englishman in New York")

liam=mail
Re: Star Trek: Discovery star replies to show's racist critics [message #394023 is a reply to message #394014] Mon, 26 June 2017 15:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dimensional Traveler is currently offline  Dimensional Traveler
Messages: 60
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Member
On 6/26/2017 11:16 AM, Obveeus wrote:
>
>
> On 6/26/2017 1:22 PM, anim8rfsk wrote:
>> In article <oiregd$9tl$2@dont-email.me>,
>> "Jim G." <jimgysin@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> anim8rfsk sent the following on 06/24/2017 at 04:44 PM:
>>>> In article <oimjvf$o5k$3@dont-email.me>,
>>>> "Jim G." <jimgysin@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > anim8rfsk sent the following on 06/24/2017 at 03:16 PM:
>>>> >> In article <oimd05$n7l$3@dont-email.me>,
>>>> >> "Jim G." <jimgysin@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> Doc O'Leary sent the following on 06/24/2017 at 11:21 AM:
>>>> >>>> Trek
>>>> >>>> *used* to smartly address current social issues via allegory.
>>>> >>>> Everything
>>>> >>>> I read about this new show seems to indicate no such subtlety will
>>>> >>>> exist.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Yep. Most writers -- especially the younger ones -- seem to prefer
>>>> >>> anvils these days.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Not only that, but there's this, as well:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> https://www.newsarama.com/35070-star-trek-discovery-to-explo re-space-outs
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> id
>>>> >>> e-r
>>>> >>> oddenberry-s-box.html
>>>> >>> (or http://tinyurl.com/ycczjbym)
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> From the start of the article:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> QUOTE
>>>> >>> Star Trek: Discovery will break the longstanding - but somewhat
>>>> >>> unspoken
>>>> >>> - "Roddenberry's Box" rule of the Star Trek universe - a rule
>>>> >>> laid out
>>>> >>> by Star Trek creator Gene Roddenberry which says that members of
>>>> >>> Starfleet cannot be shown in deep conflict with each other or
>>>> >>> portrayed
>>>> >>> in too negative a light.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> That rule - that Starfleet members must be ultimately upstanding
>>>> >>> - has
>>>> >>> been stretched a few times in the series' 50 year history,
>>>> >>> especially in
>>>> >>> recent films. But Discovery's showrunners Aaron Harberts and
>>>> >>> Gretchen J.
>>>> >>> Berg say the show will explore conflict between members of
>>>> >>> Starfleet in
>>>> >>> more depth than ever before.
>>>> >>> END QUOTE
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> So in addition to a lack of subtlety, we can expect a lack of
>>>> >>> discipline
>>>> >>> and an overall attitude of "My opinion WILL be heard because my
>>>> >>> self-esteem matters and I have a right to be heard. Even though
>>>> >>> I'm just
>>>> >>> an ensign."
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> I also like the "especially in recent films" bit in that quote,
>>>> >>> which is
>>>> >>> a kind way of pointing out one of the many ways that Team Abrams has
>>>> >>> *already* damaged this franchise.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> racist
>>>> >
>>>> > Heh. No, Abrams did his damage in the discipline and dumbing-down
>>>> > departments. This latest fustercluck seems committed to doing its
>>>> > damage
>>>> > in the "diversity" and "passion" departments. Honestly, I wonder if
>>>> > J.J.
>>>> > is paying these idiots to provide a new target for the anger and
>>>> > hostility of Trek purists. All I know is that each time someone new
>>>> > comes along to "improve" Trek for a more "inclusive" audience, the
>>>> > worse
>>>> > the show gets.
>>>>
>>>> But don't you think this whole thing is staging, so that they can cry
>>>> 'racist' to *any* complaint about Star Trek STD?
>>>
>>> Are the people behind this thing competent or clever enough to pull off
>>> something like that? Because they're clearly not competent or clever
>>> enough to pull off a good Trek prequel. (I just saw a photo of a
>>> transporter room, and these people are consistent, if nothing else.)
>>
>> I saw that that was out there and didn't even bother to look at it. How
>> badly does *that* bode?
>>
>> Bear in mind that this is set in exactly the same year as THE CAGE, so
>> we *know* what stuff should look like.
>
> The transporter preview image that has been shown is from the older
> ship, not the more current ship (Discovery).
>
> If you are going to rag on the show as being incompetent for changing
> the look of 'known things', how do you resolve the changes within the
> original cast era (such as the Klingon's face/head)?

That's one of the things we're complaining about!

--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
Re: Star Trek: Discovery star replies to show's racist critics [message #394024 is a reply to message #394006] Mon, 26 June 2017 15:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jim G. is currently offline  Jim G.
Messages: 52
Registered: August 2011
Karma: 0
Member
anim8rfsk sent the following on 06/26/2017 at 12:22 PM:
> In article <oiregd$9tl$2@dont-email.me>,
> "Jim G." <jimgysin@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>> anim8rfsk sent the following on 06/24/2017 at 04:44 PM:
>>> In article <oimjvf$o5k$3@dont-email.me>,
>>> "Jim G." <jimgysin@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Heh. No, Abrams did his damage in the discipline and dumbing-down
>>>> departments. This latest fustercluck seems committed to doing its damage
>>>> in the "diversity" and "passion" departments. Honestly, I wonder if J.J.
>>>> is paying these idiots to provide a new target for the anger and
>>>> hostility of Trek purists. All I know is that each time someone new
>>>> comes along to "improve" Trek for a more "inclusive" audience, the worse
>>>> the show gets.
>>>
>>> But don't you think this whole thing is staging, so that they can cry
>>> 'racist' to *any* complaint about Star Trek STD?
>>
>> Are the people behind this thing competent or clever enough to pull off
>> something like that? Because they're clearly not competent or clever
>> enough to pull off a good Trek prequel. (I just saw a photo of a
>> transporter room, and these people are consistent, if nothing else.)
>
> I saw that that was out there and didn't even bother to look at it. How
> badly does *that* bode?
>
> Bear in mind that this is set in exactly the same year as THE CAGE, so
> we *know* what stuff should look like.

The entire mindset of people who do this sort of "reimagining" seems to
be something along the lines of: "We know that ours will be better
because we're making it all different!"

--
Jim G. | A fan of the good and the bad, but not the mediocre
“This is where you end up when your parents don't tell you they love
you.” – Clive Babineaux, iZOMBIE
Re: Star Trek: Discovery star replies to show's racist critics [message #394025 is a reply to message #394014] Mon, 26 June 2017 15:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jim G. is currently offline  Jim G.
Messages: 52
Registered: August 2011
Karma: 0
Member
Obveeus sent the following on 06/26/2017 at 01:16 PM:>
> On 6/26/2017 1:22 PM, anim8rfsk wrote:
>> In article <oiregd$9tl$2@dont-email.me>,
>> "Jim G." <jimgysin@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> anim8rfsk sent the following on 06/24/2017 at 04:44 PM:
>>>> In article <oimjvf$o5k$3@dont-email.me>,
>>>> "Jim G." <jimgysin@geemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But don't you think this whole thing is staging, so that they can cry
>>>> 'racist' to *any* complaint about Star Trek STD?
>>>
>>> Are the people behind this thing competent or clever enough to pull off
>>> something like that? Because they're clearly not competent or clever
>>> enough to pull off a good Trek prequel. (I just saw a photo of a
>>> transporter room, and these people are consistent, if nothing else.)
>>
>> I saw that that was out there and didn't even bother to look at it. How
>> badly does *that* bode?
>>
>> Bear in mind that this is set in exactly the same year as THE CAGE, so
>> we *know* what stuff should look like.
>
> The transporter preview image that has been shown is from the older
> ship, not the more current ship (Discovery).

Do you have a cite for that? Because everything that I saw when this
came out made it clear that it was unknown if the image was of the older
ship or the newer one.

> If you are going to rag on the show as being incompetent for changing
> the look of 'known things', how do you resolve the changes within the
> original cast era (such as the Klingon's face/head)?

That was stupid, too, and it was another good example of people thinking
that they're being creative or clever when they make entirely
unnecessary changes to what's already been established.

--
Jim G. | A fan of the good and the bad, but not the mediocre
“This is where you end up when your parents don't tell you they love
you.” – Clive Babineaux, iZOMBIE
Re: Star Trek: Discovery star replies to show's racist critics [message #394026 is a reply to message #394010] Mon, 26 June 2017 15:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dimensional Traveler is currently offline  Dimensional Traveler
Messages: 60
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Member
On 6/26/2017 10:57 AM, Ubiquitous wrote:
> In article <oimfgv$uf8$1@dont-email.me>, dtravel@sonic.net wrote:
>> On 6/24/2017 12:06 PM, Jim G. wrote:
>
>>> Yep. Most writers -- especially the younger ones -- seem to prefer
>>> anvils these days.
>>>
>>> Not only that, but there's this, as well:
>>>
>>> https://www.newsarama.com/35070-star-trek-discovery-to-explo re-space-outside-roddenberry-s-box.html
>>>
>>> (or http://tinyurl.com/ycczjbym)
>>>
>>> From the start of the article:
>>>
>>> Star Trek: Discovery will break the longstanding - but somewhat
>>> unspoken - "Roddenberry's Box" rule of the Star Trek universe - a
>>> rule laid out by Star Trek creator Gene Roddenberry which says
>>> that members of Starfleet cannot be shown in deep conflict with
>>> each other or portrayed in too negative a light.
>>>
>>> That rule - that Starfleet members must be ultimately upstanding - has
>>> been stretched a few times in the series' 50 year history, especially
>>> in recent films. But Discovery's showrunners Aaron Harberts and
>>> Gretchen J. Berg say the show will explore conflict between members
>>> of Starfleet in more depth than ever before.
>>>
>>> So in addition to a lack of subtlety, we can expect a lack of discipline
>>> and an overall attitude of "My opinion WILL be heard because my
>>> self-esteem matters and I have a right to be heard. Even though I'm just
>>> an ensign."
>>>
>>> I also like the "especially in recent films" bit in that quote, which is
>>> a kind way of pointing out one of the many ways that Team Abrams has
>>> *already* damaged this franchise.
>>>
>> Don't tempt me to post my review of Star Dreck again where I point out
>> that the crew of Abrahm's Enterprise had less discipline than a Somali
>> pirate boat.
>
> Please feel free to do it. :-)
>
Silly rabbit. Just remember, you asked for it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You know, one of the differences in feel between TOS and both TNG and
the 2009 re-boot is in how they address discipline and chain of command.
TOS was written by people who had some idea of what the military was
really like, many of them having served themselves. Yes, they bend
things a bit for story purposes and the limits of filming a TV show, but
their starting point was a working military. Characters stay at their
posts. Kirk didn't tell his subordinates how to do a task, he just said
"do it". Every time he sits down there's a yeoman handing him a report
to read and sign. How often did we see Picard doing paperwork?

With the re-boot movie they display a level of military discipline that
Somali pirates would laugh at. Civilian cargo and fishing vessels have
better discipline than the 2009 version Starfleet! In the middle of an
action while at General Quarters a bridge officer leaves his post,
without even telling anyone let alone asking permission or arranging a
replacement, to go interfere with a superior officer doing their job in
a different part of the ship! (Literally running thru the ship yelling
"I can do that!"?!?!?!) One of the duties of an executive officer is to
play Devil's Advocate for his CO, presenting alternatives and pointing
out potential problems with the CO's plans. Its both to help his own
training and to serve as a necessary sounding board for his CO. In the
re-boot, when Spock is in command his reaction to his exec (Kirk)
disagreeing is to literally throw him off the ship! And do you really
want me to go in to the whole idea of a cadet who hasn't even graduated
being given command of a major ship ahead of literally thousands of more
senior, more experienced officers? All of which would be horrid whether
it was a Trek movie or some new setting.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The 2009 movie crew had a level of discipline that makes Somali pirates look
like elite special forces. While the original crew was the trained,
disciplined crew of a military ship. The original Kirk wouldn't have
had to worry about the original Chekov suddenly leaving his station on
the bridge, during a red alert, without even informing anyone let alone
requesting permission, to run thru the ship shouting "I can do that! I
can do that!" so he can push a superior officer away from their station
and interfere with the job they were doing.

The original Kirk may have been the youngest in Starfleet to ever get
command of a Starship, but he did it by graduating from the academy and
working his way up the ranks. He _didn't_ go directly from "suspended
for cheating" to Captain, jumping half-a-dozen ranks and thousands of
superiors, because some now dead ex-captain happened to know his father
and had "a good feeling" about him.

The original Scotty was an experienced, calm, engineer who could be
depended on no matter how bad the situation got. The "new" Scotty's
reaction to seeing two officers having a fist fight on the bridge is
"Oh, I like this ship. Its exciting!" *retch*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Abrams took characters I liked and respected and turned them into
asshats that I wouldn't share public transit with while putting them in
a universe that made no sense. TOS may have simply retold old fables
and morality tales but at least they were decent stories told by decent
writers. Abrams doesn't care about story except as an excuse for
expensive FX and "Wouldn't It Be Cool" shots.

J J Abrams basically stood over the dying body of 'Star Trek' telling
fans "Hey, look at me, I'm so popular that I can do whatever I want to
your beloved show!" while he gave fans the finger with one hand and
masturbated with the other.


--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
Re: Star Trek: Discovery star replies to show's racist critics [message #394027 is a reply to message #394013] Mon, 26 June 2017 15:21 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Ubiquitous is currently offline  Ubiquitous
Messages: 77
Registered: July 2012
Karma: 0
Member
liam@valentijn.nu wrote:
> Op 26-6-2017 om 19:46 schreef Ubiquitous:
>> starfist@gmail.invalid wrote:
>>> On Thu, 22 Jun 2017 08:35:28 -0400, Ubiquitous wrote:

>>>> Sonequa Martin-Green torpedos the trolls
>>>
>>> Hardly.
>>>
>>> I wonder if the reason women are forbidden to command a starship in
>>> Krik's era has anything to do with the disaster that is brewing for
>>> this series.
>>
>> Didn't we learn anything from Voyager?
>
> Voyager had issues orbiting issues. The gender of Janeway was not part
> of that. It was the writers. They failed.

If memory serves, they made a big deal about having a female captain.

--
Dems & the media want Trump to be more like Obama, but then he'd
have to audit liberals & wire tap reporters' phones.
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